Ashland Planning Board May 9 2024

001e e e welcome everyone um Ashlin planning board meeting of May 9th 2024 just want to remind everyone that the meeting is being broadcast and recorded So first on our agenda as always is the clerk's report Kate um yes Madam chair we received two correspondents to the planning board from the last meeting um there's one particularly that I do think we need to discuss as a board it was um a comment about the three years a application was in front of the board and that was um we did not have a case in front of us for for three years so I think that we do need to um confirm what kind of response we want to give I think it's important to uh yeah I'm just I'm trying to remember that if I re

002three years in front of the board yeah um so a local resident wrote in and um oh sorry a local resident wrote in and it it's some um related to the 40b application at 10 to 60 Main Street oh okay and that yeah um the planning board you know it's sort of I I think this is very bad for the town if we don't correct the record that um I they're they applied on J July 25th 2022 and on May 30 1st 2023 Which is less than a year they had a giant they they were requesting Contin continu for I think about 3 months and as we recall there was many continuances in that time period so my my point of bringing up discussion is that the current draft samples that the clerk has authorized

003on behalf of the board does not cover that and I think we we have to um make sure that we respond and appropriate that's important and related to okay so is this is this something that you want to talk about under 10 to 60 or well I think the clerk report to get a response what to to respond but it we it's about so yeah I think I know it's the it's the it's the letter from Mike Kane yes so um but so why don't we I was anticipating that we if that we would if someone want to discuss that that would be under 10 to 60 main um but out of that might be you're you're um concerned about correcting the factual information which may be in a response which might be just which

004might be just Peter saying just a correction that this happened on this date this happened on that date just I I mean I I think so but unfortunately there was also a monthly paper newspaper that said that the applicant was um frustrated the planning board and I have the letter that says it wasn't they were complimentary of the planning board so it's I think it's a little bit bigger of an issue that we probably have to possibly have some kind of statement from the board um it can just just go on the website we don't have to try to publish it or ask the paper for a correction but I think um I I don't see how it's helpful to the professionalism of the board nor the town to have a people thinking that okay

005let um so why don't we wait to discuss that under 10 to 60 because it seems a little beyond the clerk's report discussion at this point so why don't we wait at to discuss that at 10 to 60 and we can see what as a board we want to do if anything okay all right um are the are there other correspondences caught um there was two two that were received one I responded to the clerk and and one that I could not respond as clerk okay and last meeting after last meeting I did send some that were not responded I haven't heard if they were or not I'm still working through that I think 90% of them have been responded to so I'll I'm working to confirm that okay I going to say I didn't

006see anything come through that I thought was in my boat but if you disagree and think that something is in my boat let me know okay we'll do all right thank you um all right so now we have uh item three approval not required an anr plan for Myrtle Street I will let Peter introduce that thank you uh so we had an application uh for uh 0 94 Excuse Me 0 80 84 and 94 Myrtle Street this is the rest home on Myrtle Street um as you're leaving town um this is is going to be on your left hand side uh right now the land area consists of three lots um zero is vacant uh 84 is considered the rest home and then 94 is a single family house um and so right now they're

007trying to re orchestrate the they're trying to they're really in my eyes reorganizing the Lots um the two lots that have structures on them 84 and 94 uh they are creating two conforming Lots each lot has greater than 150 ft of Frontage and each lot has 30,000 square ft of Frontage uh lot it will the our parcel known as zero um that is um a fairly large lot consisent of two and a half acres um and so that does have 150 ft of Frontage and uh greater than 3,000 ft and because it is greater than 2 Acres it does not have to meet the rule of 22 but furthermore we do have the uh surveyor on the call uh Brian Brian Hill um Brian Hill comes um to the meeting tonight to from Land planning

008Incorporated and he is um going to show us um what the proposal is so Brian uh please feel free share your screen I also have an an anr on the table in the uh planning board uh members also do have 18 by 20 printouts and just uh before we get started I should have said the beginning that we obviously have three board members here Marcel Arona who is online is also one of our board members um Anna is going to be coming shortly and Amanda our alternate um member I think is going to be joining us a little later um in the evening as she can so just to make that clear for everybody um all right so we can look at this plan yeah Brian take it away please all right good can you

009see my screen okay I can okay so we have uh like like Peter said this is a very simple um anr plan uh I'll try to get through this quickly I know you have a big meeting tonight um so we'll start with lot three the single family home this is 94 Myrtle Street uh currently the lot line is this dashed line and so we're adding parcel a to uh 94 which makes it a total of 30,000 square ft the um the purpose here is to try to make conforming Lots um there are there is a setback to the garage uh the 15.8 the 9.3 those are existing non-conforming setbacks but the new lot line meets all of the all of the setbacks aside setback to the building um and then we'll go on to lot

010two lot two is the rest area lot this is number 84 and as you can see there's a total Frontage of 166.25 square ft um and we'll move on to lot one which is the Big Lot lot lot one has the minimum required Frontage um and it's like like Peter said it's over 2 Acres which means that it does not need need to meet the irregularity factor I should mention that lot one um lot two and lot three do meet the irregularity Factor the 84 and 94 um and so we have three uh Lots they're all accessed from Myrtle Street they all have Frontage and access to Myrtle Street there's uh there's no steep slopes or or or ledge or wet l or anything that would prevent access to lot one the vacant lot and

011uh lot two and lot three are obviously access over their existing driveways um so I think I touched on everything I know does anyone have any questions I just have one question I might be a question for Peter um the uh when you talked about the this what is it a shed or a garage over there that's um non-conforming because it was an existing garage yeah that doesn't have any effect because we're not dealing with that property we're not making a lot non-conforming no um because that because it's an existing condition and we're dealing with the other side of the lot is that correct right correct correct does anyone have any questions about uh what's Happening Here you know get just a a perer like a question that may not be um gerain to to

012to the plan itself but are I just wonder if there is this is just a reorganization of the pieces of land and is there if there's any plans for the structures that exist there at all I I don't know the I don't know the client's plan for this perhaps they intend to sell Lots or develop Lots I I don't really know but they wanted us to create conforming Lots got it thank you it's a mixed use because of the rest rest house and that is that why it's mixed use it's not mixed use the the the rest house I mean the rest house is existing so under permit approval s mixed uses what's checked it should be residential should it's not mixed use okay that's just the the the it's a residential a lot um

013the the the rest home is is a protected use under residential um and it's allowed and it's existing so that needs to be corrected that on just on the application yes they're just creating two conforming residential a lots here so is that something you'll just correct with the application yeah I can correct that with the application uh you know if the board wants we can we can come back at the next meeting and Bill and I can work to kind of work out that a matter um and he can they can submit a new application uh bill just to give you a heads up on the application process it it kind of slipped by but you we checked off mixed use under the uses there um and I I don't know if you were the

014one that actually did the application so so maybe but if the board would like a new application to be obviously a revised application it's a anr plan so there's no public hearing there's no notification uh we can do that uh just to make sure it's clean for both the applicant and the town um and then kind of move forward through that process the applicant in this case is the owner or it's prospective purchaser or tenant so this is the owner of the property so that what selected is uh prospective purchaser as well so right there oh the prospective purchaser so this this land is under agreement okay is that what bill is that what you understand that on the application you've checked off prospective purchaser oh I'm sorry the the attorney filled out the application

015I I'm yeah I'm not familiar with uh what they decided to go with so is is the name on the sheet um sadika last name sadik sadika is that the owner or who is that like I think that's our question right yeah I I don't have an answer to tell you the truth I was really focused on the lots to make sure that those were conforming I can tell you the lots that are being created are conforming uh but that's a good catch DEA so um you know obviously with the mixed use chucked off here you know we can table this and come back at the next meeting if that if that's appropriate and I can get the board qu uh answers for those questions yeah I think um because I kind of agree it

016would be a little odd that we'd approve something for somebody else's lot like I wouldn't want someone to be able to do that to my own house lot right so I think because the owner uh on the last page the owner's name seems to be Woods last name and that they are the the long-term Center for New England Incorporated so the irad city key maybe the purchaser it seems like so they they are there's an X right above their name correct but yeah this was what I understood was this was this application was by the owner but that does not seem to be the case it seems I agree so it seems like the applicant the applicant's agent who's from who's from Fletcher Tilton who I had a conversation with regarding the lots and the

017Conformity they are representing the buyer and the owner in this instance is the longterm Center for New England and and I don't know what the relationship is is I assume they have a pns that has not been provided yeah um but that we can request that and then at that point um what the overall end goal is for these three lots is is um is their their business uh but but as long as the lots are conforming that's what we're most mostly interested in so we we could make the anr decision contingent upon the purchase and sale then I I right I think because if they didn't well I again I'm just thinking if it was my house could catch de I wouldn't want someone to be able to file this right so we need

018some language that they're authorizing I think they are because they're they're signing they're signing above by signing yeah if the applicant is not the owner please have the owner sign above or submit a letter of permission to the application so I think it's presumed that if the owner is signing they're authorizing so um I I have the information on the long-term centers of New England from the Secretary of uh State's website so president Thomas E wood Treasurer John Harrington secretary Matthew Sweeny director Thomas Woods director John Harrington director Matthew Sweeny so Woods is one of the owners yeah Woods is he's president of long-term uh Center of New England and they own all three lots right now they own right now they own all three they own all three and three lots are conforming all

019three lots are conforming correct are are being made conforming are being made conforming yes as proposed in the plan they would they would be come conforming lots that is correct and under the anr statute that's the major that's that's the the hurdle that's the the bar um that they have to meet so then besides um besides the checking for the mixed use because it's a residential and not mixed use which is just I assume the person thought it's mixed use like there's there's a single family home and there's a group home so it seemed like there's two different uses kind of a misunderstanding of the term but it sounds like then that's the only thing that's off is that right mhm so we could approve a contingent on the clarification assuming that they were confused

020are you saying because they don't aren't on the same parcel cuz there isn't the Rest Home a different use uh you said it was a permitted use in the own yeah it's just that a mixed use generally talks about residential and commercial on the same property on the same property so um yeah so that's why it's it was that term was a little confusing for us and I believe the long-term care center is a use that's that's exempt under 40a excuse me 40 um section Section 3 of 4A so I think I would feel most com comfortable to to just come back at the next PL board meeting and take a look at it um bill is that would that be okay with you if we if we put this if we move this to

021the next plany board agenda I mean yeah I know the client's anxious to get this done but if we have to we have to um you know I prefer to if we could move forward it' be great but if we have to we have to okay so I'll leave it up to you guys yeah so it seems like unless I hear from anyone it seems like we don't have any questions or concerns about the actual moving of the lot lines but we want to make sure the application is clean because we have had applications come back or to us that we unclean in the past right that we had to clean up someone else's mistake so um it'd be best to make sure all of that is is clear so does anyone have any questions

022otherwise we'll continue it for two weeks and we'll take care of it then y I'll make a motion to continue the approval not require plan 084 94 mrtle Street to our next meeting which is May 23rd 23rd yes second that and a r vote an Anna teski I marel I Catherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall I okay so we'll we'll wrap this up in two weeks and have it done all right Bill we'll come back in two weeks but you and I can touch base uh uh early next week okay great all right thank you all right we'll see you all right thank you um moving on um to item number four on our agenda public hearings the first one is six Chestnut Street so Peter can you just let us know where we are

023with six chest Street sure so six chest Street uh the applicant and the applicant's agent is here uh Allan um six chest Street has um since we have seen six chest Street they went back to the design review and they submitted some new renderings um which are in front of everybody um and so uh just to make note of that and then the other thing is just to make reference to is that uh design Review Committee did send back a list of comments that are in everyone's folder that we can go through um and the applicant um applicants surveyor engineer Terry um has sent uh I believe a revised plan um moving the bike rack uh to a new location if that's correct um but I know that was part of the conversation with the

024design Review Committee um and the applicants agent is here to answer any questions or concerns um and that's where we stand tonight um to start to review the process So the plan in sorry the plan in front of us I see okay I see the bike rack mhm so the bike rack is in space 18 correct the bike rack moved from space 12 to space 18 yep um at our last meeting is that our last meeting that was a big that was a big change so and I think at the design Review Committee and we we obviously go through those notes um they had asked about turning at 90 degrees was that it correct yeah okay and I believe that was acceptable to the applicant yes yep um and then also the renderings uh were

025updated um and this is the first time the py board is seeing the new update renderings um as provided my my immediate reaction is that is very Texas looking Landscaping um and my second reaction is is that building across the street really look like that that looks like some sort of fancy apartment building that we have not yet approved no no no it is not correct we we we talked I'm distracted by that we talked about that a little bit before the meeting and it was talked about a little bit at the design review committing I did that that was the meeting I left our 10 60 discussion to attend so I did attend that meeting and yeah I think um their designers took some um Liberty Liberty artistic Liberty with the background that's a

026lot of window sites like so that building is not is not approved in the background we tend to be very specific about renderings I'm like whoa It's like a fancy looking Hotel thing yes so um if when we're ready if we want to go through the design review committee's list um I like I said I was there so any anything that needs interpret interpretation I you were there for part of it Peter you come out the end I was there for the part of it for the last meeting obviously I uh we ended the the plany board's meeting on that we were having and and I did jump on this meeting is this Landscaping rendering accurate to what design review is envisioning with the blooming trees and all that yes yes and no I mean

027um they showed these renderings and Kathy Rooney had talked about and and some of them were labeled I think again um the lush tropical plants in these in these programs it's often hard to represent present exactly the plant you're intending to put there the repertoire just isn't that big in a lot of cases so um but they were going to clarify um so there were exact plants specified that Becca I think had okay right because they were on the um correct so our conservation agent has put together a list and it's on our website it's all Native plantings and so um yes so the ones that were on the original plant on the original plant had been taken from that list Kathy Rooney's comment was that looking at the plants that were chosen she didn't

028think that some of them would survive that well in that location because as you know it's it's yeah it's completely open to the Sun so she was going to provide a list also from the Conservation Commission list so from the proper list of plants that she would recommend instead I do not believe we've received that list yet as far as I know I do not believe we have okay so that would be one of the things we need to get that list from Kathy Rooney she did say that she would provide it in order to so that they could swap out maybe not in the image because like I said it's hard to pick the exact Bush you know from these programs oftentimes but um put to swap them out on the plan with ones

029that she would recommend um does that make sense yes but so far that information hasn't been provided okay I mean overall I think that it looks good as far as seems to fit the the corner um I don't particularly have comments on the design elements because I think we're renovating a building that's already there so there seems like there's only so much that can really be done did you want to yes sorry go ahead Marcel no I agree with Anna I have no comments either okay then why don't we just uh run through the design Review Committee list um so under existing conditions of Butters there was the they had asked the question about the they had wondered about moving the dumpster and they made a note that the planning board had decided that the

030dumpster didn't need to be relocated um and that the owners were talking about um doing other mitigation to solve whatever rat problem is there because they don't want that problem either right so um and that and that was obviously seemed good us because we didn't want the dumpster closer to either road so um so that would still be go forward we can have that as a condition um some some of the notes that they have are just notes um they had asked for the design Review Committee had asked for non-permanent movable Planters um where possible close to the building um to kind of just add some more green close to the building um Terry um The Who last name I can't remember um the the site surveyor um had noted that the Planters can only

031be located in certain locations because of the the Wetland question um so even Planters sitting on top of pavement pavement um have to be carefully located so um and can't be in the the flood zone so he said that that's possible um but they can't just be anywhere we want they have to be in certain locations so I think the applicant was okay with doing that providing a few Planters um right out right in the front of the building movable Planters um to my understanding basically area in itself 24 the delivery truck no no for the emergency service oh okay so that was kind of dismiss really wasn't any are to add the Planters within area that would not basically aot right in front but then when we went to address the the flood storage

