Clock Town Chronicles ep 3

001[Music] good afternoon everybody uh this is Michael Herbert nashland Town manager we're here for another episode of Clock Town Chronicles um our opportunity to get into depth into things that are happening in and to Ashland uh Massachusetts this is episode three um you know previous episodes we've been able to kind of go through a 10e retrospective of the town uh and then our last one was related to the comprehensive plan and we're actually going to continue the planning theme in episode three today and we're going to talk about Municipal planning and uh specifically we're going to get a little bit into a specific type of project known as a 40b project but before we get into to the subject too deep I want to introduce my two guests here today uh first to my left

002uh is Peter matchak Peter is the town planner here in the town of mass as Ashley in Massachusetts almost the town of Massachusetts yes I have lived here more than half my life folks um and then to my right we have John traan who is chair of the zoning board of appeals gentlemen thank you both for uh being willing to be here today and uh answer some questions and and tell us a little bit about uh things that are happening in your world so thanks for inviting me yeah we're happy to be here Michael absolutely so yeah you know typical free flowing conversation and got Melissa Hayes here who's going to keep us on track and we'll have the time clock because I think between the three of us uh we've been known to go

003a little bit long sometimes uh when we uh get started peace looking at me like what are you talking about speak for yourself pal um but Pete why don't we start with you man uh Pete and I have known other for years um and uh Pete's always been interested in playing but Pete why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got into planning Municipal planning and how you ended up here in the town of Ashland sure thanks Mike so uh so yeah I've been a municipal planner for uh going on 10 years now and uh as I say I'm a I grew up in Massachusetts on the North Shore up in damis uh and uh I went to westfi State College starting about 2003 and and I studied Regional planing at Westfield

004State College and did uh also kind of was at that time working um working through GIS geographical Information Systems kind of learning the trade that was my undergrad then when I got out of uh undergrad at Westfield State uh 2008 um recession hit and then I kind of dovetail back into graduate school um a perfect time to go perfect time to yeah it was a perfect time to get out right in the recession yeah perfect time to get out of school and start looking for a job uh but it suited me well right I went to West I went back to school uh doing GIS work at Salem State uh which obviously was local and uh you know gaining experiences at that time I was also volunteering had had a great opportunity had some great

005friends in planning yeah uh you know Kate day who was a senior planner up in danamas was a great person that that I uh I interacted with a lot and um and at that time you know I actually volunteered on the damis rail trail which was a way for me to kind of get some Municipal experience uh kind of going and and that was that was a great project for the town of Danver and for where I was uh you know in my life and then um GIS you know you're sitting behind the computer sitting and clicking I always say and uh there wasn't too much um personal you know um connections going on you know you're kind of and I didn't want to be stuck behind the computer my entire life uh and so

006at that point I uh I shifted gears and and I went out to uh UMass Amherst and I got into a graduate program out there uh for regional planning landscape architecture which was a great thing to that that I did landscape wait landscape architecture you had that part of part of your program was landscape AR part of the program is landscape architecture yeah but my focus is my focus was Regional planning but um to tell you the truth some days when I was uh some you know when I was sick of writing papers I I always took a landscape architecture class to focus in on uh you know uh grading you know very interesting topics that Landscape Architects take see I had no idea about this about be yeah and then um but yeah I

007got out and then you know I've been practicing planning at the municipal level um for 10 years um my first stop was in Handover then in kasset on the Southshore you know as a as a Northshore guy I didn't think I would ever uh I I always joked around I fell in the draft to the Southshore and uh but I met some great people down there um still good friends to this day uh who I uh respect highly and I I still T stay in touch with and then about five years a little over five years ago I um you know I joined Ashland and and I was hired by you and uh it's been uh it's been a lot it's been busy as you told me five years ago um Ashland downtown Ashland would

008not be the same place it was five years ago and uh I would say this is that you delivered on that promise uh with the renovations to the downtown and and the inovations on Pawn Street and obviously the projects that we're working on and uh you know you know the state is actually in obviously in a different place after the pandemic um you know planning is a little bit different too you know so uh but yeah right now we got the comprehensive plan going um and obviously a couple big projects coming through but we've also dealt with some really big projects complex projects yeah you know I would say you know we you know the completion into the final permanent stage and and seeing the Final Phase Construction of Village of the Americas is is

