001[music] Hello Ashlanders. There is a new podcast in town. The Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people, by the people, and for the people. an opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms and it takes place right here in the information parlor at WACA TV in Ashland. So today's conversation is hosted by Julie Ardone and Kate Jersey >> and as always we honor Jim Hannah who has a I think probably the inspiration right of of the podcast for you. >> Yes. to reminding us that it's okay to speak up. >> So, welcome Jim. Uh, so before we get into today's absolutely riveting topics, uh, we are going to start with what we call upbeat corner something um, awesome in town. And I'm just going to speak about the art shows
002that they have at the library and the downstairs art gallery. uh they were done for uh I don't know how many years 201 15 by Larry D. Young and he has um retired from doing that. I was lucky enough to have a show there in uh I think it was September 2025 and Larry was absolutely incredible to work with because it was my first show and he just showed us how to hang it. he helped hang it and just a wonderful experience. >> And I think that's um a great like showing that level of care by someone in town and hopefully pass the baton um to have that kind of I know it's competitive to actually get to display at the library. And then I just want to kind of while we're talking about culture,
003I I heard this little fun thing about a woman that started a group and I think it's around the country now for people who sing badly and it's not that it's they want to sing and they might not sing well and they're actually having groups and they have lots of success. So I think there's lots of room for cultural things and you don't have to be perfect at it either. >> Yeah. And it's bad. Uh okay. So, oh, do you want to read? We've got today's inspirational quote. >> Yeah. A basic tenant of a healthy democracy is open dialogue and transparency. [clears throat] >> Peter Fen. >> Yeah. And that uh leads in really nicely to today's umbrella topic, which is democracy dies in the darkness. I'm sure people have heard it. was the slogan
004for the Washington Post, but it was popularized by investigative journalist Bob Woodward and he and Carl Bernstein were the two journalistic investigators who uh met with various people about the Watergate breakin at the Democratic National Committee and that was June 17th, 1972. Kate and I both just happened to be history buffs. And if I can ever get history in here, I'm just so excited about that. And then it was a really great movie called All the President's Men if anyone wants to watch it. Uh so we are going to be talking about understanding uh free speech at public meetings and providing the public with public data and sharing public research study methodology. Um, so I was at uh I think I was no, excuse me, I was watching one of the Slackboard meetings and they
005were talking about some public forums uh that they wanted to have uh around some certain topics and they were talking about how they were going to really try to control it And because they were saying that, you know, some people, I don't know who they were talking about, um, some people might feel uh, intimidated or whatever, and that they were going to make sure it was super simple and, you know, there'd be a time a time frame. Time frame is fine, and that it would be, you know, on a certain topic, which is they're all like that. Um, but what I took issue with was that they were going to require this sort of overcontrolled civil civil discussion. And what I was having a hard time understanding did they not know about the there was
006a ruling a free speech very important ruling that was actually happened out of the town of Southboro in 2023 and it was uh Baron versus Cola um and you can Google it it's it's really fantastic and it said that the Massachusetts and maybe you have stuff you can read. Did you have anything? >> Well, I I really appreciate So, I think it was a 80-year-old woman that kind of stood up. I think um some some civil rights groups were behind her to the suit because she went she went to a select board meeting to have her voice heard, which is what we believe in. and the select board like sometimes if you are passionate about something and you don't feel heard you might say things that aren't as kind >> I think is maybe what
007happened so they decided that wasn't appropriate >> and so it's nice to re to express to be civil I I don't think that's a bad goal but >> at the Supreme Judicial Court they said that's that's your right as free speech. So, I think I I got that message, too. I I watched that meeting. I thought um I feel like there's some managing the public and maybe that isn't the best way to really work with the public. Yeah. >> And I think I guess I still have >> a little bit of u you know, this is this is how it gets in our brain from the meeting that had those managed questions, right? Oh yes. >> And so it all feels like >> um there's something being curated, but the public isn't really part of
008that. >> Yeah. I wrote down from the public bodies cannot enforce civility policies regulating speakers to be respectful during public comment periods. So I really think that our select board needs to review. I I'm a little I'm just a little surprised that I don't know if they didn't know about it or I would hope I don't know. Am I >> So I think may maybe they knew about it and here's their dilemma. They do they do want the public to be civil, right? We want the public to be civil. It's remembering and then remembering that this court case is important and then also I think we had talked >> once before about what is considered civil >> to you versus someone else like different ethnic groups have different ways of speaking. >> Yeah, >> we
