001[Music] hello and welcome back to the Views Express we have a very special guest uh this time around on views Express usually we hear from local dignitaries political dignitaries uh leaders of Industry etc etc we have something even better for you on this podcast waca Alum Connor D Donovan Connor welcome sir to the podcast I you could call me a leader of Industry if you want we might get there on this show you know what I I I think after the folks hear about what you've been up to we will end up calling you just that so um disclaimer uh folks who are listening Connor first off it's just wonderful to see you man um you know hard not to get emotional I remember uh when I first started here at waca you were one
002of the first folks who helped me produce some of my first fourways into Community media um so it's just amazing to see you and we had a chance to talk a little bit before the podcast and I know what you're up to but I got to share it with the people um I Connor how have you been I have been great I can't complain but uh no again it's wonderful to see you wonderful to be back at the studio as always I love coming back I love visiting um but no I've been great I uh right now I am producing events I'm doing a lot of what I did at the studio sort of big scale I do a lot of White Collar events um I've done events for uh ge done events for Petco
003and I typically do either like investor days or industry Town Halls on top of I do live sports as as well I've cut shows for ESPN I've cut shows for Fox Sports but I like to sort of always bring it back to to Ashland in a lot of ways and so I've been doing that now through a lot of work with Joe White from ashline Community Theater where we've been doing some featurelength stuff we've been doing some short stuff but get to flex that sort of cinematic creative muscle as well my goodness Connor um yeah I you know and that's why you're here because you know I I think that folks need to know about how imp actul Community media can be not just for those of us who consume it but for those of
004us who produce it and particularly the young people who have made WCA what it is Connor I got to ask you how did you get started here at waca what what what made you take uh it was partly I needed a job um but partly I had a connection and there were uh there were two brothers who used to work here Kyle and Kendall Gibson um and their mother was actually my preschool teacher down at little folk Farm um and she and my mom had stayed close through the years and when I was a freshman in high school I was sort of on the beat looking for a job and they said well if you don't want to work at a pizza place you know because we have eight of them in Ashland um probably
005more and shout out to the pizza places in Ash shout out Town House Pizza who I know is a sponsor yes and it would not be Ashlin without our wonderful Pizza play true and I actually did end up working for Town House Pizza for a spell as well right on um but no and they basically said they were like you can come work here you know they're looking for interns and then the interns a lot of the time turn into sort of buy event people sort of Freelancers Conor Conor how old were you I was this was 2010 so I was 14 14 years old 13 13 13 at the time 13 so did you started as an intern is that how it's so do you remember your first day at waca like I remember
006my first gig okay what was your first gig it was a football game it was a varsity football game and this was back when station was in the middle school and they were also still playing games at the middle school um and Paul will maybe remember this Paul is in the control room the producer uh my first game I set off the alarm at the station because I did not know that you were not supposed to walk through the halls of the school because it used to be connected right like the station in the Middle School used to have a door next to the library that went right in so I went back in the hallways when you're supposed to go around after hours after the shoot it was like 900 p.m. MH and I
007went in the back door that was open and set off the alarm and that was my first gig that's amazing actually that is amazing so so after that happened uh why did you decide to go back yeah that's a good question I was mortified you yeah yeah but but you came back and you did it anyway like you know and and and why why why did you did you just like well you know what those things happen were you just resilient did did you have a a talk with uh with uh with waa staff did you feel like there's just more you wanted to do like why did you come back yeah I I don't know it's interesting I was actually thinking about this on the drive over here because like I liked movies all
008right when I was a kid you know I watched a good amount of TV when I was a kid but I W I wasn't like I want to be an astronaut when I grow up but with Community media you know interesting yeah and so I I guess you could say I was sort of aimless in terms of like a projected career path as a freshman in high school if that is that's the way you want to look at it but I think that I just sort of gravitated towards the sort of community that was here at Waka and I gravitated towards the the opportunity for learning as well like it's it's so cool when you step into this studio for the first time and you see all the cameras and the lights and everything that
009goes along with it talk about you know talk about that opportunity for learning I think that you know it's kind of exciting I find it obviously I find it exciting too um but it it's got to be exciting to a 14-year-old kid who is stepping in and seeing professional production equipment for the first time and not only seeing it but being trained on it and being trusted to run it that's got to be a lot it's it's a lot but it's sort of like there's always a community that's here to like to help you out like like I was talking about our producer Paul he helped me cut my first show on a switcher that is still in that control room over there cut a first show Connor what don't get too technical for the
