001[music] Hello, Ashlanders. There's a new podcast in town, The Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people, for the people, and by an opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms. And it takes place right here in the information parlor at WACAV. And we call it that so that people can get many different sides of the issues. All right. And today's conversation is hosted by Kate Jersey and Julie Nardone. And before we get to today's rippeting topics, uh we start with uh what we always start with, which is the upbeat corner. And I'm gonna go this week and I'm going to talk about uh how the DPW keeps our roads um salted. Do they salt? >> Well cared for. I can give you a little joke in my neighborhood because it's
002partly Ashlin Framingham. Yeah. >> That every neighbor said we know when we get to the Ashlin because the roads are better. >> Yeah. I think they really are really well done. uh compared to some other towns. And back in 2017, I wrote an experiential article called Day and Night in the Life of an Ashland Snowplow Driver. And uh the DPW director picked me up in a blizzard. It felt like a blizzard. And I drove around with him for a couple hours. And it was absolutely fascinating because people think, "Oh, it's so easy. You just get in a truck and plow, but everything is covered blanketed in white. >> Hard to see. >> You c you literally don't know where you are. I kept saying, "Where are we?" >> You can't see the road. You can't
003unfortunately the mailboxes. Um it's just hard to see everything. And then every once in a while, the trucks have to stop because uh the windshield gets all icy. They're constantly blowing out heat. It's uh it's it's there's really a lot more to it than people think. >> Yeah. And it it's uh kudos to the DPW and also the contractors that hire to fill in, right? That it's it's a fill-in work for them. We see um different sprinkler companies, uh logos and things like that that and it's hard job and hopefully they get paid fairly well for doing that. >> Yeah. Um, all right. So, next we're going to do an inspirational quote. Okay. Do you >> um I I really like this one that um you picked volunteers don't get paid not because they're worthless
004because they're priceless from Sherry Anderson. And I think that really fits well with um Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. We've been talking about um volunteers and community spirit and how that works. So that definitely is applicable and we hope that the volunteers in Ashlin do feel priceless. Um I think we [clears throat] don't always get I think it gets taken for granted like the DPW plow trucks, right? And we can do better. [snorts] >> All right. So today's topics are going to revolve around what we're calling new beginnings. It's January. It's a new year. uh considering volunteerism, asking brilliant questions, keeping it real, and earning public trust. So, considering volunteerism, picking up from the crowd, um I volunteered on a number of committees. I think I was on three at one time. I mean,
005it can certainly get addicting. Um and they were all enjoyable. It's a great way to meet people in town. And how was your experience? >> The I guess the largest public um committee was I was elected to the planning board and it it's a lot of work and it was a great experience and I don't say it's a lot of work to discourage people. I just want them I think we should be >> sort of try to give people good guidance about the amount of time or commitment. Um, so there's volunteer positions that are less and more time. And I think we, again, I think those are things that we could do better as a town. Um, highlighting what the duties are, what the commitment is, how this works with um, and I think the
006other thing about the valuing is to make sure that volunteer committees are respected. >> Yes. Is really important. One thing I was thinking about is um what makes a town government very different from a corporation is that there's basically an army of volunteers. The schools have their own volunteers. I don't know a lot about those ones, but the town I mean what business has I mean I don't know how many volunteers there are. are >> I mean I think it's if you count our community unlimited when you count all the volunteer hours of the sports youth sports on up like you said the schools the boosters for the sports teams and then >> um I think well my recent volunteer was with the comprehensive plan steering committee and we had um sort of some preset
007people representing other committees and then I think through actually your suggestion was picking up someone from each precinct. So that was we had 56 applications for six positions, right? So it shows that when we when we are truly reaching out well and following through. Now I can honestly say the 56 calling to six is hard and then people feel maybe a little bit left out when you only can pick those six and there >> um maybe that can be worked on. But I don't think you have to turn people away. I think I think we can find ways to use people. >> Yeah. And find other opportunities for them. And one thing I wanted to talk because it's it's sort of become an issue. I don't know [clears throat] maybe during co or I'm not
008sure exactly what happened but some of the volunteer positions were kind of being replaced with paid p people. And I I think we want to be very careful about >> Well, I I think Yeah, I agree. I think that goes along with respecting because if you have I'm not sure my whole time in Ashlin that we had town employees sitting on volunteer committees and then we have seen that recently and I feel like that um I can see some positives of that to be honest but I can also see some negatives and Ashlin let's face it we need to streamline we need to be efficient and streamline staffing to meet our budget so perhaps those um staff people on committees probably has to change. >> Yeah. Especially when they were they were volunteers and they