009a big was a big part 100 Chestnut Street 100 Chestnut Street you know the 70 174 units and and 10 and half th000 square feet of commercial I think that's a real uh that was a real interesting project to work on to permit to understand MH um and uh yeah it's been it's been a fun ride these last 10 years five years but you know it just seems like 10 sometimes yeah they're busy I'll say that you know they're busy yeah we try to we try to we try to keep you busy and John how about you uh you know you're here well you work with the town of Ashlin in a volunteer capacity as a Committee Member so what I'm the only one here that's not being paid um that is well I did

010tell you I'd give you a couple bucks for this right didn't I oh yeah well yeah I'll at least buy you a coffee something food is good it's the least I could do but uh John yeah why don't you just let us know a little bit about you know why you were interested in volunteering for the town of ashin what made you decide like the zoning board of appeals was kind of the direction you wanted to go in well I was a retired attorney uh never practiced in the field of land use zoning or anything uh was looking for something to do and it was actually a project that had come before the zoning board of appeals project in my neighborhood and um I had spoken at the project in opposition to the project and

011notwithstanding my what I thought was a compelling argument uh the CBA approved the project yeah uh and I thought well you know maybe I can add something to the process um and I um filled out a talent Bank form and I think there was an opening I think for an associate member at the time yeah and um yeah the zba has has three full members three full members and asso two two to four up to four it's a maximum and at the moment we are I think we're at three okay um and um I was um interviewed over the phone by one of the um select board members at the time uh to sort of make sure that I understood the possibilities of conflict of interest and things of that nature and I said I

012did and I was appointed and I came on as an associate member for a year or two I think and then a position as a full member opened and I was appointed to that uh and that was a number of years ago now okay well and here you are yes it's been through number of different going strong for sure so John I'm actually I'll just start getting you hitting you with the hard questions right away because um you you brought up something that you know I I wanted to to lead into and you said you know one of the ways you got involved or how you got involved is that there was a project that was kind of affecting your neighborhood and you went to the zba and um you made some arguments against that

013project or maybe some particulars regarding that project and the zba still found that it was important to move forward with that project let me ask you being on the zba now do you do you understand well let me rephrase let me reframe this a bit um one of the things that we hear sometimes is that people they go to either the planning board or zba or the select board and they speak out against projects and then sometimes a lot of times those projects move forward anyway uh maybe with some conditions that have been impacted by the comments that the boards have received but you know maybe not but um sometimes it's hard to understand to or help explain to people why some projects move forward when they don't want to see it moved forward in

014the first place being in the chair position or being on the zba can you understand do you have a little bit of a better perspective now about projects in general well I think you know the the the short answer to that is yes um it was more the process and the the matter that sort of caught my attention that I I thought could have been improved uh and that's why I wanted to become involved uh and I keep that in the back of my mind now as we we come before matters I mean the zba unlike the planning board we're really in a pellet organization as it were is that the reason people come before us is because they want some change what they want to do isn't allowed by right under the zoning bylaws

015and they want a either a special permit or a variance uh to allow them to do what they would like to do right uh and in facing issues like that um one of the things that the zba tries to do um at the very beginning and it starts with the planning department when the uh the applicants meet with Peter or Alvaro and review the process and it continues with the zba is explain to people not only what the process is but what what the zba can and can't do uh and what we have to find in order to Grant what they want to do and that's not something that you know the average lay person knows most of the people that come before us on special permits don't have an attorney with them so they're

016proceeding prosay and it's a it's a new process for them uh but I think communication and trying to get them to understand and help them understand what our limitations are as a board is is help although they may not be pleased with the ultimate decision yeah I I would agree with that I think people appreciate others who take the opportunity to explain to them kind of what what your constraints are and and what you're working on and what you have to work with but you brought up a couple of uh you know technical terms uh things like special permits and and variances and Pete I'll I'll turn to you um you know maybe you can give the average listener just kind of an explanation of what those things are especially as it relates to zoning

