Select Board & Joint Meeting with Board of Health (January 7th, 2026)

001You want the mics off or on? >> Good evening and welcome to January 7th, select board meeting of the town of Ashland. Nice to see a lot of people here this evening. Nice to have you. Happy New Year to you all. Hope it be a healthy healthy and safe one. Uh before we would do anything, I like to recognize an individual who say you didn't think I was going to, right? You knew I was going to. Um though he did it very quickly and very quietly without any fanfare, there's still going to be a little cash. >> Keep it keep your cash. I would like to recognize uh retired police chief of Whan, Ed Burman. Eddie, congratulations on a wonderful career, my friend. We uh you did a great job. You did a great job

002in Ashland. And I'm sure Whan was just as surprised as I was when I read that out of >> you know I I just want to add to that joke because I really uh you know a lot of a lot of people don't know Ed uh all the work that you did during co Oh yeah >> and um you know almost single-handedly you kept schools open on days I know that I talked to you a lot of mornings very early um when you would meet teachers in to be tested so they could uh go to school you know obviously when they tested negative Um, I'm not sure other communities had that kind of um, work going on behind the scenes to to keep schools open and people safe. And uh, I know I certainly appreciated

003it. And uh, thank you for that. >> No, I have to read something else. >> And I drove the buses. >> And And you drive the buses, too. That's right. >> And then there was that. And then we would see him at the hospital if God forbid anything happened. and he he would take care of us there as well. >> In one day, you can see team in a lot of places. >> In a lot of places. That's right. Um, this meeting has already been opened, but I still have to read that the meeting is being recorded and broadcast live by WACA TV and livereamed on Facebook. Remote participation is available uh using the Zoom uh video conferencing platform. Any disruption with this video conferencing platform will result in the platform being shut down. In

004that event of any disruption, broadcasting will continue on WACA TV and livereamed on Facebook. Uh the folks that are uh watching uh on live streamed uh when the time comes, you have any questions, please use uh the raised hand uh icon and we would be happy to uh call on you when the time comes. Um we are running a little late and again I apologize. Um the first uh thing on our agenda is citizens participation. If there's anybody here for citizens participation, I'd ask that you come up to the pl uh the podium uh state your name and reasons why you need to speak to us. Anybody out in the audience? I don't see anybody hand raised. So nope. Unless you see something I don't. Okay, then we will skip right over to uh our

005schedule meeting which is at 7:10 and I'd ask um Rajit uh the public health director and Dr. Zachary uh discuss the nicotine-free generation proposal uh which is uh jointly with the board of health and um there are a number of individuals that are here to uh speak on its behalf. If you be so kind. Thank you. Just make sure you can >> the board of health. >> Oh, that's right. Board of health meeting. You guys need to open up because you have >> you already did. Okay, cool. All right. Thank you. >> So, if you would like to if you're already opened up your meeting, you're good to go. >> Thank you. >> Okay. All right. Just making sure everything looks good there. Uh, thank you very much for having me tonight. Um, my name

006is Zachary Rich. I'm a lung and critical care physician. I make my living and pay my mortgage by treating tobacco related diseases. And I'm very excited to come here tonight and talk to you about nicotine-free generation policies. I have a very brief overview uh that I wanted to share with you, but I also wanted to leave plenty of time to answer any questions. I also have Professor Kate Silba here in the audience as well, um that can best address any legal concerns or any other issues that you might have as well. So, I wanted to go over what is nicotine-free generation policies. Um, so these are policies that change how commercial suppliers can sell nicotine and tobacco products. Currently, we use an agebased policy where as soon as you turn 21, you can go to

007a retail store and purchase nicotine and tobacco products. Um, these plans would change it to a datebased where in effect that means that anyone that can currently purchase nicotine and tobacco products will forever be able to purchase nicotine and tobacco products. But those that are unable to purchase nicotine and tobacco products will not be able to purchase those products even after they turn 21. if they are in that municipality. Um the goal of this is um to have a gradual way of phasing out what is remains to be the leading cause of preventable death and disability. I I think it's very important also to say what these policies are not. Um these are not policies that criminalize the use of tobacco. These are not policies that criminalize the purchase of tobacco or nicotine products. These

008are solely policies that regulate retailers and their sale of these products. Nicotine free generation policies have roots across the globe uh from the Philippines to being considered in the United Kingdom. Um and we are very proud and fortunate to live in Massachusetts which was uh um where Brooklyn became the first in the country to implement these policies even though they are being considered across the globe. So again, I I think it's worth highlighting why these policies are are so important, why I'm here uh in the middle of the night to invite you to consider these policies and do more for the children of Ashlin than I can ever do as a lung and critical care physician. These policies give time for retailers to adapt to these policies and they continue the progress of eliminating the

009most preventable cause of death and disability which is nicotine use disorder and and tobacco smoke. Many people have concerns about personal freedom and these policies and I just wanted to touch briefly on those. Um, these are are realistic concerns that warrant discussion. Um, when I see a patient who's addicted to nicotine though, I I see these personal freedom argument a little bit differently. For many of my patients, they tell me they have been smoking since they were a teenager. They have tried their entire lives to quit. They have spent thousands of dollars. They have spent um uh years of their life trying to quit this and frankly they're embarrassed. This is one of their biggest regrets and universally they tell me I wish I had never started. This was a a bad decision that they

010were coerced into by companies trying to gain them as customers when they were very vulnerable as a teenager. What I've never heard someone say is, "hm, I wish I could buy leaded gasoline. I wish I could buy asbestous." There's clear precedent of when governments have acted in the interest of public health. And I believe that nicotine free generation is a great example of that as well. I also think it's worth highlighting a couple things about nicotine use. Um really nicotine use disorder should be thought of as a pediatric disease and that's because the vast majority of people who start smoking started when they were an adolescent. 90% of adults that smoke started by age 18. 98% started by age 26. These are not um uh people that say, "Oh, I turned 40 and now I

011want to smoke cigarettes." No, these are uh unfortunately people that are still having their brain develop that are becoming addicted to this deadly product. So the the best law is one that so shapes social norms that it becomes self- enforcing. I really like this quote because I'm not naive to think that if we pass nicotine-free generation, kids aren't going to smoke. I get that kids are going to find ways around these policies, but what we can do is change the conversation of this and say, "Oh, smoking. These are things that the previous generation did and paid for and newer generations should be insulated from. So, just to catch up on where things stand currently, um, as I mentioned before, these policy was first, um, passed in Brooklyn, Massachusetts in 2020. This was challenged in the

012courts and was upheld in 2024 by the Massachusetts Supreme Court unanimously. Since then, uh, many other towns have also um, uh, adopted these policies. Um we are very fortunate uh to have the work of the public health advocacy institute that has volunteered their services for any future uh legal challenges that may arise. So since Brooklyn passed it, there's been many other towns that have passed it. Currently, we're up to uh 21 municipalities that have passed nicotine-free generation in um uh in Massachusetts. Um and this number continues to grow um uh weekly. The I apologize that the um map here is out of date, but the number is now up to 21 as Levert and Amherst have recently passed it and adopted it as well. This is a bipartisan issue. We've seen support for this in

013Massachusetts and in Hawaii, but also perhaps also equally important in um conservativeleaning places as well. And I think that's not surprising because the answer of what age would you want your kid to smoke has a universal answer. Um, these are are policies that make uh are common sense policies that are widely supported. Much of this work has followed off of tobacco 21 work which raised the age of smoking from 18 to 21. Um, and many of these towns that initially passed 21 have now followed in passing nicotine-free generation. And I would invite Ashlin that was also a leader in passing tobacco 21 legislation to join this in passing nicotine free generation legislation as well. Um perhaps what I have found the most uh helpful is having people that these policies would actually affect come and

014and and discuss. Um we have had multiple high school students that say, "I'm so sick of my friends being addicted to vaping. I'm so sick of not being able to go to the bathroom because it stinks of of of vape and other things. Um, and so I would I would encourage you to consider having a a a public hearing where perhaps Ashland High School students would come and and discuss their support for this as well. So, we'd be have a again with our partner at the public health advocacy um we have uh um be happy to help with any crafting of the language or legal um uh issues. But again, I wanted to save time for myself or Professor Silva or anyone else to ask any questions and and see if there's anything we can

015do to answer that. Thank you very much for your time. Again, I'd be happy to answer any and other questions. >> Thank you very much, doctor. I'll open it up to the board uh for any questions or comments, concerns at this time. >> Go ahead. >> Start. Okay. First of all, thank you very much for the presentation. Um and thank you both for being here tonight and our board of health. Thank you for for joining us. Um so, I I I have a couple things. one, you know, um, you you really kind of talk about it being like the children of Ashland and but but the children are not like we have a 21 an like an a restriction up to 21 before they can even purchase um any sort of tobacco products. So, what

016this really is is is saying that legal adults as they become 21 and older would never be able to purchase in our town. So, I I think I feel like um I'm completely against smoking, against vaping, against tobacco use. I've never been a tobacco user. Um, I think it's a horrible, horrible thing, but that's my personal choice. Um, I do feel like telling legal adults that they can't do something that's legal in the state is kind of it's a slippery slope for me. Um, I don't feel like I just I I feel like that it's different when you when you talk about raising the age of tobacco use versus not allowing it. Um, I just feel like it dis it it's a disadvantage to our retailers. It's a disadvantage to um to to our businesses

017and it's not going to dissuade people from using tobacco products. It's just not going to allow them to purchase it in our community. So, I I feel that um I just feel like it's a bit of an overreach for a town to ban something that's legal. I would rather wait. Um, I think it's more effective if the state takes action and if the state mandates it top down. Um, I think it has it has I mean I I think it's I think it's a I think it's a great concept like let's phase out tobacco use. I just don't think that the implementation town by town of not allowing legal adults a choice to do something that's legal is is I have I have kind of some issues with that. >> Could I take a a

018minute to respond to that? >> Sorry if I was kind of >> No, I I I um very much appreciate what you say. I uh um I just wanted to make sure I hit a couple of points. So, first the point of, oh, this is this isn't affecting the children of Ashland. I I wanted to address that. So, people who are under 21 primarily get their cigarettes and vapes from friends, siblings, others that are 21 or or or over. They're not getting it from 40 year olds, 50 year olds, 60 year olds. Um, so I I I do respectfully disagree and think that if they made it uh more difficult for um uh adolescents and young adults to purchase these products that would impact the children of Ashland that by limiting an older brother, a

019cousin or whatever, a friend from purchasing these that will affect the the children of Ashlin, the the teenagers that that we can all agree um uh would want to we'd want to protect from these products. Um the the second point I wanted to make sure I I uh responded to um um yeah yes in an ideal world we would not have to be having this conversation but I would invite you to consider the cost of not acting. um at at some point it becomes that the public health benefit of making this change is too great to not make it. Um as we again we've said with leaded gasoline with asbestous and as Ashlin said earlier with the tobacco 21 movement the Ashlin passed the tobacco 21 movement and said yep we know the rest of

020the state the rest of the country says yep as soon as you turn 18. All right. Uh you're an adult now and you can purchase it. Um and the tobacco 21 movement was was very popular. It was supported by both um uh uh at the municipal level such as at Ashland was signed at the state level and eventually signed in by President Trump nationwide. So, um I would say that following that model, I don't think it's, uh be best for Ashlin to take a wait and see approach because if that had happened with the tobacco 21, then we wouldn't be where we are today. >> Thank you. >> Yes. Uh thank you very much. I appreciate um hearing your comments. Um you know we do live in very challenging times and I think a lot

021of us feel that our personal freedoms are um at risk every day. Um however um you know I you struck a note with me well several places but one being um children in our schools and um you know I have a couple of grandchildren in schools one in the middle school and one in the high school and you know both have complained about uh the smoking in the bathrooms and and having to experience that. Um and you know they are vehemently they're very upset about it. They are vehemently opposed to smoking. Um and and in indeed uh my granddaughter too has expressed how she feels for her friends who are in the position of smoking and vaping. And it's it's troubling that she even is has to worry about her friends like that. Right. Um,

022you know, I'm curious about a couple of things. I wonder if in terms of impact to businesses, I understand that because of the way it would um be implemented, there is the ability for businesses to adjust, but do we have any um information in terms of what the impact has been in businesses in these other communities? So, we probably know the most from looking at Brooklyn where it has been implemented the longest. And in Brooklyn, there has not been a single retailer that has shut down since the implementation of these policies. Um, again, I the reason I think this is it really is a a genius policy is it gives that time to adapt. Um the only sales that would be prohibited next year are those for people turning 21. It'd be a fraction of

023the sales. Um but uh I I do not have hard numbers to provide you because uh we we don't have access to uh sales data from retailers. >> Right. Do you do you know how in terms of the state legislation how fast it looks like the legislature might move? I I don't feel like they tend to be leaders sometimes. >> Yeah, I'm I'm going to uh preface it by saying I'm I'm not an expert in this area. I'm I'm just I'm passionate about children's health and and lung health. Um, but I I truly do think that this is going to need something similar to the tobacco 21 policies where enough towns take their own initiative and pass it in Massachusetts before there's enough momentum to pass it at the the state level. Um um but

024again that would be my my own just a personal opinion on that. Um it would be interesting to have some input from I think uh other community members or from students like you said. Um it would be interesting to hear from them. Um I I too have seen what cigarette smoking can do and not just for breathing but for you know we've come to understand how many different uh systems bodily systems it it impacts um and have seen it you know really result in people dying at very young ages uh as a result. >> Yeah. And one thing that has really um shocked me is for my younger patients, patients in their in their 20s that are vaping, is how much stronger their dependency and addiction from vaping is compared to other of my patients

025that smoke combustible cigarettes. that um that these uh unfortunately very young patients are becoming extremely addicted from these products um more so than their elder counterparts. >> Yeah. And just one final point, I I appreciate too your um in your presentation when you talk about seat belts and um other things that because it it is um you know overreach is an an issue and I think that it's a concern but sometimes I guess uh there the overreach is offset by um other factors. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Hello. Thank you so much for your presentation. I really appreciate it. Um, just listening to um, uh, what my colleagues have said, want to echo some of their some of their sentiments and just sort of add a question or concern of my own. So, you

026know, I think that um, you know, this it's an interesting proposal, but I do believe the net effect is basically to, you know, make it impossible for people who are of legal age to make a choice to whether they want to smoke or not. Um, I'm no fan of tobacco use. You know, I hear about I' I've I've heard about terrible stories about young people spec specifically with vaping, you know, getting very sick and losing pulmonary function at terrible rates. And now we got this Zin patch thing going on, which I mean, the oral cancer rates are probably going to start spiking because of that. Um, but I guess my concern is in the implementation, right? So, you know, we can take a look at uh Brooklyn and talk about um well, let me bring

027it back a little bit. So, like in a town like Ashland, you know, if we say, "Okay, we'll pass this and nobody before a certain birthday." If the surrounding towns don't pass similar legislation, people will be going immediately to other towns. We're more of a car-based culture here. It's a lot easier to hop hop those lines, you know. I think even a regional strategy even before a statewide strategy if that doesn't look like it's going to happen would seem to make more sense. I would also argue or or rather ask about those retailers in Brooklyn. I think that's a very economically that's sort of a very different kind of um kind of retail base than we see here in Ashland. You know with the size of business owners a lot of folks aren't you know

