Planning Board: October 24th, 2024

001e e e this is an audio test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test definitely not continuing to test are we good sir so yeah test test test test to neighbors test test test test you might want to give us a little more level test test test she's probably sick of me but e e e good evening everyone and welcome to the Ashlin planning board meeting of Thursday October 24th a reminder to everyone that the meeting is being broadcast and recorded So first on on our agenda tonight well is the call to order which I will do at 7:18 and next we have the clerk's report Kate thank you madam chair we have received five correspondents to the planning board from the last meeting since the last meeting

002um two of those are other boards or committees in town so I'm assuming you'll respond to them and then I think two of them will be it's not it's a specific response will be Town planner and then one that is sort of our regular the clerk's response okay just um keep uh letting Peter and I know when they're there things that don't seem to be taking care of or ask us to I know you're do a good job taking keeping on top of that all right great all right next on our agenda is public comment since we do have a lot of people here tonight I do want to say that um this public comment session is just for General issues of the planning board there'll be a whole separate public comment issue on the

003public hearing so this would be for things that do not have to do with MBTA or the other issues in our agenda just it's just for general public comment so if there is any general comment public comment we will take hands online or in the room you would come to the microphone and I will limit that to one minute per person assuming that everyone is actually coming for something on the agenda do you see any hands Peter uh at this current time there are no hands and just to all members online uh Andor all residents online please note that you do not have the ability to unmute yourself um and so when there is a time for a public comment we're going to ask everybody to raise their hand online and then we will uh

004move through um public comment in an orderly fashion okay all right then seeing none we will move on to um our the one public hearing we do have tonight which is the opening of the um uh MBTA communities bylaw um Peter I will turn it over to you to kind of officially open that public hearing excuse me yeah sorry thank you so tonight the pl board um opens the public hearing um regarding uh Master General law um chapter 40a section 3A which is also known as the MBTA Community zoning law so in accordance with the provisions of Mass General Law chapter 48 Section 5 of the ashon plenum board will hold a public hearing on Thursday October 24th at 7:15 on the proposed amendments to the ashon zoning bylaws and ashon zoning map the subject

005matter uh the subject matters are being proposed in compliance with the multifam zoning requirements of the MBTA Community section 3A of mgl chapter 48 and specifically noted below um this public hearing was posted in the town clerk's office and it was also circulated um in the newspaper of General circulation that would have been the Metro West Daily News the proposed zoning amendments and zoning map map amendments are available at the town clerk's office by appointment during the regular office hours Andor our Ashen MBTA community's website through the link through the following link that link is listed on the agenda and it was also Al in the public hearing notice as provided parties wish to be heard on this matter should submit comments uh to the planning board ahead of time and or appear at the

006time or place indicated above that is tonight at 7:15 welcome all uh it's a much bigger crowd than normal so I think it's great that everyone's out uh to learn about the MBTA communities furthermore information uh uh excuse me for uh for more information or to submit comments please com contact myself Peter matk uh for everybody in the room my name is Peter matk I am the town planner director of planning uh my phone number and email address we listed so tonight uh we will go through a presentation about the MBTA communities um and then that will also include the districts that are within the proposed districts um right now there are five districts uh but I will wait uh and I will um present and we myself and Trisha Kendall the chair will present

007a PowerPoint with that said I will share the screen share the PowerPoint please note I am running the zoom meeting online so I'm going of doing two different things here so please be patient with us as uh there are a lot of people here in the room and there's a lot of folks from Ashland uh Andor interested parties online so please uh I thank you for your patience in advance and um just because we do have a lot of people in the audience and a lot of people online usually aren't so popular um I I thought it'd be good idea just for the planning board to introduce ourselves as Peter said my name is Trisha Kendall and I am chair of the planning boarda Katherine Jersey I'm also the clerk for the planning board Amanda

008Hayes I'm the associate member on the planning board and we do have uh two in our number um Anna tesinsky and Marcel Arona who um aren't at the meeting tonight um so um you may see two other people in in other meetings or at at town meeting um that would be here as well but uh that doesn't stop us from having the public hearing tonight we do have a a quorum of three out of five members of three out of five full members um and so we can open that public hearing right Peter three of five correct we are are ready to go okay so um what we thought would do first um just because there's so many people in the audience is to go through the um go through a presentation that just talks

009about a little bit about MBA the MBTA communities and how we got to where we are so um I'm a little out of practice giving this presentation um so the requirements for MBTA um um ask us to create a zoning district with at least 50 acres my glasses on so you're starting at the yep you go you can go to the next slide yeah so it's creating a zoning a uh a zoning District or districts we have multiple districts that is a minimum of 50 acres and 20 acres has to be within um a half mile of the MBTA station that's the one here in Ashland not the one down the road um toward Southboro um each district if we have this more than one place has to be at least 5 Acres it can't

010be smaller um half of our land so half the land that we need to use total has to be in one big chunk we can't divide it into too many little pieces um the minimum gross density for all the areas we assign is 15 units an acre so that's as lowest we can go and we have to allow multif family by right this is to encourage obviously not only the building of homes but the building of homes for families um and the all the districts have to have some kind of access to the train station it needs to be connected to by a road say it doesn't have to be within walking distance all right next slide Peter oh I'm sorry yeah sorry Pa Peter is multi multitasking here okay so it's important to understand

011that the zoning district is not building units it's just zoning it's on a map it's on paper it allows it to happen but it does not build any units okay so because we are a commuter rail Community versus a tea Community or different kinds of communities we need to take our housing units as of the 2020 census so our Ashland housing units are 7,495 housing units in Ashland we're required as a as a commuter rail District that we multiply that by 15% and then we get 1,124 units housing unit units that we need to zone for not build right um so what we did on the rest of this slide is just to kind of give an example of what that would mean so minimum density if we take our units and we and we

012say we want to have the the density as low as we can 15 is as low as we can go so we would take our units 1,124 divided by 15 and that would give us 75 Acres at that density remember we have to do at least 50 but if we went minimum density we would have 75 that's one scenario another scenario is the minimum land Den density what if we only used 50 acres and no more we would take our total we' divide it by 50 and that gives us 23 units an acre so that would be with the smallest land mass that we can use we would have to do 23 units an acre now our solution is what we're proposing is is NE it's somewhere in the middle right so um yeah there's

013there's a few uh there's there's a whole spreadsheet that the the state requires to to be filled out that takes into account our bylaws takes into account minutia of this law um but we won't get into all of that today all of that has been figured in the bylaw that we're proposing okay next slide okay so it's just um I'm just going to go through these quickly there are certain areas that we cannot exclude that we cannot use in our bylaw one of those is excluded land it basically includes most areas that are not state or town-owned um you can't use land that has a use restriction or is that conservation land none of that land is allowable to be used for for this MBTA bylaw so next one um the next one is uh

014sensitive land you actually can use the sensitive land if we wanted to um as part of our zoning District that would include flood zones and farmlands and things and obviously we didn't want to do that we don't include any um sensitive land in in what we're proposing and this next one is trickier the density denominator it's hard to um it's hard to even even get into what that means but it's just um it's it's some lands that you can that you can um You can count for in your total land area but you have to take them out when you deal with the density we have very very little of these in what we're proposing you can see that some of those so this that would be the orange area and you see that some

015of those overlapped with the green area and overlapped with the gray area they're just areas that in general you you don't really want to use again it came into effect very very little in in what we were um what we were doing and then in the the state spreadsheet um the assistant Town planner um uh really worked on on that a lot um Alvar Oar aspara corre um and uh he was the one that got into that detail but we don't want to it doesn't affect us much and it's not land that we use so we'll just go on to the next slide okay so all of the um the underlying color on kind of shows all of those green gray and kind of orange areas that we're trying to avoid or that we need

016to avoid in putting together the Acres that we do want to use and I want to say when we started this process I I think about a year ago uh the planning board and the select board together decided to form a working group to start looking at at this law in detail and and how we would approach it in ashin and that working group included Peter machic the town planner Alvaro asaro who's the the assistant Town planner myself and Joe minani from the from the select board so the four of us have been working all year to um to look at the law look what's available in Ashland how we could fulfill this law it was not our job to say if we should fulfill the bylaw or not we were we were our charge

017from our two respective boards was to find a way find the best way that Ashland would comply with this so that was that was the charge given to our working group so um so we started first of all by having a few um a few just general guidelines that we felt strongly about one of them I I would say is that we have a comprehensive plan and process that we put a lot of money toward we have a large group of citizens working toward that comprehensive plan and our group of four people did not want to make decisions for Ashland we didn't want to make decisions that should be made as part of the comprehensive plan process that we all get to vote on right um and that includes a much larger input group than

018ours so um so we were very sensitive that we also decided that we have a lot going on in Ashland as I'm sure you well know as far as housing and other changes we wanted to use what Ashland has already been doing Ashland has already been building housing and permitting housing and we wanted to use that as much as possible which we are allowed to do by the state and to use the land that um is already in process for housing again because we didn't want to make decisions that should be coming out of the comprehensive plan process this just has to come first because the comprehensive plan isn't going to be done for a little while so the working group has been working that way we've had several forums um two before the Springtown

019meeting and then two other ones in in the last several months um we've met at various times with between the planning board and the select board to give them updates to give the larger group updates to get to feedback and um finally we um we landed at the bylaw that we're going to talk about tonight um which uh several meetings a couple meetings ago the planning board also went through it in in detail um so the the properties that you have you see up here there's ABC and D oh so that and FNG I I don't really want to talk about FNG but um there there's a few there's a few Parcels on here that um sorry this is this is from an earlier uh presentation there are several parsels we decided not to use

020for for various reasons um I could so um but let me just go through what yeah well we don't have one that was that oh yeah we do that's just okay yeah I can also bring up a map well don't we have the one that we're if we go forward don't we have the slide about the ones that we actually just are using okay yes okay so these are the ones the other ones early on in the forums a few months ago we had a couple properties that we had considered using and ultimately decided not to because we thought they had risk for for different reasons if you if you are aware of those properties or if you have questions later about those properties I'm happy to help to to talk about that but what

021I really want to talk about is um what we're actually what we're actually proposing in the bylaw so these are the properties where we're actually that we're actually working on um a is Cirrus right it's already built there's already housing on there but that doesn't mean we can't use it and that and that this so the Cirrus land mass takes up that at least 50% of the land that we're proposing that's our big piece right right the other ones um uh letter B you can see kind of right in the middle of the map that is 100 chest oh Cirrus I'm sorry it's up Memorial Drive like uh 135 um by the Dunkin Donuts by the train station and it's the development at the top of the hill um so you you can't see it

022from the you got to go all the way down Memorial Drive to see it it's right and so it's it was built in that you can walk down to the train station yeah you can walk down the train station from there sorry there count it's okay so the the units don't count we're not counting units we're not counting built units we're counting the potential of the land to hold the units so in these properties in these properties that I'm going to talk about the state would consider them empty like just empty land as if whatever was there was just gone right just empty land that's what we're looking at it's just land it doesn't matter what's on it now okay make sense okay and that's why it's just a zoning thing and not a building

023thing so a is is serious and and please do reach out with questions if you if something like that comes up um B kind of in the middle of the screen there that is 100 Chestnut Street that is um by the Avenue of the Americas and it is currently in construction if you've driven by it right so right so that's that's that c right down in the corner there that is 501 Pawn Street the planning board that is right on the right on the edge between Valley Farm and the mini golf right there's a piece of land there and the planning board approved a project there about two years ago it was so the planning board in 2020 approved the project on that property um and that was for10 units with 25% affordability right so

024there's a there's an approved project it nothing has been built on it yet um then if we go back up you see e again kind of near Cirrus that is kind of a little skinny strip of land and that includes burnhams and it includes basically connect church that that land along uh Pleasant Street and then you can see f um that is 10 to 60 Main Street the the mill the mill buildings and those are our five pieces of land that we decide to use we could have put it all in one we could have put it in more pieces but these are the ones we felt we felt good about yes um only as it relates to MBTA as it relates to the bylaw because that's what we're in a public hearing okay I'll

025wait I'll hold okay nothing again just to remember that for the MBTA bylaw for the MBTA for the state they consider that that land empty as if that it doesn't matter what's there okay um all right uh if we go back to the presentation I'm sorry folks Trisha before we go back to the presentation do you think it might be useful to just talk about the like when the law was passed and like what it's like when we have to comply like the sort of not um maybe Peter can do that I don't have it right in the top of my memory right now yeah Peter's just going to give a little history of the MBTA bylaw what the actual why we're doing this basically yeah excuse me so just a real quick kind of

026synopsis um so excuse me everybody in the room thank you um so the NBTA bylaw was um passed back in about 2020 um and it was done um by previous governor Charlie Baker and was done as a as an economic development package right and so the the the purpose um really and the goal behind the NBTA communities is to um kind of open up and open up housing right and as as Massachusetts faces a housing crisis and faces a housing crisis today right there's not enough housing and for the last three decades we haven't built enough housing as a state not just as a town um and the MBTA communities is building upon infrastructure that already exists right the MBTA so the MBTA as a whole as as a organization has nothing to do with

027the zoning indoor title but it was back in 2020 that the state the legislature um in in at the time that the governor Charlie Baker passes regulation and the regulation um and it was to make obviously communities a lot development at 15 units per acre Allowed by right now that doesn't mean that any unit has to be built right the state in its model they want to show the the towns and cities and towns need to show that the state that zoning allows for this to happen um and so this is being done Ashland is a um a u a we are a host of a tra of a excuse me commuter station so we're known as a commuter station town and so um by law and and I know there's been a lot of

