001Hello Ashlanders. There's a new podcast in town. The Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people by the people and for the people. An opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms. and it happens right here in the information parlor at WACA TV in Ashland. Uh before we get into today's absolutely riveting topics, uh we are going to start where we usually start um with upbeat corner. >> Oh, thank you Julie. I'd like to talk about um briefly the Ashlin Historical Society programs. Now I full disclosure I was on the board and I am still a member. I'm obviously a proud member that there's free educational um topics October through April 2 p.m. on Sundays. There sometimes very local history uh by maybe a member of the society or someone in
002the community that speaks about that will be next month about our cemetery. It might be someone who has a history of historical performances and bringing in last month. Uh the one this last week we had a full house. Um but it's free and we'd love to have people come and enjoy that. Learn about local history, learn about the house. Um and I think it's a you know good way to bring together people that have share that commonality of enjoying history. >> Yeah. And if you're new in town, you should check out the Ocean House because it's got a lot of great uh examples of Ashland's history. I've seen that's where I first stumbled on history at play where she just does some amazing and I saw one's coming up on April 12th and it's a
003Wildwood the Wildwood. >> Yeah. So that'll be local historians giving us a talk about that. And while we're on local history, just want to make sure we mention that we We hope, we think Jim Hannah is still here as a co-host in spirit, honoring we that we're trying to honor his uh his caring about standing up for things you believe in and even if it isn't what maybe you're hearing from town hall kind of things. >> Yeah. Yep. Thank you, Jen. Um, okay. So I'm going to talk about the umbrella topic today will be democracies need checks and balances to sur to thrive and survive and should I do the quote? >> Sure. >> Okay. So, uh, Kate, do you want to read one or both of these quotes and then we'll talk about >>
004So, we like to have references to some quotes and historical things and a couple that we found on checks and balances. The American system of checks and balances is only as strong as the leaders who have the character and courage to enforce them. From near a tandem, next one's interesting. It's actually from our James Madison, fourth president of the United States. It may be a reflection on human nature that such devices meaning checks and balances should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself? But the greatest of all reflections of human nature. If men were angels, no government would be necessary. And I think those both reinforce that we should stand, ask for, and demand strong checks and balances. >> Yes. And I don't know. Uh I I kind of
005feel like we don't really have any checks and balances. Um but so you have the federal government with the executive judicial and legislative. But on the um local level, you have executive which would be the select board and the town I don't know the the government the select board and probably the staff. And then you have the legislative which is the people who come to town meeting. And I found this uh for the filming portion. I found this um organizational chart in the town of Medway and they say um well it says citizens of Medway but we might call it residents residents of Ashland. I would love to see this. I've been trying to get an updated organizational chart for a couple of months now. Um, but when I saw this, it just really reinforced
006to me that in that town anyways, the people are really seen at the top of the ORC chart. Um, you would you might not think of that when you observe how some of our meetings are run. Kate, do you wanna >> Well, I do think this is a great because if you have that role as a legislature and part of the government and you know, we're at the top of that, we do have responsibilities to speak up, to show up, to question, to understand. So, we have to fulfill our part of that as residents as well. I think it's it's >> we can say that and that's a great starting point, but if we never act on it, that could be a problem. And I think some of your other topics show how we might
007have a might make it difficult for us to act on that though. >> Okay, that sounds great. All right, so I just just because we're into all things cultural and historical here, I watched well I've seen it before and it just happened to be on uh TCM and I watched uh Mr. Smith goes to Washington and it's a Frank C movie and it stars Jean Arthur who's fabulous and James Stewart and then um Claude Reigns if you're into some of the horror movies. He was in a lot of horror movies. Um so it's it it's just this really awesome film about uh one of the senators dies. So then the governor of that state gets to sense somebody in. So there was some corruption going on. So they're trying to find someone who wouldn't cause
