001e e e good evening everyone and welcome to ashin planning board meeting Thursday April 25th just a reminder that the meet meeting is being broadcast and recorded and I am calling the meeting to order at 7:16 um as always first item on our agenda is the clerk's report that goes to Kate we have had one correspondence from the public since the last planning board meeting and Keith are we up to date more or less on responses that you have that you need or have gathered um the one that we got between last plan our meeting is uh one that's specific that wouldn't be the agreed upon clerk response okay so that does and I can resend the ones I I have probably five or six I'm not sure they've been responded to that might be
002a good idea it's been such a crazy couple weeks that don't want them to get lost in the show sure okay thank you all right next on our agenda is um our public hearings we have two public hearings tonight the first one is six Chestnut Street uh Peter can you just give us an update before we start sure so tonight we have um our applicant and uh his representative Allen and uh he uh they are here just to kind of give a update uh an overview on where the pro project stands uh this past Tuesday night the applicant appeared with front of the design Review Committee um it was it was a long meeting um but they do plan to go back to the D design Review Committee next Tuesday night um and so we'll
003be there for that but um in short um the applicants uh um excuse me engineer has um submitted a revised plan it did come late there was a couple uh iteration ations but the latest is uh came in in everyone's packet and then also just to make a note I did print out the email that came from the applicant um the applicant's um representative Terry excuse me the engineer um who was here presenting at the last meeting and it just kind of tried to answer some of the the Plenty board's questions um I know at the last plenty board meeting there was that question about um volume in the storage of um water and Terry did the math did do the math and um the applicant is able to account for all required storage um
004on the property and so I know that was one of the bigger the big the the sticking points um and obviously was clarified and the applicant's um engineer was able to uh obviously get over that hurdle uh other than that uh I'll let Allen uh talk about any of the uh the other updates but um just to make a note the the parking area in or the parking spot on the entrance to the property coming in off a chestnut um you'll see that they did locate a bike rack there and that was from also from one of the comments made from the design Review Committee to have a bike rack on site and so it was placed there obviously to to locate the bike rack there but also to minimize indoor to um take up
005that parking spot that we kind of deemed as a um a red flag uh so with that said I think I hit the most of the points Allan do you want to talk to any of the uh other updates no that's that's you pretty much hit it on the mail everything uh has been uh addressed for the last meeting that we were here um the orientation of the parking spots has been moved so that it's no longer facing that that exit so the safety concern has been addressed and while still a quotee unquote parking spot to appease the owner uh we are assigning that spot specifically just for the area so just want to speak into that mic I'm sorry Alan just so people at home we can hear no it's all right got it
006okay so the um the while the spot spots orientation has been moved as we mentioned the number 12 parking spot will remain as a quote unquote parking spot but it'll be assigned specifically just for the bicycles it's not meant for a vehicle the only reason it's remaining as a quote unquote parking spot is just to appease the owner with the with the numbers we don't actually need that parking spot but the owner has a concern wants to keep as many parking spots as possible so we're just trying to uh basically mitigate that from the owner's perspective as well as tending to your concerns so I did um so the design review committee meeting was on Tuesday and um I had requested that Alo send me the tape of the meeting as I watch them to
007see how especially how the first meeting goes you know after because we sound our planning board M like that sorry I did not have this on um so um so I watched the tape of that and another thing that they had mentioned um they said that or I think um Terry I think had mentioned that there was an email from the property owner Britain realy trust about the dumpster yes so one of the one of the abuts uh had uh made a comment regarding uh the location of the dumpster uh possibly exacerbating an existing uh rodent issue and to that to that note obviously we're going to have everything up to code by no means do we do we think that our operations are going to contribute to an exaggeration of the problem uh and
008if we do notice such an event obviously we will have P control take care of it okay so instead of um instead of potentially moving the dumpster which I assume meets all setbacks or whatever the bylaws or will yeah currently the the location of the dumpster meets all bylaws all recommendations and it's there so it's just a m you're looking at it as a matter of making sure those dump those dumpsters are able to prevent the problem as much as possible correct and again we by no means do we want a rodent problem ourselves so got it yeah um yeah I think the I wanted to does anyone are questions from the board obviously this is still in process but I um I have a few things um that that I wanted to talk about
009their next view to the design Review Committee um but I wanted to take comments from the board first I think the compromise with the bike rack seems great if if the property owner was willing to make that work so and the dumpster concern it's hard to know how to address it in light of the fact that we don't really know what's going on at the neighboring property relative to the rat issue I would think any dumpster in Ashland is a potential rat problem unless you have an outdoor cat so um as long as it's in code I it's hard for me to visualize why we would move the dumpster without more information as to the rat issue next door so I'm comfortable with what's been presented yeah me too the cine looks fine I mean
010I see why they moveed the parking spots that way it's a little odd that it's kind of counter the the the circulation but it's a it's a two-way circulation everywhere around the building right correct two way so I guess um my question Trisha and and I did not see that tape was was there a conversation on the first meeting maybe you can tell us about the materiality and and and and the finishes of the building that are being proposed so the architect herself was not present uh that night hence there were probably more questions than answers uh for that meeting um but regarding materials I'd be happy to answer any of those questions to the best of my knowledge so is the architect going to be present on the next they will they had a
011technical issue and they were unable to join the meeting okay yeah so I think um I don't think I don't think it's something we need to go into an our meeting because um it's listed you know as part of that should be part of their meeting yeah no I was question if it was discussed at that meeting but but what I do think is important um because the the Tuesday meeting was a in a way a little unfortunate because Terry was there who who presented us and I thought he did a a really good job um uh because he was there and he was answering um the questions as best he could with full disclosure that he wasn't an architect that he doesn't know some of these answers but he was trying to you know
012help be as helpful as he could and I thought he did a a very good job because there were a lot of questions and he was kind of there by him answering them for an hour and a half or whatever um so so the not having the architect there was difficult on the other hand I think um I think for that meeting and I was going to um you know have Peter maybe put this list in an email because I know at the end of that meeting they the designview kind of gave you a list of things to kind of look at for the next meeting but I wanted to make sure that they were very clear because the um and if and if if need be Peter can send you examples of another project
013right because typically that be greatly appreciated yeah because typically what we're seeing is not just that the 3D renderings but the elevations shown flat and you have some in there but or the architect has some in there but their line drawings they don't really show the color correct that is being updated as we speak okay there will be new renderings um presumably by next meeting yeah and then um and like I said I'll I'll Peter put all this in in the email but for for the architect working with you guys to propose what the new colors would look like you know what the new version of the building that would be all specified yeah which I you know so they can actually talk about that with you and the other thing I would say that
014um the um the the new vegetation that you're adding like the especially that one right near the street where we talked about which is really the the the storage for the storm water yeah on the renderings right now it's just shown as it's still shown as concrete and that's going to help your case a lot too to show that is full and green correct and the trees in the back to to really help because I I think there's a lot more in the project than the renderings are currently showing off and so I wanted to make sure it's presenting itself in kind of the best light 100% it makes sense okay but I will I will forward those so that Peter can get them to even if it's just a little checklist for your architect
