Planning Board (January 8th, 2026)

001I can hear you. Okay. Can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Good. >> Perfect. >> Apparently, we're waiting. We're waiting for Gold's to come on. And you you don't you? >> No, I haven't been able to get in touch with them. >> Well, I have two minutes still anyway. So, >> and um the roses I think I told them probably 7:45, you know, I I don't So, but uh if need to, we can, you know, get them on early. They're coming remotely. >> Oh, good. Okay. So, and what did you tell Doug? Was he going to just >> He was going to hop on around. >> Around 7:30. >> I told him I would text him. He's He just said before he left he'll hop on at 7:30. >> Okay. I was

002going to say I don't think we'll be at T. Certainly won't be at 7:30. Okay. And we won't need him the entire time. I just want him to explain a few things from his point of view. Too bad Scott isn't here because I think he was interested in that. But we can obviously you can watch the tape of >> not tonight. >> Apparently he's in France. All right. All right. Well, we're we're at 7:15, so why don't we at least get going and get through meeting minutes and some other things until hopefully JM Goldson pops on soon. All right. So, um, Mac, you can count us down when you're ready. Good evening everyone and welcome to the Ashlin Planning Board meeting of Thursday, January 8th, first one of the new year. I want to remind

003um everyone that the meeting is being broadcast and recorded. Um I will call the meeting to order right on time at 7:15. And um looking at the clerk's report, the chair and clerk's report, we have received uh three emails by my count from from unique sources uh since our last meeting. Um one of these involved getting information about 16 West Union Street, which I think Melissa and Jasmine uh took care of. Another one was in regard to the in-law apartments, um which we're going to discuss tonight. Um, I think Jasmine answered that one as well. And the final one was, um, regarding a property at Cross Street, and you probably saw those emails go back [clears throat] and forth. Becca, it the email went out to a lot of different people across town hall. Becca

004ended up kind of spearheading um, that one and I jumped in a little bit at the end as as well. Um, so if anyone has any further questions about those, um, they can ask. We may or may not know the answers. U, moving on to public comments. Um, I will open it up to public comment. All right. >> Hi, how are you? >> Oh, okay. Thank you. Oh, thanks Kate. >> Katherine Dersik, 11 Rodman Road. Um, I have a couple comments and questions. So, the committee for implementation of the comprehensive plan that was last left off with it was going to go forward with the um planning board and select board and I wanted to find out the status of that. >> Yes. Uh, we were going to report on the status uh later. Actually,

005I was going to um ask Anna. Anna, you were going to I don't know if you had a chance to do this, but obviously we just went through the holidays. Uh you were going to reach out to Yolanda um to see about a process of how to start initiating a process for forming that committee. Were you able to do that or was the holiday season is that something obviously we need to go forward within the new year? >> I just sent Can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes. >> I just sent her an email today. Um, so my hope is that post holidays we'll move this forward as soon as possible. >> All right, sounds good. Over the holidays it wouldn't have gotten far anyway. So, um, all right, next question. >> Thank you. I

006just as a participant in the to your process have a vested interest in that not getting lost. >> Absolutely. Then I just um this is a comment so I know it's on the agenda later but it's it's more a little bit general that when there's a bylaw that really needs to be published like there's a public hearing but I'm coming to the public hearing I'm interested any bylaw change I hope every citizen resident is interested in but we're going to hear it for the first time and now like I feel like that's not productive to having the hearing so and I know the planning board has in the past had more than one hearing ing if there was a new bylaw. So, I hope that that will continue, but I feel like as part of

007the process, I'm requesting that that the draft gets published as it's advertised for the public to come comment. >> Yeah. Um I agree. I actually with the start of things in the new year, [snorts] I actually wasn't even sure that this was going to be on our agenda for today. Um so, it does need to get out there. it is in a form where um we are going to be able to comment on it and change it. I've kind of been going through it with a trying with a fine tooth comb. So there is opportunity to participate here. Um and uh yeah, but like you're right, it should be out there so that people can see it. It is ex what we have right now. The draft is exactly the same as the warrant, but

008that doesn't mean that people have it in their hands. So, >> um, and I guess the third thing, since I don't see Mark here, I'm just gonna, um, thank you and wish you a happy new year because that's something he would do. So, [laughter] >> thank you. >> Hi, CC Ducet, 31 Fatima Drive. I'm the director of Massachusetts for safe technology and there are some initiatives going forward right now up in Washington DC that I wanted to keep you apprised of and ask for your participation in. So I sent out an email last night there. Um, you may remember that the FCC, the Federal Communications Commission, was sued back in 2021 for ignoring 11,000 pages of evidence of harm in the public record on wireless radiation risks. And the judges found the FCC to be

009arbitrary and capricious when they reaffirmed their 1996 public radiation exposure limits. And so the courts remanded it back to the FCC to account for radiation impact on children, the elderly, those with existing health conditions, electromagnetic radiation sensitivities, plus everything else living in the environment, the birds, the bees, and the trees. It's been four years, and the FCC has done nothing. But now they're doing a full court press with the FCC and the industry. The FCC has opened up docket 25276. They did it in December. The initial comment period was through December 31st. And now we're in the reply comment. And anybody is welcome to in uh input new comments into the public record. Basically, what they're going to do is strip complete local control from where cell towers can be placed in our community. So,

010if this does not get stopped, you can literally wake up with no input, no warning, and they're going to be out there putting a cell tower out in front of your home. So, I am asking that Ashlin take a look at the documents that are filed in that public record. you will find organizations all across the country um mayors, cities all over saying, "Whoa, you have no right to strip our town of local control." So, I would like to ask that Ashlin also consider putting something in that public record because if we don't speak up once those cell towers go up, there's really nothing we can do about it. Um, and then there are, you know, they're not ones to put all their eggs in any basket. There are also bills out there that they

011are filing at the federal level that would also strip local control from our planning board, our zoning board, and our municipality. So, I'm asking that you look for the email that I sent last night, take a look at the public records. Some of the folks who sued the FCC have called through already what's been filed. It could be one sentence saying, "Yes, we agree with the, you know, XYZ cities or organizations that have filed on this, but I would like to see Ashlin get into the public record if we can." And then there's another international effort that's going on that you just might want to be aware of. Um, some of you might know dry January and parch where people kind of give up alcohol for the month because it's been a long holiday season.

012There's an international effort now called Off February to encourage people to join in and take social media off of their personal devices and reclaim the time that we had for our lives and our families. So, I will send you something on that. That's just a little fun thing. Lastly, I wanted to give you a quick update on the bills that are filed in Massachusetts. You may know that I helped New Hampshire pass the first law in the country to investigate wireless radiation risks to people in the environment. They came out with a groundbreaking commission report and one of their recommendations after looking at the science was that cell towers should never be closer than 1,500 ft or 1,640 ft or 500 meters. That's where the death and neurotoxicity rates start coming down from cell tower

013damage. And we have a bill with Senator Seir that has now been reported out favorably from the Consumer Protection Committee that would do what New Hampshire has already done. We also have a bill that's still alive to give everybody the right to opt out of these toxic utility smart meters for gas, water, and electric that are being imposed on our homes. So, I hope that the town will seriously consider allowing everybody who asks to have a no fee opt out because when you get sick with electromagnetic radiation syndrome, you kind of lose your job. You don't have a revenue stream to pay a tariff just to access your public utilities. Any questions? >> Any questions from the board? >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. Um don't see any public comment online. All right. So

014we will move on to public meeting section of our agenda. Do you want to do the introductions there Jasmine? >> So we actually from >> from James B. Okay, that should be fine. Okay, so we actually have a representative from JM Goldson with us. We have um Blavio who's going to be giving a presentation of a draft overview of the housing production plan. And once he's finished with his presentation, then you'll be able to ask questions at the end. Wonder if the procurement stuff would be interesting for me or helpful. I made a note. >> We're just going to connect the laptop via Zoom in just a second and then be able to continue the presentation. I'm sorry about the tea. That's terrible. What was going on? >> The tea broke. >> Oh, >> from

015from Boston. You want to let him know that it might be Okay. Oh, great. Just Okay, great. Okay, perfect. Um, well, good night. My name is Flavio. I am the I am an community planner in Jame Goldson. Um, you've probably met Austin and Jen. I have also been part of the complent process and now I'm part of the housing production plan process. Um, just to mention that if there is something that you don't get because of my accent, please just um I you can tell me and I can repeat any idea that you need. Um, Jen was going to be here, but she had an impromptu um mer surgery. So, yep, we had to go in the room. Okay, so um today I'm going to going to be presenting the housing needs assessment for the

016housing production plan. Um, this is our agenda for today. Um first I'm going to talk about housing production plans the what is its purpose and why are we doing this then I'm going to present the housing needs assessment and the the key takeaways from our analysis and then u we will talk a little bit about the next steps and the planning process. So first our consultant team um well you you've met Jen she is the project uh director and manager she's the founder of JM Gton and me yours truly um I'm the project assistant in this project so first background so um what is a housing production plan it is a state recognized tool is it's a state recognized and incentive based policy tool that guides and helps helps local decision makers to respond to

017housing needs. Housing needs evolve are dynamic and they change over the years. So the housing the housing production plan influences the location, the pace um and the type of housing that a spec in a specific town needs. It is very important to mention that Ashland's current housing production plan is valid until May 23rd in this year. So it has like four months like a little bit over four months. Um this is our way of doing housing production plans. Um it's this is a diagram that we made at the office. It's our eight stage um of the housing process or the housing planning process I'm sorry. So right now we are in this second stage um in which we are understanding the current situation in Ashland and then we are going to the third stage in

01888 um we have a forum a community forum on January the 20th in which we will receive ideas and feedback from the community. Um we then after that we we will go to our fourth stage in which we will propose we will create a d a draft plan and we will propose some strategy ideas. In our [snorts] fifth stage called testing, we will bring those strategy ideas to you. So you can give us your feedback on on those and then we need to decide we we have two more meetings with the planning board and ideally we would need to invite the select board so we can decide which strategies stay in the plan and which was which ones we can take out. And finally um in organizing this is our seventh stage. Um we will

019create a five-year action plan with timelines and um responsible entities. We will assign responsible entities to each strategy that ideally will um fulfill those strategies in the next five years. And finally in committing um both the planning board and the select board need to approve the plan before we send it to the state for approval. uh the order in which those appro um votes happen. Um that doesn't matter like you like planning board can come first or select board can come first that um that will not alter the the product. >> Yes. We will >> turn your mic on. >> Sorry, I was asking about um the number of meetings again that a after tonight we would expect two more meetings is in the yellow and orange stages. >> Yes. Yes. Um we I will

020talk more about that in the next steps uh part but yes we have two more meetings and ideally we would like to invite the select board so they can also weigh in on the strategies. >> Okay, great. Thank you. Um so affordable housing um which is a topic that we have been talking a lot about in Massachusetts. It is regulated by chapter 4B and chapter 4B encourages municipalities to keep 10% affordable housing stock on their housing units. Um this is measured by something that is called the subsidized housing inventory. Ashland currently has a subsidized housing inventory of 5.8%. 8% and which we will talk about the concept of safe harbor in a bit but basically that is below the benchmark which is a reason why Ashland is not in safe harbor right now. We acknowledge