008any problems. So the kids actually in the town said, "You should pick Jefferson Smith because he was head of the boy rangers and he would take they were all talking about nature and everything." Um, so, uh, he appointed him and then he got there and he was walking around looking at, you know, Abraham Lincoln and all the statues and everything. And then when he got into the Senate, he found out almost by accident. He was trying to hide it from him that there was actually land corruption going on. He wanted to take some land that his state, and they never say which state he's from, um, wanted to turn it into like a national boy camp so that every this is this was filmed in 1939 by the way. Um and so he ends up
009doing the filibuster for 23 hours and I've actually googled it and you really you're not supposed to even leave to go to the bathroom. I mean you're not supposed you're supposed to dehydrate yourself um so you don't leave. And this was a talking filibuster and he just talked and talked and talked talked talked and then um finally one of the people um one of the other senators who he had always looked up to, you know, just said, you know, I'm terrible. I I'm corrupt. And then he ended up uh they ended up not doing not he was just trying to keep them from uh taking the vote. So, so and I think I think one point of that is how really one person can stand up. But it also got me thinking what what do
010we have as residents in local government? We don't have the equivalent of the filibuster. So, so I think we're that's that's an extreme case. You don't use it until extreme case, but I don't think we have anything like that. >> Oh my god. >> And so on the checks and balances side, we we're at a little deficit there. Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up because it plays right into these other topics under the umbrella documents required by law letting the people speak. And I've got some examples of what happened to me. The strong town manager form of government spending without town meeting or select board approval and uh anyways. All right. So, documents required by law. So, I enjoy talking to people and if I see someone in other town doing citizen engagement
011stuff or I see they've written a letter the editor, whatever, I will contact them. And so I'm so glad I did because I learned from someone I met another town that by state law it's chapter 40 section 49 we are supposed to have an annual an annual town report before I believe the >> yeah and that that law that state law it's interesting I don't think it said like it didn't come with a table of contents you shall include this >> but what we found was the examples we looked at towns were very comprehensive. You could understand exactly the financial state um the hiring of those towns and I as someone who studies history I also think it's an amazing document for that historical it's all in one place and these to me those reports
012don't seem like extra work they seem like it's just putting together in a nice little thing the the work that everyone already does. >> Yeah. Um, what I found so fascinating, I looked at a whole bunch of them and it was hard to find a town that didn't have one >> except for us. Um, that they had uh birth and deaths and the what they talked about at town meeting. But the most important thing that most all of them had was the salaries. They list all the salaries and we we have no idea what our salaries are. >> Be clear. I think what you're talking about is salaries by employee name and not a bucket and not like this is how much we spend on salaries in this department. it was per person which you
013know people can get upset about but that is that is typical in public employment that you're your salary is exposed and I think that's okay because that gives people an idea um so I do want to correct one point because we don't know I also looked on the town website so we know for sure it's not in the town website the annual report right >> we haven't been sent one to our house so We don't have that. Could it exist and just not be publicized and given to the public? We don't know. >> Right. And I was maybe I don't know five, six, seven years ago. I was in the library and the front room where the chairs are and I noticed this little box >> and I walked towards it and it was filled
014with town annual reports from like the 80s and the 70s and maybe >> maybe up to 1990. So then um our previous town manager in mentioned that he was going to bring back the annual report >> the required by state law >> the bring back the required report and we had it for one year but it did not have the salaries in it because I don't know what is up with this town but trying to get the salaries is it's it can be very difficult and I know in other towns If they're not in the annual report, they're in the um warrant. They're somewhere. They make it easy for you. So, I if we had one, I think it would be strange that two people who are actually alert couldn't find it. So, anyways, I'm