032issue those planter boxes still have to be accounted for within the flood storage and so talking to conservation those are element that are difficult to put the place in the front Okay so that's from conservation cuz last time on this on on the meeting they Jerry was saying that there was this little strip that it could be in I think it's a very thin strip okay yeah but also you have to take into consideration in the the flood storage component yeah of everything so I guess um looking at the renderings I guess the question is to the planning board is it important that there's more plantings in movable Planters somewhere out in front of the building I'm bringing this up because this was a design Review Committee um in their notes and some they had

033talked about um I I don't want to I mean for me it's a balance between the current space and the presentable like the new space so what I like is that there is more green space now in the front than there is currently um so as far as the planter I'm I I'm if the applicant is willing that's great but I'm not sure I'll require them I feel like there's there's adequate reasonable effort to add more green space than there currently is and that is good for me without the Planters but if the applicant is into planters go for it understood maybe some cactuses to go with the Texas them Texas theme you don't have to worry about the hot sun those usually survive even me at my house so anyone else have a y

034okay so I don't think the I I guess I'm saying I don't think we need to require it for this project in light of the additional Green Space I I agre I agree with you I think there's a lot going on this a lot going on in the site with the access that the fire department once and they're adding adding the Green Space would be much more than it is now and so um yeah might just be adding a little problem in there versus solving a problem so okay um but let me know if someone has a different opinion okay so the extra the next um point I'm on3 um on page two of the design Review Committee notes and this was a question about Safety and Security I thought this was an important Point

035um because once they build out the raised um the raised concrete curb part of this building you will be stepping right into the building not on a curb and then into to the building so um Peter I think you talked to Doug about this can you yeah so the other well not to go back to the Planters but the other situation that came up with safety right and so there's not going to be that that right now there's about a six in a 4 to six inch reveal um on what I would call the the podium to order your ice cream so that's going to be gone and so with that said safety did come up in front of the design Review Committee speaking with our Building Commissioner Doug Scott Becca Solomon our conservation agent

036we decided that the best there's two two options right number one there could be curb stops put in front of the building maybe two feet off the building so if any was to bump into them obviously they would not be bumping into the building Andor they could put ballards four feet on Center going across those windows and so it was really up to the applicant of what they would prefer most um but the Building Commissioner um did state that those were the two options regarding safety that could be implemented in front of the building um and so I think that is part of the conversation where if you get into the planter conversation is that somehow related to that like it's not related but I was design review thinking of the Planters as a safety

037feature I don't think so no I think they were just thinking about it as a a green I think some people do kind of cross-contaminate both of them however I think we have to put safety above Green Landscaping and can you kind of find a way to can you create a what's it called a Boward that has a green no they do have like rated ballards that can be Planters yeah I I don't know that we should be require them because they are possibly more expensive they also look nicer than stuff but yeah they do exist and and the size of them though is prohibitive because you're also within the flood zone that you would have to therefore calculate for more flood storage so as it is double-edged sword right when you come to okay

038how big of a ball and how big of a planting but from a safety concern two elements that they talk that I spoke to the Building Commissioner about was a curb stop that could be there and that would not have a negative impact on the flood storage and or you could put ballards in lining the front of the building for for for safety purposes yeah and it's um just as a doing some research I guess I um I went to Murphy's they're not open so I didn't get ice cream yet but um to just to look at what they had and so they had the um they had the what do they call C the curb stops curb stops and they do have parking I think that comes right in to where the people would

039wait and there is no curb so um that shows kind of that situation this is different we don't have parking right there right there but there is there is a building there so I guess the curb stops would be all along the glass correct but provide an opening for accessibility obviously you know um into the into near the door yes correct at the door correct that seems reasonable and important for safety so and obviously Doug will decide where those go yeah I that yeah to so that they'll be plac is there some kind of design element we should think about or they're all like standard what they look like they're very standard they're about 5T long you see them all over um typically they're painted in this area in in since I would just have

040them you know request them yellow um they they could be meltable over a fires like obviously a fire truck because also in that dry that that 24 foot aisle right you still want circulation for a fire truck right and so I think right here it's a it's a tight sight and you're just trying to manage you know a couple different instances I think they have 27 or 28 ft but like you said with to include the Stop and the 24 ft there's not there's not a lot of wiggle room there but do we need to put them around the bike racks in some way I see that that that was Rivia was concerned about that yes that was the other question since the bike racks are simply going into a parking spot it would be

041good to have some of these things kind of blocking the parking spot so that a car doesn't also try to go into the parking spot which makes which made a lot of sense I thought so seems reasonable so adding ballards to both the storefront and the bike rack area not ball the um curb stops excuse me curb stops all right any uh other comments on that everyone's good okay um all right so next um uh they they made a note about um painting on the pavement um that would be um I think as per the fire department you know whatever kind of striping they wanted on the pavement um they recommended white striping I'm not sure I assume it's either white or yellow you know for safety but I figured that would be as the

042fire department's purview um not knowing much about that myself um there was just a note about sight lighting um I think I don't know what kind of street lights or anything around the site but this the the building seems to have a lot of lighting around they seem to be adding a lot of lighting around around the outside of the building is that true that's a lot of wall conses in that building is it again decorative like the building across the street mostly dective we're not trying to no but at the same time um understanding the amount of light that is required that's a large site as well to make sure you don't have um those walls conses are not going to throw light Beyond a certain point but um I'm not sure if how

043you solve it until you have a photometric of some sort but the lights are going to be turned off during store hours right I mean at the stores well but you also won't have so many wall conses like that's shown on the rendering say it again it's the there are a lot of walls coners shown on the rendering light fixtures around the building all around that's not typical for a retail okay um so I'm not sure how is the is the question if there's enough light like in the parking lot like along the street yeah that's a good that's an interesting question well it would also say there is an a butter and we do have to be careful about light spillage right into someone else's proper un I mean we're one thing we've learned

044is business hours are not our purview right but I I would think that um the fire department or whoever is looking at the safety of traffic can think about that issue maybe that's more within their purview than ours but yeah and I'm also thinking trying to remember unless you guys are going to be open really late at night I'm not concerned about it do you know what I mean like yeah it's because you have that uh wet lens or whatever on the other side the river side and if it's really going to be dark and there are no really striping that's going to stand out at night at least in Winter times you probably have no idea when you're turning around the building if they're not sufficient but the pavement is going to change and

045there's going to be a row of trees there so yeah yeah and I don't believe there's any well I don't believe there's any sight lighting no lamp no street lights well there should be something on that street it's it's at an intersection there's got to be something there yeah yeah no there are street lights along Chestnut and Union they're not they're just not in the rendering I'm pretty sure there's light there I mean I I'm trying to remember what it's like like i' I've been to that gas station I think there's a comedian store there am I making that up yes yes Seasons yeah so I i' I've been there at night this area is pretty well lit at night yeah I think so too I'm pretty confident there's stuff going on so I think

046they're okay um fair enough so if we don't ask for a photometric study can we just say that the condition on light spillage particularly to protect there is an AB budding property you're concerned about the I mean that light doesn't seem substantial no but I'm just saying if we don't have a condition is there any way to protect if it becomes a problem well they're not adding any we can just say don't side lighting the condition can be no additional side lighting will be added beyond the rendering something like that I think that makes sense because the the the size it's an existing condition if they're going to add lighting that that would change the condition substantially then then I guess yeah you can make an argument about it I think what's being proposed here

047is extremely limited uh to the business so I I personally don't have a problem with it so basically we would make a condition that would say if you're going to add extra lights to the site itself that's up to come back to the perimeter the side okay so that can be in a condition because that can impact the neighbors yeah um okay um so I'm on page three now um talking about landscape um so this is where I talk about um they talking about um the list that Kathy's going to provide um of just recommending different species um I think that's points one two three four yeah so just um four is requesting I don't know if they're showing extra plants in the I don't know if they're showing right now extra plants in the

048corner but the renderings are showing it to be kind of filled out more than it is so requesting just some extra plants in there to fill it out where the sign is um [Music] and yeah and and to um if there's any if there's any appropriate tree obviously a small tree you know in that area it's pretty limited that Kathy would making those recommendations but just um so we' get that list and then um just swap out the plants in that area for something more appropriate um okay I'll just keep going people stop me if they have comments um next category was safety and accessibility they talked about putting the protection between the vehicles and the bik rack so we already talked about that that we'll have that done um um they had talked a

049little bit about the delivery area um and if it was possible to put in a different space I think in the end they agreed that the deliver delivery area is best where it is um let's see item three as noted above B baller do not propose to protect the building entry okay that was the Safety and Security question again kind of showing up a in a couple [Music] locations next page page four is um massing and scale design Review Committee takes no exception to the massing that's shown and the roof materials and textures um stucco vinyl siding and um roof metal panel um I think they way had a question is that do you know do they standing seam roof is that what they're talking about a metal roof it isal roof okay and usually

050there's like the seam that sticks up is that the kind of metal roof that they're talking about I want to say yes but I'm not sure okay so that might just be a clarification question with the architect is what they're we assume it says standing it says roof metal panel which maybe isn't a typical term I think what they meant to say is that existing is it is a metal roof and what we're on doing is replacing that with metal roof something similar yeah yeah the metal roofs usually come and I think they're either 12 I think they're 18 inch sections and obviously they do have about a 10 a 2in reveal where they're riveted together yeah where that seam is so it does stand up yeah and so I think that you know for

051okay go we can just get this we can get the spec on there that and then that's that usually takes care of that and then the colors I think are as shown because one of the things to be aware of is that the is that if you're showing a color in the drawings that's the color we expect it to be in the end right so if it's if it's white with a brown roof we expect it to be white with a brown roof okay some people were unclear about that and we've gotten some crazy colors that had to be corrected over the years right um that's right so um they had recommended a pal a sample pallet but we haven't asked that for Chase Bank or anybody else so we didn't um I don't think

052we need that for this pallet um for this project um let's see item two I think it's talking about the oh so item two is an they were talking about an idea about adding on on the on the site facing Chestnut streets the long new wall right um it's not a tall wall but it's a long wall so they were talking about the idea of putting hanging planters there like window boxes maybe that hang on the side of the building um as an effort to add more green space um to me that seems like a difficult thing to maintain because those things just if the smaller the container it is the harder it is to keep water in it and the plants tend to dry up in my experience it's a retail it's not a

053restaurant okay good point right yeah there's Aesthetics for every project type so getting to held up with attempting to force green seems a little excessive for this project for sure it's a retail store it's it's a grocery store it's not a restaurant where you have outdoor seating to say you need Planters to I that's a little excessive at least for me anyone else okay I mean I I like the idea that the they were thinking of uh design was thinking of making it inviting um but I think it it is a building and I think some of those things would be the applicant and the owner would say I want to improve my property and make it look nicer and over time they might do some of those things no I agree with I agree

054with deep and and Kate I I think I think we got to keep the request on on the right proportion to the project okay I I'm there as well I don't think we need plan um I mean to to me if if the applicant has money to throw around it's a very sunny site it would be nice to see solar there nice not required um so to me it's a massive improvement over what we have now and like I said we got a section of Green Space up front that's not there currently um so I like that movement anytime we come into a space and we make it more green I'm satisfied and I don't know if the building has to have Greenery on it it's a meat market it's not a I'm not sure

055it's a restaurant but like to me when I see a lot of green on a building or near a building I'm thinking that's more of like Garden space or um you know a farm space Farm Stand not necessarily a meat market now if there's a grocery store there and there's like produce maybe there's a theme there but again that's up to the owner okay I don't know if I would require anything on the wall all right understood um next question then is about the scones that are on that side of the building I think they're kind of all around the building and it's just asking that those are dark sky compliant which is kind of what we were it's not it's not exactly what we were talking about was sight lighting but that that they're

056mostly going the lighting is going down not up right well it's up and down lighting yeah it is the right ring is showing that yeah but there is a metal roof that is literally has an overhang that's probably going to cover that light so don't think there should be a concern on dark do you um DP you had made a comment earlier about the number of Lights do you think that it could be reduced or was that was that just a suggestion it feels a little too much so again I don't know if it was trying to make a beautiful rendering or is it calculated because Ty typically you won't have so many around a retail environment um and you don't have too much height as well so if it's Aesthetics trying to make a

057beautiful rendering I think that's what that's targeted I'll be very surprised you'll be landing up wiring so many lights conses on the exterior of the building so ask to do that yeah so I think it's well I think it's a matter of providing lighting around the building sufficient lighting because you parking on all sides and have people walking up to the store at least to the front so the lighting should be sufficient for that purpose but it also should be calculated to make sure you're not throwing money into something that's not going to be functional right yeah so I counted six G just thinking about it I've counted six gonets on the rear of the building right now if those six sconet are or and correct me if I'm wrong Deepa if those are five

058if those are 10 ft on Center that means you're going to have a 60 foot 60ft wide building right indoor you know coming in 10 from the sides then kind of starting it I think what we have to find out is on average right or just by rule of thumb and I don't know the answer is for the sconet that you're going to propose how far away from each other are they what what's the standard practice what is the light levels that they're going to throw out what is is that um so I'm not sure how you're planning to take it to the next level an actual construction but something to think about okay I mean there's a point there if there's like if they're all over the place it's going to be a little

059strange yeah but you want to make sure you're taking care of the safety aspect because you do have parking unfortunately on all four sides so you want to be careful and mindful of safety for people at least at the back of the building right so designing it with that care in mind as long as that's taken care of should be fine okay and and we can note that in the conditions as well about the lighting um okay going on to page five um just talking about signage so um I don't well I know they didn't they didn't look at signage um it wasn't a big part of their discussion um for the design Review Committee but signage um need there's a whole separate bylaw on signage that the sign has to meet so and and

060they have noted it and we can note it um and Doug will be looking at that in the um construction document so just something to be aware of when you submit the construction documents that there's a whole bylaw on signage that needs to for the for the sign that on that's on the street any other questions about signage what's the cow in the [Laughter] picture so ESS masc would be okay but that that is Way Beyond future planning not inial I think it's called a Texas loor yeah that's so the only the only thing I was going to say is if if you're going to be changing your plantings to something that is not texus related that cow will look very strange in a bunch of New England shrubs were just talks but okay I'm

061not sure who else spotted it but that's impressive you spot on purpose to see if yeah wow I missed the cow well yeah and I don't know it's like where's Waldo uh you know um I I I believe unless it was back a a little bit right I think in this picture the tow the cow would be on town property so so so I mean just to be clear I mean it's kind of funny but I think we have to say a condition the cow's not allowed until they come back to the board because it's if we're accepting these renderings as no I I agree I think I think they're okay with no cow Kate I'm going to let you write that decision that I would be okay with a live cow if the milk

062is sold and not postu yes you can write that condition I'll write that condition if there is a live cow all right all right open space um it might help with the with the flood plan so there's nothing there open space is is talking about conservation sight signage obvious just refers to the signage again um so is sorry is this a highway commercial Zone I believe so it is is that what it is yeah this um yeah and then I talked about rotating the bike rack I think in a lot of the drawings I think we talked about this last time that the bike rack is shown as a really a big bike rack for this location so it seems like certainly 8T of bike rack in one parking space is going to be plenty

063um and yeah I'm not not saying you need eight feet of bike rack I'm just saying that I don't think I don't see tons of people imagine the cow protecting the bike rack sorry got loopy on it's early it's been a long day yeah okay so um okay so talking about a wheel stop at the bike racks we already talked about that being a good idea um yeah and again it just is talking about the um the protective curb so I think that's so are they suggesting to rotate the bike rack I think right now like it is pad to the parking yeah I think we had it P to 19 ft deep so they were talking about turning it putting it deeper into the parking space and then with the accessible from the front