028um news going on about MBTA communities but Ashland as a host Community um our deadline to um adopt a bylaw is December 31st of this year of of this calendar year um I can tell you um and this is maybe a little bit of a Sidetrack but we Trisha and myself and Joe manani and Alvaro um of the Plenty office were working uh we did have a planning and a bylaw put together leading up to last Springs town meeting um we did not move forward with that because we wanted to see um really what the situation was going to be in ashin at the time and closer to the um the deadline and um we did know that there was these 240b housing developments that were coming um and there was talks of that and

029so obviously we kind kind of held back a little bit I can tell you this bylaw was put together to take advantage of existing housing in Ashland and housing that has already been built and or permitted number one and it also looked to gain compliance um Ashland and and really the other thing to note and to understand is that there are there that money is at stake for communities right if the if if one doesn't um adopt right at this point the state has is going to withhold um funding uh such as grant funding um and with that um that's a big that can be or could be a consequence um so that is the matter excuse me I see your hand and we're going to we're going to open this up for public comment

030at at a at a time and and we'll let everyone come to the microphone and speak so thank you for context with the state what the law does is say there are different tiers of communities right we're a community that hosts a Commuter Rail station that's different than a community that is adjacent to a community that or near to a community that has a Commuter Rail station it's different than a community that has a t- stop um if you're you know very very clo if you're Malden or something like that right that has they have different requirements so Trisha walked through what our rules are um in terms of density and acreage and all of those things the sort of rules it's a puzzle it's a puzzle that Trisha and Peter and Alvaro and Joe

031have been working on for a year and the rules of the puzzle are different depending on what type of a community you are so we're dealing with the rules that Trisha mentioned about you know what the minimum density is what the minimum acreage is um what we're allowed to split the rules in other communities depending on whether they're an adjacent Community or a te Community are different right so we're playing with the rules of an MBTA um commuter rail community and um and I think it was helpful to sort of give that context I just have one comment um Peter I'm not sure everyone knows the term by right maybe we should just explain that briefly sure so the term bu right is it's going to be allowed without a special permit right in zoning

032when you dig into zoning um a lot of zoning throughout Massachusetts and I and I say throughout the Commonwealth um a lot of towns use this special permit obviously as as a as an Avenue right um and so with that the state is mandating that all all development within MBTA zoning is allowed by right that no special permit needs to be granted by a granting perent Authority which would be the planning board and in some cases the zoning board um and so that really in theory is is as I would probably say is one of the cornerstones of the MBTA uh bylaw is that this development has to happen by right now planning boards and towns have the ability to go through what's known as site plan approval any development that would come into the

033town of Ashland under site under the MBTA communities would have to go through site plan approval um and that is a uh a a a major lift by any developer but that's going to look at um access Public Safety um but also it's going to look um for design um and and it's going to follow the b in make sure it follows the bylaws um that the town either adop you know would adopt when in the future law was up on Beacon Hill one of the concerns was removing restrictions from removing ways that communities put hurdles in front of development for multif family housing right so they're looking at a housing crisis as Peter said you know the state as a whole has been building less housing than it's needed to for decades to accommodate

034sort of how the city and the surrounding communities have grown and so removing things like age restrictions um removing multif family that some of the things the rules of the puzzle that we talked about earlier tonight um are designed for that purpose right to say like you can't put these these restrictions on um the land that is set aside for MBTA zoning um and I think part of what the working group has done and what the planning board has talked a lot about is um being careful as Trisha has said to utilize what we've already done in the town of Ashland because while while the state is considering the land empty we all know from a practical perspective there's something there already that helps us compared to you know taking a completely new parcel of

035unbuilt land um and so when we're talking about these Parcels they're you almost all of them are either permitted or or or built yeah so you clarify the yeah if do you want to go back to that slide just that shows the five clarify that yeah yeah and I just wanted to say thanks to to the board for for jumping into things I'm I'm so deep into this that sometimes I can't see the forest through the trees so if you have questions please and something isn't clear please uh please let us know so if everyone sees um e on a um and sees that black circle around it that identifies a half mile from the station um I can say that 40% of the total land area has to be within that half a mile

036radius and 40% of all total units would have to be within that radius because the town built cus right cus is a 398 unit um apartment complex permitted in 2016 built in 2018 I believe occupancy granted were occupy per occupany permits were gr were issued in December of 2018 um that land area is 28 Acres that is a huge piece and it's the key Cornerstone to making our calculations work in Ashlin um but that is the the the regulations um call for having 40% of the total units and 40% of the total land area within that half a mile circle of the train station okay if so if we can just um if if people wouldn't mind letting just letting me get through like what our proposal is do you have a well this is

037the this is the um Circle that was given to us by the state within a half mile radius yeah for 40% of what we use right so we're allowed to use Parcels outside of that Circle but 40% of what we use has to be inside so that's where Peter was saying that Cirrus is such a big part of that because that is inside right so everything doesn't have to be inside the circle right just some of it has to be inside the circle 40% of the total area 20 it's about 28 it's about 28 8 Acres so it's a little bit over the 50% margin which is another rule that we had to look at right so the state regulations right call for um half of your dist half of your district has to be

038contiguous glued together right which is a huge piece and so because we have cus cus in our total acreage as you can see on this slide is 56 acres in total right that 56 Acres gets that's above the minimum land area of 50 acres which is needed right and then with Cirus Cirrus is about 28 Acres Cirrus gets us above that 50% contiguous in addition because Cirrus is so large and it's within the half a mile um buffer of the train station it also checks that box per se um when it comes to the state uh rules and regulations that they laid out um that all cities and towns have to follow Peter do you want to slide up with the parameters yeah or you're trying to go to Sor um yeah I want to

039keep uh I want to go back to those five properties that we can start to explain those because some of it I'm doing in context this one no the um the one with the five that one yeah so there two slides but yeah started serus so just to look at these a little bit more carefully okay so remember the the goal of the working group was to try to come up with a plan for ashin that actually affected Ashland as little as possible that was our goal because we already have housing that we've been developing and approving and because we have a comprehensive plan in process and we did not want to step on the toes of the comprehensive plan which is coming from the residence right so that was our goal so this is

040how we I I'm going to explain how we why we decided to use these parcels and why we're using them so again the first one is Sirus Sirrus so that's pretty obvious it's the big piece of the puzzle and we put a a good amount of D I don't remember the exact density we put on that um Peter can you remind me as we go along yep so it's um it's about 28 acres and we put a density on it I think of 22 I think it's about 20 I think it's 24 units per acre um is there a what no there's sorry it's um there's not a maximum density but in this spreadsheet for the state for instance you couldn't take one parcel of land and just say we're just going to make that

041really really dense and we'll put all our housing there because with all of the other ashin bylaws which these projects have to follow they have to follow setbacks they have to follow height limitations they have to follow those it would be impossible to make that work right so they they both have to be doable for the state regulations and they have to be doable within our bylaws without changing the bylaws or or we or you have to change the bylaws to make them doable okay and the density is only one rule in the puzzle there's also the minimum acreage there's like all of the different rules of the puzzle right so they're not they they don't let you say oh you can put as much density on 10 acres as you want right we have

042to do the minimum of 50 acres yeah right so um okay let let me get through the five and we'll take more questions okay so again the first one is Cirrus um and that one is um units remember it has to be a minimum of 15 we can't go lower than that that one will have a density of 21 units an acre right um area B which is along Pleasant Street remember from burnhams through connect Church um that area we we put at a density of 15 units an acre the lowest we could have it the reason we thought that would be a good property to use um is that it's inside the circle right so it gives us some land inside the circle and actually the bylaws that we already have in place um

043the zoning that's already in place in that parcel already allows multif family housing to be developed at a greater density than MBTA is asking for so that's with that's in within our bylaws right now right so we're not we're not giving MBTA anything because someone could already do it it's already in our existing bylaws all right um the next one is 10 to 60 Main Street which is the mill buildings right it's across from the bagel table um it's one of the sites of the 40b project so we wanted to use this because it's a pretty big land mass um we have that again that set at 15 units an acre now this is a whole separate thing from the 40b projects this MBTA bylaw and the 40b is that that we will be dealing

044with very shortly in Ashland they're two totally separate things but we decided if housing is going to be going there and sooner or later something will go there a project was before the planning board even a year ago um we wanted to be a to keep it you know we wanted to be able to use that land in is in our equation so the current proposal in front of that will be in front of the zoning board of appeals for that 40b project sets that density at 36 it's actually 31 units 31 units an acre we've set ours at the minimum at 15 units an acre so um so again keeping that very low if someone's going to use it they'll have to use it at very low density then we have 100 Chestnut Street

045that's the project again on Chestnut Street is in construction right now um we set that um density at 30 units an acre sorry which is basically this a very similar density to what is being built right now so we're keeping the density it's that building is already going up um and we basically match the density that was already there try again trying to use what we have um for our density and just to note that development is 174 units in 105,000 square feet a commercial just for facts and the conversation yes those are for rent yeah those would be rental units those are rental units and then um last is the 501 Pawn Street that's I see again the one between so that that parcel actually includes Valley Farm 369 yeah which is 369 pwn

046Street and includes the empty lot next to the uh the mini golf right so at the very end of Ashland so it's those two properties that are included in C and that density is set at 22 units an acre so the 22 units an acre would be a lower density than the project we actually have approved for there and and the other half of the site is already covered by a large building is that those two together I want to say it's so so just 501 Pawn Street is about three about three three and 3/4 acres and so one of the rules in the MBTA zoning excuse me talk so let me ask your question first so that P Street 501 Pawn Street is about three and a half acres per se right one of

047the rules in the MBTA zoning is that a Min a district has to be a minimum of five acres and so what we have to do is we have to glue 369 which is a which is a recently developed project that we see that we have we're making the assumption that land use will most likely not change because that's a very successful business at the residents at Valley Farm and the 50501 pawn Street which is a permitted project and what we did is we theoretically we we we did not match but we brought down the density at 501 um just above what they would be allowed to do by right because we do already have a permit there for 120 units which is a which is also what that permit also includes is 25% affordability

048which is a positive thing um for Ashland and the Ashland subsidized housing inventory which right now is below the state mandated 10% so um as we go so so those are the properties we're going we were going to use um okay well maybe I'll take some okay no that's fine if you need to yeah um so um what we want to do is to um well obviously answer any questions we want to make sure you guys understand what's being proposed but what we were trying to do with the proposal is to use land that's already built on with housing land that is already have approved projects on for housing um and then to you know look at in in the case of um in the case of Pleasant Street adding on what we need to

049to get to the Finish Line kind of here to get the units that we need but again in order to in order to change Ashland as little as possible so um our theory was is basically that it's it's highly unlikely that the um that Cirrus will be torn down in order to build something else or that 100 Chestnut Street which is currently into construction will be torn down to build something else so we're that's what so what we're trying to use what we have since we have already been engaged in housing in Ashland um before before I take more questions Peter this is is um since this is a public hearing the typical process on a public hearing is that you do need to come to the mic and state your name and address we've

050been very LAX on that but for in order to be recorded properly that's typically what we need to do I don't know if we have another a loose microphone that sometimes we have those in the room so we how you doing so we do not have a loose microphone in the room we're going to have to ask everyone to come up to the microphone um and and state your name and your address and then um and then you can State your question I will also take questions online so I will kind of volley back and forth between online and in the room um so just please be patient with us as we try to listen to to to the to the statements to the questions and then try to get you know a response so

051so and then that so if people want to come to the microphone that the bylaw online which we can also put up here on screen um should be hopefully um after hearing this explanation start to be a little bit more self-explanatory it's it's fairly concise for a BW there's a lot of definitions that's the whole first page but really it talks about dividing our responsibility into five subdistricts which I've named and then to and then to describe to have a chart about what is what are the setbacks and things for that District now all of the setbacks and the the numbers in there are taken from the bylaws as they already are so the only thing we're looking to put on here is is the is a density which is required by the MBTA we're

052trying to use our bylaws as they stand so the decision about what to do in ashin comes through the comprehensive plan process and not through the MBTA process so um one thing so all of this is our current zoning stays and the MBTA is an overlay that's right so yeah so the what um our our zoning is getting a little complicated in Ashland and it would be nice to straighten it out in future years maybe after comprehensive plan but this is an overlay District so the NBTA District goes sits over everything else and developers can then choose like for instance along Pleasant Street the first overlay district is industrial right that that's our old zoning so if someone wants to come and put a Factory I guess um along Pleasant Street that's the underlying zoning

053I don't think anyone would do that on top of that is what's called add it's our Ashland downtown zoning District a and that allows for a whole different set of uses that are more applicable to me a a downtown area you know some businesses and housing and things like that right this sits this would sit on top of all of it so so that a developer doesn't have to follow MBTA he can follow he or she can follow any of the zoning that's applicable to that spot so we're not changing any of our underlying zoning we're just putting this option on top of it but this option on top of it has to pay attention to the underlying regulations and going back to that theory of this isn't saying that the unit that units have