021that there are like three projects in the pipeline and I will also talk about that in a bit. Um but right now this is the current situation. Um so what is the purpose of a housing production plan and the biggest one is to regain safe harbor and to try to remain over the 10% or to remain in a status in which the Sony board of appeals has its full power. Safe harbor is a situation in which a Sony board of appeals has its full power and can deny for TV permits. um when the Sony board of appeals well or when the town is not in safe harbor the zoning board of appeals loses that power and the state can overrule its um its mandates. Uh so that is the first one which is I think

022one of the most important ones and the second one is like hearing from the residents uh hear what the community actually wants what what are your goals your interests your vision for your community um identify well then transform those visions into future policies based on those needs and another one which is a really good reason to have a housing production plan is because it's a really good tool to access state grants especially through the community uh one stop for growth applications which is a single application um that um it's it's a single application that that that community that municipalities can fill out so they can apply to multiple grants at the same time. And a housing production plan is one of the um incentives that the state takes to um to increase the possibility for

023a community to um access those those grants. Um so what is which are the components of a housing production plan? um first the housing needs assessment which I'm going to present today then development and constraints and opportunities analysis um talking about like the zoning um the environmental constraints then the fiveear goals which and the strategies which are things that we we are going to talk later in this planning process so um so far so good do you have any questions yes >> my question is how many more housing units do we need to hit the 10% we're at 5.8 Yes. So I have some maths here. Um basically and and I'm going to talk about this later, but something that I can say at this point is there are three um for TV projects in

024the pipeline. Uh the sanctuary um 55 West and their residences. um basically approving or well building the sanctuary and one more would take would reach 10% and would be over 10%. Building the three of them would take you to like 12.7%. And building only 55 West Union and the residences that doesn't um get you to 10%. So it's at least a century and and one of the other two. [snorts] Um there are also different ways to reach safe harbor which we can talk about later. Um one is like building these projects actually like having the ACHI units um ready for occupancy but also if you approve these 4TB permits after having a housing production plan you can access something called incremental growth um that changes the formula a little bit. We can talk about that

025later. First I'm going to present the housing needs assessment. Okay. Um so this is the current situation of Ashland. Um we have gone over different sources like the US census and the American community survey and some others from the um from the state. Um so and these are the main takeaways. Um Ashland population is expected to grow. Um it's growing a lot and is aging a lot. So it went from um 11 so the the senior population went from 11% in 2010 to and is going to go to 20% in 20150. Um not only that the population is also getting more ethnically diverse which is something that is been happening in the state as a whole and in the region. Um and usually population growth needs housing production to accommodate those demographic changes. This is

026something natural that has been happening in Ashland being a town that is so attractive and people want to come and live here. Um another situation happens with households in which households um have been getting smaller. Um that is happening that has been happening in the state as well but is in Ashland households the household size was not reducing that much but in the last few years it has been reducing and it has been projected to reduce even more. So househ before there were like three or 2.9 people per household and we're probably going to project that to like 2.2 or 2.1 in the next few decades. So in the sense that households decrease then the market needs um smaller housing units like one bedrooms, two bedrooms, studios. Um, and something that happens in Massachusetts or

027in in northeastern in New England is that some of these housing structures were built a long time ago and the needs were different at that time and now there is a growing demand for smaller and more accessible units um for older adults or maybe younger people or single people. Um, another thing that is happening right now in Ashland is that it lacks this thing that we call the missing middle. The missing middle are um housing types that have between two or four units like two families, three families, four families. And and in fact, only 4% of Ashland's housing structures are two or three families. And as we can see in this chart, in this pie chart, 92% are single families. What happens is that usually um those are rental units and that constrains the housing

028market and makes um house the um housing costs more expensive. Um I have a definition here. So what is the missing middle? Um as I said it's these are smaller units that are between single families and big um developments. So these are like duplexes or town homes, forplexes like those buildings that are very gentle are like like their density are very gentle. They're not that tall and they will not um alter that much the urban profile of your of your of the town um as in Framingham for example that they have like really big developments. So, and they also because of the size and because of the density they have, they usually provide more affordable, walkable, and diverse housing choices. >> Can I ask a question? >> The the forplexes like because we have a

029it seems like we have a lot of condos in Ashlin that are forplexes. Do [snorts] they are are they part of the four that that the four to eight units there is all in that slice? >> Yes. So, this is Yes. This is data that comes from the assessor's database and in the assessors the um the labels are one family um or single family, two family, three family and then four to eight weight. So the the fact of like 4% I'm only talking about two to three um like two family and three family >> the real number of four num of forplexes for like of four family um structures I don't have that real number >> that is data that I I couldn't find >> okay and then about the housing supply um there is

030this concept we call a healthy vacancy rate usually um housing um economists um don't agree that the all the housing units in a town or in a municipality should be occupied. There is this idea of a healthy vacancy rate that provides the opportunity to for economic for mobility for housing mobility um and provides opportunity for people to be moving or um as as as it is as it is needed like it supports mobility and it prevents housing shortages during that time. Um right now in Ashland um the the rental um vacancy rate is in 4.8 and the ownership vacancy rate is in 1.9. Um there are many sources about this. There is actually this is not written in a stone. So it is more about ranges. Usually housing experts um agree that a healthy rental

031vacancy rate is between 5 to 8% and a healthy ownership vacancy rate is between 1 to 2%. Um so Ashlin is not very low but it could have a little bit like it could insert a a little bit more housing units into the market. Um and then um there is I'm going to introduce another concept. This is desert rental. Desert rental. I'm sorry. Desert is this desert thing. Uh desert rental. So, uh desert rental is in a situation in which um over 80% of the housing stock is not rental and that usually limits housing choices because sometimes families that need to move more or maybe younger families that don't have the opportunity to to be first-time home buyers, they need to access rental choices. Um in this in this part, Ashlin is actually doing very

032well. 25% of the um housing stock is rental and but compared to like 10 years ago it was less than 20%. So there was a desert rental in Ashland. So in this situation it's it's doing pretty good. And finally um this is also something very important that we found out during an our analysis. Um Ashland is facing economic challenges as the reg as the region is becoming wealthier. So the median household income in Ashland declined in the last 10 years but at the same time the area medium income increased and this is something that you can see in this chart. Um so this might be bringing affordability problems to people that want to buy um or or want to rent houses in in Ashland. [snorts] And finally, um I'm actually going to go to this

033one first. So I'm going to talk about the area median income. The area median income is a um is the mean the middle income of the region. It is a federal calculation that is used to um for elig eligibility for affordable housing programs. Um the the area median income is something that changes around the country within the country. In this in this case in the case of like the Boston metro area which geographically for for the calculation of this it involves a lot in this case it is $160,000 $900 $160,900. This is the medium income and this value also changes according to the size of the household and it also changes um according to different needs and and different geographies. [music] So something that is very important is that to to see that in this

034in the greater Boston area um in this region that for example a person a one person household someone that is living by by by themselves in the extremely low income limit that means that it's that that person is earning 30% of the area minimum income is living with $35,000 per year. Okay. So and and these numbers change these numbers change between like the number of people in the household. It changes um on what is the income limit. We have this thing that is called extremely low income, very low income or low income. And then moderate low income which is what what comes after low income. So these are a lot of words and a lot of numbers and I know this is this is um it's it's a lot of information but this is important

035because in Ashland so now is then I'm I'm going back to this this slide. In [snorts] Ashland, we have like these different income levels and we have like how many households are costbururdened. Cost burden is when you pay more than 30% of your income in housing costs and severely cost burdened is when you pay more than 50% of your income in housing costs. And you can see that in ex in the extremely low income limit. So these are people that are living with these numbers in the year almost like 60% of them are severely cost um costburdened. So this means that almost 60% of these households are paying more than 50% of their income in housing costs. Um, so for example, for this person that earns $35,000 per year, this person is paying $17,500 in

036housing costs each year. And so the summary is that of almost 40% of all cost burden households, so these are households that pay over 30% or over 50% of their income in housing costs. 40% are in the extreme low income range. And this is evidence that Ashland needs deep affordable housing. Not only affordable housing at 80% but maybe even deeper, maybe at 50 or maybe a 30. So far so good. >> Question please. Is this pre-tax dollars? >> That's pre-ax dollars. Yes, pre-ax. Okay, >> that is pre-ax. Yes. Another before we talk about the the pipeline and the do you have another question? >> Um well as I mentioned before currently Asheland is not in safe harbor which means which this reduces the Sony boards of appeals local power. Um Ashland is in 5.8% in

037their subsidized in your subsidized housing inventory. Um it was in safe harbor until 2023 because of the Arbella approval but the Arbella was never built. So those um units were never counted in the AHI. That is the reason why this percentage is very low. Um so approving the three ongoing for TV projects in the pipeline would bring the SHI percentage to 12.7 as I said before. Um actually you don't need to approve all three. If you approve um the sanctuary and one more you would you would reach 10%. Um so that is one of the ways in which Ashland can reach safe harbor um going over the 10%. There is another way that is the incremental production. So when a town has an an state approved housing production plan and that is very important the

038the the housing production plan is needs to be approved by the state not only by the local boards. When that happens um you can access something that is called the incremental growth or the incremental production. If Ashland in one calendar year approve no um builds I'm sorry approves s 0.5% of their housing units it gets one year of safe harbor and if it approves 1% of its housing units it gets two years of safe harbor. That was that was what happened last time. Well, last time um the um you approved in 2021 your housing production plan and then you approved the URL which was like 180 units I think um that 1% was 66 units so you got two years of safe harbor until 2023. Um so in this sense right now in according to

039census 2020 Ashan had um 7500 units. Well actually 7,495. So the 1% would be 75 units. Basically approving any of these would give you two years of safe harbor. Very important. After the housing production plan is approved by the state. If the house is not approved by the state it's the same as nothing. Okay. So it is very important to like see the orders the order of the actions so that you can regain safe harbor again. >> Can [snorts] I just reiterate right there? So to Flavio's point, if we don't have a current approved housing production plan, you cannot meet any of those incremental growth numbers. You have to have an active approved plan. So if it expires or it's not approved, the only way to do that is by reaching your 10% shi. Does

040that mean we're just kicking the can down the road by doing this process? >> No. Our housing production plan is current until May of 2026, which is why we're updating it right now so we can send it for approval so it can remain active and then be active for another 5 years. So we won't have to hopefully do this for another five years after this. >> But having a housing production plan by itself doesn't get you safe harbor. Okay. So that is also something that we should have clear. Um yes. And the other thing that it's something that was um it was a conversation in the previous housing planning process was the concept of inclusionary zoning which um inclusionary zoning bylaw u mandates a percentage of affordable units uh within market rate developments. um if

041or or or it offers incentives. For example, if a developer uh provides affordable units in in in their development, they get density bonuses for example like they can build more units or they get another floor or they get a bigger F or they can also pay a fee in lie of the requirement and that sometimes goes to the housing trust or goes to um the town so they can use it in our projects or they can use it in their own affordable housing. Um, currently Ashland doesn't have an inclination inclusionary zoning bylaw. Only the pawn street overlay district has some kind of inclusionary zoning. But that would be another um good policy tool so you can enhance the production of affordable housing townwide and not only in the 40b um zoning district or in the

042pawn street um overlay district. [snorts] Um and finally um we are so this is a process that is coming immediately after the ambition Ashland comprehensive plan and this was recently endorsed by town meeting on November last year. Um and the vision in the comprehensive plan related to housing um there were um two main points. One was about enhancing um downtown through m by creating a mixed use village and the other one was the other other one was to manage neighborhood evolution by creating context sensitive residential projects. So it is very important that we in the next steps that I talked about a little bit ago we are building on the house on the comprehensive plan. Um the the CP has seven strategies related to housing which are these ones and we are planning on basing

043our strategies on those ones. Um maybe not like copy pasting them. Maybe we can consolidate two I think there are two of these. I think there these are the two A9 or 2 A10 that talk about sustainability. Maybe those two can become one single strategy in the housing production plan because usually housing plans have fewer strategies. Um but we are going to build on on this plan that we just finished. Um any question? Thank you. Um so next steps um there is a public forum in two weeks um in on January the 20th at a community center. Um we will launch a community survey that is already done. we just need to launch it so people can also give us their feedback. Um we will um also provide different online resources and we finished the

044interviews with community leaders. Um this was some of you I' I've been talking with some of you I think and [snorts] then we have two more planning board meetings. Um and ideally we would like the select board to be invited to them. Um so we can also talk about the different strategies. And finally um well this is what I just said but in a diagram in which you can see how all these um dates everything will happen before the current plan expires. So you can still have a valid plan and you can access the incremental housing production. Thank you. >> Thank you. Do you guys have any other questions? >> Yeah. Thank you so much. >> Will you be with us on the 20th when we do the >> I I won't be able to.