015awesome okay thank you my minor comment is I think we appreciate the fact that you tried to solve our challenges that we put across for the bike rack and that parking spot but just looking at the flow of it um as much as that parking spot is a dangerous one for vehicle that's coming in I think it's far more critical for a bike rack to be there because that means people are walking cutting right across that it's not like you are going to have a continuous flow of traffic but now you have people parking their bikes and walking right across the traffic um it could have been an landscape element if you had brought it right up front next to that ADA parking and if you were to I don't know I don't know if
016I think it's easier for a car to reverse into that parking spot than having bike cracks which is kind of hidden in some way it's not up front near the entrance so that was my it feels like the flow is not there yet completely warranted and our idea to mitigate that was to paint arrows in the parking spot to direct the flow of traffic somewhat once they're in or out from the exit right the reason why the parking spots are oriented that way is ultimately to discourage anybody to go into that area so we're we're trying our best to avoid that situation yeah but that that's a good point though I mean in reality if you put the if you incorporate the the the bike rack into any of the other landscape items you could
017actually just use that as a parking spot I mean it's it's no longer impacting the sidewalk which was the Comon okay as long as it's not dangerous for the pedestrians I mean what's the difference so the so you're you're basically saying that the bike Ron itself can be relocated and keep it as a parking spot functional parking spot I don't see why not I mean the the the the the objection was not to the number of parking spots was to the way in which the car may actually hit somebody that's walking and and and a bike rack can be in many places actually maybe closer to the building to De pass okay we'll be happy to relocate that yeah I mean it could be the parking spot 10 12 my glasses did not work next
018to the ad no so the one next to the ad spot up front is that oh my God my eyes are oh yeah well this sp there or you can incorp right your landscape right up front yeah up front next to the next to the street where the people would come in the bicycle yeah I think it's easier to reverse your car in that parking spot I know you did that to accommodate our conversation last week but it feels it may be safer to bring the bike racks up front not a problem be happy to relocate it is that spot 18 next I think it's spot 18 that one all by itself the one next to the 8 that's all I can see right now it would be at then up front where the bikes
019aren't where the bikes get I mean I don't see this corner being any kind of a safety issue because it's so busy but or also your bike is it's near the entrance it's like you said it's safer you're not going to get hit by a car while you're yeah parking your bike there's a number of ways that The Rock could be somewhere around there an element more than actually a fixture on the site we would certainly appreciate any suggestions if you have and and relocate as such okay cool any other any other question questions on this okay do you have any other questions for us while you're here not really okay so obviously the plan will be to um have the applicant go to design Review Committee next Tuesday night they come back to us
020on the 9th and so hopefully on the 9th we can kind of uh have a revised plan we'll get design riew comments and then we can kind of move forward from that point yeah and I think Peter and I were maybe going to hopefully try to attend that meeting just to try to it seemed it took a little bit for the design Review Committee to kind of get into the project and understand what was going on so um we just thought it might go a little smoother to be able to answer any questions or to explain the explain what we had talked about over two meetings you know so yeah we certainly welcome any participation from you guys okay so I think at this point we'll just continue to the 9th and then we will
021uh move forward and obviously um like Trisha said I think you know I I myself and Trisha hopefully will be at that meeting and then we can hopefully help move that conversation along sure so great we appreciate it all right so we would need a motion to continue this public hearing until May 9th Excuse me yes May 9th I'll make a motion to continue six Chestnut Street site plan approval to the April 9th uh May 9th uh meeting is there a second second that Anna roll call vote De andai Anna tuski I marcelona I Katherine Jers I and Trisha Kai so we will see you on May 9th we thank you thank you all right and uh as always we'll be in contact as we have been and absolutely all right we'll see each other
022next week you got it all right take it easy have a good weekend thank you thank you by all right uh next on the agenda is 151 Main Street um I believe this is been continued but Peter can you give me give us an update on that uh yeah so this is 151 Main Street the uh former fire station uh tonight we do have Allan uh weit on the call uh Allan is representing Clover Road um in your packet under um item indoor tab number two uh you'll see an email exchange between myself and Mr John mun um and he is the applicant uh along with uh Allan uh from Glover brewing and they are uh requesting a continu it and I'll let Allan um kind of uh talk a little bit because I know
023he was looking to present IND or just to kind of talk to the board but they're having some uh some back and forth with their Architects and uh they just want to make sure that they they get to the board what we requ requested and it's been it's been SE semi challenge but I will let Allan kind of speak to that so Allan if you don't mind uh via Zoom can you please step forward I have made you a co-host so you can unmute yourself and just stay to the board you know um you know any you know the reasons for this request absolutely thanks Peter hi everyone um so yeah obviously we were hoping that we'd have those uh revisions from our architect um sent over by now and be able to discuss those
024with you guys tonight but um they've had a series of issues with uh you know the the architect that was working on our project um is no longer with that architectural firm um and uh and then you know we apparently they redid the the full drawings in instead of just making the adjustments that we had so it's it's gone back and forth and it sounds like we're really close but um you know we kind of missed the cut off for tonight so um so that'll be um you know we're looking to continue that on the in the next meeting questions from the board yeah I think I just I just want to um you know I just want to reiterate that I I think from our past meetings on this that um you know everyone
025is um I'm not going to speak for everyone but in in general support of the project we're we're glad that this building is going to be reused we like the things that you talked about as far as your business model um but we just can't it's hard for us to go forward without a drawing that accurately represents the changes that were made and the things that we talked about so we're kind of we're kind of stuck until we get that that final drawing that gets put into the files as an approval document so um we're we're here ready when when you are so just to to let you you know yeah I appreciate that I think it's been frustrating um all around and sort of some bad luck but um but yeah we're we're very
026much looking forward to getting to that uh step and getting you those drawings so um you know I I don't foresee any other issues but um but yeah so hopefully we're ready next uh for this next meeting did anyone have anything to add on to that discussion okay in that case we appreciate the report and we'll need to continue is is July or sorry July what month May is May 9th going to be uh enough time for I think Allan Allan you're shaking your head so I think May 9th is enough time and then we can kind of go forward from a procedural standpoint we'll need a motion to extend this until May excuse me May 9th but furthermore um going back with an uh an allen has actually cced on this email with John
027malun um from a um clerical standpoint that we do along with that motion is to extend the date of final decision to uh May 23rd and that would be um the Friday after our second meeting in May which I hopefully which I'm hoping that will give us enough time to work with the applicant I think you have May 24th on here which should be the Friday is that what you mean oh yes I'm sorry be the 23rd yes yes yes I'm sorry yeah so um it'll be to Extended to May 24th and so hopefully that will give us two meetings to continue to work with the applicant and if we needed more time obviously um if something arise is that we can make alterations from this that point but I think um that's what I
028uh emailed um with John about and he did concur with an email um agreeing to that extension okay so do we need we've done this before but do we need two separate motions for that or can we uh we can wrap it up in one I I believe I'll make a motion to extend the decision deadline for 151 Main Street s plan approval application to May 24th and uh continue this hearing to our next viable date May 9th May 9th is there a second second that Anna Anna teski I Marcel I Katherine Jers and Trisha Kendall I so we will see you hopefully on May 9th thank you thank you thank you Allan okay so our wow maybe you were right our public hearing um um for the MBTA which is next on our agenda