054to be built it's just saying what's allowable if someone using the Pleasant Street example wanted to come in and build on that strip they would have to say which zoning they're using right and they can't so T Trish's point about how the zoning that's already there the add zoning allows for what we are allowing in the MBTA zoning we're essentially just using what we've already allowed in our existing zoning um and that's the only unbuilt and UNP well not completely built and not completely per or not completely permitted parcel that we've proposed everything else is either built which means it's low risk because to Trish's point someone would have to tear what's already there down and rebuild under the MBTA zoning or it's permitted and they would have to take in under consideration whether or

055not they wanted to go all the way back through the process and use um the MBTA zoning rules instead of what they already went through and all the expense they already went to to get their permit and the only example of that is 501 pond so do people have there were questions out there please don't be shy about coming to the microphone you just need to state your name and address this just formal for for these kind of meetings and I just want to make a note uh for anybody online uh please raise your hand and I will call on you and then I will click to allow you to unmute uh unmute yourself um so with that said I see one person in live uh at the at the podium so please miss step

056forward and St your name and address my name is Kimberly lentos and I live at 79 hildale Road and I just want to say thank you and I really do appreciate the position that you're all in in trying to make this happen in the best way possible I just really appreciate that up front um a question I do have um so I don't understand I lived in hopkington 20 years ago and at that point they were talking about 40b and they were addressing their 40b and with all the development that's happened in the last 20 years in Ashland how did we as a town why are we still below the 10% minimum because I know that it's a 10% to 25% for um municipalities and I'm just curious between the units that have been built

057over the bunch of years which is where why wasn't percentages sort of Taken along the way instead of it being a big problem all at once to try to catch up so um does that make sense yes but um those percentages that you're talking about about the 10% has nothing to do with the MBTA these are two completely separate things well so you were talking about how just I'm just curious because some of the units as you were talking about earlier were about the 40b in the percentage so it's the density they do they overlap in a little bit which is what you so I apologize if the question is timed right no what we're doing is comparing what we're doing is comparing what the MBTA would allow to go there and showing that we

058have made a a significant effort to make it very much lower than the 40b would be putting there but we have no control over that part of the process it it's not related to the MBT process I think that's a common point of of confusion though so 40b is a totally separate law right that's been on the books for for decades sure MBC communities is a very new law that's from 2020 right and so they have totally different requirements the requirements around um affordable housing and and what and there's we have that's a very very long sort of story as to the 40b answer I think it's important though to clarify to Trisha's point that the only the only consideration of 40b as it relates to to MBTA Zoning for us is um is that

059the a 40b came in on a parcel that was potentially advantageous for us to use in proposal no oh that was the one that you had cited earlier I apologize it's 1060 main it's the mill building which was before the planning board last year so help me understand then the comment that you made earlier regarding 501 so let me take this let me take this so right so back in so I understand where you're going thank you I think I can say this I can't speak for the town for the last 20 years is sure right I I don't think I I I can I can do that I can say is that um Ashland as it's developed right um we the town of Ashland has allowed um has has within the developments right has

060has built in 10% affordability right so it's kind of keeping level we're not gaining there was no G ground gained within that affordability within that 10% number right okay previously I would say there there was two developments one was approved as a 40b and it's in litigation right so the town lost its count on that we haven't really discussed that we're not taking in that into account that's a that's a that's a development um which was kind of a budding cus um but to your point of the 501 Pawn Street right is that the town of Ashland gave a special permit and a density bonus right to allow 120 units to be developed through a special permitting process process right 25% of those units are going to be affordable which is a pretty good permit

061right um and but that project was never moved on right and so right now it's still vacant land the permit is still live right um and but with that we want to protect that permit at 25% affordability right because with a 40b and with 25% affordability the town gets to count all those numbers onto the town's subsidized housing inventory right so that's how you get those big jumps within that percentile right and so that's what we're trying to protect we said hey there's a pretty good permit we rote it and that's going to give us a pretty good bump towards that 10% goal I can't go back and speak to the town to say you should have done you know you can't live in the you can't live in the past right um but to

062the point is over the last 20 years there's been a couple 40 BS right um the last one that was um developed is um Ashen Woods which was I believe in about 2014 2015 if I'm wrong that was 66 units right um and since then there hasn't been any 40b development um but there's been other development in the town of Ashland right you know Ashland grew uh I can I you know by a fact of the Census Data Ashlin grew by 10% from 2010 to and that's adding units such as cus um Legacy not Legacy Farms excuse me um the lanterns development um and so there was many things that have happened um also ashin was also booming within subdivisions you know since the 2000s you know there's been a lot of subdivisions subdivisions at

063Ashland did not have any inclusion Ariz zoning built into them right so those were all market rate housing and so yes we are kind of trying to pick it up a little bit and that's what I that's how I can answer your question um but also we try to use that permit to our advantage but also we're trying to figure out a best way possible with all these numbers and all these possible situations to how to say hey we've take it into what Trish said take advantage of what we've built take advantage of what we've permitted and to minimize um what we think is minimizing the impacts on ash so getting five in one Pawn Street really is like a win-win it's a win-win exactly it's a win-win because it's a permanent project at 25%

064affordable right and then we add 120 units and this is just a kind of a theoretical thing but if cus which is 398 units that's built at 10% affordable right if that was built at 25% affordable the town of Ashen could have counted 398 units to subsidize ours in inventory we would be we would have a much higher percentage right now there's 41 units that are affordable within cus that are on our subsidized housing inventory that's a big difference um when you look at those numbers from that standpoint the only other question I have regards busing because I know the percentage where the um there was something that had said that where the units have to be within a half mile of the train station that for those units I was just reading some guidelines

065on the MTA communities it was saying that um additional MBTA Transportation would potentially be something that would come down the road to help assist people from those developments to getting to the train I was just curious if you had any comment on that I don't you know what I've been following this stuff for the last I I I'm going to tell you I'm going to be direct with everybody in this room and everybody online I've been following this stuff for four years and uh and I think as as a planners out there we're just trying to we're trying to do the best to get in compliance I think you know knowing the state and being on all the calls and doing all the homework I think that is that that whatever that verbiage was that

066you read I think the biggest thing I don't know where that will be in the future um but I I I really don't I think the biggest thing is for town they want towns to adopt zoning at this point okay thank you very much for you got it um I'm going to go online Miss Pam Mims has her hand up uh Pam Mims I am going to ask you to unmute thank you um pamm M 20 Rond way Ashlin I just have a couple questions um the first question I know you had mentioned about protecting the permits so I guess the question is if you're protecting the permits what would stop a developer from coming in and saying I want to utilize those permits and that would add to the housing so what what would

067stop them I think um well I mean Peter you can do do you want to answer that it's not um it's just that the permit has been granted so the the person the the developer can go forward with their project what we were saying is that um that that is that there is that is an area of town this would be 501 Pawn Street that is an area of town that that it has already have um an approved project for that so and someone holding that permit so if if housing is going to be developed there anyway we might as well use it for MBTA Community zoning because there's already going to be a project there that that that's all it meant okay and then the other well a couple other questions um you're counting

068in land that's permitted um does the state allow to use existing units and so you can count those existing units in or do they require new unit the state isn't interested in any existing units on any of the properties right it's as if they look at they're only looking at the land and and what we could allow to go there it does not matter if it's built or if it's version okay virgin Farmland so we don't need to count any units that are already there okay okay but but you can count those as you were mentioning because they're already there no we pretend they're not there we're we're kind we're just compare what we're doing and maybe this is the confus confusing part we're comparing what we need to be there or what the what

069we need to count in zoning as a theoretical problem and we're comparing it to what's already there or already permitted to see if they're about the same because remember we don't want to we don't we're trying not to affect change through the MBTA change is going to come through other things but we're trying not to affect it through this zoning so we're using it as a comparison to say okay Cirrus has this how can we make it so that we're using that land without um without burden overburdening Ashland with something else does that does that make sense okay okay so it's okay and then the last quick question is you know say and we'll go back to Pawn Street say a developer came in and said I'm going to develop that land and any other

070land that's necessary for this particular MBTA zoning um how is a town going to pay for the additional units that are added in I mean the resources are are stretched now and how's the town gonna pay for those existing resources or new resources what what do you mean how does that you mean um like um what do you mean what is the town going to pay for well the town's already stretch with certain resources like water and just basic resources so now if you're going to add in you're going to Lop on more units say a developer wanted to develop Pawn Street so now you're G to Lop on more units because there's going to be new units added here I mean it's great that you're going to try to use whatever you can use

071but we all know looking forward into the future there will be units that will be added the to is growing town so I look at it and say is the town going to have to increase the taxes to pay for those additional res in ter in terms of 501 Pawn Street there is an active approved project for 501 project for 501 Pawn Street that was approved and went through the planning took about a year to go through the planning board process and I think we approved that project two years ago right um so at that time we did look at Water and Sewer and all the other things for that project so in terms of our study we're assuming that kind of that project is built and so we're going to it's not we're going

072to count it towards mpta even though it's it's it's so Pam to your point like a developer has already come in and wanted to develop that land and put a project before the planning board and it went through the entire project and it was approved and they hold that permit they can break ground when they want to that's all that's all set and so when we're talking about what we allowed in the bylaw and the density the Strategic consideration was how do we make this not more favorable than what they already have there so as that there's not an incentive for them to sort of scrap everything that's already been done right right and so that's and that's what that's the Strategic consideration in all of what we've put and and what the working group

073has assigned on the densities and it's the same for anything that's already built right because it's much more it's much less likely that something that's already built they're going to tear down as Trisha has noted but the theory is always like okay well what let's say someone did just want to go crazy and tear down what's there let's make whatever the MBTA is own is not more favorable to them than what has what already exists and so that's what's been done in each of these Parcels if that makes sense I think what I'm just simply trying to point out is that um any additional units is going to tax the town resources and I look at the big picture who's how are we going to pay for this so that's all that's it's just a

074comment you don't have to answer but that's just my statement and what I'm saying so thank you Miss thank you I'm going to come here back into the room uh to the to the podium uh Mr Mark donon uh Mark uh I stated your name but can you please State your address marony 119 Main Street ashon I have two maybe three questions to ask about this first first question is how much did the state get involved to talk and Ashen to go for their guidelines in in what Essence Mark well through the guidelines that saying from the state to show that they got they are good for housing because there's a house insur they were saying what was the guidelines given to get the talk started well I think you know I think there was

075comments you know this goes back four years you know and and there was there was a draft comments the town of ashin submitted four years ago a letter like most communities um then H the department of of the the eohc which is the executive office of uh livable communities they issued the guidelines so Ashland is one of 151 communities within I would say Metro Boston that have had to use the same guidelines um in the same rules of the road to try to figure out how do you apply these to to two Ashland into any other community um and and so Ashland has been using the same rules in the road um the same guidelines as southb and hopkington and and and in in Framingham and in NAC um and we're also using the same

076um model um and and the model is another you know I would say huge Excel data document driven by data um that we've also had to Wrangle with um and so Ashen is doing doing uh using the same the same framework um that every other community is okay thank you um what about um has the state talk in in if in the state help the finance for Town budget have they talked about what's going to do to the property tax I don't I don't think we can forecast the future you know and and and look into to see what effects of of development is going to be on property taxes Mark um so so I don't think we've looked into that matter but that does the state say with MBT this NBA project did they

077say it's going to increase or decrease if it goes through I would say the state is stayed silent on that um and and they are not hinting and they're not going to go one way or the other I think the state from their standpoint is is ex they are this is a a law and and regulations that are asking communities to adopt zoning um they are not weighing into if a community if if a if a if a um excuse me a district or MBTA zon is going to negatively impact um a housing indoor or property taxes I just think the state has not taken their influence that far okay and this is the last one this comes as I asked this one the 50 a how many acres is the is this property going

078to be grandfather to have grandfather in the term and what terms grandfather what ter once they're going they're going around the states saying they got to have to have so many acres that is in that's for the community distance mhm okay and um how many acres is that right now that's on that's on their books so are you asking how many acres are within the half mile buffer of each train station how many acres is in the is in their regulation bylaws well the state doesn't have a total number of Acres right it applies to the town in certain ways and and so I don't know if I the data to to to answer that question mark um but the state is saying that each town in a minimum has to have has to have

079a minimum of 50 acres um in total and with a minimum density of 15 units per acre now for the town of Ashen because we're above we have to zone for the the 15% of the existing hot total hot total excuse me total housing unit count um we have to have a minim we you have to have that minimum of of 50 units okay from that I tried asking this before with the um as I was emailing earlier in the week about the zoning and stuff like that what does the structure building structure and footage have to do with this would you when you when you put a buildings on structure it's this is just zoning Market doesn't have any so the actual what the building is or the structure of the building isn't it

080yeah that it's it's not a part of this regulation and would still go through our normal planning board process just couldn't require special permit and all the building codes would have to be followed okay well now this is they want to put want to help put in multifam housing right correct those the structures correct so they have to go buy so some so much regulations on us on that property Lottery yes or no yes they go They're going to go follow the Ashen bylaws and then they're going to follow the State Building Code so the state saying through the property codes that's in this town to build they're going to understand that as they may not be enough and on the property sites what would happen then well the spreadsheet that I was talking about

081earlier takes into account all of the Ashlin bylaws and get they get put the Ashland bylaws gets puts into the spreadsheet which which says if the density we're putting there works right it goes through those calculations and if it works or it doesn't work so we've been doing that for the past year putting things within the state spreadsheet that was given to us to confirm that it works now until the state actually goes and checks it themselves we we don't know for sure right but we're fairly confident that that what we're doing checks all the boxes does that make sense I can say this Mark that using all the tools the regulations that the state has provided this plan that the town of Ashland has that we will that we are presenting to tonight having