045>> No. Okay. Will Jen be there? >> Yes. Probably Jen and Austin. >> Okay. >> All right. Great. Thank you for the Thank you for the update. >> Thank you for your attention. Is that a presentation that you'll um that can be made available um and given to the planning board? >> Okay. Yeah. Great. Thank you. >> All right. Um next on our agenda is um 21 Olive Street. That is an ANR. Um I see Ed Rose is online. Um he is the applicant and um just uh full disclosure for this project I did submit to the town's clerk's office um an appearance of conflict of interest form. Um the roses are my friends and until we moved longtime neighbors. So um I'm very familiar with the pro with the property that he is talking

046about um on this ANR. So but with that I will turn it over to Jasmine. Absolutely. Give me just a moment while I get this plan up. So, we have to do we have a very simple ANR in front of us which an ANR simply means it's it stands for approval not required. And what that means is that there is not a subdivision required for either the um division of lots or for the combination of lots. So what Mr. Rose is proposing to do is he's proposing to take three lots on Olive Street. One of them is they are all existing lots. Two of them have existing access and frontage. One of them is currently landlocked in the center. And what Mr. Rose is proposing to do is combine all three lots into one lot.

047That way they have absolute access um and frontage for the one single lot now instead of having one land loted. Can you just sum this up? >> Is there any paper copy of that in the >> There's that one right there. That's just fold one in the center. >> Did you receive this in your meeting material? >> It It was in the material. Yeah. So yeah. So if you I guess I have got the >> Thank you so much, Flavia. I hope you get home well and safely. You're okay to get back to the commuter rail. Okay. Thank you. can't come in with it. Look, Jack. >> I don't think he's meaning to talk though. >> I don't know that he meant to do that. That was Ed. >> It didn't sound like him. >>

048I don't know if there's somebody in the background. It sound like he was talking with somebody in the background. >> Sorry, I'm at a restaurant. >> Thank you. Next is TV resort and it's loud music and all that. So, >> all right. >> Um, well, Ed, just as background, do you just want to explain I I know understand the project, but do you just want to explain um um what you were what you're doing with the lots and how you came about came about having the lots. So, what happened years ago, there was a developer that wanted to buy the two acres behind our house, and we went to my neighbor and said, "You have two choices. Either you sell to us or we're moving." And he sold them to us. So, it's a landlocked

049piece of land. And actually, the planning board was not happy with that because it's landlocked, but we bought it. We've been paying taxes and maintaining it and all that, but we always said at some point we'd like to have an access maybe a a >> Oh, you there? >> Yes. >> All right. Good. So, anyways, all right. There you go. So, anyways, we want to have an access maybe a subdivision, but it's for our kids, not for us. So, I have no desire to do anything with that property. Um, now in my lifetime, I don't need it. And um, the the other piece of property is still left like an acre. We haven't decided exactly what we're going to do with it. It has a house on it, has a barn on it or a

050garage on it, and it's over an acre and we just want to subdivide that property from our property. That's all I want to do. So by combining that small piece that half acre that we need um in the back we create um a new lot for us. >> So just to review now that I have the plan it's a lot easier to explain. So these dash lot lines are the existing lots. So as this exists this is one existing lot here. This is one existing lot here. And this third parcel is another existing lot. This existing lot is landlocked. You can access it via this 20 foot wide access easement. Mr. Rose owns all of these properties. I believe >> yes. >> And so they're all held in common ownership. So this bottom parcel is

051the one that he does not own. So he would like to take all of his parcels that he's owned, make it one complete contiguous parcel, remove the property lines, remove the easement, and then he would have this would be one large parcel with over 500 ft of frontage on Olive Street instead of one landlocked parcel in the back and two smaller. This one is a pre-existing non-conforming lot as it stands. This is a pre-existing lot. Um, so he'll just combine them for one lot. It'll be one single family residential lot. So, and the the upper lot um >> will remain >> the upper lot is already a separate lot and not involved in this conversation. Okay. >> And this easement will be extinguished once these are combined. >> Exactly. Yeah. So you can see we're

052adding 80 feet to our 80 feet, you know, times the the length and we're leaving the other one acre of the corner lot of nine Olive Street as one unit there too. Yeah. So, so basically these kind of questions come in terms of does the lot being and correct me if I'm wrong Jasmine, but does the lot being created um does it have the proper frontage? Obviously, it has will have more than enough frontage. It has obviously more than enough area to be a lot and does it meet the rule of 22 >> and also does it have adequate access? Obviously >> access meaning >> meaning the access from Olive Street. They don't have to create a way. So it's that's what the approval not required is doesn't need a subdivision to create a way

053into the lot. So it has an adequate existing >> it already has a driveway basically curve cut. >> Yes, pretty much. Or access from the roadway. >> Okay. >> Anyone have any questions on this? >> Um he was very clear when he started off that he's not planning to do anything at this stage. It is just to kind of clean up the whole area. But my question to you is does now that when you do that this is almost like a 4 acre >> lot, right? >> Yeah. >> Does that at some point give an opportunity for a multi-family unit? >> It could potentially anything could really. I mean, you can't we can only approve or deny it if we think it meets subdivision control. If we think it needs a subdivision or if it

054doesn't. So, we can't we can't say deny it because we're afraid of it could be future developed. It has to be approved under certain criteria. >> Thank you. >> It could to your question it could. >> Yeah. >> I mean, right now it's pretty straightforward, but there is an opportunity in the future. Thank you. >> Are there any other questions? I know Anna, you're out there, too. Do you have any questions? >> Nope. Seems pretty standard to me. >> Any questions? I know >> you you could make a record for you can make a statement for the record that you you are familiar with people on that road but your this plan wouldn't benefit either of you in any way and your your vote wouldn't >> just you know obviously >> friends with people on

055this road obviously >> but you think you can vote fairly and equitably and nonbias >> like I would if I was a juror on a trial. I would obviously look at the information and evidence and >> give a fair decision on that. Of course, >> that's fair enough. Thank you. >> All right. If there's no other questions, I'll entertain a motion from the board. Can someone make the motion? >> I can try. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> I'll make a motion to >> for unless you >> approve >> unless unless people think we need more discussion. >> Okay. Wanted to make sure. Go ahead, Anna. >> Since there is none, I'll make a motion to approve TW 21 Olive Street A&R as proposed. >> Second that >> in a roll call vote I

056>> Anna Tesmani I know I >> and Trisha Kendall I. All right. So that is approved. >> Thank you very much everyone. >> Enjoy the rest of your evening. Okay. Thank Okay. Bye. Thank you. All right. I think just uh in regard to your point, [clears throat] I remember we had something before that the the we we cannot make a determination based on something that might happen in the future, right? That's not part of our >> what's you know what's in front of us. It only can be according to what the bylaw says about how a lot gets constructed. So, but just to make that point. Um, okay. The next uh and and so do we need to sign that on our way out? Is that >> Yes, but I will get the myar because

057I'll have you sign the paper and the myars because that's what they need to record. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Um the next thing on the agenda then is the in-law apartment um bylaw. And this and I think we have Doug Scott um hanging out there uh a little bit. So um this came up um when we passed the ADU bylaw in the spring. Uh actually shortly before town meeting um we had put together an ADU bylaw in response to the state's um regulation that we needed to do so and um and which we were kind of intending to do any way but we were waiting for those state regulations but shortly before town meeting um Doug who was the building commissioner Doug Scott made a point that um he felt in the way that

058we wrote the bylaw law, which was taking out the in-law apartment and inserting into it this ADU, which in our minds was kind of the the same thing. Um, in his mind was not. And I think that that in terms of, um, in in building commissioners, building inspectors, there has been some discourse about this that these they aren't the same in their minds. And so, um, unless you have a different introduction, Jasmine, I'll, um, ask Doug if he's there. Are you there, Doug? Yes. Uh, can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, I think >> Yes. Good evening, everybody. >> Yeah. I think it'd be great if you can just explain from from your perspective how these are different, how an when you go to permit something or look at an application, how

059is an ADU different from an in-law apartment and why you saw this as a problem? >> Sure. Um, so when this happened, let me let me start by saying when this happened and I was able to see it, um, I went to the town council, Lisa me, our town council, and I sat with her and I discussed with her my concerns, um, that the proposed ADU guidelines had a cuticile in it that would delete the in-law department section of our zoning ordinances. And she agreed with me that uh once that section of our zoning ordinances was deleted um that we could I could no longer permit uh an in-law apartment. Uh and and so that's prefacing what what I how this all came about. And so, um, there's a big difference between an ADU and

060an in-law apartment. So, an ADU under the, uh, uh, guidelines set down by the state is treated as a single family home. It's treated just like uh if you the home that you all live in uh it's if you know single family home that you own the property that it has specific requirements um it has its own address. It has its own um water and sewer. And um the if it's if it's built under uh like in a basement or an addition to it's built as a single family home uh with a fire separation barrier complete barrier separating the two uh structures, the two units, the two single two the two homes. um an in-law apartment. Uh it also requires two means of egress. The electrical electricity has to be separated out. The fire uh

061alarm devices would have to be separated out. So there's a substantial amount of work that's involved when you create an ADU uh either next to your attached to your existing single family home or like if somebody wants to build it in the basement. Now an in-law apartment um doesn't have to go through any of that. there is and also it it being a single family home you are going to be taxed for having two single family homes on your property. An ADU again is a considered a single family home. So you would be taxed for two two homes. So, an a in-law apartment is uh you could do it in the basement or you could build an addition on the side uh of your house, you know, attached to it, side or rear or wherever

062on top. And that only means one mean one means vgress. You don't have to separate out the uh fire alarm devices, the uh electrical systems, the heating systems, the uh the uh gas if you had gas um or or or anything else. And it's just uh it's it can be approved. Uh there's two ways it can be approved. Um it's very similar to what we had before. One way is if it satisfies uh the building officials uh requirements that it remain you have you still have the look and the feel of a single family home. Um you could grant them uh approval to build it without having to go for any special conditions or or go to the zoning board of appeals for a special permit. If you if they wanted to build it and

063it was attached or in the basement and they wanted to do something to create it that it did not look continue to look like a single family home, then they would go to the zoning board of appeals for special permit. Um, but still you would get away with not having to go through all of the expense and costs of uh of of uh that you would an ADU accessory dwelling unit. >> So Doug, when you >> sorry when you talk about the when you use the term when it looks like, you don't mean like how it what the physical appearance is like or or >> Yeah. you. So you don't want you don't so >> like if it's in a basement, right? It wouldn't have a physical appearance, right, >> from the outside. Yeah. Yeah.