029is scheduled for 8:30 we cannot start that early so we will why are we being so efficient I don't I know this is scary this is don't yeah that's right okay so let me let's look ahead and um what we can um take care of we can um yeah we could start with the meeting minutes and work our way back I don't think besides the historical commission historical committee we're not expecting any other visitors are we um from from sustainability or no we are not ex I I did uh I did go back and forth with um the historical committee and I said most likely we'll take them up after um around 9:00 after the MBTA discussion this one uh yep that's historical stuff um there's three pieces of historical information there is uh a
030six page um looks like a uh PowerPoint um and then there's a map and that is their proposed local historical district and then they sent over a preliminary study report draft of their ashon Center historical district so um they just kind of want to get that to the planning board but no there are no other groups um um uh on the agenda that will be appearing besides the historical commission so obviously we could talk about uh item number six number seven um and really six seven minutes and kind of go from there well why don't first we get through any kind of updates and meeting minutes and just have those all done um everyone has the meeting minutes what are they in section they're right in front of t one not t one but right
031in the the regular Stu there's two sets of meeting minutes March 14th and then March 28th uh the March 28th ones are new um are new to the board um the March 24th ones I believe these excuse me March 14th were sent out on Friday um the March 14 28th were were completed [Applause] recently I can bring those up to share if that's appropriate Kate for the March 28th minutes do you know how many correspondences I mean I would suggest if we're not sure how many you reviewed we can be more ambiguous and just say receiving several correspondences I think it's something we can also fill Peter could fill in later after K either by viewing the tape if it's on there or giving a number and and that would call that a Amendment does
032it do you want me to make a motion do we have any changes to the March 14th is anyone still reading the 14th yeah oh okay it's good to me I don't know I'll make a motion to approve the March 14th 2024 minutes as drafted second roll call vote an tuski i i cther Jersey guy and Trisha Kendall ey so then we'll look at the March 28th for EX any changes from anybody I think I'm good I'll make a motion to approve the March 208th 2024 minutes is drafted well with the exception of filling in the amount of Correspondence correct I'll second keep doar good day an teski IA I Katherine Jersey gu and Trisha Kendall I so now it feels like it's time to go home but it's not okay so meeting minutes are
033done um if we just kind of take a minute to um let's say we're going from item nine down all of our reports and administrative matters we've I skipped it for a couple meetings um but if anyone has reports in there um I'll just say for the comprehensive plan we're wrapping up the comment period did we ever finish our meeting on boox um so if you have not filled out the survey yourself personally or anyone that you know I think the deadline is tomorrow so is the I mean so we had the um meeting a week ago right with with the with the consultant I thought that was really helpful and informative um she made a comment about the um touch points I think she was calling them about the percentage of people that we
034were striving to get um like and as involved in the process and mentioned that um that the deadline for that wasn't today but there will be other touch points for the public I didn't imagine this right yes as we go on yeah so so there there's um there's kind of the components of yes this is the big part of the drive obviously but there'll be other places down the road where public will be in involved in this as well is it yeah so technically this is the vision part and then you actually start the planning piece so technically the public is going to have input at the planning phase as like you come up with ideas to actually oh now that we know this is the vision for ashin let's come up with plans and
035then present it to the public so there's absolutely time for that but I think the consultant one of the consultant team folks was like very clear that this is the primary period for public input because this tends to be the Crux of it without the vision piece from the public it's hard to plan so we shouldn't we should try to squeeze out as much public input as we can now so that we can get the vision right so is is though like is the meeting in the Box stuff like I remember I thought I saw a deadline of today is that is that tomorrow tomorrow okay tomorrow um so you could do one tomorrow after this meeting I'm gonna be like um because I I'm asking because um in the course of the design review
036committee meeting um Bill novakowski who is the representative to the conference and plan meeting Kathy asked him about hosting a meeting in the Box this just on Tuesday at some point in the future with with his neighbors and and and he seemed like he was going forward to do that and I'm thinking maybe I got that wrong about that the meeting the bo part was supposed to be wrapped up and I I think he made a some someone made a comment I was again I'm just listening to a recording of a meeting but um but that could be submitted anytime in the process and it just might like I don't know if there's just a misunderstanding or if that comment last week a week ago today was misunderstood or confusing um it's not the way
037I understood it I understood it yeah I mean the way to think about it is the consultant team needs a deadline to be able to deliver a vision to the steering committee right so the steering committee needs the vision summary based on all the meetings in in the Box deadline tomorrow without that deadline the consultant can't give us a vision once we have a vision we can start planning could this random meeting in the box or extra meeting in the Box come back to the steering committee and maybe influence some of our later discussion I don't know the answer to that but it's not going to be part of the vision so I just want a couple corrections I think I'm sure you agree with consultant is not giving us a vision they're smushing together
038information that will be the steering committee no I mean it's steing committee develops the vision with the consultant's input which will go back for more public there will be a potential for public comment on that as well I don't I don't want anyone if they did here to think that we um hiring a consultant to tell Ashen what our vision is yeah no and I think that point was actually made very clear but I yeah yeah yeah yeah migraine talking but yeah absolutely so um I just I just wanted to bring that up because it was kind of people might be confused yeah because there's three members of the comprehensive plan meeting here and I thought maybe it should be uh clarified you know yeah I do think we I'll speak on my own behalf
039my opinion is that the steering committee should have been more thorough with the public is said the deadline for the vision piece like the deadline is tomorrow and I don't know how many people really know that but to the really important point is the public will always have the ability to reach out to anyone in the steering committee offer feedback and there will be formal additional feedback periods I would be concerned if Bill is confused because his meeting the box if it's going to happen next week will not be part of the materials that will be the strength of like the discussions for the vision that was my concern that that there might be some confusion maybe after last week amongst the members of the board so I'm just bringing that up because it's what
040I maybe it's just one person that would no I think that's a fair point and I would suggest that you reach out to the chairs of the steering committee and share that as chair of the planning board so that you know you you heard it and you can speak to that confusion I will do that and that might be helpful um the other thing I wanted to um bring up in these um just in the report um and I I wanted to do it separately appropriate or not separate from the public hearing um was about the design Review Committee process and I think it might be something we need to um I don't know if we needed going to need another Retreat after town meeting or something like that because my impression un listening to
041the meeting and this is if anyone wants the tape you know they can um be sent the link as well um was that the members of the design Review Committee who were there which were four members no one seemed to they didn't seem to review or reference the um the memo that we sent it didn't seem to be a part of the discussion I had I had um that they seemed sometimes not to be aware that the or not to have be aware of the material that was online that you know that's that's online and available just the same as we get it um and on the Friday before their meeting um elro had sent them uh the memo uh from the planning board um a link to the files and also at at my