028they're not they're national chains here. they're, you know, like mom and pops and stuff like that. Um, so I would be concerned about those impacts as well. Um, but like I said, in order for a policy for this to be effective, I would think it would have to be more regional in nature. >> Uh, thank you very much for th those comments. Um, just two things I wanted to maybe um highlight as well. Um I I I completely understand the concern of well if we pass it then we're just losing these sales to the next town over. Um unless the next town over uh has also passed it and um Hopkin has passed it and there are starting to be other um towns in the area. Are there I'm sorry to interrupt. Um are there

029is for our surrounding towns specifically Hollist, Framingham, South Burough, Westboro. Um do we know if if there these towns are actively addressing this issue right now or looking to get this uh legislation passed or is there no effort in our surrounding towns at this point? Like do you know what the status of that? Yeah, and perhaps um Professor Silva could could answer that even better, but we've we've had very similar conversations with those towns as we're having uh here tonight. Um >> Okay. >> Um so I would I would not say it's fair to say there's there hasn't been anything. We are um um you you very well point out that many towns take a wait and see to see what their neighbors do. Um um um but uh uh I did want to say

030we we do have some evidence when we looked at the effect of tobacco 21 to say oh if we pass tobacco 21 aren't those 19 20 year olds just going to go to the next town over and a research paper I'd be happy to share it by Dr. for Winnov did show that those effects even when passed in isolation had an effect at reducing uh adolescent smoking rates that yes even though uh youth could go to towns next over um uh there was a a a decrease that was thought to be due to those policies that were passed just at a municipality that did not have m surrounding municipalities. So, I I can't say I have evidence that on how that would affect NFG. I would love to do those studies, but um um I

031I think it's fair to say that I would fully expect that Ashlin passing NFG would prevent some youth from smoking and would likely save lives. I would feel very confident in saying that. >> Thank you. I too want to thank you for your presentation. I was originally not going to say anything because a lot of it has been said. Um but as I'm I'm sitting here and listening and just thinking back to some of the other decisions that we as a board, not all of us sitting here have made. Um we we made decisions as a town, as you said, tobacco 21. We also made decisions about marijuana to not allow first med medicinal marijuana and then because of that we then didn't have recreational marijuana. So I go back and forth. I'm one of

032those people who looks at both sides. Um I think more research might be necessary. I do consider our retailers as um you know they could lose the business. I would be interested if we could um talk about or find out from Brookline. Um I'm also going to reach out to the other communities in the Metro West Regional Collaborative and say what are you looking at? Have you looked at this? Because if we know that we're doing it as a region and not just waiting for the state, then that could be helpful in regards for me for making a decision um as well. So, but you did say that Hopkin has passed this already. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Yeah. So then yes, so we we are part of the Metro West Regional Collaborative, nine communities,

033which surprisingly does not include Hopington, but Hollist, Firmingham, the West, you know, the burrows and stuff. Um, but if you have information on some of those, that might be good for us to know because I'm also of that mind that if we don't have it here, they could go to another community. Now, that was one of the rationale we used when we said no to marijuana was, okay, even though it's not here in Ashland, you could go someplace else. Um, so it's it's sort of a catch 22, but information would be great if you have it. >> I'm going to Professor Silva. Yes, but >> Hi. I just I really want to thank you guys for for letting us speak tonight. Um I just wanted to say that the the question of going next door

034um there there's really quite solid research from tobacco 21 that there was a 50% reduction in local use even when all the towns around were still tobacco 18. So while you and you probably are seeing this in Ashland with respect to cannabis use that no you don't you don't get it's not perfect but a 50% reduction is nothing you ever see in public health. I mean it's really remarkable and there's also a lot of public health research showing that proximity really does matter. Sure determined determined kids get alcohol under 21 they get to one. I mean determination helps but um proximity is a really really important factor. Uh I just wanted to speak to to um quickly if I could to the question of town by town. Um tobacco 21 there were about 150 towns

035that that passed it before the state would make the move. And of course I think everybody thinks that has been a tremendous success. Um but we're at 21 right now. There's a lot of towns considering this, but it does take the courage of each board of health. Uh, also wanted to say that the litigation that happened that went to the Supreme Judicial Court basically affirmed that um the boards of health have this jurisdiction to make this regulation under the Tobacco Control Act. What they can't do is just raise the age to 25. That's actually not permitted under the Tobacco Control Act. they can put in place this birth date regulation. Supreme judicial court says that is all good for a board of health to do and it's got to be done town by town by

036town until the state is ready to act. Um and the reason I raise that that regional re that research about proximity mattering is that I mean you have maybe 800 or 800 800 or 900 kids at the at the Ashland High School. The youth risk behavior survey now shows about 20% or 21% of them have used tobacco products in the last 30 days. Um so the number we're talking about maybe 40 kids who uh 40 individuals who would be um every year who retailers could not sell to at at maximum. Right now they keep every existing customer. So, we're really just talking about 40 new customers a year that they might be missing. The question is, does that impact mean more to the retailer in a in a future customer or does it mean more

037to those 40 people who are going to experience freedom from addiction? Because the freedom question is really tied up in the fact that while you're still an adolescent decision maker, so not really an adult, you're hooked. And according to the CDC, this is as addictive as heroin. It's not not addictive in the way that alcohol is, but it's distinctively addictive. And that's why there aren't adults who initiate this because it's really quite dependent on adolescence. You know, it's really dependent on that adolescent decision-making. And then the social networks where they get it from people who are 21 and they're 18 and they have a 21-year-old in their social network, but they don't have a 26-y old in their social network. So this can have a serious impact on the health, the life opportunities, the um

038financial well-being of a set of Ashland kids right now. >> Thank you. >> Anything else? >> I I'd be interested in hearing from other people in the room or, you know, people online to see, you know, what they'd like to recommend. I that's that's what I was I was going to make a >> I'd like to save the best for last. So I'll I'll I'll leave my comments till the very end. Um but I I am curious. Um a lot of people know who I am and what I used to do. Um matter of fact, decisions at every turn became a very vocal um part of my career when I when I was leaving that aspect of it. And um for those who didn't know, I was the first air officer in Ashland. Um I

039was the juvenile officer and I I took a lot of heart and concern in dealing with uh youth issues. So um you preaching to the choir here when it comes to to tobacco use, okay? Or any any anything of that matter uh when it comes to any type of illegal drugs or whatever. Um, but I would love to hear from some members of the board of health uh your concerns and some of some of the things that you would like to see us probably help change change some views. I mean, my colleagues have made some great comments. Uh, their concerns are very valid. Um, and you know, it's somewhat of a catch 22 a little bit here with respect to that because again, we're we're living in a time where individual freedoms are are slowly

040being pulled away a little bit. And we don't I don't want that to be confused with another decision that's being made for people without having all the information to be able to make a wise and healthy decision for the for them individually and not not as a collective group. So I welcome anybody from the Ashland Board of Health to come up. Uh >> I'm sorry, m Mr. chair before uh Ashlin board of health gets up I just wanted to point out two just to say two things first thing I just wanted to ask was if it's possible and I don't know if there are any young people in the audience tonight on Zoom but it would be great at some >> excuse me ma'am before before you go any further please identify yourself >> it's

041me >> oh I'm sorry I'm looking hand raised I'm sorry >> Hold on a second let me change my >> frequently denies that he knows or is associated with me in any way. So, this is a no surprise. Yeah, I'm I'm actually I'm actually a little sick. It's okay. Um, so >> I'm looking up there and I see hands raised. I'm going, "Okay, >> sorry. >> Go ahead, kid." One thing I just wanted to point out and something that Claudia said earlier, I don't know if we're going to have a lot of young people on the Zoom tonight, but I think it would be great to have an opportunity either at our next meeting or have some kind of a forum where we could hear from the young people in Ashland about this issue. I'd

042like to have some sort of uh means to do that because they're the ones who are being impacted the most and we're making decisions as adults here in the community about that. But I think that's the core constituency that we need to hear from about this issue and how we should go forward. So that was the only thing I wanted to suggest. The first the first note on my on my sheet was make sure we talk to the high school students and have them come in front of us. >> So that's that'll be done and I'll send an invitation up the high school and I won't look up there anymore. I'll make sure I'll look over here. >> Okay. So now do we want to go through them? So the first hand was Alex Wtherall.

043Yep. >> Unmute yourself please, Alex. Okay. Can you hear me? >> Little louder. >> Just a little louder, Alex. That would be good. >> How about now? Can you hear me now? >> Much better. Thank you. >> Hey, thank you very much for letting me speak. My name is Alex Weatherall and I own a gas station convenience store in Sherborn next door. I'm also the immediate past president of the New England Convenience Store and Energy Marketers Association. and I'm here specifically to lend support for my peer retailers in Ashland. None of us is an angel. All of us exist to make money serving the public. But none of us wakes up every day intending to degrade public health. During the past two years, I've attended more board of health meetings than I can remember in

044numerous towns. And in every one of them, anti-smoking zealots, many of whom are on the COwell's payroll, crowd out activist lawyers and eager high school students whose testimony makes the impression that convenience stores are a lawless nicotine pipeline. Nicotine in every form imaginable. Oh, it's shameful, they imply, citing one dataf-free anecdote after another. Retailers are enabling underage kids to consume all manner of toxins in playgrounds and bathrooms statewide. But it's nonsense. The Zealots's testimony omits two key facts. One, kids don't get nicotine products from brick and mortar retailers. They get them online where no one checks IDs. Sea stores in Ashland check IDs. Two, the rate of nicotine consumption is plummeting with no help from the NFG zealots. Take smoking. 10 years ago, smokers bought 53 packs a day in my store. In 2025, they

045bought 27 and a half packs a day. That's 48% fewer, a compound rate of decline of 6.3% per year over 10 years. And the decline is accelerating. Last year, smokers bought 12.4% fewer packs in my store than they had in 2024, the year prior. So, hats off to all of you in Ashlin because the 21-year firm age limit helped hugely. NFG is performative public policy that proposes to demonize retailers while making no practical impact on public health in Ashland. And I urge you to vote against it. The last thing I'll say is 21 towns out of 351 after 22 months since since Brooklyn jumped is less than 5% of the municipalities in Massachusetts. So any of you on the select board who have misgivings, you are in no ways alone. This is this is a

046performative piece of public policy. It puts the burden on retailers and it's not good business. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Uh, let's see who is next. >> Steven Heler. >> Stephen, uh, please un unmute yourself and identify yourself and where you where you reside, please. Hello. >> Okay. Oh, there he is. Okay, here I I I would like to uh have my video on, but it seems like that is not working. So, I'll just speak to you. My name is Steven Halper. Uh I live in Cambridge. I'm not honored to live in Ashland, but this is definitely something that is being uh proposed town by town and on the state level. Uh, and as a member of Cambridge Citizens for Smokers Rights, uh, which accepts no funding from any source whatsoever, uh, I

047feel compelled to speak about this. I believe the proponents of this policy are really setting on having total tobacco and nicotine prohibition. uh they are doing it by saying oh we're doing it for the children which is a very often uh what is being said when you try to push something over on adults but as I'm sure Dr. Uh, Rich and Professor Sila know that according to the CDC and the FDA, the teenage smoking rate is the lowest it's ever been on record. That's a 25 year low. Vaping is at a 10-year low. And their nicotine pouch use is still remaining very low. So what is being pushed here is total prohibition within a period of time by saying we have to protect the children but the rates of youth smoking and nicotine use in

048general are very very low. This policy does not affect youth at all. It only affects adults 21 years and older. I see no reason why youth who are not smoking now and have chosen not to smoke or vape are going to at the age of 21 all of a sudden change their minds and decide to smoke or vape when they reach 21. This is aimed at adults. If the tobacco industry is trying to attract youth, it is not succeeding. Incidentally, uh professor Silba said that uh tobacco smoking is like heroin. Uh again, according to the CDC on their smoking sessation site, uh they've noted that for every three adults who've ever started smoking, two have quit. I'm also I'm also sure that many people in this room and on this video uh meeting have known

049dozens of people who quit smoking. None of them needed to go into any kind of treatment facility. None of them missed a day of work. Uh about the stores in in Brooklyn, I don't think this would shut down any stores, but according to the Brooklyn news, retailers in Brooklyn experienced overall sales declines. Not enough to close them down, but enough to hurt and devalue their businesses. So I think this is also a matter of public health for people to be able to earn a living and support their families is also important. Finally, I'd like to say in the state of Massachusetts now, we feel that adults are competent enough to decide whether or not to consume alcohol or marijuana. Both of these are intoxicants. Incidentally, we have 600 marijuana stores in the state. Um the

050legislature has just uh proposed or actually just passed we will have marijuana cafes. If you consider nicotine and tobacco neither of these impairs judgment or compromises driving skills also my last point is again Dr. Rich said that uh smoking is a maybe the number one cause of preventable illness. Uh but right now the adult smoking rate in the United States is at a 10 uh excuse me 80year low. So very very few adults themselves are smoking. Uh and if you consider that uh 90% of non-smokers die from stroke, heart disease and cancer which are classified as smoking related diseases. Uh I don't see how smoking can be causing all of this uh health problems when only 10% of the people smoke and non-smokers get the exact same diseases. I would ask you to have the

051courage not to pass this. There is a momentum uh a prohibitionistic momentum that is building uh that is saying we need to protect the public uh and I think we should allow the public to make their own decisions. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Half. I appreciate your comments. Um next it'll be uh Mr. Lopez, Rich Lopez. And I'm going to keep it to 3 minutes if you would please. Thank you. >> Sure. Uh, can you can hear me? Okay. >> Yes. Great. Um, so a lot of the points um were made in the presentation that I wanted to make. I'm um I'm a retired uh primary care physician. I live in Reading, Massachusetts. I'm the chair of the board of health in Reading and we passed a uh nicotine-free generation policy uh in June

052of 2024. Um and so um I'm not going to I'm going to try to not reiterate uh a lot of the points, but I I I can share some experiences with you. You know, we had a public hearing. It was probably about two hours uh maybe a little bit more um with you know heated exchanges back and forth. Um I I think we received about 200 emails many from the retailers cut and paste type things. Um uh and but also pros and cons from other residents as well. So it was a very active process we went through. uh but ultimately decided to to move ahead uh with this policy and um I I can comment on just a couple things. One is um I would say at least in the town of Reading um over

053the past year and a half, no retailers have gone out of business. Um when you think about it, it's it's one year at a time. it's a, you know, literally a fraction of their um clientele, probably 1% uh each year. Um so it's a very slow process as was pointed out in the in the um in the presentation, but I just want to reiterate that we haven't seen any impact that way. Um and secondly uh with respect to um underage use um it is true that um social circle you know uh children under 21 uh get their products um you know from their social circle and from online. It's the big two things. It's not going to affect this is not going to affect online purchases. Um but um what we've seen in reading uh

0548 to 12% of reading middle schoolers and high schoolers um use some form of tobacco or nicotine. And um that represents about two to you know one to 200 students. And in our thinking, if we can save just a a few dozen of those um over time um in terms of the ravages of what nicotine and tobacco do um I think it's it's worth it. I would point out that although smoking uh tobacco has gone down, the use of nicotine products has gone up. the marketing by tobacco u companies uh to come up with new and different uh nicotine uh products. And nicotine um although a little bit less toxic than inhaled smoke um still increases risk of stroke, heart attacks um and frankly tobacco and nicotine remain uh associated diseases do remain um a

055a major reason for death and mobidity in this country. Um, one other point I make so I could wrap it up, um, was this whole idea of slippery slope, um, which is a rhetorical argument, uh, often called reduxio and absurd or whataboutism. And so what I heard I I think the best reduo and absurd was next thing you'll know they'll prohibit ice cream and Twinkies sales to obese people. Um, and of course we heard about what about alcohol and marijuana? Are they next? These are rhetorical arguments and you will hear as you go through this process, you will hear these time and time again. And they they inflame the passions. They um they really don't shed any light on the problem. You know, what about mariju marijuana and alcohol? Well, what about cocaine and heroin?

