Planning Board: February 27th, 2025

001asking them please M okay came into the office yesterday gave a little talk and not talk but a little situation talking about and did you get a ho to the town manager after uh between yesterday and today no I have not okay so and Nour you didn't either okay that's Ste situation what what what pass on the stronger Zoning for the planning board and all that and everything else I wanted to make sure that something least gets talked about on on the roof here on the town hall and then get and then we get back together and just see what happens if it can if it can work together sure Mar Mark do you want to tell the plany about over your idea my ITA it's uh 119 Main Street what are you talking about

002well you had an idea to create a to come together to talk about zoning and who who should be part of that meeting or the group do you want to talk about that to the planing board because I think it's a good idea I would like to come in and have a pre setup talk okay I can't I'm not g I can't do something like that by myself okay all right well let just up update the board Mark did come in yesterday and he kind of floated the idea that he would like to see some of the bylaws kind of strengthened um with the idea that you said there there's too much restaurants is that correct there still bunch of one of one s restaurants and businesses that is not gener generational ready okay maybe

003service businesses you want to see more Economic Development businesses with jobs and um and that was just kind of an overall conversation we kind of had and you know I think at this point I think that's a great process after the comprehensive plan is complete uh in my eyes is Implement is is kind of an implementation strategy but Mark just came in obviously and and talked about it and um and and requested to talk to the town manager and I don't think Mike was available um and Alvaro and I talked to Mark a little bit but it's obviously it's a pretty big idea and it's a big process right and so uh obviously it would be the kind of the the preamble to a process that would that would occur obviously to rec codify our

004bylaws which I think we all kind of know need some some work and and uh and Mark just kind of want to came in and talked about it and tried to spawn uh uh a meeting to try to to to just discuss what could and can't be done at this point in time so it's basally a talk about with with some of the uh some of the Committees that involved in in zon in and not just zoning but overall site plans plan board everybody that's involved together and to look forward to a um future downtown and future business for the reason for the college people that get out the college who are study and have their bachelor's degrees and stuff like that in the services and the Professional Medical and uh professional areas of jobs

005and for the general family that come in that has a professional commercial in um family um DNA inside of them and there's no jobs that around here looking attract to get keep them in town and to understand that they they can live here if they have to go out of town get the tea station either way but to make this make the uh Route 495 console which is which is setal like down Franklin be something like that here all right thanks Mark I mean I I think uh it does seem to tie in to me to the bigger effort that's going on with Comprehensive plan and so it seems like uh those things will you know as the results start coming out a comprehensive plan about what the goals of the town of Ashland are

006the residents of the town in general then it seems like they'll start to we'll start to work on those exact things once we know what those results are from the residents of Ashland so so on that I'll just end it on this will Mr Peter allar give me an email message that I can reply back on and let's go from there sure I'm happy to email you mark like we've been doing other things oh sure okay sorry oh okay I made you a co-host Paul so you can unmute yourself okay sorry about that um okay yeah Mark I'm happy to put an email together and email you no we going to put like a date time come in and get get a preamble going sort of thing I can I can look into the calendar

007and and try to try to figure something out for you go thank you all right thank you uh seeing no other public comment know they're public really um we will move on to the next item on our agenda which is the public hearing for 20 Ponderosa ryen wireless equipment upgrade do you need to read that into the uh yes I am um the plany board will hear a public uh excuse me the planning board will hear the petition of Verizon two uh 20 Alexander Drive uh wallenford Connecticut 06492 requesting a special permit modification per chapter 282 section 6.4 Wireless Communications facilities in 9.3 of the Ashton zoning bylaws the applicant seeks to modify the existing special permit for the removal of three existing antennas and callar mounts installing eight new antennas three excuse me eight

008new antennas three new antennas with uh integr integrated radio heads eight uh eight radio heads and one BP two hybrid cables and one new platform Mount at the 123t center line of the existing 150t Tower there are no proposed changes to the tower height or compound size that would be the fen in area um at the bottom obviously of the pole uh the added equipment is 3G cap excuse me is 5G capable the property in question is located at 20 Pond neosa Road assessor map 13 lot 35 and in the residential a zoning District just for a location uh this is at the Ashland DPW um at the far end of pondosa road if you go past the um ashon fishing game club um and then that's where you run into the ashon DP W

009um there there is a um a large I think it's about 100 by 100 fencing area it's a land lease um that the town has with crown castle and Verizon represented tonight um is a co-tenant of that pole um and they are one of four um carriers that are uh co-tenants on that uh crown castle pole uh so with that said uh if there's no questions from the board I'll turn it over to the applicant who's here to introduce herself good evening members of the board uh and staff and members in the audience my name is Domin Tator I'm permiting specialist with crown castle um submitted this application on behalf of Verizon who is our uh customer carrier um as you know I've submitted a special perent Amendment application um on behalf of Verizon uh

010for 20 Ponder Rosa Road as Peter mentioned um this is 150 foot uh telecommunication monopole located at your DPW facility uh Verizon is an existing carrier at the 123rd Center Line um crown castle owns the tower and U the town of Ashland is the property owner uh telecommunication upgrades um are common and desired as technology changes pretty quickly and it's important to for the carriers to provide better telecommunication services to Residents businesses and also First Responders right now uh C uh bryen currently has three antennas um and bryen proposes to replace all the antennas in the existing Mount and ancillary equipment uh with new Mount and antennas at the exact same Center Line um there's no as Peter mentioned there's no change to the proposed uh tower height or compound size this application constitutes an

011eligible facilities request for the fcc's regulations and does not constitute a substantial change to the Tower and as a birght use by the federal law uh the application materials that were submitted to you included with the application also the construction drawings the uh structureal analysis report and compliant radio frequency emissions uh analysis report so if you have any questions i' be happy to answer them I have just some basic questions as we go through these um frequently but but um okay so on that Tower there are currently uh two other levels of antenna who else is on that Tower Peter you know just curious I can answer the question if you want you m sh okay um at the very top is T-Mobile followed by Sprint which is actually T-Mobile now okay T-Mobile T-Mobile yeah

012and then Verizon okay and the lowest level is dish oh so that's uh so I thought I pardon me while I look at the image I took today I mean I I went by our PDF and our structural analysis so maybe the dish one hasn't been done yet or is proposed but I know the top three ones are there the T-Mobile and the Verizon yeah I think dish is proposed yeah dish has not been dishes not come in front of this but when they do come or want to come they will be obviously at the lower level so right now there are three levels right there's they kind of start going down in size are are the three to be removed that low level is that's what is that what is being removed so the

013lowest level which is the uh 123rd Center Line was Verizon that is slated for like basically an overhaul replacement because what is there now is deficient the platform Mount is extremely tiny the antennas are Antiquated right that's I'm just wondering what like I said what I'm looking at there's an upper level there's a middle layer and there's really this tiny little small layer the tiny little small layer is the one that you're talking about yes it's so deficient for technology today so that is what's slated for replacement it it's long overdue to be honest Madam chair okay all right and it would go into the it would go back into that same loc that same slot yes okay the same location exact same central line so when it's taking out oh it's printed so small

014for my eyes um remove those three antennas with the collar and they're installing three dual antenna mounts install three antennas with integrated rrh and install another eight antennas can you tell me the difference between an antenna with an integrated rrh absolutely and an eight and the other one absolutely yes so the platform amount that they're putting on is basically a square amount okay so what they're installing is like eight eight antennas um and then you have down there you have installed eight rrhs those are remote radio heads those eight are going to go behind the eight proposed antennas just think of it like little suitcases and then on top of that they're also going to install three antennas that have like almost like a Duo um antenna with radio so it's kind of like a

015it comes like a Duo two for one um as antenna so basically it's like 11 antennas coming on three have radios already in their basic design and um eight of them are going to have radio behind them okay yeah and when the testing was done there's a letter describing like certain percentages oh here um this is from the Fox Hill Telecom yes and um it talks about a site total of 9.76% this is about the um the the emissions that's right correct is the 9.76 mean that it is if we look at the fcc's allowable limits the proposed total is 9.7 six yes I can tell you exactly everything about it if you want to um that was kind of is my only question I wanted to understand the percentage is related to the allowable

016limit so no is there a limit on the tower like like how much come out of the 100% is a fail and 99 99.99 infinity infinity is a pass so this is 10 times below um the um FCC allowable limits and that would be for the is that for the Tower as a whole yeah it's for literally all the carriers all the radios on the tower and it assumes the model that was used was assuming the worst pessimistic um situation a model that was run basically where all of the radios for all the carriers on that Tower are transmitting non-stop 247 which it doesn't do in real life so it it's a model of the worst situation possible and even the worst worst situation possible was 10 times under the limit so it has um

017so when it has sector a sector B sector C sector D are those I'm just trying to understand from based on what you said so that your so the the percentage of what we're looking at for her for Verizon on this one is 9.76% right um for I'm just looking at the the summary on the back page of the so how I understand it and I believe the 9.76 is for all the carriers for the entire Tower oh yeah it says the estimated composite emissions value for this site assuming all carriers present is 9.76% of the allowable established guidelines yes and and Madam chair if you unfortunately the document is doesn't have page numbers on it unfortunately but you're right yeah just really not helpful but right before the heat Maps the page right prior

018to the heat Maps it actually shows um a table that says site composite MP percentage and actually lists out the carrier like Verizon 7.49 and then they added up the T-Mobile one as well I see yep okay so is green Verizon at the top in this um diagram um that I can't answer actually no correction that is the Verizon with okay so GRE Verizon yes okay so it seems like Verizon is 9.76 right and other ones would be other uh no Madam chair the uh Verizon itself is 7.49 and you when you add the team mobile ones as well 2.79 it comes up to the percentage of 9.76 oh so and the T-Mobile includes both of theirs both those tiers yes okay got it okay and the other one is not on there yet that's

019correct got it okay okay just for clarification is the second T-Mobile kind of shut shut off you think you don't know you know unless I get uh which I might might have have soon I don't know an application for T-Mobile we'll find out what they're doing go whether they choose to use that center line or not I don't know yet okay yeah just CU just I know me too I I don't know okay okay sorry those I'm just trying to understand these technical things a little bit better um are there any other questions from the board so this is a location obvious this is a location obviously in the past we've had uh questions about um uh access about uh work trucks coming in and maybe blocking access to residences we've had um you know

020questions about hours of construction but this is all happening at the Ashen DPW um yeah so typically any anybody any work in this area obviously is going to be coordinated with Ash and DPW and within any condition obviously coordination would have to concur absolutely concur with the DPW and is there anything also being changed out at the ground level no no just it's all on the tower principally other than like you know a fiber cable right right no new boxes being constructed okay yeah um I was just going to say I think because particularly for that platform they're going to need like a big crane I'm assuming and that's going to take L iect that they probably will so it'll be like a coordination Town it be a lot of coordination for that then the