015I'm for anyone that watches this, and I hopefully some of our leaders watch this or listen to this podcast, uh, they can maybe look into it. Um, it had like even down to what they spent on a project. And I mean, >> oh, I love the part about this would be super helpful about the bonds. It's every bond, when it was started, when it's finishing, and how much is currently owed, and the interest rate. It was really, really simple, >> easy to understand. >> Yes, Medway had the bonds, the long-term debt, all the projects and what it was, and the interest cost. And it just reminds me just how much we're actually in the dark here. I mean, we have these aggregate totals at town meeting and no one knows what what what even makes
016it up. There's a few random categories and I don't know. I really think we need to >> Well, there is that saying, right? Information is power. >> Oh my god, I'm going to write that down. >> So, we do need the information. We want it. People want it. they're capable of making decisions looking at it and asking better questions when you have better data. >> Yeah. Uh I mean my my own philosophy is and I think it would make the clerk's office uh run far less uh what do you call it a staffwise. would be easier for them if all this information that people keep asking for that every other town has in their public reports if it could be online I think it would drastically reduce the time that people spend >> I mean
017that's that's a good point and they recently talked about charging but maybe you have like what's in the reports you guide people there and if they keep asking for something report then maybe you charge them you said you didn't look at the report right so you could actually save money and time, I think. Yeah. And and have people really be able to have a way to be more invested in understanding what's going on. >> Yeah. And if look, if you want an engaged uh citizenry, then they need information because how can we interact with nothing, you know, just like the absence of anything? I don't even a vacuum. We're supposed to we're supposed to we've been given the power to legislate, but we don't have the we don't have basic information to even know what
018we're legislating. Um All right. So, uh All right. We are we we have these action items, too. I think that that should be looked into about the report. >> I think so. That's a simple >> If they're done, fine. List them on the website. >> Put them in the library. >> Yeah. If they're not, where are they? >> Um, and the economic development revenue form is also supposed to have a a required report. Um, and I've tried for a long time to get it and it's required and again, you know, it's it's crazy. Um did there's another another requirement the uh the capital you >> oh so I mean the on the checks and balances so I look at I really did take to heart when we had this you know nice chart from medway
019>> residents are are at the top I always have taken to heart about the legislative through town meeting >> but the other checks and balances that the public should have is expectation of following the rules so it tags along with wait we are supposed to be getting these things we don't who is who is asking for them and holding accountable shame on us as the public if we don't ask so that's one of the reasons we're here asking >> um but we're supposed to have a capital improvement committee that is citizens serving government >> right >> and that has not been reconstituted for quite some time so I think that's sort of a problem and I think when those rules are ignored Just like we're now out of sequence of reviewing the charter. Now maybe
020there will be no changes out of the charter. Maybe there will. But again, why are the public processes of checks and balances completely ignored in our town? >> Yeah. I don't know. We're going to be talk of government we have in in a little bit. Um so Oh, did you want to talk about Monson? Well, I I when we were talking about checks and balances, the the moderator there, I I was actually surprised because he wrote, >> you know, a short short essay on social media, which meant he was serious and he wanted people to try to look and it was >> really um I don't know if I should read some, but he wanted people to be aware of how town meeting worked and how the finance committee worked. Um >> I >> Okay.
021As as of now, you're two months out from annual town meeting. I thought it'd be a good time to go over some of my duties and responsibilities as moderator and those of the finance committee and put them in the form of public service posts on Facebook. Just as our federal government has separation of powers, the same is true of our state and local governments. For local governments, there's an executive branch and a legislative body. In Mson, that would be the same in Ashlin. The executive branch are vested in select board and the legislative powers are vested in town meeting. So he goes on to explain how the finance committee is under the legislative and that should also be independent. He believes that's why it's appointed by the moderator in that town also in our town.