082a public hearing on and that we present the front of town meeting fits the requirements in my professional eyes of of the regulations okay and this should be it this brings me back to the question I asked first how much does the state put into Ashland's designs for this for those reasons you know any questions we've reached out to the state um we've worked with our Town Council um who's doing this for many communities um you know we're we're doing our best to stay having open lines of communication with the state um and we believe the model that we have um with the with the five Parcels that we have with the total acreage and the total units meets the requirements of the state now it needs to be approved by the state and we'll

083get to that point in time um if approved that town meeting um and and so I would say you know we are we believe I believe that this is this will meet the qualifications of the state and very last comment would be that the state and some other towns have disagreed and tried to block it that that has occurred right I will not I'm not going to dance around that one but yes I think everyone in this room and you know we no one no one lives under a rock in 20 you know 2024 um I can tell you yes the town of Milton has been in the news for the last year and a half right um there was SJ there was Supreme Judicial Court hearings three weeks ago right um I did follow

084him as the town planner you know I I I listen to them you know some people you know would be uh wouldn't always admit to that but I did and uh they have a case you know but right now the law is the law right and we need to just see take it as as what it is on its word and uh we the committee represented the town feel like that we've created a plan that meets the the attributes of the law and it and it takes advantage of what ashon has developed and it's tried to you know hopefully will you know minimize any impacts but we feel this plan will um meet the law and that will allow us to continue to move forward this end my time thank you is uh the state

085with their legal pool in the state house will fight strongly to keep forth what they're going through now yeah I think I think Mark we need to move on but thank you for your questions so can that be answered I I'll sit down after um can that be no because affects what going to happen in the future maybe not here but it could affect the the state house thinking go to Mark I can't I I don't think any of us here at this table can speak for the legislature or the state house and I think that is that the question you ask nobody at this table has the answer to and I think the question is I think that the answer is time will tell um and I think all towns are in the same

086situation and I think all towns are trying to do the best they can and this town is going to find out either way how well they did thank you Mark okay all right thank you everybody for their for your patience I'm going to move to the next person with their hand raised online Ken Ken I'm going to ask you to unmute uh thank you very much and um I'll try to I'm just a little confused so I just want have a couple questions I want to pre express my appreciation for the work that the team has done with the creative efforts to roll in the projects and that have been developed and in process but my assumption is is that the original intent of whatever law was passed by Governor Baker was the intent was

087to actually create SP uh places that will be developed and so my question is with all the work that you've done um and at some point my assumption is that that the state or the NBA District or whoever is going to make those decisions could turn around and say open those lands for development and and they BAS basically are we're committing at at some point that that land could be developed maybe will be developed and and it's probably going to even though they follow our bylaws and so on I it appears that the actual decision process kind of like in the 40b cases the developers could go around the town and move that to to go forward am I incorrect in that assumption I I just was looking for Clarity on yeah it's hey hey

088Ken um it's it's important to remember that um that this is a zoning exercise and and um in fact most of the areas that we of the five areas most of the square footage that we're putting forward is already built there is already buildings on it that would need to be torn down in order to build something else and and these aren't small little Cottages that are there it's not a small neighborhood being being turned down torn down it would be tearing down major buildings which would be very expensive in order to put up another very expensive building which is part of the reason we did what we did to make that process as UNF financially viable as possible Right which the state allows us to do they are okay with that with us using

089what we already have so um so so I'm not does that answer your question not not quite because I think we've been able to I don't know exact trying to figure this out but if we had something like 50 or 60 Acres whatever the final calculation was and the buildings occupy half of that or something like that is there not a possibility they would come in and just say you have to completely you know allow people to build out the rest to meet the original intent I mean I'm just um you know we've heard about the 40b where the the the contract the Builder can go around the town in terms of what get happens and so and if the 40b is at a higher density rate you know do we end up seeing that

090you're the plan on the density is really you know potentially just going to be set aside if someone at the state or at the mvta district or wherever the decisions are made say you you have to open all that land that's not not currently been built on to to building and and I guess I'm looking at the cus plot it looks like about half of the plot is built but then there's about half that isn't so could that just be a state decision that that has to be you know to to turn it over to the contractors to go ahead and build when you're when you're talking when you're talking about the Cirrus plot that half has been built um the Cirrus and maybe it was confused using on the on the drawing that we

091were showing because there was a another area of color around Cirrus but the Cirrus area of the 28 Acres it is it is built it's built with buildings and parking lots and some low garages and pavement and and so it is built out yes is there's some areas probably of buffer and setbacks as there are on all of our properties yeah there are there are some setbacks and things like that but but but there is an acreage that there is an acreage that's just empty that the the surrounding acreage is not a part of this of the of Cirrus that we're looking at that was actually a that was actually a a parcel we decided not to use in MBTA and this just looking at the diagram it had a and d my assumption was

092a was serious and D was uh available or whatever empty B is so I think might the other note is that the state doesn't have the difference between 40b and NBTA zoning is that the 40b process you know has the town has very little involvement right the MBTA zoning law is still an Ashland zoning law like it there's no the state is not going to come in after we've P if we pass a set town meeting and the state agrees that it meets all of the parameters that they've set out um for the MB to meet the requirements of the law of the state law um once that happens the state's not no longer involved in anything that sort of gets built using that zoning it's the same as any of our other zoning so

093it would just follow all of the as Trisha said all the existing Ashlin bylaws um all and they would have to a developer would have to choose to use that zoning overlay the MBTA zoning overlay and so to the point sort of that we've said a couple times tonight is that the idea is that we're using Parcels that are already built and the density that we're including in the MBTA zoning law which is is the new the what we're proposing um to become compliant that's all strategically done the density that that would be proposed under that zoning is strategically done to make it not more advantageous than what's already there if that makes sense to disincentivize like tearing it down and starting again yeah okay I my assumption was it with that we were allocating

094as much of the built space as possible into the project overall meeting the requirements but that there were open spaces that uh were part of the acreage that you know could be up for I would say you know development and that that may be fine I'm just saying who makes that decision is that yeah that would be the that would be the developer that would make the decision that can say Okay um if I own Cirrus and the density that um that this MBTA zoning that we're proposing is higher than their current density up in s but they would have to decide okay you know can I where can I squeeze in that additional housing and parking while meeting all the other Ashen zoning bylaws and while accommodating all the residents that live there so

095is it is it possible is it possible that the owner of cus can move everyone out and fit some more stuff in there and then move everybody back in it's possible so um but again these were the choices that we made to try to choose things that were as unlikely as possible but what what the future says I I can't you know predict it perfectly all right well thank you for your answer thank you K thank you Ken uh with nobody's uh hand raised online I'm G to go to the present to the to the podium uh so please state your name and address hello my name is Melissa I live it thank you I second that thank you for all your hard work you did answer a big question of mine when I came

096out tonight was was this going to take up more Parcels I think that's what most people were worried about because we just went through a lot of construction so thank you for your consideration and keeping the impact low what I was curious about is what were the grants that the state was kind of holding over you guys to not you know allow ashin to have his funding for the town if this didn't come into compliance would you mind speaking to that that was my only question sure you know there's a list of Grants is on our website just so to just to make note uh we and Ashland have a whole website called the MBTA Community website all this information is on that website um a list of those grants are on that website um

097and I will say that um all the public forums that we held were actually videotaped and actually put online but with that said to answer your question the major grants that would be withheld or mass work grants um any um Mass municip excuse me Municipal vulnerability grants um any Economic Development grants um there's some really big items here big ticket items right um infrastructure grants um and so per se the town of ashon as we all know just went through a vital you know reconstruction of our downtown right that was done with a mass Works Grant right that would not have happened if we did not have if if this law was in place and if we did not have zoning to meet indoor qualify and so with that said those are the type of

098projects the type of grants that are us stake at this point okay see someone online you want to take them first yep uh Joan G Friday I'm gonna un ask you to unmute yes Jon G Friday ww Road um I'm on the historical commission but speaking as I'm an independent resident um I apologize my computer uh V video is not working um I I know you're tired of hearing from me but I'm tired of kind of tired of saying it too but um my feeling is if I don't try then I can't complain so um I I think this um this is in no way against the MBTA committee they've worked countless hours to try to come up with the best plan for Ashland um I preferred the last proposal personally that did not include

099the mill buildings I have a real worry about the mill buildings although that ship may have sailed if that falls through I worry about giving anybody additional impetus to do something um and I and I understand the overlay I'm not trying to make you go through that whole thing again but I it still is a concern to me um but my concern really is with the state the the law and the towns from not bonding baning together to fight this um I think it's it's inequitable um the law um I don't know if people understand but we're being punished for the density that we've already built um we built um 914 Apartments between 2010 and 2020 that are basically not counted if you subtract those from the 1124 then we should only have to build

100210 and it's it's you got a town south borrow next door which has more land mass and is only required to build to Zone I should say not not build but Zone I understand that zoned for 750 apartments and so I think right there there is a lawsuit that that this law is inequitable um I would like to see the towns do that um but I'm just that's probably um not going to happen um but we already are on a water bin and as um I think it was Miss MIM said um where will where will the water the schools and the resources come from and when we say that the town won't come back back the state won't come back and force us to do something else with some of this land they're already

101forcing us to do something with land we they didn't tell us this before they built before they built the MBTA station this was forced afterwards and they're holding us hostage with grants and I think it's just it it's it's appalling to me honestly um so those are my comments um I appreciate everything that the the um committee has done I truly do and I I know that you're trying to make it less of an impact on Ashlin and I really do appreciate that so thank you for my for listening thank you Joan hi Paula Parker for 15 Captain e Circle I appreciate all the work that you're doing I know it's not easy I spent 10 years on the pawn Street project working group um a noble Mission the pay stunk but it's a noble

102Mission and I'm happy to see that pawn street is coming to fruition I have a question Peter you mentioned that does this have to go to um a vote on the floor of at fall town meeting yes and what if it's voted against what happens then what if residents say we're giving we're giving the residents an opportunity the state's not giving residents an opportunity because this is a mandate I happen to agree with Joan and that it is quite Draconian and the punishment is like a mafia Style enforcement if you don't comply we will punish you that aside what happens if the residents of Ashlin say no we don't we're going to exercise our right to to democracy and we're going to vote no on this then what happens then then on December 31st and

103or you know December 31st as the ball comes dropping down in Time Square and we move into January 1st we fall we become a non-compliant community within the MBT regarding the m BTA communities and then you know we'll move forward I think that's what that's my direct answer and and that's what will happen Okay what will come from that time will tell I just wanted to know if residents did have a right to exerise their vote and that's what I wanted Town vot that's what I want to know I think everybody here wanted to know because resents do have the right to vote you know this this zoning article will be on town meeting that is going to be held on November 19th at the high school which is a Tuesday night um and yes

104this will be voted on um and if it doesn't carry majority vote then um then we will fall out of compliance as the uh as the ball drops on the New Year okay and so we if that does happen we will not be the only town right and so we will be in a category of non-compliant towns and um the the I I don't know what the future will hold in in that Essence uh but that's what will occur thank you another question um during a hearing um I believe it was with wind development the project didn't move forward but the owner of wind development mentioned that developers receive subsidies from the state for these kinds of projects is that accurate if it's accurate what is the percentage that a developer would receive on a

105large project from the state I do not know okay to tell you the truth so uh is that fo you is that Foya information do we know typically no it's not Foya no you know I do not know when the development comes you know I do not know nor does is a part of the Plenty board application to know and understand the subsidies that one gets from the state okay you know because I do not know in my Essence my question would be to the developer right is there financing coming through the state are they going to the state uhlc are they going to the you know Mass development or Mass housing excuse me right um quasi public private development um I don't know where those mortgages are coming I don't know whether the construction

106that that's not really part of what the planning board overview oversees within that application process right I understand that's not your purview I thought with your expertise you might have some knowledge because when he mentioned it it just it it it Rose a question in my mind so I'm not going to waste time on that particular question last question is that pawn Street already has the uh Pawn Street mixed use overlay District correct does this zoning overlay that so there are three layers so there's as of right zoning there's the pawn Street mixed juice overlay and now there's the MBTA communities zoning is it now three layers that the developer would yeah okay yeah it's three layers yes it's three layers it's almost and it happens within zoning you know we're not the this this

107kind of moves forward but yes it's almost three layers makes it incredibly complex zoning is a complex thing Paula and and and that's why and that's why I just I have to say Zoning for a town is the last lever of control for the residents to have a say in terms of what goes on what's built I understand that when somebody purchas purchases the land they have their rights I get that whole thing I've advocated for developers I've advocated for residents I just have to say I agree with Joan that I think that the Mandate is Draconian and I think I think a lot of people feel like they're they're losing their control because they're losing that lever and the only lever they have left now is town hall and again I appreciate everything all

108of you have done I know it's not easy and I know it can be contentious I just have to say that and thank you all for everything that you do thank you Paula please yeah hello Lorraine dorsy from 30 of7 Captain Circle so I just wanted to know whether you think it's the the reason that all these uh towns along uh the the the railroad have have this mandate on them do they think that all this new housing all these people are going to be taking the train into Boston every day I mean is that why they're doing because I'm sure there're people in whan and Sudbury and Sherburn and other towns that also they drive into into Boston but so should they be putting shouldn't they have some uh in mandate to improve their