021only thing I I would say just want I appreciate that um the application the crown castle went through our entire bylaw in Comm and I just appreciate that level of effort and I can't say that people read this but they do get published and and it gives background like when we can't really deny if people ask it sort of it just it spells it out so thank you and and any other applications I have with your town that's my intent to keep up doing the same thing I did with this application quick clarification question um this ton report has more quantities of proposed equipment antenas versus the 11 is there a trick to read this chart um I'm I'm saying proposed equipment configuration though yeah that's what is proposed for um this application so but

022that's more than 11 antas on this table um they also have the T-Mobile ones as well that I don't know if that's how he designated on here but because it's saying proposed equipment configuration so T-Mobile should not be part of it right no probably it's just like um how they worded it is what I believe just a confusion with the wording but you'll have better Verizon coverage in town once we get rid of that because all the Samsung ones sounds like it is Verizon so that count itself does not add up correctly because the there is a schedule on this drawing set which shows Samsung products uh the new proposed equipment is a combination of Samsung and com scope scope yeah so that's like com scope is on this chart is eight of them and

023Samsung is adding up to 15 unless the Samsung is the radio as well cuz that would D um changed the number as well yep Sam Samsung is the radio heads as well okay so that's where the numbers come up so most of the equipment on the on the um proposed Mount are going to be Samsung with the exception of some com scope serting the things listed as Samsung telecommunications are actually the radio heads so I believe that um how it was listed includes the radio heads and also the antennas is that are Samsung so okay so the and they're all just when it says number of antennas they're just it's just there's actually more various types of equipment there exactly and what's listed on the drawing set is what's it's makes it more def makes

024it more descriptive I guess exactly right and so that's at one 123 ft proposed and then when it says other considered equipment those are at 146 40 147 and 148 ft which would be the upper levels of the tower I yes and so that would be the T-Mobile levels and then there's yeah and then there's some things at 36 35 36 which would be maybe that mid level yeah a higher level in a mid level okay and we did have a question about about um you might have heard K and I Ching about a little bit that the um that the uh study the telmon study was done in August 2024 and it was using the ninth edition of the building code and we're in a concurrence period of The Bu building code right now

025so is this do you know if they have looked at this with the 10th edition of the building code or if there's any I believe that they have it's just that normally the structural analysis reports are usually done a substantial amount of time in advance they have to because if the scope has to change or the equipment has to change it all has to make sure that you know passes structurally so that's why these um reports are always done six to nine months sometimes a year in advance um but I'm aware that the 10th edition came out in October okay yeah and um Peter is this something that um TR I remember the other ones we've done um is there anything in here where our third party so no because this is a privately owned

026pole uh it's owned by crown castle versus US owning the tank correct so when we own the tank such as a water tower it goes through peer review through the water department for rest structural for structural analysis for this Tower privately owned by crown castle um the town has um I don't want to say no interest however it's not Town property so therefore there's no peer review from a structural standpoint this would just go to the building okay there any uh questions otherwise we can open it up to public comment okay um I'm just going to open it up for public comment as it is a public hearing oh do you want me to sit down you need to take a seat okay that's okay I thought you needed me close by in case I

027needed to answer anything you might you might need to answer things my name is Diane calt and I live at 66 Sudbury Road which is the towers is right behind it's in my backyard um and talking today it's like just 750 ft so my concern has always been with that tower being there is health concerns just because of the admissions now I know I heard you say tonight that it's in total it's what 9.76 which is 10 times under what the FCC limits are um but I still have that concern you know there's still our emissions constantly being coming from this this cell tower and I mean I just hear that I know this is supposed to allow the 5G capability um but I just understand just from you know with this going from 4G

028to 5G that with all of this radiation that's being emitted the verdict still isn't out yet on on any kind of health hazards um so just being so near the tower and you know there are other homes on the street as well um it concerns me thank you yeah we've um these issues um obviously come up every time um we have um one of these uh proposals or these changes of equipment these special permit modifications so the concerns always come up there's things in the news that travel through you know once in a while um and there are obviously um some people that are really you know trying to delve into this and trying to to figure out what the risks are um for the um for the purposes of the planning board we are

029under um um reg National a federal regulations that we really can't um there's no re we really can't reject the permit for for issues of perceived concerns without there being um it's just not in our purview to do that so um as long as everything meets our bylaws and meets the required standards then the the Board needs to approve so that's the that's the place that we're at um people can probably explain it better than I can but yeah it comes down to what was mentioned today uh I believe it is um 2012 the SEC regulations um came out and it's a they pretty much as as nationally they got said if you're eligible um uh eligible facility and you meet the six criterias laid out within that 2012 Bill and law that was passed

030um I think it was the jobs act I believe believe the middle class jobs act uh President Obama signed in 2012 laid out that eligible facilities that are were existing um if they met six criteria points uh which this one does um I don't have those six criteria off the top of my head but maybe the applicant does um that the planning boards Andor local boards do not have the authority to deny um upgrades of existing towers and so that is the regulations that this application falls under up this is what the the law that I was speaking to today on the phone with you about um however uh here in Ashland when upgrades are applied for the biggest thing I think that this board tries to do is to make sure there's a public

031hearing and with there's notification um to allow everyone within uh proximity of the tower within 300 feet which is the notification regulations that we fall under under chapter 48 are notified of the work being done uh and therefore people know what is going on within their local area um and so I think that is the the tack that the the planning board has taken over the last few years when the update to cell tow come in um regarding new equipment so um that's kind of my summary of I also just in acknowledging that the the that the board has um um has listened to people with concerns when whenever one of the one of these projects come comes up but I want to say that the the board has made no determination about whether it

032is at risk or not and this actually has gone to the um the Board of Health as well and I think also they have not determined that there that there is a risk based on the based on the um based on the the information out there at this time can I just clarify because we we have also I just to be clear have not that isn't under our purview so we are not saying it's not a risk and we aren't saying it is a risk but I I just I just the way it was worded it could be I was just saying we had made no determination so um about that because it isn't in our purview um to do so we're not scientists in that way so um but um what's that oh it

033it's still open if you want to make a comment thank you again m Sony 119 Main Street um I can because of the health reasons but I also know that for the technical reasons for the tower itself because there's more customers coming on that use the devices so they need a stronger radio frequency to coincide with what is out there so I'm I'm basically either way on it healthwise I'm not but this this is for the future Road and from 4G 5G and the tower itself of down Ponderosa is a a essential frequency carrier down there and the two um the two tows plus the middle one and they're going to have a Verizon and um T-Mobile but Samsung is basically if I if I can guess it right and correctly if I'm wrong either

034either anybody be behind me or not but Samsung is the radio frequency material material that they is used on the towers themselves yes or no can you I don't know if we have that Samsung the one that carries a regular frequency and to Verizon and T-Mobile they send it out to their devices but the Samsung major radio carrier no the antennas that's mounted are from the manufacturer from Samsung they the manufacturers of those products that's M yes so I was in the ball park but I was not here in home run okay um we yes we have had this and the one on C the street the same thing going through stuff like this healthwise I can agree that it's it's a it's is a risk but the Board of Health deems not to but

035then again the Board of Health needs to hear it more the have this been going on we you can't say no basically you can't say no because FCC regulations has your hands TI because if you try it could be a court case and this town doesn't want to go through that but it's cost money and it's a um real hassle so yes I agree with what they want for but healthwise is is a background negative thank you thank you marike all right so the next step in this would be to for us to close the public hearing if there are no further questions we would vote to close the public hearing and then we would um I guess ask um Peter to start to put together a yeah so uh just looking at the next

036meetings date uh for the for the pl board is March 13th uh I can pretty confident that I can to draft a decision to the board fairly quickly um and then we could uh make a file determination so I think either Contin you know closing the public hearing and continuing it out to March 13th is probably our next yeah I'll make a motion to close the public hearing for a Verizon Wireless 20 on Roa cell to radio alteration is there a second second and a roll call vote Katherine Jersy I Amanda ha and Trisha Kendall I so uh we have closed the public hearing and we will move we will we'll review the decision um on the 13th of March can you come up to the microphone please thank you he you madam chair so

037that means that the decision will be reviewed and signed at the on the 13th correct and then filed with the town the day after starting the 20-day appeal period and all of that okay thank you I appreciate it and I assume that we are within our scope of time yes we are within our scope of time and I think um um obviously we we will be within the required phase okay great thank you thank you thank you um moving on next to our on our agenda is an informal meeting with the owners and agents of 123 Pawn Street um and we had talked to we had talked to the applicants a few oh a few a few a month ago maybe a month or two ago I'm just going to go to excuse me uh

038I know Mike McKay is here online but I do see the applicant in the hall okay so excuse me yeah okay so um Peter you just want to give a update about where we are on this project uh sure um Mike McKay has his hand up Mike I'm gonna ask you to unmute um and so my main direct communication has been through Mike McKay uh here and he is the uh project applicant excuse me the project architect um here tonight we have uh George Connor's engineer Bruce wheeler who is the owner of the project thank you so much Bruce I know um Bruce Mike and George have been working hard on this project but a month ago they did came come into the Plenty board meeting maybe a little bit about a month and a

039half ago in December okay prior to Christmas and we had a preliminary kind of discussion about the project I know um work has been done on the project I know they took a lot of the comments back um and they've kind of came up with a new uh and improved um plan for that for that matter um and I can pass that along um um I did circulate I would just know like to say uh Mike George and Bruce are here just to kind of open up a preliminary continue that preliminary discussion with the plainy board about a future development at 37 uh James um with that said I'm happy to hand it over to Mike uh Mike you are unmuted um and I do have the PDF if you would like me to share

040my screen I'm happy to as well and or you are allowed to share the screen um if you want to um I'll do it I'll do it Peter thank you it might be easier for me to control it uh okay thanks Peter and uh members of the board uh Michael McKay I'm actually um on vacation um so don't feel bad for me but uh I'm uh I have my family running around outside and I'm I'm sitting in one of the bedrooms so um but I'll just share the screen okay um I as as Peter mentioned um we were in you know six weeks or so ago maybe a little bit more and it was a lot of feedback about the project um from a sighting situation um from a um parking um and what we

041did is we we looked at a lot of things that that the the major item that we tried to address was the amount of parking on site so from a scope standpoint we are actually still very similar we're in the 200 residential unit range 1700 17,000 square ft of commercial um and 325 parking spaces and a mix of 101 bedrooms and 102 bedrooms that so the scope has not changed U much um just the design so from a um we we took some ideas from all the board it was it was actually a great meeting we thought and some good feedback about the type of designs the the site and so I'll just get into it a little bit I'm I'll just go through the context quickly this is uh you know a couple of