064You you know you don't you you're not what you're not doing is you're not creating a a a two family. You're not turning that single family home into a two family. You're turning it. This is for people. You have an elderly parent. You have a a a child. You have uh you have somebody that wants to uh or needs help or wants is growing growing older and they want to uh uh you want to help take care of them. So you could easily do that with the in in-law apartment, but if you were to do it as an ADU, it's substantially more expensive. Um, and it's a a lot more work. >> So, when you're talking about the open access, like the open access, there's no door between the primary dwelling unit and the in-law

065apartment and the closed access, there is a door separating the primary unit from the in-law apartment, but those two units would still share like means of egress. Yes. >> It just means that there's a door but not a lot not a door that's meant to keep the other one out necessarily, right? Like >> Yes. I mean that, you know, we we've had some situations in in town in the past where, you know, somebody's mother wanted to or father wanted to uh didn't want to live alone in the big house anymore. Wanted to sell the house. They wanted to sell the house and they wanted to move in. They had a a a one of their children that said, "Sure, we'll we have a big house and and we can do a uh either an addition

066or we can do a a basement remodel." And they don't want they they still want to feel uh that they have their own space, so they want to have a door that they could walk on their side. um or u you know they wanted to be able to have their own space that people went and going. And so that's a closed that's the uh that's the the closed access unit. And the these these are both what we had. This in-law apartment very closely mirrors what we used to have before it was deleted accidentally when the town voted for the ADU. Um, so we're not, you know, Lisa, Lisa and I had met and Lisa drew this up um with uh with, you know, we Lisa and I worked on it and it's to keep it

067as similar as possible with uh with what we already had that unfortunately we lost. Does the does the closed access unit with the door go to the zoning board of appeals because it gets a little greater scrutiny because it is separating the units more? Is that why that one? >> Yeah. You know, I if if it's an if if it's an interior remodel like the basement >> Mhm. or or if they have ex a second floor remodel and they they created a unit up there or down in the basement and they want to have a door and nobody nobody's there. You know, nobody's going to know. It's not a big deal. Uh personally, as the as a building commissioner, I'm more apt to approve that. It's typically when you have build an addition and and

068you want to lock yourself into your own space and then and then that's when you know we would probably have them go for a special permit. And to be be honest with you, um I think we've sent I've sent maybe one or two in the five years or so that I've been in town. And the zoning board of appeals is it they're not they're not the type they're not a group that is that would turn it down. Um because listen, mom's 68 and I keep threatening my daughters that I'm going to we're going to sell the house and we're going to move in with one of them. Uh you know, they they're like, "We'll shoot you first." But um but you know, we all we all have elderly parents and we have family and it's

069and it's a good thing. And uh and this is the the easiest way that we can help um uh the public and the town's people in this in that need this type of help. >> Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that, you know, I didn't realize either at the time when we were working on the ADU that we were getting rid of something that was needed. And I think a little bit of and correct me if I'm wrong, Doug, like the history of this in in my practice in single family homes was that, you know, towns often had regulations about if you have a rental unit, right, in your home. You know, they they had regulations on that. And typically what made it potentially a rental unit was if you had not only a kitchen

070but an oven. It's the oven. if you had an oven in a second oven in the unit. It was a little red lights that went off that that could be a rental. Not a microwave, not a sink. You can have lots of sinks or refrigerators, but if you had an oven, it kind of signified two dwelling units, right? Um, but now with homes, there's lots of homes that have a kitchen in the basement and a second oven or, you know, it's it's it's not, and you and I, Doug, talked about this several years ago >> before the ADU state thing came up about >> um about what makes uh >> where's that line between what what's an ADU? What's And you had told me um it's not the oven anymore. it's really the the two

071means of egress like can't if you have a two means of egress and it looks like it could be a separate unit then maybe it is a separate unit right so um so that that's a little bit of history from my perspective about what makes this uh what's an ADU and what's um like an in-law apartment someone who's a part of your home kind of thing >> so so the other thing I want to tell you is that they can't rent it. >> I'm sorry. Is what >> the other thing about the in-law apartment, the big difference is that you can't rent the in-law apartment, >> right? It's not meant to be rented, right? >> Yeah. Well, you I mean, you you want to rent it to your child. Uh that's that's fine, but it

072can't be rented. You can't go in Verbbo or some rental >> online rental place and rent it out to strangers, >> right? Um they uh it's a it you know that's if you if you had to go for a special permit that would end up being recorded. Uh and and when you build an an in-law apartment um the building permit would specifically say it's an in-law apartment on it. So if you caught somebody, you know, I mean, you know, people spend a lot of money for their homes in Ashlin. >> And if you and you know, you get somebody that does to have an in-law apartment and then they start renting it out and the neighbors complaining, you have a case, the building official in the town, you know, has a case to say to

073the people, listen, we allowed this in-law apartment to be here, but you know, you can't rent it out. This isn't designed. It's not safe to have renters in here. Um, does it's not set up for, you know, for life safety situations, right? >> If there's a fire or you know, anything that would would happen. You know, an in-law apartment gets its own separate address so that the fire department, the police department know where to go. That's another big difference. and the in-law apartment is just part of the main house and so you know who is living in your house with you and it's a safety issue right situation >> right Angel did you have a question >> I guess my question was really how do you police the difference of in-laws apartments suddenly coming so

074and they don't have the safety so I mean I'm all I understand the need of them. But I guess that was my question. >> Police that difference. >> And Doug, do you have any >> Oh, sure. Um, yeah. You know, believe it or not, I get a lot of phone calls from the neighbors. So, we get phone calls about uh cars parked on the lawn, uh you know, parties. Uh we had a situation where somebody was trying to rent out their pool. Uh you know, and the neighbors were losing their minds. Uh so, so you know, we're not we're not the police. um uh you know, but if if we get complaints, we answer the those complaints and and what we do is we look up the permits and see what they were allowed to

075build and what they weren't allowed to build and uh and then we would uh go after the homeowner or the property and say, "Hey, what's going on here? You're not allowed to have m uh multiple units in in this. It's a single family, a home uh location. Um so that's basically how we, you know, police these situations. >> Yeah. So you can't know what's going on inside everyone's home, but as these you can't advertise it as a rental, and as things happen, they tend to reveal themselves is what you're saying. >> Yeah. It all ends up coming coming to the building official. >> Yes. So, so my um my take on this obviously is I I think there's a need in it. Like I said, Doug explained this to me a year ago about um

076about this and we're like, "Oh, uh oh, well, town meeting is like tomorrow, so we're just going to have to go ahead and and then um take care of this take care of this afterward." Um, but I do um have like as we go through this and I know um and and it may not all be in one session here, but I wanted to go through some things with the board and Doug can stay on or or not stay on uh Doug as as you as you wish. I really wanted to get um your explanation and your take on things obviously. Um, sure. >> But I think there's there's things I want to go through and I and there I think will be another pass at this to get it into the same language um

077as the new accessory dwelling unit so that really they they're kind of they work together closely and one can see the differences between the two. Um, does anyone have any general questions though before we go through it a little more specifically or or questions for Doug specifically or? >> Um, not necessarily for Doug, but I'm curious how does this come into our housing production plan? How is that is that not accounted for at all as a one family? >> It's it's a it's included in whatever your single family unit is. It doesn't it's not an additional unit. It's >> right. Same way it doesn't update your um an inlaw. I don't believe Doug, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe it needs an update to your septic system if it's >> No, you don't

078you don't have to do any updates to anything unless Well, you you you if you're on a septic system, if you're on town so water and sewer, you're fine. Uh but you know, if you you have a septic system, it's only designed for a certain number of rooms and you're adding rooms to it, then that may be a situation where they may have to uh go meet with the board of health and and and have somebody figure out what they need to do to to enlarge their septic system. >> Yeah. But for the most part, an ADU would be on the same water, the same sewer, the same electric as as that as the DW as the main house because it is just one house. >> Yeah, the in-law. Sorry. >> Oh, you the in-law.

079>> The in-law. Yeah. Sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You would it would be that would not probably not 99% sure it would not count in the um in your uh housing. Uh but but to be honest with you um we had a we had quite a run of illar apartments uh few years ago. Uh but that has slowed down. I think when the economy uh and people start uh building the construction slowed down quite a bit um that I've been hearing from all the departments all the other towns and uh I think it's going to pick up uh we do have an aging population and um and uh you know some people aren't lucky enough to have a couple hundred thousand two two 200 to $300,000 to build uh an ADU

080whereas you could do spend 80 grand and and build a ILR apartment. >> So um >> can I ask a question residential? So >> um like I know I know what an in-law apartment is. Is there anything that says that I just don't I want to refinish my basement. I'm going to add this great room with a kitchenet and two bedrooms and not inart closer. >> Uh what would happen is you would the permit would say this is the permit would say on it this is not an inlaw apartment. Um and if there were issues uh you could get into some real serious problems like with your insurance company. If you ever had a fire, somebody was found living in there. Um, >> but it would be family anyways, right? I think your question >>

081doesn't doesn't really matter who would who would be there. If somebody were injured and the fire department had to come there, they had the insurance company had to come there. One of the places that the insurance companies go to is the building department to see what we have on file. I I think the question is so if you came uh if if someone uh put in an application of a basement and they put in a bedroom and a bathroom and there's kitchenet and you're like well it's just for us right we're not even having grandma live there or anything. I think the difference is that um Doug's going to look could potentially look at that unit and say, "Hey, it looks like an ADU, right?" And >> it's an in-law apartment, >> right? So, it

082looks like an ADU. So, in order to say, "No, it's not an ADU. It's actually an in-law apartment." Okay. >> And and that's that's allowed. It's it is like two homes in one, >> but it's not this other version. I mean, like back to your point, I could have two kitchens in my house if I wanted to. So, >> and it's not an in-law. So, that's I guess that's my question like >> is it a big deal either way? >> I think it's the way it will be permitted from egress point of view, right? If it is part of a renovation of another floor, it will be judged from permitting point of view, how many egress you have and things like that. So it's not labeled as in-laws but from egress point of view it'll

083be looked at it as a big picture. Doug correct me if my understanding is wrong because now you will have >> that floor plus the main floor kind of looked at as a big picture. I looked at egress >> as a holistic versus just [snorts] the renovation. So that may be very different than if it was just an in-law uh apartment. In this case, for example, the egress rules would be very different than what you would if you had renovated or expanded your space. >> Does that make sense? >> That's cor that's correct. That's correct. You know, it also comes down to uh do you want to take the chance you want to you want to, you know, like was mentioned that uh I'm going to finish off my basement. I'm going to put a