056you know um you know you can you can take these arguments to the absurdity. What we're trying to do here is over time over a long period of time reduce the um the use of nicotine and tobacco uh in youth which as as was pointed out are really the the people who get hooked and um the last thing and I I'll stop is this whole idea and I was pointed out in the presentation this whole idea of free choice in adults takes on new meaning with a highly addictive substance like nicotine. And you know, so many smokers and nicotine users are trying to quit. Um, that doesn't sound like free choice. That sounds like uh people who are trapped in the ravages of addiction and can't get out. And most of those started um in

057younger people. And so I'll I'll just leave it at that. Thank you for allowing me to speak. >> Thank you, Mr. Lopez. We appreciate your comments. Uh, next, uh, Kenstein. >> Okay. Paul Kendall, Mr. Alstein, uh, dropped out, I guess. >> Uh, good evening, Paul Kendall, 63 Bernaka Road. Uh, I would, uh, just like to say a few things around this. Uh, one just would encourage you to continue to foster conversations around it. Uh, hear from the younger people, hear from these other people and not just from the proponents or people against it or anything like that that have uh bias in in this case. Um, you've probably heard me speak at town meeting particularly around things that do start to uh limit our choices or our freedoms uh things like that. And I'm one

058of the people that feel very strongly about being careful when we craft any policy that restricts freedoms and choices. Um, but one of the things that helps me to tip that scale is when it's something that has something like this with public health and it doesn't just impact the person who's smoking or vaping or anything like that. Uh, it impacts our health care system. It's one of the reasons why our health care system is strained. Um, and so it impacts us all. Um and we do have as as was said stated before uh many different things where we've had to make these choices in the past whether it be seat belts and that's one that is literally for the person individual's health right it doesn't that one wasn't there for uh impacting other people. It

059was to protect that that individual. Um, clearly it's a it's a little bit different of of a of a restriction on on personal choice, but uh but nonetheless uh there was good data uh objective data that led people to make that policy and those laws and enact them. Uh so I would encourage to continue having conversations, challenge everybody to try to put put aside your bias um and whatever that bias is for or against, right? It doesn't doesn't really matter, but really just follow the information and then try to make uh a decision and bal and it's all about balance, right? Uh we we can't always just say I'm never going to make a decision that's going to limit somebody's uh rights or choices. Um, and we and we can't do it either way, right?

060We can't be black and white on those things and we have to strike the right balance. And so that that's all I'd like to say is is let's continue the conversation. Um, and but understand that this one is one of those ones where we really have to try to strike that right balance because it's not just impacting the person that's making the decision. It's impacting all of us. uh sometimes more directly than others, but uh but but certainly impacting uh our entire society and and I'm I'm one of those people that uh have been impacted by by this things. Not uh because I've done it, it's because other people's choices. So, um but again, I'm not here to say you should do X or Y, just uh uh please continue the conversation, seek more information

061uh so we can make a a good sound uh decision on this. Thank you, Paul. Appreciate your comments. Um, I see that Kenstein um has returned. So, Ken, if uh you're available, please unmute yourself by yourself. >> Thank you. I'm Kenstein. Um I'm completing my sixth year on the Belchtown Board of Health and I also served for six years on the Belchtown Select Board. So, I basically have occupied the chairs of both of your boards. Uh, I also served as president of our county select boards association when I was on the select board. Um, I'm 77 years old and tonight was the very first time in my entire life I've ever been called a zealot. So I have to put that down. And uh um so we were the first town in our area, western

062Massachusetts, to approve nicotine free generation. We did it a year ago. And we now have a year's worth of experience. It's been very good experience. The merchants have adapted very quickly. In fact, they find it easier to uh check uh the uh the ID cards by based on a a day a year rather than trying to calculate how old somebody is. Um the what our experience was we were the first and now there are I guess five or six other towns. The most recent town to pass it was the town of Amoris which is really important because they have 26,000 undergraduates almost all of whom are under age 21 and almost all of whom have daily contact with peers who are over 21 who are eligible to buy these products. Um we uh what happened

063was they were waiting for towns around them to do it. So we passed it, our neighboring town of Pelum passed it, South Hadley passed it, which by the way I don't think is on Dr. Rich's list and um fi uh finally Amoris passed it and we have several other towns around here that have since passed it not adjacent to to to my town. Um, I think we probably have five other towns out here who are actively looking at it. And I'm really proud to say it's because we were the first to do it. Um, don't wait for the legislature. It took 175 municipalities in Massachusetts to pass Tobacco 21 before the legislature got its act in order, which by the way was passed by a Democratic legislature and signed by a Republican Governor Charlie Baker.

064And a similar thing happened in in in Washington when it was signed by President Trump in December 2020. Um it the people who speak on behalf of the convenience stores I really actually appreciated it because by saying that the sales have declined so much but they're still doing well is a statement first of all that these tobacco control efforts do work and it's also saying that there isn't uh that the impact on their sales is much lower than it would have been if we had enacted this two, three, five years ago. >> Um they're sort of playing a game though. They say that the $4,000 a year that each smoker spends in their shops should not be spent in your restaurants and should not be spent in your other retailers. Can can I interrupt you

065for a second because >> I'll I'll cut off now. >> I I appreciate that. We have a threeminut uh limit and >> right Okay. >> I still haven't heard from members of of our uh board of health and I would like >> Yeah. I there's two other people out there, but I would like to at least hear some of our >> current members of our Ashland board of health before I I continue to. So, if anybody would like to come up from our board of health, please feel free to. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. >> Hello, Mr. Works. Uh, I'm John Burns, uh, vice chair of the Ashton Board of Health and, um, thank you everyone for coming tonight. So, I'm just here to report in. We were invited by the select board tonight. We're in

066an active meeting right now. um just report in on a meeting that we had to discuss this issue on December 16th. Um the long and the short of it is that we felt as a group that this was not clearly a public health issue that this is more of a personal health personal choice issue echoing a lot of what was said in the previous select board meeting and I forget what date that was um but we we watched the recording of that and we agreed with everything that had been um discussed at the select board meeting um and for us that's what it came down to. we really didn't feel like it was our place or our mission. So, it's interesting to hear um from other board of health members from around the state. Um

067and just and you know, I think it it may be a matter of difference in the way people view what public health really is. For us um in Ashland, we see it as very clear public health is um protecting folks against things like asbestous and environmental toxins and lead and some of the things that we've um heard discussed here tonight. Um this um if it is public health, it is um we just felt it was it was more of a personal health issue with maybe some public health knock-on effects. But because of that and because it was questionable, we felt as though um an appropriate step for interested residents would be to take the to to um use the same procedure that they used in Brookline, which was to um pursue citizens u petition, take

068it to town meeting, have um a real democratic process, let the residents vote on it. if it were passed, the board of health would gladly implement um the the measures that were needed to be put in place. So, um that is uh it in a nutshell from our meeting on the 16th and I'll take any questions. >> I'll open it up to any board member have any questions at this point. No, I don't I don't have a question, but yeah, I did find that interesting in Brooklyn that the board of health and their select board did not take a vote, but then via citizens petition, it was brought to town meeting and passed at town meeting. So, >> we don't have a board of health. >> Oh, there was no board of Oh, just the

069select board. Okay. But still, >> we don't have >> But still, it was brought to the people to make the decision. >> Make the decision. >> So, >> correct. And and that >> that's where I would be leading at this point. I'm happy to have you clarify if if I'm wrong about that, but that that's my understanding. >> If if you would please reach up to the platform because many people that are watching can't hear you. Thank you. >> I mean, we're we're just organized a little bit differently in Brooklyn. Um so I just want to say we don't we don't have a board of health because we were the first in the state. We just chose to proceed this way. Um, but I just want to reiterate that the once this got litigated through

070the Supreme Judicial Court, it just became clear that the appropriate body for this under the Tobacco Control Act is a board of health if you have a board of health. Um, so this is this is tobacco regulation approved under the tobacco control act pursuant to the tobacco control act within the jurisdiction of boards of health. So that there was just some a special procedure because we went first and because we're organized differently. I do want to say that of the we don't have any towns yet that have brought this forward to their boards of health and have rejected it. So though it is only 21 towns right now, it's definitely on the move forward. >> Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. Appreciate that. Y any other questions for the board board of health? >>

071No. >> So I I quick question. So if if there was going to be whether it's a citizens petition or if um as we were talking about that the board of health could potentially decide to bring it to town meeting to sponsor you. Okay. >> That's not that's just to be clear. What we were saying was we would then implement and enforce what was brought to town meeting and passed. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> By somebody else. >> Okay. But you're not looking to sponsor anything. Correct. Town meeting. Okay. Correct. >> All right. Sounds good. Because I was going to say like I think one of the things that we were hearing here today is just that there's so many viewpoints and probably a small fraction of opinions. And I I think I agree with the

072board of health. I don't know if I feel comfortable making a decision, you know, for the the entire community without having the entire community really be able to weigh in on it. So, >> yeah. And and I the rest of the board can Yeah. can can I think flesh that out a little bit more if if you folks want to. I was just reporting in on the discussion, but there Yeah, there was quite a discussion about it. So, Okay. Um, >> thanks. Yeah. >> Do you want to Thank you. Well, we got our words in. >> Yeah, plain head. Um, so when our board discussed this at length, um, we just felt really the five of us should not be the deciding factor here. We really felt, and that's why we had asked Raj to

073bring it to Michael's attention to get in front of you because we really think it should be a town vote as something a town meeting. We just felt the five of us really it's not up to us to make that kind of decision for the whole town. >> Should we decide to have public forums, would you folks be available to provide information if if need be? >> Sure. I mean >> I mean you folks are the ones that are going to be monitoring this. I would assume. >> Correct. where it falls under your purview, then I would assume that it's either you folks have something that you you're going to support it or in in some way, shape, or form. I know each you're all individuals and you have your own feelings about it and

074and that's fine, >> but as a board, >> the town would expect to take some some guidance as to, you know, what you think would be possible, >> right? And then someone obviously to sponsor it, >> correct, >> at town meeting. >> So, it it's interesting. I just pulled up some information from Amherst. So for Amherst, it was their board of health that actually took the vote to make it a policy and it's as of January 1st, 2026. >> Now Doc, were a lot of the towns that voted this in, thank you Ry, I appreciate the clarification, have did the individual board of healths vote this in or did it go to a town meeting vote? I'd be kind of curious as to what those numbers would be. I believe of the 21 municipalities that

075have passed it, 19 were passed by board of health and the only exception being Brooklyn and Newton >> and Newton. Okay. >> and Newton was city council. Okay. >> They different. >> I know Young had a question. Come on up. Please identify yourself. And >> thank you. >> Yep. >> Hi, I'm Susan Brstrip Jensen. I'm a resident of Ashlin, 355 Cedar Street. I actually didn't come here intentionally to address this issue. Only heard half of your presentation. Um but uh I have a few comments related to it largely, but also I had a question for the board of health actually um too. So I'm not sure where I should start or if I should separate those two things. >> Well, you have three minutes. So I'll let you decide what you want to do. >>

076Okay. All right. So I grew up in a smoking household. My sister was a smoker. I watched my mother try to quit. I watched my sister try to quit. Um, I've seen the impact on people's lungs as a result of smoking. Um, I'm personally not a smoker. I've never been a smoker except when I was in second grade and my friend and I would like sneak cigarettes from her older brother. Um, um, uh, out in the field. Um, so I guess my question for the board of health is I'm I'm I was shocked to hear you feel that smoking is not a public health >> good >> issue. um given all the rules that have changed around smoking since I was a child where you can't smoke in public. There's all sorts of places where

077it's banned and things and there's all kinds of uh impacts as we were discussing about health impacts and on our health care system. I'm really shocked to hear that you don't consider it a public health issue and under your purview. So, just a comment on that as a resident of Ashland. Um, and then, um, I also want to just apologize to the folks that were presenting. In addition to losing our sort of rights and, um, opportunities through our current government, we also hear a lot of inflammatory rhetoric um, directed at people who challenge things. And most of the dialogue here has not been like that. But there was one particular person that was highly inflammatory, I thought, and attacking in their language, and I want to apologize for that. Um, they were not a Ashlin

078resident, so that was nice. Um, um, I do also want to talk to the idea of culture change and the importance of culture change. And I think as laws have changed around smoking, we've seen that change happen. That may be why less people are smoking now because there has been a culture shift about smoking. and um and as a result of uh this kind of legislation that we're talking about or these kinds of rules that we're talking about, that's how that happened. Um and so in continuing to protect people from smoking and exposure to secondhand smoke and things like that. Um we're continuing that culture shift around smoking which will hopefully eventually lead to less and less people smoking. I also want to address the data on the number of students who are currently using

079based on my experience of my children going through the high school. I would say that number is far lower um than what's in reality. I think people are not telling the truth on some of those um questionnaires. Um, and I think overall this sends a message to our youth that we're here to protect them and support them. And it doesn't matter if another town is makes uh something available to them or not. Uh, what matters is what we as a town of Ashlin, the message we want to give our youth. Um, and I would encourage us to be courageous around taking a leadership role in the in Massachusetts for that. it is it is a domino effect and you need to be willing to be the first domino to fall um to cause social change.

