001Hello Ashlanders. There's a new podcast in town. The Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people, for the people, and by the people. It's an opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms. It takes place right here at WACA TV in the information parlor. Today's conversation is co-hosted by Kate Jersik and Julie Nardone. And before we get into today's absolutely super duper ripping topics, uh Kate, do you want to tell us about uh Upbeat Corner? >> Yeah. And I also do want to remind and introduce our honorary co-host, Jim Hannah. >> Jim, I am sorry. >> So, the Bark Park in Ashland should be opening in early June. And I think it's an exciting amenity addition to Ashland. And even better, I think, is that this was a citizen idea that
002>> it like a lot of things, it just takes time, right? So citizen group for years and to get it across the finish line there was a partnership with town government. >> So exciting news >> and just a brief I googled first dog park and it was in 1863 in Germany and it was called uh who didn't plots and then the first one in the United States was in Berkeley California in 1978 so almost over a hundred years later. >> Okay. So the inspirational quote, do you want to read that and then I'll talk about the next line? >> I would love to from Benjamin Franklin. It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. And I think that fits with overall Bad Girls Guide to Town Government philosophy. And again honoring Jim
003Hannah that we sometimes if you're questioning you um there's a tendency to make that negative by some people. um both citizens, both government people and we've learned that we can ignore that. Ben Franklin said it's okay. >> Yeah, that is such a classic observation that if you're not agreeing with the powers that be, you're negative. >> Okay, so as everyone knows who's been listening to this, I watch a ton of films. So this uh last week I watched Enemy of the People and it's got Steve McQuain, who I totally love. It's a little bit of a different role for him, but it's still the same kind of role. He plays Dr. Stockman in in a in a small town that has these um they're like spas. I think they're almost like medicinal spas. So, the
004people come there, they dip in the spas, and they feel better. So, he had a hunch and he discovered that the spas were actually being contaminated by a tannery beyond them. So he told everybody, "We can't keep doing this. These people are going to be hurt by this toxic stuff in the water." I guess it was a bacteria. And at first they were with him, but then they turned on him and they started calling him an enemy of the people. And his brother was the mayor who was upset because it was going to hurt the economic development aspect of the town. So they ended up, you know, throwing rocks through his house and everything. But he decided in the end to stay. They were going to leave his family and they just decided to stay
005and face it. And it's just if you've ever seen Aaron Brockovich or Silk, it's just that kind of movie with someone standing up for doing the right thing. uh which leads into I think very nicely this week's uh topics which revolve around responsible government defining priorities reintroducing the idea of public service understanding bond ratings and questioning contradictory messages there's another one but I don't think we're going to get to it so defining priorities uh we're handed a budget we don't really have a say in it all And wouldn't it be better to somehow have a process where the people are included and say, "Well, maybe I want that or maybe I want this." >> Well, I think that's right. Like Framingham put that on the ballot to have a citizens component for budgeting. And I
006really actually think it's kind of surprising if you are a public servant that you have to get somehow the public. Now, I know we would people will say, well, the select board represents us and school committee represents us, but that ultimately it's not practical in a town of our size to have 18,000 people. So, you you do have to do better and reach out to the public. >> Yeah. And so I I've been noticing with I've been going to visit some other town Facebook pages um and they've not all of them but a lot of them have been uh voting down their overrides. But it's not it's what they're saying after that is just so related to this. Um, it's they're all saying, "Hey, our town manager reports to the select board. The select board
007doesn't return to the town manager." Or, "Why aren't we following our charter?" Or, "How did things pass how did things pass town meeting and fail at the at the ballot when people have gotten up and said, "You're not listening to us." So, there definitely seems to be, and we talked about this, I don't know what month it was, the listening, an absolute listening problem. Oh, and while I'm at it, you know, we were supposed to have uh a listening tour about the ride, and there were two public forums for people to get up and speak. I went to the first one. The second one was supposed to be in April. And I'm waiting for it, and I'm waiting for it, and I wouldn't say anything. So then I had to do a couple of emails