042context images but the site in blue wraps all the way around James and as a small pie well it's not a small piece a significant piece on Pond um but it wraps around the gas station and U two residences but uh so this is context a few photographs uh bird's eye of the of the site um looking uh both ways up Pawn Street and again I'll just go through this fast this is the existing condition site plan it's um we're you know substantial site this was the original plan that we submitted and I think one of the comments you know the general feedback was there was a lot of uh um a lot of parking a lot of gray um on the site and not necessarily inviting um I will say that we you know

043we took this there's a lot of um conservation issues there's some easements there so the sighting of the buildings is not that easy but but you know when George first looked at this site even before we got involved one of the major um ideas was to get it away from the existing house uh get the M the big larger buildings away from the house and we put screening and parking along here but also as far away from the gas station as possible so that was from a sighting standpoint um so we actually didn't change the buildings a lot we tweak them a little bit but they're generally in the same location um not necessarily the same footprint um so this was the existing the proposed really cuts down on a lot of the parking we

044actually put parking in both Building B and Building C at the ground level so that took you know approximately 125 parking spaces and put them inside um what this is a blowup of the entire sites we have building a on Pond Building B Building C and then there's a building D which everybody liked I think it was the favorite building because it was kind of a cute one and a half story building um but this is a blowup version of the site building a still has commercial 13,000 square feet of commercial what we've done is taking some Clues from other projects that are that are going on in town with you know just softening up the edge more Landscaping have walkways that will bring um bring people walking along Pawn Street into the site um

045and this particular idea there's a little walkway that would wrap around the building WP around building a get into this uh kind of triangular site by getting a lot of the parking off the site we have more amenities we have a playground that would be a public playground um in the middle of this you know Courtyard of between the the three buildings um the um building a would have a u you know potential this is what the hope is to have a cafe but no matter what it would be some type of a um a landscaped open um sitting area in front of um in front of building a um that again will help draw people into the site um Building B I always had this idea during the meeting was to introduce some I

046call them duplexes um or and call them a townhouse for whatever it's worth but to soften up the edge of Building B we would have a entrances each each of these four units it's not significant a significant number of unit but it's more just to to break up the massing of the a large building but have twostory units that would uh have their own yard have their own little landscaped area out front and you know create this little formal um formal landscaped area um that would then open up more to the amenity space this is a building amenity space space um with a gym um grills fire pits so this whole area would be developed as a again it's more of a softened area that uh than we had before um still Building B is

047uh Building B has is all residential uh but the ground floor is parking we would have Lobby um along the side so we'd be entering into the building and exiting um and exiting here ha and wrapping around the back to leave Building C again ground level parking but all this white would be uh ground level amenity space Lobby mail room bike storage um but that building again it's softened by this ground floor Break um we did explore putting some type of walkway going along the back and we it's it's not the the best it sounds great when we talked about Wetland maybe there's a there's a potential to do something nice and but it it's just not the best um space back here and it's still something that we'll explore further but it's we did

048we did look into it a little bit but it's just not it's not the best that's all that's all I can say I did forget about our little Sport Court area this would be for residence in the back and it's tucked away as far as we can away from the buildings and and and our neighbors um that U so the sports courts would be in this uh this back corner but again the the amenity that we be adding is this significant playground um in the courtyard building D hasn't changed at all there's a couple of notes that we put down we have met with one of our neighbors and uh we're planning on meeting with the um with the other neighbor that lives here um but we've a couple of suggestions on things that we

049may introduce to uh slow down traffic maybe uh um you know speed deterrent um uh bumps or U signage that would um stop everybody from going so taking a turn onto James Road if you're leaving so signage and um curbing that would uh direct everybody towards the main uh the main entrance so that those are just some notes that we're putting more as reminders to us as we develop the plan so let's see sorry about that this was the original concept for building a um had this manside roof U it is a four-story building um commercial on the first floor and which you'll see in all of the buildings is we we're introducing more of a more of an industrial Mill feel to it just a consistent there'll be some brick um gray colors um

050still having the heavy commercial Frontage but this building has a recess U so the a tower on either side and then a recess um to to break up the mass thing we're introducing balconies sporadically not every unit will have a balcony but we're um we're planning especially in the back of the building we may have um a few more balconies um but that's something is an idea I know there's feedback both ways about you know having having balconies having people hang there laundry but uh it's still an amenity that uh might be a a good thing to have as a um not as a general use but um several of the units uh that's building a uh the change I'm sorry I'm having a little freeze Building B this was the original design um it

051was a five-story building it was actually four and a half stories but it was flat roof with the half story um sort of Ste back um from both elevations um our New Concept is introducing a fairly significant um sloped roof and having the fifth floor built into the roof line with shed Dormers um and even bringing that roof flying down to the um the corner down to the fourth floor so that it is a again this is that that building with the tow houses um that were talked about just breaking up that would be sticking out approximately 15 20 feet um and this is the garage entrance here so there's a there's a large l and a large angle to this building that's not showing up we don't have renderings of this yet we wanted

052to get feedback tonight before we do that but you'll see the consistency in the the design even even though they're different buildings um color the brick um the base would be um similar this was Building C again it was all mixture of Hardy siding and you know clap wood and Bay but it was um just maybe a little bit hotter not as not as soft and this is our version for building C which again is similar to B but different um if that you know just not not the same this has a significant tower that would um be flanked by the shed Dormers up on the top floor and the amenity space again for uh at the ground level for building C and the last but not least is a little cute we haven't touched

053it um we we we you know it's it's kind of off on its own and this would be a you know a twostory commercial building um that's uh sort of sitting off by itself um so that's I I I'm don't not sure if George wants to add anything I'm sure Bruce would like to say a few few words but for just from a redesign I think the major Focus was to get rid of some of the parking put it in the buildings and introduce more site amenity space both for residents and for um for the town that would be open to the public and to bring people in so that's it thank you just give us a minute while we digest a little bit here I I could start with one question so um the

054building a is much much more industrial than the others and I mean I well I'll just say personally I think that's dramatic change and Improvement um of of the design I like the other ones don't look inspiring it looks like you see what you came with originally so I feel like this is just something different that's going to be attractive to in but um the other ones just seem a little nicer I guess because maybe just not so harsh so is there something that you chose to have a not have any any um the others I'm sorry so so it just looks like a very very industrial and I know we the planning board threw out an idea that that might fit there and be better but I feel like some of the other features

055just make it more interesting on the BNC building I think the I think the um I I said the same thing I kept trying to figure out am I looking at the front of this building or the back of this building I think it's the only one we're looking at the street side instead of the back instead of the courtyard side right that's right and I think the um I think that it's partly it's just it's it's the only one that's symmetrical it's a very symmetrical building so it's a very um a little bit more static building than the other two a little bit less Dynamic than the other two and given the how Dynamic that road is and continues to be maybe it needs a little it it's seems a little um a little

056bit too balanced I guess you know static that that building relative to the other ones I and and I wonder um again I agree with Kate my first impression was the other buildings look a little more interesting because of the different kinds of roofs um and there a little more articulations in the other building um but I also I'm thinking when I step back and look at it from the site plan point of view you are going to see the other two buildings kind of partially Inc as kind of a background to this building and I wonder how what that really looks like uh if there is like a street view that we should kind of look at when see you you're going to see a little bit of the building a b and c

057and kind of together on the pawn street right and wonder if that's going to add a little more drama to the whole experience versus just looking at it individually um and I don't know if we would think otherwise when we look at it together yeah I mean I appreciate um I don't give you guys time to take in our words and to respond as well but um I mean I do appreciate with the materials that I assume were which was not only 501 Pawn Street but 10 to 60 Maine which we talked about yes I believe so what was sent to uh the app I excuse me to um the architect and Bruce and George was 501 Pawn Street right and I think the biggest one of the the takeaways of that project was was

058the werf in the front and how do you connect the street to the development um and then I do believe the uh the handdrawn drawing of of tenness 60 Main Street um which was sent over that was during the plany board process um of that project those are the two big uh pieces that I believe were circulated to the to the team yeah and I just want to say that that I would I would have been very surprised if those weren't in the hands of the architect because the things we loved about that little drawing you know um before it sadly went away um I I think you have been able to pick up and start running with you know this idea about this I mean for us it was about the mill building history

059in Ashland and um a different kind of a modern building that but one that had some kind of root in the past you know something with a little bit more character that we were trying to develop and I see some of those things coming through with the the horizontality and the the tower element um on the one building um so I I really I appreciate that kind of careful looking at the things we said we liked you know um and for those not to be disregarded it's interesting looking at the front again of that building a where you have the more of that um um Green Space public space that little bit of buffer from pwn Street and the the park for lack of a better term that you've created out there is very asymmetrical

060and I wonder if that gives that gives a little incentive maybe that the building should also relate to the green space that you have out in front so if the Green Space isn't symmetrical maybe the building doesn't have to be either and you know so how does that building become again a little bit more Dynamic how does it relate to its its landscape I think it's just a little bit too rigid kind of right now um for me my me personally I I really appreciate all the um effort put into the um put into that Central landscape and really starting to think about how it might be used I know the first time was just a first pass at things but it really um it it really it gives an idea that different activities are

061happening here you know that people aren't just walking in a circle and um and the taking some of that taking the parking and putting it in other places allowed that space to grow in size um which makes it uh even better a better you know place to be is the parking count still the same as it was it seems like yes okay it is other things we talked about at the time where um giving that we have hundreds literally hundreds of rental units that are going to be coming online that that a question was we talked about condos potentially about having this be something different and having be condos in these units instead of instead of rentals I don't know um if that uh if that discussion happened or if it was there's still that

062if if there's an argument to be made for that if there's if there's any advantage to doing that go the microphone hi uh Bruce wheeler I'm uh the principal of pendulum um and uh we're we are taking a look at the the possibility of condos as as opposed to rentals we're doing a study on that now and uh uh as we get into it we'll be happy to share our thoughts okay yeah I just wanted to keep following that idea along as long and as well is the um you know that we're always looking for the affordability component of affordability versus commercial space versus you know like I said versus the as you know we have many many rentals that are going to be coming up and that actually needs other stuff too and so

063um always looking for how those can be maximized I know there's a bottom line with things financially but how can this project be different into what it's giving back to the town when some of those we have no control over it's just all residences and it's all rental units there's nothing we can do do about it so um appreciate just keeping that in mind um and comments I wanted to I appreciate the uh public space um and that you are intended public like there's not um it's not too far from other residents and in fact in the comprehensive plan came up to try to have some kind of amenity space within we wanted half a mile and we knew it wasn't so this is there potentially there but I think that's sort of the community