084little uh I want to put a little uh uh >> kitchenette in there. Um uh you know, and then and then you finish it and then you move a you have somebody illegal illegally wire up a stove, uh put a full-size refrigerator in there in, you know, instead of a mini fridge and things like that. uh you know, you want to you want to take a chance on the your biggest investment, something happening, go go for it. Go at it. No skin off our our back. Uh but I find that most people want to do things legally. Um they don't want issues. They don't want to worry about anything. and those those you know you have an elderly person or a child with disability and you're creating a space in your basement for them to

085live and uh you know you want to do you want to be safe you want them to be safe and you want it to be done correctly and that's the reason why to be honest with you that's the reason why we're we're bringing forward this in-law apartment uh to put it back into the zoning ordinances. >> I think if I may, Angel, so right now, anybody who wants to do any addition, they should by law come to the building department, pull a building permit. At this point, our building commissioner would look at this, look at that plan, and if he felt at this time that that's an additional living space, he would say, "You have to apply for an ADU." As our bylaws are written right now, there is no provision for him to allow

086an in-law apartment by law. Right? So right now currently by law you cannot build an in-law apartment. You have to either have a single family home or an ADU by approving this provision allows the building commissioner to use their responsibility to make the determination that this is in fact an in-law and not an ADU based on the information the applicant provided them. This is all something that's determined interior by the building department. So they're the ones that determine if it's a single family home, if it's an in-law, if it's an .DU. in this bylaw gives him the ability to grant that as an in-law versus an ADU based on who's living there and how it will be used. >> I think my question was does does the current code basically >> doesn't allow for in

087I have a living space in my basement with a bathroom, right? >> I have a refrigerator down there. I'm going to put a kitchenette. Like there's nothing in the code like if I applied for a permit to put this kitchenette that would say I couldn't do that. No, I think it's just >> so that was I was just Is there anything that sort of restricts you from doing it? Because I feel like >> there is a there is a cusp that it becomes a unit. I don't know if it's a kitchenet or a bedroom. >> I think it's I think it's just that um like in that case it's obviously going to be, you know, not not an apartment, right? But I think I think you get to this point where it's like, well, it

088looks like a duck and it quacks quacks like a duck. I think you got an ADU there. I went to the building department with my plan and I had this kitchenet in there. They would then say, >> "Yes, it's the building department. >> You're going to need to sub substantially separate this with fire because we think it's an ADU or then that's when it would get bounced." >> It's kind It's kind of like the conversation. >> That's what I I'm like right now there's nothing that prevents you from putting an addition that allows your mother to move in. >> It's It's kind of like the same thing with like a bedroom. Like what makes a bedroom a bedroom? you know, it's like it's like it's not a bedroom, it's an it's an office, right? And

089and so the big determination there became the closet, right? If it doesn't have a closet, it's an office, you know? And then as soon as it's all tied up, you put get someone in there and you put in the closet, right? >> So, it's those type of things like I think when it looks like something and this gives Doug the opportunity to say it's not an ADU, I can approve it myself and say that it's it's not. Um I think that's the I think that's the line he's trying to >> okay >> make I understand. >> Um so um but anyway yeah kind of tricky concept but I do have things unless unless people have uh more questions specifically for Doug. I wanted to go through some other things and just so you know and

090I maybe uh I'm I'm thinking now that maybe these uh you know for anyone actually out there in the audience and for those at the table all of our other three things uh got uh asked for continuances. So, >> yeah. So, so um I'm I'm not sure >> all the public hearings will be >> and so now I'm not sure that everyone got that information um with everything flying back and forth. Um but it just meant that the the schedule became manageable instead of impossible. So >> I don't I don't think we I didn't see that message about continuence, but I was curious. I don't see any documentation related to anything that we spoken last two hours in this file. Am I missing where these are? There's no agenda. There is nothing. >> I think

091there so when we met with Trisha this week, I think there was a miscommunication between Trisha and Melissa. So we were trying to reduce the amount of paper being printed and so we said just print two copies of everything. So instead of putting everything in the binders, Melissa just put two copies of everything in the center of the table for >> okay >> everybody to have. So, we will continue to update the >> the binders, but we we are trying to >> get our do our best to get >> I was just curious like what did I miss? I saw a message about being bring your laptops and iPads, but I did not realize we were not going to get copies. So, I'm looking at it my phone, but it's not productive way of doing

092it. >> Apologize. Yeah, we're trying to um Well, why don't we why don't we go a little further with this and then we'll wrap this up. There are agendas in here and there's copy of the bylaws under that map. Um, and then they're in the the folder. We're trying to find that balance between this pile of paperwork and putting things online. And obviously we're caught in no man's land or in between in the gray area and uh we will uh uh work it out. So >> I can use my >> please please keep forwarding or you know saying what is not working so that we can eventually get this to work. smoothly. Okay. So, but I do want to talk about some other things in this bylaw. Um because I think that the language needs

093to be massaged a bit so that it so that it's super clear. Um and that's been my goal for the past several oh man well years now as we start to redo some of these bylaws is how do we make them as clear as possible? And it's no easy task given that a lot of the bylaws is is a bit of a mess. So um but so uh if we go to so 8.1 is the purpose 8.2 um per was about the the open access units and the closed access units and I think I'll be looking at that text a little bit more but if I look at um okay so look let's look at 7.8.3 8.3 use limitations. It says the owner of record shall be an occupier of the structure which includes the

094in-law apartment. So that differs from an ADU because in an ADU both units can be owned by someone else who owns the property and they can both be rented out. Right? in an ADU, the the in-law apartment, the owner has to be in the main house and the relative um has to be in, you know, in the in-law apartment. So, um but it also says there shall be no other living unit on the lot. And I don't think we can say that. I think that that house with an in-law apartment has to be allowed to also have an ADU because by state law, every lot that is in a residential district can have an ADU. And if this is not an ADU, if an in-law apartment is not an ADU, then this lot can have

095one, too. You know what I mean? So, it can have a rental and it can have grandma living with you. Is that So, what I'm doing uh is folks is I'm going to point uh outline the sections and I'll meet with Lisa me um >> and have discussions with her about that. >> Yeah. And Doug, we can go through this together, too. These are just things that I'm like, you know, that I'm like kind of pulling out. Um so um does anyone have any do they think I'm right about that? I think I'm right about that. >> Yeah. And that intern has that other section of disposal of sewage. How does that work if it is >> Yeah. So I don't think I think I think 8 7.8.4 disposal of sewage I don't think we

096even need. That's like building code, right? You have to get rid of your sewage. It's part of the main house. So why would we need to distinguish it as a separate? >> Because adding an adding a bedroom unit does impact your sewer. So if you have a fourbedroom house versus a five-bedroom house that you have to update your septic system. So >> but only in that case. So that's always true. No matter if I'm just adding a bedroom and not an in-law apartment, just a single bedroom, I still have to check with if I have a septic system, I still have to check. >> I don't think it hurts to leave it in. I don't think it hurts anything. But I would if you want to ask Lisa why she wants it in. I'm sure

097she put it in for protection. >> I don't think she put it in. I think it was leftover from the previous version that we had for years. Um so I think it has just been in there and wasn't requested. And if you add an ADU, >> would that whole >> system if it was a septic tank in that on that? And if you have an ADU as well added now, you increase the capacity of that particular lot. >> Um, >> and more, >> right? >> That's all separated out. >> Yeah. >> What Doug talked about before, you have to separate egresses, electrical, plumbing. >> It's an entirely new. Yeah. Yes. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> If you had to do a new septic system, it would it for all that it would probably take up

098most of your backyard. >> Yeah. >> It's all going to disappear. I I think it's it's in there just to um you know, like some some some things like in the building code in in in state ordinances and things like that. uh things to some things to put in there just to to catch to make be able to catch everything cuz you never you know some uh not everybody's not devious you know we get some pe some crazy people to come in with some crazy ideas and they well it doesn't say anything that I have to do anything I I should be fine and then you know and then things start to go sideways so deleting ing every little thing. Uh probably not the best way to go. Not going to hurt anything. Um 90%

099of what we have in Ashland is [snorts] uh is pound sewer. Uh it's a small percentage in the outer banks of the of the town that uh they have septic. Um, but it's it's it's it's to just catch the the loose ends, you know, so somebody that's in the outer ends that wants to do something that it's there. Everybody knows this is how it's going to be. >> Yeah. >> And and we can go through some of these things later. I'm just kind of bringing up the questions about how again how do we how do we streamline this bylaw to be exactly what it needs um and and not contain you know the extra the extra stuff that we had when the in-law apartment and the ADU were were together right instead of separated into

100two things. Yeah, >> if I might, for example, uh I have a single family home and then if I were to add additional restrooms in the building, I have a limitation of how many I can add. I don't know how that count is derived. Um Doug, you may know it better, but that particular passage, I mean that uh 7.8.4 for actually make sure that that particular area can accommodate another two restrooms whether it's in the basement or not. I'm not sure how that calculation is done today, but if I have a four bed house, I have a three restrooms, I can only go add another one or two depending on I'm guessing the plumbing lines. I don't know how that logic is, but there's a limitation of how many restrooms I can add in my

101building. >> I don't. >> Yes, correct. is currently that's >> based upon it's based upon the the size of your septic system. >> So adding that and if you're having an in-law apartment you have to probably make sure that that particular building can accommodate another two restrooms on that level. >> Yeah. I mean size of the amount of the size of the septic system is typically determined in my experience either by the number of bedrooms >> or most comm well I won't say most a lot of communities are going to a room count which doesn't include bathrooms because of the whole thing about it's an office it's a bedroom well call it whatever you want you're going to count a number of rooms and you divide by like four or something like that >> and

102that gives you your amount of of bedrooms like some communities are going >> last time I did a septic it was bedrooms and then there was a max so you three bedrooms eight rooms total >> yeah that's kind of how >> right so communities but are are going >> so I could have three bedrooms I could have 27 bathrooms three >> bedrooms exactly >> yeah because it's about the amount of people not about the amount of plumbing >> yes >> so >> exactly >> so does so going back to that paragraph does that help retaining that because It asks you to check. >> I think the paragraph probably is more for I I don't I'm I'm reading this for the first time. I want an in-law apartment. It never occurred to me because, you know,

103I flush my toilets, it goes away. It never occurred to me that I may have to change something of that. I think a lot of people don't realize that I've added two bedrooms. that could change something with my so I don't think it's a bad thing >> and I I read it as more someone who's trying to do this knowing nothing about ADUs they never looked up ADUs they don't know what that means um this is the first time >> it's an indirect way of it's a checklist of some sort >> well I could see that so I could look at it in that capacity >> it may be able to be simplified to just like >> check with the board of health on sewer requirements >> I can look at we can look at

104that and as far about how it's described as kind of a check because like I said, if you if you add um I'm just adding a master suite, one bedroom, one bathroom, and a closet, you have to think about the exact same questions as putting on an ADU, you know? So, that's why it's like and that's just under the building code. There's no there's nothing special about it, right? So, that's what I'm trying to distinguish that, you know, that really there's nothing special about this unit. So, >> let me throw a twist here. How are we handling those unit those properties that have campers? >> That's we'll have to get to that another time. >> Is that the whole totally different conversation? [laughter] >> Sorry, D. Let's not go down that route. >> Okay, I