008and I found out it had been cancelled. So I mean this whole time they were saying, you know, they did everything without us listening to us and then promised us a listen and then cancel a listen. So I I I don't know. I think it's just horrible. What do you think? Well, I think the defining priorities um when I haven't seen I've seen positions being added. In fact, with this override, I believe we're adding more positions. It it doesn't make it really a credible argument about budget. And I think as a community, we should be able to have broader discussions about if we want to add positions if we think we don't have enough money already to run the government. And I think there's a lot of priorities that maybe really need to be looked
009into. Um other another town I I thought someone did a great job writing about and it was really kind of heartfelt saying I I I admit I wasn't really paying attention but clearly had a suggestions of five things to look at before you really get down the road of saying I have to cut a firefighter. And it was something like non-essential discretionary spending, travel, conferences, training, consultation not tied to critical operations. Number one, we've been spending money on those things, right? I think you have some public records on those. >> Do you want me to say that? Okay. I think so. >> Back on the subject of listening, uh during this override, they had all these meetings where they weren't listening to anybody, but there was a promise that they would eventually start listening. So,
010there were two uh public override forums scheduled. I went to the first one. They said there'd be another one in April, and I'm waiting. I'm waiting. And then I find out that it's been cancelled. And I'm like, really? You're canceling the public forum on the override and apparently they've been taking them into the offline somewhere? I don't know. I I just think that's problem. Um, so yeah, we were talking about uh training and >> so some of the things I imagine that would come out if we got to sit down as a community, right? And someone this is another town did a very thoughtful of like five things to look at before you seriously get into >> like cutting someone's job because I I think all of us would not want that. But we also
011have to realize budgets have to work. Like >> if you aren't making enough money, do you add another streaming service at your house? >> Mhm. I don't. >> Right. So, first the first cut she was saying is non-essential and discretionary spending such as travel conferences, training, consultation not tied to critical oper operations. So, I think you have some examples, right? >> I do. I did a public records request on the uh town manager's budget because it's one I've never looked at and it's one of the large it's it's a large one. So I noticed um that it was in March we paid $5,600 for the College of Charleston Athenia webinar. And yes he it's I saw it right on the website. he went to that. And I guess my question is if we're being told
012we don't have any money, I'm I'm confused why we would prioritize something >> adding a streaming service to your household budget when you can't afford it. Yeah. And then I also saw we they keep talking about this um staffing survey and what I see in here is two charges. One for 15,000 in 2024 and then one a couple of month a year later actually it's a year later for 52,000. That's what what's that together? 68 $67,000 for a staffing survey that we we still don't have and it seems like the selectman can't get it. So that's two examples right there. And I mean I don't know it doesn't seem like belt tightening to me. >> It doesn't seem like belt tightening and and I think there's probably some value in comparing us to other communities,
013but it's difficult, right? Because Ashland was a solidly working-class community and then a lot of new people brought our wealth dramatically up. We found out recently that were actually lower, right? >> Getting poorer. >> Yeah. And and so those are factors that how do you compare that with another town? Right. We we have a certain budget to work with and I feel like that should be the number one priority is figure out how to work with that budget. >> Yeah. I mean, we've been, I want to call it, upscaling the salaries to towns around us, giving some rather large raises on top of you'll get like a 3.5 and then 16,000 or 8,000 or 5,000 or whatever it is. And again, I I don't know why these decisions are being made if we're being told
014we need to tighten our belts. That seems like the absolute opposite. >> Well, and I think that If you're ready to move on, roll into the topic uh reintroducing the idea of public service. >> Yes, I have an example. I we do these uh triplea bonds, which is actually the next topic, but I was just trying to get an idea of what we pay for it. And I tried for four days, different times of the day, uh to get including today, uh to get in touch with the accounting department and no one answered the phone and then I was told that one of the people was working remotely, but there are two of them. So, I I guess my problem is you're you're like a public-f facing uh organization and here I am trying to