009were doing a great job and then all of a sudden they were not volunteers. >> Well, and I think the one that we had recently kind of have questions about is the open space and recreation plan. So, I believe it's every I'm going to say around five years that you we should update that to the state. it's a requirement and co everybody got a pass. They were behind um all of that. So the open space and recreation committee has done that and I think that now somehow town staff took that over and I I don't know that that's a good thing. Right. I I know I went to the meetings and there weren't well attended and that's all of our fault to engage people but um perhaps it would have been better attended with the
010committee or how is that all working? I don't know. >> I don't know. And one more that I'd like to bring up because I have written um the select board a couple of times is the town planner position was always done by the planning board. I think the staff went through some resumeumés then they were turned over to the planning board. It's in the charter >> and for some reason this time and I don't think there should be any excuses. I don't believe that. Um, it was done by mainly the staff with I think one person from the planning board because it's normally done on camera. They interview we get to see um it was kind of removed from the planning board. And again, if the staff are, you know, saying they're overworked or whatever,
011I I think putting things back where they were and not removing them the first place is the way to go. So, I mean, I think it's it's an ongoing topic that needs to be talked about, you know, more at select board meetings. Um so the [snorts] next topic is asking brilliant questions and we're sometimes uh it's sometimes mentioned at these uh well they're tri board meetings but they're really override meetings and I think the uh the agenda should just say what it is um that we need to ask tough questions but And we never ask tough questions. Um I some of the citizens try to ask tough questions but if you don't have any sort of set aside time for the citizens um then it I I I just don't know where we're going. So
012that's a that's a great point because I remember from the first well October I believe tri board meeting not couldn't say the first that one of the select board members mentioned a listening tour and we we um we kind of keep skipping that right because the listening tour could have been the tough questions from the public that got now >> kind of through the process actually asked and answered. Um, it seems like there would have been a way to make that happen, right, in this situation. And I I believe when you're talking finances and our spending doesn't meet our we're spending more than we have that these there need to be some tough questions, >> right? And I think what makes government good is actually public scrutiny. Um, I think for some reason we've got
013some kind of fear of public scrutiny, but I think the more eyes you have on this stuff, people can see things, that's when you get creativity and all kinds of ideas. >> Well, and it does I think it does seem like that resistance to public input. Yeah. And what's the resistance of the public in a public government, right? So, so I think what we have >> is a government that's trying to function as um management, which is great, but public service isn't the same as management, right? You're serving the public and that means the public needs to be brought along. And if if there's residents that are don't care to be involved, I mean, I'm okay with that, but there are residents that care to be involved, right? So, you have to figure that out.
014>> Yeah. And I think resistant is a good word because it certainly feels like our local government, with some exceptions that we do mention, um they seem to be resistant to the public getting information, asking questions, seeing things, and it's like, hey, it's our money. We're paying for this, and we have a right. Just like if you go to the supermarket and you want to question why your rolls or whatever you bought, there's a difference of a dollar. Um, and we certainly have a right to that. And that brings me into another thing that, um, of course there was really no opportunity to ask at the override meetings was like non-UN raises. Um, I've looked at uh I I actually did a a public records request. Um, and it turns out we don't have any
015step increases for non-union salaries and we don't have a personnel board. I Googled it and I was absolutely amazed at all the towns that have volunteer personnel boards with the with the taxpayers actually deciding what the increases are and and at the steps. So I I think there's no reason not to have some kind of guidelines about that and that's publicly available and there are many towns you um that have that and I again I think it has a way for the public to be involved and understand and I don't think it should be left to chance with HR or whatever management. >> Um that seems too arbitrary especially for public for public government. These these need to be nailed down and transparent. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's very strange that like one
016or two people are deciding what non-UN sellers are being and sometimes I hear the word, you know, we're adjusting it for market rate and I'm like, it's it's important to understand that every town has a different budget based on the median incomes or of the people that live there. And saying that we need to match salaries to a really uh Tony town makes no sense because why wouldn't it be the opposite? Why wouldn't you say why don't the Don Towns meet the salaries to more like Ashland or >> No, and I think that's an interesting point, right? So, we can buy the point like, oh, they're getting they're paying more, so they're getting the best candidates, which we don't necessarily know is true because here's the thing. We I can think of a recent example