022And so I think that just reiterates making sure that the finance committee is independent working as the legislative um and and not maybe just simply getting information from one source. >> Yeah. Um I I that line just jumped out at me. Serve the interest of the voters rather than the executive administration, the select board. I really think it's time for the moderator. Um like all the other groups in town, come before the select board and talk about the process, how people are picked. I think that would be really educational. And speaking of educational, I would love to see a citizens academy run by the citizens uh or at least have a part in the citizens academy because it just again we're we've got the the citizens sitting there, you know, but when do they get
023to stand up front and I mean just regular people. Um so that's something to think about. >> Yeah. I hope the select board next time there's a citizen academy will will at least consider having the a citizen component of that citizen groups think different ways to be involved how it all works. >> Yeah. Um, and I think once people understand how things work and the power they actually have that they're going to be more likely to participate because if people think, "Oh, nothing I do matters." What would be their motivation to participate? But if they're like, "Wow, I do have power to to help figure out how the town's going to look or the zoning, whatever." And not just when you're sitting in a town meeting, when it's too late to do anything. I think
024that would be great. All right. So, our next topic under the umbrella topic is letting the people speak and I had some uh I want to call them unfortunate experiences since we did the last podcast where I was like invited to speak and then I was cut off. Uh, I was interrupted then cut off and then uh I was I just I couldn't believe it because we actually talked before last time about Baron versus Kenda and I know that they at their open meeting law training that they had I think it was in February late mid midFebruary they talked about um that when there's public comment. We can talk about that process too. Katie, you could talk about that. When there is a public comment, the the idea is to let the people speak instead
025of, you know, trying to shut them down. Do you want to talk about the process of public comment? >> Well, I think that we should do a better job of allowing it, saying when it's allowed, when it's not allowed, and why. And I I think that they do need to take heart um that mass Supreme Court ruling that people do get to say. Now I mean I I think there has to be some measure of them. Like when I was on the planning board and there was basically Zoom bombing that was just >> terrible. Like do do you allow racists and other things to occur? >> Generally probably not right. But what and so I think we can do a better job if there was a well- definfined process. People would understand if there's limits
026where they're coming from, >> right? That we try not to have people saying for instance racist things. We would >> um >> this could be very simple if we wrote and discussed as a town a policy that we agreed to, right? And I think the public does understand every meeting can't have public comment, right? That that isn't what we're asking. We're asking that it's defined in a process and the and the process is followed. And quite honestly, I think everyone knows the error should always be on let's hear from the public. >> Oh, I absolutely that's such a great statement and I remember talking to a previous moderator who always said to me uh that I wanted to heir on the side of democracy. And I think we have a tendency in this town to
027heir on the side of not democracy, efficiency should >> um yeah and people but the excuse would be efficiency and I will not buy that. I'm sorry. >> I mean efficiency that is just you know you can be somewhat efficient so it doesn't take two weeks but um people people being told the comment is ending a town meeting when they're still sitting in their chairs. I mean, wouldn't wouldn't the >> Well, and the legislators should get we're the legislative body. We should get to get up and speak again. If you made a point that I agree or don't, it's okay. I do think some of those >> um I I feel like the time limit has helped some people feel like it goes better whether it does or not. And I I applaud again you
028up the time limit. That seems something people can live with, right? >> You did a citizen speech. Yeah. >> So I I'm I read some other towns are looking in and doing those things. So that as a limit that we agree on >> Yeah. >> seems to be okay, but but to say you can only speak once, >> who said who said that? >> That that was not the citizens petition at all. Um and my my other comment too, and I know it have before, you had some maybe senior citizens who have a little trouble moving. If you're gonna end the comments, it shouldn't be who's standing in line. It should be is if there's anyone who wants to come up again, let's make this welcoming. Let's make this people feel like it really is
029the people's night. Hey, you want to come and talk about this? Can everyone get in line now? I'll give a couple minutes for people to get in line. >> Um, I just think we we I hate I I I know I keep saying this, but I think we need to do better. We we need to just really want to hear from the people that live here. And since I've lived here, I don't think I it's very rare, like totally rare, if someone says something that maybe they probably shouldn't say or need to say. In general, people get up, they're very organized in their thoughts. And I was organized. I had written everything down. And I don't know, I I I just don't think there's a a place for it. Oh, and of course, I just