080So I would really encourage us to be braver um as a community in that regard. >> Thank you. >> I don't want to follow you. >> Okay, you're going to be the last >> Yep. >> I guess I got up at the right time then. >> I would say we should else and they should stand up and >> Okay. >> And we still have someone online as well. >> I don't see the hand raised. Where is the hand raised? >> Jonathan. >> Oh, okay. I'm looking at that screen. >> It's hard to see it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Go ahead. I'm sorry, Amy. >> Okay. No, all good. Uh, hi Amy Turniff, 21 Rossy Lane. I live in Ashland. I am a neuroscientist and public health advocate um and parent. Um, I just prepared

081some notes as we were sitting. So, um, I want to say first and foremost, nicotine is no ordinary commodity. So, we're not talking about anything else, right? We're talking about a substance that has significant addiction potential. These are products that are engineered to addict. They cause significant public health harm. The nicotine industry is continually developing new products that appeal to young people who become lifelong customers. I personally believe that addiction is one of the most significant public health issues of our time and I respectfully disagree with our board of health. Um, freedom from addiction is what we're after. And those of you who know me know I've been doing this more than 15 years. Um, for my kids, for your kids, their peers, and down the road, their kids and grandkids. This policy will impact

082adolescent perceptions in a positive way which is associated with a reduction in use. We need to think about long-term positive public health impact and that's a significant legacy. I think it can be yours. It can be ours. Um I cheer a regional prevention coalition in Metro West. Several of our Metro West member coalitions, including our neighbors, are discussing nicotine-free generation. Ashlin has been a leader in nicotine tobacco policy. tobacco policy sits with the board of health. Um, and I think we should lead on nicotine-free generation as well. This policy would have a positive impact on norms around nicotine use in our community. This is a major public health issue. I believe again that our board of health has the power and knowledge to implement nicotine-free generation policy like more than 20 Massachusetts citizen towns have

083already done. I have found you, those of you who know me know I do a lot of policy work spec specifically around substance use disorders and mental health. This is a very high education issue where it's very hard for the general public to fully understand in a short amount of time the public health health implications. So I really do believe it's our public health experts that need to take action. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you, Amy. >> Thank you, Amy. Um, my name is uh Scott Francis and I live at 17 Mory Drive, Ashland, Mass. I invite everybody to come over to talk about nicotine free generation if you like sometime. Um, I uh love living in Ashland and uh I also am blessed to work for more Massachusetts organization for addiction recovery uh

084that supports the nicotine-free generation uh legislation uh municipalities and statewide. I'd also like to provide some direct testimony about uh I'm a person in addiction recovery and trauma recovery and the uh consequences of uh tobacco use. That has been my toughest addiction to have to overcome whether alcohol or marijuana. The uh when I had a return I went into addiction recovery in October 5th 2006 and uh when I had a return to use it really um you know it set me back a little bit. I had uh you know a setback and then uh I was able to get back into recovery after you know um a short return to use right and so since September uh 22nd 2007 I haven't used the substance and I the reason why I point this out is that

085my return from use from tobacco which I started using before my brain was developed and I was really experienced a lot of trauma and it was given to me for free. Um, when I had a return to use for that, it cost me thousands of dollars and years. It wasn't like I had four nights of using alcohol when I was traveling. Um, this took me years and so much money away from me and affected my health and I didn't miss this days of work because smoking I developed bronchitis. It impacted my health and also smokers rights. How about people have a right to not uh have be secondary smoke? You know what about that? I really feel my self-determination ends when it infringes on another person's self-determination. And I can't help but wonder like I

086too was going to uh grocery stores with my mom and she would be smoking in the car and all that stuff that happens as a result that secondary health. I mean secondary smoke, it affects our health. So I'm asking I have two small kids. In fact, some of you might remember Jack testified uh this summer and he's uh in the middle school, Ashlin Middle School, and he's asking to please support this and pass this because he doesn't want to have to deal with this. And uh you know, so I think it's I'm glad we want to have the youth voice heard, but I beg of you to really consider the ne the negative impacts and why is it okay to use a product that kills people and affects people's health. I just don't understand it.

087Uh please, I beg of you to be fearless in supporting uh this uh nicotine-free generation and to, you know, do the right thing. So, an ounce prevention is worth more than a pound of recovery, even though I believe recovery is real. >> Thank you. >> Hi, I'm Chuck Lid's 150 Oregon Road. Um I'll be very brief. This is personal for me. I remember from the time I was old enough to uh know this my father smoking. My father was a physician. He it in 1956 555 the first major report linking u smoking to uh lung cancer came out. He decided he was going to quit. So he started trying to count the number of me of cigarettes every day and he'd reduce it one a week and then he couldn't go any further. So he

088started smoking Kent because they had a filter on them and then he went up again and then he went slowly slowly down and then he went to another brand of cigarettes that had and this went on and then he eventually went to small cigars. This went on long enough so that I was in college before he could quit. And this is from a physician. This is to say this is addictive is you know not um not the other thing I want to say is my closest friend from college died from lung cancer from smoking. So it is personal. >> Thank you. There is one uh additional person we'd like to have. Jonathan, uh if you would unmute yourself and identify yourself and where you reside, please. >> Uh hi, my name Oh, he's sorry. I

089was trying to turn on the video. Uh my name is Jonathan Bowen Leopold. I have volunteer at Cambridge Assistance for Smokers rights with uh Stephen who's on this meeting, too. And my message is very brief. I absolutely love to smoke. I've always found smoking to be very helpful for my mental health being a good citizen. Um I really don't see otherwise and uh you know I just don't want to take away counting on something honest like smoking from you know future generations. So that's it. Thanks. >> Thank you Jonathan. >> I think we've we've uh >> We've heard from everybody so far. Okay. We will definitely take this under advisement with all the things that we have to do. Um I I believe that uh we have a lot of work ahead of us with

090respect to this to get this to get this either passed or not passed and put it in the proper forum and and I don't disagree with putting it on the ballot and having the people vote on it or not on the ballot but at town meeting and have them I think that's the proper forum for that to happen. You know, >> I would like us I I would recommend for the board of health to do some kind of public hearing. >> Yeah. >> At a time where students or other people who are going to be impacted by this. I mean, I think we had a good turnout tonight, >> but I think it would be good. >> My mic's on. Sorry, I'm just being soft tonight. usually. Um, so I would that that would be

091my recommendation that we do another public forum um and specifically reach out to people about this and let it just be focused about this. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, and I'll add I I second that. I would certainly like to hear from students and uh you know people who are currently living you know with this and and I one thing I sit here and I think about is sometimes we talk about protecting uh rights individual rights in in this uh country and uh sometimes it ultimately it doesn't seem like we're protecting individual rights but we're protecting the rights of tobacco companies to make I mean I can't even put a number to it um on the backs of people and and you know youth and eventually adults. Um we protect the rights, we call it

092individual rights when we talk about you know guns and and um you know even when we talk about 40B developers we're not protecting the rights of or getting helping people with housing. We're helping developers make >> profit, make money. And so we talk a lot about protecting rights and often if you really drill down it's uh we're not protecting individuals, we're protecting large companies and and profitm enterprises. >> Well, yeah. I I mean the only thing I want to say is that again I just want to emphasize I I think we talked about high school students being part of the forum but um you mentioned middle schoolers as well and I know middle schoolers in this community who are who have friends who are vaping using tobacco products. We it's very important that we hear

093from those folks too because I think if we hear I think to what Paul said earlier you know we're hearing a lot of voices but I think that's one voice that has not been heard in detail this evening and I think it's important for the community to understand you know understand impacts before decisions are made is a critical critical piece of that. So >> absolutely thank you Makita. First of all I'd like to thank everybody for being here this evening uh expressing your views and your concerns. It's it's a it's a matter it's a definitely a matter of health. It's definitely a matter that is going to affect a lot of people in many many ways. Um my my mom and dad were two pack smokers. My brother and I hated it. We hated smoking.

094Never smoked in my life. Ate, but that was that was my voice. Uh but being Italian, what the hell, you know? But I just want to say that uh I appreciate all your comments and um for those who are called zealots, you know, it's just really okay. Everybody has their Yep. they have their own opinions and everything and that's fine. We let them speak their speak their peace and um we didn't shut anybody out u because that's the right thing to do. Everybody needs to be heard on especially on a very serious concern like this. appreciate your coming forward and being honest with with with your with your addictions. U and it's a it's a daily battle and I appreciate that and I understand that completely. Um so thank you all for being here. Um,

095this this won't be the last time we discuss this matter for sure and uh I look forward to being uh maybe having a a meeting with the board of health if they get something moving forward and talking about people who would be willing to uh get a citizens petition to uh present this at the uh the town or maybe for that matter but we'll with that discuss that down the road. Okay. So, thank you very much for being here. appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. Um, we're gonna we're gonna we're going to take a two-minut break so that folks can leave if they want to leave so they don't interrupt us. If you don't mind Good evening and thank you. Uh we uh returned we're back in session. Uh we took a little break.

096Uh we had a very long discussion and uh very um dynamic discussion about a a very difficult topic. And next on our agenda >> is this sorry >> I would like to introduce uh Rob here. >> All right. >> Oh, okay. Susan, that's good. That's good. That's >> good. Very good. All right. >> It's a good thing we have an honest man up here. >> Yeah. Well, I checked. There was no cash in there. Rob is uh here representing u a group of individuals who uh came to uh a discussion about uh creating a subcommittee uh for a resolution regarding Elon Musk and uh the forum that they were going to present it in was we didn't think it was an appropriate form at at that time and they were uh willing and uh cooperative

097and um removed their petition from uh the fall town meeting and we greatly appreciate that and we thought that this would be a better forum to discuss matters and if it has to go further then we can we can take matters you know in another direction for a more positive way. So Rob I will hand this over to you. Are you going to be the only spokesperson tonight or are there going to be others? >> People can come up as they feel. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I can make it depends what we end up doing, but I'm hoping this will be fairly quick procedural. Again, thank you. I'm Rob Shar and uh you know, I'm here with the other members of our ad hoc citizens group. And just Joe, you did a quick

098review. I'll just say, you know, I think we all remember that we had proposed citizens petition at special town meeting about town not doing business with the Musk and um also not using the X platform and also writing a letter to the um Middle Sex County Board of Retirement regarding the investments. And so at that time we had a number of kind of um individual discussions with various board members and also came to see you guys I think twice maybe. and um you know and agreed that um you you had a number of concerns but also um did indicate that there were might some actions you might be willing to take um not exactly maybe not exactly what's in the citizens petition but that you would try to address some of these issues. So, in

099good faith, we, you know, are taking you up on that offer. And I had made a proposal um that uh you appoint a subcommittee to meet with three of our folks. And we have uh we met last uh a few days ago and did select uh three people who were here tonight, Bethany Robertson, Ed Kirchburgger, and and Chuck Lids. And they're all here. Um and so our our proposal is that um um as we get into these kind of nuances and complexities, it's best to have a subcommittee that will maybe meet, you know, that will meet offline and kind of come up with recommendations, discuss and collaborate hopefully and come up with a set of recommendations to bring back to the full board over the next say few weeks and months, you know, prior to

100the annual town meeting. Um and thing I think it would be useful for me to add is our own you know everchanging events and in some you know you could see that things seem to be getting even you know people have made a number of illusions tonight to rights and you know I think our concerns are even accelerating about what's going on and one thing that we are thinking are you know it's not just Musk it's kind of this whole kind of corporate and billionaire environment and their in their activities and that um perhaps you know one of the issues that came up with talk about one individual who's bad enough and is still misbehaving pretty badly. He's doing some things just recently. Um but maybe it's more like and I'm just throwing this out.

101Our thinking is maybe we need more like a a code of conduct or uh in you know ESG principles or um s you know what's ethical investing things like that. So, you know, so maybe we're talking rather than singling out an individual, we're more defining conduct, our practices, our goals. And so that's kind of the direction that we're we've been moving in as a group. Um, so I just wanted to throw that out as a potential area of exploration for this subcommittee. Um, so that's pretty much um, you know, I don't I don't have too much more to add to that. I was just hoping that you've thought about the members have thought about it and you have at least two members are willing to work with us on this over the next say 8

102weeks or so. Um and that's pretty much I don't know if folks had anything they wanted to add about that or well and looking at um your your proposition that you uh proposed um for tonight's meeting under tasks and goals. is the task is to review, discuss and formulate uh actions um to recommend to the select board and the goal is for mutual agreement as to specific actions by the select board uh addressed on uh the warrant article. But what I guess what value do we have other than our voices being raised? um no different than >> the citizens that are out there on Sunday morning on the sidewalks holding their signs uh you know expressing their their concerns and you know distrust with what's happening and it's just not here it's throughout our throughout

103our nation and and now it's looks like it may be global very shortly >> so um >> what's your role in this is what you're asking me >> yeah basically yeah that's I think that's a a great question. Well, the way I see it is that you are our elected leaders in this community. And so, uh, and I think many of you feel that way that you have a leadership role to take and that and and that was kind of the discussion that we had that the select board has the power to do certain things or to make a statement or to take action to reflect the concerns of the community. And so that's why we're focusing on you guys. We're take we started with town meeting and we're willing to go back to town

104meeting because I think town meeting also has a role. You saw today you were discussing them doing the tobaccof free generation resolution. But so town meeting can have a role. But I think what we got up from talking to you folks um I don't know a few months ago during this was that you felt you had a role as well too and wanted to have a chance to perform that role or at least take some action >> um not the same as what we were proposing but something in that direction and I've suggested that maybe you know some cities and towns have ethical purchasing standards or ethical investment standards. You know, one thing, for example, I'm I'm trying to get a meeting with the state treasurer, uh, Dave Manyani, and I, you may know him,

105Joe, from somewhere, >> I think. So, >> uh, are going to try to meet with her. Well, she's done some really interesting things with the state pension fund. They have a stewardship and sustainability committee with goals, and I'm trying to remember, one is pay equity. The other is uh uh sustainability, climate sustainability. The other is um uh um oh forestry sustainable forestry. It's not all it's not super strong, but they have this kind of they're starting to develop this kind of screening for their investments, which I thought was really interesting. And to me, that's kind of a thing to encourage her and support her on and try to push her as an advocate to push her even more in that direction and the and the invest the prim board who you know. So that's to

106me that's an example of a role that folks can take and le you as community leaders can also take that position and we're willing to help with kind of the technical aspects like the the environmental, social and governance goals and stuff. I know everybody's pressed for time but we can help with those kinds of uh principles and standards that are that are being developed and you have a voice to say in that if you write to the Middle Sex County Retirement Board like we like this kind of thing. we think you should be pushing it and implementing it, for example. Um, so I'm just speaking kind of off the cuff about ideas that have occurred to me that this subcommittee could take on and develop. >> Yep. >> Well, you and I have had similar

107discussions uh not in depth, but with respect to county retirement and some of the things that >> we I have to be concerned about because I don't want to fall into an ethics issue because I am a member of the county retirement. >> Sure. I my retirement comes from that. So any actions that are taken if it benefits me then I affect I basically affected uh an ethical issue. >> So I would have to recuse myself from any and all of those discussions and anybody that's a member of the kind of retirement would s would have to do the same >> or if not they fall they they put themselves in a very difficult scenario. So >> well certainly that's something we should investigate. I'm a member of the state retirement system. I don't I

108feel I can advocate for whatever practices I feel like. So I'm I feel differently from you, but we can certainly >> Well, it's not that I can't discuss it. I just can't take a vote on it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Because that vote would affect >> Sure. >> my my actions in as a as a member. >> Well, I mean, I think we could get some clarification about that, you know, from >> Yeah. >> the ethics because potentially impact me too. So, I think we could get clarification. >> I think we're going to have to get clarification as it pertains to the three of you >> before, you know, we move forward, honestly. Um, but I I I I think just going back to what R was talking about in principle, um, you know,

109basically having an idea of like maybe putting a working group together. Sorry, I'm getting over a cold. um putting a working group together to just kind of look at um kind of kind of stepping away I'm just repeating what I'm hearing kind of stepping away from from talking about individual action but more or less like looking at how how the town could look at some guidelines around >> um you know purchasing etc. you know, um, in various different areas, uh, that would obviously have impacts on some of the issues that you care about, but may go beyond that as well. Is that what I'm hearing? >> Yeah. And I, you know, use this as a basis, but understand that we >> events are changing. I think we're getting to be a little more sophisticated in