042request um because I had talked to them about this before at least to to Kevin um a link to the planning board meeting and the minute at which we started our conversation for our initial meeting because they had noted that sometimes it's hard to know what the planning board said and they can't come to our meeting and their meeting so I said I sent it so that they could look at our initial conversation and has have that as a base like as you know to understand the project better and I didn't get the sense that anyone had looked at that either so I'm a little um and then given the way the meeting went um I'm just a little con I'm concerned that the process isn't working about despite our memos and um and at
043the end of the meeting at the end of the tape they were still looking at adding into their checklist things like checking to see if it's an all electric building you know and checking you know asking for interior plans which I thought I thought was very clear here I thought we really clarified that Marcelo and I back at in 9 to 49 Homer and so I have some concerns and I'm thinking that we're we're um needing another it's not benefiting them or benefiting us if if we don't have a clear process and I I think I I I thought it was much more clear than that and listening to this meeting I realized it's not clear I think the last time we met with them was probably more than a year ago am I imagining
044that time is flying it's been a while no it's probably yeah but but but the point is that it seems straightforward if what what I remember the goal was when we send this memo that memo basically is the agenda for them to address that for that project main agenda items they can discuss other things but that should be the agenda one by one because otherwise it's very impractical yeah so I didn't like I said I didn't want to I want to discuss it separately from the public hearing because I don't think it's related to that public hearing but I I wanted to make I mean I think they're like the key committee that's our support so having a yearly retreat with them would be a really good idea and I don't think Amanda was part
045of the prior retreat with them so I think it's always good to kind of reset once a year and I I think it would be really I remember the thing I liked that started happening is we did start to receive memos from them that were very well organized and res and responding to our memos so I felt like we took a step forward maybe there's some confusion or certain projects have not followed that so I think we should get together with them reiterate some of those positive steps and remind everyone of our role do you really need a retreat for that I mean it seems a straightforward process question the the plan board expects that this is the basis of a conversation I mean it could be another Memo from us but if they're not
046necessarily reading our initial memos I'm not sure they'd read the memo saying to read the memo well it's one of the but could also could also be a 15minute opening could be a 15minute opening in one of our hearings yeah just as a touch base but I don't know if they're all going to be here well they don't all have to be here but if if if they have Quorum they need to be what three of them four of them I don't know how it's one of the reasons I thought it would be do for like that if our schedules allow that Peter and I will attend the next meeting I think that's a good idea to to try because I thought too I thought many of these things I thought were clarified in the
047memo in our in in marcelos and I response to their 9 to 49 their 949 memo we were very very clear we tried to be extremely clear and I I don't know where that went I think it's fair I I would support you going to them to convey that we need their help and when we give them a memo it's really important for us to get a response to that memo I don't know if we need to say this is your agenda this is your only agenda because they're adults and they can develop whatever agenda they need but would they didn't say but only agenda we say that's theend we care about we are really like relying on you technically without their response to our memos we're kind of in a weaker position as a
048board so we need them to actually I have one comment like I think we we're saying so we the board asked you and Trish to mark up the 9 to 49 Homer but but to me that does not translate to process right because it was it was about that we got it we got it we got it here attention to these things right I don't think that was accompany with we never need you to review these things so I don't think it's actually been clearly established as a process I know what you're saying I I don't think that's true necessarily completely because the the the instructions way back then was based on the bylaw and say this doesn't apply you don't need to talk about that because it doesn't apply this does this does that
049does whatever so it's an instruction that was very narrow or trying to be very narrow so that the information that comes out of of the analysis is useful because it's not a free for all otherwise why it doesn't help anyone but helps someone especially what helps us is to identify here the points that are uh critical of this project or that project and say advice on this I thought that's that's the help for which this committee was created right so so again like my position on this is we if we have five questions for them we need those five questions answered I also think that we're we're all adults and we all make mistakes and we all have our own kind of interests and and interesting points we want to make and so if they
050want to make extra points above and beyond the five they should do it because maybe we miss something maybe we're not saying that you know I mean and so but the memo we give them should be responded to that should not be that should be the focus after that okay fine but but we will only be interested primarily on response to those it because that's why we sent it all right so I think um like Peter and I said are going to try to go to the meeting in order to um just provide the perspective and the background to the project that that we've been looking at you know um but also perhaps I'll ask for a little time just to talk to them in in in general terms about some of the things I
051that we thought were because these were planning board documents that that we' been reviewing and so it's um and that we we used in our process that it just doesn't seem like it carried over um so to talk to him about those things you know as well because like like Marcel was saying some of the things were um like as far as the interior plan one of our notes was that neither the planning board nor the design Review Committee should is has a right to do this right it's not in either of our purview right so things like that which I think is very clear to us and but still isn't clear to them and that's what some things we have to it might be helpful to encourage them to attend like that planning conference
052that happens every year um encourage because I I always find it useful Kate and I tend to go every year yeah no you know that might be helpful Des they're always welcome to do that do we invite them when we get those things yearly typically um I'll look into that you know um that might be good and then but I also just want to reiterate I'm happy to send if anybody's interested in watching the the the the the uh the meeting then I'm happy to send that out you know and um and just to get a perspective of of the conversations that are going on I think all right does anyone have any comment on that I just wanted to make the board aware so okay can I go back to the uh comprehensive plan
053so you done no it's it's okay um they when we do meeting in the Box they like a picture and I did say I didn't get one but I would try and they were actually happy so we should try to get a planning board picture to include what what they do with I don't know but they like to have photos of meeting in box yeah do you have some mascar I mean we better take a photo now at 8:00 yeah I know well I was thinking exactly cuz I was like there's no way it would have we finished at like after 11 we could make an effort to I can ask Matthew sure my phone is really old does anybody more modern mine's slightly but we're so sorry do we want to PB selfie yeah
054I I was going to bring the meum box to hold up but it's okay cuz sometimes people are working right ass we finished complete I think think have to go in some all right say cheese thank you thank you all right done what else you got Kate is there anything else you need blood samples anything no no thank you me all right it did get submitted so that the the um meeting the Box planning board did get submitted so we're counted so oh good good and I I submitted one from CPC but I did not get a photo i s sorry is there any other reports administrative matters anything on that bottom half of the list if not we still have a half hour and we could start to talk about either the specialized code
055or 10 to 60 main I mean why don't we do 10 to 60 main while we're sharp Okay so everyone had so um how you doing so everyone uh I did receive an email from Marcelo um and I didn't I and it came out late but it's printed out in everyone's binder and so it's it's there uh furthermore um there is the seven points uh that Mass housing does look at so that is right there too so that's right in front of the meeting minutes yep those two things uh the first in the front in the front yeah and everyone can kind of take a look through that through Marcel's email and then we can kind of go from there yeah I could explain kind of the the process because this was really like a