105guess I'll keep quiet. [laughter] >> Okay, one of another question here and this is on the second page 8 7.8.7. the area limitation in the ADU the ADU regulations this this is from the state right that the the size of the >> what's that >> 900 square f feet >> yeah 900 square f feet um but it's um is not larger than 1/ half the gross floor area of the principal dwelling >> or 900 square feet whichever whichever is smaller Right. So, you take half your house or 900 square ft, whichever one is smaller, that's the one you get to do in the in-law apartment the way it is now. And again, this is left over from what we had. It's 25% which makes sense because it's not an ADU, it's an in-laws. 25% of

106the floor area, 800 square feet or whichever is larger. >> Correct. >> Right. So that means if I have a that means if I have a 10,000 square foot house, I can have a 2500 square foot in-law apartment. >> And is that it? >> What? >> Have at it. >> And is that what we want to is that what we want to say? >> Well, I'll be honest with you. all the like the neighborhoods where the bigger homes are located, their basements are about 1,000 square ft, but they take out if you take out for the mechanical rooms and other areas that they're not going to use. It's 800 square ft is typically in the town of Ashland is typically the size of the in-law apartments that I've seen. >> Yeah. Again, typically these are

107people that elderly people, they don't want to take care and maintain, you know, clean a big a big space. Uh kids, you got kids, you got grown kids or teenagers that you you don't want to give them any more space because they they're just going to trash more space. >> Yeah. So my question is my question is why wouldn't we just because I did I did some little diagrams for myself of a small house of a thousand square feet and a big house of 10,000 square feet and um and and what's 25% and how does that relate to 800 right and my conclusion kind of is maybe it's just about saying no matter how big your house is an in-law an in-laws apartment is 800 square feet you know maximum Because no problem if you

108have a small if you have a small house a quart say you have a thousand square foot house 250 square feet is going to give you a bedroom right not maybe maybe a bedroom and a bathroom but it's not going to give you an apartment maybe in New York City um >> good design >> very good design >> um but a 10,000 square foot house is going to give you a way bigger it's going to give you a whole house attached to your house as an ABU Fortunately, we don't have any 10,000 square foot homes. >> Yeah. So, I'm just wondering, is this something where we just make it simple? If you're actually putting in a house for an adult child or a or a, you know, or a parent, um, can it just be

109a number, >> a maximum of 800 square feet? >> Um, yeah. And that could be the number. I'm not saying I'm saying >> whatever. >> Yeah. But but is that the >> should we have the same language as we had in ADU about the 900 plus the principal what are the principal home and percentage versus or should we differentiate so that we know as uh in commissioner when he walks in and he knows that the square footage is exactly as ADU would that create problems >> I I think that we should we should differentiate between the two u uses. you know, the ADU CA is is is is a specific size because uh actually to be to be honest with you, I'm not sure where the state came up with it, but um you know,

110when you want to build a single family ADU, I've just built uh two apartments that you side by side. It was a two It was two family um and they were going to be rented by apartments and they were each 900 square f feet. You could make two 12x 12 bedrooms >> in them or you could build one nice big 15 by 15 bedroom in them. And uh and I think that that's probably where because the two bedrooms is maxed out uh you know the you can't there's not a lot of room left over. Um, but I I think in a in a in an in-law situation, um, I think that uh 800 square ft is probably 90% of the of the town is probably about maximum >> of what you can fit in there.

111>> Um, and I and I think it would be good a wise thing to consider just keeping the two separated square footages. >> So, I agree with you completely. The way this is written, anyone can have 800 anyways, so you might as well just take out the percentage. Choose that square footage and that's your maximum. >> Yeah. I mean, um, >> you know, you're in a smaller >> house, you're going to likely upgrade to that anyways, so you might as well just say that that's sort of the maximum. And that prevents, you know, a larger house from making a fourbedroom apartment attached to it. >> Right. Right. Right. A fourbedroom ADU, you know, thing or four Yeah. fourbedroom in-law suite. Right. >> Yeah. Which defeats the purpose. [clears throat] I think it's really a two

112family house at that point. >> So, >> is 800 the right number? Do everybody feel that's the right not a thousand? I I actually recently working with Doug before our ADU law was changed, I did an ADU in Ashland right at 800 square feet, you know, and what it, you know, it was for um a grandma and it basically takes care of a a one bedroomedroom, onebedroom bath, kitchenet, living, dining. It's a little apartment and 800 works. with 900. I think the difference is with the state um like I'm working on one now that I can put in a second bedroom, you know, so that you have an ADU that could be have an office or it could have parents and a child in an ADU. And I think that's the difference between 8 and

113900. Not saying one is better, but if if we want it to be >> gets you an additional 10 by 10 room. >> It that's what it gets you. Yeah. So >> yeah, that sounds like a good one. >> So the 800 might be the right spot. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I mean, if it doesn't work, we obviously can review it if Yeah. things come up, but sounds like from square footage approximately if you look at a living, dining, kitchen. I think sounds like the right number. >> So what is the town missing out on a tax base on these property tax? Well, they I I'm not going to speak for Don the assessor, but he they they'll be they'll be charged the tax, but they're not going to be t taxed uh as

114it would be a single family home. >> So, I don't know what do you what's the average single family home tax? What? 8 grand between seven and 8,000 in Ashland. >> Uh sure. >> So, >> yeah. Well, let's just say $7,000. So, you know, you add a whole new uh single family home, an ADU in your backyard, you're going to get taxed substantially. May not be $7,000, but you're going to be taxed substantially because it's a single family home. If it's an in-law apartment, you're going to be taxed for however you tax for a bedroom and a kitchen with what, you know, an extra $500 to $1,000. So there's this big difference because when the ADUs came through, I went down and talked to Don who's our assessor and I said, "How are you want

115to how are you going to deal with uh the the these ADUs because the state wants them to be a single considered a single family home?" And he said, "I'm going to tax them like a single family home." and uh and then you know when he um gets copies of our permits uh he'll be notified that uh if somebody's building an in-law apartment. It's not a it's not in a it's not a it's not the same tax rate as a single family home. Substantially less than that. >> Yeah. Well, there's still the town's still going to get its its chunk of the chunk of the pie, but it's not going to be as great as it would be if it were an ADU. Well, also I think the point is that as as we just

116saw in the other presentation u for the housing production plan is the population of Ashland ages um that people can be family members can be accommodated within a family's home and it's and and that frees up you know another another home for another family versus you know versus thinking about the the taxes you know on that it's going to go up anyway just because the assess assessed value, right? So, but the last thing I wanted to cover in here and there's lots of small points, but is the provision for parking. The ADU, if it's not a within a half a mile, I think, of a train station, the ADU has to provide one off- streetet parking space. Does an in-law apartment need an off- streetet a mandatory off- streetet parking space? >> An accessible parking

117space, I guess. >> Yeah. Yeah. How do we I mean, how do we you know, how do we think of is that the same thing? >> Well, you can't park on the streets uh like in the winter time. These are these are the the people in an in an in-law apartment are more are more permanent because they're a family member than they are uh than an ADU is which could vary could be a family member but the ones people that are talked to me they want to rent them out rent them out and uh and and so they're more transient the people in the in the ADUs are more transient Um, you know, you don't the idea for an in-law apartment and and why some of the language is in there is we don't we

118want the single family home neighborhood to stay looking like a single family home neighborhood. >> Um, and if you don't and and typically it you're you're only talking one vehicle, one new vehicle, you know, you're you know, or or if there's husband and wife. I know they I've done a couple last year uh u or they they were yeah before the ADU thing uh came in. They were a husband and wife that were elderly and they moved in the their children built an addition on the side and they had a huge garage and they had a big driveway and they had room for the vehicles. uh you know, you want to you want to you don't want to force people to park uh on the on the grass or try to force them to park

119out in the street because then the neighbors get all up in the arms and they get uh they they don't like that. Um because we do get complaints uh even though it's a a police issue, they I'm all my department's always the first place that people call. >> Um so I I think you you know I I think that the parking is a good thing. I think it's the good thing for the town. >> So we should keep keep an off street parking spot. I I I mean, where else is somebody going to park other than >> No, I'm just I'm just saying I'm just looking at it differently than an ADU that you might have someone living in your home that doesn't drive or that you want to accommodate someone that doesn't drive. >>

120This might be part of the reason why you might want them in their your home >> and but you don't have a room for another parking space or is that something that can be >> Oh, [clears throat] so I >> Sorry. >> Go ahead. Yeah, I'm just going to jump in. I mean, I I think whatever the majority position of the board is is fine with me. I for one think for the in-law apartments, we can be more flexible and not require it. Um because I think the whole concept is our elders who are probably not driving anymore. I think that's the vision here. Um so I for one don't would not require it and would not make it burdensome. But if the rest of the board wants to go the other way, that's fine

121with me. I apologize. I have to step away. Um Trisha is aware, but I hope u I know the rest of these are continued, but I do trust um the majority of the board on this one point, which sounds like the last point. >> All right. Thanks, Hannah. >> Thanks, everybody. >> I think the way it's written right there um it's it's not saying you have to have an extra parking space. It's saying you have to have parking um that is appropriate for the dwellers. So, it's kind of leaving it open-ended. If you know your mother's moving in there and she doesn't drive and you don't have a spot in your driveway, you don't need a spot in your driveway. >> You're kind of right there. It doesn't >> actually have to have a spot.

122It's saying you have to have be able to accommodate the dwellers >> and it is still under review just by the building. >> Does that mean by this rule that the homeowner can make some adaptations to the yard to allow Well, if you had to increase your driveway or something, sure. But >> but I think it it it leaves it open that if that person doesn't drive, you don't have to do it. If they do drive and they live with you, they're probably already parking somewhere, honestly. >> Right. >> So that and if they're moving in and they need a car spot, then you would have to decide, are we parking tandem? And that's okay with us. I could be wrong, but I Isn't there some provision in town that you're not allowed to have,

123not a rotary, but in-n-out access with your driveway? >> It depends on where you are. If you can have two curb cuts on your driveway, it depends on the road. Um, and they would need a curb cut permit depending on the roadway from um DPW, but it could also just be a widening of the driveway or something of that nature extension. >> Yeah. I mean, nothing here negates the other rules set up in the bylaws. >> Right. So, you'd have to go back and make sure all the other bylaws that you're whatever they talk about curb cuts or >> lot coverage setbacks, right? All those have to be maintained as well. You don't it doesn't give you a pass. So, >> um Okay. I just want kind of a general feeling of the board. Obviously,

124this isn't this this isn't the only time we'll be discussing this, but I wanted to get kind of general feedback of the board of the things that I was picking out of this um because I I think it is different. We're making this different than the ADU. And so, how is it different, right? How are these two things different? So, um, so I think we're probably, you know, taking between Doug and I and Lisa and Jasmine, we'll take another pastor. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Kate. >> So, I'm going to say public comment um in the public hearing. So, I >> I really think we have to reook at the um I'm the basic concept I got from Doug and that kind of makes sense. But when you're calling it inlaw, you're you're dealing with like traditional

125family only and immediate family. And like the state law has a definition of that. And that doesn't meet the intent that we're saying of like you could have your disabled cousin, right? And you're you're um cousin of a cousin, but you still think you can accommodate them, right? So >> is there a different name that's out there right now that people are calling? >> Well, when you look up in-law, right? So everybody defaults to ADU in [snorts] Massachusetts. Like I've seen a bunch of legal that's when I first saw what are we trying to do and I kind of get what Doug's talking about but but um I think yeah so I don't know. I looked up it's I I am very much against that traditional family only and immediate family and I think we