064thing as well um I really appreciate that you kept that and and enlarged it actually yeah I really like um tucking away the parking it's a great note from um our last chat um as Kate noted I think the the public space playground I can't think of another playground between of our Public School Sherborn um that on that side of town um it's sort of foreign Elementary and then probably all the way I think that's yeah no 100% I would actually you know I I I do not know of another public playground in that that neck of the woods I do not think um uh Workman Circle has a playground in it maybe they do but know they that that is something that's there I know it's something we're looking at with um other Investments

065that are being made in town open space on the the pwn Street side of town yeah as you know um fish out of these days my consu at home that will be you know about half the distance to where we're usually shlepping to Cemetery Lane in Sherborn so um I I think that's a great note um and and just a way to sort of um really have that be a vibrant feel with the commercial space and have those in that Courtyard area so um I really I think that's lovely sort of I agree with the note on get a view of how it will look when you're driving down pond because I I I'm I I literally had the two buildings like B and see I really I love this little not on bottom here

066but sort of like trying seeing how it how it would look I think it would be really nice to be that that everything stack up yeah and I think that that's always something that um that gets asked for um especially when this goes for design Review Committee eventually is for those views from the street so I know they're hard to kind of put in um sometimes at this early stage but as you start working toward them to kind of get the things set up in the computer model that uh that those things are easy to do when when you get there like doing the groundwork now will make it easier then because it will it will come back um this is is is that the path we had talked about um like just making it

067easier for pedestrian and bikes and I assume that's what that that path is right that kind of gray path yeah that that would be a especially for pedestrian bikes trying to keep them out of the busiest obviously they're going to have to cross some parking but try to keep them out of the busiest um parts of that making Crossing easy it seems to me that it's fairly effective in doing that um so I appreciate that as well is that an area for out out outside seating in the front that's what that that's what the intent is to have outside seating or it will be a developed uh you know open space okay parking was cut back a little bit maybe maybe seting for a rest potential restaurant indoor pocket park in the front that's correct

068okay I have a couple of I have a couple of we complaints that no one can hear uh I think um uh it would be great if we could uh work in both a restaurant and uh and a cafe into the space that would add a lot of life and vibrancy and uh some outside seating um uh between the the front of building a and in Pawn Street will add energy and and attract people um and and also uh Mike did a great job of having uh parking uh very close to the playground so that it can be easily accessed by um residents and uh uh of the community and and the town as well to zip in and use the playground and um and and have it available to everyone um just a small

069design when I wear my design hat is when you kind of get to the next level of kind of composing all the three buildings in one elevation my suggestion would be uh one is to find a way to connect this building a and the playground in some way visually because it feels like um it's until you know the area people will not know there's a playground that's like public so connecting that would help and I think visually when you look at it it will look less dense even though each building has less than 100 units it feels like 200 is a lot um I think visually when you get to the next level it may be helpful to see how you can connect the playground a little bit to the front and if there is

070like a transparency of some way that you can create through um the other one is if it's great that you looking at like a restaurant and an outdoor seating but from service point of view that's tucked in such a corner from getting trucks in and out getting service deliveries you may land up losing lot of the parking spots so you may want to think about it as you're kind of looking at it next if you really think that it's a great spot that it's like tucked in you have seating but again from your practical point of view and as you develop Your Design I think uh paying attention to how it serviced will be important for that to be really successful so um I mean you it's you're still way um this one I think

071you need to think about it as you're developing this drawing so that you don't lose parking spots for what it is intended right now those are very helpful comments thank you um also that so the James Road you're planning it's almost like a semi emergency not regular use that's awesome for those people it's it's access for the building D yep uh primarily and uh and then emergency access for the rest of the community uh we're going to have speed bumps and uh curb uh uh the curb radi and signage to pull everybody away from uh using uh James Road other than emergency access for those residents probably app that yes if if if I may I had a just a couple of um comments um we do we have a rendering from the street of

072the original design and we did that rendering to show U how far back Building C was so it's it's something we're prepared to present as we develop we understand showing this you know showing the whole picture instead of static elevations um we we have we're we're ready to do that we were we were actually going to do it for today but we thought we' just get get some feedback um you know now I'll talk I always say architectural gobbly because sometimes we uh talk but the the idea of building a being so formal was it was the first building in the mill development right they had this they were very formal Mill building with the symmetrical entrance and that's where we that's where we started and then the back buildings they got all kinds of

073money and they went crazy and built these outrageous um you know ornate buildings in the back and and and that's uh that's how the you know Mill buildings have organically developed over the years that was kind of the thought process if you look in this plan in the building a the back the upper left corner we have a turret and that turret was that was actually the the back was going to you know I thought is that that is a much more orate elevation the front is formal symmetrical at the back espe it's that entrance Tower elevator stair for the residents would be you know much more um playful and that was the thought so and that kind of ties in with the rest of the courtyard so that was the thought we could easily

074look at the front in a different way it was more of you know it's a retail ground floor Strong building and then it got more playful as we got into the back uh but we're you know certainly taking another look at that um but that's what we were thinking you know we sit around our office bangging our heads against the wall yeah I I actually I actually very much appreciate that you do have a story you know that um you know to tell about wish we we use those terms last time like what is the story behind it so I just think the story needs some tweaking because I don't think I'm still not gonna yeah you know I like the story but I'm not sure I like the the product of that that first

075building so obviously I don't have the AR Tech speak but we but we all kind of said so but I think the story of that is the playfulness of the site like even though you're not overly thrilled with the Wetland it is still like you have that Commercial Street which is kind of busy and you have the commercial building cross but you still like that is kind of a special place and you recognize it by recognizing James with those residents and I think that's the part that that can it's kind of the story there but maybe a tying a in with that and just a techn um just a factual question is is the um the easement is this is that under the street I was wondering where the easement is the easement here oh

076right there okay yeah okay okay I was kind of saying that on the site plan but it was hard at that scale I say yep so that also puts the buildings kind of where they are located to avoid the easement okay correct yes what is the ement for okay Circle it's a utility eement I'm sorry I didn't know the answer it's I I know it is a Workman Circle Gan way um Captain e Circle to a gun way Perman is ledge Meir 3 ledge Meir condominium 3 so my I guess you know my final comments would be well for one thing really appreciate the effort that You' put in we I I feel like the discussion um that you really listened to what we were saying and went and took that feedback um looked at

077the images that were sent and really tried to make something with it so we very much appreciate that effort um I would say my the big questions I have right now are about the you know the the Condominiums um versus Apartments number of Apartments I mean OB you know I'm I'm just G I'm just going to like say it that there's a lot of Apartments going in and we're always looking for 25% affordable someone's going to say it we need to say it um even though we have 40 BS coming in we always have to be we're always keeping an eye out for that 25% and um and the other thing is the commercial space I don't know if you had a chance to talk to Beth Reynolds about different kinds of commercial space um

078if you haven't already I would definitely again have that conversation with her she's she knows Ashlin she can start um you know bringing some ideas to the table as well um and then the final thing for me is to and I'm sure it's already embedded in your thoughts on on the site um but issues of sustainability like how do we um it it'll come up we have a best practices list that probably gets out of date every six months versus you know as things change but that's also something that we should make sure that they they have it's not it's not a bylaw it's things that we just like to see for the for the direction Ashland is going I mean I know I when I moved here 20 years ago some of the things

079that stood out to me was that they had just started a that was I don't know what it was the farmers market I think was at least in planning at that time I think and um and that there was a Green Building committee like that had just started up so it was still there the town a lot smaller than is today but there were good things happening and um I think those things have only grown and increased and continue to be appreciated in town so we're always looking for um yeah I'm happy I'm happy to share the list you know and I'm I'm sure there stuff embedded in them that they have intentions but we the more information we can get you about what we're looking for in advance that the easier it is to

080the story easier to tell that's right right so there any other comments from the board too right do you have any other questions for us at this time no other questions we'll um uh we'll think through uh all of those last suggestions and um uh revise uh building a and uh and prepare uh Street uh perspective to share um and uh and love to come back and share those those items with you um very soon I think this is a great process that we have going so yeah that would be that would be great yeah I just want to read it because I think it's super helpful to us and and I think it's proven as well and then it's it sort of keeps things going without being under a deadline and you have to

081wait and right all of that so it's thank you I I think this the scoping sessions are are uh incredibly efficient for us to um uh work through things uh uh in you in this in this form so we we appreciate it as well right great thanks thank you very much everyone good see okay sounds good what up bumping the microphone yeah okay I'll say I'm getting back together here again but they did okay the state is updating the Charles River Watershed it's update to the up there's new maps for the Charles River all right which is next on our agenda item six discussion of update to flood plane overlay District okay so I don't know if you guys had a chance to plow through the uh the flood plane actually before we kind of

082well in in keeping with this why don't we look at our schedule um and for these bylaws and thank you Alo for putting this together um it's in the uh kind of right after after accessory dwelling units um in the front of the [Music] agenda so um so we have the two bws which is the flood plane and the Adu and elro put together this uh timeline here um and I think it's this allows for a little bit of wiggle room in it it seems like but um it really has our discussions um so that that the last discussion for us would be our next meeting March 13th and then what is the submit to assistant Town planner Town Town manager Town Council final review what does that entail that's kind of like the same

083process that we did with the NBTA before it goes to the warrant if there's any comment that um either the assistant Town manager or Town Council has they can review the bylaw that we're providing they give us any sort of comments and then we can make those edits before he actually goes to the warrant um yeah yeah so I I guess the pro the best process will be that after our meeting on March 13 if we were able to have all the comments for us we will have between the 13th to the 17 to like put everything together from the comments from the board and then pass it down to Town Council and um this town manager but like you said Trisha like we can also like move those kind of like times around maybe

084after this discussion we can send it to Town Council they can take a look at it if they have any revisions they can send it back to us and they so we have that okay yeah okay so I just wanted to keep that calendar in mind um and also at the planning board public hearings I know we like to have two or we required to have two public hearings no no okay we we just map out two right just there's insurance policy right but we we are um it's not required to have two you know I think if we we want to say hey let's move the the the advertisement date back a little bit you know and have another scoping session at the on the front end instead of having two public hearings we

085could do that right so because once the once they go to the newspaper there's no changes correct so we could have a scoping session before put it in the paper and have one public hearing you know and have them on each side because then you can actually incorporate changes that you hear from the public versus afterward you can't so is a forum is there oh you could do a forum but not the hearing because I don't think there's time to change it once you once it goes to the warrant we can probably a typo but we can't change it so I think the idea would be taking this public hearing and sco to from Front End right right great yeah as as an option you know like I said you these aren't the kind of