015get this information and I can't even get anyone to pick up the phone, you know. Then I was told, oh, just email. But I actually had emailed about a different topic that I didn't get response from. And I know people tell me that they can't they email or whatever and they they don't hear from people. So, How do we how do we fix that? >> So I think it is an honorable vocation and I think that people mostly in in public service I have high regard for do their job in service. I think where I have a difference is how did the salaries get to be market rate meaning market like compared with private sector yet the benefits are beyond. And I feel like on these larger budget to be sustainable, we have to have
016discussions like maybe you get to choose. I get a market rate salary or and I and I do a 401k like the market. >> Yeah. >> Or I choose to get that lower salary in the security of pensions and benefits. >> Yeah. I mean, there's definitely you really cannot have private sector salaries and public sector benefits because I think that's at the root of a lot of these uh alleged problems that towns are having. They're just really out of control and way off topic of what they're supposed to be doing. Um, I sometimes too, I don't know, maybe it's just me, maybe it's because I ask a lot of questions, but not all the time. Some sometimes it's awesome, but that I'm that we're somehow a pain. And it's like, you know, I think if
017you want to work with the public, you got to learn to love the public, right? or like them or respect I don't know. So, I feel like at at town hall that we are, but I feel like that there might be it it might tie back into that, you know, our our we're saying our first responsibility is to question authority, but that does come when you do question. It's it's not about there's no value judgment. I want information, >> but it's perceived as >> some kind of attack or threat, right? Negative. So, right. >> Exactly. So, that >> that would be nice to have a conversation with town hall about that perspective, but is >> as far as like um worth, ethic, and value, I I I feel like that is great. And it I
018think the shift lies in that how you perceive the questioning, right? It's no one's saying you're doing a bad job. We're it's information, right? And the website would be would be um a good place to make it easier to get information, put more on the website, which means the public would not have to ask as much, >> right? Yeah. I mean, I've had this conversation with staff about you can make your jobs easier if we're just put the information on the website so people don't have to ask. And I also want to talk about this notion of curiosity because I mean I was an extraordinarily curious child as a lot of child are and I managed to take mine with me which I think's good and I think the whole notion of education is about
019cultivating curiosity but then I feel like when I'm curious it is not not wellreceived. So I feel like and that's actually one our other topics questioning contradictory messages that we're not there yet but it's like you say education is important and then people exhibit those things and then they're basically told shut up and sit down. So I think we need to work on that and uh we haven't been doing that. Um, see these these topics are all starting. No, they're all like related to each other. So, let's move on to the next one and we'll just keep going. So, this one's like super duper exciting. It's called understanding bond ratings because you hear a lot of towns, especially our town, we got a AAA bond rating. It means everything's great. Finances are awesome. Uh, it's
020the world's just incredible because of this rating. So, um I there is a group called I've called uh Strong Town. It's called Strong Towns >> and uh I found this really amazing article and we've both read it and it's called bond ratings are for investors not taxpayers. I think that's like the number one thing to remember and >> I think it's >> fine that we publicize wherea I' I've noticed that Ashlin it could be almost copy paste from any town they all publicize it well >> look at what we did one thing that's interesting is the actual rating um metric yeah >> I I have found published for other towns I found an old one on national website but the most current I >> and Those those are pretty telling, right? It's only three or
021four pages, but you know, it it it does um maybe if you read between the lines, doesn't say everything's perfectly rosy either. So, I that goes back with the curiosity. There's nothing wrong with us touting that we have a AAA bond rating. I think there is saying like that's in danger over if if we don't tax ourselves more. That's the difference, right? >> Right. Because we we have a surplus every year. They say we have a deficit, but we actually have a surplus. And it's, you know, anywhere from 1.5 million to 2.5 million. And as the budget gets bigger, it gets bigger. And I brought this up at one of these early override meetings and I was told, well, we do have a surplus, but we have to keep at it for the bond rating.