017itself and and kind of maybe just a high level overview of what zoning is yeah so obviously zoning you know zoning kind of goes back to the turn of century mid 19th century you know mid I think it's 1954 the Supreme Court kind of puts it in play uh through a rule in ukle amer which is Ohio famous Ohio case uh but zoning is they are to from from an original Statue point of view is to uh protect health safety and Welfare across the board um state of Massachusetts and opts the Zone enacts the zoning act I believe it's 1952 uh most of these in towns in Massachusetts adopt uh such as Ashland in two ashin you know we adopt zoning um in 1954 um and so that comes under Statute 40a in Mass General

018law and there's a couple things to look at right there's the special permits which is you know see a special request regarding a use um that can in in some towns depending on the organizational structure that could go to the zoning board of appeals Andor it could go to the planning board um across the board it differs and I think it's kind of when those zoning bylaws are updated or drafted um the organization Andor those those hearings are held by separate boards right um variances in Massachusetts are always held and granted by the zoning board of appeals um that's under Section 10 of Mass General uh Mass General law 4A so if you want to do something that's not within the zoning correct you need to go see barri and so in Massachusetts and in

019in typically in in most communities the state and and communities have adopted the ability to Grant dimensional variances right Ashland is in the zoning board of appeals is allowed to Grant dimensional variances not use variances mean by dimensional Varian dimensional variances are regarding setbacks right how far you can set you can build uh in relationship to the street your side setbacks um your rear setback um those are the variances that that that can be granted uh those have to be linked to shape of your lot topography soil and hardship which can which should be not Financial but in some cases it is financial about reasoning lot size lot size would be a variance that's also a dimensional um and then and so those are the two elements and then obviously applying chapter 40b the zoning

020board of appeals also does he comprehensive permits um which which is a different process in its own but for for a whole you know the zoning bylaws are there to help um organize land uses um and protect the health safety and Welfare of residents um as a quick summary yeah I think you know when when people hear the word zoning it can be kind of this mysterious almost mythical uh thing right and really I think like you said Pete zoning is really kind of where that that intersection of where property rights kind of meet with the health well-being and safety of the community in general right yeah 100 yes yeah and so zoning says you know you can do things like okay if you want to you know in a section of town that's Zone

021res a residential a which is a specific Zone like you have to have a lot size of 30,000,000 Ft right you can only build a single family home or maybe a duplex um your setbacks have to be you know 30 feet off the front 20 feet off the side um you know things like that so it's Bas basically the rules kind of the constraints that you have to build within correct you know zoning creates your Zone what I would call your building envelope on your typical residential a lot you know a residential a lot 30,000 square fet and I would say across the board of Massachusetts that's your probably your most common lot size you know um it's a big 30,000 ft is a big lot right um and I think that's um a discussion

022point but typically across the board you know within subdivision development you're looking at 100 50 ft of Frontage on a roadway um and you're looking for 30,000 square ft of of space MH so you know I think um you know for in the simplest terms let's just say you're a homeowner or you're you're a land owner right you go in you buy a lot of land a lot and it's um you know Zone residential a you know if what you want to build which is a single family home meets the zoning all you need to do is just go to the building commissioner and pull a building permit that's correct yeah start building 100% yep for any residential single family house on any you know vacant piece of property right and and and meanwhile those

023are hard to come by these days vacant pieces of property you know buildable lot yeah you know I think you know the setbacks or the zoning requirements of the dimensional requirements create the building envelope and you as a land owner have the ability to file for a building permit and you don't have to do anything with the zoning board or the planning board you know um and and if you're in with proximity of wetlands that's a different story cuz you may have to go see the conservation department but uh in if you have septic or versus sewer another question then you got to go talk to the board of health or the DPW regarding how do you connect to the infrastructure uh but yeah no you do have the property right you know it's within

024your um bundle of sticks as they is as sometimes you know lawyers uh kind of relate to uh no offense there John no lawyer joke former lawyer so it's okay okay to to apply for a building perment and then and then you know with some of these larger projects that people see you know some of these apartment buildings multif family buildings some of the condos that were built back in the 80s there's a little bit more involved of a planning process right yeah 100% you know when you're talking about a big project right you're talking about uh you know over on Chestnut Street for example right the village of the Americas uh the Final Phase the mix use phase the one's being constructed right the one's under construction right now uh that was permited through