010sorry sorry I I we did a multi- camera shoot of a show that I don't know if still do is called unplugged um where basically just an acoustic set of somebody coming in and doing a concert um and it was a multi camera shoot and all of those cameras come back into one program or one big switcher and so you get to choose between the cameras and take what you want take whichever shot you want live um and so that's sort of you know the the graduating step because you're behind the camera and then you're behind the switcher and then from there you can go as many places as you want but uh yeah that was sort of the first the first time where I was taking that next step and Paul was there with
011me the whole way um but there's tons of people like that at the station like there's always when I was here there was always that sort of Next Generation to sort of show you the ropes like if you didn't know what white balancing was on a camera they'll teach you if you don't know what gain was if you don't know what ND filter was they'll teach you every single thing you need to know about a camera when you're on site so you get to learn by doing and I always thought that was so important you know I I I want to talk a little bit more about your personal and professional journey and your academic Journey after waa but I I do want to ask you a question nowadays you know with the Advent of
012YouTube with the Advent of a cheaper production you know you and and I'd like you to talk a little bit about technological Leaps and Bounds that you've seen when you're here at the station to but right now I think a lot of folks feel like well you know why why would I need to train on this kind of equipment I have an iPhone I can just point it at myself and start a YouTube channel and then like two years later I'll be Mr Beast like is that is that how it works I mean I think Mr Beast himself would tell you that's not how it works really you know like I hate to get on a high horse but it's like you know not that influencers you know influencers are not broadcast right it's it's
013what's the difference the difference is it's like there's there's advantages to be gar Leed from both right like if you were an influencer moving into the broadcast world there's absolutely things that you can take from being an influencer heck I was a I was a podcaster for a while in college and I still use the sort of stuff that I learned the programs that I used the sort of audio expertise that I gained from that I use that on site whenever I'm tasked with programming audio but you know there is sort of that leap that still needs to be taken into the sort of professional broadcast realm and as as much as iPhone commercials would have you believe like iPhones are not broadcast cameras and but I believe everything I watch on television yeah whenever
014they say shot on iPhone like sure it was shot on iPhone but like there's more to it than that well I mean it may have been shot on iPhone and and these iPhones are great but there's also probably you know stabilizers there's also probably mics or it's not just someone holding up their their iPhone and shooting a movie yeah from that and that and I think that's to your point right like that's the difference between cat you know a broadcast quality experience as opposed to being an influencer and just kind of going live in kind of like a a raw kind of context so so to build on that you know I think if if if you do want to be an influencer or if you do want to maximize your your YouTube presence you
015know for folks who were interested in doing that why would volunteering at waca even be helpful or relevant to the new world of you know internet I don't want to say broadcast because it's not broadcast per se but you know the the you know the influencer space the the social media space like would are these are these skills transferable could I mean it's is the training you get here at Community media still relevant yeah I mean I do want to say that like I think that it's it is overall I I don't want to sound like pretentious because like I do think it's a good thing that the the playing field is leveled in a lot of ways for creatives who want to get into broadcast right it's just like making that distinction between like
016you know if you're getting hired for like this you know sixf figure event like it's not going to be covered by iPhones right I I think that's just the but it's also great because you know the one of the directors who's not nominated for an Oscar Shawn Baker he shot one of his movies on an iPhone and it's a brilliant film it's called tangerine and it's like that's there's it's good the playing field is sort of even and leveled for people who want to get into the industry in quotes I suppose or like even be creative right right but I think that it's worth stressing that like Community Access is right there with them like the the advances that that waca has made in sort of taking that next step like waa has a social
017media presence waca had does live streaming waa is on All Digital software mixers now you know like like they're also taking the next step it's not like we're we're shooting on film here while everyone else is shooting on on iPhones it's right if you want sort of transferable skills in stuff like social media like if you want to be an influencer you still got to edit your video right and like an adobe Adobe Creative Cloud subscriptions if you want to edit on Premiere that's real expensive that's like you know more than $300 a year and so if you're a kid who wants to be an influencer wca's got free Creative Cloud subscription here you can come in and you can edit and learn how to use Premiere or photoshop or after effects or anything that
018you need to do because like they're keeping up skills that speaking of transferable skills skills that could develop you professionally and academically so I want to loop back to your journey a little bit so you're doing waa stuff in high school and then it's College time it's time to go to school what did you study an undergrad yeah I I went to UMass amorist and I studied communication and film studies and theater um so those were my sort of I I started off with Communications just because as much as I loved waca I wanted something that was sort of broad right I wanted something that was going to cover multiple disciplines and sort of set me up for maybe a pivot if I realize that I don't really want to do broadcast it's still broad