064versus well accessible from the back too but having the blocks in front so um there's more space between the bike racks and where the cars would yeah yeah sense again a little bit more safety um sure so all right so those are the so my notes are basically curb protection plantings and um the conditions of lights and cow I think that's I think that's pretty good and a question about the metal roof um but I think this is something Peter we can type up I can type it up and and Alan and I obviously Allen and I and the applicant can work through these issues and you know I think um you know if appropriate to the board I'll start you know drafting up a uh conditions in in a in a site plan approval

065document and and we can kind of get those ready for the next meeting do that go with everybody okay yes okay then in that case um we will be looking do you have any comments for us okay come back for the cow all right in that case we will be continuing this until May 23rd May 23rd I will make a motion to continue six Chestnut Street site plan approval application to May 23rd second that and call vote Anna tuski I Marcela I Katherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall I so um yeah so I think that's a lot of progress and we're getting very close right thank you y you got to stick around all right um we're really entertaining today tonight so all right thank you and we'll touch Bas but just you know you

066talked to Terry and your architect and we can just answer those questions and we'll move forward right cool all right have a great weekend all right next on our agenda is 151 Main Street this is the um Tap Room at The Old Firehouse uh yes where are we so we have some new renderings in front of everybody uh and we have some um site plans so there's they're scattered around the table I think everyone should have a full set um however so 151 Main Street so they did uh send this back in a revised um accessible parking spot which was the big um one of the big elements that we were asking for construction related R and then there are some construction related documents that have been updated on the call tonight we have John

067mun and Allan is it Allan waight um he is here tonight um and he can kind of walk through the updates uh from this please do note that um one of the elements that I did request um from receiving this this this document was just a cross-section and it's just a minor detail uh in the element so hope so hopefully we can kind of get that um but tonight obviously we have John and Allan and I will let them speak and give us an update on the project as a whole um and uh and kind of go from there so I am making John and Allan co-hosts so you can now unmute yourselves and Allan and John please take it away uh and update the board with any uh updates that you do have sure

068can you guys hear me okay uh yes oh good I stole my wife's uh Apple earbuds and I've never used them before so uh I was nervous uh thank you for your patience over the last eight weeks um you know we filled you in the backstory with the architect leaving the company and the setbacks that that caused for what is a relatively uh simple revision um so what we did was on the right hand side we move the door uh to better accommodate a handicap parking spot with both access to um on both sides of a car that would theoretically be parked there so they'll be able to get in and out on F the left or right side with 5 F clearance on both ends and not impact um what is going to be

069the Beer Garden area and in addition to that there was some previous questions on the uh about the rendering for the front patio um and what that was going to look like and we kind of talked through that before and we reflected it in the revision that it's going to we're going with ford concrete which will match the existing um Foundation uh the size of that is going to be 44 feet long um and about 24 in high so 2 feet high and it's going to be set back 15 feet from the building the 15ot setback is reflected in one I think page seven of the architectural drawings and what am I missing there the depth of that the wall itself is going to be 8 in so very standard retaining wall um that we're

070then back filling and that is not going to be a seating area um mentioned before that we're putting uh relatively lowprofile black planter boxes across the front of it and it's really more designed to just keep being able to open the garage doors let some air in in an inside outside field without worrying about people kids mainly running into the road uh so we're going to put games out there cornhole lad doll things like that more than seaing um so that's more it's not it's not uh the most profitable space because it's no se but from a design perspective in a functionality perspective we really liked it um so we went with it and I don't think there was anything else on the revisions that we did it was relatively minor which made the eight

071weeks talk yeah I think the um just just may uh I think the the three things maybe for me are and I know we already talked about the dumpster and we went through that last time but in the end we need to make sure you have a site plan that's submitted with your package that shows the dumpster in back like like I said I know it's going to be provided it's working with the town for it but we always just need a plan to show where it is and I don't think it's on this set of drawings right it's it's not on this side of drawings but it just needs to be something we can include with the package right it doesn't have to be a formal site plan we just need to know where

072that thing is um because we'll be talking about it in the decision um okay and the other thing which Peter had started to talk about was that just that little you guys remember when we did the um outdoor seating area for tjs there was just the little detail MH that showed what the patio looked like and so what we're looking for I think what the design Review Committee talked about and what we talked about is just to have this really simple detail understanding the the patio um on the building side and then it hits this concrete curb it goes up I think you said about 8 Ines and then it goes down but it doesn't go down very far um so so I can just be I'm writing this down I want to be clear

073on it are you talking about the front side or on the seating side the front side so in between the thing that's blocking the kids from you know kind of going through y so it's just it's a little it's a did you did you show them my example yes I did I did send I said I sent John and Allen the example I believe I sent Allen the example it's it's you know really just a crosssection that shows you know if you cut 90° obviously through that patio how tall that wall would be and what's it going to look like um and with the Planters I think from the rendering standpoint you show a planter box that's 40t 44t long and so the question is on the on the on the construction drawings you know

074the planter boxes are boxes in their spaced you know eight you know maybe maybe they look like they're they're four feet long and they're you know two feet apart from each other and so I think the question is just what do we what what should we expect out there um because the the drawings the architectural drawings and the renderings are not speaking to each other yeah both can be valid solution but which which one are you actually building right because they don't match and the other thing that I'm on this um on this new plan is that so on the rendering You're just showing two big glass doors wood doors they look very nice but on the but on the plan it's two doors plus two s side lights so it's like you know which

075which one are you building like which what which one is right and so I don't know I mean I didn't yeah I didn't catch that on the this you're talking about the lighting on the side of it I'm talking about the door from the handicap parking space going inside your your side door so the rendering in the in the plan yeah so the rendering doesn't match the plan and I assume the plan is correct I mean I I guess as as an architect I'm always going to assume the plan is correct versus the pretty picture but I don't know that that's true um and we I just want it to be we're just looking for so that we know what's being built right there's not right now there's two ideas here so okay well we'll

076take it back and we'll revise it and uh yeah but um yeah so it's again it's it's it's similar actually to the last project it's just that we need if we're going to be taking a a vote on a package we need to make sure the package is clear and that's really that that all that it's about so does anyone else have any comments um I definitely agree with it Trisha we need a little more detail about this patio seating um but with the way this is rendered with how it's marked up on that a102 B that door is opening into a sidewalk so if I'm walking from page north towards this door I don't have room to get into that door until I really squeeze myself through that outdoor patio space and I don't

077think that's the typical way of doing it your door cannot protrude into a circulation space more than 7 in so this door is almost 3T into that walkway I'm not sure how accessible that entry is if that's your main entry into the building I I'm not sure I was kind of looking at it earlier so the the sidewalk is is five foot the sidewalk is 5 feet yep the door is hold well it can be hold open in summers but cannot be in Winters so that door is going to until it's opening 180° which is not how this is drawn like I don't have way of getting into this drawer until I step out into that and then walk back in here but you're talking about if the door is held open correct um is

078that I'm sorry I just want to make sure I know which door yes by this one okay got it that you're talking about the side door the you have the outoor patio so we're looking at sheet a 102b right it's the B it's a double door coming in from the accessible parking spot John yeah um I guess I don't understand that because to me that looks accessible uh you get the 5 foot wide clearance there on the patio uh on the sidewalk there and then you you know I don't know how else you would I guess I don't understand what you're saying is that the main flow for folks to come in is using that 5ot strip the way people would come in in addition to your accessible folks that yeah I mean there's two

079there's two points of Entry uh you know how people choose to get in there I mean there's a sidewalk which is certainly one way um they may not choose to do that and just walk behind the cars like a lot of parking lots and directly into the um into the door but the door is a double door so you can lock one side of it and then the other side is accessible to the right by virtue of that being locked is that held open or is that uh is that door closed in the sense I guess it's not I think the door is typically closed right so I think I'm not I'm not sure I'm for for one thing I'm not sure um usually it's set in it's never set into a circulation path like

080that but you I so are you saying it should be opening into the inside of the building it should be set the door should be set in so that this path is clear open the big path right now that's not how it is I mean now that I understand what you're saying I think I understand what you're saying my my non-architectural translation of what you're saying is that essentially the invitation to go into the building is only this way coming well that's a park can't really go the other way but that's a parking spot yeah that's kind of weird what's the parking spot here right yeah that's an access but this is open no that's open that's not that's open that's open that's open yeah so I think I think actually we have to look

081at or have to have Doug Scott look at it because I I mean parking lots obviously are not my specialty but I did go back and look at the regulations and I I thought it was okay I think the drawing is a little deceptive because typically that's a three- foot door and it's going more than 3 feet into a 5 foot sidewalk I think it's a it looks a little strange um looks like a really Open Door yeah so um so I I think I think we need to look at that I I know um there are certain circumstances like Deepa said that it can only protrude a certain amount into a space um but I'm not sure if that's like an egress Corridor which this would not be um so um it's just something

082I mean sounds like we need Doug to look at it who's Doug Doug's our Building Commissioner the building commissioner so yeah so it just we just want to make sure it's I think it just has to be it just has to be to code and so it's just um making sure that it is maybe Doug can take a look at it and say Yes Doug Doug can we'll take Doug looked at this already and obviously okay in this I don't know if this but I'm going to point out to this I'll point out I'm going to point out this matter to him and then I'll get a specific answer back and then obviously John sorry Doug raised he raised that as an issue before and he's had the rendering for since last Tuesday and hasn't

083brought it up as an issue which doesn't mean that it's not but he raised the problem with the door previously uh but it was more around the sidewalk having being 5T wide um and then the door he didn't he had the solution for it which I'm assuming the architect did because Doug when he got the rendering didn't bring it back up okay you know what I'm going to draft an email tomorrow and I'll and I'll send it to Eugene uh Jamie and Allen and I'll obviously have Doug cced on it and then that's something also you can forward to your to your to your architect and if your architect wants to provide or point out the code that he used to design the door I think we can have this discussion within the next two

084weeks um so we can kind of get a get an answer for everybody on it because I'm not you know this isn't my specialty and and and I think it's outside of the realm of uh but I think it's definitely for safety matters I think we definitely just need to get a clarification on it yeah agre it's very like I said it's not in my realm either it's very detailed looking at ad I won't say that I'm an expert on it trust me I'm doing this from eight to five last two months okay so so deep deep deep spotting my attention if Deepa spotting something she may she may be the the voice of the most experience here so you also need an ada8 ramp at that location so that uh from your sidewalk I

085don't know how what height that I think it's flush right is it flush I mean is that a raised sidewalk I don't I don't know the sidewalk is raised but the access the door I mean it has to be flushed I mean so we're not going to do you know I mean it has to be flush so there's there's no real option there so uh you mean from the point of entry in there so we didn't reflect that in the drags cuz I'm not so when you do that so when you do that if a wheelchair has to get out of that car and get into that door you need that ad ramp to get to the door yeah right yep so when you do that your dimensions are going to fight a little bit

086so something to check into yeah we'll have to grade it out and make sure that it's um accessible 100% yeah I we just won't be able to open if it's not you're also I think to dea's point you're adding a ramp yeah it's when you say ramp it's like literally a curb that slopes and three directions because you have traffic moving around so yes so they they have a note there that says provide curb cut which may be what they need but not really the right term oh go ahead yeah and I think it I think it already exists too if I might be misremembering it but there it was an existing handicap spot there and there is access to the front of the building now um so I think it's just a matter of

087working with the existing access and and neatening that out a little bit because it is that is a handicap spot now I can I can I can confirm that I've I've walked down there too many times um and then also there's a ramp in the front of the building um as well okay do you have um is there any other questions on this project just just kind of those little clarifications really I was trying to rec collect this front elevation in addition to the raised uh area seems to have gotten tweaked a little bit or is it just my imagination I don't I don't remember that awning before seeing that is that has there been an update to the front elevation I don't think so have there been any changes to the front elevation besides

088the wall yeah I mean we're going to we're going to back fill it which is you know the point of the the wall uh to level it out to the existing grade of where the doors open no I mean on the like the rendering of what it looks like on the front uh no we didn't really change that okay thing it's just paint yeah maybe the flags are missing something is feels like elements added here but maybe just my imagination we haven't looked at it for a while probably yeah sorry about that um so any other questions on this that I mean no no particular questions I I did note the I read the letter from the applicant to Peter of April 25th seems like the applicant has had some bad luck um and kind

089of slow down in the process and so it seems like we have some good energy behind this project um are there I guess challenges that the applicant is experiencing that we as a planning board should be aware of that we can like is there anything that we need to do to assist in the movement of this uh no just the clarity around what it what you guys want on this meeting um is great and the same thing for um I'm going to go back to Doug to and ask them just to make sure that we're good on everything so we can go back one more time and make sure that we get it right and I think we have that and I'm going to follow up with an email um just to make sure that

090we have everything right before we take it back and and fix it next week okay yeah I would say that that list is and jump in people if I got this wrong is the making sure the handicap accessibility is shown correctly um the um making sure that that exact same door is shown correctly between the rendering um and the was it the the lights on the door was that what no the the door on the on the drawing the door it shows two doors and beside each door is a window like a a side light oh but on the rendering it's just two two glass doors which is great I they don't I don't need the side lights but I'm just wondering are you making a big opening or are you making a smaller opening

091when you go to make your open yeah that was that was that was 100% me who learned how to photo shop after I got some bad R drinks and went on I got Adobe U artificial intelligence is wonderful and I put the door in and the wood door and I I frankly I really like it so that is a change from what now it's a matter of making that it sized up right we get it so you are think with you there so you are thinking there's going to be Sid lights that was the initial intent and now it's like okay can we find a door that matches that wonderful Brown door which I really really enjoy okay with the SIDS um okay and then um Jamie when you tried to photoshop that you forgot

092that the lentil got cut in between are the one Edge is not complete so Photoshop to dos and owns and yeah and then the third the third thing is just that detail through the curb the curb and the Planters um so it's nothing and do you need that patio outdoor seating entry exit layouts the patio outdoor seating does not I don't no the outdoor seating is just going to be movable seating on the side of the building there's no seating on the front of the building yeah for this layout do you need don't you need a layout the I I don't think we need a layout I are they just movable I think the on the outside it's just movable table seasonal and right and and in the winter and in the um in the

093winter it's parking so in the winter it just goes back to a parking lot in the summer they're going to use it as um seating is that right that's right yeah so nice memory so um okay so I think it's I think it's just those three things but we'll make sure that we have a list of the F yeah no we'll follow up with the list and we'll be in in contact and um and and for this project I already do have a decision drafted and so I can circulate that decision we can start taking a look at it uh and then um and then I'll work to collect all the remaining information with with Jamie and excuse me John um I read I'm reading off the screen uh John and and Ally yeah yeah

094so and that decision is one that I know I have already went through based on comments that we've talked about with the board from the beginning in this project and we can send it out and it's just the basic sounds good one list of basic criteria not the four list that we've had to go through before okay so okay so again almost there just the little details so so I'll make a motion unless there's more should I make a motion to continue are there any other questions from the applicant no but thank you for asking okay thank you I'll make a motion to continue 151 Main Street site plan approval application to May 23rd 23rd second that and a roll coote depai and t i i Katherine Jers and Trisha Kendall I so we will

095see you on the 23rd thank you appreciate it thank you all right so next on our agenda um 13 Joan Drive I believe this is continuing but I'll hand that to you Peter correct so uh 13 Joan drive just for everybody's uh information is a project where they're proposing to put um two uh solar canopies over the existing parking area and um what I can tell you is that we've met with them we had tech review meeting uh this week and there was a question that came up uh regarding easement and it was a water and sewer easement and so I did not have the clarification on that um from the applicant and then also um from the uh water and two Department uh so with that said I verbally uh spoke with the uh