086controversial uh warrant articles but it's it's still something for that same reason we might and not need two public hearings on the back end for these for these things so it's I mean I'd be a fan of that as a practice because it always feels like people do have and we can't change it the only thing is pull it right but this is being proactive and do I think we're going to get a room full no either but it's it's setting a precedent of a process where the public can have an impact versus when they can't I agree and I think um the ads might surprise any any of these sort of state regulations that are coming at youed so would we make maybe um think about taking taking one of the public hearings off

087and opening up a spot um which would be like the yeah the 13th what between the 13th and the 21st so it would be the 21st that would be a public forum potentially because the March 17th isn't a meeting right uh I gu would be the 20th it would be March 20th Yeah March 20th would that would be the that would be the possible Forum ahead of time Forum before and hearing after which oh no it would be it would be yeah Mar so so the pl board's going to meet on the on in March the pl board meets on the 13th and the 27th the 27th oh okay okay oh right okay 27th yeah and obviously the comp plan typically meets on on the Thursday that Wednesday that that Thursday the 20th um I

088think if we're doing a forum like a oneoff I know for the forums the NBTA we always did a zoom meeting um we can follow the suit same so you're saying we don't have enough we don't have time to do a forum in in the public I mean we could do one on third March 13th yeah we like a discussion just make sure that we advertise it and like have yeah we can advertise on social media and have a you know into kind of move things on you know right why don't we do that why don't we plan to do that okay and get it out there um and we'll call then we'll see where we want to go from there with the rest of the calendar okay because on the 13th we're going to

089have we're going to review the decision for 20 P Roosa Road okay and we're going to open up the public hearing for 240 260 Pleasant Street the soccer field which is a so recreational soccer field at on those two vacant Lots um which which is a pretty good project is there any is there anything else in the 13th that you no the the only other thing that we have came in um oh there's an anr that came in that we'll have to review um uh which I've reviewed um and then um the historic commission we can reach out to see if they can if we can move them to because remember we don't have to there's there's nothing we have to do with that right we can do that at any point in in our

090calendar so we can we can I we can move them or we could we could just give them a a time we could do that or if they're because they're working on like the same calendar but they're not it didn't really seem like they were really open to changing the like actual text of their bylaw so the 27th would be fine right but my what I recall in that whole conversation is that they're looking for support leading into come on the does a vote uh come on the 13th versus March 27th they can do it yeah yeah I guess i' um depends on how if they're looking for feedback or they're just looking or they're not you know and they may not be I think also this is one of these times where you could

091say let's just you know put some put some time limits on everybody and say Hey you know I think the the the Pleasant Street project 45 minutes minutes you know it should take us maybe 15 minutes to decision um then we can kind of give a half hour to the ccal commission and then leave the rest of the um and we could add time and as long as the board is willing to kind of go by the the time limit set for each project I think that's appropriate okay yeah why if we want to do that or I'm having to reach out to Jim neon with the historical committee and say hey what do you think about coming back on the7 well I I think it would be good to have their take on it

092like like it makes absolutely no difference to us because this is our bylaw we just want or maybe we want more time to really talk to you about it versus fitting in a slot or know we'd rather have you would rather get some feedback on things in case you guys have changes you know it just you know what what are they looking for exactly from us so that we can make an appropriate okay okay we can do that in time okay so uh okay so that said um going back to the bylaws the um blood plane bylaw I met today with um with Peter and Alro and um Becca because I had been reading through it and I just had to make sure I could kind of um have a better understanding of what was

093going on so we went through a bunch of I went I had gone through it and said where it was unclear clear to me things that were um difficult to understand where things weren't smooth and did you say Peter that you made changes and that you and Al made changes and put them in is that in the thing already yeah so the bylaw that we put into we took away all the colors just to like make it easier to read um of course everything that is on red and crossed that's what it was on the all uh bylaw and we're not planning on keeping and then everything else is what we love that last time and then there's a couple of lines like for example in I want to say 8.1.3 um two that there's

094all subdivisions proposals or other development that is underlined that's because we were just making some changes on the language just to make it clearer so all the areas that you see underline are like that okay yeah so really we're just kind of going through and making it read just being organized make it read more smoothly taking out redundant information um and um and I think the biggest uh question we had in that discussion that I had for them was um when we talked about special permits when we talked about use regulations on 3 or sorry 8.1.4 that that use regulation basically said um that any of the following uses and I think this is from our original bylaw with some modifications right that any of the following uses have low the following uses which have

095low flood potential damage and cause no obstructions to flood flows shall be permitted provided they do not require structures fill or storage of materials and so these these are all kind of the they're like forestry and fishing and conservation and those are things that'll just be allowed because they don't do anything to the flood district and then we go into special permit which is where you want to build something in the flood plane and then what is the process and basically the process is a special permit because you're trying to build in the flood plane so anything that comes to us there also has to go to Conservation Commission um and so what we were trying to do is make sure the things that are in between those two things um say our example was

096well what if you want to put up a fence in your yard and it's in the flood plane you actually have to go into to the Conservation Commission to put up a fence not because of this but because of conservation so we wanted to make sure that that was um covered and and actually I'm not sure that NOA put in because were we weren't we going to put in something in that first paragraph 8.1.4 something oh we have Wetlands protection weren't we going to actually put in con Conservation Commission as as uh isn't it the reference last time it's the M add the wetlands protction mgl that's the W comma Wetlands protection bylaw action town code chapter two two yeah 280 and so obviously those are two the those two are under the jurisdiction of

097the conservation okay yep okay so for the special permits I don't know if I have the one we had the state suggestion has they they suggest that you don't have anything by right I I get that contemplating keeping what we had do they have a process for special permit and Is this different from that or does that follow that State's process yeah the state's process um try to that was that little paragraph that yeah it was a little parag my colge sheet yeah so the state's passess said the t uh so okay so we had permits are required for the purpose development in the for proposed development in the overlay overlay excuse me the flood plan overlay District so requires a permit for all proposed construction Andor develop in the flood plan overlay district and

098I think and including new construction or change of the existing buildings placement of manufactured homes placement of agricultural facilities fences sheds storage facilities Andor drilling mining Paving or any other development that may increase flood or adversity impacts of the flood plane and or other properties so I think what we kind of came down to is all of those would be kind of grabbed by the special permit because they're not within the by rat use right and then also within the flood plane you're going to fall into the jurisdiction of the Conservation Commission and so yeah I mean what my thought was is that I really don't think the planning board wants to spend its time debating about where a fence goes you know and so what would happen is that those things would not fall

099under special permit by the planning board but they all have to be looked at by conservation so if the if the fence is okay for conservation it's okay with me so the that list of things was just things I just didn't think is where we wanted to go on the planning board when really what we would be doing is well let's see what conservation says but I'm open to other interpretations of that yeah this is just obviously conversation and is that would that be the same situation that it would have to go before and if everything has to go through conservation anyway like that's that's separate from MBTA like any part like if any parcel that is within the flood plane it will follow right back into conservation regardless of it being so it's like

100a similar rationale it is it is a similar rationale to me I mean to me these two parcels and you know Al also made this nice little diagram to show us where those where that Parcels were um so both of those are um they don't get a free pass they both have to go through conservation but they don't have to have a special permit they have their regular site plan review um under MBTA but they don't need a special permit we don't double down on the special permit from the planning board because okay you know for issues of flood plane to me that's not our expertise let conservation handle it which they would have anyway and we would defer have deferred to them anyway um so to me it was a non-issue and Peter you

101said that um that you did a training on this and the state was recommending the that you write the exception in okay so there it's like fully yeah they're aware of the tension and are like they're aware of this whole the MBTA right the NBTA bylaws and the biggest effort for the MBT bylaws was to remove special to allow bu right right so if you're if a MBTA Zone was in the NBTA excuse me if your NBTA Zone was crossed with the overlay District that's going to be a and so they're recommending this language corre that's helpful and I think underscore your point yeah well I don't think that's true I think they don't think you should have any byright exemptions that's my recollection from last and so but they're saying if you have an

102MBT and they pretty much said be careful and if you do they the advise point is to talk to legal counsel and you know in this instance we do have two Parcels one has a 40b proposed and then the second parcel is is I believe it's 1.6 0.7 Acres within the toal par so I guess like that's that's my that's what I'm wondering so in the training are they when they were flagging it they weren't saying like these two things cannot be intended they were saying if you have overlap just write it into yeah the said correct okay and research it and I think what we came up with is that we're M our MBTA is is so specific on acreage using cus as the key piece right of meeting all requirements and having one

103contiguous area be greater than 50% of the total overall area is you know not to go back and redo that whole process e just to put in exemption what the understanding geographical geographically what is going on here Inland that's probably the best way to kind of solve them that's Town Council I've had discussions with them about but I'm happy to take it to I'm happy to have a further discussion and bring it back F on develop I me it makes sense to me if the answer sort of being like fed To Us by the state like understanding that these things could be conflict yeah it but I guess I think Kate raised the point last meeting like blood plan's there you know they don't want you to build the we encouraging and we're sort of

104like in this but we also can't have a special permit required the MBT is owning and like they sort of we in this difficult situation because the NBTA had to come before this and now it's like what you know what do you do and I we can't be the only Town that's in the situation no I would feel better if Town Council like gave blessing as on I think it the rational makes perfect sense to like that it's conservation F house yeah obviously we're going to have to have Town Council look at it and you know and you've already had discussions with her that's just a normal part of the process right but my question is like well what's the alternative right you're going to read do our MBTA zoning before this like right that

105that right it's already in there those zones are already in there it's already being reviewed by the state and it already was sensitive land we knew that it's part of the equation it's not like it oh surprise it's a flood zone it's already been in there like from day one so but I mean that might have been a mistake like let's face it that I don't I did not know that when that was presented no one said that hey this six acre parcel is sens of land and I'm not sure the public that so the people doing that knew that and that's fine but like I I just I mean I'm going to be honest I cannot support anything that the state gives you we we don't want to build here and then we're just

106saying it's okay and I get that there's other conservation but I I will not support that I think I mean I think I think it's a little my perspective is I think the state might be saying conflicting things to like we do want you to build here right because they do want building within yes certain radius from train stations and I mean the the train line into Boston follows the river right like we can't be the only community in this situation so there I think that there might be two messages right on on the whole we don't want you building the flood plane but also build new train stations which we again we can't be the only community that has the overlap I I think it's just a an acknowledgement that there's a million gray