056stream of Consciousness it's not there's nothing special here the idea everybody can edit or adjust the the the what I try to do is to try to narrow the there's only one that I think of those seven parameters that Mass housing considers that we can in my view comment on which is the appropriateness of the project everything else is uh whether it's fiscally possible all these comments that I I myself cannot address so so what I Tred to do here is to set up and I expanded on each but just four basic topics that would def that that to me kind of help guide the the rational whether the project is appropriate or not um the first one is the relationship of the project with the historic Heritage of of the Town represented in the
057mill buildings themselves so there's and and and all these four aspects are based on on the kind of the the introduction of thinking of this site that this is not a a typical site this is a really special site it and we've because we had two years or whatever talking about this project before we've already addressed a lot of these things so this side is probably at least the way I see it the probably the most consequential site for the town for for the next decades because because of everything that that's in it so so these four points I thought could could address that so the first one is the historic buildings and the relationship of of any project that gets developed there to them the second one is the relationship with the natural environment
058and we're talking about uh the river walk the waterfall uh the river uh edge around the entire property it's it's a very special thing and it's the first thing you see when you enter the Town Center um the third one is uh what what I just said this project is Lally the Gateway project this this is uh what what is going to define the downtown and to me not not being carefully crafted to to to really be that is a huge danger to potentially destroy the fabric of downtown as as we think we we want it and the last one is the the architectural language that's been explore on what was submitted and I know they even said it what was submitted is it's kind of an opening right I hope um so so there's
059a there's a language that is inconsistent with a site of this nature in my opinion it's a in general if we just if if you make a caricature of it is it it looks like a like a fivestory wall completely flat that has some materiality and that's it with flat roof it's it's a big wall that a big wall as a Gateway on a town that has a lot more texture uh different uh uh a form based code for the downtown is exactly the opposite and so the the to I I I I thought that I'm sure you can get more I tried to get it as narrow as possible the and and and the problem to me in the way they they explained it and I think they have all the resources to to
060do a much better job and maybe this is kind of the way they were clear on the explanation that uh oh we we started with 250 units because that's what the project needs and basically work from there so it see it seems to me that the process that's one way to to do it I mean probably you have to do it if you if you're going to try to really test the project you start with that objective 250 units right because that's what we want and then we'll we go down to the side and and bang all the corners until we get them okay and that results on that now I think the important thing is to do the reverse is to start with deciding what's important about it and see what you can craft
061out of it and you're going to come with a number with a different number and maybe there's variations thereof so so but but but the point is even on the process that we went through before there the the we came to a point where they seem to the architect at that time seemed to get it it's like okay you're starting to translate the variation of heights the different roof lines the the the the markers on the corners and and and and that's what it's it's a long process now on the other side I also put here there's a couple of things that they are doing that I think are really good that I think are worth you know exalting like H having that entire corner by the r River to become a public place that's
062something that we were asking last time around and didn't seem to make make a dent and the fact that they're removing that really inefficient crazy weird parking lot that's in front of those buildings and making a green area that for The Pedestrian is is is a much better entry point to the downtown so basically that's kind of a summary of you guys can read it but that's what the intent was I was just wondering also you you had um Focus this on Item B of the seven points did you think it all it seems to me that some of it might also be C like there you said there was only one C is that the conceptual project design is generally appropriate for the site on which it is located so I it seems to
063me oh well I guess I guess yeah I applies to both okay that's fine I just wanted to I just want to see if you no no that's a mistake then absolutely yeah okay by definition yeah this I mean I agree with everything that Marcelo said and the way the framing is on point B I have the same comment on I think Point c as well I think and I think it behooves us to um put comments forward on any of the ones that we sort of have any angle on I think like my lawyer brain says like let's comment on as many of these as we possibly can I agree that to me be and C certainly you know and a lot of the comments about be I think work for c as well
064but just I think some of a lot of the public concern we've heard around this is you know the conceptual project design is generally appropriate for the site like you know concern about scale and things like that I think that comes in to see for sure and then the other thing I wanted to note is just and I don't have all the you I wasn't on the board when this project um was originally here for all of that time my very first meeting as a board member was the meeting that um it was withdrawn so literally you have fresh fresher eyes than but but what I wonder about whether or not there might be an opportunity to comment on G as to control of the site just with respect to some of the unique history
065on that site and the fact that there are EPA considerations there um and I think that we've received some notes from the public about whether or not um it might be sort of fully within whether or not there might be some restrictions there due to sort of the history of that site but isn't that a term of art like legally control the meaning that that that the ownership is is secure I think ownership and control are both terms of Art and you can own a site but not have unfettered control over what you do with it so I looked into that because this these this is kind of like a shorthand for the actual language of the of the language um and so in reviewing um the mass government chapter 40b handbook for zoning board
066of appeals which by the way talks about planning board role and all of this as well um the control is based on the applicant or related entity owns the site or holds an option or contract to acquire such interest in the site or has such other interest in the site as is deemed by the subsidizing agency to be sufficient to control the site so there's got to be a docu a contract of sours yes and so you know we I think the only comment we as a planning board can make is that we have no evidence of such control period and that it's to the subsidizing agency to determine if adequate control is there I am very concerned about control because as far as I know this is still owned by the applicant that was
067before us so this new applicant to me has zero control but I have no evidence of it because I've never seen any contract um so I think as a planning board I would be most comfortable saying I have no no comment and that the subsidizing agency needs to investigate whether this applicant has control so that's my interpretation of that isn't I mean aren't these seven findings the things that at least the way she explained it on site are those are the things she's going to look at so she is going to determine or the state is going to determine through her if this applicant has control of the site whether we know or don't know who has controll of the site it seems in a way irrelevant right because no matter what we say they're
068going to determine that and how how would we know I'm I'm just yeah it's so it's like are we really are we going through these even though but she did say that exactly at the meeting she said these this is the criteria that we are going to look at that's it we're not going to look outside this at all but we're going to dig into this and so any comments you have for this we'll we'll we'll read basically so the interesting thing is I I know that obviously they have this is what they're responsible for findings but some of the preliminary work I've done like there's a there's a design review guideline for 40b projects which I would argue that project that preliminary submission does not meet that and that's sort of an other of
069these things you could you could smush it under C but I I I disagree I think we need to be very firm and saying like it it does not comply with those other things we don't need to be we don't need think it falls under see um yeah because the design guidelines I read them they're not very extensive but they are clear that context and and context in the town matters right cannot be a disruptive mess that comes into a town well okay I guess I mean I I I could go with that I guess my feeling though is if we don't have to be forced to only comment on those things they should be applicable right but we don't have to be just that she said that that they I guess I'm I mean