019enough that it gives me some wiggle room but as I sort of I I also during every summer and during every winter break and spring break I would come back here and and I would work for waa I would do basketball games I would do graduation in the spring so you do public affairs programming thank you very much Conor I tons of public affairs programming I would do every government meeting Under the Sun you know yep so uh there I I stayed an active member of of waa when I was in school because and that's sort of when I realized I was like yeah I think this is my thing I think I want to really and that's when I added the Film Studies major wow that's when I added the the theater major just
020because there are also transferable skills from you know the stage to to broadcast I got to ask you Connor like you know you've learned a lot of technical skills here at waa and it sounds like obviously it's been very influential on your career decisions and and what you're doing right now what other sort of lessons did you learn being part of the WCA Community um in so far as working uh with others etc etc anything you want to talk about there yeah I mean I mean soft skills are the are the name of the game right I mean like it can't just be sitting behind a camera it needs to be you need to be able to ask the right questions like you know when it was 2010 and when I had no idea what
021to do behind a camera you know I had to have the sort of advocacy for myself to be able to say Paul uh what is shutter speed you know what how do I wi balance this you know and from you know moving on further it's like when you're the guy behind the switcher when you're sort of the director the producer as you know if you work at waa long enough you're going to get to that point um then you need to be sort of in touch with hosts like yourself you need to be able to communicate a lot of technical information to hosts you need to be able to produce the show and like tell the hosts how to produce the show in a lot of ways um and that extends you know that I
022I work with clients all the time where I'm I'm technically the producer on these shows and I have to communicate and distill information into sort of digestible ways so they can look at it because these might not be people that are sort of broadcast oriented and that's okay but like that's why they bring me in right right um so I think that and waca like allows for that sort of career growth and like personal growth as well but at the end of the day it's I think adaptability is the biggest thing that waca teaches and I mean most jobs will teach adaptability in some way but it's like when you're under the gun for a live event there's there's no fewer adrenaline rushes I get than like when you're about to go live on like
023a big time event um and W and things are goingon to go wrong right like it it's try as you might whether it you know these gigantic events I work on or whether I do a high school basketball game at some point something is going to go wrong and it's like it's not if something goes wrong because it is going to go wrong and it's how you respond to it and so that's sort of what I took from waca is because like oh if something went wrong what do I do as a camera operator What do I do as a director what do I do as a as a graphics operator or a or you know a stream Technic it's just like responding to these moments of of sort of Crisis is something that I
024think I mean not that waca is in crisis on every shoot because that's not what I'm saying but like it's it's something that it's a learned skill and being cool under that pressure definitely comes with experience that's what it is uh being able to perform Under Pressure I think that's that's exactly what it is and and I will add actually um one of the things that I found most impressive uh with you and with uh many of the other students who have worked here at waca is you do acquire uh some some extraordinary soft skills uh to be able to basically provide guidance to people who nine times out of 10 are older than you are maybe experts or maybe even gasp local celebrities here at Ashland um or whatever and to be able to
025have the confidence and the Poise to be able to direct them or to explain Concepts that they're not familiar with um and make them feel comfortable around those situations that skill is is priceless and I've seen that like I said I've seen that in you and I've seen that in so many other waca uh alums and and I don't know if a lot of high school and college opportunities allow young people uh to be able to get that kind of on the job uh interaction with a variety of types of folks and to gain that confidence in Poise and and I think that's transferable no matter what you end up doing after you leave waa um whether you decide to go into broadcast or not so yeah yeah I I mean even if even if
026you're not client facing like existing on a crew is its own it has its own sort of set of communications whether you're at the top or you're at the bottom you know like I said if if you you need to be able to ask the right questions if you don't know because you don't want to be the guy that's sort of caught not knowing anything and not willing to learn anything but at the same time like you need if and if you're the director you need to be able to adequately communicate clear and concise instructions to your crew so it goes both ways right like you don't need to be at the top of the food chain to have good soft skills but they're learned either way it's an excellent point so you 2010 my