009know this. How can you something that you as middle class white woman might think is univil might not be univil to someone else and >> that should be uh I think it's actually probably why that Supreme Court case was won as well. Right. >> Yeah. I mean that what you just said is so important. It's something that I find myself commenting on. people will use a certain word like an abstraction >> and I'm like well that abstraction means one thing to that person and one thing to someone else and people are almost surprised that different people could have different interpretations of an abstraction. It's really interesting. The decision protected the right to be rude, unprofessional, and disrespectful when critiquing government officials under the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights. And then some people said, well, does this
010apply to town meeting? Because we have an extremely hyperont controlled town meeting. So, I don't know that anyone's done a a a probably maybe have to do a a lawsuit. And one thing I came across because I I was watching um it was it was about zoning. It was called Emer City and it was on a point of view on WGBHPs, I don't know. And it was people who were coming together at these zoning meetings because somebody bought a property and wanted to zone it and they didn't like it. And that led me to something called because some of the I thought some of the people in the audience really reacted to being told that they had to have a civil conversation. It's called viewpoint biased censorship. And [clears throat] so sometimes the people are
011invited to a meeting but then like they're invited but are they really invite? Do they really want to hear from you? So I think this law is actually really important to keep it open for people. >> Exactly. And I I did briefly read through that and they went all the way back to colonial times for the record of the right to organize people. So, it wasn't a a knee-jerk reaction. It was a well well thought out. And again, I I don't think either of us want to be arguing for people to be univil. That's not the point. The point is hearing from the public. And sometimes it may be >> maybe in a way that >> you don't like and that that's actually okay and our right. >> Yeah. And sometimes people can be sort
012of >> [clears throat] >> uh shamed or whatever for it's it's called univil, but it isn't. It's really just a different viewpoint, but it might not be a viewpoint people want to hear from. I think we have to be careful at these forums that the power the power distribution is not all powerful to the government or or and that it's distributed between the people and the government. Um so anyways uh >> well I I I just have one thing to say about that. Ideally the government is reflecting what the people want. We shouldn't actually be yeah >> different ultimately. >> Right. Right. because we technically we are the government. I mean I always say that. Um all right. So our next related topic is uh providing the public with public data. And we have this
013this is actually broken down into economic development revenue fund report and then public records. And uh so in I think it was back in maybe 2018 uh we took the money from the restaurant tax and we did our first uh at a town meeting. It was our first like Ashland economic revenue uh fund and it was said at the town meeting it was going to be for economic development, the library, social services and then some open space and then they came back like I want to say a year and a half later and wanted to change it and they had a new name for it. Uh the first do you have the Oh, the first bill was uh House 5014. This went through the legislature and that one required the town meeting town manager shall
014annually provide or report to the town donations or appropriations received, amount of grants and loans made and to whom. Then in I believe it was 2019 that was changed and you know people definitely talked about that town meeting. Um and the new one which was house 3953 in 2020 and you can download these um [clears throat] that one uh the it was at the very be very end. Do you have the very >> because >> the treasurer of the town of Ashland shall until such time as the economic development special revenue fund ceases to exist provide an annual financial report to the town which shall be publicly posted on or before October 1st of each year. The annual financial report shall specifically include fund revenues, fund receipts, the amount of grants made from the fund,
015the specific amounts of loans made from the fund, and to whom the loans were made, the balance of money in the fund at the end of each fiscal year. So, have you seen that? >> No. And I asked for it. I have been asking for it for I want to say three years. I asked for it uh once I once I realized I didn't honestly I didn't have the uh the bill. It was sent to me by by our liaison in the house and I read it and I got to the end and I'm like so I started asking for it and at first I was told even by staff I don't know what you're talking about and you know I would refer people to it and then I started asking the select board I
016didn't get a response I gave them all I wouldn't mind but I gave people all the information it wasn't like they had to go looking for it. Uh then I started doing a subset of the select board. I think I did it most recently two or three months ago and we should have I think this came out in 2020. So even being generous uh 21 22 23 24 25. We should have at a minimum five reports and maybe even the one from 220. And I I'll be honest, I don't get it. I I I've even CCd the our liaison at the house thinking well maybe that would do something. >> So >> can I can I just in response to that we have another quote on transparency. >> Government ought to be all outside and