017maybe because I was on the planning board when Alvaro came as the assistant town planner who created the idea of the Ashlin Arboritum and people rallied behind that. The select board supported that and I think >> a new person with not a lot of experience came in and gave maybe that little spark to push that project to the finish line. Right. >> And so he was not the highest paid person. He was so I and I I don't want to make this about Alvaro. My point is that if [snorts] if we choose to have salaries that are in keeping with our budget and someone is chasing money for the highest salary, maybe maybe we are actually getting the better people the better fit for our town. >> You because there's something about you want people
018to be there who want to be there. I mean if people are just constantly moving around for the highest salary, they can do that. I don't know if that's the best fit for us. And I know from my own work experience, I can't speak for everybody, but I think when most pe most people leave, they leave their boss. >> I mean, that's what this research says. >> I know I've left jobs because of a boss and I've stayed at jobs because I'm a boss. When you have an awesome boss that is to me that's it's like an invisible payment >> that you that talk about priceless it is worth it. I think it's worth it to [snorts] have a smaller salary and have the most incredible supportive awesome awesome world. >> So in a sub
019point I think that was lost the way I explained it. >> If if other you know it's expensive to live in Metro West. So, if people start with their entry level and and decide they're ready to move on to another town, we're going to get a new person and they might be better, >> right? I'm not afraid to get new people and somehow we hear that they're afraid to get we have to hang on to >> um and we've had some great people that left and that's okay. Like Ashlin didn't crumble and I am not disrespecting those people in no way. I'm just saying that we we will get other great people. Yeah. I mean, uh, people people want to move on, you know, that's >> we have to let them and it's not over
020salary, >> right? It isn't. It's really Sometimes it's your commute. Maybe you don't want to commute or you want to walk or bike to work or whatever. So, I just think that >> So, do you think that um h us getting a a uh volunteer personnel board would help um kind of rein in what the public thinks about salaries and how we do overturn of staff? >> I do. Um I was very impressed with the stuff I was reading in the other towns and I mean when I Googled it like a whole bunch of them came up. wasn't like I couldn't find any. I think I I can't say for sure, but it seems to me because I noticed other towns had steps that we're kind of an anomaly of just a couple of internal
021people making these decisions that sound arbitrary. And again, I don't know. I think you involve the people and then other people. Well, I I would feel more comfortable and confident and at ease if I thought we had volunteer personnel, but and you wanted to be volunteers because it's really hard when you have the people that are working here setting the >> I I think that's a it's sort of an inherent conflict, which I understand why it's done, but it is ultimately sort of an inherent conflict, right? Um, and I don't, you know, maybe it would be hard to get people for that, but I think then since there's so many towns, there's already a structure to sort of copy how this works. >> And it doesn't mean that, you know, >> we'd get all the
022people that don't want the budget increase and say cut all the salaries 50%. That's not the point. There needs to be some guard rails, but I think guardrails of public are better than guardrails non-existent right now. >> Yeah. I I think you get a just a wide array of people who are interested who want to do that. Okay, so our next topic is uh what am I calling it there? Keeping it real. Um, so I noticed when I was at uh three of meetings and then one that I watched uh that it was stated at every single meeting at the beginning how fabulous it was that every single person got along in the room and that they weren't like other towns where maybe there was infighting or outfighting or whatever you want to call it.
023And on the surface it seemed good, but then the more I thought about it and as I watched this voting process unfold, it just seemed to me that um people were maybe maybe feeling a little bit under pressure to vote for something when they actually weren't either ready to vote or they wanted to ask more questions. >> You I >> I like the idea that they've cultivated to get along because I believe when I first came to town, it was this whole every time with budget, how much is school, how much does the town side need? And I feel like that was a positive thing to try to iron out that structure. Now, personally, and I've said this to people on select board, I I don't believe it's always 7030. Maybe sometimes town needs 35
024and 65. So, I think that's a little odd and maybe that goes along with that. If everything it's everything always stays the same, is it okay? Right. And maybe not. Right. So, um disagreement in democracy is good. It >> absolutely. You can't have a disagreement. >> And it doesn't mean they didn't disagree, but I I think um so could that collectively lead to I'm not supposed to disagree publicly? I don't know. I don't know. in that room with all those boards who are working hard for the town. Yeah. >> Right. They certainly are. Um I think I think we do need to I I heard them say be very transparent, prove everything. I think that's a missing part about that. >> Yeah. Per Yeah. >> Yeah. I think um I'm just really I I'm really
025to the point where whatever you tell me you need to pro you need to give documentation, tables, grids because I think for too long I I I've seen a slack board. They ask a question and they they get back some weird fuzzy sort of answer and it it it makes me nerous cuz I don't think they should accept those kind of answers because they're they're representing us. Yeah. >> And I think they get a little it gets a little bit confused who they're representing. >> [snorts] >> And I want to talk about something that I learned in uh grad school and it's a term called group think and it is most associated with the Bay of Pigs fiasco in 1960 >> in Cuba. But I'm just going to read it. It's when a group prioritizes