110our understanding of >> and and the issues that you folks brought up about, you know, not bearing arbitrary be defining, you know, what's what's proper conduct and what's not being objective. So, I think that's the kind of direction we want to go in. Um, and you folks, you know, um, and I know you're very busy, believe me, I remember that. Um um but it'd be great if at least, you know, if two of you were willing to work with us for hopefully a short period of time to put something together. >> So when this was first brought up, I I had no interest because you were to me you were looking at one person because of some of the things he did. But you've brought up an interesting point and I was able to just

111look >> the idea of looking at our procurement from an ethical perspective, >> right? So we're not just to your point talking about one person or one company, >> but looking at how do we as a town want to do our procurement just like we talk about being a green community and we make decisions when we're creating buildings or planning things to to take that all into consideration, right? We have our information about being a sustainability, you know, a sustainable community. >> And what does that mean? Well, it's not just about energy, but there's other things that you need to do to be sustainable. >> So, I mean, I by no means am and stepping up to do this because that's not possible. But I would like to see the discussion go rather than toward

112one or two people because >> I mean business isn't in there people do businesses to be profitable, >> right? So, I was having this discussion with someone else. It's like, "Yes, but some people have so much money and how is that?" I'm like, "Because they've worked or whatever they do or people support that business so they're more profitable, so they're going to have more money." That's not a negative thing. Those of us who who work with nonprofits, we want people to make money so that they can donate that money to nonprofits. But if we want to look at how we are looking at our procurement from an ethical perspective, right >> and investments too >> and investments and things like that, what are we >> what are what do we want to use to support

113our community and how can we do that? So I'd be interested from that perspective and like I said I just Googled it very quick and there are a lot there is a fair amount of information regarding that. So I think >> if we take it from that approach >> and then see what happens that would be my recommendation. >> I I would agree with you Yolanda and I think that was sort of the approach that I think the last time you all came through. I think that's what I was sort of pushing pushing for and when you came through. So I'm glad to see that you've sort of kind of evolved your thinking a little bit and kind of even kind of widened your your um your your analysis of of of of things. So,

114I mean, I I think there's room to explore uh putting some kind of uh putting something there's room to explore putting some guidelines around that kind of stuff. Um I'm not exactly sure what the most appropriate mechanism to do that is, but I think that's something that we should we should p we should explore and I would be interested in being helpful. I don't know if like eight weeks is is going to be long enough honestly to kind of put together any kind of recommendations. It might be good for like kind of an initial sort of pass it what's going on. I don't think anything final um would come out of an 8week kind of you know uh exploration of this but I think this is something that in my opinion we should commit to

115exploring and and and putting something together eventually around it. >> Yeah. And I would just say just to just to piggyback on what Makita and Yolanda said. So the select board, if you go on the select board's web page, um we have we came up I guess it was probably about a year or so ago, we have the Ashlin Select Board and Town Management guiding values and principles. And I think, you know, that is kind of the, you know, you look at some of these things, it's like embrace our diversity and kind of defines that and build a true home. And so maybe there's something that we can include in there that would be sort of our guiding principles. And then obviously there's sort of more of the technical like nuts and bolts of specific

116things that we could do whether it's procurement or whatever. But I think like >> including it into our value system as as a town. I think like you know a broad a broad thing about how we um whether it's you know governance or whether it's um ethical behavior in some ways or whatever that looks like >> um that how our taxpayer dollars are spent. So, >> um, >> well, I do want to say that we did have some specific concerns having to do with >> with Elon Musk and now I think we're saying it could be broader because there's other corporate interests. So, I'd like to kind of try to keep it focused on I think that's, you know, you folks feel free to come up here and and say what you're thinking, but um,

117uh, we want to keep it focused on the current crop of billionaires and corporate misbehaviors and and and the actions they're taking. we want to make sure that public money isn't used to support those activities and therefore that's why we're having an ethical screen. So that would be I think where we're coming from. Um and you know feel free to come up here and say and we're also I think would like to see something moving fairly quickly. I was hoping frankly that you'd appoint two people tonight and we could start or they could start meeting with them so we could see if there's if these discussions can be fruitful in a timely manner. I'm not sure that and and maybe if it's complicated but constructive we can go further out but I think we're thinking

118that this would start fairly soon. Um and that that was our hope for tonight that you would appoint that people two people would step up uh to continue these discussions. And >> and just to let you all know if if if there is a subcommittee if it's a specific subcommittee those meetings have to be posted and meeting minutes have to be um taken posted as well. So there's there if there's two or more members of a of a of a board involved like there's there's >> mass general lawistics that have to be followed. >> You guys have anything you want to add to this? >> No. Okay. >> She's looking for the money that was in that. Yeah. >> Um I just want to so Susan Gstrip Jensen 355 Cedar Street Ash >> I just

119want to reiterate I think I I think it sounds like we're all sort of moving in the same direction which is great. I think we tried to take your you know your guidance your input your thoughts into account and our thinking and withdrew um out of good faith. Um, I I do think just to kind of emphasize what Rob was say saying, I do think we'd want to see like something happening like like meaningful doesn't necessarily have to have reached its conclusion um over the next couple months, but like that there's meaningful progress towards that so that we feel like it is it is something that's intentionally being picked up um by the select board and moved forward in some way. Um recognizing again like this is one of many important issues that you're dealing

120with and there's more and more things coming out all the time um to look at. But I think it's I think that's that was our hope um when we withdrew that was sort of okay we'll do this we're going to try to meet you and and have this collaborative process through it. So we'd like to see that kind of and be reciprocated. And Susan, thank you. Well, thank you for everything that you do. Um but um yeah, I I just to clarify, I just wanted to to make sure that, you know, because we nothing's been started yet, you know, saying that we're going to have XYZ done by by this date, I didn't want to get into that kind of trap because then when you do that and it doesn't or it doesn't happen or

121it doesn't happen the way you want, you know, then it's like, oh goodness, we've completely failed. Um, so I think pursuant to and building on what you said, I think if if if we do do a subcommittee, I think one of the first things that we'd have to do is kind of identify like what what we're actually trying to accomplish within a certain period of time and plan, you know, you know, what are we trying to do? Let's then figure overall and then figure out like what your goals are within certain time periods and such. I mean, so I didn't want to make it sound like, oh, yeah, you know, we'll just have perpetual meetings and nothing will happen. Like, that's not I don't think that's the intent of what we were talking about up

122here. >> No, but I think I just wanted to clear clarify that. >> Yeah. The difference between like we're going to have this done in 8 weeks versus like yes, we'll be working. >> I I just want us Yeah. I just don't want us to to set like impossible guidelines rather uh deadlines and such uh and then feel like we've failed because we haven't reached them. And there there are other matters too that we have to consider. And Rob, you you you know this and being a board member, there's some things that we need to discuss with town council to make sure we stay in the guidelines of what has to be done properly. Uh we have to, you know, we're in the public eye all the time. So we have to make sure we

123do everything on the up and up with with respect to, you know, decisions that are being made or policies are going to be worked on. We don't target individuals. >> Um that's not what we do. uh we target uh ideologies more than anything else and try to change those for the betterment of everybody. Um and I know in this in this climate is probably a very difficult thing to do but damn it we have to try the best way we can. We may not be successful in what we try to do. Um, you know, it's David against Goliath right now. Um, to use that that that that model, but be happy to uh be part of that if need be. I um have a lot of free time. My wife would love to have me

124get involved in something else. Just like just like Marshall is enjoying the fact that you're here in front of >> Tell Y. >> Michael does have a question for you folks. >> Yeah. So I was just um probably a question more for the board. >> Um you know as Joe alluded to, at some point you're going to have an intersection here where where the values and the legal will need to connect at some point. So my question is is I think at some point there's probably makes sense to have a conversation with Lisa, you know, and so my question would be and I think Beth should be involved as uh the the procurement director, but I'm thinking the conversation with Lisa, do you want to meet first and kind of really have an idea of

125what your overall values are before you meet with her or do you want to do it the other way around? meet with her first and kind of get some >> I don't think that makes I don't I think you know first off sorry Michael I did not mean to cut you off >> that's okay >> second off um I think it goes back to what Brandy said you know I think you know we have to establish the values our foundational values and I think the working group or whatever has to establish that >> and then I think the next stop to your point is legal and say this is what we're thinking >> okay >> what what are your thoughts about that >> okay >> before we get too far down. >> I would I

126would support that, right? That they need before before we bring Lisa in to review something, we have to have something for her to raise. >> Yeah, there's there's a question, you know, you know, whether you wanted to have kind of like the guard rails put up first or do you want to actually go and and have kind of like what your values are, like you said, kind of laid out. >> I think sometimes that is the better way, especially when you're talking about bigger picture things like values and goals. big picture goals. >> Yeah, exactly. So, I think it's Yeah, I think it gets like that. So, >> all right. So, we'll plan on that. >> Does that sound good? >> I was hoping that at least So, how would you do you agree with

127the concept of having a subcommittee and when and how would you appoint people to it? Would you do that tonight? We've given you three names. I mean, are there you know, do you do you support this concept? And are you willing to take action? >> When you say willing to take action tonight that to appoint people. Um, >> well, let's make sure. Let's let's let's determine what kind of body is. I mean, is it a subcommittee or is it a working group? And, you know, is there what's the distinction >> between the two? Let's talk about that might be the first question for Lisa, like to find out like what the advantages and disadvantages of what that body what that group should look like. We could get a quick answer on that. Well, I mean,

128I can tell you. So, if you want to have one of you, you don't want to officially appoint that person. You want to be able to kind of meet in >> Sorry, I apologize. Um, if you want to have a more flexible, you know, uh, structure, a little bit more nimble, I think probably the best, you know, the best thing to do, um, let me think. I think I'm trying to think. I'm pretty sure it's just one, you know, you could only ask one person of the board to kind of work with that group. Um, if you get the two, I think you have to do the formal appointment and then it becomes a subcommittee and open meeting law and all. >> Does it have to be like one person at all times or could

129you have like people tag in and tag out? >> No, that's a qu No, I don't know that. I don't know that answer. >> I'm just thinking just Well, for instance, like you know, I'm kind of sick right now. >> Yeah. >> I mean, not terribly. I'm coming. I'm not contagious you guys. It's fine. But I but you know I'm just saying that like okay like I'm the you know the president's just like oh gosh I'm sick. Okay well then nothing really happens because the board representative isn't >> actually I think that would be fine because the working group aspect is nothing like official. Right. >> Right. I mean there there's certainly intent behind it. >> So if I'm not there then it's like oh hey Joe can you can you go to this meeting

130because I can't. >> Exactly. And that would that would be okay. >> Yes. >> But the both of us can't attend the meeting at the same time. Or can we? >> No, you can't attend the meeting at the same time >> unless we create a subcommittee and you post and take meetings. >> Yeah. You can't do the working group format to >> So I mean I don't know. Could you have >> sorry >> you know somebody who is doing it regularly and then have somebody else drop in to because you kind of want to stay informed. You know what I mean? So, it's would be great to have Makita be our point person, but you know, I know Joe and I know I would like to maybe attend once in a while and hear what's

131the conversation like so that we I'm sort of on board before, >> right? The only the only thing is I was going to say the only thing is >> is if because you're going to be discussing something that's going to come before our whole board, >> you can't >> both be there. >> Good point. >> If you were talking if you were talking about hanging out at the farmers market next weekend, that's a different thing, right? >> But if we'll be there, >> I know bring shovel >> all these people are going to show up at the farmers market next week. >> Um >> but but that but that's sort of the thing. If we're going to deliberate on something, it only can be one person or two people for a subcommittee. >> We're going

132to have to >> It can't be an appointment >> like an official appointment. You can do that. I like the point person raising. >> Okay. >> So, do we feel like we need to run that by I think we understand, right? If it's one person, it's a working group with three of them their members and then, you know, Makita can't be there so someone else goes, that's fine. But no votes to appoint right unless we want to make it a subcommittee and say okay two people are going to be there it'll be posted there'll be minutes taken so that if people want to know about it >> well maybe you start with the not it's not working and if you decide look it would be good to have two of us >> and maybe that's

133the first meeting maybe we just do a working group let's do a working group meeting and we let's kind of talk through not values but also structure and kind of figure that out and then we we come back we can figure out >> I have a feeling that that's the direction that we're probably going to be going. >> Yeah, I was going to say I think at some point we're going to want this as a subcommittee so that the discussion and that happens becomes public record, right? So people can go back to it and say, "Well, what was talked about?" And rather than have it just show up at the select board meeting. >> You know what? I I actually now I'm kind of leaning just towards a subcommittee at this point because we want

134to make sure that we're being transparent about this and I don't want anybody to say that we're not. >> Yeah. >> So I think maybe that is the the right structure. Plus it allows other other um select board members to attend. It also allows other people if they want to go if they want a public meeting so people can >> they can hear what the discussion is and they can give their input >> and I think that's important. So you know I don't think we want to you know exclude or rather we want to be as transparent as possible during this process. So you know I think maybe that's that's probably the way to go. >> And I would say from my experience that we did appoint a number of subcommittees fairly routinely. It wasn't

135like a huge a huge deal. I my feeling is I'm not the town council, but you could pick two people and vote them in tonight and start this process as a public, you know, as a subcommittee. I mean, committee. >> Yeah. Regarding the transparency thing, I think you could think of it a couple of different ways and I don't know if this would help you. Um you if this is a policy that the board would take up and it would be a you know that would be where the vote ultimate vote would be taken you might you know especially consider having some of those meetings open in public just because >> the the virtue of how visible things are. If you're looking at ultimately a town meeting vote for something which you know is very

136visible, right? You know, and and process uh process oriented, you know, you might lean more towards the working group format, you know, knowing the transparency >> would emerge kind of later in the process. >> Just a couple different ways to think about it. >> Audible sigh. Um, so audible side. Um, okay. Um, >> Rob, if we were to give this a a week for people to make their decisions, unless you know to think about it, you guys, I should say ladies, are you ready to make a decision tonight or do you want to give us some thought? >> Thinking >> like the about >> structure >> how it should be structured or >> like give it a day or two? Well, it sounds like it sounds like we're leaning towards a subcommittee. >> That's what

137it sounds like to me. >> Is it >> so I would make a suggestion that we can discuss like who we who might be willing to do it. >> But if we're going to appoint a subcommittee, we actually have to put names on the agenda and >> like next >> meeting. Okay. >> That's the issue. We've appointed subcommittees without it being like when we've talked about grant programs like the BAA grant, we often talk about that and then appoint the subcommittee and the specifics like that. >> No, >> are not on the agenda if I'm correct. >> And and maybe we should maybe we should be doing that. >> Okay. >> Um you know, >> obviously there's going to be a little bit more eyes on a subcommittee related to this, I think, out of

138its origins than something like the BAA grant. So, you know, just >> bear that in mind out there. >> So, >> and I think I think I think Makita hit it on her head when she said, you know, transparency matter of this is uh is very important. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> So, >> let's do it right. >> Yeah. Let's do it right. Yeah. >> So, are there people that So, I'm hearing Makita, you would be willing to >> Yes. >> and >> somebody else. >> So, you'll have to do the vote next meeting, correct? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. Okay. >> All right. >> That at least gives you some time to think about it. >> All right. I would just, you know, we are concerned about the passage