017no inside. Everybody knows that corruption thrives in secret places and avoids public places and we believe it is a fair presumption that secrecy means impropriy. Woodro Wilson. So I am not accusing any improprietary but these are these are the perceptions. This is this is a president of the United States right >> saying like asking the government to be transparent. And I think that's I think that's super frustrating that that's called a home rule petition right to get that special fund. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> So I'm not sure why these things wouldn't be honored. They're public agreements not honored. >> Yeah. I and I think, you know, we have a right to know where the money's going, where it's being spent. And I I it's it's truly um concerning to me that I keep asking for
018it and I don't even get I I don't get any response. Like so anyways that that's problem at in another meeting we're going to talk about economic development but today we're just talking about the report. The next one is public records. I think Kate and I have you've done public records requests. >> I've done public records requests. Um, I will, it's interesting how it's evolved over time because back in I want to say 2012, people who were asking for public records were almost like >> it was bad. >> They were like publicly shamed. I had seen I mean I was one of those people who was publicly shamed. So, I'm speaking from a a personal experience here >> where they would mention um your name and and Jim and I because we were doing this
019show be in 2014, we did a lot of records requests um to get the information to get to share with people. I mean, I would hope that our podcast listeners uh want to be confident that we've actually got actual information. Um, and then they would list, they created this, I don't understand it. It was like this money amount that we were costing them money when we did a public record. And I could never understand that because I mean these people have salaries and I don't know how you can say that someone's costing money >> when it's a public requirement. Government. >> Yeah, it's a public requirement. And this those sunshine laws, >> when were those I don't I I don't have this written down, but what when was it or 18? The state passed these
020the state uh these sunshine laws that really toughened up people having access to public information. Um so I don't know it was sometime during co they set up this next requ system which is better you go in and you you know put your name and although some people do it anonymously and then you ask for what you want and it gets sent to various department. Um do you have any experience with things you've asked for? I haven't recently, so I'm trying to recall, but I think that I think it's I wish it was a little easier to find on the website, but it's actually, like you said, pretty good, pretty easy, and um it's obviously a necessary feature of government. If you look at all the requests, they're they vary so much from um simple
021I'd like to see if there's any permits open on my house to yeah, >> whatever. So, I think I think the streamlining of the electronic was good and I think that probably streamlining of um answering >> could be improved and maybe some of this stuff like you wouldn't have to ask if it was on the website of that economic development revenue fund report. That is such a brilliant a brilliant comment because with salaries, every town is posting their salaries bus. I mean, I've had to ask for it. I've seen uh there's another person I noticed on X request who asks every year for the salaries. like they would save themselves so much time and energy and save our time and energy if they would just put everything on the website. Uh, and it's such a
022simple concept that I just don't understand why you would want to make your own jobs far more difficult than just putting the information on the website and then you would have far less people asking for it because it would be on the website. >> I would I would assume there'd be less requests if there was more public information available and some people would >> would miss it and they'd point them say I'll go to this link, right? But that might still simplify >> um we have a ways to go but I think it does start with being um being forthcoming with the information. >> Yeah. And unfortunately, I've had um some un I don't know [clears throat] what you want to call it, some weird experiences asking for information and I was build at one
023point and and the reasons they were billing me like it was these weird software glitches and just all this crazy stuff that they said would would happen and they would get through the computer run but then that it might not work and they have to it was it was just so far-fetched that I you are allowed to appeal everyone should know this you can appeal to the state of Massachusetts if they won't give you your information and you're you're pretty certain it's information that you should be given and you appeal to the state and it's very easy. You just send them an email and they get back to you right away with one of their lawyers that they've received it. And I had an experience during COVID where I asked for something. It were emails