025the planning board not the zba uh due to the zoning and but they have to go through site plan review it's called right so it's a little bit more complicated right you have to look at the number of parking spots the ratio of parking to the number of units the residential versus the commercial um most importantly safety at access uh access for the fire department um Can their trucks maneuver the site moving around the site and then what become more you know increasingly important you know not just at the Town level but from the state level is uh storm water and storm water review and to make sure that whatever you build whatever water you displace that used to functionally um dissipate through that site um can now be mechanically and engineered to stay on

026that site to infiltrate through that land area and you're not passing that water that sheet flow over to an adjoining property that's now against the law um and so therefore whatever you build on your site you have to maintain on your site and you have to make sure that you have the um engineering capacity or the storm water capacity to make all these things work and so as you develop property any property you know there there's a lot of a lot of things at work you know that that a developer has to look at yeah and so I you know I think it's important that we have this kind of initial um discussion about zoning and what it is and kind of what these projects are and what kind of process they have to go

027through because you know in the time that we have left we want to just cover a specific type of project called a 40b project and and Ashland has uh seen you know if you've been paying attention out there you've seen that we've had two 40b projects essentially come across our desk I'm using air quotes there and uh 40b projects are uh they can be pretty involved from an administrative and a bureaucratic process but they are very very very controversial projects and uh Pete you know now that we've talked a little bit about zoning and what zoning is and what zoning covers why don't why don't you explain to us what 40b is and what a 40b project is sure so a 40b project you know to sum it up is comes under the it's it's

028known as a 40b because that's the state statute that that that was invoked to create this permanent Avenue I would call it right and uh the permit from a functional standpoint is called a comprehensive permit um and in chapter 40b law the legislation dates back to I believe um the mid 1960s is that correct 69 69 right after the fair housing act kind of gets passed at the federal level um in the the goal behind chapter 40b is to develop quote unquote affordable housing right now with a with a 40b project 25% of those units have to be deed restricted for anybody making up to or less than the area median income which is known as a Ami um a census driven statistic um and we and Ashen are part of the Boston Cambridge quiny

029census metropolitan area right and so that's just kind of one of the the things to to remember but chapter 40b if a developer is proposing a 40b project a comprehensive permit they have to go to the state and get what's known as a letter of Eligibility and then they can file with the local zoning board of appeals um what chapter 40b does is you know if a developer is proposing this and the development and creation of affordable housing right um the town well the developer gets to um create what's known as a whst uh has to submit what's known as a a list of waivers right and they almost Sid step a community zoning bylaws um regarding height density you know scale in in some instances right and so um that's kind of what's at

030play here yeah what does the town get in return right well chapter 40b another subsection of the law requires all towns in Massachusetts cities and towns in Massachusetts and demands all cities and towns in Massachusetts is to have 10% of their housing stock be affordable right um so with a 40b project you're only creating 25% affordability at a deed restricted level however the Community gets to add all units onto the Comm onto what's known as the the subsidized housing inventory right Shi for short and so for simple mathematical numbers right here have a project say of a 100 units of rental units um is proposed 25 units have to be deed restricted for people making up to or less than 40 80% of the area meeting income and then all 100 units of that project

031is added to the town's subsidized housing inventory um and that's for rental projects like and that's for rental projects you only have to add the 25 correct correct and just right now just for a matter of the conversation you know the town of Ashton is at 5.62% affordable housing and and it's interesting because so in 1969 the reason the legislature created chapter 40b is because Suburban urban communities were actually passing zoning and implementing zoning that kept multif family housing and affordable housing from being built and so the legislature said okay well this is a Statewide issue and so we're going to pass this law that essentially allows developers like you said Pete um if they propose building something that has 25% affordable you 25% of the units are affordable uh they get to bypass that

032town zoning like so things like density and stuff and stuff like that and uh so that's why you see in some communities Ashlin included but you know this happen Statewide and certainly in Metro West where you see some of these very very dense large tall projects being built um in places that you know are you don't see those yeah you may not think they would be appropriate for that site however you know a community uh has to provide 10% affordable and so um you know the over time you know communities have to put obvious I always say the community has to put the wave on the bow right and figure it out um but also in approving a project of that nature right the town gets to increase the the their their housing inventory right