027goodness um you have seen a lot of change in technology to just to give people a flavor of what things were like back in the day at waa like what people were definitely not shooting things on iPhones sure wer the cameras were not very good on iPhones what was what just just to Let's jump to the Wayback machine for all the Gearheads out there like what was happening at waca how are we putting out programming uh well I wasn't there I wasn't the programming guy no no I'm talking about like how how were we producing content here how the how the sausage gets made right well we weren't in this studio for starters we were we were in the middle school yes um and we were on Mini DV t we weren't on SD cards
028we weren't on internal memory of of cameras we were on literal digital tapes that we had to tiny little tapes that we had to pull the footage off of using using a fire wire and unfortunately I never got to edit on DV tapes um but it was one of those things where you know you had to slot the tape in the camera you had to push record and you know eventually we got to SD cards a couple years later which are sort of what we use on everything nowadays MH um but even stuff like these LED lights these were you know tungsten these were these were like very much not LED they were old lights in the the old studio and they still we still got them up in the in the Attic wow yeah
029I mean it just just and you're you're a you're a young person this is 2010 you know right so this was just 2010 so the Leaps and Bounds technologically that we've seen just in in media and you know now you know like you you can theoretically set something up that's broadcast quality like in your garage if you know what you're doing so but like even even back then I I don't think that would be even something and I'm just trying to I am actually just personally trying to get my head around like trying to edit with tape at this point and like I just don't I don't yeah I mean I I wish I did it so I can tell you um because it's a whole different Frontier of sort of you know where so
030used to just being able to plop things in computers and right pull the footage right there um oh there there was no live live streaming either right yeah I mean I think I think waa they would live broadcast football games but there was you know we couldn't just it wasn't going on the internet it wasn't it wasn't on the internet right um it was it was live on the channel but it wasn't live on the internet and so that's another big Advent of sort of live streaming being common place and sort of we went through a lot of iterations uh both here and I worked with hcam uh in hopkington uh we went through a lot of iterations of how do we do sports games how do we do government meetings what is the most
031what is the best technology what is the best company that is sort of pushing the live stream game forward right now and for a number of years we used a company called live stream yes which was a a subsidiary of Vimeo at the time yes and there were these little red boxes um and that's how we streamed select board meetings that's how we streamed you know the Board of Health Health all everything through these little these little boxes whereas nowadays it's like that company doesn't even exist anymore um so I think it's being adaptable in that sense too it's always because in my opinion the industry is going to leave you behind if you're not like willing to look for the the next thing and being D diversifying yourself across all these different like companies
032because we were talking about video switchers earlier there's a million video switchers like that broadcast picks video switcher in there that I learned to cut on is it like it's not industry standard you know there's there's a million different other video switchers that you need to get acquainted with because you're G to run into a million different switchers on site um I have to ask you and this is a bit of a curveball you know some folks out there are probably thinking well that sounds really great but like AI is going to take over everything so why what's even the what's the point like my kid might might want to go down to the community media and do whatever but like what's the point like they should they shouldn't have to learn these Essentials or
033these Basics CU humans aren't going to be involved in any of the stuff like tomorrow what what's what's your what are your thoughts on that um I will preface this by saying I am an AI hater okay fair enough I am I am a hater all right why why are you a hater I'm a hater because well I mean there's a lot of like social stuff that I like you know the environmental impacts of stuff like chat GPT and stuff like that like I've never I've never used chat GPT before and like yeah I mean you could be like oh you don't use it so you don't know but I'm like I don't know it's specifically for your vertical your profession like why it sounds like you are an AI skeptic I am um and
034do you feel that it's do you feel that it's even critical for for folks who are interested in a career of broadcast no matter how we're defining that in a few years to learn some of these basic skills because the machines will do it all for you anyway do you it sounds like you'd reject that argument do uh because AI is a tool right at the end of the day AI there are some phenomenal like implications for how we use AI like I know Adobe is really sort of Leaning into this AI stuff so you can like edit V you don't even need to edit videos they'll edit the videos for you but at the end of the day like if you want control if you want creative expression over the things that you put
035out and I feel like places like waca do and like I feel like most people and most creatives if you want to be a creative on the Internet or anywhere like you want control over the final product and so it's great that adobe is using leveraging these sort of AI tools to make videos for you but like if there's no instruction along with that then it's like it's not really yours right interesting so I I think you know you could make the argument that as a beginner it might be helpful to use some of these tools just to get your content out there but to your point it you know there's a maturation you know being creative like you might just purely utilitarian purposes say like okay this is going to allow me to get