022So in my mind that's like like nonsensical. Um >> well Julie and then and then just to talk real numbers I mean we actually >> when you talk OPE that's like >> high 4850 over $50 million. We are not in >> great shape financially right. So, so you're taking a slice of it to to um we say we're in good shape and we get this bond rating. >> Mhm. >> AAA and we have a surplus, but we really don't. I mean, as a town there's some serious issues, right, to look at. >> Yeah. I And what was interesting about the uh Can I see this? Yeah. This >> this is the letter. It's called the ratings direct and it was about Ashland. It said that we had a high debt load per capita. >> Yeah.
023>> And I mean above and beyond this override there's like 14 15 million of projects they want and if you read in here they you know they started taking roofs I don't know maybe around 2014 those used to be paid for out of the out of the or um operating budget. those became debt exclusions and even those feasibility studies. So, we've been taking on saying we haven't been raising taxes is ludicrous because we've been taking on more in these debt exclusions. Um, and two, I went uh I went to the uh state DR website. You can see all the towns and their ratings. Um, 75 towns have AAA. uh 89 towns have double A+ and then 43 towns have double A. So I I added that up. It's like two 206 out of towns are
024in the A's. So that's isn't that more than half 206 into 351. >> That's more than half of the towns. >> Well, and this is an example of more information's better. Or if you if you say it's going to cost us more in bond like put the real put some real facts. What are we bonding and how much is it going to cost? >> Yeah. >> So if it if we drop to a what would make us drop to a double A, right? I don't know. And if we did what what is the interest rate difference? >> Yes. >> Um and again think this is very clear. This is for investors not taxpayers not residents. >> Exactly. The whole purpose of the AAA bond profile is are you going to pay the investors back? It
025doesn't say anything about us, our quality of life or none of that. It's totally reduced to can you pay it back? Um and uh this uh segus into the next one. Well, it's related. questioning contradictory messages. So, and I think we talked about this a little bit last time. We have been hearing non-stop, we need new growth, we need new growth, we need new growth. Uh, you have been I it's on one of these papers. Um, we've been embracing slow growth or anti-growth, which I don't know how anyone can say that we're one of the most densest towns in Metro West. Um, so then we were told more recently, well, you need an override because there's been so much growth that they they needed for the services. Okay. You told us that we didn't have
026growth. Then you told us we needed growth for your budget. Now we're told you need an override because the growth is taxing the budget. Um did you want to say something before I read this? >> Well the a certain amount of residents have been for decades mentioning that that the try so >> services. Yeah. >> So the goal would be to increase commercial who does not use as much in services as residential. Yeah. >> And we've talked about this community. In fact, that was part of having an economic development um person. But I don't think we've been provided data to say does that work and have we done and I I don't know if we've had any are there any other ideas that we're missing about getting more commercial, right? like probably because um I
027haven't seen I don't know someone mentioned like a community had their own their own um fiber optic network that then they could charge other people to use. Now I that maybe that's not practical in action. I'm just throwing out >> real examples that other communities have used to generate revenue. So, >> and we're always talking about generating our revenue instead of looking at I mean I believe we're um we get the budget and we just add on the new stuff which means all these stratified it's like stratified layers of things that you might not be doing anymore but they're still in there. Um can I also I think this goes under contradictory >> uh messages saying you know we're we're bound by two and a half and all these I think the latest message was
028like ke tech and insurance and one other thing you know eats up a huge portion of that but that I have not seen anything that counts for we also have increased assessment so our budget has been going up more than two and a half% and I I would just feel like having that real information would be super helpful. It feels like I I'm not sure why we get partial and I I think it's probably just a blind spot of people again doing their best to say I need more money, >> but it isn't your best when you have partial information and I don't think it's your best when you're actually adding positions, but >> not really many many ways I think could be if you talk to the community belt tightening. Yeah, I I think