033and and the whole goal of the state is to get 10 10% affordability right now Once a community hits 10% affordability you enter what's known as Safe Harbor right so then actually you can deny outright any 40b project there is that comes across the table right through a development standpoint and so all communities are Thrive are striving to meet well their goal is to get 10% afford you know 10% on the subsize housing right so I think that's a good explanation and uh that 10% number is important because you can like you said if Community gets that you can deny 40b projects that you know uh come to your community if you want to um so before we get into actually some of the new 40b projects that are being proposed Ashlin has let's see

034three well three that I think we've that that have either been built or were proposed and permitted let's see so um we've got the Robert Hill Way project um which was 64 units of affordable housing on off of Independence we had um the ugc project that was permitted uh a few years ago and oh we had Ashlin Woods 60 units that was uh approved and built on on the uh basically on the Hopkinson line and then we also had one 133 West Union Street otherwise known as the Valentine property that actually got a permit a comprehensive permit ended up not uh being built because uh the town ended up buying the property but John you've you've been on the zba when two of these projects have come across uh direct the Valentine Estate One and

035the UCC one I was on the board and a voting member yeah so what's what's been your experience and perspective with those so it's interesting to note so the 133 West Union project is is what what we call an unfriendly 40b meaning you know that had no Town support um whereas the ugc project and actually the Robert Hill Way project but the ugc project you're familiar with uh is called a friendly 40b 40b because it had select board support but um just with those caveats sorry I interrupted you just it's quite right um I mean they were two totally different processes the Valentine estate project that you said did not have a town support um there were significant the developer proposed making significant changes to what basically was um a wooded property um the hearing

036continued I think for well over a year oh yeah as we um there were requests for continuances on both sides um the town doesn't go into this uh you know empty-handed and without support we had Town Council at every meeting uh the zba retained Services of Engineers traffic Consultants Etc what's called peer review to review what's being proposed by the developer and we ultimately made a uh a decision granting the special the comprehensive permit but with a number of conditions M uh the developer uh was apparently unhappy with the conditions and appealed our decision to the housing appeal agency uh and that's where the matter was uh was pending and I can still recall sitting with the zba members in a small room in the basement of the of town hall while the matter was

037being adjudicated with between the lawyers and a mediator I think that had been brought in uh to see if we could resolve it and um ultimately um it was resolved and the town came to a decision to to purchase the uh the property and uh that's why it still is a primarily wooded um wooded property yeah dilapidated Farmhouse with a renovated Barn you know it took us a little while someone will hopefully come along with an idea and you know we got no shortage of ideas turn it into something that's Prof profitable for all concerned the ugc property um what you would call as a is a a friendly uh 40b did have support for the town um it was a different process because it was done over Zoom MH because we were in the

038the post-pandemic stage um it did not mean that there weren't changes to the developers proposal because the zba um working with the developer and the developers engineer made certain changes in The Proposal uh particularly the one that comes to mind is the um exit onto the roadway heading down to 126 there were concerns about people walking and not being able to have a sidewalk and whatnot but ultimately it was it was approved and we thought all was well but then subsequently litigation was started by a third party and things are on hold until that litigation is is resolved um I think think in both of those e both the unfriendly and the friendly the zba has very limited ability to make changes uh it's limited to certain areas of concern all the issues that are

039proposed developer would have which normally would go to the before the planning board or the Health commission or local ordinances under the Conservation Commission all come before the zba and the zba has the sole authority to decide on all of those issues although we would certainly do so with the advice of the various town uh boards uh but we really can't just say oh we don't like the project right there has to be we we can perhaps change size we can we can change design uh perhaps change the location of a building on the site things of that nature um if it's supported by a sound basis you have to have evidence you have to have some evidence of why what the developer is proposing doesn't work um there is limited ability to uh question

040whether the project is financially feasible um and that sort of a at the end of the project if we would ever get to that point but it's it's not like the project comes before the zba like a special permit or a variance request where you know all we're governed by is the zoning bylaws so the town of Ashland um those are basically set aside yeah and I think you know you brought up the housing appeals committee which is an important component here because you know the question's going to be you know as I'm sure people asked at 133 West Union Street you know when you approved it with conditions well John you know if the if the community doesn't like the project why approve it anyway why why don't you just deny it and the