030reminded myself um listening. So, maybe the beginning of the 90s or so, I saw a course at Birmingham State and it was called listening and I the forgotten skill. So, I went to it because I said, "Well, you know, I don't know, I I know about hearing, but not necessarily listening." And it was probably one of the best classes I've ever taken. And uh this is an awesome book uh by Matteline Burley Allen and we it was like a bunch of arborists, me and a couple other people, and we she did all these activities. She was absolutely fabulous. And it was clear that we weren't listening even in the listening class. But I really learned, you know, h there's a diff listening is actually an acquired skill and I think it's one that's definitely in
031short supply in the town because when we go to say something and we're shut down, I was told at one point, as I recall, that there I they were disagreeing with what I'm saying. But I I get my couple of minutes and then there's a disagreement with me instead of just listening to me. >> So did have you seen you've seen some of the Hopkins town meetings and I noticed on their citizens comment their policy again process and policy is they don't comment live. They come back the next meeting and give a response. Now, I'm not quite sure how that all works with like open meeting law. Did they agree on an answer? Did they say one person answers? But it felt like >> yes, they could actually listen because they weren't trying to respond
032on the spot. >> Yeah, I think that's great. I think that encourages listening. I have listened to some uh I like to listen to the local other towns to see how they're organized and I think they're actually organized pretty well. I notice the people in Hopkin, they're invited to come and sit at this table >> and they are allowed to speak. >> They can speak. I've seen people speak for five minutes, even longer. >> The one I saw did have a time limit. In fact, they brought two people. They said, "If I hit my limit, I will go." >> Oh my god, that is so ingenious. Maybe that's why I thought it was longer because there was two. >> It was a similar topic. >> Yeah. So anyways, it's just it's just really refreshing and
033I think, you know, maybe we should take a look at ways to improve the process. >> Yeah, improve the process instead of just yelling at us, whatever. Um, all right. So, the next one that is related is I'm go back to my um page. It's our uh our form of local government. So in 2007 and I was not at this town meeting. I was not able to be there. I don't know maybe you were there. Uh they changed the town meeting government from a regular town manager. You can towns can have a town administrator, a town manager and then the strong town manager for McGuffin. and it took power away from the select board and ultimately the people and just gave it to this strong town manager. And you know, you you can see what
034they do. They they can do a lot. They sign all the warrants. They can decide money will be spent hiring everything. And when I watch other select board meetings, it's apparent to me that they still maintain power. They're not in a position of just, you know, asking, they're doing. So I don't know if you were at that meeting. >> Probably. I miss very few but I don't specifically uh remember that but here's another thing we we can say the advant I assume the advantages that when someone sold strong town managers that the the select border volunteer they have full lives already. So it gives some relief to them of having more decisions. I I can see that. But then when you do that, maybe there needs to be more oversight of like some citizens oversight
035like an example a lot a lot of police departments right if they're having issues with the public they create a public oversight so people can feel heard about these things right so I think there's ways to I I don't know that getting rid of strong town manager is entirely the answer >> based on how our select board structured right it's it's not even there are communities that pay. So then maybe someone could do it as a part-time job and it's a big ask, right? >> So I think it has to start there with the select board. What do they see pluses and minuses of that? But again, this goes back to we talked about >> if our government was following what we believe they're supposed to. We should have a charter review. It's written in
036the charter how often you have it. And I did not look up what I just know it's overdue to start the process and I apologize. did not look up. But so >> though we would be having those discussions as a community >> and we should have those discussions like maybe when we had it everyone thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. We've had it for a while. We don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread anymore. What can be done? >> Yeah. I it just we we need more opportunities to really listen, you know, to what the people are saying. And >> and can I interrupt about while I'm not listening? Um >> yeah. >> So I as a as a resident of town did not sub my civic duties to the
037select board. >> Yeah. >> And that is just the truth. We we need to be involved and to be good good members of the community and the legislature, you need to be involved. And so these things that continuously aren't done make it just much more difficult. >> Yeah. I mean, we're almost done with our time here. uh because it's so much fun and so enjoyable speaking into these historic microphones that were from the original WACA TV uh studio on Elliot Street. Uh Paul Bodwin, who is our fabulous tech director. Um he was telling us about the history of these very fine microphones. Um, yeah, I think the whole town would just run more smoothly if we actually had processes that we follow. >> Um, so we will be back. Uh, uh, I don't think we
038even mentioned um, your two co-hosts were Julian Ardone and >> Kate Jersey. Um, and I graciously accept the opportunity to be a co-host. And I would encourage other people interested to email um, questions, topics, and co-host opportunities. >> And it is bad girls.com or if you see me around town, just say, "Hey, uh, I want to talk to you about that." So anyways, um, we will see you in another month, I believe. And uh thank you for watching. We're now on Spotify and what was the other one? >> Apple podcast. So we've made it to the big big legs. Uh thank you very much.