109housing too yeah so all those communities are part of the um part of what needs to be done so are they do they have a mandate about how many housing they how much housing they have to add how many units mhm yeah Sherburn and whand and yep is it similar to ours yeah so I can show you this map right here bring it up so this is the state's MBTA communities map you can see right here yeah and and it list NBTA communities Community categories um here we are in Ashland we are a commuter rail Community we house a a commuter rail stop Framingham NAC Welsley Needum denim Westwood um I'll read a few uh selfbow westbo these are all commuter rails adjacent commun adjacent small town yeah but all what happens to all the

110ones in the yellow all in the yellow yeah they're called an adjacent community and what are they they have a mandate similar yep I didn't know that yep well I feel better about that yeah every every one of these communities right that's on this map up here that you can see is dealing with the same matters that we are dealing with here in Ashland and across the board okay thank you for clarifying that thank you for your work yeah no problem thank you any other questions or comments from the audience or online here we have good evening everyone my name is Peter D I'm believe on Al Trail nearer to Pawn Street and we're talking about units 1,24 units how many people uh in your mind will assemble those units well we don't iage what

111I couldn't give you yeah I couldn't give you an an estimate on that I don't know what what size these units are and it's not my expertise to say that what what we have to keep remembering is that for a lot of those units in a lot of those locations the people are already here or the buildings are already here right like for Cirrus it's already built right so okay Sirus is BU Pond is not built and some other area is not built as well and never in your mind come questions how many people we add to Ashland Community well you have to remember that the Mandate of the working group and to per and to create the bylaw is about our mandate was create a plan create a bylaw that would allow Ashlin to

112be compliant with the state law um with the and we put on it ourselves with the least impact to Ashland that was our mandate right that's what we work to achieve so did we try to figure out exactly how many people that might bring in no you know because that wasn't you know hopefully you know maybe none right there might not be a single project that ever gets built under MBTA zoning yeah but we we should go from the worst condition not from the best condition so we need to be prepare and my question is if those, 124 units all of them are affordable units no no how many percentage is there affordable Unit 10 10% correct yep okay thank you yep hi uh 375 America B I just have a comment that uh you

113built already practically occupied uh house on H chest Street and it is um 174 units uh two bedrooms one bedrooms they Reserve parking space for two cars per unit couple of days ago I had to go to the route 9 and usually it's 5 7 minutes it's took me 40 minutes to be there because traffic was terrible I I left house at 8 a.m. and bumper to bumper Route 135 and CH Street was practically empty street now it is stay in line to take right turn to 1235 when you build some new buildings do you think about traffic or just we have to put the building and do what is look what is happened so to answer your question when a new building does come in and application is in front of the planing board

114100% yes this board looks at traffic typically within any project that gets built there are pro there are traffic reports there's traffic counts those are peer reviewed by a professional engineer within this matter of the mbtk communities we didn't you know looking at traffic um we did not take we that's not part of the process right and it's not part of what we had to do but I would say if a project does come in right 100% I can tell you that traffic is looked at it's analyzed and it's a major topic of disc discussion but it didn't help it in 100 Chestnut Street 100 Chestnut Street was there was a traffic study 100 Chestnut Street in that development from Howard faford was outlined back in 2001 with Mr Howard fa in the town of

115ashon when was I I was still in high school in 2001 so I cannot speak to that I was here you were here I understand that I was here and I was told the traffic no no traffic because it was epidemic period of time I understand traffic wasn't here and and and to talk about 100 Chestnut Street is um I'm happy to do talk about 100 Chestnut Street um till the leaves fall off the trees right um please come in and and sit with me during the day and I'll explain everything this is already building built it's already built what about others places where you want to Bu from from from every every every development right that is comes into the town of Ashley traffic is looked at um 100 Chestnut Street was looked at

116and we did the best we could as the planning board um dealing with the facts that we have in in in everything that kind of surrounded that project um but I will tell you right now traffic is always analyzed thank you I I think it's important to remember um that um this whole MBTA communities law came about because we are so the state not just Ashen the state is so short of housing right it's and it's not just actually not the state it's across the United States right starting in the housing crisis of 20062 2008 right when when housing wasn't built and obviously everyone has seen that on the news in for for a while now and in and in every news Outlet right and we're also seeing it amongst ourselves and our friends and

117neighbors like um you know housing prices are Skyhigh rental prices are Skyhigh because there's not housing right young couples can't find a house there's nothing to buy right so so the answer from the state not from us from the state is we need more housing housing housing housing to bring housing prices down to to provide houses for for everybody right so so these these laws then go on into place because the first thing communities do is build walls like oh you can't build here you can't build there no multif family here not here right and pretty soon there's no place you can't build housing anywhere CU every Community wants to do that right we want to put up walls and and save ashin for just the people who are already here right and everybody wants

118to do that and so there's no housing and so I think that's what starts to make and and I haven't been involved with the state I don't know anything about that but that's what makes these laws start to come into effect that almost that everybody has to do their everybody has to do their share all these towns have to do their share right may not like like it but it's like our share and the same thing about 4vs you know it's like we don't we don't like them they go out of our control even on the planning board right as as hard as we work to try to to make buildings that are good it's out of our control but it's again it's a means for the state to say towns you can't build a

119wall around your little town and and not build any housing when you live in a state you know we we all live in the state so um so we're on the tail end of that we don't have control over any of that we don't have control over 40 BS we don't have control over what the state does all we were trying to do in our little four-person committee that reported back to the planning board and reported back to the select board because remember there's the planning office and then there was one member from each planning board and select board working through this we were trying to work through a solution not about the 40 BS but about the MBTA community that would put us in compliance so that we could continue to get those grants

120but hopefully our intention was to have hopefully no to very little effect on ash we're hoping to that our regulations here aren't very appealing to any developer and they would take a different route than this one because our underlying zoning in some cases already allows more than this in other cases the site's already built you know there's already something on it and so it's yes you see get things getting torn down all the time but generally not it's not a Valley Farm you know Community facility it's not no one's tearing down Cirrus and and putting something else up so it was very intentional can we predict the future might someone come and tear it down service I guess so but we're we're putting our money on that that is probably in like an unlikely scenario

121and even if they do they're not going to be able to build too much more than what they already had right that was our intent hoping that as more housing comes to Ashland and it will I.E the 40 BS the things start to come out of the comprehensive plan as to where that housing should go what it should be like how we start to control it how we start to build the infrastructure structure that we need to to make that happen right we wanted that bigger picture level of thinking to come out of that bigger drive and to and to to form this bylaw to kind of get us through without losing funding without losing accessibility to Grants without putting in a lawsuit which is might be expensive for the town I don't know how

122that works um that again that's not our that part of it not it's it's it's not our purview it's not what I was asked to do so um I can't really comment on it but hopefully that that that's the way I see it from my perspective um happy to have any again and that's my perspective not not of my board but my personal perspective please sorry what we're going to have to leave but is most of this housing going to be rental housing so it does not say within the state get parameters it doesn't have to be rental it could be home ownership but does not pertain would it most likely be rental I would probably bet so the ones on the board now are they mostly going to be rentals yes because that doesn't

123give young people any Equity that doesn't give them a real start uh you know we we have like nine grandchildren and some of them are look they can't afford to buy and they're spending all this money on rent uh so it would be nice to have small places that they can buy and build equity so that that's that was just my I I I do not disagree totally agree okay thank you I think from the perspective of just sort of continuing on what Trisha was saying you know we might not all agree with the actual text of the law that was passed and signed by Governor Baker five four or five years ago I think we're making a the committee has gone to Great Lengths to make a cost benefit sort of um analys right

124an analysis to say like if we whatever proposal we put forth at town meeting the potential cost to Ashland is because so many of it's are so many things are already built right sarus is built it's a huge part of this proposal it's rentals but it's there um the to Trish's point the idea of tearing that down and there's not really a lot of incentive to tear that down and build something else under the way this the zoning our proposal would work um I think the C the potential cost of losing these grants is potentially quite high right and so whether we agree with the law or not or the the background of the law I think is neither here nor there I think what we're all deciding is whether not the what the proposal

125we're putting forth for Ashland what the cost benefit of that is and there's a cost you know of to the question around what happens you know if we vote that down at town meeting if we become non-compliant on December 31st you know we don't know what that looks like from the state but we do know that they in the in the text of the law those grants those Mass work grants are are sort of up for um we could lose them and that and we're thinking about that cost benefit we're saying okay well what could we lose if we pass it and I think the committee's whole to Trish's point the committee's whole theory has been let's keep the M the impact of this to a minimum right a community could go and Zone 50

126undeveloped acres for this law and they would be facing you know a thousand new rental units we aren't in that situation in the way that we've structured this proposal right um and that was very intentional and I I just I would like to say as as a resident and a member of the planning board I am really grateful for you and the committee's work in that way okay so it seems that the people that are going to really benefit from this are the people that are building these units and abely absolutely so it's hard to in if you know we have to have a goal to PR to really have affordable housing and that can lead to home ownership you know that's the only way people will build wealth well it's true but it's hard

127to um you know even building unless you're building condos which is apartments that are owned right unless you're building there's no you know that that does take virgin land to make little neighborhoods with you everyone having a little house with a little yard we we do have to have open land that to use up for housing so that's and and you need a and you need a lot of it because it houses in little yards take up a lot of space so it's it's a um you know which one is better like I I don't I don't know I but I I totally understand what you're saying yeah yeah okay thank you good night hey Michael kman 141 Al Trail uh I understand that uh after if this project will go live uh the number

128of units will be increased in nland number of citizen of asland will be increased what do you think about um fire department medical assistance police assistance number of people going going up so it also should be taken care of is there any sorts of this I would just say naturally is as the population grows so do the so is the police force so is the fire force right by itself yeah we all pay taxes yeah and it's called in it's New Growth up yes it should it should is it part of the plan I understand that you cannot plan for traffic until it's actually built I think that's part of the comprehensive plan what's going on right here is just looking at the zoning and what was tasked for us to do by the state

129law and that's what we're trying to do okay so it's limited only to one layer of Zan correct okay and again when when you're by the way thank you for great job you're doing thank you and and just to to note again with the things like because we have those questions too well what about the water what about um what about schools what about but every single community that Peter is showing on that map they're all asking the exact same question what about their water supply what about their schools right so all the communities are asking that question yet we still need housing right how do we answer that question so yeah just you know and this is a State website I'm happy to show it to you you know but these are all the

130communities that have to go through it you know so if you want to cherry pick um any Community that's around here um you can kind of go on and and really kind of go through it I'm still stuck at B I was looking to get to h i I apologize yeah it's cities it's not small but it's everybody it's it's every one of these communities okay uh it's hopkington it's Holliston it's West Barrow and it's southb U it's all the abiding towns and and in including Sherborn and n and framing him you know how many are non at this point not off the top of my head um there was a wave of communities that were um were approved last uh I would say annual town meeting session I know there's a number of communities

131that have passed it and or or teed up or slated to to go in front of their Town meetings uh I know I know uh need them past theirs um IP switch the other night did not um I know you know there there's other community ities uh that do not know you know I spoke to the planner over in hopkington the other day you know they are ready to go I thought I heard your holla oh okay sorry um I talked to the planner the other day in hopkington you know they have a plan they're going to move forward with um but they have it slated that they on their town meeting this this upcoming fall MH hi it's Melissa again 173 Leland Farm uh just about the offsetting cost is are the um the

132grants that you're hoping to keep online for Ashlin are they usually slated to try to help keep down the cost of infrastructure and taxes like with those grants help keep us from having a jump in tax that's probably something would be good to to to consider yeah I think that's one thing to consider I think you know the grant it's it's a large portion season towns are still trying to figure out you know how it would how it's financially going to affect them if it doesn't pass um I a zoner I'm a planner I am I deal with the zoning um you know we can I'm not the finance expert um how would say but um the the grants that are available uh they make towns you know obviously yes do they keep taxes lower

133yes because if a town wants to do something right and it doesn't want to take it out of its general fund and it goes out and gets a grant to have it paid for right then that means we're not pulling it off our general fund raising our taxes did the last um project that we had downtown all all all of that that just happened um the the could you speak to that as an example did the grants that you had for that keep the taxes from going up in I can say this the project that is in the downtown would not have happened without the grants did it keep our taxes down yes okay because we would have not we you know you're looking at that this project in the downtown is about a $13

134million project give or take right we've received $8 million in Grants give or take to help pay for that what you see in the downtown is is is not cheap right um and I think it looks really good right so I am proud to work for a town that has done this in their downtown and it's not done yet the polls still need to come down there's still a lot of work to do a lot of polls in the middle of the sidewalk there is a lot of polls in the middle of the sidewalk right um but yeah that's going to be done in time right and that's the next step but I that this project wouldn't have been done without getting Mass Works money um here in our downtown okay thank you any uh

135any other comments in the room or online so um so Peter correct me if I if I'm wrong um but so between now and town meeting we the planning board has a meeting tonight and we have a meeting in two weeks well with no November something correct November something it's November 14th is our next meeting so before that time the planning board needs to take a vote to either support or not support the bylaw as written right that is that is online the bylaw as written um before it goes to town meeting that is correct so um we can take that vote tonight as a board we can wait and um continue the public hearing and have a second public Hearing in November at that time we will have to close and and vote there