139of time and I know everything takes time, but we appreciate you moving ahead on this. So, we expect next meeting you'll you'll appoint, it sounds like you'll take a formal vote and appoint a subcommittee or at least you're leaning in that direction. >> Yeah. And that's on the 21st. >> The 21st. >> That work. And is the general outight seem agreeable to people at this point like the structure u with the two and the three or would you prefer something a little different or any any thoughts on that? >> That's fine. Yeah. >> You don't want to make it too big. You know that, right? Too big of a committee and you don't want it too small. You don't want it too big. Yeah. Whatever. >> Do we know before the next meeting who's going

140to >> No. on. >> No, they're gonna they have to vote on at the next meeting. We'll put it on the agenda that we'll have a vote and people will determine who they want to do it and then we'll vote those people in >> and you'll need the names the proposed other members. >> The proposed other members from you guys, that would be good to have. >> So, if you shoot an email off to me, Rob, that'd be fun. >> Okay, great. >> All right, great. >> All right. Thank you all. >> Thank you very much. >> Nice seeing you all again. >> Yep. Same here. >> Happy. Anytime you want to talk about the advice of the MBTA, let me know. Not to change the subject, but >> No, you're not. That's fine. >>

141All right. Thanks everybody. >> As long as we don't get three stops every day. >> Good rest of the night. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right. Thank you everyone. Appreciate you all being there for that. Okay, moving right along. Uh time to open the annual town meeting warrant warrant guidelines. >> Right. Right. >> Right. >> Hello. >> Yeah. >> Hello. >> I said the same thing. >> So, I'll turn it over to Catherine. Time doesn't stop for anybody. >> Okay. Right. >> Yeah. >> We're good. Four months from >> four months from today is town meeting. >> Okay. >> So, >> Katherine, you're on you're on the block. >> All right. So, hopefully tonight we will open the warrant and so we have some guidance that is um included in your backup. >> So, we

142will send that out um as long as it is open tonight. So February 27th is the deadline for the notice of intent to submit proposed articles. The 27th, I'm sorry, February 27th through April 24th will be for select board presentations and discussions. February 28th through April 24th will be public hearings if any. On March 23rd, 27 is Nope, that should say 26, not 2027. um is the deadline for finalized proposed articles. So any changes need to be in by March 23rd. Um April 1st, uh we'll have the warrant um in front of you so we can vote and close and then post the warrant um April 27th we are going to have finance committee recommendations. the 29th the warrants posted and then May 6th uh will be annual town meeting and within the guidance it

143just gives everybody the um my email address so they can send me any of their proposed warrant articles and that's about it. Any questions? >> Nothing new. >> I I have one. I know we have a lot going on, but do we want to try and post it a week sooner? I mean, a week before count, I know we typically do, but I don't know. I'm just putting it out there asking the question and >> Yeah. So, Yolanda, which date specifically are you looking at? >> Well, so right now we're looking at um have the warrant posted no later than April 29th. >> Yeah. So, we're hoping to actually close it post it, I'm sorry, on the on the 1. But Katherine wanted to put the, you know, that's the latest you could post it

144is the 29th. >> Okay. So, we're hope because >> we're we're not looking for finance committee recommendations until April 27th. And again, that's >> just a week before town meeting. Um I I think that >> it should be 10 days, I believe. Um and >> one, two, three, four, five, that's only seven, right? Because that's the Monday and then town meeting is the sixth. I just know that there's going to be a lot of financial stuff on this town meeting warrant and I'm wondering if we want to have it if we can certainly the finance committee recommendations a little bit sooner >> and so that we're not waiting until the last minute on budget decisions because we know we're going to have to have a few options available to the to the community and the

145clearer and sooner >> we can get that to them I think would be better. >> Yeah. you know, can we plan on having having those financial recommendations the no later than the 22nd because that's two weeks before town meeting instead of the 27th. I I don't know. I just something to think about if we need to. >> Good point. >> Yes, for sure. So after uh the last town meeting, we did a debrief with Adam just to talk through all of these dates and deadlines. And one of the suggested deadlines was at least 10 days, 10 calendar days. So it is 10 calendar days, but we actually want to have it posted April 1st. >> And then um once it's closed, it will be posted and then we plan to meet with finance committee. My

146goal is to do it either that week or the week after. And so my goal is to try to have it done a lot sooner. Um noticed >> if we could if we could have a final >> 10 day 10 working days because you know people I know understand calendar days it includes the weekends but >> I don't know something to to think about if we could push it to the 22nd instead of the 20 29th >> for sure. And you'll notice nice to have those recommendations ahead way ahead of schedule instead of >> Yep. >> two days before. >> And there are some new deadlines on here and that was just something that we're trying to hold our ourselves accountable to so that there's hopefully not as many um changes towards the end. We'll

147see if it works. >> You know, special town meeting, we were looking at changes till the very last minute, right? And and again, circumstances, what we were looking at, different things like that. Um, but I think we need to if if we want the the community to feel confident in the information and what we're asking them, we need to make sure that we have accurate information going into it. >> Yeah. I think um I think with the exception of having to create a second town meeting essentially um you know it was a very similar process. It felt very similar in terms of rhythm and just, you know, kind of chaos >> towards the end. But yeah, the um the second town meeting really kind that's a that's a new one for us. So, >> and

148again, that to me, you know, and again, you guys have done a debrief. We haven't heard a report on that debrief. I mean, how did we even get to have to have I mean, I know some of the details of that special town meeting within the town meeting. I mean, I think people did very well with understanding it once we got there, but it was, I'll admit, a little disappointing that we got as far as we did and then it was like, oh, well, it wasn't we didn't quite have everything right. Yeah. Actually, what we did is we rushed it and we um we had the the board close and post it. >> Mhm. >> Uh before before we before we typically do >> and so what happens is once that's done, you can't make

149any changes. And so then the other thing I would say is >> yeah we meet twice a month but if something needs to be pushed by a week >> we do virtual meetings all the time rather than saying oh well we have to do it by this time because that's when we have a meeting and we don't have a meeting for another two weeks. Okay let's add a meeting to discuss this particular item. I mean maybe that that's a way to handle it rather because you Michael you're saying we felt rushed because we had to get it posted. Um well that I mean we we internally we pushed that like I said we we pushed it faster than what we typic what our typical cadence is >> and that was that was the price that

150we paid for it is that we didn't have that flexibility when we did discover >> you know oh man there was there was a mistake here >> right >> we had to create that special town meeting to do it as opposed to be able to just change it before the board you know posted >> all things to think about and look Yeah, definitely. >> And determine >> definitely. >> Okay. I move that we uh open uh the annual town meeting warrant based on the current guidelines and this will be for the annual town meeting happening on May 6th, 2026. >> I'll second that. >> All those in favor? >> I 50. >> Unanimous. And thank you for preparing all that. Thank you, Catherine and Michael. Appreciate that. did that one. Uh next on the old

151new business um discuss project matrix. >> Yeah, I realize we haven't discussed you know some of our our larger projects you know that are >> in the pipeline >> that that are actually you know being worked on and and actually starting to you know a lot of progress has been made up into the winter. Of course, now with the seasons changing, a lot of activities stopped, but uh there's still a few things going on. So, just with downtown, you know, we're still in the process of making those underground connections, working with Dagel Electric and Eversource. Uh I did get a good update from Diane today that um Eversource is telling us that as soon as those things are ready, those connections are made then Verizon Comcast should be ready to do their piece, start taking

152the wires down and then the poles will start immediately coming down. And so, uh, what I've talked to Diane about now is just kind of making sure and as we get some more fidelity as to when the date those poles are coming down are, we start timing things up so we can come in and do kind of like that final refresh after those are done because we'll have to, you know, fill back in with concrete or brick depending on where the poles are and just, you know, I'd like to do some power washing and everything just kind of spruce everything up before kind of like a final unveiling. So, um, that is really moving forward. So, are they all running off of the underground utilities now? >> Not all of them. Nope. No, >> some

153of them are. As >> some of them are. Um, and then some they're doing like testing everything and making sure that it's working. >> Do they I guess the question is do they complete it one by one or do they complete a whole group at once where they turn it on? >> I don't know. That's a good That's a good question. Um, that's a good question, >> Claudia. When you say group, do you mean different the different utilities or an area >> users? >> Okay. >> Yeah. Like a like a block, you know, almost. >> Um, >> but yeah, >> but Ever Source is done. >> Well, they're still doing the connections and then they have to take their wires down >> once all the connections are made. >> Okay. So, they still have not

154completed all their connections. >> Correct. Correct. But they they >> done, 40% done, 70% done. >> I'll get that for you. >> Okay. It would be good to know where they're at in the process. >> And then and I guess my other question sort of follow with Claudia is are we are we waiting for Eversource to finish their connections and then the other utilities will start doing their connections or as Eversource finishes then Comcast can start? It's really more my understanding is that they're really like one utility company has to finish before the other can >> other start. >> Thank you. >> So then it seems like a seems like there's a lot left to do. >> Well, you know, Diane's date is uh April. You have 2026 for the polls to come down. So,

155>> so >> you know that's >> so I guess right now Ever Source is working and they have to complete every every tiein before Comcast starts correct >> they go through that's my understanding >> okay so when did they start tying in >> December >> yeah just recently that was >> I at the time I thought that that was a >> turning on the lights type of deal >> process >> yeah so they make you know they make sure all the underground connections are are good and then they start taking um >> you know they start firing it up and I think they have taken some things down where it makes sense >> um and they can >> like if there's not another like utility or comm uh communications provider and um yeah I mean

156I think they're doing like you know three or four a day but you know there's there's still challenges as with every construction project you Especially when you got a contractor in Eversource in the town kind of trying to triangulate things. >> Yeah. >> How about for 10 to 60 main? >> Right. So they're they've they have an underground connection right now for each of those buildings and the connection will have to stay underground, right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And how many? There's Eversource, Comcast, who else that has it? Verizon >> Verizon >> um and then I want to say like um like an RCN. I think they use like a Comcast or Verizon's wires. >> Oh, >> and then we also have our fiber our fiber wire downtown, >> right? >> Yep. >> So

157potentially April F come down. >> Yeah. >> Seems like a lot to happen. So what's interesting is in Hopkin it like happened like that like all of a sudden you saw you heard that things were happening and then the polls were gone. >> Yeah. It it is like one of those it almost feels sometimes like legal things where there's no activity, no update, nothing. Nothing nothing. And then there's a flurry, you know, and that happens. >> Flurry. >> Flurries. Yes. >> No kind. Um, and then Pawn Street, uh, there's I think I notified you that they had found that there was basically some substandard concrete that was used on one of the sidewalks and they're going to have to redo that in the spring. But there's a few other things. Um, some, you know, utility

158pole work remaining, old street lights, signs, manholes, adjustments. Um, >> Michael, while you're on that, while you're on that subject, I'm going to interrupt you on that. Mhm. >> Um we got a letter uh from one of the residents that live off of uh Pawn Street who's responsible for the uh snow plowing of the sidewalks down there because that wasn't um that wasn't addressed and they're still covered with a lot of snow and people want to use the new sidewalks. They can't because they're covered with snow. >> Yeah. So the state is we have been when we can going in there and doing it you know because trying to pick up the slack. >> So >> but the state is actually responsible >> responsible for it >> and we build them back if we go

159in and do them. >> Um we can yeah we can definitely send them an invoice. >> I mean if they're not doing it and they need to be done and we do them worth trying. I I um you you can't get it if you don't ask. >> Exactly. >> So, >> good point. >> So, with a couple projects that uh are completed, let's see, the middle school field lighting project that was completed. Um a lot of the traffic calming measures that we had planned uh on some of the streets, those street signs, uh those have been completed. Uh the uh sidewalk for high so Cedar Street the design's been completed >> for what? >> Um a sidewalk I'm sorry >> On Cedar Street. Yeah. >> All of Cedar Street. >> No. So section from Captain

160to um >> East Union. >> Okay. >> And then um High Street >> and then High Street as well. Um Do these have a time frame for when they're going to start work or >> No. Um >> these these are just the the planning designs. >> Yeah. Do we have an estimated cost? I mean, do we as far as like what what we would need to budget for those? >> I think we do for Cedar Street, Brandy. I don't know it off the top of my head. I don't have it here. But um we don't for High Street yet, but I think we do for >> What side are we putting it on? Cedar Street, >> the fire station side or the other side? >> I believe it's the fire station side. >> Okay, >>

161which is pretty interesting, especially around the Workman Circle camp, you know, right coming out of >> We're going to have to knowight >> the bridge. >> It's pretty tight. >> I know. >> Um let's see. Oh, the Union Street Fountain Street job. Y >> So, you know, the underground work has been completed. Uh contractors going to come in before um the 2026 Marathon >> uh to clean that up. >> When is when when is when are they going to be done over there on um Fruit and Elliot Street? Yes, >> that's something people ask me about all the time. >> People are asking me about that all the time, too. the >> the digging that they're still doing. >> I mean, Fruit Street's closed lots of days. >> I don't know. >> Yeah, we it'd

162be great to find out what's going on over there because I I have been pinged about that as well. >> There's a specific crossing over there. Be very happy to know that answer >> is that that's all they're ask all the time. When is it going to get done? >> Oh, they ask >> they ask all the time. When's it going to get done? How do I know? >> Yeah, >> I don't know. I don't know. >> We're still doing the >> experience like that with the flight attendant. Don't ask us. We don't know. >> We're still um in the engineering design or the state is um the engineering design phase for Cordville Road Bridge. Yeah. >> Prog progress is happening on the Warren Barn. >> Yes. um >> move to the fun stuff. Yeah,

163Arboritum that's that's in great shape and that's kind of in the >> it's growing, you know, it'll start, you know, going through its growing phases. Um Warren Barn, they've started uh if they haven't started framing yet, there's going to they're going to start framing quickly. They had to do some underpinnings on the silos. >> What kind of stuff? >> Foundation. >> That's a concrete one. >> Yep. >> Um >> do they not have the It doesn't look like it from the street. Is the um ice skating rink not going to be up this year? >> No, just because of the construction. >> I thought because of the construction. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I had people ask about it. I'm like, "Yeah, no. With the construction, they can't do it." >> Yeah. Um the dog park

164is is moving along because you know that obviously they've stopped for the uh season, you know, for the for winter. You know, Beth, there was some really challenging aspects of that. It turned out to be a beach. Um, under >> instead of finding a lot of rock, they found a lot of sand. Sand. >> Yeah. Sand like like beach sand. >> Like something got put there or something at some point. >> So um so Best done a really masterful job of um kind of work working that problem and and and making sure it's not too much of an impact. >> Years ago. >> Oh, really? Well, where we live, you know, >> it was all sand. It was all sand. So, it's not too far. I mean, >> yeah, but Whitmore, it's it stopped at

165the base of Whitmore. >> Well, we thought you thought >> Well, yeah, but um yeah, so just a brief update on some of the bigger ones just in the interest of time. I'll get this um I'll get this sheet updated at the end of January and get you a hard copy of it too. >> Thank you. >> Great. >> And that's the big really big sheet. >> We never really completed that, did we? >> Different thing different. >> Yeah, this this was the big the big sheet with everything. So >> with all the colors >> and other one's in advance right now because of all >> everything else that's going on. I I just would say, >> right, >> everybody's pressed for time. That's one less thing we have to deal with until we deal