107situations right things aren't black and white there's a million situations like yes these are in the flood plane you know what they're both parking lots right now right and it's not going to change no one's putting that back to be a a park right so um so it's a little bit being to me it's being kind of realistic about it as well so I I but we what's the alternative like what is the alternative 1060 is a it's not just the parking lot it's that's the entire site commercial building commercial building yeah that's businesses you're talking about a building built in the 18 1840s I guess my right so it it that's been built correct right so that that would that's a question of a replacement so I I think all of us to say

108like k i my initial reaction last week or last meeting was like oh like this feels like it's a major tension with but then it does also feel like we're being given conflicting directives and I think to your point Trisha and the state has approved the housing for that site right right so there's a third a third party think that's what I wanted to clarify with Peter like obviously like the issues being flagged this is the solution that sounds like is being presented so if our Town Council says like this I can the exception is good I feel like that's good enough so for me though I mean bylaws should means something right and so it is about principle when you sort of say well it's it doesn't really matter because something's going be built

109there and they said housing and I and I just don't agree with that way of looking at then what is what is your proposed alternative so that we can weigh out with the proposed alter we would have to look at at m at MBTA zoning what at changing the MBTA zoning that I guess we would have to I mean that that would be probably the The Prudent thing to do I'm not I would have never put it all in sensitive land myself I really didn't know that I mean I wish that was flagged well it's just that the it's on sensitive land and MBTA allows it to be there right it's not that it was a secret you can count yeah you can count it it's allowed and I think like in a lot of

110the presentations there was the 3D frame maps that show the sensitive land the excluded land and the density denominator which was the actual one that will take away density for it so there was not really a secret there were three Maps there in every presentation that show exactly the specific areas maybe we were not as great at doing the point of like following up and pointing out in every single one but there was three maps in every single presentation that were showing that and I think that if the state really didn't want any sort of building in there they would have made it in the model so you will not count any of that land like they did for the density denominator which I s strength yeah it it to me just feels not supportive

111of the intent of the flood plane rules at all I think um well so we'll have the Forum on it and then we'll have to take a a vote on which way to proceed you know with it I think if we have it in there that we're negating our own MBTA bylaw right so we'd have to figure that out with the state um but my thing is we put it in there for the state let the state the the state is giving us three different things you know that to to deal with let the state decide if we're handling it okay why should one thing get precedence over the other things that are important because that's exactly envirment should get precedent over when the MBTA um packages reviewed they would pay attention to each of

112those parcels and the features in those Parcels so the fact that this is a sensitive land would show up in some shape or form for the review it's in the spreadsheet and I wonder if we also have like a backup information just for our own Clarity what does that sensitive land really how do you define that and if there are again categories which is why this is passing when assuming that ndta package is getting asked without questions maybe it's passing under like bylaw like you said always has the interpretation is one thing and then there's always those sublines that probably we need to look at I wonder if there is a language of what that sensitive land means um and if there is a category that this Falls in in between two categories that then

113that's why it may pass um it may be a homework just for us may not something that we want to big up but I'm guessing MBTA package is getting reviewed they should catch it of us trying to I mean to Al's point you they had the formula and like you wouldn't we wouldn't if they had wanted us if they had wanted you to not used that land they would have excluded it right so I think to Trisha's point we are being dealt a hand where things are in conflict with one another we aren't I understand we might have each our personal way of ranking them and and um and saying which thing is more important I think for me when I look at a situation where you have regulations or rules that might be interpreted

114as in conflict with with one another like that's where I'm saying like do we have an opinion of our Council Council okay to be able to say for us to help us say okay we have things that are intention how what is our Council opinion on how they rank and I think that would make me feel better to come to this conclusion because I think this conclusion is reasonable I think I just want the backing of legal counsel to say listen yeah in a situation where we are dealing with you know regulations that are in one another and directives from the state that are in tension with one another you know are we in the clear to use this solution but but the MBTA they didn't tell us to put it there that's self-induced conflict

115right the flood plane we do not control that's a federal government and issued and expanded so that conflict was self-created by Ashley so I understand what you're saying but but you act like we didn't control it but the state's also controlling it because they had to review the proposal they created the formulas and the whole what you could use and what you couldn't use and so I guess what we're dealing with is um you know a mandate from the state on MBTA a mandate from the state on blood plane regulation so and then when they're conflict with one another what do you do yeah that's where I'm looking for like if we have blessing of Town Council to write the exception in and they think that that's a reasonable and legal way to deal with

116that tension I would feel a whole lot better about having it in there because I don't want to have to revisit MBTA but I share some of those concerns and I feel better having our legal council say to us this is a reasonable way to resolve it and push it I think it I mean you've already discussed it with Lisa I'm happy to but if if if if you want me to again no totally let's will let's me that's what comes out to I think I'm not goingon to and she I mean I guess like when you talk to her about it she felt yeah yeah you know it's you know this was a solution that was feasible guys and uh when I talk to Lisa on Wednesday I'll see if I can get her

117opinion and want email I think okay that kind of go from there I think it's a discussion yeah uh and and it's things are in Conflict things are always in Conflict right you're never going to have everything line up together um but if it's one state department saying one thing and it's another state department saying the other thing exactly what we have this stuff that like I also feel a little bit like you know it were at the crash roads yeah from a at a local level and that's what it comes out to and you also Anna would be saying the same thing well you know have to understand that that the special permit it just says no structure or building can be put in these areas without a special permit we can decide to

118put something in that area with the special permit I'm not saying we should I have the same principles but we're but we're balancing out complex things and it's not black and white yeah you wish everything was just perfect but it's not right you know so to your point it's the whole by right issue with the end that's that's sort of where the MBT zoning puts you in a pickle right because yes you we could under a special permit approve a building there right it's just that that's the hurdle that can't be there because of MBTA zoning and that's what's been created but it still has to go through conservation of course yes and so I I completely understand that rationale I guess I just wanted to know that you know this is not my area

119of legal expertise so I as a lawyer I'm inclined to when things are intention with each other have the blessing of lawyer who it is their area of like we this is a reasonable that's fine solution I hear I hear the situation whatever happens in the site right in mind you it's a site where the owners petitioned us to incre to to to bring MBTA zoning to them right and and whatever goes on this site right is going to have to go through site plan approval through the planning board process it's going to trigger storm water review that goes through the Conservation Commission and anything in the flood plane would have to go through the Conservation Commission so it's not like you're just going to say willy-nilly go out there and build build whatever you

120want right um however I do understand your your your concerns and and I'll talk to Lisa me Town Council and uh and bring back uh to the board her opinion I'm sorry I don't want to be person do that because I think it's a reasonable I will hold it got you okay so what is is there any other the only other the other thing in here which I think um Peter mentioned last time is the requirement for recreational vehicles to be that are placed on a site to be elevated and anchored in AC I don't know what elevated means but elevated and anchored in accordance with the zones regulations for a foundation and elevation requirements um so basically anyone with a camper W Wago I always said Wago Wago yeah and I'm not sure what

121Elation requirements like do they need to build a plinth to put this thing on or um I'm not sure what that I think just call Mike Kane and you go to 126 storage uh if I had to win a Bago and I live in a know I think that's my solution but uh yeah I think the biggest thing is they don't want these rolling down the river I think there's a song about um yeah so they Define recreational vehicle and they don't say anything about what that elevations yes that state on that what like we we should we shouldn't write something less clear we should try to be clear if we don't if we're saying right we don't understand we try clear that up FL it can we find out what elevated and anchored means

122elevated anchor yep I can yeah elevated how much I'm thinking I'm think 2 by4 and then yeah well I'm thinking like at the cape where you have to put the first floor of a house 8T in the air is that where your you know Hydraulics yeah exactly so it's out of the flood zone I mean likely it's not going to come up but we that would be nice if we could have that clar well because it is something that you could get people here that say hey I have that yeah you know um so uh so I guess the um the process would be then to get information on that to get information from Lisa on the MBTA to take out all the extra text in here so now that we're not showing what is

123there now we're just showing a clean bylaw would be my preference and then to have that for the um for the Forum next at our next meeting if that's what we're going to do right so that the so that it's very clear what we're what we're doing we can have copies that show the original bylaw but I think it gets very confusing when you're seeing both at one time and things crossed out and it just wants to be one clean bylaw is it uh how hard is it to create like the things that we pulled out of ashin like some instead of just showing them all like there's a few changes right there's not a lot I mean we can we can have the two copies of the two bylaws here's what we have now

124and here's what we're proposing but I think it's about to me it's about taking the old and oh yeah no it's time to get get rid of the whole thing and here's the fresh that makes it more confusing but people are going if people come to the Forum and ask they're going to want to see what what being replaced I think well I think we can have two handouts right new and old you know clearly labeled New or Old existing proposed or something like that you know and then we can kind of go through how they're different obviously like all these definitions are different you know kind of like big section that wasn't there before and um does that sound like an okay process does anyone have anything else they want to talk about with

125it okay that case um we don't need to make a motion or anything we'll just we'll just uh get that information and we'll get the clean copies ready so that we can look at them as well get it all nice and edited so we're putting our best foot forward in two weeks and then we'll can get comments from the public all right so then the other one is accessory dwelling unit um so you'll see next in the agenda right before the calendar is I just went through this today um kind of editing and Anna's not here to she was kind of working on this stuff too but I went through the bylaw that Peter put together after combining several and talking to Lisa but I went through it with my first pass at a fine

126tooth comb trying to make it clear trying to make it um you know the same ter that we're using the same terminology all the time um and this um kind know one and a half page thing is where I ended up so the first part of it is just obviously purpose um and the purpose obviously is to increase the number of rental units the number of affordable rental units and the diversity of housing options um obviously can add things to that but I was trying to keep it really clear the Gen General requirements Adu shall only be permitted in a zoning districts that allows by right single family residential that's that's the Massachusetts um law Adu is only allowed as an accessory to a single family dwelling so for instance you can't put an access

127accessory unit where you have your uh like someone has their business right or some or or an empty piece of land you can't just put on an Adu you're putting on a house then not an Adu right an Adu is without is allowed within attached to or detached from a single family dwelling um no more than one Adu shall be permitted for each principal dwelling unit and with a single family residential you can only have one dwelling you on it right correct the Adu and the principal dwelling unit shall remain on the same lot and not be divided into two separate Lots so there's no oh now I can subdivide my lot and have two properties um an Adu may not be utilized as a short-term rental as defined and Peter had a note on

128this that yeah just kind of to look at just kind of look at other bylaws uh I found one and then this is kind of a propo not a proposed but just going to read it is that says short-term rentals as defined obviously um are prohibited in both the accessory and principal dwelling so in that case you're saying okay there's no short-term rental in the in the in the Adu which is new and also there's no short-term rental in the in the principal structure on the lot now the question is would you like to add that verbage to our bylaw as proposed I think yes because otherwise this is the same thing you can move into your Adu and rent out your house right same same issue agree so it's a little okay so if