136will be our only other opportunity before town meeting so I'm just trying to get Now comments from the board about after the discussion tonight um and uh obviously we're still missing one member um what approach do we want to take um I feel like keeping it open because I think I I really appreciate the room full because people came to be thoughtful and listen and they're evaluating their vote right so having it open gives us one more chance for people to ask questions and some of them are aren't under our purview but I think that they still need to be asked and this is one more place that we're at least willing to engage so I I would um hope that we would keep the hearing open and have it on our next meeting other

137comments do we have time for that yes 14th is our board meeting yep the 14th is going to be our board meeting the the the town meeting will be the following Tuesday um but you know what is required by the the law is for the planning board to take a vote and to report back to town meeting and so whatever way the vote is I fully will anticipate and be prepared um um working with Trisha to have you know comments um developed by this board um for town meeting is or any is any well we know Amanda may not be joining us for that meeting it um um is every what other people's schedules look like for November 14th like this is 5 days before town meeting because the other option is that we because

138I'm I'm wondering about um okay let me ask that question first about schedules for November 14th I would plan on being here we don't know for Anna obviously sometimes her schedule changes quickly yeah I would say we don't but she's also careful to she makes a commitment to come I mean same with me something could happen that's why I'm saying I'm planning but I think that we would probably know if she knew she wasn't coming we're striving to to get a vote everybody on the table right um we just need theum I assume I'm sorry can you say again Marcel I I think we are striving to get every every member of the board to vote right is it fine somebody's we just have to have I think um legally for the process we have

139to take a vote before town meeting um I think um so that has to be done it and we'll need a quorum for that we need at least three right to um and um what concerns me a little bit is I don't if we continue this to the 14th and say um I don't see why we wouldn't have a quorum but say we wouldn't have a quorum would we then continued it until the the 15th or you know just some quick things so we can get it yeah you would continue it until you can you can continue it up until the Monday before um you know it's it's a little tricky because we have to keep announcing the meeting well I don't want then you're putting out notices you know so if I couldn't get

140if if and I'm Excuse me I'm going to pull out my phone um but theoretically if you couldn't get a quorum on the 14th on the 14th you have to post a meeting for the 18th which is the day before town meeting to get it in to get a vote correct yeah so so and then and one more thing is that so there is also a possibility of us kind of and and we haven't discussed which we we need discussed but if we want to take a vote tonight we can still have a forum for questions and understanding and everything still on the 14th we can still have that Forum which then continues to the because this goes to town meeting whether in whether we in favor it of it or not that's correct right

141so whether we vote for or against it goes to town meeting right that's correct I there's no harm in taking the votes and I be sure that we have the time to do I agree and if we want the public engagement we can always keep it on the agenda as a forum rather than a public hearing yeah it will just not be a public hearing but we can let people talk it's a I would need I call the public forum yeah for informational session on the agenda and then keep things moving I think that's a nice compromise if there's Quorum tonight CU it feels risky it's a win-win you need ask in your discussion uh you are free to stay but you can walk out on us at any time is any one of you

142will change their mind in one week or two weeks what you already have in your mind that's a good comment I um thank you so I guess I guess maybe you should run for planning board um so I I mean I guess the question goes out to the board I mean I know how I obviously I'm voting if people feel confident if if they're we can go ahead and do that um I'm a little leery about the tight deadline the five days before makes me a little nervous and for what reason I don't see any reason why to put us in the predicament that something goes wrong nothing's going to change and we keep the conversation open for anybody that wants to ask questions so there's no loss so I I would be in favor

143of voting T I feel the same to that's why I asked you the right at the beginning it's November 14 too close for that I am good to vote if you okay I know you would rather wait but I mean it that's fine okay all right is um so I'll take one last call if there's any question questions from the audience any public comment or or online Chris kishka live in B one Circle uh looking at the proposal you know it talks about the subd districts and it says it falls like a Falls in uh the rail Transit District but the map and that coloring to show that it overlays cious as built like is that part of this I I didn't see where that's part of this and that and would that trip up

144people in town meeting thinking all of the rail Transit District say gets this gets this overlay we'll we'll have I can tell you we'll have clearer Maps if that's it if that's tripping up you um I'll we'll have clearer maps for people to review at to meeting um but um like it was stated today it's more of a layer um and it is not resoning the the whole District um but um I myself will will make sure that there's better maps for the public to view so there's no misunderstanding than thank you yep thank you uh M Jo G Friday uh I'm going to ask you to unmute first I want to apologize I thought I was muted when I when I thought I heard something heard my husband follow call it and he was

145had any a problem but anyway um I I did have just one clarification um and that's the the density of the yellow areas um lady that asked about it those are those are that separate they're a separate District though than the mvta district right and and they are a different density is that correct um I'm not sure about the yellow areas is was that on the the slide presentation that you're talking about um sorry the town the town map right so the yellow areas was that but was that on the slide presentation where I was showing the five areas no okay the the the proposed on the the the state law okay um oh one minute oh we're talking about the state stuff yes okay right here yes uhhuh okay so the the green the

146green is the real MB MBTA towns and the others are lesser correct so so the the the dark green which Ashland is that is considered a a community excuse me a um commuter rail Community we host a train station it's on Pleasant Street um hopkington does not own their own train indoor host I'm going to say MBTA training station and then they become what's known as an adjacent Community okay and then you have Sherborne and Dover which is an adjac jent small community Dober and Sherburn do not host their own MBTA um station and I believe their population and and don't quote me on this I believe their population is lower than 7 a half thousand people which is always a threshold within between large and small town so if you have a population lower

147than 7 and a half thousand people um and I may have my numbers mixed up um and you are not a host Community then you into the adjacent small town category each of those small town categories have a different percentile of units that you have to zone for so excuse me oh no I was on the right thing um so then this is all State website if you come back down here and I'm just going to see if I can go to Sherborn so they all have requirements under the law they're just different thresholds correct so their unit capacity is 5% so if you're a small adjacent town you have to zone for 5% um of your housing unit total if you come over to hopkington so hopkington is it a adjacent Community just which

148is interesting because they're within like 100 yards of over an NBTA station basically yep but they're not technically and talk not technically an MBTA town so here their land minimum is is is 50 and their their minimum um multi family housing capacity so they have to zone for 750 units that is 15 units per acre uh with a minimum of 50 units um that's what hopkington has to do they have a total of 6,645 houses now if you come to Ashland sorry Ashen you can see we have to account for 15 because we are a commuter rail and so right now to 10 2020 census numbers we have 7,495 year round housing units as part of our community right okay yep so the the town that that I mentioned earlier was um South borrow which

149is a Comm is an mbj community and they only have to zone for 750 just a comment that um one other one other question um the 10% did you did I hear you say that you can that NBTA requires 10% affordable so 10% so so there is there is under the npta law there is no affordable however all communities are are allowed to put in a uh a minimum amount of 10% um with in in in fact that would if if if built that's going to keep Pace with the Shi numbers okay that's good okay and but there's no senior housing allow is it not allowed as part yeah it's not allowed as part of the MBTA district there can be no age limitations indor family limitations and the reason for that is because they're

150trying to build or they're trying to remove restrictions that are making it hard for families to find housing so saying things like you know having age restrictions or saying um you know that you can't have um um this number of folks in the housing or you can't have this number of bedrooms Etc like all of those restrictions can't be there because they're trying to create housing that families can access 100% yep no you nailed it I I would argue that I'm a senior and I I am a family but that's but I'm sorry I'm sorry I I understand that that they don't that I understand that they wouldn't mandate it but I don't understand why they don't allow it I guess that's the that's the difference and and they don't also do they allow us

151to set aside so many for Ashlin residents so uh that's a great question uh and I do not have the answer to that okay that would be that would be a good thing to add if we can do it but okay all right thank you thank you again for all your hard work I I I truly do appreciate that I do thank you okay so one another hand up online that is Helen Nicole Helen Nicole I'm going to ask you to unmute hi um yeah I just have one quick question Helen Nicole for Elliot Circle so I I just was wondering uh when all these 4bs go in and the density in in the town goes up does that mean that these numbers that are required for us for our unit numbers will for the

152MBTA will those also increase at the same time to my knowledge it just Curr time no however I cannot predict the future uh and there's no crystal ball every state every town that's dealing with MBTA communities um is dealing with the current numbers of 2020 I've actually asked that question to the state and there's been no answer to that question uh will this change with the new census that would come out in 2030 um it may you know and then every town will have to re-register however nobody has crossed that bridge no one is has answered that question cuz I don't think anyone has really kind of gone that far I think at this point we're still at square one where communities are trying to adopt the bylaw to meet the um to meet the

153the law um as drafted okay thank you thank you Kim lantro 79 hildale Road super super quick just following up on what you had just said about how if I understand what you were saying about um is it the MBTA that can't mandate how many people are in an apartment and like you were saying is that who you were saying can't cap how many people can be in there because they're trying to create housing and if it's not under that mandate which board does regulate as far as how many people can live within so many square feet of any any apartment like why my point being is like can you fit 12 people in a two bedom apartment I'm just curious I think there's State occupancy laws and everything that we talked about how you

154would still have to follow all of those rules you follow all the town bylaws what there's what the purpose of the law was when when we sort of went through that original first slide where we said you know it can't be age restricted it can't say it can't be multif family housing those sorts of things they're trying to remove some of the barriers that sometimes go up that prevent EX um housing that anybody can access and that's what it is so they but you would still to our Point earlier have to follow all building codes all Town bylaws all occupancy rules all of those things about you you can't cram their there are lot regulations and and things on the books that say you can't put 15 people into I guess that was my question

155was who does regulate that so that you know because sometimes in the wording it sounds like the town bylaws are what goes by and sometimes it sounds like like no it's the MBTA laws that supersede it's it gets confusing sometimes hearing who sort of gets whose regulations are first remain existing it's just that you can't in as part of the Zoning for the MBTA zoning rules you can't add some of those Hur some of those um restrictions sure yeah it was just a capacity numers thing I was curious about thank you you're welcome right seeing saying no one in line and no hands raised online moving slowly in case someone gets up so what we what we need to do first is to um uh make a motion to close the public hearing I make

156a motion to close the public hearing for the 2024 special town meeting zoning article and is there a second a second all right uh roll call oh any discussion on closing the meeting or not closing the meeting okay roll call vote Marcel I Katherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall I um so if there is no other discussion um we can move to a motion the motion would be to approve is that right to recommend okay the motion would be to recommend the article um the recommend the article for a town meeting um with a positive with the positive vote in support it's a motion it excuse me it's getting late it's a to to support the the the bylaw as drafted um for town meeting I will unless anyone else I will make a motion

157that the planning board um support the bylaw as drafted for the MBT ta um communities law and a second uh roll call vote de Marcel I Katherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall I so um what this does from here we will on our November 14th meeting we will keep a space open for any further questions discussion um the bylaw as it is written even here today isn't in our ability to change any modifications minor only minor modifications would be allowed at this time would have to take place on the town hall Flo or town meeting floor um so you you can find the B if you haven't already in its exact language on the website and um we hope that you are all at town meeting because you're probably now amongst the most knowledgeable people

158about this subject so thank you for attending thank you Trish can I put um can I put a plugin for can I put a plugin for people to sign up for notices about that planning board that they can get our general business on yeah I'm thank you for coming everybody much more exciting when people are here thank you yeah I think the only issue like Kate is that the notice that you would send out would be online email the same means by which people maybe have a hard time if they're if they're getting information from the paper which is why they came here or maybe it's just because it was the opening of the public hearing I'm not sure that'd be it'd be oh yeah so it's definitely the hearing but I think the point

159is zoning is important and people don't know until they see that and once the comprehensive plan is done presumably there will be zoning changes right they're not part of the comprehensive plan and we need those people so we have to figure out how to get them like well we'll have to think about more about putting things in the paper I guess you know like with a whole list of meetings or you know whatever um but I think that's a valid that's a valid point um so I do think can I just make a t followup that um there's prob should be some more prep work before town meeting like an FAQ sheet definitely I got I have some notes like I think just lining up those areas the density um like but simple simple visuals

160like what's already built like that's there um frankly frankly um you know we we had talked about yep we're gonna have to go through that slide presentation for town meeting given the forums we've had and the multiple listings we've had of planning board and select board disc discussing this issue I I I had no idea so many people would come to this meeting I just I maybe I just wasn't thinking about it properly the room was full yeah so there people standing with the empty chairs so so that's why we scrambled a little bit with the you I had told hey Peter bring that pres the last presentation we did so that we can use that if needed but I actually didn't think that I'd be needing it so that's amazing so I think I

161think it was great but it also was great to make sure we're prepared to meeting because I think without some more stuff yeah no believe me I have prepared for town meeting a number of times so we will be doing our homework I think even some of the questions that aren't as relevant like the taxes the service traffic like we we can think of a Kind polite way to put them on there because those were some of they weren't the distraction people but like is this going to affect my taxes like that that law doesn't and there are unknowns right we can be honest but like I feel like the have to be precise though because the Pres going around the purview of that the specific task can model the the presentation has to be

162very precise it can't go into those neighborhoods but you can have you can have a a frequently asked questions sheet and we did this before the zoning changes in 2021 we had a whole packet of information that helped to explain those zoning changes better that people could read on their own even though we could we didn't have time or authority to go through all of that you know actually on the floor I again I think you for sure and I also like I don't know if this is allowed in the presentation but I do think an early slide on what this plot is what it isn't yeah would be totally totally agree I think it's just that again I I take responsibility for that like we but but typically we have we have done that