041thing is is that you can deny the zba does have the ability to deny a project we do right but what happens at that point in time is that the developer has the opportunity to appeal to a state agency that's outside of the town's control called the housing appeals committee and and basically the developers case is that well whatever you know the denial is not right or whatever condition if their you know onerous conditions they can even appeal the conditions um that it's approved with and say that it's uneconomic and what history has shown um in over 95% of the time is that this housing appeals committee the state agency overrules the local zoning board and basically lets these projects go through and and that's I mean that is why it's designed if it's if

042it's a complete denial of the of the application the housing agency overrules the denial and the project is approved exactly as it was presented by the developer with no changes no changes nothing um and the reason why in these two one two specific iic proposals we approved it with conditions was we were trying to make speaking for myself the best decision we could with what we thought were the most limitations we can put on the project to basically make the best of what we perceived as a bad situation uh and hopefully the housing appeal agency would see that you know we weren't denying the project outright we had conditions hopefully they would uphold those conditions perhaps they would uphold some deny others but in any event the project wouldn't go forward 100% the way the

043developer wanted there would be some changes which we thought made the project better and were within our power to make but again we go in and it it's almost like you've got one and a half hands tied behind your back because you can't start out with an even slate you start out with the fact that there's a lot of U housing is important affordable housing is important Ashlin doesn't have 10% uh through other means so we are forced to deal with are with here we are and as you mentioned two recently with two proposals before the state agency um we're sort of getting walloped all at once yeah so Pete why don't we turn our attention to these two proposals so you've got the first one is uh located at the uh Mill The Old

044Mill site Ashland Mills at 10 to 60 Main Street it's called is that one the sanctuary the S Sanctuary at Ashland Mills the sanctuary at ashin Mills and then you know literally a week after we got notified of that one uh we got notified of a second one um which is on Oasis yeah the Oasis these I love how they come up with these names well interestingly the developer apparently has two previous projects one in Plymouth in one planville planville that are the Oasis at so this perhaps is the fits the theme fits the theme that going forward yes yes so Pete can W you tell us a little bit about these two so the fresh project Michael that you mentioned is at the the M the 10 to 50 million 10 to 60 Milli

045whatever you know the uh going by the addresses and the assessor database but that project is proposed for uh 250 uh units um in in like unlike other 40 BS there's actually a commercial component to this 40b project uh which would the commercial component that's being proposed is in the historical 10 Main Street um what commercial use uh that has not really been determined the indoor set yet however it's been hinted that the developer would be looking to put in a a restaurant um in that area um there' be other uh I think that's a biggest commercial user out of the space I think it it runs about the the space on the in The Proposal runs about 7500 Square ft um and then for the second project is the Oasis in uh Ashland and

046that project proposes um all residential with 226 units uh and that's at uh on on on land which is kind of in a in a pie shaped formation between Waverly Street and uh East Union Street um and but uh just so no access would just be out onto Waverly Street um it would not be uh accessing uh you West un you Union uh across from the high school and uh so you know as as we mentioned earlier there's a number of of phases that these projects have to go through and and where are these projects right now in those respective pH so so B both projects are still in the beginning phases right they are still uh applying for what's known as an eligible eligibility letter through a subsidized housing agency both projects are using

047Mass housing as a subsidized housing agency and so both projects are right now under review at Mass housing um the town of ashon has submitted a a letter a community uh excuse me a community comment comment letter Y uh regarding 10 main 10 to 60 Main Street the the sanctuary at Asha Mills uh however uh the town is also in the the the period for the for the second project um The Oasis uh we're still in our time period and and I'm sure the Comm will be putting together a letter for that uh for that project um and so um right now there's been there's been no permanent filings and the project has not been per uh received um and or filed at the Town level um and so uh if the you know when