096applicant uh yesterday and uh late yesterday after pulling the easement from the reg registry of deeds taking a look at it trying to figure out kind of where this kind of came from uh because because it's something that didn't come up into uh conversation till late in the process um and so with that said the applicant and I both felt it was best um to continue this project to the next planning board meeting and then that would allow me two weeks to take the application uh and look at a little bit further with the Water and Sewer Department regarding the water and sewer easement that runs through the property it may be the fact that the prop the easement that was marked on the plan that the ease that the that the solar canopy is

097going to be erected over is a private easement and so therefore it is not a town sewer easement so it would be kind of a moood point but not knowing that uh yesterday then into today uh and not having the time to meet with the Water and Sewer Department um the applicant verbally requested a continue until May 23rd I did follow up with an email yesterday I've not got a response um however I will put that in writing uh tomorrow and file a continuance with the town clerk so I have the plans here and I can hand them to everybody um for everyone to take a look at um however um at this point the applicant um in in myself felt like it was the best move was to kind of press pause get the

098right answers regarding the easement and then come back at the 23rd and and propose with uh the applicant engineer and and do a full presentation any questions might be a good idea if people aren't familiar with that complex to just take a drive through there um just so we're all you know I don't think there's a official a need for an official site walk or anything like that but it's a it's not like Dairy Queen where we've all been you know it's a site that maybe not all of us have been to and just to note uh to the planning board uh there's a new own there's a owner a ownership group a new ownership group took ownership of that project uh excuse me property about 2 to three years ago um there's a new

099management company there and so part of their effort is to put you know to make investments in this property um they are um completing a project to put solar on the roofs and so they're just doing that right now uh they do want to put solar in the parking lot um which is going to be proposed at the next meeting um they are fixing up and making some improvements to the pool area uh and then the other thing they're doing is they're trying to upgrade some of the uh Mechanicals in the uh throughout the facility and so uh it's been a fluid conversation with the new applicants excuse me with the new owners with the new management company um and so this is just a step in the process for the new M the new

100ownership company to to make some um some Investments within that property so um we know solar is a big thing that we always talk about and so after finish the the the job into the project to add rooftop solar this is the next step regarding solar on that property all right so we looking to continue this I guess until the 23rd as well right that is correct I'll make a motion to continue 1 Joan a drive site plan approval application to May 23rd second that and a roll call vote and iel I Catherine jerse and Trisha kendai all right continue to the 23rd and now our big item of the night um 10 to 16 Main Street discussion so um Anna do you want to run with this one I I missed the second half

101of the meeting before though I think I I think I filled out my fair share and before you jump in I just want to want to I'm not prepared to run with it but I can call on with it okay I set the table right as I would like to say set the table um and amander I'm going to send you some renderings I I sent it to Marcelo I didn't understand you were going to be uh via Zoom tonight but I'll take care of this in a second so with that said um I did collect all um documents and I did send it out kind of late today uh but I prepared it it's all in one uh Word document and it's in front of everybody uh and and amander M you guys did

102receive this um um just regarding the the uh addendums um we did make a map of the downtown um alvro did put this together and so that was a element now there's a couple things here that I just kind of want to show everybody so this this um MH rendering was a rendering that was that was spoken about uh at the last plenty board meeting that we we liked it was it was really positively received during the pl Bo public hearing so that was um excuse me the conceptual Main Street Street Escape of the ashon Mills and this is dated March 7th 2023 this is part of the document that I did add in then the second element I did uh bring in was the um site plan concept ashle Mills and this is dated

103February 17th 2020 3 so this one that I have up here on the 8 and half and 11 predates the handdrawn sketch by about a month month and a half but both elements I think were received from the planning board and off obviously both of them do have that project lining up uh with Pleasant Street great and so then furthermore I do I did add in the uh Myrtle Street View of a project right here for the current project nope this is all this is all the project that was in front of the planning board y um so this Pro that this is just a project that I added in um and obviously renderings that's that's old this is old that's old okay yeah bad not that one bad bad so this one's up yeah

104no and then the other element that I did print that I don't have a copy of yeah is there is a rendering I think DEA you may no you're not picking it up uh it's the one Kate has Kate it is about um the uh walkway in the back at one point in time there was a proposed River Walk and so that we were excited about they everyone was excited about yeah where is that we have a picture of that it it is in um I did print out three copies of of each for the Riverwalk is it is it part of it might be part of that yeah it's the one on okay yep it's that one all of this stuff correct but not this piece yeah this is the old piece that's the

105old piece so that piece is not going to be added in but the River Walk which you have in your hand that was I thought one of the one of the documents that we did speak of that we did mention I know obviously looking at this um document the river played a big role obviously in some of our comments and so I did just want to bring that to the table as a document in a rendering that we were in review of um and so uh at this point I did collect everything um that letter I I did not try to format it yeah you just threw it I just threw it together one compiled document and I tried to kind of move it forward okay and so that's where everything kind of stands right

106now yeah I mean I can Trisha what I can do is I can kind of introduce us to how we got here based on the last meeting what we had in mind what I remember and then I guess I can introduce my section with Amanda the one that we worked on and then we can talk about how we want to go through this right actually might that maybe what do you have in mind no I think actually that might be a good idea that um we just go through the document yeah oh sorry deot we didn't because you weren't at the meeting you lucky dog you didn't get homework well you might get some homework tonight T Oklahoma can I to in a different time zone um so yes so maybe we go through it

107and actually it might be good to have uh deepa's uh fresh eyes right on it um but maybe each of us we can just go through it yes and when you get to your section you can explain your section and what what kind of you did so the one thing I was going to say is what we used as a model for this is West Newberry right but we are our own community so we get to kind of do it our own way as well so the last meeting the format that we came up with on kind of for ourselves was this little blurb that you see at the top of Peter's draft where we thought of having a section with documents having a big picture section having some contextual sections and then going right

108for the site um so Amanda and I worked on the M the document section and the big picture now in drafting the document section we as a board need to talk about what is the purpose of the document section is it more like a reference guide for the state hey State we paid attention to all of these things or or is it also like an exhibit thing where certain exhibits like for example the documents that Peter pulled are they just like for our reference point to reference that we review them or are there particular documents we want to present to the state as an exhibit so that is up for discussion tonight because the way Amanda and I drafted it was more like this is our reference guide look we we are really well informed

109we reviewed all this stuff however looking at some of the stuff Peter brought we might want to think about hm maybe we should present like five exhibits to support our documentation for example we could have this particular March 7th 2023 visual three stories that we all sort of were uh positively excited about or excited about there was positive energy around and maybe we can have one just like this to represent the current project that some are defining as five stories some are defining it as five plus 1 equals six stories which would look very very different right so I'm just kind of throwing it out there that we as a board need to decide like do we need exhibits or not is there a benefit to that or not um because right now these are

110just reference documents um so that's kind of one thing to think about I don't know if we want to talk about that at the end um yeah I think maybe we go through it and and because there might be places where this makes more sense once we get a general and obviously the reference documents that Amanda and I chose were some of the ones that we had discussed at the last meeting and then those that we referenced in our big picture analysis so we started with um section basically the introduction section that we literally copied out of the West Newberry section that's how they start their their memo um that they're in receipt of the application and that they're now submitting comment right and to be honest with you I have not double checked that

111their citation but I'm confident it has not changed in four years um so I will double check that the lawyers did not double check that citation um then as far as documents are concerned we had talked about the fact that hey we're referencing the detailed map of Ashland the photos of the building right now um the photos of the river and the bridge right now then we have our zoning bylaw from 2021 that's the one that I think Trisha section references a lot and we called it planning document so that was intentional because um if anyone has attended was it last night I have my nights confused whatever it was the 40b meeting um regarding this project um it's important to kind of understand what is our not Authority but what is the jurisdictional ability

112for us to impact either the approval of of a 40b project or conditions and planning is very important so we we call these planning documents planning document number one for the town of ashin that we reference is the zoning bylaw from a few years ago planning document number two that shows some planning elements in the town is the demolition bylaw planning document number three which is in progress is the proposed ashin historic district documents that we I think saw a few meetings ago we're referencing these to show the state hey we are aware as a board that we've been planning for downtown and we are aware as a board that we're continuing to plan for downtown this is important to us as a community um then there were memos from the planning department relative to

113special to Shi um to affordability um the most relevant memo the the most recent one that I could find was March 1st 2023 um and that's the one that included the chart that you'll see later where Amanda and I talked about how great we've done and how we were in Safe Harbor Etc um so that comes right out of that memo and any reference to Safe Harbor is literally cut and pasted right out of that memo um that's our key reference point to how well we've done then we have have um the current owner original renderings which Peter some of them he printed like the March 9th is the one that Peter printed for us um there was also a later one May 5th which we liked less remember how we really got excited about

114March 9th but then the following meeting they showed up with one that was slightly different where things looked a little bit different like the color scheme was a little off so I think that one there was another one that happened right after after it and then we started to compare the two and then they started to ask for continuances um so I we reference both the I call this the preferred rendering and then the modified rendering that's related to that because really at the end of our process we were looking at preferred and slightly different and we were like talk comparing them um then there is the Contin letter of March 31st which um talked [Music] about um the owner um the owner's attorney had mentioned the progress we had made the collaboration the positive

115the positive stuff that was happening um and the agreement to our vision not agreement but acceptance of her vision so that's in there and then there was a memo oh and then I I added two potential memos that we could create for the state because the last um memo on affordability is from March of 2023 more than a year ago I don't know if we as a planning board would want an updated document to sort of explain what has happened after we went out of safe Safe Harbor safe is that was called Safe Harbor Safe Harbor thank you and like what the updates are because it's been more than a year if we wanted to we could add a memo on on that we could also create a memo if we wanted to on all

116of the money coming into downtown like all of the infrastructure that we've improved the River Walk that we've improved um Amanda and I just didn't have all those details and we didn't have time to bug Peter about it but it might be worthwhile for the state to kind of get a get a summary of like hey ashin has really focused on making downtown look beautiful right all this money pouring in all this effort all of this stuff coming Underground and all that all that um then we had talked about using Trisha's colorcoded document train it that hopefully we can find I'm trying to find I'm sorry and then there's the chapter 40b handbook for zoning boards of appeals which we would not print but that is the document that I think I referenced the last

117meeting and we wanted some sort of official guide so the state knows that we're not just like making the stuff up we've we're grounded in some kind of official doation um and it looks like Peter added in yellow the March 7th one which is actually already I think I called it March 9th uh Peter calls it March 7th but it's the same document y um and the February 17th which is just a reflection of the earlier um so anyway so that's the document section the idea of the document section would be all of the other sections that were written if you guys reference documents we should add them to that section right so that it's reflective of all of your stuff too um any questions about the document section I think so okay um and

118then Amanda and I worked together and truly together we talked then I drafted a piece of it she did a lot of editing really cleaned it up and then she really help me finish it so I can say this was a true like true team effort um so the way we started the general comment about the project is we grounded ourselves being lawyers in what the lawyer said at the 40b meeting which was that if you look at other examples of projects where conditions are strong or denied applications some of those focus on Town's efforts to move towards affordability downtown projects s tend to be sensitive I think he mentioned a Cape Cod case that involved downtown um and also planning elements showing that the project is contrary to the town's planning Elements which is

119why we refer to those planning documents as one 123 to kind of focus the state on planning elements of what's happening in our town um maybe the fourth planning document is the the zoning that Trisha's section references that could be planning document four because well actually it's there as number One never mind it's right there already um anyway so we grounded our general comment in that like I don't know if you guys have had a chance to read it or if you like how do you want to go about that um the general comment before we get to a yeah I guess we could all read that General comment it's just two paragraphs yeah maybe it's worthwhile I can no read it out loud if it's easier for the public I can read it quickly

120uh for the last decade the town of Ashen has demonstrated commitment as a community to adding significant housing including affordable units to housing inventory furthermore the town has made significant investment in the rization and Improvement of a downtown infrastructure through both of these efforts the town has prioritize a development Vision that Embraces the small town feel and historic features of the town of Ashland and this should say of the downtown in the town of Ashland the focus should be on downtown in the town of Ashland while acknowledging um the critical need for creation of affordable housing in fact without certain unfortunate circumstances outside of the town's control the town would already be well over the 10% threshold that would create Safe Harbor for purposes of 40b in addition to these big picture considerations this specific

121application is for a project that is not simply anywhere in Ashland's downtown rather it's at the key entryway into downtown and was filed during a gap in the safe harbor that existed when a project at the site was before the Ashen planning board and which might return should certain projects already approved by the Ashen planning board move forward for construction the spirit of the 40b legislation is to increase housing where it is most needed Ashland is not a community where this need has been ignored in fact we have experienced incredible recent growth specifically in large housing developments with a large focus on affordable housing we are not a community that is turning its back on the purpose or intent of 40b so we wanted to like ground our start at ashin has done everything possible

122to develop a lot and downtown is different downtown is unique and we kind of focused on downtown right away as being different from our overarch goal for the entire Community to build build build which we've done really really well that's the heart of like how we wanted to start it we wanted the state to see from the get-go this project is smack down town that's meant to be different and Ashland has already done everything it possibly can to develop 40b is not for us 40b is for a community that is failing right we're not that Community that's kind of the way we're trying to present it um so then we moved into three sections a b and c we wanted to give context for the prior application so that the state has an understanding because

123the current application still involves the same property owned by the same person so we wanted to give context that's a we also wanted the state to understand that for the entire duration of the initial project in front of us we were in Safe Harbor from the point of application to the continuance request um um and we wanted the state to see Safe Harbor meant these were our numbers we were either really close to 10% at 9 point whatever one or we were about to overcome it um and then C is ashin has been planning for its unique downtown right we have planning elements for downtown so again what Amanda and I are doing is we're starting the argument off with those key elements that have been successful in other communities in strong conditions or denials

124which J planning elements downtown and all the effort on affordability we kind of wanted this to start there um so a is the prior application before the Ashen planning board we call it Mr Gordon Ashen property so it's really clear who's who um background and the historic history of well first of all Amanda do you want to add anything on the general comments before I go on is Amanda is Amanda unmuted we can't hear her I just want to make sure I give her a chance to speak on the documents and the general comment I apologize Amanda you are now a co-host and you can unmute yourself thank you um no I I think everything makes sense so far um apologies for making you unmute me Peter but at least it's okay it's my fault

125I'm trying to look for something and I'm have Dr it out yeah Amanda I'm just kind of talking so I if you if you want to jump in at any point I'll make sure to give you time but if you want to just let me know um so prior application background and the history of proposed projects at this site is key for context I think I should say proposed project not projects while the current 40b application under review is made by Mr Engler the building is still owned by Rich Gordon a longtime interested party familiar to the asham planning board Mr Gordon asham property submitted an application from mixed tues development that's key mixed use because later Trisha talks about that but we're not going to read every we're not going to read the whole

126thing though right so okay I mean we'll never you know we'll never get there okay do you want me to just stop and well I mean can you summarize what ab and so um so you can you can see that during the year that we work basically during the year that we worked with that applicant we came up to a to a project that we liked which is the March 99th or March 7th document then we got the May 5th document then we were in the middle of comparing the two and then we got our first long continuance that continuance you can see the language from the attorney that was very constructive and positive that hey everybody's on the same page we're moving in the right direction after that we got another continuance and then

127the project was withdrawn right and I put in there that we did not know why I don't recall ever receiving anything from the applicant explain the withdrawal in any way but the premise there is we had good collaborative work in the one year that we had and we got to a collaborative place and then the project goes away section B we were in Safe Harbor during that entire time from the point of the application of July 19th 2022 to the date of the continuance request of May 31st we are in Safe Harbor Safe Harbor ends 2 Days Later post continuance request on August 2nd 2023 so essentially why is that there because Ashlin did everything right literally we did everything right we were in Safe Harbor we were collaborative we were working on this project