029you've really hit on something that's important. As far as I'm concerned, all I've been given is a plate of abstractions. I don't know what's on this plate. I don't know what I'm supposed to be eating. Is it meat? Is it vegetables? Is it is it lettuce? I mean, I don't know because everything's an abstraction. And I want to talk about Keefe because we've been told there was a graph with four little thingies on it, little uh graphics on the graphic. And one of them was the ke there's it's this year it's 1 I don't know it it was it was 378 or 380,000 more than last year and Oh my god. So I went back I I just happened to have this stuff in my drawer and I was going through some stuff and I
030pulled something out and I was like it ke was 1.7 million in 2014. This current amount is less than that. So but that's already been baked into the budget back in 2014. So I think to say that this kee and making weird comments about it like oh we should cut them and give the money to the rep the other schools. I don't get it. But it's like we're being told that this is such a big thing when it's already in the budget and if you look at the budget they're inter in included debt which is inside and not debt excluded that came down I think it was 330,000 340,000. So we're not being told that the budget came actually down. It's in those parentheses. Um, so this whole thing about kee tech is just this
031weird windy stuff blowing around. It just doesn't even mean anything. >> So, and I think that goes along with that. I think mentioned it before, partial information like I that there was a budget um kind of booklet published saying it was independent and it was published by the town manager which I would not call independent. Now, I agree there was citations for independent data in the report. Yeah. >> But I I don't think most people would call a report by the town manager independent. Do you? >> And I don't. Um, I I just think like for the reason we started this show, we basically get one perspective and we're told this is the gospel truth and anyone who doesn't uh embrace this as the gospel truth is uh just kidding themselves. And that's really not
032what democracy is all about. It's about I think we have a duty to be questioning. Your civic duty is to question your government for yourself, for everyone else, and get everybody engaged. There's one thing I want to read here. So, uh, uh, based on what we were just talking, uh, our manager, uh, writes a lot of articles about his experience as a manager. And there was one about Ashland's AAA rating. How strategic financial management continues to earn S&P's highest confidence despite recent challenges. So I'm reading through it and it's all about how great the trip was. But then I get to this part and it's it's called number three, create a narrative. Um, this is a lesson I learned from Lynch and Moses and it's the key focus of our reading calls. So, first of
033all, it sounds like they're having calls and I don't even know they're having calls, but anyways, I'm just going to read this as a specific example talking about a 2 million deficit. And this was in September 2025 after the talk for the override started like eight months earlier. As for example, talking about a 2 million deficit seems a lot less scary when you potentially have over four million in additional tax revenue coming from new developments, including 340B projects. And that was one of the story lines of our most recent call. Okay, so we are being told we need an override because we don't have enough new growth when right here it says we have potentially 4 million. They're only putting 900,000 in the budget and I've a couple of people not only just me other
034people have gotten up and said we've got these apartment buildings all over the town coming in that have been approved. So, I'm I'm really to me this is the most glaring contradictory message. We've got apartments. We've seen them. We know they're coming, but we're being told we need an override. So, are we supposed to do an override and then all of a sudden, whoops, uh there's another two, three million. So, then it's not like we're going to be a it's be really hard to go back and get an underride. Um, so, oops, sorry. Oh, I can't always turn that thing off. All right. So, uh, is there anything you want to say? We're we're we're kind of at the end of our our time here. Uh, is there anything else you want to add? >>
035No, I'm sticking with Ben Franklin, first responsibility to question authority, and we'll keep that up and asking residents to do the same. >> Yes. Uh, and we want to thank everyone that listens to the podcast and uh, we had a very nice article in the local pages on page 17 and the painting was in there. And if anyone wants to contact us, we're at badg girls.com. So, we will see you in a month. Thank you. Go.