163we've had these introductions and I'm like oh my God these people have heard this how many times yes and it was a completely different audience and I I that is totally fair does um I'm not trying to I'm just watching what happened to be successful at town meeting help but I think maybe even some like pictures can we put up a picture of Sears because people like I didn't actually know where it was which means they don't know what it looks like I completely agree and I think that to to contextualize yeah so much of the question and so much of the conversation was around well we're going to build you know these 12200 units and everything and and just sort of again remembering that it's zoning it's not a mandate to build and our

164whole strategy is that there is on the majority of these Parcels something there or something permanent to be able to show what's there I think is helpful like no one's going to tear down it would be very unlikely for someone to tear Never Say Never but never we we're trying to that would be a surprise yeah I I think that I think it's a good idea and we'll have the recording obviously to go back through and like you said K capture the questions how we can kind of summarize over this how we can have the right Graphics because that question surprised me too about where you know what's srus you know where is that or even the question about the busing like there might be some communities where you really need but like understanding exactly

165how proximate A and E are to all the train yeah like you couldn't you wouldn't take a bus from oh no I think was church I took that she was looking for are we going to get some extra services for this like for our community not about a bus train I I think that's I I might have misunderstood can we add the graphics and your first slide like together like the radius that you have in slide 10 should probably come right up front so connect your parameters and the graphics and we definitely should make sure we have the right map because there was like f and all that which is not here it was hard to read too so it was it was so let's make sure that we have the right map that's and

166going back to those questions is it possible to document those questions so that somebody can read it and not ask that question on the DAT well that's that would be the frequently Asked question we can Target for can we target for next planning board meeting which is close to to meeting but still ahead and try to get that on the website yeah well I was going to say and and yes I think that but um I think also we can Target for the 14th when oh there might be that that that we have the presentation that we're going to use at town meeting we can practice which we know it falls to you but I mean I think you just stepped up no I think you did a great job I'm not trying to be

167critical I'm trying to be helpful to present this in a way that makes it like I very much appreciate the people making it clear they get to vote on this and I will stick to that right but our job is to present it in a way to make it clear and you know what you you did something that was very effective I thought I I I thought there's so many details on this conversation it's very easy to get lost and the maps and the colors and the these and the numbers but when you when you started explaining Trisha that what what was the what we were task with doing from the state and what was the the the vision the and the purview of this effort that should be clear the first thing you said

168because because then then people people understand okay we were not tasked with doing this we're not building the buildings what we are tasked is to comply with the minimum amount of pain for the town right and we did it based on these two or three premises and now we're going to explain the details of it but that has to be said first yeah I think um I think definitely we can use that meeting on the 14th to have a little bit of a dry run of our documentation of I because I think it having more sets of eyes would be great we can have a test audience whoever is here to see if it is understood better you know and more clear and I just feel a little uh boy this you know Don't Judge

169Me by this this foot forward because I was just totally I no you did great I don't I just felt totally unprepared because you did great no I I do not take it at all I just want to be helpful like if there's something I can do help with what I'm talking about I will help I'm not trying to just magically say make it happen I just like there's a bunch of stuff I think could make make it go smoother even if you need a like a working session and even if it's on Zoom we can just kind of all come on one hour or something and D up if you want to go through the order we can do that have to wait till 14th the 40b response like I'm I'm happy I no

170one will believe me but I am going to be bored in the next two weeks so you can use um and I think yeah we're not listening to you there only couple of questions which I think people are not clear on the built and unbuilt section and I think that's whatt the pictures if we put a picture of Sirus though like seriously that's G to that's going to make and he put put a picture of the um the senior complex yeah yeah yeah no I think it's the clarity of buil and that kept coming up if we even solve that can I just I'm going to stop I I know this a great conversation but I think we just have a couple more things on our agenda and I know the attorney for 501 Pawn

171Street is still here so um I was wondering because I didn't so just as to make a note looking at item number five um 100 chest Street which which is going to the um signage at the Asher um the developer he was in the room Roy mcdal saw him tonight he he just stated that he had something came up so he just wanted to kind of asked and he emailed me just to move that out to our next meeting so take home the the the pictures look at the the the the the the look at what they're proposing uh and that's that however that's for the signage that's for 100 chest 100 chest Street there's no public hearing on that so I'm just going to move that agenda item to the 14th okay I just

172want to make a note that we're jumping to um agenda item number six which is 501 Pawn Street and tonight Mark I want to greatly thank you for your patience I know that was a long public hearing um but it was important one here for the town of Ashland um regarding the NBTA zoning uh so with that said I just want to set the table a little bit Mr Mark kblack he is um representing the development of 501 Pawn Street um and it is uh that was a the developer was tras development um and according to the permit which is special condition number 16 um regarding the site plan approval and the special permits we're due to laps and are due to to Laps on o excuse me December 8th of 2022 excuse me I'm

173getting a little ahead of myself according to the to special condition 16 it was two years the this the decision was going to lapse two years from the date of the approval the date of the approval is December 8th 2022 thus the date the permit lapses is December 8th 2024 for the record um we did receive a letter and and that is presented in front of everyone tonight uh within their packets that they well Mr Mark attorney kobac um acting as the agent for 501 Pawn Street TR development is requesting an extension to that permit um and from that point on Mark I'm going after you know as an introduction uh to your request um do you want to please step forward and give the board update on what's going on um and and how

174things are going out at 501 Pawn Street I just allowed you to unmute yourself I'm sorry about that yes good evening I'll be quick uh there has been a delay on this project as you know uh in terms of vertical construction but we have done a number of things the mass do permit for the curb Cuts was issued in June June of 2023 the uh curbing uh work is underway the site has been stabilized the U material that was on the site from the former faford ownership has been removed and I think most importantly for the board the off-site sewer improvements that were a condition of the special permit have been have been performed we've also been uh involved in construction drawings and I would say the delay is mostly attributable to financial issues we

175all know know and have heard about interest rates over the last two years or so uh so the request for the extension is to keep the project um in line and viable and after hearing the discussion tonight I see it's also an important part of your planning with respect to the MBTA bylaw thank you um any questions just one um because I was curious about the delay what is the expectation now that whatever interest rates probably we know where they are I I don't know is is there any expectation on at this point and when the project will actually start getting built I would think that uh the expectation is that there'll be further movement on rates um I think the entire world at least those of us in the US and um those of

176us in the development World in particular expecting another rate change to the better uh this fall and so I would expect that the economic situation improves drastically uh going into next year and that would be our expectation at this point um I think for me and you know and looking at this I mean obviously we put a lot of we put a lot lot of work into that project and I think we came up with a project that we were you know fairly happy with but uh but that said there's also just crazy changes obviously going on in Ashland um and a lot of things in flux it seems like and I wonder if um I'm wondering about the two-year extension versus a one-year extension um versus you know having an empty lot sit there

177another two years it's already been sitting there two years I'm also wondering about getting getting some input from you know other from select board Town manager about other things that are going on in the town that so that we can understand how this fits into the bigger picture of um of the town we had talked about at at our Retreat which all of us were there but were you there Amanda yeah um just not an I right um and we had talked about the boards like working more together and I I I just feel like I'd like more information about what's going on in the town and different perspectives we might gain before we give a a whole twoyear a two-year extension I'm I'm not comfortable with kind of giving a decision on the Fly

178here and I I I I didn't realize that um I didn't realize that when I saw the person on your screen that that they were here for 501 during that whole discussion with MBTA so um I apologize for the long wait but I wonder yeah I'm I'm not sure I'm I'm wanting to to just jump right into this and make a decision myself tonight on on the extent of the of the but that that was the reason for my question because I was I mean I am I'm bumped that two years have passed from all the work that we do with this project and nothing I'm glad that to hear that some things are have moved ahead but I think it would be good to kind of incentive for the project to actually move forward

179um I wouldn't be opposed to a one-year extension I was actually wondering maybe from Council what the rationale was for the two was it just because it had already been two and so just do a two-e exential what's the idea especially if you're thinking to marcelo's question that spring is sort of feasible from a financing perspective a a couple of things if I may the the uh the statute chapter 48 was amended within the last couple of years allowing for special permits to be issued for up to three years your bylaw and this particular permit only allows two you have probably heard in the past of something called the permanent extension act that's currently under contemplation um by the state legislature and might also get enacted these are um kind of global Statewide recognition of

180projects being shelv as a result of various things whether it's the supply supply chain issues coming out of covid or economic issues associated with inflation and interest rates um so what is going on with this particular project at this time is Not Unusual and as the board mentioned a lot of effort went into planning this project which we still think is a good project for the town and as I've mentioned very briefly because the is late um this um site has undergone considerable amount of work uh since the project was approved material on the site that had been stockpiled in there for many years by faf has been removed the off-site work associated with the sewer upgrade was completed uh architectural drawings have been um developed so it it it is not that this has

181um been um ignored Bo by my client and uh I think all the momentum is going into completing this project and the request for more time is not out of the ordinary so I would really request that you act on this tonight and that you grant the full two years that we've requested will you I mean I I um I was thinking that so in keeping with if you're extending a year that's in keeping with sort of that three year permit time and I looked up other towns I mean some people have once hard stop 6 months up to um two years and again we're not we we can make our own we're not I'm just saying doing research of others that um the two years out of the box I would be more comfortable

182with the one year I don't think that precludes another one year we're not saying that our bylaws do not say that some towns absolutely say once one extension and I don't think we'd be saying my next question so are you sure that that it doesn't prude an I believe it's by our bylaws which we we say yeah I I it says typically for SP plan special permit you can do it um you you can obviously extend and I have there's nothing on our bylaws that I I would there's no red flags in my bylaw I agree in variances that's a different situation um mean those extensions are a little bit more obviously tenuous um but uh for for site plan special Department in this instance um we could extend it twice yeah so again um

183I'm just not sure and maybe because of the the the the um detailed discussion we just had that I'm I'm just not ready to I I don't really know what I want to do in this I feel like I need some more information to understand what is one year is it two years I'm not opposed to giving it extension I don't think but I do want to understand and the bylaws that we have in place I want to make sure we have all that understanding so and I don't want to be rushed I I know that people like to come on on and get an answer but I I I would feel rushed in that I need a little bit more time to absorb this and and and what it means yes it's an easy

184question extend yes no but I think it's a little deeper than that we spent a lot of time on this project and I want to make sure we get this little tail end of it right as as well so um I would just I would just want to talk about it again on November 14th let's get our data in the rote that you know it doesn't it doesn't expire until December 8th so we we have time here to you know to think this through to get all our questions answered that's all I'm saying the 25% housing that we are counting because of 501 that number is there a ticking bomb of when that number it's not goes off yeah it's no that's that number is part of the permit um and that was part of

185um no will the extension make any difference NOP that will carry through so it's not it's not even in our number now because they're not buil but it's not counted so those 25% those so those 20 those units right that's considered a local initiative project right we the town of action cannot add those units until occupancy prits are granted and there has to be deed restriction point in place it's a long process um that that has to take place so that there's no time bomb there's no time frame connected to the affordable housing component of the project would you concur um Council yeah no that's fixed um those all of the conditions of the permit will stay in place and and I I guess I don't understand the chair's position about being concerned about what

186the bylaws say the they're this is a vested right I think arguably the conditions that have been met currently have shown that there's been a substantial investment by the client in this permit I think it continues to be invested right I I I'm not even convinced that I need to be here tonight um based on what has been done and I guess I don't understand what the uh request is for more time to analyze this didn't we hadn't we looked at this project um in painful detail when the permit was first issued we did can you tell me what is the what's the downfall and uh what what makes the the difference in letting us have two weeks to meet at you know at a time that's not 10 to 10 and and to and

187to talk about it then what what what is the difference I mean I I personally have witness this board's very busy agenda uh with a substantial uh MBT bylaw proposal that you have um agreed to discuss again on the 14th um I I just don't understand why the board would take up more time to discuss something which is a pretty straightforward pretty standard request for the reasons I've cited and why you would delay a decision on this I mean it's to everyone's benefit to address it now and be done with it isn't it questions from the board or comments from the board I mean if if everyone is you know knows what you know has all the answers they need I mean I'm I I think it's straightforward but at 10 to 10 I am

188just not in a place where I feel comfortable saying that two years is the right move or that one year is The Right Move you know that that's me but you know and I I don't see I don't see what the downside I mean he he seems uh concerned for our time which is fine we but we can put this on the agenda first for next time right we could y that's not a problem and get get it done first right but that's that's just where I am I'm mentally tired and this request was made when the submission for the request uh it came in a couple you know week or two ago obviously we lost our we didn't we didn't meet yeah and so it kind of it's been it came in I think

189the most important thing is obviously we're starting a conversation now um in October and not you know further along uh closer to the date um the drop dead obviously the DAT of the decision was filed with the town clerk was is December 8th um yep to dea's point around I think Shi right like my the one to two consideration is also like that's like the longer it doesn't count the longer it's not built the longer we can't use it and we're so I I I guess that would be part of the calculus for me in in terms of a onee versus a two-year extension okay just pushes everything now but no but the the the argument one way or the other would be to create an incentive um because like the Cil just said they're

190they're they're they're making their hedging um in favor of of of a potential interest rates cut and could come it could not come it could come the next quarter or the quarter after uh could spend two years waiting for that as well right I mean you could make the argument that a w year extension would we kind of put um well an incentive no it's not definitive because you we could get another extension I'm just um it's unfortunate that that the interest rates cause that because we all wanted that project to to be at by now MH so but I'm not opposed to what you are proposing patri I'm I'm I'm not I'm just I I'm just tired and I don't feel able to make um I don't feel able to make what what I