070it's just a presentation like we want to be able to present the material to the state in the best way possible if this person who showed up on behalf of the state is thinking about these seven terms this your point fits beautifully under C it's kind of a separate point but it's the same no but Katie's right they they have design guidelines they have some points which are kind of what I was trying to address there in my own work so we can do it both ways we can reference the design we can put it under C and we can expand it it's it's more of like a presentation like how do you want to deliver the information to the state The Heading can be C and then you can just expand to include all
071of that the other question is for Michael because he's going to collect comments from many other boards so how is he going to like that was my question to Peter as well so hold on a minute so so Peter is already organized a couple of these feedback things or is in the process of doing it from other boards but do you want to talk a little bit about that yeah so we took it we took um I was we were on the ZB I was on the z i staff the zba meeting on Tuesday night right and the zba um obviously a little bit different because they're going to be the the board hearing this case um and so they were a little bit more impartial you know what I mean but I think we
072kind of identified The Zing board of appeals are trying to identify areas of interest during the application process that they were interested in the appli going into greater detail such as obviously scale parking traffic Transportation um Ingress egress kind of the meat and potatoes of a of a py plan process um but I am and Alvaro we are compiling them in more of a a memo format um into a Word document that we can kind of be squished together um and so what I would ask if if anybody has to email anything and so Marcel I'm going to take your email and obviously be able to cut and paste it and put into a Word document but at least I think it's to put it in a memo format um to put it in in
073an email into a word doc is the best thing for for me and so then I can kind of cut paste maneuver and develop a product that can be sent back to the planning board but then also sent to Michael umich I mean in looking at the the the handbook for the zoning board of appeals and the process like planning boards get to create their own written comment so I I hope I'm understanding you correctly that this will be a memo on behalf of the planning board that it's not like you're going to cut and paste what we're saying into another document from the town we will have our own memo on behalf of the board and I think we're a key we're literally the very first entity listed as an entity that needs to
074provide public comments so we should have our own memo that is gear towards our position um and I will add that one of the key elements at least in the guide book from the state is if we have a recent comprehensive plan we are the jurisdictional entity that should speak to that now we don't have a recent one but we are very involved in the comprehensive plan that's happening we've been part of a meeting in the box we have opinions about that and we're supposed to include that in our comment we should be thinking about just like to your point in your draft you're talking about some of those things like the vision for downtown Trisha was involved in the recent um changes to the bylaw in downtown like we should make sure to include
075those jurisdictional elements because that's literally what um I'll read you that sentence the planning board should be asked to weigh in on the Project's relationship to the city or town master plan if the plan is current and actively being implemented obviously that doesn't apply to us because we don't have a recent plan but we've been actively involved in the planning process and we should comment to that so I guess that probably better said than I say we we don't need to only focus on this right on these um six or seven things because we may be remiss in missing other comments I don't think we need to be forced to limit to these comments and I would be obset if we did especially given that you have the real deal I me I'm not disagreeing
076with you Kate I see your point what I'm telling you is all of these things that I've commented on can easily be fit into these categories like the comprehensive plan can be fit under the um B or C so I think there's ways for us to find it like I think the next step because we don't have a lot of time like I loved U marcelo's draft I think it's great and I think maybe all of us should kind of pick an element that we're especially interested in and try to augment and make comments for Peter free to to edit my draft too I don't yeah I mean I think um and let me know that I'm wrong you know but like none of the other elements to me um you know a d e
077FG like I don't have anything to say about the proforma like I right I have nothing I've known nothing about that I couldn't begin to tell you if that's working or not so to me the planning the what we do what we do as our as part of the planning board is B and C but I think also like you said everything that you've mentioned everything that's been mentioned so far fits under those and just like when we're putting out um we're going through the criteria it it carries more weight I think when our concern no matter what that is whether it's comprehensive plan or whatever it is if we can fit it into the criteria that you're considering I think that's what we do instead of making our criteria our own B you know
078I do want to comment on the pro fora because I think it's the most complicated element of this process um from what I've been able to gather the proor analysis is that the subsidizing agency does slightly different from the proformer analysis that the zba is going to do um because essentially my understanding and Peter can correct me if I'm wrong is that the agency is basically saying hey the project you're giving us the developer presents it can be viable which is a little different from what the zba has the power to do the zba can actually put pressure and negotiate less density and then there can be an argument made between the developer and the zba whether or not that is viable which is a different profor analysis so to the extent that we want
079to contribute to this profor argument one of the things I'm thinking about what I remember from our meetings with a developer is when we put some discussion or focus on density I remember we were sort of negotiating in a way with the developer and there were certain conversations about what would be or would not be viable I don't know if anybody remembers that um and I was under the impression that the point that we got to was viable and so I think that is a value add to the to the the point that we got the density that ultimately we landed on at the end that ultimately was not approved because the project was withdrawn my recollection is that that was not being viewed as not viable and I think that that is a value
080ad on the proforma piece that that's my recollection too but there's a huge difference is that back then Richard was and he said it many times he was looking for a partner because he did not have it so he was almost hedging his bets now he has a partner that actually is specialist on this type of stuff and they are the ones that's saying that they said it at the at the site they say this a contaminated site there a lot of work we have to do we're going to improve a lot it's very expensive to build so we need 250 units that's how they said well except performa is not up to the developer towns can actually hire their own experts and the zba has the authority to do that sure so it's not
081as simple as saying well they said it's not viable right age so I guess where I'm going with this is I think there is some benefit to our us as a board recognizing that for us less density appeared viable at the time of our meetings prior to the withdrawal and I think that is a value add common to the state what the state does a performa though I don't feel I can come in on any performa I haven't even seen it I don't I guess I don't have even the interest on on on seeing it from that point of view because then you start negotiating with from from from the point of view of I know what's viable and you think something different is viable I don't think the plan board is on that type
082of negotiation I think I think we what what what is not viable to me as presented is the the the negative impact that something like that would have in the downtown as it is and the downtown of the future and I I think that that would make the downtown not viable it will be a disaster if something like that got P so so we're going to given the time we're going to need to move out of this soon not that the discussion is done so we have two options we can look right now at our calendars to see when because we it was mentioned that maybe we can have a separate meeting just to address this issue you know but we can see if we can find a date and time that most of us
083can make it um our time is short obviously we can do that now or we can just table this and we'll get back to later in the meeting but I think even later in the meeting we're looking for a date I think we need a date because we need to draft something okay I mean a couple comments I think so one thing would be starting with your framework and maybe marking up so then things can get inserted they can still be messy as topics right because that I think moves it along but I also think I mean there's a arbitrary um date that Michael Herbert asked May 6 but the but there was an extension to like May 28th or 29th so I'm I'm all for getting things done but I'm also not all for