026harmony and agreement over critical thinking leading to irrational decisions because members suppress doubts and avoid conflict to fit in resulting in poor incomes like ignoring risks or alternative solutions. And I think especially with something like an override, which I mean it's it's kind of financially crazy out there and to think that all these people just said, "Hey, yeah, let's do it." Um, without >> anyone asking what I think is back to our previous topic, a brilliant question. I didn't the only uh I thought the select board members I think there were two of them uh asking for a listening tour and it was like no one was listening to the select [clears throat] board members asking for a listening tour because I I think some people said maybe I've got it wrong. Why do you
027want a listening tour? I mean because that's that's what it's all about. So I'm willing to give that the finance committee evaluated information. We can again this is back to the pro the public doesn't have that same information available to scrub and say do does this make sense? says there's no other way to make the budget work. And I I think that listening to her would would have helped with that. Get ideas for cost savings and >> right >> when we have developments coming are we being overly conservative. Is that going to give some money? I mean lots of questions. >> Um and I don't the finance committee can maybe publish what they read and that might help alleviate >> um some of those concerns. But I I just want to honor and say I
028I know they worked so they may have some of the stuff that we don't feel like we are seeing which assuming members of the public don't have that information. >> Uh since I do read the um finance committee and that's uh I would say they do not have the information. Um, it's almost like, I hate to say this, but it feels like there's again resistance, fear >> to having brilliant questions asked, like it's going to unravel something. And I don't know, I that fear is really of concern to me. And I think they need to find a way to either live with it or get over it or incorporate it or >> so and the public has to figure out how to overcome that resistance. We have to that's part of part of this uh
029podcast, right? To to get people okay reminder Jim Hannah reminded us it's okay to speak up, right? >> Yes, absolutely. Okay, so our last topic today is called earning public trust and Um, I want to talk about a book that I read probably 20 years ago and we well I guess anyways it's called the um the four agreements and it's a practical guide to personal freedom by Don Miguel [clears throat] and I have to say it's you know people read books that kind of transform them in some way. It's just the beauty of the books. And this one, I'm just going to read off the four agreements. Um, be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best. And the most important one to me and the one
030that um has I thought about the most was be impeccable with your word. Um, and I and granted, you know, we're human. We screw up and sometimes we're not impeccable with our word, but I really try to to do what I say I'm going to do. And if I don't think I'm going to do it, then I try to never say it. I don't know how you feel about that. And then will um >> I I think it has to be with government to earn public trust. It has to be right. We have to start with that. I think some of the other topics we did today about having the public more involved. Um personnel born would be excellent. Um I think we could do a whole podcast on earning public trust which we might
031have as another topic. >> Right. >> Yeah. I think um we're gonna kind of dip our toes in the water today, but we will be we will be coming back to this topic because there's no way we can cover it in time left. But I I did want to mention uh before the next podcast is that if the people running our town make a promise to us, uh I would expect them to keep it, especially if it's it's on camera. We'll we'll get more into the details next time, but I mean, if you promise us that uh we're only going to pay a certain amount of money for as long as that person's there, and it's all recorded. It's not like anybody's making up anything. Um, then if you want to earn the public's trust,
032then I think you need to keep your word or find a way to say it. And we were told in 2021 that uh 750,000 would be paid by the town towards the public safety building. And this is the project that had a couple of other processes that sort of disintegrated. Um but I think this one was the most important one. And then by 20 late 22 early 23 I started hearing about these again overspending problems because I'm not going to call them deficits because there's no such thing. And I don't know, we we'll be getting into this more, but I I I just think people really need to think think about what they're saying and can they can they support it for the time that they're saying. Um, did you want anything just to say?
033Oh, I just I think those are four great things for anyone in public service or even member of the public that's working for their community. >> Yeah, >> they seem pretty basic and helpful. >> Yeah, I think for anybody working with the don't take it personally cuz you know people will get annoyed >> or they might they can be totally jubilant. they can be totally annoyed >> and that is the beauty of working with the public and I think if >> you don't feel comfortable with those things you know maybe there's other places the private sector you're not going to be exposed to the public that much all right so uh we will meet again I'm not sure when we'll figure that out but if you want to be a co-host on the show for
034a conversation or you'd like to email us with issues you'd like talked about. It's badg girlsandgmail.com. So, thank you to all our listeners and I think uh the show is the audience is growing. Um we'll be uh getting the word out. >> Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to co-host this conversation. >> Okay. We'll see you in I don't know two weeks, three weeks, [music] four weeks. >> [music]