191would feel a decision comfortably uh versus just yep let's get it over with you know type of thing and that and that doesn't feel right to me but I'm only one and if you guys aren't feeling that way I can trust your mental state of mind since we do have that two months November 14th pushing this out till November 14 doesn't seem like a big left and I do like the idea of looking at it step in outside that planning board preview and understanding what happens if a project is delayed with the select board and other committees and I think it's nice to kind of understand the big picture um so I don't see a harm here of why we can't wait till November 14th and if we can think of some other digal questions

192it may be straightforward we may come on 14th and say you know what two years makes sense let's let go for it but and we could put it first on the agenda let's put it first on the agenda you know so we can handle it when right right when we start I don't think it'll take long yeah you know but um we can yeah versus starting at this time of night Kate did you have anything to fine okay uh attorney cak I think uh obviously I think we're we're ready to vote tonight on this um but I I can promise that we'll put this back on the agenda on the 14th of November and we'll put this first um and uh and then I think any information that you can get with work that has

193been done you know within a memo I think I can present that we can kind of take that into consideration um and then obviously hopefully come to a decision on the 14th so so I I I second I I again thank you so much for your patience um with your MBTA Community you listening to the our MBTA Community discussion but uh that's that's important discussion for all communities and then um and obviously I'm I'm happy to be in contact with any concerns and or questions do we need to have a a vote on this or something formal no at this point that it's just a request that's on a public hearing okay um and so I think we can just make a motion to move this item agenda item to um November 14th right oh

194well he can make I'll make the motion to to move um move the 100 uh 501 Pawn Street application um extension um to November 14th and we will put that first on our agenda at that time second and a roll call vote goodbye Marcel I Katherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall I and I do think it's important to understand obviously that we did work hard on that project we feel good about I think at least I continue to feel good about it I'm just not in a frame of mind after that first after that agenda item to jump on a decision without thinking it through through thoroughly so all right uh attorney call I'll be in contact with you in the coming days okay thank you thank you okay um I guess we just didn't

195but we have a lot of other stuff I don't think if anyone has any um obviously update updates you know throw them out there for the our tremendous list of ongoing projects um um I was just going to put the um comprehensive plan if so I think there's people on the board that we put on a list um to participate in tech technical working sessions those will be early December and we it's quote early December we don't have dates so we know that people may or may not so um that's been that that'll be kind of ongoing the next couple weeks but also if you have contacts with um those housing Economic Development some some knowledge or overlap with somebody that their work we we are accepting other names like we're trying to reach out

196and not always use the same people if possible um so did something go out and I apologize if I if it didn't I didn't see it did something go out um about like in email asking for the type of people you might be looking for and uh you know is there a list of hey we're looking for real estate agents or we're looking for engineers or you know um not that I know of I hope so but I mean we might be past that so which is why I'm asking at least starting here reach out um to people so so we're collecting there's five technical working sessions Mark um it want as to be those names get collected we need 100 plus people right 20 each those get sent to the um consultant and then

197it's up to the consultant sort of like self- selecting like okay I can't really make that time frame so we will probably give names more than 20 assuming some can't make it um but no there's work in progress It's just the last push to make sure we're not using always the same people right right um I think everyone agrees with that I'm definitely The Pusher about that but but the committee agrees with that we're trying um because when you throw out names you throw out the names you always come across but maybe someone has some connections and I think we we want to use expertise so if someone has a connection that they're related to Metro West they do not have to live in Ashland necessarily um like they Michael Herbert used the example sub

198Sudbury Valley trustees is a holder of our some of our conservation we might want them to come for instance so that's an example yeah I guess um if there's anything if there's anything you can send even in a short email because again it's the same thing it's like at this time of night I'm I just I can't think of a I can't think of anything but that doesn't mean I don't know anyone I just can't think of it at this moment and by the time I leave the room I'll forgot your request yeah that's fine if I can do that yeah it can just some little reminder we put it and it is unfortunately um I did miss the meeting there was a meeting Tuesday it got rescheduled and I couldn't make it but I

199believe there's a very short window to kind of collect the last push to get that all bundled up so pretty short window if you do have suggestions and then people on this board will probably be getting requests just so you know we did we did put in names so thank you all right thank you um anyone else have anything on that long list of things that we check in about okay then I think we can go down to let let's talk just a little bit about um um holiday meeting dates obviously we're meeting the November 14th that's an important one already and uh the signage for 100 Chestnut Street I imagine will come back at that time yeah I'll put I'm going to I'm going to plan to put the signage and then the 501

200pwn Street one and two on the agenda and then whatever comes after that um we kind of work its way in so so 501 then 100 Chestnut and then MBTA and then MBTA and that can we won't put anything else on and that can just yep so and there's nothing else that should need to come on for that November meeting uh not at this point um there is a project coming forward the the town dog park um so I think that could be a small presentation um I think we're working on the application now that's been a project that's been kind of in the process and I think I know the town's trying to get that moving along there's some Grant funds attached to that okay um so um but I'll follow up with the

201board on that that's kind of a that's a good project it's a it's a it's a it's a park park uh on Memorial Drive um and so we we'll probably have to I I may have we may have to put put a little time in for that you know presentation into our public hearing we don't have anything scheduled to to to discuss the letters that we got for the 40b so we can we have them on the agenda tonight um the the 10 to 60 Main Street and the 61 wavy Street um we have been in contact with the developer for 10 to 60 Main Street I believe he's going to file fairly soon um and then we'll have to move forward from there um what's the next step I mean what's the next step

202it's what is the what what the only thing I wanted to know is when I read the letter there there was a suggestion by Mass housing that that that the developer um um kind of discuss or reviews the few things that that the town requested all zba it's all with the zba just all zba so there's nothing for us to at this point no you know we'll but the you know we kind of go it goes to the zoning board of appeals right they'll have to file an application and then the first step in this process is we will have 30 days to open a public hearing um once that project's filed um we have to move quickly and but there go but but there's no there not actionable that hearing is it the first

203hearing well but the hearing would be for what I mean do we really have a standing on on on Mak it's not a CH it's not a public hearing with us no it's on the zba with the zoning Bo of appeals yes I think we can you know as a planning board you know you know we they'll may they may solicit comments from us yeah and I think we can and then also we can attend the meetings as as you know residen is the town of Ashland okay um those meetings um you know we we we're meeting with the chair of the zoning board of appeals next week to kind of get an understanding of you know how you want how we want to set it up I I believe that those will be back

204here in public in in person meetings the zon board of appeals has been meeting online um so I think with these 40 BS we'll we'll be there we'll have representation from Town Council um Leisa me you know me uh Talan um and uh we'll go through the process to the letter of the law this is potentially wishful thinking but the fact that there there were sort of more of those in the 1060 than the other one I feeling like it's a good yep not better than not having them in there yeah no 100% you know with the language more of what the suggest strong suggestions from the state about things that they wanted uh the developer and this to okay come ready to discuss at the CBA um I wanted to just be an advocate

205for Anna's request because she asked me to she wasn't here about so if two of them got approved and now you're over is there what's the legal opinion about that is that actually so so you'd be over the 10% with two projects correct and and that has no bearing so now it's a weird thing because that means 10 developers can come and do that if that's are we over with either one by itself no but with yeah yeah that probably answers the 10 developers question we not with with Anna's qu with Anna's question is and the way I read Anna's question is that if another person comes in right between now and the approval of that 40b to Mass housing what does Mass housing do I don't know what Mass housing it would do but

206I but what I have learned from the last six to you have no idea 12 months is that it's very common for communities to face multiple 40 BS at one time um the numbers that the numbers that matter the most right is is the Shi in the present right not the Shi in the future right uh so I think we can you know and I think this is a matter of what we saw right you know we said this is our Shi and if you had this and if you had that and if you had this boom we're at 10 right but they didn't say they never took you know did they take that into consideration I'm going to say no right because they ended up issuing the letters of Eligibility anyway anyway right because

207it's not until they're built until they're added to the Shi that those count right and so I think that's what you have to look for now I don't know if bass how you know if it wents to the if it goes to the eohc um you know and does another 40b come in do they approve it I don't know how they would look at that I thought we were over with one of these our letter said you you can pick one because you'll will be at you get into you get into if everything 501 if 501 go you know 501 happens if if ugc gets a ruling and pulls a building permit it's a lot of it's a lot of hypothetical at the end of the day um which is definitely well it's unfortunate that

208they both got that way but there's nothing we can do there's nothing you can do and you just got to take you know one way you know one put one you know put take it you know play each hand and and keep on moving um I will say there is another 40b coming in it's a one Lot H Habitat for Humanity lot down on Main Street and that's a that's a project that has to go a 40b route due to some you know historical you know rulings um and I think that's a that's a pretty that's a good project the Habitat for Humanity home infield development um that will be approved uh I believe that will be approved by the state it has not yet um but um but to Anna answ to Anna to

209answer Anna's question I would say it's up to Mass housing but I I am assuming that yeah they would because um they're worried about the Shi at the date that that application files so looking at the calendar uh we have the number November 14th meeting the meeting after that is Thanksgiving day or would be Thanksgiving Day the meeting after that would be December 12th um I don't suppose if there's if there's any way the dog park can wait till December 12th that would be great if they can't they can't I get it you know um but the time you'll have to tell them the time will likely be limited um given that we're down to single meetings for these months um and um yeah on December 12 well we' probably be very relaxed well I

210don't know maybe something else will pop up between them but yep I can but I I get it you might not be able to just throwing that out there yep um otherwise otherwise we just have meeting minutes unless someone else has an announcement or I want to put it in a plug and I know that no one wants a stuffed meeting but to try to have the developer for the new pawn Street project at least discuss it since the application wasn't complete it's not submitted and I think it just might help things ultimately go better along the project and maybe not but it might at least you know speaking to you offline but yeah you know and following up with everybody here I think I can write email I can email the the the engineer

211and I can invite him you know I'll I'll take the the I'll write email and formally invite the applicant to the planning board and if they want to do so I think that's appropri um and then we can kind of move you know they can go um we can kind of see how it goes but I can reach out and and do that and I think that's an appropriate first step I think that would be a good idea too we talked about that and about an informal meeting that's not a part of the official process right so whether that's December 12 or the first meeting in January you know to kind of you know I think I think that would be a good idea too to okay I can take I wrote the many minutes

212and I don't I didn't have any comments I frankly did not even look at them this week I apologize what date are we at okay is September 12th and then there September 26th I think there's a joint meeting in between I have to get out uh I'll put on the next agenda that was the one with the select board and the uh The Joint meeting with the select board and I think that was September 18th and I'll have those ready for the next meeting just make a quick plug um ctpc they're having their fall workshops um if anyone is interested um they're starting to put these on Zoom which is a good thing so I can I can send that out if anybody is interested uh please let me know are you getting to go

213to the uh the planner conference in Springfield it's like next week or the week after yeah yeah next next Thursday and Friday I'll be out in Springfield that the they have some really good well the titles I don't know if they'll be good workshops but the titles look pretty good on some of they'll be pretty good it's always a pretty good conference um I have to get um as an accredited American planner I have to get my CM credit points and I'll go out there and actually um Samantha Riley our sustainability coordinator is going to be a presenter um and so she's been done some really great projects on heat mapping um with Framingham and um natic um within some M mapc Regional projects and so they're going to actually be presenting out in Springfield

214so which is pretty good uh plug for Samantha she does a great job um and she's got a lot of good stuff going on with sustainability at this point so please look out for those and in in the newsletter a lot of stuff happening there everybody ready so I make a motion to approve the uh minutes from September 12th 2024 meeting second the roll call vote I was in the meeting Marcela I Katherine Jersey guy and Trisha Kendall I all right give me just a second to look at this is it just me or are these meeting minutes starting to feel like actual conversations transcribed in these meeting minutes is it just me that feels that way it's like literally we're talking about like for example this paragraph line 72 this may be a question

215for Tomy me to address how to not decrease like it's feels like it's actual conversations and meeting minutes I thought the meeting minutes we got I think at the last meeting felt different than this and now they're back to that very detailed yeah um which is not a bad thing but feels well like script I feel like it was more detail but not as good and I so I agree in one way but it's fine I mean if which just maybe we do communicate cuz it was sort of missing maybe important details but putting less important details is kind of the flavor I would say for for I have a question on the line I just read that now it said edits were made to the draft minutes but if it does should we strike

216that if if we're not saying what the edits were it's on line 140 on um September 26 edits were made in the dra minutes it's I mean I guess it's fine it's just a little odd to say edits were made but not mentioned like yeah I don't think it needs to be in there I mean that's what I'm saying should we strike it yeah yeah I think otherwise I'm this I'm good kind of skimming but it seems to be generally you know what we talked about okay yeah make a motion I make a motion that we accept the September 26 2024 minutes with the small edit second and a roll call vote Marcel I Katherine Jersey guy and Trisha Kendall okay so meeting minutes are done I think that's all we're going to squeeze into

217this evening and uh we have a game plan for our meeting on the 14th mhm make a motion and we'll see what big events happen between now and then forc eviction a shell of a human treating withy use the first to recover yeah make a motion to adjourn is there a second second and a roll call vote Catherine Jersey K Amanda ha ey and Trisha Kendall ey all right thanks everybody