084like you got squeezed for a deadline that doesn't have to be and secondly there's a public forum May 7th and I think I do not think that we should be submitting comments until I'm not sure everyone can go to that or is interested but at least there might be some topics out of that as well so I don't think we explore if we have more time I think we can explore from Michael if we have more time since we are at the top of the list of planning comments personally in regarding to your second comment I think our letter comes from the planning board and not from the general public they're having their own forum and we are our own board with a different experience than the general public has and both of them are
085viable but our memo is coming from us that doesn't mean we might not pick up on something in that meeting that might influence we think but I want to for me that's very clear that this is a letter a memo coming from it absolutely is but we do represent the public and we may hear something that influence that's right but we also have to have time to process as well you know so can we come up with a proposed deadline to to run by Michael that is resp Michel tomorrow um both deadlines I'll talk to Michael I think you know moving forward and in no sense that I say a memo you know I'm I'm creating the ZB in a memo format and obviously we would do our own for this board uh just to
086clarify that but I think to to start things off I'm happy to talk to Michael I'm happy to forward out out uh excuse me uh marcelo's email um and then also you know if if you do want to have thoughts and ideas put them in writing I think that's the best thing to do send them to you and send them to me and then I'll start to compile it and I can send it back out to everybody else for our meeting for our meeting um or just in general you know I think if you're home on the weekend and you're and you're and you're looking into this stuff and you want to type you know just send it to me and and and Anna you're a very good writer and I think you have a
087lot to to say about this so I think just put it in writing and send it to me and then I can send it back out you know that's also important I think there's another one right coming up another 40 yeah well potentially well so this almost is going to be almost a template for us to correct to frame the framework from which the plan board so it's do it right yeah do it for both Anna if you could yeah I can send some thoughts to well I I was talking about the document you're you're referring to here if you could send either send it to Peter I I might have it already but it's just been a mess of emails Rec and I will I will say that the town of Brookline has a
088very detailed uh 40b website with every single resource you could possibly have on 40b I think I need someone to dumb it down for me right now because I just don't have the I don't either but the beauty you edit it send to me the best yeah the beauty of these documents is that they're searchable so like I search for planning board proforma environmental stuff to just kind of get your eye to it because there's so much material out there um but I think this document would be really good to get to the zoning board of appeals yeah if you can send us the cheat sheet that's what yeah no so we we're we're working on that with the Zoning Board of appears and we're kind of building that up and Alvaro has done a
089very good job in building up our zoning board appeals website with zoning board excuse me with ZB with 40b material and so a lot of the stuff um Anna that you're speaking of is now all linked on our on our website so great uh yes all right so do we want to look at a date for a date time right now or does anyone need a two-minute break before we uh start the public hearing for the NBTA communities to you guys I mean we can all step out when we need a breakr okay everyone steps out when they need to I didn't do the Google pool poll it wasn't really meant to be done because it's getting too complicated so what I'm looking for are okay so can I assume that besides me most people
090cannot meet between eight and five is that a that's a logical besides me a iCal assumption okay so then um I assume five doesn't really work either so if we look really between 6 and 10 because after that we know we all get loopy um are there any what I should say what nights are people like I cannot do it on this day of the week is there any of those Tuesday no Tuesdays okay what what time you say it between 6 and 10 in the evening let's say like that oh okay so but no Tuesdays in general for Deepa right Deepa the fourth Tuesday is challenge the other Tuesday I can you give me a date on the no um we're looking only at April right yeah uh May and that would be in
091person or that would be remote no don't know yet so is it April or May are we looking at ail on May now both uh I think may I think it's due at the end of May but you can give me the May date but we probably won't be going that far I can make it happen on uh when am I traveling um 7:14 and 21 is good tell me the dates that are no 28th no April 28th May 28th no May 28th and no that will be too late anyways I know but I'm just writing it down I think I'm traveling 15th 30th and 1st 30th April and 1st okay and I think I'm traveling the 15th and the 16th of May okay so wait a minute good okay so let me write this
092somewhere else it may be easier to find from the majority and then come back so wait so I went just really clear Deepa no 30th April no April 30th no May 1st and no May 28th okay are we thinking like of virtual 1our meeting to review the draft I don't know yet what did you say Amanda no I said no May and I also can't okay um anybody else have stop on I can't do my well is town meeting May yeah so no May 1 that's town meeting May first town meeting I can't do the second no May 2nd right mine is fluid it typically in general could accommodate almost every day but things come up things come up that that okay but so that I shouldn't I'm trying to El it I'm just trying
093to eliminate the absolute no goes yeah weekends do we have we have one weekend in between or a couple weekends in between are weekends completely out for anybody weekends are harder for me is hard is there a way we can like do like a like at the hour before one of our regular meetings like a 6:15 meeting right before our regular meeting something like that on May 9th that's a long time away though to we're trying to get this thoughts to do so we can start to Mush it together right anyone next a Monday night the 29th and the 6 still alive 6 is going to be the night before but I mean the idea is that work some work starts happening so by the time we meet Peter has received comments people everybody has
094had the chance to digest it and right mhm I see I see we don't start at that time gotcha gotcha got got well we can't really draft it in between among ourselves because that would no no but you're going to start seeing what everybody's thinking we Peter circulates it what about Monday the 29th you said no one no one mentioned a Monday what about this this coming Monday even if it's just for an hour 90 minutes yeah I could do an hour on Monday as long as it's after 6 the only issue is can be remote can be yeah we don't have enough time to to post oh that's right okay is that right public hearing yeah so Monday it's usually 48 hours so so we need to I would have to post it today
095for Monday can we do next and next Tuesday is bad for you the 7 the 30th you say Tuesday on Wednesday I'm tring Tuesday yes it come back Wednesday night okay could we do it Tuesday anyway to kick it off and is it okay just I miss I I don't know if I'm going to be in a room by that time you have this it's okay if you miss I just don't want to I mean there's no requirement that we do this or even have a quorum right um so if you want to hold it for next Tuesday if my day gets over and I'm back in the room I can always join and we can record it and you can add in yeah can we so if that's easier what about the what about
096Tuesday the 30th this coming Tuesday can we find can we just do it a little bit after 6 6:30 perfect 6:30 on Tuesday the 30th try okay let's try it Go post it I know tomorrow morning tomorrow morning that would make the deadline Yeah Tuesday we could still make the deadline you can post it Tuesday and then we'll see if we want that means we need to get comment to Peter like tomorrow I'll double check I'll double check with the clerk's office but usually it's 48 hours in advance um do we want to select another day just in case we have a so the way I'm mean in all practicality I'm looking at that is going to I'm not going to get comments before then I will happily come to the meeting but there's no
097way I have time to do that to push that forward I feel like that I know so I feel like that 30th could be just much more brainstorming bullet points and pushing it along for a next draft that's fine yeah that's what I'm thinking if at all practicality or we're mushing together a draft while we're sitting there something like that more working sessioning session mean I'll try to throw something together but like realistically it means giving it to Peter early tomorrow so he has time to squish it can you send me your document in Word I'll forward I can forward marcelo's document okay and then um and then and and really tomorrow I'll double check with the clerk to make sure that we are going to meet the guide the deadline um regarding the potion
098requirements um for Tuesday okay um and then we'll kind of go from there and what I'll what I can do is I can try to take these a through G's and I can try to take marcelo's language and put it under these and then add some of the things I heard about but you don't need to do that for tomorrow we just need to look at that on Tuesday right for Tuesday yeah so no need toel has already done that leg work hasn't he yeah okay yeah so we have a plan there great where we can hash it out okay and on Tuesday though one of us has to peel out and go to design Review Committee Dam yeah okay yeah okay that doesn't sound like a great plan no I no I think no