128collaboratively we were doing everything by the book and by things outside of our control we lost Safe Harbor literally within two days of the continuent request and then there's a section right out of the March 20 23 Shi memo that shows the state hey look how great we were doing right um then we move to Ashland has been planning for its unique downtown we list off of all the historic buildings that when you enter downtown ashin coming south from Route n and the pike which are the key Metro West Regional highways you go by the mill buildings from the 1800s and essentially you're entering our founding ERA this should say that we were Incorporated actually in 1846 and there's all these buildings from the 1800s the mill buildings being that first introduction into this Mill

129uh 1800 downtown that we are actively trying to protect and honor that history that has curb appeal and charm and the Aesthetics of Ashland um and then it goes on to the fact that um this particular project is contrary to those planning elements that Ashlin has undertaken and we have large uh housing complexes everywhere else in in Ashland that's where they belong we've done a really good job doing that we have zoned for it in other areas of town we did an incredible job Zoning for it at 126 we zoned for it at Avenue of the Americas basically our town has done everything right 40b is not for us that's the premise of this section um Amanda have I missed anything no I I mean I think we I think Anna and I both heard

130um both the attorney and then also um the developer on Monday night and losing or Tuesday night I'm losing track of my days of the week I think it was Tuesday Tuesday um and I think the not about barnable and the developers noted about you know I think he um noted later in the evening that you know Eastern Massachusetts is a little bit different and I think Anna and I just wanted to emphasize that like you know if there are successful um conditions or denials on planning bases which we are think we have every you know bit of evidence like all of our planning efforts in this area um I think we just really wanted to provide the context of it's not to the exclusion of creating affordable housing and you know it's not that

131like 40b is not for us it's that it's that like we we could be back in um Safe Harbor you know if any sort of random situation resolves that we that are through no control of the planning board of a town it's not the planning board shooting down projects these things are approved um we could be back in Safe Harbor and we could have this permanent very prominent project that is is really contrary to um what we've worked really hard for for our downtown for forever um and I think we really wanted to like call that out at the beginning to say like this is you know there are very unique circumstances about this site and the history of this site in this project and also contextually what else is happening in the town in

132terms of our efforts um to be at that required threshold yeah I mean I think that's uh oh sorry I think I think that's the you know that's the um description I think that's really critical to make that we're at this point of having to deal with this project um almost because of like a fluke right like things that went into things that didn't go into construction things that that went into litigation like things like beyond our power to control and and um so I think that's that's important part to to try to make really clear I think I think it might take a little bit for that it becomes more clear with your verbal expl explanation than in the text I think um I think it's there but like you know how do it's

133definitely there but how do we get it out to that level of clarity I think the other thing I was going to say is um that you had talked a little bit about the documents and I think it's a a means to you know and I don't I don't think I S did this but actually reference you know see see document so and so see documents so and so like that you're you're putting them back into that list of documents you know if you don't believe me here's the proof like go back and look at it um so that you're you're referencing you know everything that's on the list gets referenced somewhere in the text and like said not maybe it's not necessarily in your text but it could be somewhere somewhere in this document

134kind yeah we kind of did that with the the memo with the Shi memo like the the table has C memo right or we did it with the Continuum so that the the language of the attorneys right there like you know yeah we were collaborative and doing everything by the book basically because I I think this is because we that's what was so frustrating I've talked to Peter about it a number of times it's like we worked so hard we worked so hard on these projects and uh and it was just really it was just really frustrating obviously for all of us I have to say just to vent out when we wrote this I felt felt a lot of uh relief because I feel like it did capture all of our hard work and

135ashlin's hard work and I feel like there's a lot of misconception out there in the public that somehow the ashin board this up excuse my language I did use the f word in public um and feel free to beat me um but there's misconception there's news articles that we had this for multiple years and somehow we weren't cooperative and we literally had this for one year we did everything by the book to the point that the continuance said so um and we literally had this project during Safe Harbor with the the it ending two days after the continuance it's a very um unusual circumstance and I I felt like this document did a really good job capturing all of our hard work including ashlin's very very hard work in pushing for affordability and I really

136think that this could even be used to ask the state for further Safe Harbor in some fashion I'm not a lawyer familiar with this area but it seemed to me like this could be utilized as an argument to say to the state hold on we are literally just away from Safe Harbor because of Pawn Street Chestnut and our Bella litigation like what is going on with those things and why can't we push the state for some extension of Safe Harbor I'm just kind of throwing that out there so um also what I was going to say is we go through and obviously this is a very obvious statement that we'll have to go through and that we talked about before making this like into one document because like I already see um like for instance

137okay mine's next section three context right and this is where I was writing about the zoning um basically mostly about the zoning that kind of got tweaked in 2020 2021 in there um so that first section like I'm reiterating about the different housing right so that material if it's already not present above you know can be AB used and and filtered upward and taken out of that context but for my writing solo like I needed it in there to reflect on right and then the next part and if I could I actually thought your section was different and helpful like you could also have some repetition as long as it's con contextually relevant to your piece you know what I'm saying yeah I just think we um it the more compact I think we can

138make the more non-repetitive I should say that that we can make it I think the better like it would be better for me to refer it' be better for this Tex to refer to the the chart that that has a a number on it than to repeat the information right or something like that um and then I really you know start to talk about I go right into talking about the bylaws because that's what the section is about so um um first is just to introduce the it's it's bylaw 8.5 about what was intended ining the downtown zoning District not all of it is about the changes because that this District came before obviously the district came before we changed the district um but just to describe what that was about what we intended for

139the downtown that we have a very strong vision for the downtown and that's really what the first section is about but then really starting to break down um all the different bylaws I kind of went through them number by number except at the end where they weren't um uh you know it just wasn't stuff to comment about it was about signage or you know something like that it wasn't really about the zoning so it kind of goes just through those um one by one when they talk about um you like in the first section they're talking about um um you know what the purpose of the bylaw is and that we provided a map you know it's about um the historic architecture cultural offerings you know things that the district was meant to do right

140and then I try to tie that into a little bit about about the real project so I'm kind of describing the bylaw tying it into you know what we're doing now um 8.5.5 is about mixed use allowing mixed use development in the area and so again it's about explaining kind of explaining what the bylaw is trying to do and then um and then talk a little bit about it in real life and so we don't need to go through all of these just because that's just the pattern all the way through can trying to deal with the zoning can I ask you one question I thought that was an excellent section I noticed you kind of went in chronological order of the bylaw almost like we're writing a decision where we're analyzing hey these are

141the factors we have to look at so I really liked it for my linear brain I do Wonder like I started to make notes like for example that first paragraph where you talk about about I guess it's not the first paragraph sorry third paragraph where you talk about um the heart of that first that that particular third paragraph is the commercial base of the zoning so like I made a I made like a little note relative to like a grade for the project that's a minus for this project because it's not commercial enough the next paragraph you had it was really about like the lack of development on the first floor so for me that was like a negative to the grade of the project the third one was more positive for the project so

142like each one is either positive or negative relative to the project and my only thought was because we're presenting it to the state maybe rather than doing it like in linear order we we say to the state hey these are all the negative points of how this project does not meet our intent of our zoning and our planning yes there's a few positive elements but it's overwhelmingly negative and listing them more like in headings of like all the negative factors very limited positive factors so that the state can see if you're looking and comparing them they're kind of totally outweighing anything positive versus this way where I'm afraid the state will lose sight of there's a lot of negative here and very little positive I think I think that's a good point I could do

143it that way um but with the caveat that I would not like my goal was to kind well in doing it I was trying not to um cherry pick you know bylaws I was trying to show every single one and like it's so being very kind of honest about it right and if I'm doing that I think it would it would be really it'd be it'd be really you would have to let go of that notion of maybe we can add like a concluding paragraph that summarizes it like in light of all these stuff here's the conclusion like over overwhelmingly there's more negative than positive maybe something like that like the B the portions of the BW not shown here aren't really Rel I'm say they're not going to be relevant to the project but

144like I said there's some that uh I would say that's the only caveat because that's the reason I went and made sure like basically every number was included so on the other hand it I I think that you could take some and maybe some chart but this goes along with the planning element there's a lot of plan there and that's what it speaks to right no I really like it maybe it's just a matter of putting like an sentence that says here's a thorough review of every element and by the way the ones that are truly negative are the lack of commercial space the lack of first floor development the height restrictions the failure to meet form based code just like give the state no offense to State Employees I used to be state employee

145some of my best friends are state employees but they tend to be busy people and just give them the heart of like all of those elements that are truly bad well maybe it's maybe it's something something that um would be in the conclusion like to really to to summarize you know and pulling those things out all and I think that could be from all the sections because this I the way this has been put together just so far is amazing and I am so sorry that I did not participate but this is you help get this is just amazing it was talking about a story literally of a whole Year's work and I think it's starting to build up but the conclusion could be summary of everything and positives and negatives at the end so

146yeah I think that might be a good idea and I think we could use I have one comment sorry uh no in my my impression is that in in the different sections I I think we ended up kind of um coalescing into into consistent themes and I and I think that was good um I think it would be probably a little more powerful if in some of the text and and we can correlate kind of the sections uh like there's like three or four sections that are talking about uh you know the building as as a gateway to the downtown the the historic me buildings there are some repetitive themes that that that that can remain in the different sections as long as they they all kind of direct the reader towards uh there's a

147little more focus on that as opposed to oh yeah I already read that on that paragraph and I'm reading it again here and I'm reading it again here and it happens with a couple like like there four or five themes that it just takes very little to organize it and I think it would be a little easier to to read but I think that this that would start linking all the different paragraphs as opposed to having kind of you know like separate people wrot it I think that's exactly right Marcel it's like to Trisha's point I think it's like we just need to um go through and basically weave it together as though it's one author because right I mean it was six like yeah yeah we can we can give it to DEA she

148didn't have homework last time I'm just kidding I'm just kidding thank you um I know I know we're not necessar in small edits but it says five stories but that's actually like five stories of building plus one elevated so yeah I mean it's it's it I get it we'll have to be clear about that because the vision of the town is from the street level not from the backside right and so I'm always talking about does it look from the street the downtown so it it's important to distinguish th those two yeah about I think six stories is going to be noticed when people I mean like that I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm talking about from Main Street you don't see the six stories right so we could just Define that we could

149literally we could lit sorry Mana we could literally just say that we could say from the we expect that it will appear to be a five-story building from the street level however technically literally it is a six-story building like we could put that very squarely in the front of the decision so that the state is not confused what you true um I mean I just wonder like if the application was before us how would we look at those stories like would we look at it as six or five youan reference it as right like we reference it as six in our section I think bylaw it's six so then I my perspective is if like per bylaw it it was six I think that that's what we what we say although hold on a second

150so Trisha I think when you summarized the zoning you wrote the height is measured from Main Street was that in the bylaw that is in the bylaw the so then it's is it five per bylaw no it's three no no no this building this project yes it's three you measure from Main Street so it's so you measure the height from Main Street so the 38 feet goes from Main Street the fourth floor is allowed if the grade allows right so you can't put you know well and and so that I recall we we should say that was specifically for that site that last zoning change and I feel like under the planning theme that probably should be talked about yeah and I think we can but let's not get hung up on that little detail

151right now about so it's it's something we have to make sure we're consistent with throughout the document but that that we're also not trying to say hey you're putting a six-story building on the street when it's just not true right it's there's not a six-story building on Main Street there's a four story building on Main Street I agree I think we have to be consistent with what otherwise you're you're undermining your credibility so so you thought it was five stories in the back and four in the front I thought it's six in the back and five in the front from the which street are you talking about are you talking about Main Street or 12T below next to the river so what I'm asking is for your for your zoning draft you you are measuring

152it from Main Street right I am always measuring it from Main Street as per the bylaw so that's the answer to Amanda's question when they presented it on Tuesday from Main Street they said at its highest it's five exactly that's right that's what they said yeah okay that's right which is what Trish is defining as well and there's basically having a basement it's basically like having a walk out basement on the back that's different wait they said five from the front yes yeah that's a little different from what you had you had four from the front four from the front well I talk about four you you had five front it says at the front of Theus the back of the site the building has both four and five stories just in different locations right

153so it depends on if you're talking about the front of the site the back of the site and where you're viewing it from from Main Street or from the river so I think we just need to Define that earlier in the decision yes we just have to talk about it clearly so um and what I was going to add is I think that like so far I can see that there could be like you know how Amanda's section and my section had these headings ABC like Trisha's section could be D zoning context right for the project or something like that like you could easily add that heading just to kind of give it I mean even these different paragraphs that I just label out that they were bolded like to just just that you couldn't

154because otherwise it just looks like a real mess of text but they could be bylaws blah blah blah and then that have to do with this you know so it's like okay do I want to read that paragraph right now or not yeah exactly yeah Sub sub uh subsections yes Kate you want to tell us about the environmental um so we just said environmental so I did my best to pull together anything that I thought was related to environmental deite and I so sorry Kate could could you turn your microphone on um I my well Trish and I in section the way we divide it um I got environmental and we didn't have a lot of Direction so I just did my best to find anything environmental related I think um the use restriction in

155Niza was to me the most important um the meepa um that project because Mass housing is a state agency it should be going through a meepa review the that section um the environmental justice so we learned from the comprehensive plan that all of ashlin's census tracks or environmental justice um qualified and this particular census tra is both minority and income and I par particularly just I think in general we would want I don't think the state's going to do the research we did right that's part of our audience um that it also just requires a different level of notification by Mass state law of environmental of environmental issues of environmental concerns like when they're doing reviews it actually has it's pretty extensive document so are you kind of envisioning this in the context of the

156nanza site the nanza plume site is there and we happen to be in an environmentally Justice census population and please take it really serious so you have to take it extra seriously yeah that's um the the flood plane overlay that's in our bylaws in it's also Mass General law the Sudbury when I got to the Sudbury river section there's you you could get probably 20 alphabet soup of Mass General law and D so I decided not to try to pretend I understood them all overlapping I could I found a document that I could start listing some more of those but I'm not sure it's helpful so I kind of left that as the general um we I think there's common a common sense of Riverfront sensitivity and environmental and um I know the historic Mill

157complex the applicant that was before us said they had an exemption but I um this project is tearing down most of it so I don't know if you can have an exemption for a building that's not there um but those are I did not find any other related environmental except like I said the river you could there's probably at least 10 different um specifics you could site so so this section when I read it I was like oh this is like very bullet point like these are all the things that relate to the environment and one thing I imagined that this could help the state do is looking at the west west sberry decision they're almost like saying to the state hey make sure that you have these conditions and then at the very end

158West Newbery was like Hey zoning board when this comes to you make sure to think about these things so this comment to me could be like subheading potential conditions to consider like these are things that we're not saying the project should be denied for these things we're saying if the project is approved or if it's appropriate because of these factors they should be strong conditions is that what you're visualizing I mean yeah I would like to think the the um restriction on housing would get high consider my concern about that is it's driving up the project costs which makes them have to build more units to be economic right and that's exactly what Mass housing does and I don't think we I don't know that they can't count it out we if we don't ask

159it won't be yeah I'm just trying to Vis I'm sure there isn't precedence for that but that's the biggest thing right this site is very expensive to build on which makes them have to build more units which makes it five or six stories or four stories and tear down historic build I'm just visualizing like did you envision this as like issues that would require this project to be denied or issues that require a strong condition do you know what I mean I didn't get that far I mean I think I think what um this is kind of some terminology Kate and I were using that when we met that I think maybe what what is needed a little bit in here like like you said it's the bullet pointed factual information and it's what's needed