036this out quickly and maybe I don't have any support or help but there's going to be a point where you're like well there are certain choices that I want to make and there are certain things that I want to do and I need to understand the processes and understand the theory behind what's going on so that I can manipulate that and you can't do that if you just sort of hand it off right you know and so so you know what I'm hearing is that you know as amazing as this technology might be there's still the need to understand the basics yeah I mean and there's there's the need for for for human hands behind a lot of this stuff at the end of the day like I think about I think about AI as
037something that that is could be beneficial to like like lightening a workload like in the industry uh there was this AI program that was developed for Dune 2 if you saw if you saw Dune 2 I did um so in Dune one all of the eyes of the of the fman they have blue eyes right they manually had to track the blue on their eyes for every single frame of that movie they had Graphics VFX people track the blue onto their eyes for every single shot of that movie and that was what hours hours of work than money even if you're thinking about from the studi perspective you have to pay all these people to track the blue onto these people's eyes so they created an AI that will detect the eyes of specified characters
038in a shot and because there was I mean no spoilers a lot more fman in Dune 2 right there were a lot more of these characters that needed the blue on their eyes yes they developed a program that will automatically detect eyes and put the blue on it so that's something that like it's AI but it's using sort of artificial intelligence sort of generative technology to lighten the workload rather than sort of take all the creative control away from for repetitive tests that you know don't really kind of aren't going to it AR aren't going to help you develop your skill per se um you you see it as a very valid use of it so so you're not it it doesn't sound like you're a hater I think it sounds like you're someone who
039actually is kind of thinking very closely about like what are the practical uses and what what are some of the ethical uses too like you know um you know not to substitute human creativity but to help enhance it by taking care of some of the lower level tests that nobody really wants to do yeah and I mean I I tell you how many times that you know I've had to I've had to quote a job for for people and they they say oh do we do we need a camera operator can't we just set a static camera somewhere and let it and let it go you know or even if you think about something like robotic cameras PTZ cameras which we have at the town hall right it's like yeah you know you could have
040one person controlling for PTZ cameras but you can tell they're PTZ cameras right like if you watch if you unless you have a very skilled operator unless you have like top-of-the-line you know robotic camera technology most of the time you're going to be able to tell that there's not a human operating that camera and like most of the time people are going to be able to tell if you didn't pay a camera operator and you just have a static camera sitting there for a 90-minute show you know right A lot of the time it's just like you kind of just need the person you need an individual to do the job interesting and uh a lot to think about I you know we're we're getting close to our time so I want to bring it
041back to uh maybe a couple waa memories I I need to ask you Connor what can you share an experience here like just something that happened that sort of influenced the way you influenced the way that you sort of viewed your career path or influenced um you know what you wanted to do if you could point to like maybe one one instance here one incident or one one occurrence here that sort of that that sticks in your mind what what would it be that's a good question I uh I was never much of a sports guy growing up but I think I think that when I did my first basketball game when I was on site for my first basketball game um that really sort of sparked something within me where now like I wouldn't
042call myself a huge Sports guy but I'm very into basketball and I'm I'm very into live live production when it comes to sports I uh I do the I do the uh professional Ultimate Frisbee team here in Boston I'm the lead producer for that and so you know there there needs to be sort of kineticism to sports and I really gravitated towards that and even you know watching stuff like you know we're taping this the day after the Super Bowl you know seeing all the the technology that comes around with a gigantic production like Super Bowl yeah there's always Innovations and I mean I remember when uh the Olympics came along in 2016 the Summer Olympics um Paul was telling me how he knew the guy that uh or he knew of a guy that
043developed the technology so cameras could submerge in water without bubbles getting in front of the lens for diving because they need to follow them into the water and so like stuff like that it there's technological innovation and there's so many like creative choices that go into every single like cut and replay and everything behind and so I think that my first basketball game I really sort of experienced that where you know when you when you hear like oh camera One camera two camera three and you're sort of caught up in following the action if there's a shot going up if there's like a layup or even like a foul shot I remember I thought it was the coolest thing where we had we were all wired we weren't we weren't uh Wireless at at that
044time um and we had this camera on a dolly on a on a wheel Dolly and whenever a player would take a foul shot we would wield the dolly out to um sort of right under the basket and so that camera would stay in the corner until someone was taking a foul shot we wheel him out so we can get that Fronton shot of the player right before he takes the free throw and I I thought that was the coolest thing because it's it's such an added Dynamic to see this player's face and see the the visible emotion he he has right before he shoots right and so I don't know stuff like that really sort of made me fall in love with Shooting Sports that's amazing um you know I I I'm just listening