126have to do better than that. >> Yeah. I I think that's uh I think that's a good point. I think it's about it's not intended [clears throat] to be exclusive. It's just a the name that's always been used and I don't Yeah, I don't think >> but but because it goes back to state law, right, of of definition of that. >> Yeah. Well, we can we can look at what we want to because this isn't a state law. we can look at what we want to call it and to be >> appropriate uh for what we're >> and I think I mean some of the stuff I don't like about it and again the concept I can get my head around but like it's like this is government intrusion of like a marriage license a

127birth certificate like how are they related you know all that stuff so that gets a little messy too right >> are we still talking about the main in-law >> parent I mean of of who who can be there >> yeah I think I think >> so it's not just the name it's who can be there that has to be defined if if that's the direction, right? Um it's it's related to that, but yes, it's it's how are you going to determine who can be there? >> Okay. I don't think we may call out exactly who can be there. I I understand what the name implies, but we've already just said that we're we're we should look at reinvestigating that name, that that name isn't appropriate for what we're intending. So, >> so you're saying there's

128no, we're not intending to make a limit on who is there, who what what relationship. >> You should ask Doug while he's still >> Doug, is there a differential and and in-laws? >> I mean, it's family members. I apologize because I was saying u parents and children and things like [clears throat] that because that's typically who I see using these uh getting, you know, they're getting and and having these built. Uh but uh you know family members I mean you got a cousin um I you know I'm certainly not there isn't a building inspector alive that's got the time to you know I want to see birth birth birth certificates of who's going to stay here. Um we we typically would say that um you know we look at it and say geez somebody's dumping

12980 to $100,000 into their basement or into an an addition on the side. It's got to be it's it's it's got to be some kind of a family member. And typically the the people that are that own the the home will tell us they tell us, "Oh, my parents have, you know, they're getting older." I haven't had one of these built that the parents that the people that own the home in town that want to add an in-law apartment uh don't uh tell me the life story about what's why that this person or this couple are going to are going to move into their house and they're spending all this time and money to do this work. So, um, you know, where I, this isn't a situation where where I'm concerned. The only concern I

130would be is if you, you know, if you're trying to rent it to an outside person, um, that you don't know who they are, um, never seen met them before and you're trying to make a profit on it. So I guess to part of like let's say my best friend's in a car accident. >> Exactly. >> She has no family. I want her to come live with me. Yeah. >> I'm not planning to rent to her because she's [clears throat] my best friend and I'm just taking care of her because she has no one else. >> Would that be allowed under an in-law situation or does that kick it to an ADU? I guess is the question? >> No, I I I'll be honest with you. I I don't ask. So, >> well, I I

131think >> but I No, I don't I wouldn't have an issue with it. >> Yeah, >> I'm not going to have an issue with it. I mean, you know, >> Yeah. I think in terms of making it clear, it's just really it's it it is just redefining this. I think we're all in agreement that it's not about blood family. It's about people who feel like family because they have access to the whole rest of your house. There's no locked door. So it's people that feel like family and so we will find the the correct term to use for them. So >> do you have something else Kate? >> I do the several. Um so I think just hearing this conversation I think this absolutely needs to have some grid of like what differentiates a a

132um I don't know what we're going to call it. Hopefully not inlaw, but maybe in law if it's defined. Um, not an ADU because I think that it's just it feels like it could be arbitrary and then not because I'm under the impression that an ADU can be in your single family house. It obviously has to meet the building code and think and then you said tonight it can't and I'm not sure I agree with that, but >> you know, I I don't think we said it can't. It can be embedded into the house. That's a part of the ADU bylaw, >> but it requires the same kind of separation as if it's a two family house, >> right? That according to the building code. >> So, that's what makes it different. >> And that

133might be the one thing, but I think there might be a couple things, a little grid to make it clear, like very clear. That's what we're trying to do is make our bylaws clear. >> Yeah. >> Um on 7.83, it says no borders or lodgers shall be allowed in either dwelling unit. So, let's say I have your scenario, my friend that doesn't have friends, and I have the financial wherewithal to have the friend come, but you want it to be nice, so it has a little separation, but then I'm going to travel the world because I got won the lottery and I'm going to rent my part of the house. Why can't I while my friend is in the uh in-law part of the house? That's a legal discussion I'd have to take up with

134Lisa. >> Yeah, that's a little tricky. Like now you because now you have two strangers now. Uh that now you have a it's not a family anymore. It's a you know it's a it's a paid tenant and a family. >> Well, okay, but like we're I think I mean by like >> we're in the US and we want property rights and I get my house and I get to rent it. So, like I don't know that you rent the whole house because because the because the in-law unit is a part of the house. That's what we're saying. It's not a separate unit. It's part of the house. >> But the way that's written doesn't cover what you're saying then. >> Well, the border or lodger. Yeah. I mean, um, >> but I I understand what

135you're saying, but I don't what you said is not how that's written. Well, I'm not sure how it's written, but it's that the that there's no one in the that's paying rent to someone else, right? So, you can rent out your whole house, but then you can't I don't think you can separate out the two pieces, right? >> Because it's one piece. It's one, not two >> in this. There's there's one dwelling. Yeah. You can either rent out the dwelling or you cannot, but you can't rent out half a dwelling. So, um >> Okay. And I [clears throat] think we talked about that no other living unit. I think you have to have an ADU by allowed by the law. Um [clears throat] the ingress, egress, and attic provision. I think some of those it

136says that um building inspector, but I think it should be like shouldn't that be like building codes? We again we have things to line up to. Yeah, I was skipping over that one because it I don't think this needs to go late into the night, but I think again that's another one that might be really covered in the building code and that we might not need for this single family dwelling, which is what we're talking about. >> Um the 7.8.8 it is. Are we asking like too much? like you have to do your floor plan but then show like 200 feet around the neighborhood like >> again this is left over from when this was the ad the in-law apartment bylaw >> and so it made sense at that time and so requiring floor plans

137that are different than what's required from for a normal building permit obviously it probably isn't needed in there >> um the parking I I heard lots of conversation which is good I I mean, we say don't park in the street, but street parking is allowed, right? Except the winter sort of stuff. So, I feel like it shouldn't be too kind of ownorous on that. Um, anyway, and I it sounds like there'll be another round, but those are my comments. >> Yeah, there'll be another round. Thank you. >> Thanks. All right. Um, like I said, this this is just kind of round one on this. I'm glad we finally got to tackle it because it's an important bylaw and we'll put it on we want to get it on the docket for the spring. Um, but

138there'll be a big revision and then we'll we'll look at it again probably I don't know about we'll have it on for the 22nd in case everything else drops off again. >> How does our bylaw compare to other towns near us? It's very similar to have an in-law and a ADU bylaw separate because it is a differential that only happens within the building department, but if you do not have it separated in your build in your zoning bylaw, the building commissioner cannot grant an in-law apartment if you don't expressly allow it. >> Yeah. And our our ADU bylaw came out of was modified from language that is provided by the state as a draft. You don't have to use it, but we we started with the base. We looked at some other things. We we

139put in some of our own things, but um so our bylaw, our ADU bylaw, excuse me, is related to everyone else's, but it's kind of unique there. >> When did this ADA ADU law start to manifest itself? What year did that >> About a year ago? About a year ago that it became I want to say February that it was that it became uh state law. So probably preceded by a year or two before that >> that they started to talk about it. >> Yeah. Because it does nothing happens overnight in in >> it was it was something that was issued at the state level and it was mandated that ADUs had to be allowed by rate and all towns had to update their bylaws within a certain amount. >> I think I heard about

140it in late 2024. >> Yeah. But I can give you a history of it and it's all on the website. So >> yeah. So, >> but I think to Kate's point, I think some of the when you can just Google it, it's in-law or ADU. So, I think from that rental point of view, we have to be very clear on what language we put in. >> This language was chosen because this is how it's differentiated in the code. So, this language actually is important to keep because there is language on this in the building code and it's important to be consistent with it exists in the building code. >> So, we're we'll look at that and present that actually next time as well. Um >> maybe to the point of 7.8.3 we look at the

141language in the future >> language. What do you mean >> well use limitations? >> What about >> because it's a little ambiguous? >> Oh that's a technical term I think. Um, is it as the term the term use limitations? Yes. I think that's >> that's a legal >> like >> is that approved by legal to use that? >> That's actually legal by our town council bylaw is written by town council. >> No way to amend it if we wanted to. >> You there that is it's a use limitation on the site. It is it that's exactly what it is. So there's no way to amend that because that's exactly what it is. You can we can amend the language following it, but it that the use limitation is just a Yeah. Everything else is no

142borders or lodgers. It's like >> talks like that. >> It's a limit of the use. So you're you're talking about a use of a property. This use is a single family use. So for this use, this use is limit. >> And that's the section also Doug said he was going to revisit it with Lisa. >> I'm more concerned about the language after >> Yeah. So, let's let's leave this for now >> because we've discussed it enough and we have way more. We have enough what we need to do another draft. So, let's >> do that. I don't know if Doug is still on. >> Yes, >> I'm still on. >> All right, Doug. We're going to [clears throat] we're going to move on to more exciting. >> Can we continue this though since it's a

143public hearing? >> Do Oh, I guess we do need to continue it. Okay, we will I'm going to continue this to January 22nd, our next meeting, just because I like to have it on there in case >> you need a motion. I'm sorry. is a public hearing. [laughter] >> I'm sorry. >> In case everything else drops so that we can continue to discuss something, right? Um so I will make a motion [clears throat] that we will continue the in-law apartment zoning bylaw amendment discussion um until January 22nd. Is there a second? >> Second that. >> And a roll call vote. >> I Trisha Kendall I. Sorry, Angel. That's three. So, we'll be continuing >> and um Thank you, Doug. >> All right. >> Yes. Thanks, Doug. >> Yeah, no problem. I'll uh I'll put on

144the calendar to uh stay awake uh on the 22nd. This is past my bedtime. >> All right. All right. And we'll and I'll talk to you in the meantime about the next >> Yeah, no problem. And uh next Wednesday when uh Lisa comes in, we let's set something up before then and then some Wednesday I can we can talk to Lisa. Yeah, that sounds good. >> Perfect. Take care, everybody. >> You, too. >> Bye. >> I didn't expect him to stay on that long. I figured he'd be I told him all Yeah, I told him all I just needed was for him to explain >> um and then I figured he would um need to go, but but we got a lot of more information. Okay. I apologize because again, these all of these uh

145you know, we set up this agenda obviously and then it was can I have a continuence? Can I have a continuence? Can I have a continuence? And you guys didn't know. Um Anna did not know either. She was texting me. She's not feeling well, so she was going to hang on. And I'm like, look, it's all continued. You might as well go, right? Um so, um we'll have to make sure when we get those continuences to make sure they get to everyone in the email. Um >> when did we know about this? >> Ah, recently. >> Monday. Yesterday. Isn't that when the agenda was amended? Because there was a new amended agenda on Jan 5th. That was Monday. >> But if something was continued, it still to this day it still has to be on

146the agenda and then we have to continue it again. So we can't take it off the agenda. You still have to >> but continue it that it to be continued could have been posted on the agenda. >> Don't we do that? >> For one of them, we could have it this time, but we're not I mean unless we know when we post the agenda, we're not going to amend it every time. just say at the public hearing to be continued. We could let the board know, but >> yes. So, what happened was that um I think we met on Monday or Tuesday to review the agenda and um we had uh some some of these things were like in actually we were going to pull out in-law apartment in the in-law apartments, but we kept

147that in there because it is a public hearing. We wanted to separate out things that were public meetings versus public hearings and so we changed the order a little bit and the JM Goldson wasn't on the original one. So that got put on. >> Yeah. >> But the hearings were still on and valid at that time. >> Like because I I looked at this and I'm like, "Holy crap, how are we going to get through this agenda?" Right. Um, and I expect I fully actually expected because we um um Jasmine and I discussed this that that zoning amendment that we would read it and we would table it and we would continue it and we wouldn't talk about it at all. That was my intention. And then these all continued, you know, for various reasons.