160is a little bit more of the fluff right about like the touchy feely part about like okay here's the regulation and how does this yeah you know what does this mean for our project what does this mean for me walking along the river in Ashland what does this mean for floodwaters like you know um like what's the consequence to not paying attention to this you know the fluff for me it's like the applicant was so excited like oh my God this is going to be amazing it's right on the river bed it's like incredibly views and I'm like H you mean views of plumes and environmental issues and all that stuff so it's like the way I would fluff it up is like on the one hand there's these perceived wonderful elements and yet each

161element has a very serious uh layered um issue that needs to be understood right like that would be the fluffy way to say the inherent the inherent um like how does that affect me okay here's your regulations how does it affect me as a person right what what danger am I in you know or if I move into the site or if I or or just for the or the town in general it's like how do we get it out of a regulation and into something personal I think that's the I think that's a hugely important point because um the developer was talking about oh you know all the things that they're going to do to make it okay for people who live at that site um I mean I personally would not sign up

162to live on top of a super friend site but um I think that aside there are Community concerns we don't know what disrupting this plume does to abutters or to you know the businesses in the area um you know we have sensitive populations in that immediate area I for the some of the fluff I'm wondering if I mean I thought this section was great um like I I thought this was like such an important ad um and I was a little bit worried that it got buried deep in the document so I'm wondering if again this is that that same like single author theme if we can add like a paragraph of summary to like and almost like our section to be able to give the it's not like I think it's really important to

163say this is contrary to our planning considerations um there's this like loophole that basically would been susceptible for less than a year to 40b to situations not in our control and we could be back on the other side of that just depending on how the cookie crumbles of litigation and whatever else but also this is a super fun site and everything else like I think that it's okay to put that to summarize it sort of up front so it's just it's not a super fun sight but just I to be clear it's like the plume from a super fun sight but we don't want to overplay I laughed just because the way you said it was like so casual and then you're like super fun site um so I try to make notes thinking off

164of like the personal right so like when I think about that site and The Flume and all of that stuff what's around it there's a school nearby there's a library nearby there's a farmers market nearby there's The Corner Spot like all of that all of that people and energy and you know pedestrian use and all of that we want to use right like we want to do those things in that site there just happens to be this thing underground right there right so that's important that's a very strong visual like we want the downtown to be vibrant we want a lot of people there and we want this to be safe and we want to be sens sensitive to Ash's history with noza and we want to make sure that this is built thoughtfully to

165those elements can I offer Devil's Advocate to that view say that again uh I just want to offer like a devil's advocate I I I think that everything you just said is is makes sense in terms of the feeling of of what what people can feel about this but I don't I don't think myself that this is a really powerful point to kind of um bring bring everything home because there are regulations for precisely that the the owner the previous application was going through the states and and the state has regulations to deal with these things I I think that if we start dwelling on something that is already regulated and they will have to do whatever remediation has to be done uh I I I just don't think is is a very powerful point

166to to to to offer how how people may feel when the reality that the project will have to deal with it anyway so I just don't find it very myself are you more comfortable Marcelo just kind of focusing on the factual piece of it less about emotions and more like hey as the state probably knows this is a nanza related site here's elements that need to be addressed would that you think would that be I would be more factual in in saying that as as as per the application that we previously reviewed the the process of following all the r rules and regulations of the EPA and federal state uh regulations um just should be closely monitored I I think going beyond that is is kind of uh wasting some some some energy of of

167whoever is reading this uh to focus in what we we really are trying to make a point of I I think the environmental part is beyond the the how it plays with with the rest of the project and the town um I think should be limited to um they may say oh yeah you guys feel this way or that way that that's already taken care of I mean the project is going to have do it by law and and I I agree with you Marcel I think I I was thinking afterwards that it doesn't I didn't that what I expressed really wasn't quite right you know it was more about I think trying to have the information more accessible um and easier to read to know like to know like what to be able to

168read this and know what it says and and you know and so that it has to be like you said kind of carefully carefully considered carefully monitored or carefully going through the procedure and then it's the thing that Kate said that because of all these things it is making an expensive building and that puts a greater burden on the bylaws and on other things because it is a very it's a trick a tricky site and so I think it's more I think it's more to those things than than getting super personal about it I I agree I think those I think I misspoke there I mean no no and and and and and and that's the point and actually they made that point when they made the presentation on the on the side walk through

169uh they they said this is a contaminated site we we are going to clean it up we have to do it uh but that that puts a burden on the economical visibility which is a legitimate point right uh we we just need to I I think more balance it with with the idea that um that recognizing that that is a is is a condition of the site that would have to be addressed by by the regulations um and it will be uh the the that point cannot be at least this the way I see it um kind of using that as a crutch to basically throw a fivestory wall in the middle of downtown it's it's is not a fair it's an argument but but it is an argument that that that that that is

170simplistic because uh Ju Just for for the feasibility of of a of a project economically uh is is it worth ruining the urban fabric of a downtown for the rest of the town's life and I think I see it more that from that point of view recognizing that it is it is there that it would have to be cleaned up and that that we just recognize it it just it cannot be simply the so Russ now for throw in uh all the density that one might want to throw in so that's really interesting I hadn't thought of it that way Marcelo in other words what you're saying is it's such a polluted site that the developer any developer can basically say I'm going to do you a massive favor and clean it up for you

171but give me density um and I I didn't think of it that way so it's kind of like a a double-edged sword on the one hand we want to tell the state we have concerns about this on the other hand it feeds the argument that we should basically do whatever it is that developer wants to do because they're doing us a massive favor of cleaning it up so I never thought of it that way actually until now and I think that's a really interesting point um they aren cleaning it up they cannot clean it up unless we deal with the plume it's mitigating it for residential and other uses they are not cleaning up the plume this the federal government has given us some money and that may happen this site is not going to

172be quote cleaned up it's simply going to be mitigated for residential use so so so that's the part which requires a certain level of cleanup of course they're going to do what the regulations simply require them to do for that type of project and and and they're not going to do less they cannot do less but they're not going to do more so this is where I think we have an ethical obligation to be straight with the state that we're aware of these conditions we we are in a sensitive community that has a lot of history at the site or relative to noza so I don't think we have a choice I think we have to lay it out and tell the state that we're expecting the state and the zoning board of appeals in

173whatever way they have jurisdiction to address these issues that's it that way we've met our obligations to the public for me you know I'm not a scientist and I'm not a a regulator um but so typically science and regulations don't always meet in perfect ways sometimes you have to be practical in regulations and you have to sort of do things in a way that maybe a scientist would do differently so I think that because human beings are going to live at the site we have to put it out there that this we're literally going to be putting people near this potentially dangerous thing that is going to be regulated to the best of the government's ability that is what we're doing so it's a risk I'm just going to put it out there it's a

174risk and I we can we cannot guarantee anyone's safety other than saying the government will take care of it but I think that's almost like stating something that is self-evident it's it's like saying oh we think the dirt can be can can be dangerous if you if you I don't know I don't know what example I was going to say like like there are there are there are facts that are unavoidable and everybody knows them in this site um I think us trying to point out without the self-evident doesn't I don't think it it makes us look stronger I I think we should focus our energy on on on on the areas where where we're making a point that is really protecting the town that this part worries me a little bit in in terms

175of being um too much energy and something that they say oh yeah we know that yeah there's regulations and they move on and they take less seriously other areas that we want them to focus on more Well w we just in the interest of time because we're you won't we set that discussion aside for a little bit and just get through the last section which is um really I think a lot of marcelo's original writing went into this last section um Marcel do you want to talk about it or do you want we kind of we met and divided it into four sections and we each took two basically so um yeah know I I think people are familiar with with the original Concepts that that I had put out and and I think this

176is kind of a continuation of of of that in terms of um the the site and the relationship with downtown context and the river those are two areas but but but it's it's actually not not unlike what we've discussed in the other sections and that's where I think we have a pretty pretty consistent tone which I think is very good um it just has to be kind of interwoven like like man I was was saying before um a little bit better but but but it's it was a matter of highlighting um the impact you know the physical impact of the project as proposed in the downtown and everything else that that the town has been trying to develop carefully um but without sounding like uh oh this project is terrible it cannot it cannot nothing

177can be built there which is some attitude that some people would have right right that I mean we've seen them in comments and and things like that that over the years uh I I think I I try to make a point make make a point um almost saying that we we are the realization that we all know that this town is ripe for more density that is right for a larger project um but it is a a site that that is unlike any other and therefore the project cannot be um something that just anywhere uh it has to be crafted very specifically to the site uh to the context to the fact that is a gateway to downtown the fact that it will Define downtown primarily because as proposed is going to be a massive

178five story wall basically uh dividing the town in pieces and the relationship with the river uh that we have discussed in in the past so but aside aside from that I I thought it would was important to highlight some of the good ideas that this project is proposing and there's a few that that are somewhat consistent with what we have asked before um so we we we I I was trying to to strike a tone of of of understanding the nature of the problem how how how do I make a project work here um but but highlighting the idea that uh that just using that environmental uh excuse to say I have to do 250 units which is kind of the way they framed it at the beginning is is is one argument but but

179but it cannot be the only argument I think we're trying to guide them to try to rethink the project from the ground up seeing what what what is the context and more the way an an planner and a designer would want to see it not just hey give me 250 units and throw them in there somehow U but there's historic Heritage to to be concerned about there's contextual um height texture and and articulation of the architecture of that downtown and the fact that it's a Gateway is very important I think and the continuation of of the river walk and and all these connections that the town is trying to kind of enhance and and and and prepare for future generations and I think that that's I guess what I was what I was trying to

180merge into into those paragraphs I thought that section was very very strong and well written um I mean honestly I think this this thing flows really well we just need to create some headings and tighten a few things and create some themes the one thing I I'm curious about is at the very very end this is a lot like it's pretty much the length of the Newbery decision which is fine um but I wonder if at the end we should like give the state a summary of like like have a finished section of the like a summary section that says okay here's our final position now that you're all this here you know here's some kind of one paragraph of everything about the project that doesn't fit Ashlin and then you know if this is

181approved here's the conditions we really need you the state to require for the applicant when they come to the zoning board of appeals like these are the things that we want you to tell them to do right and that ending can serve this for the state to kind of know okay what do what do they actually want and it can help the zoning board of appeals to focus in on those things because the state will tell them the state will create guidance and essentially tell the applicant when they come to ashin to the zoning board of appeals these are the things you need to work on that's that is something the state can do um so just so you mean kind of at the at the end of all this to have a short summary

182that almost that kind of puts out our major points yeah which are pretty easy to squeeze together yeah I mean I think we you know like a bullet point list of like like ins some these are the 10 things that you must the state must tell the applicant like come back to you know my understanding is the way this works is if the state approves this piece they can tell the applicant what to work on with Ashland they can literally say approved now go work on these 10 things like that's my understanding of the process am I right Peter to a point and the the Southboro decision 2022 it came back it was approved and it said You shall negotiate these points with GBA exactly yeah so exactly exactly so we're we're telling the state

183please tell the please tell the applicant to negotiate on these 20 points you know yes they highlight the points that obviously the state is interested in and I believe yes this document can be uh a driving document creating points of interest so would you say that um but the beginning portion that you and Amanda did um where you know you were talking about all the work that the planning board has been doing right in terms of Housing and in terms of you know in terms of the zoning that um because we have been is the case because we have been working we have proved ourselves as working hard on this and we we are we are very we acknowledge that we care about the environment the the river you know maybe that comes into it

184um we deserve almost to have we deserve to have these what I think are really the design conditions paid attention to which is about massing which is about um materials it's about the form based code it's about the number of units because those are the things about the Riverwalk those are the asks like the asks have to do with design really right like massing and Design cuz that's what as a person who's not who was not part of all that conversation that's what I in my head at the end of it what we trying to say is the design that was presented a year ago to the design that's presented is what's actually bothering us because that was 185 units and we are talking about 250 units now um so density was there that time

185density is there yes to a little bit higher level than what it was um but what's probably missing in today's design are those design elements that Ashlin saw for its downtown the River Walk That kind of connectivity to the nature that's seems to be what's missing in that 40b proposal it's unfortunate that the two Architects are different but the owner is the same um and these pages over and over again kind of go back to design differences versus history is there yes but history is all telling about how the design is different today to that but I wonder if if those other decisions like you mentioned were more factual and that's what won us this way or that way this is talking about design history but but that's what I'm wondering though like if the

186argument of we've worked really hard not only on this but on other housing projects around Ashland we've been working really hard on this so is that a powerful so so we so we deserve to be listened to in this process is that our is that our overall argument I'll be really clear what my position is so we followed the outline for the West Newbury and West Newbury basically says deny the project it doesn't fit and these are the conditions if you decide it does and that is what I want to say for me the reason I started in this way is I focused on the elements where zoning board of appeals have been able to deny projects successfully on elements of working hard towards affordability already basically the spirit of 40b doesn't apply two downtown

187that makes it unique that's the Cape Cod example that the attorney referenced and planning elements exactly so to me we start strong we say no we say 40b is not for us look at how well we've done this is not where 40b is meant to intervene Ashland is not the right place certainly downtown is not the right place put it somewhere else we love developing on 126 we love developing Avenue of the Americas we zoned for it over there put it over there that is where it belongs not downtown we've already done this everywhere else so I for one would end it by saying to summarize Dear State this is not for us why because we are not the 40b candidate for those reasons look at our planning elements look at how unique we've put

188downtown in a special place for ourselves we've developed everywhere else let us continue with our incredible Vision we've done better than other communities in doing that that how I would start it and then I would say and if you approve this project please please please please give it some serious negotiation uh conditions so that the applicant is forced to come to the zba with a lot of work already done addressing all of these design concerns that would be my recommendation and I'd rather take a strong that is really powerful than um I think again it looks like this is obviously a first intensive draft and we have so much material over here so I think it's like scaling down but what the message that you just conveyed is that powerful summary that I think needs

189to get added here um and there again like Amar said there a lot of you said it oh you have to do is listen to it and type it no I like I think like Marcel said there's a lot of kind of the history that's getting repeated the sbur reference is getting repeated a lot so I think there a lot of repetition and again those are valid points but it is getting repeated a lot um there was some of what Marcelo had written about the history was a little more interesting had a little more depth and kind of connected to today and why those buildings need to stay as is I think there was some interesting info in that section of it so um right so what's our next step then I mean I agree

190I think the way you expressed it that I get I get I get it so I don't mind draft so here's my thought I think we all have our skill set and we all have some good points we made um I think this is a big undertaking for one person obviously and I think we started out strong with marcelo's voice then we created this group project now we need somebody to pull it together I think Marcelo has a very strong voice I might have a strong voice on the conclusion Trisha might have a strong voice in tying things together and looking for uh consistencies so I think we just need to come up with another group project of cleaning this up all together um I don't think this is a oneman job or one woman

191job no um but I'm more than happy I'm more than happy to volunteer for a strong conclusion um I think Amanda and I worked really well together because she's a great editor so when I when I write she edits really well so if Amanda is up for the task to help me do that I'm happy to do that I'm also happy to work with Trisha and Marcelo to kind of come up with headings to make this thing smooth I think Marcelo and Trisha might be good as a team to create that that um connection of headings and things I'm just assigning you guys to it because I think it seems like you worked really well together and that might be a good project um and I don't know you know I'm just throwing stuff aine

192for this I'm I'm just like Marcel and I working together though was was throwing out ideas was me telling you to do it no but it was like it was throwing out ideas and then I edited and then he edited then I edited then he edited right So eventually both of our voices got mesed together in there and things got consistent and that's what I'm wondering about for this I'm wondering if it's like okay Anna writes a conclusion and takes a pass at the whole thing not not not every not every paragraph you're like okay I just can't do these bylaw sections whatever I could do that with with one more person so I don't I don't know if Amanda you're willing to join my little effort because I think you're a good editor of