166with a major issue. Okay. Uh just to remind everybody that uh February 4th, uh we have our open meeting law training from 6:00 to 7:00 p.m. And I believe it's going to be here, right? >> Here and hybrid. >> And hybrid, right? Okay, that' be great. >> So that's just before our meeting, right? >> Yeah, which is fine. Try to make it easy for everybody and update on 40bs, my friend. >> Okay. Um, so we'll start off with 10 to 60 main. Um, and that is anticipated to be closed out this coming Tuesday. uh some draft conditions have been done. Um as as we know there's still some discussion around some of the dis u the decision some of the conditions within the decision. Um and so that's those discussions will continue up until um

167up until they don't up until they can't. So um so that's the update on that. My understanding is that they also are are anticipating filing with the conservation commission soon. So, you know, they've got to go through that. >> You just describe the process, then once the ZBA finishes and what's that all look like? >> So, once the ZBA closes, you know, their hearing and issues a decision >> or the hearing, I'm sorry. Yeah. After the hearing's closed, they issued the decision. um after a period I believe it's 180 days of of no appeal you know or there's a certificate of no appeal um you know it's it's clear you know to go um if there is an appeal either by the applicant or by uh the town although in this case that would be

168very very difficult because it'd be the town issuing the decision um or potential outside party I don't know what that looks like exactly. Um then obviously that process would run its course. It needs to go to the HAC. That's an administrative procedure. You know, if it goes through the court system, that would probably be done in superior court or housing court, I should say, or land court, I should say. Um >> we know how the land court works because we're still waiting on the decision from February. >> No. Yeah. >> Yeah. come February 25. >> Yeah, January or February. Um and then so with the conservation commission, you know, once that's filed, I believe I'm going to say it's 20 days they have to open the hearing. um once they get an application and then

169you know there's the conservation commission would be hearing the applicant in relation to the wetlands protection act and not necessarily the and not the town's bylaw you know conservation bylaw so that's 10 to 60 Main Street 61 um has their decision from the ZBA DA uh but they have filed with the conservation commission. Um the conservation commission and DP uh have very serious concerns with their storm water system and have asked them to go and redesign it >> at 61 Waverly. So that is very um >> there's a significant uh concern about that the Culbert and Waverly Street. Yeah. Yeah. they they have a significant concern about that meaning D and the commission. >> What's the concern? >> Um that it's not in it's in a degraded condition essentially and you can't handle that. >>

170So if it's in a degraded condition then whose responsibility is it to bring it into condition? the conscious >> I'm sorry to something. >> So who who determines who decides that? >> Who's who decides that whose responsibility it is? >> That's a good question. That's a good question. >> I think we should ask it. ask. >> I mean, I think >> keeps pointing back. >> Well, maybe we need to ask somebody besides the developer. >> Yeah. >> But I mean, it at the end of the day, it doesn't meet the storm water standards. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> right. >> And he won't get a permit if he doesn't do that. So, >> he can't get a storm water. >> So, in that way, it falls on him. >> It falls on him. >> Okay.

171>> Whether or not he wants it to fall on him or not. If he wants a permit, he probably needs to >> cut it. >> Thank you. >> Oh, thank you for your clarification, Brandy. >> And that's just my take. I don't really know. >> It sounds like this is a question for town council. >> And they're involved. >> Okay. Okay. >> Yeah, they they're >> maybe we don't want to discuss it anymore right now. >> No, no, but this is good good information here. Um and then uh 55 West Union is uh also there are some significant concerns uh from the conservation commission, from DPW, uh from DP related to that project as well. Um you know, one particular issue is the location of the sewer line. Um you know, they they they wanted

172they want to do a significant amount of work in and put it pretty deep. So, um, and it just doesn't doesn't work out. So, >> doesn't work out on your property, works out on the street. >> Yeah. Um, and I don't know what the resistance is to that, but um, yeah, there's something. But, uh, there's a there's a location of the sewer line in regards to their property or just with the sewer line in general. zigzags in their in their in their property on their property. Have to zigzag. >> Yep. Put your mic on, Joe. And talk into it. >> Sorry about that. It would it zigzags on their property where if they went straight out onto the street and dig up that whole area. It's a straight line right into But it's deep. Like

173Michael was saying, it's deep. >> Yeah. And >> so by zigzagging by zigzagging they get around making having to spend the money to put it make it deep. Is that it? >> I I don't think that's it. >> Okay. Just >> So what's the motivation to zigzag instead of just going straight >> because of the uh >> I think it's ledge. >> Yeah. The the ledge on the building itself where they where they plan on putting it. Um the other thing that is is probably a little bit more complicated. Um >> I'm simplifying the >> Yeah. is is of course a paper related thing which is that property and around that property has a number of easements um from related entities on that. And I think um you know that's probably all I'll say about

174it right now, but just there it's a it's a complex web and there's a lot of permissions that need to be you know had and all that stuff. >> So yeah, those are our 40B projects. Thank you for the update, Michael. >> Next on the agenda is the consent agenda. >> I move that we approve the consent agenda as presented. >> There a second. >> I'll second that. >> All those in favor? I >> that's >> I also move that we go past 10 o'clock. >> I don't want to move that. >> We can get we can get this we can get this. >> I'll second that. >> We'll get down real quick. >> We got to vote it. >> I I >> I >> thank you. But we can do it quick. >> Okay.

175>> Budget update, sir. And next tri board meeting. Yeah. >> So, I think you know, well, I know Susan has sent around um you know, some potential dates for our next tri board meeting and I think, you know, we're we're zooming in or coming in on a couple. It >> really good if we could do one before one of our meetings rather than I know >> that's what >> Oh, really? Yeah. That's what it looked like to me. I just voted so >> Okay. Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah. And I think um you know we we want to have a a substantive discussion on a on a couple of different aspects of the budgetary issue that we're talking about. And I think number one we need to figure out any kind of refinements that you

176want with option three. Um after you've had some time to think about it uh I might have some potential things to think about or some recommendations even. Um I one thing I want to say is that I know that Jim is looking at this um very methodically in the sense that you know he's not just approaching this as okay this is just how do we you know how do we advocate for more money for the budget he is really looking at this as okay how can I restructure the budget to make it more sustainable you know, moving forward with this with this >> that's a good thing considering the last two years the amount of one-time funds we used >> and and I think um you know definitely I think that's it's a good thing.

177It's something that needs to be done and I think we're going to do the same thing actually even though our budgetary situation is a little bit different or it looks like it's going um you know in the way of option three not exactly the same path as the schools is but I do think it is an opportunity for us and I conveyed that to department heads today that you know we need to look at finding efficiencies and you know doing what we can we're always doing that but we really need to kind of in a way zerobase our budget again and start looking at at that. I I don't want to throw another financial term out there that's oh my god level funded level service zerobased you know everybody's going to be having a hard

178time with that but um the other thing I want to mention is that we're going to look at having a budget meeting with those department heads like we usually do and invite um you and the finan committee to that might be a little bit different this year in a sense that it the the total of the meeting might be a little longer longer. Um we're going to have people coming in basically by functional area, you know, administration and finance, um public safety, community center. U just because there's going to be more level of question and answer at at that stage than there is typically when um when we all meet. Um, so that's that and then the one thing I'm going to ask or one things I have asked them to be prepared to talk

179about is the implications the service implications of a level funded budget like you know what what does that look like from a service level >> exactly like this is what happens um I'd like to rephrase that rather than what are we going to lose what are we deciding not to do. I mean, yes, there's a loss for some of that, but I think it's what what are we potentially deciding not to do? I think that that's I mean, I think the public wants us to have a discussion that way and not just what are we losing because we might decide, you know what, we want to do all of this and that's what we then have to support and and defend to the community. The one concern I have about that though is that it

180may be unclear to people that if we decide not to do it then existing services or whatever will will be lost. It will go away. And so just from a communication standpoint it it it's difficult but like I I I I do think that maybe saying that like if we it's a maybe it's a combination of these things. If you say like if we decide to do this then we're gonna lo if we decide not to do this then we're gonna lose this >> right that's fine >> I think that's fine but I think we just need to make it very clear that if we make a if we make decision X then these are the consequences >> these are the impacts and consequences yeah >> that you know that's all well and good for

181certain things in community right I mean you could say all right right now we plow your sidewalk if we do this we're not going to plow the sidewalks Right. It's it's harder to I think capture what it might mean in certain in certain areas of government or in education, right? You know, right now we it's we teach your kids this. Now we're going to only teach this or we're going to have >> right now we offer 15 sports. We're going to offer 10 sports. >> Well, we're already killing people with sports fees. So, I mean, >> but yeah, and that's why I think that The language the language of loss in this particular circumstance clearly communicates what is occurring and so we shouldn't drop that but I think a combination of that approach saying like

182if we decide to do this then this is what we lose or these and here are the additional consequences or the impacts of that decision >> but we have to be clear about it >> and and I also think like one thing that would be helpful is as we go through this process us to have things be quantifiable. Like I think if it's one thing to say, okay, well, you know, we're going to not be able to respond to as many calls from, you know, from our fire department, >> but what does that mean? >> And you know, we've we've done x amount of calls in 2025. these these are the amount of times that we needed mutual aid or this is the amount of times that we've sent firefighters to another community and what

183that looks like. The average time that it takes for an ambulance to get to somebody's house is 3.2 minutes and that could lengthen if we if we're not if we don't have if if we have to you know we're not going to have as many people on a shift. What does that mean? And you know, maybe that means >> we lose the opportunity to have another ambulance on the road to cover up >> the material impacts. >> Yeah. >> And the thing of it is too, I think like I mean obviously we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves, but we've had the conversation about the capital the capital budget and being able to do some of these things that are pretty much deferred maintenance, whether it's the turf fields or whether it's a roof on

184the schools or whatever it is. We have to also include that into the sort of this quantifiable thing because if we don't have if we don't have a roof on Pitway that means that kids cannot go to preschool there. >> That's right. >> What does that mean for the community? The other thing I'd like to do is I'd like to recommend is that any public meeting we have we offer the time for citizens to either ask questions or give us their input. I I gota >> so that so that the discussion it's not just us and school committee and finance committee and as part of our process as our budget process and our planning process we are building in public forums to talk about this and give pe you know so after the budget meeting

185that you have with your department heads we plan something that says okay this is what was discussed and this is what we're looking at because I think It's important to have this discussion with the public. >> Oh, absolutely. I think there's going to be a point I would say like >> at this tri board meeting once a decision is made like it's really getting I would think it's really getting handed off to us to school committee and finance committee to come to come up with a plan of how we're going to execute this. And it's going to be about the communication. It's going to be about >> the public forums. It's going to have different components that that we're driving. >> Um, >> and time is going to be like critical. Like we were just

186talking, we just opened the warrant. Like we are, it's January. If we do not have a decision for like let's hope we can get this done in two weeks and then basically hit the ground running for February 1st, we've got like we've got three months and not even really truly like three whole months. We've got we've got to be able to make that case by like midappril. Like people have to understand it >> and and it's a two-step process, right? We have to have it pass the town meeting and it has to get on the ballot. >> Yeah. >> When do we have to close the ballot? Oh, I want to say 55 days before is Yeah, it just happened. >> So, at our next meeting, we're talking about when the election is and when

187the ballot has to be closed. >> Yeah. I want to say March is is usually when you date it that that's like the latest, >> right? >> So, you'd want to have >> Right. Because papers become available as of February 1. >> Yeah, that's actually the point. So, >> the first >> I think it's typically the >> Yeah, I I mean it it's interesting. And I think um just hearing, you know, some of the conversation um I'll be honest, some of the the lack of conversation really kind of over I mean this it's been a little quiet and I was surprised and um I think um this is going to be an interesting discussion for the community to have. I would just caution you to just always check kind of like your motivations especially when

188you're engaging the public and you know like coming in like what what's the actual what are you trying to accomplish through that? I I know you know transparency obviously is is is the ultimate aim here and that's really really important and how does that relate to process and >> you know are you sure that you're giving everybody an equal opportunity to say something right >> or are things like intimidation and fear >> running through the community and keeping some voices from being >> heard which does happen and we know that happens everybody around this table knows that happens >> well that that's why we have to when we put the forums together we need to make sure that we're building them with that in mind. But the whole point is to make sure that people

189have an I have an opportunity to ask questions, uh, voice their concerns, and get answers in a public forum. >> Yeah, the public forum is great unless you feel scared to say something. That's a problem. >> I'd like us to look at is um, our select board office hours >> in the next >> folks. I I I I'm not sure if I'm being heard here. Um, your biggest concern is not the budget right now. It is the fact that you have some people who are scared to say anything because they're afraid they'll be targeted. >> I think we have to provide many different avenues for people to provide feedback, >> right? >> So public forum is definitely one of those avenues >> as we're putting together, you know, when we're putting together our communications plan

190around this. I mean there should be an email, there should be a this, there should be a that, but the public forum is also very important. And to your point, you know, things can things can happen in public forums. And and I'm not saying that they won't, but I think if we structure it correctly and make sure that we we do it respectfully, make sure that everybody that participates understands what the ground rules are. I don't think we have anything to to fear. We don't have anything to fear. I think are you concerned >> that people will try to intimidate or >> influence or harass one way or the other. >> I am concerned that if some people speak up and you know take certain positions that they will be targeted online I think they

191or you know through social media or you know some other way and made to feel like their voices don't count. That's what I'm concerned about. >> It happens. It's been happening. >> It's been happening. Yeah. >> So I I don't see anything different. We just have to >> and the communications plan that you that you commissioned and signed on to last year actually says that you are responsible for ensuring a forum and community space that is safe, >> right, >> for everybody to speak. >> So that's what we're going to do. I mean, >> okay, >> you know, but I I think it's important to voice these concerns because, you know, as we go forward and we structure these events, there's going to be a way that we structure them that's going to make sure

192that we can adhere to those values. And that's why we're doing it. >> And I think we're going to have to be prepared. >> Yeah. >> To help people say to help people understand that we're going to be hearing from both sides. >> That's right. Yeah. >> And our goal as part of this will be to keep the conversation civil >> and not let it get personal and not let it not let language get used like we heard tonight. >> Right. Talking about the zealots against smoking. >> Right. >> I think if we hear that language, we immediately have to say rethink how you're saying this, please. Because the conversation has to be kept civil. We're all in this community together and people have a right to have their voice heard but not in a

193way where you're attacking someone else. >> Yeah. >> Correct. We have to establish ground rules, >> rules of engagement, all these things. That's what I meant by structure, Yolanda. And that's been Michael, you know, I think if we we do that and and do, you know, do our pre-work, you know, we just don't go to a room and open a mic and let people speak into it. That's not how that's going to be conducted. But if we structure it correctly, make sure that we're, you know, getting that feedback, reporting, recording that feedback, making sure that again that people >> feel safe, know that they can express their opinions. And people who don't, you know, they're going to they're they they they're going to have to figure out a way to share their opinions in a

194different way >> because that's not the forum >> if not in a public I'm sorry. Yeah. But yeah, so and we'll have to clearly communicate that before, during, and after. >> That's the preamble of of the special of a town meeting when Adam reads his >> pretty much >> his guidelines of how he wants the his meeting to run. >> That's right. >> No different than that. No different. Maybe more specificity around ground rules, but no different. >> Then this will be a good discussion. This will be >> I think so. I think it'll be a very good I mean it's it's time for the community to have the discussion. >> Yes. >> There also has to be opportunities for people to um submit, you know, questions, ideas, thoughts. I mean, I think it can