129the if the if the goal is to provide housing not Hotel then let's provide housing is my opinion on it I agree with that um and then um Peter also had a thought about putting in something that just saying it can't be condo ised like you can't take the correct so I've seen a couple one of the things that keeps coming up in conversations is can you condo eyes right and I think that's also still taken away from the intent right of the Adu bylaw and so I've seen some Town saying not condom and so again just in very similar to that is how do you you cannot separate you can't separate into two different Lots we're also saying you can't condo eyes it and have two different ownership creat away in in my eyes

130I think it's I personally from my my opinion which I will share without anybody asking I think it's good to add to the to the bylaw um and and if it's not legal then let the state cross it right go through that process but I think not adding it is uh kind of adding it kind of at least closes that door without having to open up that game so kind of along that s or there I I can't swear and Ashlin there are two houses on one lot but they commonly exists so that could mean two houses two adus unless we change that can come again sometimes there are two houses on one lot it's very it's very very um few and far between right yeah but the way that is you could have each

131one could have an ad I'm not saying that's wrong but we should make sure what number is this uh 7.6.2 okay so it maybe should more than one Adu shall be permitted for each principal dwelling unit so I think it's saying if there's two principal dwelling units in a single lot they could each Campa the way it's written slot and or lot yeah and no more than one per lot you could say so whether you're going by the lot or by the number of dwelling units you still just get one okay at least at the present time let's get a you know control of this thing before we expand it there are situations that there are two houses on the lot yeah those situations typically occur when both houses are there for pre-existing nonconforming and

132they're built prior to to right to zoning and the only way to split that is known as the 81l and that is when take that lot that you can actually split that lot without either a lot being conforming either lot being conforming kind of like weird nuances within right so let's add that in which then they could have two that would be fine they have a way to make each principal structure but we're not even saying that's yeah no no that that's a far-fetched but I think the intent is we're trying to make it as easy as possible to do one right and the next section obviously is exterior appearance and size there's some things I think like said Peter had gathered things from other Adu bylaws there's some things I'm not sure about the

133accessory dwelling unit shall be designed to maintain the appearance and essential character of a one family dwelling I guess I guess that makes sense um what I'm not wanting to do as I think I talked about before is put a design Sense on it like oh the existing house is so wonderful that we have to match it well it isn't always right so I don't want to really have that um other things that we you know we just talked about the set that um number one is obviously the state law um the number two is something we agreed that hey it has to be within the site the setbacks done right um and other things like I said are things that Peter had had found like about the front entrance um should we be able

134to tell the front entrance from um front entrance of the primary dwelling from the front entrance of the Adu um number four is about staircases which I think makes sense like yep you might need an an open egress s in the back but do we really want open egress stairs like porch pressure treated railings in the front of a property you know probably not if we can help it um detached Adu needs to provide for and I'm sure this was be under the building code anyway but they have to provide that that that just common sense right for five number five I think it has to have like that's just yeah building codes that's building yeah yeah so that can come out um and I wasn't sure about number six either exterior a well I

135guess six kind of goes with five exterior access AIS ways uh the intent of this okay exter ACC space shall not be detached detract excuse me detract from the single family uh appearance of the dwelling I think this is where it kind of comes on you know you you start allowing you know stairways on the exter that are visible from the I mean am I imagining like this the essential character of a one family dwelling and this one both seems to be like you see some stuff on line with the but there's there's like or like a hobbit house like these like do you know what I mean like these Niche yeah yeah designs that are it doesn't look like a home right I think that but that to me means like nothing on the

136outside is should make it look like it's not a house yeah is that different I think it I think it seems it does seem different than five and the over6 yeah well I don't love the overarching I I like the intent but I feel like it is getting design and it's so subjective and I you know when things are subjective they don't somebody's disappointed so um I think we should try to clean that up and maybe we just say that like maybe just say it's an intent but people get to do what the the byright is that if it meets building code it has to be yeah and I don't want to give why put more on the commissioner say does this meet the intent too doesn't make sense I think it's iffy in that

137way too um yeah weedy do that the weeds weedy I like it we use that a lot now B um yeah I I don't know we really need that I mean we have above it's the intent to maintain the single family character of the neighborhood containing adus yeah um yeah so that's good enough that just means it's an intent and it still doesn't matter as long as it building so yeah so no four and five oh I think four I think four is okay that's about the stairways do we want to put that condition what are we gaining by saying enclose the stairway yeah I don't all stairways shall be enclosed it could be a design feature it could be well it's true the thing is like okay when you when Adu um happens within

138an existing building right right you can carve out the third floor of your house that would be an an Adu you have to have two means of eress from that I mean that has to happen by fall we have to specify that no that's building code that's build yeah that's right but do you want um do you want a a a pressure treated um egress stair coming out of a third floor window of a house and going down the front of the house to the driveway that's what it's trying to control a little bit like the haphazardness like if you do it you got to kind of be careful about how you do it right it would meet code it meets code they put the fire escape stairs are you refering to that yeah well

139not a fire escape but like a yeah and a second means of ESS stairs could be or just like decking yeah like pressure treated wood like down the front I mean there's some in there's some in down to Ashland that do that right not down the front of the house but you see them on the side so you know because there's probably an apartment up there and that's your second mean to vigas so those are the types of things I wonder you know um I don't know I mean that still has your um yes materiality for that ER is different but it still has to follow the other Heights and widths as a neeger if that's is your second means of regress but for 900 square feet I don't know if you need to I

140think you do in fact that's yeah in fact I've talked to Doug about it before this even about regular adus and he said one of the distinguishing features of an Adu is that is a separate dwelling unit and has two means of egress as a okay so um so unless that's changed in his mind versus something else I think it is a distinguishing feature okay where're time yeah something like that but but do we I mean the whole thing is by right so I think these are skirting go to the Building Commissioner apply for yeah it may need to go through I'm I'm just raising it as a question right I don't know I think we are allowed to put some kind of controls on this but I'm not sure so it would have to

141be a question for Lisa and it would be a question for you know maybe Doug as well but um but I but I get it if we can't do it we can't do it I'm just raising the question that this is why some somebody else put this in their bylaws to prevent this type of situation that's all I'm saying Bea is and the beholder I'm not saying it isn't I explained why I put it out there so Mill building and a metal stairs works perfect but um I'm just going to share my screen real quick cuz I know that I I know an example from from from I just showed it to Trisha uh but you can see the screen here you know front of the house talking about big pressure treated stairway coming went

142off of the third so but but we started this saying we weren't going to have design requirements and that's what this is like I I just I feel like we're better off sticking building I think some suggestions of what aren't bad but like the building code is the code and it's very clear and then the directions are clear I get it I'm not sure we can even do it I'm just I am raising the question and I think there I think things like that are not the intent of what we hope to provide with these adus right so but that's that's looking at what some of the results might be and that we should think about that so if that's okay if you're like go for it then that's one thing if there's if it's

143possible for us to write something in to mediate it and again it might be a question for Lisa to see if it's even possible what's then then we might we want might want to think about it my question would be if there was a scenario where it is an open staircase would the square footage be more than 900 square fet and if it is enclosed with the square fet in the stairs within 900 no it counts again this is all through an egress there it's probably not this is all just through my experience with the zoning board of appeals and with Doug and going through an Adu that the Adu is is the locked door the locked door that separates you from the so if the door is at the bottom of the stair then

144yeah maybe if your if your door where you put your key in is at the bottom of the stair then yeah that that stair probably is your unit it's a private and no one else can get to it right but where does someone knock on your door where does where does Amazon come to that's your unit so should we Define that when we are talking about the 9 00 sare ft because now that raises a question to me right for me if I need that 900 square fet and the staircase is creating that open staircase allows me to create that additional area then I probably don't want it to be an open staircase right so if I'm saying from design point of view 900 that we have here is the usable area no it's excluding

145the erress you don't need it for that because again it's where you can have an enclosed stair without your front door at the bottom right Amazon would come up the stairs the enclosed stairs it's provided it's Sheltering you from the weather right for other floors snow can't get in there right so would that be like a staircase that's accessible for the other floors as well it has to be where it has to be where the like the two units are separate it's like a vegetable with stair could be a v that anyone can enter right like the the door into that area isn't locked M and then there's stairs inside and then eventually you come to a locked door but your unit yeah with your it's about the privacy of your unit and that what

146you when you lock out other people to your unit that's the 900 square ft so it doesn't include little vestibules in between between you know or any you know anything like that so I certainly don't want to do anything that defeats the purpose of the bu of sort of the initiative to have a place but I'm I'm sort of on the other end of the spectrum I think where I find to appreciate the things that are keeping some guard rails in terms of what the results looks like like I'm I'm good with the exposed with four and I'm good with the and if it's not permissible I'm good with the state Ora telling us that it's not permissible I don't think we have to make any decisions here I'd like Anna to weigh in um

147I like the public to weigh in but this is just so that okay we have a discussion going let's ask Lisa if she's going to be like oop no then great we don't need to discuss it anymore she knows it's not going to pass pass if she's like yep these things have been passing in other communities you have a right to put some def definition on it we can have a further discussion about it should we then add just exclusive that line which talks about exclusive of any garage shed should we say exclusive of St but not uh but it sounds like the building code's already clear on that it is I I think I don't think this is a if Doug is like very clear that it's locked door on then I feel like

148the building code addresses that and I I kind of feel like if we put like shoulds or we would like like that's where we've tried to avoid doing those things in the past because it's gray area and it's not actually enforcable it's like not yeah real and so my my personal preference is that like these things make sense it doesn't seem like it's going to be any of these things is going to prevent somebody from being able to build an U on their property yeah I mean things like the EEG they I mean I like I I've done edus in Ashland you know it doesn't count that stuff doesn't count in the same way that you can like it doesn't even count necessarily in towns um strict like Newton you know you your stairs doesn't

149count you have to get out of your house it doesn't count towards square footage it can go in the setback line like they just don't count for those type of things okay if it's clear that's and in the grand SCH like there's there are lots of other things that are going to prep up the cost anyone septic Sy but in a whole other like ceg situation right like that's a good point the way 7631 is written so you can interpret it you're it can't be more than 50% of the area of the house or 900 square feet and but you you can technically I think interpret it with it's 900 square F feet but I had a garage and a shed on my ad the second part of that exclusive because that's what Depot was