193me does that work for you yes but why would I just don't think it's a but but why wouldn't it be and I don't know how you work but why wouldn't it be that you put a conclusion on it and you put some divisions or whatever you think it needs and then you hand it to Amanda who's going to say okay I'm going to see what did with this thing that's what I mean I'll so one thing that yeah I don't want to put deep on this but Deepa might be able to not not even wordsmithing but the sort of repeats and I think this could be combined because you're a little bit newer to it well we all are I mean I right but does that make sense as a starting point like Deepa

194just says these keep repeating right and and maybe smoosh them I I agree it's very I mean I really proud of our board right this is amazing for a first draft um but I think we probably shouldn't be repeating or should minimize it right so there is some brainstorming about our structure is going to have to change a little bit I think not to repeat I mean slightly so there's the whole concept of Primacy and recency so the first thing you say and the last thing you say people remember the most so repetition can be really effective we just need to be strategic about it like what are we repeating and why to marcelo's point some themes should be repeated like there are certain things about this I believe for Marcelo and I agree with

195him the river the downtown the history the design these are things that are super important to this project so I think repetition makes sense as long as we all unite around what that is um I am more than happy to give it a I can do it I can I can basic I'm not going to change anybody's like work uh I might take a stab at making the environmental stuff agreeable to some of the discussions we had so that it's less less emotional and more factual and more concise um but I can take a stab of drafting it show it to Amanda because like I said she did a good job editing things that I wrote that made little sense um and then we can come back but my understanding of timeline is that this

196was supposed to be done like in the next few days we're not going to I don't think this goes to the state until the end of May and I do Wonder Peter like can the planning board deliver this to the state directly so that we have another meeting to review this I I I I'm not going to give a definite answer big I'll confirm with Michael I'll confirm with Michael and Jen I know they were looking for comments I can give them a draft of this you know which is obviously I think appropriate and then I because I know Michael is starting to to compile uh I I know Jen and everyone has been working uh uh to code all the comments have been coming in I know on Friday tomorrow we're going to close

197off the the comment portal and so then we can uh code any new comments and then start drafting the letter uh from the town standpoint I think it's appropriate to give them a draft so they know what's coming here's here's what we're putting together so they don't have to just not know what that that what that packag they're waiting they're waiting for our input it's going to look something like this but this is you know we're still working on it it's OB working a lot on it the actual deadline for the state you know what um it was toward the end of the month it was towards the end of the month what day I'll I'll get is it after the 23rd or meeting it's like the 27th or 28th I'll firm that I can

198firm that up tomorrow um and I do want to say you know I did I take it upon myself and I give you 100% of the credit the West Newber report letter I mean West Newberry I did share that letter with Michael cuz he was also looking for examples you know so information I didn't find that she gets okay you get K you get credit for it because it was a great letter research and so uh and so you know I did pass that letter along to Michael and he took a look at it because he was trying to do the same thing right and so I think it's all great relevant information that's just flowing in you know uh yeah and also if he knows what's in our draft maybe he will be taking

199some of the load off what he has to do right instead of repeating a lot of work when we already have this pretty pretty substantial thing coming I do think we should get this over to the select board as well because I I like as I was writing this I said to Amanda doesn't this give us ability to push the state for more for more more flexibility more time there's another 40b project cooking like a lot of this stuff is going to be relevant to that project as well so I absolutely think they should go to Michael and should go to the select board and they should utilize it um because there's a lot of misconception about what happened at the planning board so is everyone in agreement on that that we should send a

200draft their way like this draft and let just get it in there like yes we're working on it or yeah okay I would do a little bit of reorder for example I think zoning it's a section by itself it so under context I would definitely have site zoning environmental River I think those are context related the big picture um A and B makes sense C is kind of again a little bit of context and site so I think that can be easily combined with that site and things that you're talking about there well a b and c relate to those kind of legal uh elements of what yeah I think you're talking about big picture but the content in that big picture is context that you're talking about about there but I think that zoning

201thing should be moved up the whole thing it's a section by itself because that's as powerful as the first section where you have the document and the general comments and a and b of section two it feels like a little bit of reordering then you'll realize that itself would take off lot of the sections that feel repetitive when reading through this um yeah I think um what I think it does need a little bit of reorganization and I think then the zoning is powerful I probably pair it down some but I think it's powerful yeah um it's a bit much I I'm afraid to move zoning up front because it's so dense it's important but dense yeah so when a Manda and I were drafting our starting point we were like we need an argument

202we need the heart of the position we're taking like this does not fit Ashlin because we we are not the intended 40b target for this is why right zoning it absolutely is relevant I'm just concerned about moving it too high up because it's well a factual it's a factual in part of that document which I think is important what you think you're oh go ahead go ahead de that's that's I think that's what is really strong about why this project is also not the right project in the context that we're looking for so I think what you're saying is ADD add the reference to zoning sooner and maybe even point the state towards that section yeah and even the environmental one again I I agree with what Marcel was saying we don't have to add

203any more fluff to that it's probably has the facts it's okay to have facts right and it's more like you said maybe these are points that they would anyway be considering as decision making ones but it's FYI here yes we did the research as well but I think this if we could move some of these sections a little around that will help take out repetition okay and I'm also afraid of like some of these year that we make sure that between every history that is in section c what Marcelo has the year and timelines are all kind of needs to be consistent or we take them out in the second iteration or have it consistent and you don't have different sections referencing the same history that's when you have well what was interesting about this

204I think but you're an Amanda's part it lays out those three points and um and now like even with the bylaw section now that I have Point C has already set up my argument my argument gets less because you've already set it up I mean the argument is strengthened but the the amount of text can sh right because you've already set up the importance for me versus me having to set it up for myself exactly exactly and I feel the same way about lot of the I feel the same way about the design section it's like the bylaw section sets up the design section basically everyone did such a good job that we all introduced it so well that we are reintroducing the same stuff three times um so yeah that can be tightened I

205mean I can give it a shot like I said I think this is the I think we did great the one question I have is for Peter which is like we kind of made up the idea of do we need more memos I don't think we need another memo on affordable housing unless something about the March memo is wrong so the March memo and I did send out I found I have an updated September Memo from this past September okay obviously that's still 6 months old at this point so I think I can update that and tighten that up can we do we have the September memo already I already I saw on the last email out today um which I which I circulated this I I you included that one I included the September

206memo cuz I held off on the since I had a newer one but I can go back and and update that memo that's but is the September one contradictory to this so I believe the September 1 takes out the 2000 excuse me the 2010 census numbers got it so so and so at this point you know and going back to that point right is that why we were bouncing around between the two is because obviously the 2010 Cent numbers excuse me I'll be I'll I'll say this that the 2020 census numbers were not accepted by the state until June 23rd of last year so it was almost 2023 that's when the town that's when the state actually accepts those numbers and that is due because obviously it takes a long time to calculate all the

207data and then what the number you really have to kind of uh bake into it is that it's all about yearly um year round housing right and so a lot of the cities and towns such as on Cape Cod for example they have to reduce they have to subtract out okay what what's a what's what what houses are not occupied all the way around so long story short the state does not adopted 2020 census numbers until June of 23 and so that's why all the the memos leading up did not have that always included the 2010 cents numbers and then the 2020 census numbers CU what we're always to do in row was trying to juggle okay what's going on here because the biggest thing that happens is you in the 2010 census right when

208we were doing all that data configuration is that you were adding in the 40 units that Sirus brought to the table right but you were not adding in the 398 yearly units that were built in 2018 right and so then with the 2020 numbers yes those those 40 uh units were already included but then you're going to jump up because you're going to add in all of the units that were built over that last decade gotcha so to summarize I think the the table is accurate in the sense that it's not like it's wrong it's accurate for the time and the new one in September is just like a revised version of correct yeah the table is correct for the time and for the conversations were having looking to forecast the Shi of the community

209so then we we if you have time we could create a more updated recent memo but it sounds like it's not necessarily needed if we have a September one we have September one I can take a look at it and proof it that's not a big deal I think but I think the effort's already there and the word the the verbage is already there what about a memo on investment into downtown like I just couldn't find easy reference point to be like hey State this is all the stuff we've done to make downtown amazing in the last 5 to 10 years like do we have any summary or anything like that think like we we as a community need that for the packet right and so even better if the select board if the select

210board does it then we can reference repr so I've been working with Michael just helping him answer small questions like when did we adopt you know when did we first adopt add Zone and I found that you know obviously that was 2 actually I think it was 2006 um and then that's when that's but obviously gets revised again so I know Michael is starting to bake in some of those big ticket obviously the Investments such as the streetscape X Y and Z and kind of tell that story so I know he's working on on that within his letter but but I can kind of try to put something together um just as maybe a quick time you know timeline yeah about what's going on um down regarding the zoning investment streetcape um trib trayal um

211obviously you know beautification element such as uh the River Walk um and kind of go from I mean I think if we could get it in a in a like budget like so just it could even be simple like in the the river walk the date and the budget it's going to it it goes with that planning that look cool yeah and maybe you know what it did y uh yeah I think you know we can do I can try to work on something of that nature um because then it shows a state look we've planned we literally have focused all of our effort to make downtown look incredible but you're saying it might be a it might be a select board document yeah right that no I'm it would be yeah I think I

212mean select board document that we're referencing because the whole town is we already we're working toward this and planning and the whole town is other elements of the town are working on this as well yeah we just need something like that to exist at point but I think that's that's what I I think ideally comes from one of the other groups working and that we can just add it cuz it won't it needs to be in there if no one else is doing it we have to figure out how if no one else is doing it then we will create the memo but if someone else does it I think we're we're working towards it I'm happy to I'll I'll I can talk to Michael about it and and I can start pulling together some

213data and some points you know and like I said create that bullet point yeah memo to say these are these are the Investments have been made in in in what they have done this memo again just to be clear it's not just a member for us this that would be a exhibit that would be something that would go 100% that's just not specific to the planning you know I think you know anything that anything that I would create and and I think you know the select board who are well aware and you know i' you know I think I did the Shi memo for Michael at first right to give an understanding of what it what is the Outlook what is the forecast and so I believe you know he is also mentioning in his

214letter and the town will be mentioning their overall letter what the Shi and and and and what the um and how Ashen has been looking to make strides right in meeting the 10% affordability rate I was envisioning that the March Shi memo is an exhibit like this because it's a very detailed multi-page Shi document um I was also envisioning that this is an exhibit the March 7th document and then if we have something from the current project to show how different it is that's similar to this layout that would be cool I think you reference all the project like I think I personally think that you reference I'm sorry I'm reading this is the this is the West Newber project project I would think you when you reference the application that came from Mass how

215like whatever came to Mass house like see it we are we our letter is against the application that is in front of Mass housing right and I think their site plan is obviously a big tick or the Big Ticket item one of the big ticket items that Mass housing is reviewing so I think for us to I think all we have to do is do a blanket you know in reviewing your application the out you know the application in front of you we see this it's just very powerful the difference because I'm assuming this other thing is going to look uh a little different so should we so in that argument on the design side yes they have a proposal but there was a history to where before this came along before so similar to

216what is getting presented now should we pull that out as well as saying this is where we began two years ago because that itself was a one-year story to what the town as it collaborative approach landed up here so would that be of value of to why the design that's getting presented is getting so much push back that's that's purely design all the other elements I mean it can be a reference but I personally as planning board do not want to bring that into planning board stuff except like if it if it's appropriate for context but it was a planning you guys could find it because you wer not I I didn't go there because I felt like the stronger point was like here we are the planning board this planning board this is what

217we did um but if you guys feel like because you were involved in that project if you feel like prior design was but we had the planning board saw an earlier the planning board saw an earlier version of this talking about the one way before well it was all similar we couldn't get them we could not get them to budge and finally we we were like okay let's just vote no you know basically that's what we because they would not budge on they would not budge on anything and then they said whoa whoa whoa let us have another shot and then they came back with this that's this yes and then they came back with this and we were like oh but the first version that all of us saw all you know was not

218you're talking about the flat roof ones right at one point of time it was like flat roof version it looked like I mean it had some really odd stuff building out of like a city Framingham City and we all kind of I'm in my head so the reason you're bringing it up is you're thinking like does the state benefit from seeing that we're moving back to ineff something not so correct and I think we I don't know about you guys but I think that too much focus on the past pollutes it and takes away from the fact that we actually progress towards this this that was positive I don't know if I would go too far back and I also don't like I had to be very careful drafting this because I didn't want to

219come across as making conclusions without proof so going back multiple years to say oh like I'm I'm struggling with that with this because I don't know how far back we can go in incredible way to draw conclusions I don't think we need to go back and describe what happened there but but I know in I'm pretty sure anyway we have did a lot of edits then then like Marcelo and I's text we mention that we worked together to with with the owner to come to get there that it wasn't like out of nowhere yeah we really worked over a number of discussions and I don't remember how we put it but and we maybe maybe we emphasize that a little bit more we have a little bit more hints that hey this wasn't the first

220iteration but we got there and I think that also supports the last few pages of the site and context and why it's so important because of what the product that we got when we really went through that process to see where it began and why the town was so against it to begin with there was a lot of positive that oneyear Journey was just not them coming back with revisions but the town also kind of participating and they were all excited about where this stopped but that's where we began so having that little bit of hint of that for those last few pages exhibit I think that will help but that's so do you want to take a step I'm trying to think of how to pull this together it sounds like you and Marcel

221already had some of that in your section I don't think we need to show the picture of it and get it confused that way I think it's just in the text that there were to me like cuz I don't want to be looking at something that goes all the way do do you feel like there's a piece to what you and Marcel drafted that could Naturally Fit that that you could edit I I'm I'm going to make a note to look for those things to make sure they get pulled out a little bit as as an important part of the history so yeah I would have thought having picture would be easier than reading but again think about it maybe it's easier to just describe it so so here's the thing there's a bunch of

222documents we're still looking for like we're looking for Trisha's color drawing thing to try and right yeah it's like I didn't do the drawing oh Richardson did the drawing Rich the same person that did this did that drawing but it was a plan and I think it was done before it came before the planning board it was it was a search for my emails to see if I can it was a result of our discussion asking for a conceptual drawing a conceptual site drawing that talks about the history of Ashen and why that Gateway is important if you find that and you if you can also find the old one that you're referencing what I'm saying is find that stuff and bring it to the next meeting and we can figure it out so it

223could have been printed because it was hard so to summarize our next steps it sounds like I will take a stab at walking through this whole thing adding headings cleaning up a few sentences tightening things so that we're not repeating the same the same introduction stuff I'll also try to take a stab at the conclusion and Amanda I volunteered she seemed to say yes uh will be my second set of eyes as an Editor to my to my stuff then it sounds like uh Trisha is going to find a spot in her Section to maybe tighten up uh this particular point of Prior efforts um I I understand Peter is going to talk to um the select barder Michael about a investment in downtown memo of some kind that we can reference yeah and I'll

224update the Shi and an updated Shi if necessary and we'll get the September memo too um and then at some point we have to decide what is a reference document versus exhibit do we want to like attach documents for the state not just reference and I guess we can I can think that's going to come along the next draft because we're going to say we should we should refer to that here document block can I can I ask you guys for a favor like for your sections that you already drafted you reference documents can you send me I think that's allowed yeah can you send me the reference documents to add to the material references I could probably steal them right from your drafts so I could do it I think I just referenced the

225bylaw okay and you know what don't worry about it because I think yours you list them all I can just cut and paste um unless there's some document we you missed well I no I mean I think I personally think the deed restriction should be one of the documents that goes with it because I I think um I can almost say for sure that this board is being probably more thorough on background research than Mass housing who probably has 500 things to look at right so if we're presenting I think it's important to give the stuff we have like you're you're visualizing giving them all of these or just some like all of the reference documents I mean at least at listed as a reference if not an attachment I I'll list I'll list it