195be as simple as as a survey of some sort or >> Yeah. uh form that gets sent out in your emails and gives people the opportunity to um you know anonymously >> um >> give feedback >> feedback >> but I think if if you know I would encourage folks to not be anonymous in their feedback if they're doing it >> if they're doing it in a non-public forum I think it's important that people uh do give who give their names because first off if they have questions or concerns we want to make sure that we can get back to and address that specifically. >> U and the other thing is that we don't want to have like a barrage of bots or a barrage of automated, you know, people filling out forms or whatever, finding

196them online and stuffing the ballot box as it were with opinions that aren't real or >> No, I I don't think we if we don't, you know, if we make it anonymous so that people because some people won't respond if they have to provide an email, right? >> But why story? because they maybe because they think that, you know, we're going to share it or we're going to do something. They don't trust us, whatever. I mean, ideally, yeah, I'm in favor of okay, have people submit with email, but if they choose not to, we can certainly respond to those comments on a website. >> Yeah, I mean, we've had this question and this is the response to it. So, >> I think Yeah, I think people do need to understand though if they're going to

197submit anonymously, that's how they're going to get their response. like we can't obviously go to them and address their specific >> concern. I agree. I agree. I understand the limitations. >> I think we might need to have a discussion about this because my feeling is I mean anonymity has some benefit, but I want to make sure that the people who are responding are people who live in our community who who >> just because somebody doesn't live here though and I understand why. Yeah, it would be valuable to understand that we got a hundred responses and 50 of and they were all from people that live in our community and 50 of them raised this concern and 40 of them had this. >> I mean, I don't we wouldn't have that kind of data if we

198do it anonymously, right? Because we don't know who they are and why what their motivation is or anything else, but there's not that doesn't say that there isn't something that can be learned from that, right? that somebody put something out there that is >> similar similar again similar to what happened tonight right when we were talking about the nicotine free sure it was great to hear from all the different people but half of the people that spoke >> out of town >> we're not Ashland residents >> so I appreciate and I accept that information but in regards to for me personally regards to making a decision for Ashland as a community I give much more weight to people who live in our community who are going to be impacted by whatever decision we make. >>

199Yeah, I I certainly agree with you, but in terms of what somebody It's interesting to hear perspectives. >> I agree it's interesting to hear perspectives, >> especially when they've gone through it already, >> right? The the one thing I will say and then maybe we talk about this another time is that I I hear you both. I I do lean towards folks identifying themselves so that we can actually and it's that's really in my opinion more of almost like a customer service issue, right? Like how are we going to address concerns if we don't know your concerns if we don't know who you are? Um but you know on the other hand I do know that there are individuals here in town who do feel very intimidated with their interactions here with town hall and

200even with us. you know, we don't we want to make sure that we we do hear all of these voices. So, I think we've got to figure out a way to capture all those different pockets and constituencies from within town and make sure people don't feel intimidated or feel like they can't participate because they're scared to whatever the forum happens to be. >> The other thing also we got to think about is we also have to think about capacity. I'm hearing, you know, because there's, you know, in terms of being able to provide data and and things like that. So, yeah, this will be this will be interesting to navigate. Um, >> yeah. Well, we have to provide data. If people are asking something, we have to provide it. We have to find the capacity.

201We can't look like we've looked during the uh 40B hearing in >> I mean we can there are certain things that we know. The good news is is that we can probably anticipate a lot of those questions and be ready with a whole bunch of stuff. So it's not like we'd be starting from zero. >> Yeah. We're going to need to we're going to need to have sort of a basically >> you need like kind of a baseline sort of FAQ and like data you know >> I mean a lot of it you already putting together to even inform us. So >> right. So if we could just get can kind of get like that base that foundational level sort of information and then people may have more specific drill down stuff from there. Yeah.

202>> Foundation. >> I just I I I think we have to, you know, I'm listening to all the the the conversation around anonymity and and things. And I think there's >> there's a we can take questions from anybody like it's it's not, you know, I I don't need to know if John Smith at such and such email address asks a question, he can just ask a question. But if somebody is I also don't want to necessarily give a mechanism for people to just throw hate out there either. So you know we need to figure out that that mechanism for >> for you know just just like when people come to our meetings we like to know who they are. Um because I think it's I think it I think it is important to to have

203>> to have the community be in involved in this and not you know we're we're also probably going to hear about other communities going through this too. And so, you know, we're not going to be the only ones that are talking about sort of the the tough stuff, but I think the more the the clearer that we can be about how our budget currently is being spent, like if we talk about how much is healthare, how much is like the retirement benefits that we absolutely have to pay, how much of it is, >> you know, how much of it is negotiable, like how much do we really >> I mean, like those are the things because people say, "Oh, Well, you've got this huge budget. You can, you know, you have the money. And it's

204like, well, no, we really don't. Like, really, >> you know, here's the breakdown. >> Here's the breakdown. Here's what it is. >> We can do that. >> So, stuff like that, I think, is really helpful. Like, the context for us to be able to say, >> right? >> What are the employees that we have? What are they doing to provide services to the community? >> Another way to look at it, you know, another perspective, >> I think. Um, you know, and also just in line with that, moving on to Item B, just an update on state aid. So they did have their consensus revenue hearing, the state did, I should say. Um, and so they're looking at revenue projections for 27 to be or tax collections at least to be 1.7% to 3.1% more. So

205that does kind of fall in our projections. Um, we use about 2% for uh state aid, the different state aid accounts. uh >> a potential 2% increase over last year. >> Correct. So what what what the >> Yes. What the >> state is saying is what they're projecting is between 1.7 and 3.1%. So 2% is going to fall in line with that if everything holds true. >> So as we do our budgets, that's what we're going to we're going to look at what we got last year for state aid and we're going to do a 2% increase. >> Yeah. I'll um and that's what we've used so far. And so I'm just saying so far everything's tracking good on that. Uh where it's not tracking well is the health insurance. So we budget 8% or

206we budgeted 8% on our projections. Um GIC is looking right now at about 11%. So we'll have to factor that in. Um, and I'm letting you know this because I think what I'll do is I'll do one round of overall budget revisions at the end of January when the governor's budget comes out and where we are with the GIC and we'll lock that in and that'll be our numbers going forward. Um, and I I'm hoping that if if something fluctuates between now and the end of January, I've got some room on the revenue side or somewhere else to kind of make adjustments so we don't have to revisit, you know, the the figures, the override figures and things like that. That would just be a mess. Um, but um but yeah, so we'll do we'll

207do one more kind of round of of revisions on that and then we'll lock it in. And those will be the numbers that we have to stick with going going forward through May. Okay. And yeah, and then the MMA conference is coming up in a couple weeks and I think you know some of you have registered. Um, I was asked to do by the MMA kind of set up these regional well they're doing affinity groups I believe on Friday um where you know different interests and different regions are >> Friday or Thursday. >> I think it was Friday. Um and uh so MMA asked me to do the one for Metro West. So, I would encourage you if you're there to go come and pull you in and get to meet some of your colleagues

208you might not have had a chance to meet. So, want Katherine and Beth in I recruited them, too. So, um but yeah, just uh wanted to uh to let you know that. >> Great. >> That'd be fun. >> Just out of curiosity, who all is planning you're going? I'm going to >> I haven't registered yet, but I'm planning on going. I actually booked a hotel. I just did it personally. So, >> if anyone wants to stay, I can make sure I have a two-bedroom >> because I'm planning on going in Thursday and staying through till Saturday. >> Oh, okay. >> Doing the Friday night and dinner and stuff. >> Okay. >> Been a while. Um, so I'm sorry I missed our dinner. I was sick at the beginning of December. I'm sick now in January,

209so hoping it doesn't continue throughout the year. Uh, coming up on January 15th, we have Metro Regional Collaborative meeting from 8 to 9:30 and then I'll be attending the MMA. Um, not really much else. Haven't been out doing much. as I'm going to a garden club meeting this Saturday and I am trying to set up a time to meet with Rob and Tony regarding the upper Charles Trail and I did have an interesting conversation from someone in Hopkin regarding their trail and they are going through some interesting stuff in Hopkin right now. So if I hear anything more I'll keep you updated. That's it. Thanks, >> Makita. >> Hey everybody. Really quickly, uh was well enough to partake in a lot of the holiday celebrations around town in Ashland last month. Just incredible to see

210the whole town come out for great events like Illuminate Ashland and of course uh uh the Downtown Stroll and uh the cameo appearance by uh Mr. Certain Mr. Claus, etc., etc. That's always a it's it's one of these times a year where I feel like our community really shines. So, it was beautiful to be able to participate in those events and to see all the town folk come out. And uh I have to say that I saw some good Christmas shopping happen with lo local merchants and I did quite a bit of my Christmas shopping uh uh locally as well. So, that tradition will definitely continue. Um I did uh I did attend a historical commission meeting last month. Uh they are in the process of redrawing their map for downtown historical district. Uh there's

211going to be I think a gathering later this month around communications around that um which I intend to attend and I can't remember the date off top of my head. I apologize because I too am not feeling very well. So, um, yeah, and I'll leave it at that. Thanks. >> Thank you. Yes, I, uh, too was able to attend some of our events in downtown and it was they were, you know, uh, the Illuminate Ashlin was, uh, really special and, uh, you know, it's it is really nice to see the community come out like that. We were away on the uh, that previous weekend, but uh, it was very special. Um I also you know was really honored to be able to attend the employee recognition lunchon. Um you know really it was uh it's

212very special to um to see all the employees come together and to recognize them and have the opportunity to say thank you to them. Um, Michael Fabry was uh the honorable Michael Fabry um was the speaker and the guest speaker and you know it was uh he's a very interesting gentleman and it was um great to hear from him. Um and uh there was one other thing that I had I need to write these down but um something else happened recently. No. All right. Well, in any case, fine. So all >> it's jet lag. It's jet lag. >> Jet lag. Yes, jet lag. >> It's >> okay. I guess I'm up. Um so I will be at the sustainability committee tomorrow. I've reached out to all my committee people um ZBA conservation and uh sustainability.

213So everyone is um embracing me with open arms. So actually they're they're really actually very happy that we're we're doing this initiative to be better connected. So So thank you to you guys for for the work that you put into all this. Um I will have more to report at our next meeting. Um I did want to just give a quick shout out. I know it was on our consent agenda um today, but we didn't really talk about it obviously, but um we were able to um release over $4,000 um from our um the select board account that we had created, the gift account, >> to the Ashlin Day committee. um which I think is awesome that we were able to raise enough money to be able to put on Ashland Day and also uh

214kickstart this this upcoming year. Um, I did want to give a huge shout out to Diane Mortonson and Cindy Sinata and and Stephanie Peton who like just came through just like gang busters for us because it was it was a it very compressed time schedule, a lot of moving parts and um it seemed like every time we turned around we had a different crisis. So, um, they were they were fantastic to work with and and just thank you to to them for all their help. So, >> So, is are the two Ashlin Day committees working together to move forward or >> Yeah, we haven't we haven't met yet, but because of the holidays and stuff, it will be >> Well, we'll we'll connect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah. Yeah. Um, we have people that

215are looking forward to to being a part of it and >> the 40th year of Ashland Day up up and going. >> Um, and then the only other thing I just wanted to say, we were talking about Illuminate Ashland and that's that was my first Illuminate Ashland this past year. Um, >> I know Chrissy Reynolds only generally does it every other year, so it's not an every year thing, but that was my first Illuminate Ashland. And I just wanted to um >> she does a you know >> it's amazing. >> It it was amazing. Thank you. I I just want to add I actually started over at um Ann Marie's Chrissy's dance studio and um it was so amazing to just watch the the performers and you know mostly young students and um and they

216were just remarkable. And I found myself I walked out of the room and I was grinning from ear to ear. It was just so engaging and um really special the way it was lit. Everything was really done. >> It was intimate. It was very intimate. It really was very uh very well done. So she's she's really a huge asset to the community. >> And um I think that's it for me. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Um, real quickly, I had the opportunity to sit in this room a couple of weeks ago uh when um the Affordable Housing Trust sat in on the lottery at 487 Main Street. There were four names. Actually, there were four numbers. They don't give names. Everything's done, you know, without without knowledge of who that person is going

217to be. Uh the numbers were picked. There were there were four there were four uh applications that met the criteria. There was 30 of them alto together but they had to eliminate some of them because the criteria was not met properly and so they were filtered out. So after the fil filtering out of all those um there was four that met the criteria and the selection was made and we'll hopefully hear next week as to who the individuals or once they >> get there. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that hopefully it's it's >> for the Habitat for Humanity house that's being built >> and they'll then have to jump in and start helping out. >> Absolutely. Y >> great. >> Which which is which was totally awesome. Uh the other thing was uh Ashland

218does a great job with the holiday uh festivities. Um it it's just incredible to see the faces. Um you know I can tell you that you know when you drive that when you do uh the Santa right around town >> oh my word it I have to tell you the faces of not just the kids. I'm talking parents that are out there. They they love it. They're in their jams. They was cold. I don't know. It was cold. It was cold. >> But oh my goodness, it was it was a hoot and a half. >> And uh so thank you to all the folks that that came out and waved and it was a lot of fun. It was uh >> and there were fire trucks and there were police cars. It was >> they

219were Oh my word. It was I mean and I may have interested full disclosure been one of those parents in their pajamas and possibly >> I didn't want >> but isn't it like >> it's very exciting. I get excited especially when it snows got like around the poles. >> Oh yeah, it was it was it was very festive and it's like >> it was very very festive. >> Yeah. And Jordan did a lot of great work that obviously mastermind. >> Yep. >> Oh, it was it was awesome. Ju just to go downtown. It looked like a Thomas Concaid Christmas cat. >> Yeah. >> You know, it was very very nice. >> Stars all up. stars were all up. Yeah. Yeah. The monora lighting was was phenomenal. Everything everything went well. I I missed the uh

220the appreciation dinner. I I got there late. Uh but it was nice that I went around the tables and thanked everybody for all the the hard work they do year round. And uh should do it more often. Yeah. It was great to have Yeah. Both. >> Joe, the other thing that you and I did, we met with the gentleman um from the Donnelly property. >> Oh, yes. >> Who was turning over the signing the deed over to the town >> and uh we came down and him and thanked him and >> y >> he was a lot of good stuff happened. A lot of people >> it was a busy year but it was a good year. >> It was it was a very s I thought it was a successful year. Very busy year

221like you said and there's still a lot more to get done >> and uh so let's let's do it. >> It's nice though to start seeing the sort of end of some of the projects. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah. >> 126. Oh my goodness. >> Downtown. >> I can't remember. What was it? Three, four years ago. We were all Well, we were a lot younger, too. We're going >> We have a lot more hair. >> Well, yeah, that's remains to be seen. But with that, uh, welcome welcome back everyone. And at this time, I'll be happy to entertain a motion to adjourn. >> So move second. >> All those in favor? I >> I and we'll see you on the 21st. >> Thank you and good night. Drive carefully. It's very icy out there.