045to you Connor and I'm thinking of any any folks in the community who might be interested in coming on down to to experience uh producing creating uh you know content for Community media I got to leave you with a couple more questions but again with the Advent of so many other outlets and so many other ways to create what is the place of community media going forward here in Ashland and other communities does it matter I mean you're I'm very biased I think it does matter um but I think I think the million-dollar question that a lot of community media places have been asking themselves is like how do we show people that we matter like how how do we adapt in a way that sort of grabs the attention because you know attention is
046a commodity nowadays right indeed like millions of dollars are spent trying to get your attention whether it's on your phone whether it's on the TV and so like where does community media fall in that ecosystem and I think that's that's a fair question but I think Community media is also more than like Community media doesn't need to be able to grab your attention because I think it it's important as it exists on its own right it's an outlet for people to to be creative like you could come in and you can start a show if you don't want to be by like we've been talking about behind the camera right the whole show but like if you want to come in and host your own show you could do that if you if you if
047you have something to say yes you can you can like you you absolutely you can come in here you can you know talk to to me or to Paul or anybody who's working and you can come in and we'll show you the ropes and we'll show you how to host the show if you want to get into broadcasting on the other side of the camera this is a valuable place um but I think it speaks for itself with things like government meetings yes you know like local government meetings are are the most important thing right it's cliche to say but like your local elected officials have way more of a sway on you than a lot of the people in Washington do right and so being a plugged in Community member involves sometimes sitting down
048watching those select board meetings that we put out hopefully more than sometimes times um but but I I couldn't agree with you more and I think in today's today's crazy media landscape um one thing that is missing uh or is neglected and has been you know resources that been slowly being cut away from are coverage of local events like even though our local television station or local broadcast stations they are awesome um and our newspapers too they're amazing they've been doing amazing work for years but even those newsrooms and and those folks are are stressed for budget and there's only so much they can cover many times Community media is really the only way to find out what's going on hyper locally right so from from a cons media consumption standpoint I I very strongly
049feel that Community media is is critical but also to your point to be able to actually get involved with the community and to learn about how that media is produced and to produce your own content and to produce you know your own programs and to be a part of that Community media um you know that Community you know that that this is a tremendous Resource as well and and I do have to say that I'm very proud that you when you were 14 decided to get a get a job here at waca because you know I think that the the the the community of Ashlin is very grateful for all the incredible work that you've done I know I'm personally grateful for a lot of the excellent work that you've done um and uh very
050proud of everything you've managed to accomplish and take advantage of so um I do want I do want to say that y it's it's so gratifying Community media work is is like you know I I I went off and I I had to sort of leave the station behind at some point but there is I always feel like there is a hole in my heart in a way when I do these sort of big white collar events you know and people are getting up there and talking about you know shareholder value and and the numbers last it's important yeah but you know stuff that's going on at the corner spot is way more important and I'm not being fous like I genuinely I I I miss the sort of connection that I that I had
051with a lot of the community members here in Ashland and it's like yeah I had to move on at some point but I really think that you know it's one of the most gratifying things that you can do in town is to get involved with with local community media because you're plugged in in a way that is not only going to teach you softt skills hard skills you know technical stuff all that and the other thing but like it helps you get in tune with your community and I think that's something that like everybody should strive for in this day and age and it's something that's not easy to do right like we're we're talking about you know your your attention being a commodity but it's like what community is is something that I feel
052like is slowly I don't know I don't know my neighbors so and I sort of wish I did in a lot of ways I sort of wish that I had an Avenue of sort of connecting with my community in the way that waca offers I I can't think of a better way to end our discussion uh although I I will say that you know you can have both and the fact that we actually got you back here to talk about your experience with waa means that you'll always obviously have a home here at waca and you'll always have a community here and you can go off and do your great corporate jobs and help those folks do whatever they need to do but we'll be eternally grateful for you here Conor um Mr Donovan thank
053you so much for joining us on the views expressed thank you really appreciate it and everybody thanks for tuning in we'll have more great podcast content for you soon um thanks for listening [Music] e e for