150asking about do we have to Define also the stairway so that sentence is that from the state law the way that's written I think that's from the state is that from is that the number one from the state law but what it's saying is that um and maybe I I'm only reading it here is that um when you count the square feet yeah you're not you're counting the dwelling unit you're not counting anything accessory and the same when you're trying to do the the what how big is the principal dwelling so I can take 50% of it you're not counting the garage or the stairs or the porch or you're counting the living space do we so is there a cross versus usable versus Net area or something that's how the square footages are typically

151defined because that when you do you have net or usable that's when all these kind of get taken off and that's a much more clear C language typically so I'm curious we can see if there's a definition something if there's a language word that's missing here yeah we can look and see if they're if they're spelling out a definition for floor area or usable floor area whatever um livable space or what however they want we can look for if that definition is in there somewhere from the state I think the state law is very similar but it might be a little bit maybe not maybe that's exact you talking about the definition of an edu a self-contained housing unit exclusive of sleeping cooking and sanitary facilities on the same lot as a principal D is

152not okay is no larger than gross Flor area of a half the grocy area or principal dwelling or 900 sare F feet whichever it's small so say they said Gross floor area correct so that's important so that you that's that's to the exterior walls which is what we typically measure yeah so so adding that is important because that's very different than saying floor area yeah so we'll make sure that that and the definition you know was in there and then that exclusive of garage shedu does that have to be there or is that the square footage does not include I mean it it possibly can be out if we have a definition of gross floor area because that gross floor area would not include the garage and that kind of stuff so if we put

153gross floor area we take out garage yes you should be a you should be able to take out that whole thing but but we'll need to make sure we have the glose gross floor area and have it defined in our definitions defition yeah the way we want the way the state defines it sorry are we missing 7.6.5 correct I know one element just to to be clear I was able to touch base with a DPW and I think in my last reiteration it talked about having a meter on the water on the incoming and a a meter on the sewer obviously you cannot meter sewer yeah the sewer is obviously estimated off of um so we just kind of clarified that with Dan M DPW this is a so why did we the question is

154why do they want a separate water me from the principal delling like why is that required for billion purposes but but that should be up to the person who's running the Adu not the town like are you having a second I don't because I can take a I can take a part of my house and make it an ad I I think right that that's what we're saying okay I'm going to put that ugly staircase out front that you don't want right and and why would I have to get a separate water for that and a separate meter I mean there are simple ways to make an Adu and there's complicated way right so I just don't understand why that's a requirement I'm not saying that people might not want it as an Adu and

155I let the people take all the showers they want and pay their own bill but I don't know why it's requirement I can follow up yeah and actually the state does provide definition of gross floor area but it is the interior faces of the exterior walls Center so if they had doesn't say anything about glazing but so no that's probably the commercial interior faces of exterior walls or from the central line of wall separating buildings or dwelling units but excluding CW spaces garage parking spaces attics enclosed porches and similar spaces so so there's our definition simp gross flare area right and we have to add that and we'll add the definition and they also have a um oh it's also says where there are multiple principal dwellings on the lot the gross floor area of

156the largest principal dwelling shall be used for determining the maximum size of a protected us Adu I've got that covered so the like stuff like that we don't have to that's don't have to repeat it in our bylaw well there's a whole list of definitions here but I we might want to pick out a few of them and have that updated definition as our bylaw definition right so um yeah there's a lot of these you know that it also has fairy terminal I don't think we need that in ours so no no do you think no fairy terminals not not here in Ashley so yeah not too much Coastline okay I wonder to your question what happens how do every level has a different water meter Tech no they don't that's what I'm saying I

157don't know why we're insisting on that I mean I two family had one I'm going to start to stop the conversation I'm going to follow up with DPW and come back next yeah I'm guessing the intent is if it's two separate units versus in the same building we want to just clarify I'll clarify I have no preference he parking we talked about last time I think we had kind of decided on the half mile that half mile is by how the crow FR flies and it's not how you walk which is never the crow flies um that sentence on location and appearance of driveway I mean I get yeah do we need driveways look terrible anyway so what's that that last sentence on seven six six yeah so as long as they're following the general

158the driveway bylaw and they're following the driveway they're doing the same thing that a single family house could do because they're following the driveway bylaw yeah and and with that just the back story there is in our bylaws we require 5T between the driveway and the property line so a lot of places Ash that people pay up to the property line but it's in the bylaw that's should be 5T there so someone tries to extend their driveways that yes there 5et but you have you do have number seven driveways shall be designed in conformance to section 6.3 of Ashen zoning which which that which I'm calling out okay y yeah that's a yeah that makes sense obviously this isn't a common driveway as a special permit required when you theoretically which was do have a

159special perer right and that's come through a subdivision process theoretically wave right through a paperwork right and so we're not going that that's that's a different application y so I just kind of want to call that this is not a common uh requirement which is a special on the 7 if I I just get it's supposed to be just a building per by right to have this separate permit you know what I mean like it just makes a layer that the whole thing sure it does kind of but it might it might be able to be very uh much simplified I mean it's just building code at this point like that's the whole point of I think two and three are I think three is addressed by two comes out I agree three comes out

160but I would keep one two and four and I think one just kind of makes it clear who is the where does the application go for you it's not hurting anymore um but is there a separate application like I don't understand I thought it was a building permit but it's going to be Ed it's going to be Adu accessory D you building permit so it's going to be a building permit and what you're applying for is it yeah so is is a different process you have to have the you have to know the square footage of the existing house you have to have 50% of that you have to know what that so it is so it has what this is such shall be conducted currently as part of the bill application implying that there's

161some other process that's what I'm I could take out we could take out that second sentence yeah I mean I think it's important to know who the who it is like you're not going to the zoning board of appeals anymore you're just going to the building commission so um yeah so he is just reviewing building permit so we can you know take that out but is reviewing it in a different way than a single family home because it's different the or what I mean can you impose conditions on a build can like like to and you have I mean your condition is it has to be built to what you submitted and has to be I I guess I'm sticking to the are these different than we do with a single family home I have

162never that where you reading this 7674 yeah I think I probably just I I probably took that from a sample bylaw yeah we probably don't need it you know I would say any condition I would say any condition of the law is not fulfilled it's not a condition impo any conditions posed but yeah I'll look into that for but I don't I think the biggest thing is if mean I think that's also you know what is the situation if say edu comes in right and then somebody does start using ter and somebody Flags it on Zillow or on whatever and yeah we do have the ability to enforce it it's almost come to enforcement but cance through other measures but you know I think that's what it's trying to kind of clarify is if you're

163not following the rules and regulations of State bylaw in this bylaw you will be stripped of right enforcement almost like an enforcement and but I can see taking it out I don't think we have to have it in there there's other enforcement measures um in our regulations and from of building Commissioners a building commission's perview so I'm neither here nor I think that's probably the that's the intent of what I was trying to in include within that's an important point I mean I think we I think we should 10 to 10 here so I'm not sure I can think completely yeah clearly about it but um but yeah it's it's about you know um making sure you know how do we make sure that the regulations we're setting forth are followed one is the building

164permit process obviously but then what about after that so and then the first guidelines they do talk about okay State information we have to and other Adu bylaws you prior to this like okay they rented to a family checked in but I think in this case it's almost saying okay it can be R they're not following I think that's where that word come from revoked Upon A determination that these regul because there is times are not following right we know that everyone that I think it's just a little bit of an enforcement action bylaw that you put in that again doesn't doesn't change can you or can put ad you in your house just saying and you're clarifying hey if you're not doing this there is a penalty that come through the and it can

165come through the zoning zoning but that can be changed that language can changed and it can be removed but I think that's the intent all right well I think we got it down more and more and more clear which is great so um and we have some things yet to be discussed which is fine so we'll do another iteration of it and then but we'll plan to discuss both of these bylaws on March 13th have a form at that time and then see if we can tweak it to our final and once we go through and um just have a clean copy of it we'll have Lisa look at it too so that we already know the answers to those questions before the 13th all right is there anything else on that uh no comments

166I think it's close yeah I think it's close all right site plan oh site plan review timeline uh we still need to you know what I haven't I was out last week and this week's been pretty busy catching up so I haven't even chance I I looked at it I know what I need to do um and that can be kind of brought forth at the next yes so we have I mean that's a really simple thing right we're just changing a date so I've already so why don't we why don't we put it the same form as the rest of them no like it's it's one L that also needs um public hearing right so that's why I'm saying well we have the for with the rest of them yeah I think because it's

167about it's just about changing a number right yeah it comes out to section 9.4.3 procedures site plan review and design review and that comes under three and it says the planning board May hold a fact finding public information meeting I don't want to change that the public hear because we hold public hearing we do not hold fact finding right um information within and it says 30 days I'm going to say 65 days match it up with special plan which and the regulations and then really from there on out that's pretty much so that's one that we can have like as opposed to these two bylaws which are new I'm going to take this I'm GNA strike this che check and it's G to be right done 100% because C plan review you know we talked

168about this right C plan review need it just lives in it's not in but any site plan review we have a public hearing we notify a Butters as Che section 4A reir the process the best practice we just want the process to go in tandem correct yeah okay well I think the best argument to the public is sometimes they're both and that's just worse and like yeah for so we're taking yeah I think that I don't think anyone will have a problem with it either but yeah for yeah okay so we'll do a simple one like that and we'll keep it we'll keep it with all the other bylaws that we're going to have all the stuff at the same time um and this project after planning board approval has to wait because I'm too

169tired to get into it someone else wants to take the mic and you can lead yeah do it tonight okay um anything on that list that has to be discussed before we do meeting minutes just the the one new project just want to mention um we have an anr plan for 11 Franklin Road um and that is a plan that will be circulated um that is the Hicks property behind the Valentine okay uh there is a um there was a um deed restriction that was purchased by the town in stating that there could be only eight dots carved out of that parcel this will be the first lot of those oh okay so I have all that requirement that documentation I uh and his wife last night when they dropped off that plan and then

170the only other news for new projects is the application for 61 Waverly Street 40b was dropped off to our office last Tuesday and so that process is going to start rolling with the z um that's the information I all right thank you I saw Marcelo I he was at the meeting but he left early is that was at yeah oh okay correct you think it was was weren too many I don't think there was any emotions because we all we did was talked about there's no motions with the as historical preservation and discussion correct yeah I don't think I can do a search all try to find it right does anyone still need more time all right any want to make the motion make a motion to accept the minutes February 13th meeting as presented

171and a roll call vote gu Amanda and and I so those are approved and anyone have anything else our next meeting is obviously March 13th than that we're at the end of our list all right then I will make a motion to re uh adjourn at exactly 10 o'clock is there a second a roll call vote cath Jers gu and Trisha Kendall I so we good right thank you wacka thank you Paul e e for