048the applicant or if the applicant and or when the applicant gets a eligibility letter then they would file with the town and then I believe that the town has 30 days to open up a public hearing and so um that is the kind of the the the kind of rough situation that we're in right now um and right now you know obviously we'll wait and see what happens with with both project if if if they do receive an eligibility letter then they'll probably move forward if they don't um you know I think maybe you know that that will kind of maybe end the conversation for now right but right you know there's there's you know housing is is a regional issue um you know the the current Administration is is really focused on it pushing

049it hard you know pushing it hard we've been you know we as a town of Ashland that you know we're looking at the MBTA zoning known as 3A uh which is different than 40 which is 100% different from 40b but I would say across the board you know across the state Eastern Massachusetts uh housing is a is a is a number one to topic that we that planners talk about yeah uh on a day in and day out basis and um and and we're we're trying to stay ahead of the curve obviously regarding these two and then OB the 40b projects but then also MBTA Zing yeah I think you know I think it's interesting the uh the mill project so you know that's something that Peter I know you and I and and well

050a lot of people I mean if you look studies going back to the early 2000s and John you're probably involved in some some of these the renovation of that site has always been kind of identified as a priority as a way to kind of um I guess Revitalize our downtown area and um you know it's such a big site and it's a Gateway site and we all know what the condition of it is right now and it it's not the best um and so you know I think the renovation of that site has always been key you know and I think think actually if you talk to anybody they would be like oh yeah it'd be great if that was renovated and then where people start diverging is okay but renovated into what MH and

051you know a lot of people in town and I think we would agree you know if if it was feasible like you could do it would be awesome if it was majority of a commercial or a lot of it you know commercial um but the fact is is that's not where the economics are right now um and that's not what is getting financed and what's getting um what's getting built so we can say as a community all we want that hey you know what we'd love to have you know the 50 units and the rest of it be like a commercial property I mean I mean I'm speaking specifically to the one of the- Mill right now but the thing is is that nobody's going to build that and nobody is going to finance that

052it has to have a heavy residential component and so we've been really trying trying to work to try to find something that would be palatable for the community uh for that site and I know the planning board last had a um you know uh the the the mill owner had gone to the planning board and was actually looking at permitting a site permitting that site with something a little bit different and uh ultimately decided you know to go in this direction but um yeah you're quite Michael you know I can I can speak to that real you know quickly is that yes the planning boy did have an application up front you know in front of them uh about a year ago it was um coming up on a year now it was withdrawn this

053past September right so almost a year ago but previously the prior year that the planning board and the the property owner um were working on a project you know and and that project started off at 200 units with 25% affordability and it had commercial space in the range of I think it fluctuated anywhere from 25,000 Square ft anywhere North to about 32 uh excuse me you know um 30 32,000 ft right um that project at one point you know it within redesigns and going back and forth to try to you know mold and and manipulate into massage a better project um those numbers then drop down to 188 units with for uh 15% of affordability now with that the town could not add all units onto the sub size housing inventory and then it kept

054about I think it retained between 20 to 25,000 ft of commercial space in the building now you know working through that project and and and working with the you know the owner the property owner at the time who was the applicant um when he was trying to look at financing the project that was in front of him in front of the planning board you know with the way the economy was going with the interest rates the interest rates going you know North at that time you know we were obviously at the 2 and 1 half% range and then they obviously with inflation they Rose quite dramatically I think right now we're at the 7 and a half% um also in addition construction cost labor cost material cost the project that was there at that time

055was not feasible right from a financial standpoint um and so then obvious that the the developer well the owner of the property who was a developer withdrew the project without prejudice from the planning board you know and and that he obviously went back to the to the drawing board too you know I think um he wants to make an investment into that property you know I think um and to see the best use of his property um to see through with the best use of the property and and you know with as a property owner he has the ability to do that within his property rights uh but yes the planning board did work on a project however it didn't really work out to to into fruition and it was not it was not completed

056through that permitting process or that review process and and uh with that said however you know a project is back again in front of the planning board excuse me um a project is back again not in front of the planning board but right now with a subsidized with with a state agency um and could be in the future submitted to the zoning board of appeals and I think it might be helpful to sort of recognize the Mass housing when they could consider whether or not to give approval to the developer what they what they consider right uh specified very specifi very specified items they they look at whether the project is a generally eligible for the 40b right um is the site generally appropriate for what's being proposed um is the conceptual project design generally