024between people which are public records and I had to go three times. I think it was three times I went to the state and people said, "Oh, you shouldn't go more than once." was like, "Well, I'm going to keep going because this is public information." I ended up getting it. But the town attorneys got involved because they were writing the letters that were being sent to to stand behind this money they wanted me to charge. Um, and I'm like, "Oh my god, it's just all these convoluted weirdness." And in the end I got it anyway. So and then more recently I asked for something in the fall and there are people I have seen asking for just t a lot of stuff multiple times or even in one uh information request and mine was not
025a lot. It was actually two things that were said at a public meeting that I just wanted to have in writing and then like a simple computer run and then I was sent a bill. But it we have we had a 2hour if it takes less than two hours there was no charge and this did took an hour and a half and they were billing me like $37 for two things that were mentioned at meeting. that you would have. So again, I I I I don't I I wrote here we have I I like to write action items. Be the public hero and or heroine and just make everybody's life easier and just give people the information because if you don't, we think of that quote the gate just random like why don't they want
026me to have this information? Um so uh one quick thing I wanted to share and we do have another uh we have another topic here but I read that Hopington I read it in their uh news they have a newspaper called the Hopington Independent that they had somehow overbudgeted the people and I think it was I wrote it down here somewhere I think it was five 5.7 million and they want to return it back to the people and they were going to have a meeting in December but I think it's moved because it was a bad time of year but I was like they said they overestimated debt payment employee insurance cost um and the health insurance actually went down by 2 million and I just thought to myself wow that is so utterly refreshing
027that they want to return money to the people because we have a surplus every year. No matter what they tell you, we got a surplus and it gets divied up and just people spend it, which I I have a problem with because we never get to >> Well, I I like that we put that to OPE. I mean, I I don't know how we're ever going to pay that off. I think it's over $50 million, right? Some other towns have a plan and they're >> they're they're coming along and I have not in quite some time heard >> what the real plan is for that. So, so if there's surplus and it's going to things like that, um I I think that's okay. I mean, I I wish we were more proactive about handling the
028OPE, but >> yeah. >> Um >> I just wish people had more of a say. This was set by the powers of pity. And again, you know, we're supposed to be part of the government even though it doesn't seem like it. I really feel like you want to include people, you want engagement, you want community. You can't lock people out so they're banging on the door. Let me in. Uh >> and that goes back to one of our I think our maybe even our first um conversation on the podcast about how Framingham passed a bylaw to have citizen input on the budget and I think I think we need to work at that Ashland. >> Yeah. And that of course reminds me there's been two recent budget they were called budget workshop meetings and uh
029both of them were unfilmed. I asked for them to be filmed. I asked for a Zoom link. Couldn't even get a Zoom link. Um, and I'm like, it's like we're going to, it reminds me of a unveiling. You hire someone to do a painting and then they take the veil off and you're like, that's not what I want. Um, so now we have one more that was very interesting because we both went we were both at the um, what was that meeting? >> Housing production. >> The housing production meeting. Can you because you asked a really great question about they had interviewed people. >> So we we are on a shorter time frame if they want to comply to get it submitted to the state before it expires which would be May 2026. And um
030I think uh they hired the firm Jam Goldson to do I think I think the housing production plan does need you know outside support. >> Yeah. Sure. Um, and that was a good pick because it should line up with a comprehensive plan. So, I at that forum though it was they done some pre-work of interviewing people and I I asked of who those people were >> because I feel like if you don't know we we have no idea what stakeholders were or were not represented like what were our interests at the table or not. Um, and I did finally get that that was um the t the planning department did finally post that on the website, but but it did um take quite a few back and forth emails. >> Yeah. Again, more energy wasted
031because again, you got it. And then when you looked at the list, did you have any thoughts about it? >> Uh, I did not think it was particularly representative. I think you could argue that if the planning board and select board run the list in the one hand they are elected. >> Yeah. >> But I don't think it was a full representation of the town. >> Yeah. Um again that too I mean how I my question is still who created the list? I don't know if we've got do did anyone get that answer yet? >> I'm not sure someone asked. I mean I think it I think this is staff hired JM Goldson probably had has the most contact I would assume. >> Yeah. So somebody created the list. So anyways um we are to
032the end of our show and I just want to thank WACA TV for letting us do this podcast. Um, if you'd like to be a co-host on the show or suggest future topics, please contact us at badg girlsshanaggmail.com. >> Do you have anything you want to say? >> Uh, no. I think thank you again for the opportunity to be a co-host. I I recommend uh it's a great way to be involved. So, contact to be a co-host. >> Yeah. So, we will see you in a month. Thank you. Go. [music]