226as a reference because you referenced it for sure um okay I think we have a plan and then I guess Peter's going to talk to the select board about timing of our deliverable because we're not going to be done until our next meeting and and provide them with a draft this draft yeah yeah we already have so they can get a sense of yeah I can talk to I'll talk to Michael tomorrow and get a sense of what's going on from his point and if uh if something obviously changes I'll email at the board as soon as possible and you'll give them this and the select board yeah and I was just I was I was just filling in some of these dates and they massing and scale oh can you send me those yep

227okay yeah I just have them uh written down I you know what I'll go in tomorrow and I'll fill them in or you can fill them in and send me an yeah I'll just I'll just exactly I'll just do that I'm I just can't find when the library was restored great so I'm I'm I'm happy to Vol I'll be like the uh the the clerk here when people need to find stuff or other references or I think if someone Subs out a little section to me it's still not violating um open meeting law if I don't communicate like I I will whoever's writing I will volunteer I mean one one thought you had mentioned you know Deepa has a fresh eye like if you and Deepa want to take a look at the draft and

228come up with I don't know a few paragraphs you want to tighten and bring those edits to the next meeting like just because I'm drafting something with Amanda doesn't mean that you guys can't we don't want to have two different drafts necessarily but what is there any chance of before then getting a new CLE cleaned up version from whoever is doing that which I think is you and Amanda just to to then have other people start brainstorming more um just asking I know yeah um I don't think this is as bad as the first push no so but I'm afraid to make any promises because my my kid graduates high school uh in two and a half weeks yeah um but I will do my very best like in the next week you know I'm

229saying it's I think it's easier so the problem is like if if we do something and other people then it's this point I don't think we should be rewriting anything we should just starting to yeah when you say clean up also I don't think we should go because points that's there on these Pap on this paper is pretty relevant um don't cut much don't go I'm not going to go overboard I will never cut anybody's work uh unless like I show the track changes so I understand the idea of like tightening and moving things around I'll move stuff around but I'll be very clear what I'm moving and I'm not going to just delete to make it's for you to spend time on it I'll just leave it there with track changes yeah I I

230don't think you need to if if I don't think you need to go through the entire document and you're I think but because I don't think we have week a week for you to do this I think it's like go and do the things you were going to do which is basically the conclusion getting getting your get your speech in there Amanda add headings yeah add headings or maybe Amanda's adding the headings right get your part done pass it on it's not going through everything with and then that's fine because when I get to my part I'm like oh yeah I'm going to streamline mine because of what they wrote in their I see what you're saying I think it needs to turn really quickly from person to person to person to person that's fine

231that's fine so you're saying give it over to Peter as soon as possible so he can get it to the rest of the group start start okay that's fine and then they can you guys can all start getting your changes over to Peter yeah so you have less time but much less to do as well fine so then me and Amanda can give it a shot in the next few days Amanda is that exciting next few days all right okay and I also apologize for misspeaking on cloom I apologize oh no I just want to be clear because we no yes now I also want to be clear next few days is good because it's fresh so okay okay so we have a plan for that everyone good yay um we also said in the

232section we were going to talk about um a response to to an email that kind of said this was in front of the planning board for three years and also in the newspaper I and they're sort of related to me because the letter from the town's person cited the newspaper article that it was a um they got frustrated with the planning board and we actually have a written document saying just the opposite from from the applicants attorney and I feel like well a as the clerk I'm just asking for what we're going to do to respond to that specific email but I think it's also a broader issue given publicity and things said I can just tell you right now Kate that from a from a factual standpoint this application was filed on July 19th

233of 2022 and it's date stamped um July 25th yeah I think the misperception is just that you know that this the project was in front of the Town long before that Deepa and I were part of it I mean but even it was it was already there was already a full proposal when you and I first saw it right so it's just a misperception I think about when it came to the planning board and when it was in the town as a whole it truthfully it was in the town a long time it wasn't in front of the planning board a long long time so I think it's a it's a clarification right you know but it's important for I think our board but also the town because when people get this perception that the

234board I think our board has been extremely professional since I the board that I've worked with since I've been on is not saying you know everything's always perfect but we try very hard to be very professional and follow the bylaws and do our job so there's one thing about responding to an email from a singular person that doesn't sound like that what's the second part of that because the the responding to an email to one person is just saying hey you got some of these facts wrong and here here is the actual facts and the rest is the rest is kind of like you know it's a resident to be blowing off some steam right and we don't usually have a big follow-up memo for someone a single resident blowing off some steam right so

235that's one thing I didn't ask for a memo I just said I think we memo I know a memo was mentioned before so um but so but you're talking about it's different than that you're talking about something besides that single resident you're talking something there as clerk I think that we would continue our tradition of responding to people who write to the board so that's the primary thing agreed so I cannot do that right now under the agreement that we have as a board of so what if we do this like so the good news is this is going to the select board so feel like that's helpful because the select board can start to see the draft and our our position which is helpful because I don't know about you I don't go to

236Every select board meeting and they don't go to Every planning board meeting and this will help them see some context the other thing I mean I'm okay with Kate trying to take a stab a drafting a response to that person that's succinct it maybe references some of the very basic factual like things like hey just ahe heads up we only had the project for about a year here's what the attorney said when it was you know continued just some context like something very short and maybe show that to us and if it's concise I would be okay with that kind of short factual response and if you don't want to respond to it I am happy to work on it with my with uh with Peter we can we can make the no I'll just

237I I mean I hate to wait two more weeks but it's fine because sometimes I think if you literally take the sent out of here it's like the factual sentence like two points you know it's not three years it's one yeah and heads up it was a positive collaborative thing C language from the continuance like I mean I guess the other thing we've done it before that I've worked with Trish and then we just send it out it doesn't need to be brought back to the board yeah you guys could look at that do that um one thing one thing I would I would say kind of um echoing with um Trisha um mentioned I personally don't think we need to respond to these emails myself uh I think we cannot take everything that personal

238you know everybody has a lot of opinions and a lot of comments are out there um I think everybody can see the public meetings if they are so interested see what we said and we didn't say and um and and I I I personally I I don't see I I don't feel you know attacked by the email and I think the Board needs to needs to um to be so defensive about the simple facts of complicated process yeah I mean I I I do agree with Marcelo I don't feel like um to me it's it's a little bit of a bad precedent but I'm open I'm happy to do a simple response simple data response to the email and and leave it at that yeah well that and that's in keeping with what we usually

239do so I I feel like it's professional to acknowledge an email to the board and that's kind of where that's how that's how we've been doing it for two years now sounds like we have a plan two two points factual um sounds good sounds like a good plan all right so we'll do that we'll take care of it great cool good work is there anything else we need to do under 10 to 60 great job everybody was there anything else I was just going to mention that the letter the email from L Mor and so and everyone's behind her this is a and I'm not I know it's late just not to spend too much time on it uh but it's right be right ahead of the minutes it was an email from our fire

240department and we are already moving in this direction um requiring um and asking for the for the developments um obviously multi-story developments multi-unit developments to go go into more of an electric avenue um no pun intended Electric Avenue uh uh to you like that one to use obviously uh electric uh stove tops um electric cook tops born in the 70s uh and so there is ongoing there are ongoing issues at multif family units that will have a gas ranges and kids are bumping into them a lot and there's gas leaks and the fire department's getting called out um and so the fire department just requests from the planning board side of things that um obviously with the stretch code too is going to push everything in this direction that obviously multif family developments um you

241know multiun developments use more um electric uh electric cooking appliances so I think this came up when uh when someone asked the different departments for responses to for feedback to this I don't think it has anything to do with our letter right now it's much too specific but it's just you know the letter was the memo was written it makes a lot of sense it's something we should keep track of in in all of our projects as a so so is that something we have to work to can or should work to codify um you mean like in the bylaw yeah yeah maybe because I don't I mean it's we can ask but if we don't have if we don't have a bylaw we can't we can't require it for site plan review for not

242for a site planeview yes so we can make a note of that but I'm just saying we don't need to go down that long tunnel today maybe it's just a short tunnel because it's not relevant to what we're doing today right so let's it just came across it just came across kind of come up and then all of a sudden we're not prepared to deal with them because we didn't we didn't make a plan right we need to do a bylaw well also we just adopted new stretch code yeah and so I think the new stretch code also is going to you know stand on its own uh and that is pushing everything to to Electrify um and so I think it's just a matter of maybe seeing how the new stretch go plays out

243and just making a note of this request from our fire department if we do need to codify it then then we can cross that bridge at this time yeah well we can we can look to codify but we're six months from there and uh we got other fish fish to fry before that time so then the other thing is the meting minutes and then that's it they look good to me the April 11th ones you push it back public comment again oh oh we will open public comment right now Mark the Sony 49 Hon Road as m going through four and a half pages of seven voices only did about a half a job because the town is more than zoning more than uh House housing no the mid downtown the only part of this

244I actually liked was Trish's the bylaws that's the only part I actually it like out of all this but it still needs more detail more data you talked throughout thousand the mill but that's not that's not the only part of town that lives in town I'm going to go through nanza thank thank you Katie but naner is a by not just a bylaw but it's a history how we understand that in a new way of saying especially in the um where it says since um in the MP mea mgl 36162 L since the project requires a state agency yes those only people that should do this not this board um then we went down I went down and saw what I was hoping would be talked on but wasn't the masses and scales that is

245what this town is understanding what it what it is for the past 30 years what I have heard here tonight was you understood but you only understood your own minds and what you read in and you and you deleted in what was text in fonan for your own words to make it sound right to you this is why I said a couple of minutes ago I know about zonan test me on it this right here would be a a b a b Min is at best because it's not thoroughly connected to everything it's just in your own minds in your own voices and how you took each part zoning board has to take everything yet you did this without zoning board's assistance that's another reason why I'm against this and it's only have have to

246work zoning board it was said at the for at the housing for that the zoning board's going to have a lot of public meetings about the bill the 24 the 40s and all that yet you put in your own minds before actually they came through that you're going to want this so he going to try to convince the zoning board that we made these changes and we want you to think this way as we as we're thinking right now it needs more work that's all I'm gonna say if I could mark thank you I I think I UND I understood your comment as you know why are you doing this on your own and not more with the zoning board of appeals so that's more of a procedural thing where eventually this is for the

247state and eventually when it goes to the zoning board of appeals in many communities planning boards do work actively with the zoning Board of appeal like the zoning Board of appeal might ask us to prepare something for them later at a later phase once it's in front of them it's not in front of them yet so why you zoning things for your own to get through before the state makes it official because we have uh that is a resource that we can we can show the state that the zoning supports our view that's and if the state ask well did you go get any sort of suggestions from the zoning board themselves how are you going to answer that uh the state can ask the applicant to do things the state could also ask uh

248the town to do certain things regarding this project and then we will follow the state's instructions but this is before the state even know that you came up with this right so the state wants to hear our thoughts just our thoughts then why wasn't this then why wasn't this given to the state before you brought it up the agenda uh we need to draft it first we're drafting to the and then we're going to the the town so right now the town within the 40b is in a commment period and so the town and select board and you know the town manager through the town manager are all sending in comments and that's why on the town's website there's been a portal and and all citizens have been pouring in comments to that portal you

249know as a town we are coming up and we're going to create um a letter right to to state that this is the opinion of the town right and I think the pling board is trying to create our own letter and that's why we would not submit it to the state unless it's it's discussed by board and when we're ready so I'm I'm I'm still going on my train mind for this this is why I said a decent amount of time ago use me I can help Peter knows I had a couple of three quarters of these zones in this in what we have now the the form based code the stretch code and now moving up with the sustainability for the future thank you Mark so I'm just I'm saying to Peter there you

250have my email pass it around to the board if you got if you people want to get in touch with me we can communicate but this is not the way to communicate on your own before the state and before zba thank you thank you all right we are seeing no other hands we are back to the meeting minutes I don't have any changes neither do I um all I have and there's a lot there's a lot of text here um but person does a generally a good job at it um on page four I just need to correct spelling of my name right there boom no big deal I'm even willing to change at this point spelling on my name okay um any other questions about the meeting minutes it's pretty I like the Precision

251of when I left the meeting at 8:00 p.m. I thought it was 8:01 I'm just saying very precise um all right I'll make a motion to approve the April 11th 2024 minutes with the change that Trisha proposed SEC is there a second second that and a roll call vote I Catherine Jers I and Trisha Kendall ey so those are approved are there any reports that anyone feels that are uh critical this evening anything we need to know um on the MBTA communities act I have a memo and I know we're not going to get to it tonight and I there was stuff emails so I just printed a bunch of copies and I can send well I can send it to Peter to send but it's um just a work plan to be cognizant of

252of the timing like there's basically six let's say we're all busy on this now so there's like six months till the next town meeting and when you count like the um the hearing time the warrant time um so I want to just make sure we keep that on our radar screen and how that's going to work um and I think it's really important to make sure the public knows about our work plan um I I think I think it's on us to make sure that we're extra communicative to the public to not turn into a situation we aren't happy with in November and I think that could happen just based on what other communities are happening so all of that are anyway that's yeah great we'll um obviously take a look at that we've already

253kind of talked we haven't gotten together since last was town meeting just last week just been too exhausted um but we have already talked about what those initial discussions within our within our group what are the what are the things we want to start digging into because we're not we're not planning just to sit around waiting to see how things happen we're planning to work and then see how things unfold that starts to influence that work that's our that's our plan right that but I think that needs to be communicated as the work Works ongoing yeah that's fine we can make reports just like we make reports here every you know basically that's why that's why I added that to the agenda to be a regular update item that's why I added it so to

254be that to be like like I said a regular to be a regular update on this as as we move forward so I do like the the outline of the potential tasks on the bottom and I think it'll be helpful for the working group to review this and maybe in the next update to give us sort of the plan that the working group has like does this outline make sense to the working group like at some point we do need to get the select board um into the process Etc yeah I mean just start a forum process yeah I mean um obviously first glance these are these are the things we talked about before and these are the things we've done in our in our process and we talked about doing more forums and we've

255talked about you know running through the numbers and you know and those kind of things so it's it's nice to have it in writing so that everyone can um kind of remember those things um they are always uh on the Forefront of our agenda so uh but that's a good thing to refer to so thank you I will um apologize I didn't know people were remotes and I also just didn't want to flood Peter and Alvaro with more stuff today and I just finished this today so I will send it to Peter to send out time flies by is all I'm going to say so six months is not a lot at time I know I'm still trying to recover from last week and we have to start up again so that's how it goes

256all right so anything else from the various nope grps okay um I don't think I have anything either any essential updates or anything no I don't have any you know essential updates uh State subdivision we had a meeting today with the with the with the contractor hopefully we're going to get that project back on track which would be good that I'm kind of we're we're trying to push um to make everything right uh 100 chest stre uh TX going up um windows are going in I was on the site less than a week ago um maybe actually two weeks ago at this point uh they um they starting to order materials I'm going to go up on site um the all the materials were ordered with the um architect's approval you know going back and

257looking at the approved colors and the schemes and and all that stuff and so uh I'll be up on site you know more routine up there um and then that's really all I have Starbucks seems to be plugging along I was out there the other day um and I know the uh c c the cultural Council plugging plugging in another electrical thing are they plugging along plug sorry stop an you got me yeah they're they're they're moving I think you know coming from Starbucks we're going to probably see a late June early July opening at this point uh but there is still um they're still doing some inside work build out and then I know they have to um obviously hire staff train staff and so that's why I'm hopefully saying you know early early

258July at this point so other than that um that's all I have all right then um I guess I won't make a motion that we adjourn the meeting at 10:50 p.m. I'll second that roll call vote annais I I Katherine Jersey and Trisha Kendall I everyone should have an opportunity to adjourn all right thanks everybody have a great night e e