057appropriate for the site um does the developer have control of the site and is the project financially feasible and those are both all sort of very general you know conditions uh so yeah I'm not sure whether the devel whether Mass housing goes back to the developer with questions or what have you um their Mass housing's sort of informational site talks about a 9 90day process from the date of their receipt of the documents to when they make a decision um sounds about right and we've gotten a 30-day extension of time on our 30-day comment period so arguably maybe we're looking at 120 days they're not they're not bound by that they can take as much time as they want but that in their handouts that's what they sort of give as a guideline yeah we

058we submitted that the comment letter to Mass housing for the mill site last Wednesday I believe so we'll be interesting then we have it until the 27th or the 29th of June from The Other One MH yeah I think right now obviously we are we are as a town for the mill for the ash Mills we're kind of we've done we've submitted a comment letter and now we're you know waiting awaiting news you know and to see how that project moves forward and if the projects are ultimately AU authorized by Mass Housing and are filed with the town there are very specific time frames that the town has to abide by or we run the risk of The Proposal being automatically approved we have to schedule and open a public hearing within 30 days of

059the uh date that the towned the documentation and I believe the hearing has to be concluded within 180 days although that period can be extended by agreement of the developer in the town and my understanding and talking in with Town Council on other previous matters that those extensions are usually granted by the parties yeah 100% you know I think we do you know when when a project does come in we you have to abide by the time line and the time frame set out in the statute uh but yes you know continuances are often granted um throughout a pering process you know I think for the for the ugc project which is up which is on Memorial Drive I think that took about I think from the start to finish wire to wire I think

060we're probably like six to 6 to eight months yeah I would say in that time period and obviously we're outside of 180 days and and but there's typically obviously within with a with good faith both parties do extend y all right well gentlemen we're we're actually quickly running out of time is there anything uh anything else that uh you want to make sure that uh you have our listeners now no I mean just that in the event that we do receive a comprehensive permit application and there is a hearing opened the public will be given an opportunity to speak speak uh at the public hearings it's good and um let their position be known um the board has been meeting via Zoom for the past several years and we found it's worked very conveniently for

061us with a 40b proposal I think we may need to revisit that and begin meeting in person uh just to make it easier for people to uh attend and and be heard but also for sharing of documents on the screens and what have you but that's not something that the board has really discussed but that's where my brain has been going and and so right now up on the planning website the planning section of the town's website we have information on both projects that's correct so um actually all projects in town VI you know that go through the planning office Freddy the planning board andoor zoning board I'll take the time to plug that all information is is is is up on the website under the current projects page um and under the on that

062page there are uh potential 40b 40b applications um and the two that we stated today um the the Oasis at Ashland and the sanctuary at Ashland Mills uh are both up there with information you know with the full application that is submitted to Mass housing um in the renderings and the site plan excellent okay well John Peter thank you so much uh to both of you for uh being willing to share your time today and your expertise and your experience uh on planning and 40b projects in particular um obviously this is going to be a uh a Prett wild ride here in the town of Ashton for the next few months just seeing where these projects go uh um you know as as you mentioned if Mass housing denies their letter of Eligibility it kind

063of stops the process right there if not we have to move forward to the next step which is the zba process and John doing a good job of outlining some of those time frames but encourage everybody to stay engaged again follow uh the town's website uh to get some information on that on those projects the zba hearings will be televised in person Zoom you you'll be able to speak people who are interested will be able to to watch View and attend and speak in some way shape or form um throughout the process so encourage you all to to stay involved uh that is it for this episode of clock toown Chronicles um if you have any questions or if you have any other things that you'd like us to talk about or or comments uh

064please email us at clocktown Chronicles at Ash mass.com looking over at Melissa she's nodding her head that I did get the email address right which is good um but uh anyway it's a it's been a pleasure to have you listening here today and hopefully you've got some good information uh on things going on in the town and we will see you for the next episode I believe our next episode will be newly elected select board member Makita Keegan who's going to come and talk to us about uh just kind of what uh her history of public service and what inspired her to run and what she's hoping to accomplish as part of the select board so anyway again my name is Michael Herbert uh Town manager uh thank you again for listening and have a

065good afternoon everyone [Music]