148They get back over the break. Oh, we don't have the documentation we thought we did. Uh we didn't we weren't didn't get something back from the engineer. you know, whatever. So, they're all continuing, but I thought, okay, now we can discuss that. Um, which wasn't going to be discussed at all. So, anyway, but as these continuations came in, we should make sure that we forward those out so that you see that they're continuing and that we can because it because it probably was a panic seeing this thing. It certainly was for me. I apologize. We still follow what's on I think our agenda for the year usually has a column that tells you all the documentation you need for X meeting should be submitted by X date right >> so are we still following that

149because for this meeting last Thursday you should have had all documentation so if you did not have all documentation that means this meeting was not happening right we talked about it I know that this came up years ago when We were having this last minute documentation come in and we never had time to look at it. We said we need all the documentation to be submitted to the planning board by Thursday of the previous so that Friday the board gets it. So did we not know last Thursday because our agenda online tells that all documentation for that meeting should be submitted by this date. >> Continuation should have been submitted by that date >> if the if they were submitted them yesterday. >> Right. But but the the thing is that for all three of

150these I believe there is new documentation that we haven't discussed traffic reports and things like that. So there's things in there new things in there to discuss. >> Yeah. >> You know plus you know there there's other things like going through um uh draft uh decisions that we could discuss. >> So we're not always waiting for new material. Sometimes we already have stuff that we didn't finish discussing and so we could talk about I mean we could talk about all these items. There's stuff that is new there but there's no reason there's no reason to spend our time doing that when they're coming when they have sometimes they're going in different directions. >> Yeah. That's what we talked about in December. I think we uh we knew that. >> Anyway, >> yeah. No, I I

151understand what you're saying. It's just >> it's a little frustrating because it's hard to plan your time and you're doing some leg work and then you come and then you realize >> we can't make them request a continuance a week in advance. They they are the applicants. They can request a continuence up until the very second of the meeting. I cannot by law that >> feels a little chaotic last few months [snorts] um unlike the years that we've had. It feels a little too chaotic and I hope we can figure a way to be a little more organized. But >> well, I'm just wondering what that means like um >> I'm not sure what the chaos is or what you're needing. >> It's like not knowing information ahead of time. The three big it was

152it was a fully loaded agenda and it was amended on Monday. Mhm. >> That means you're coming prepared for I was prepared for a 4-hour session today and in turn I had to shift my workday to get accommodate this time >> and you come here and you realize like you just have an >> sometimes that will happen. Yeah, sometimes >> it's happening a lot. I don't know what can be improved in our process to make sure we can control the >> but we always have we always have stuff to discuss at 7:15. Right. That's the that like those hours are always like like I said, okay, >> great. These things continued because now we can discuss that bylaw >> which we did for what an hour you know maybe right so the time is always

153filled um but it's just filled different need I but I do I definitely think and I could have sent an email out >> yesterday. It's difficult because we're getting we're getting a lot of different feedback. So one is I'm getting too many emails of too much information. So we agreed we'd only send information on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but now if something is being continued, you want to know immediately. So it's we're getting conflicting information. So we cannot request that applicants tell us they want a continuence by a certain time. Not allowed by law. They can literally show up at the meeting and say, "I want a continuence right now." I cannot make them ask that ahead of time. And I I won't I will not ask applicants. I'll say please let us know in advance

154as far as you can but we can't beholden them to you have to tell us by Thursday if you'll be at that meeting or not. So what we can do is we can tell you immediately as soon as we know or we can wait and discuss it on the Tuesdays and Thursdays but we need to know which direction to go in because we can't you know it can't be we're getting too many different emails we only want them on two days but then I need to know things immediately. It becomes tough. I I think it's just about um say even last night say even last night I could have sent out an email not text because I'm not doing that so much anymore but sent out an email that said hey two of these things

155continued but that is going to allow us to have a greater discussion about the bylaw. So see you at 7:15. >> Yeah >> kind of thing. In that way, you could have said, "Great, I'm going to spend my time reading the bylaw and not about reading 30 Memorial Drive." Is that is that like what you're saying? >> Yeah. Just like spending time on reading that GCG report, coming prepared, and now you realize like, >> right? Wait, okay. I should have I should have read something else. >> Yeah. >> Right. Absolutely. >> That that makes sense. >> So, >> thank you. Um, feel free to poke me with a text during the day saying, "Trisha, what's what do you know about the meeting that we don't know?" Because typically I'm running around scrambling and Jen uh

156Jasmine is too. >> So, if you're wondering before I read all this crap, you know, maybe you can direct me to what I should be reading. Um, that will give me a heads up to do that. Um, and I and I actually would appreciate those those heads up cuz yeah, >> I don't know if that's an efficient process bo each one of us bothering you with text messages asking you about it. Right. >> Well, it's just it's some >> I wish there was a easier way so that we don't have to bother you about >> I can send again I can send on the day of the meeting but again we have to be you know you can't you can't tell us that we have to tell you something 500 times, right? So, we can

157send out meeting materials on Thursday >> and then the Thursday of or the Wednesday before I can send out an email saying this is either this has been continued or it hasn't or just leave it. But if something has been continued, I can tell you the Wednesday before that's better and still give out the materials on the Tuesdays and Thursdays and just send one general email to the planning board. >> Tuesday and Thursday was a follow from the last time when we >> Thursday was sending meeting materials. Tuesday was just in case things came in. Reports from GCG. Anything else that would get one last push through of meeting materials that had come through between th that Thursday that we posted the meeting and the Thursday of the actual meeting. Give you time to get

158those additional materials. And Wednesday, we could send just an email if things have been continued. Just saying XYZ has been continued for tonight. Nothing else. No other information on that email. Just if something's been continued, we can make it a point to say one, two, or three have been continued >> on Wednesday. >> All right. So, um All right. So, let's just continue these off. I don't think we need to discuss anything at this time. So, [snorts] going to public hearings. Um 30 Memorial Drive. I am going to make a motion to continue 30 Memorial Drive YMCA public hearing until January 22nd. Is there a second? >> Second. >> And roll call vote >> Paul Montino I. >> And Trisha Kendall I. Um so that is continued. 55 Tilton Avenue special permit and site plan

159review. Um I will make a motion to continue that to February oh to February 12th in that case to February 12th. they asked for. Um, so is there a second on that? >> Second that. >> And a roll call vote >> and I, >> Angel Cazadian I. >> All right, that is continued to February 2nd. And then um 240 to 260 Pleasant Street site plan review and design plan review and site alteration special permit. Um, that are that's the Metro West soccer fields. We're continuing that until January 22nd. Um, do I have a second on that? >> I second it. >> Paul Montino. I >> and Trisha Kendai. So, those are all continued. >> Um, we will be sending Oh, maybe it's already got sent around. I kind of updated well I was updating this

160planning board task list at the same time u Melissa un unbeknownst to me was also adding to the adding information to the task lists not items based on what she heard and saw in the meeting minutes. So, they will even be combined more, but I think it's getting more kind of more streamlined and more organized. But we're not going to discuss that tonight because we've already been talking a long time. What's that? >> Oh, I guess [laughter] so. Planning board processes. I'm just going to put a [clears throat] house. I know you're you're you're scary, Deepa. Okay. Um, really quickly then. >> I think [clears throat] it's a good thing. Um, I assume no one's like really eager to go into that task list tonight. We're good, right? >> I think it's fair to have

161other people here. >> I think so, too. Okay. So, um, we have reports, community preservation committee. That's Scott. Metro West Regional Collaborative. I assume there hasn't been another meeting in the this month. >> Yeah, I think there's one scheduled for Jan 15th. >> Okay. I was going to say I think you reported on it at the last meeting. Comprehensive plan implementation committee. That's what I had mentioned to Anna um that she was going to send that email to Yolanda. Apparently, she just did that. Um and Just one thing. I I had some other notes, but I'm going to wait for the other members to be here. The one change I am going to make right away. I think everyone was in agreement with this. This is an administrative thing. Um the general email for planning

162board select board has selectmass.com. School committee has school committee at ashland.k12. You know the school stuff. The planning boards is Ashlin.planningboardshlandmass.com. We're going to take off that first Ashland. So, it's just planning ashland.com. We're all good, right? Yeah. >> I'm not even going to take a vote because I see lots of nods. Um, and the rest of this stuff can wait. Administrative matters. We already talked about some of these things. Is there anything new that we have to bring up right now? >> No. All right. Meeting minutes review Nove start with November 13th. My computer doesn't want to wake up. There we go. I have a couple things, but that's why I need to wait >> it. It went to sleep and now it it doesn't want to wake up. >> Not to It's done.

163>> Okay. Uh, November 13th. Let's see. Okay. So, um I think we need to list um that Scott Pair was absent. Usually, don't we? I think usually we we list absences, don't we? >> I have to go back and check that. >> So, um I think we usually do, but but so >> take your word for it, but you know, >> that was one note I made. And then um on line 46 um the bylaw, we continued the bylaw discussion to January 8th, 2025. It should be 2026. And was there anything else? That was it for that one. >> Okay, >> pretty easy. Did anyone else have any changes to November 13th? >> I only change >> the year. Okay. Um, let me see. So, let's moving on to we'll approve them both together. So,

164moving on to December 11th. Um, on line 161. >> 161. Oh, it it should be a 9 by8 space, not a [laughter] nine. 9 by8 is a little small even for a compact car. >> Everybody's driving minis. [laughter] >> Mini coupe. >> Yeah, it might fit. >> Um boy, I think that's it. I thought I had more, but the rest were just notes to myself. >> Okay. Um, oh, actually, um, I did have one more thing. Um, line 109 10, it says, "You reported that you anticipated the 40B hearings, two of the 40 beings, 40B hearings closing on December 22nd and December 23rd." That doesn't really make sense, does it? Because >> we did meet that Monday and Tuesday. >> Oh, you did? >> Yes, we did. >> Okay. >> Boy, that sounds fun. >>

165It was a blast. >> I bet. >> All the time. >> Okay. So, if there are no other changes, I will make a motion that we approve the November 13th and the December 11th meeting minutes as amended. >> Second that. >> And a roll call vote. >> Deep Imposs. >> And Trisha Kendall I. So that is approved. Next meeting is January 22nd. Is there anything else, folks? Someone make a motion to adjourn. >> I'll second that. >> I'll make the motion to adjurnn at 9:39. Paul has seconded and a roll call vote >> I and Trisha Kendall I. Just because he got a vote on the adjournment. >> Yay. Let me just grab the myar for this. >> Oh yes. We just have to sign this. If you could be also