099no I think we can make it happen because it's uh it's about brainstorming like you said it's not a final document yeah we can listen to the tape we'll tape it right if we have it you know it's um so no I don't think we should I think we should stick with this it has to be done sooner rather than later let's to stick with it you know and obviously we should check with Michael if turning it in closer to miday works for him so that we could use our next May 9th meeting or whatever for our official wrapup I I yes I'll I'll talk to Michael about that and then um and then kind of go from there and if and if it all comes crumbling down we can um we'll work something out
100and we can organize by email okay all right all right um okay so next on our agenda next on our agenda is the MBTA um MBTA Community zoning bylaw public hearing this is continued from our meeting two weeks ago on April 11th Peter do you need to the whole thing again no okay I do not so um I did think that I should um go through the slides again I mean it's going through them multiple times but I think that we need that for a basis for the discussion both for anyone who's watching at home and and anyone online who's um who may have questions to try to make that as clear as possible um and then we'll obviously talk about our approach to for the next steps so can you you're looking for the
101slide presentation Peter okay okay great okay so first slide no need to spend time there so just to review for people who are unfamiliar with this um the uh restrictions given to us by the state to form an MBTA um uh zoning District uh that these zoning districts have to be at least 50 acres um within Ashland and we have to have a minimum of 20 of those Acres Within a half a mile of our train station the rest can be anywhere in Ashland each we it doesn't have to be in one big Zone it can be in multiple zones but if we break break it up then we each of those has to be at least 5 Acres it can't be smaller within each of those zones covering again at least 50 acres um
102we have to have a minimum density of 15 units an acre on each parcel and we have to allow multif family housing with no age restrictions so these can't be over 55 communities they have to be open to all ages right so there's another component of that and this is unit requirements because Ashen is a commuter rail Community versus a Subway Community or um a adjacent Community correct right have different requirements we're a rail Community because we have a Commuter Rail station in our town we need to provide for 15% of our um housing units by the 2020 census Ashland has 7,495 housing units we have to times that by 15% which gets us 1,124 housing units so that's the amount of housing units we have to provide so now our restrictions are we have
103to have at least 50 acres we have to have a minimum of 15 un per acre and we have to make sure that adds up to at least 1,124 units it's important to understand that none of these units have to be built Zero have to be built we just have to provide the Zoning for it okay next okay so back in the fall um I believe it was in 2023 I want to say September a working group was formed um between the select board and the planning board it it um included myself Trisha Kendall included Town planner Peter machek assistant Town planner um ELO Esparza and um select board member Joel manani and that was the working group our task was to find a means by which Ashlin can fulfill the MBTA requirements so in
104our group we outline priorities our first priority is to what we called use what we have ashin over the um over the years and especially in very recent years has um has um approved of a good amount of housing incl you know starting with Cirrus the Cirrus Apartments um but but other ones as well like the 100 Chestnut Street that's currently in construction so we felt as a community that we were already doing what the MBTA communities Act was asking and that we were providing dense housing around Ashlin so our first priority was use what they have or use what we have I'm not sure why they're all labeled one I one question on the calculation that you showed before projects that have been approved like that one that it's under construction those units count
105for that number or not none of that matters that the land can be completely empty or completely full what's going there now doesn't matter but if they so if that if that parcel ends up in one of those District we don't have to count not counting units we're counting area we're counting how many acres and we're kind and we're counting how many units per per acre were allotting to that zone what is built means nothing okay um so that was number one what intended to be number two priority I don't know where that disappeared was to hold the density as low as we could and I think that's for obvious reasons right um number three is that we wanted to respect the ongoing comprehensive plan process that the town at town meeting voted to dedicate
106$250 $250,000 to a comprehensive plan process we did not want to be making decisions for the town that we thought should come out of the comprehensive plan process so we were very very aware of that do you have a question I I just had a quick comment because I'm assuming you're going to present this a town meeting possibly possibly so I I was just going to say that it may be helpful to edit that second priority we're we're going to uh slightly but we're going to get there eventually that's fine right now I'm focusing on tonight okay next slide I I just wanted to say that there's been some critique in other communities that communities are uh trying to slide around the MBTA regulations and I think it's we need to be careful because I
107don't think we're sliding I think we're doing what's lawfully allowed and my only suggestion would be that priorities should be edited to say as low density as Allowed by MBTA zoning it's not that we're aiming for the lowest density possible ever we're we're respecting the MBTA bylaw or the requirement from the state yeah and we're aiming for low density per state allowance yeah we obviously can't go lower than what the state mandates so I exactly it might just be yeah okay um so what we what we started to focus on were three um districts so um the first one is in the rail Transit District there's two there's two partials in that one is Cirrus and one um is is paral a which is is is not uh is not Cirrus it's not developed at
108the present time the second is the Wildwood district and that where that's pointing at that purple that is the 100 Chestnut Street um project that is currently in construction and then pwn street so item D over there points to Pawn Street it's right on that ashlin's border it includes both the 501 Pawn Street Lot which has an approved project a project that was approved for that lot it is not in construction at this time and it includes the um residents of Valley Farm um um facility next door and and we did that because uh those Parcels weren't big enough to be included on their own so we put them together as a Zone okay so um just to go through these various zones um uh uh let me start with Cirrus which is at the
109bottom B just because the way the letters were um this is the one project that is currently completed and built um the current density of that it it's a little tricky in this Zone in Zone A and B because we also have to take into account are zoning that is currently in effect in those districts so in this District in the rail Transit District it says you have a certain acreage but you're not allowed to build on 30% of it right according to our current bylaws in that District so we have to Discount that a little bit right so in effect if we the current density say for Cirrus um on the books it would say 20 but really the effective density is only 14 because you can't build on 30% of the lot right
110and the state looks at all of that you have to submit all that to the state right so um so the same with ugc right the property a is ugc that's an that's been an approved over 55 friendly 40b Community um but it is currently in litigation that site um so the same thing with that the density is proposed dens it if we talk about both of those property as being proposed if we put it at a density of 22 the effective density is 15 because you can't build on 30% of the lot what why why can't you build on it's in our bylaws right now District this this is this is redoing the bylaws so I don't understand how I I don't understand that it's complicated right you still have to build that into
111your model and so when you get into your when you get get into your compliance is when you get into your compliance module with the state there's a compliance model right you have to build in certain aspects what's required open space parking all these other items right so we've had to do the reverse math into to provide what is the base of 15 units per acre once you start working within that bylaw and so we came up with 22 and that's going to work for us um and that was reviewed by our consultants and it uh it's a number that was kind of hit and I understand what you're saying like well why can't you just wipe it all out and start from scratch we can but it's complicated right it's complicated and if you
112remember our first premise use what we have right so but the part about 30% because our current zoning I I'm just having a hard time because this is this is new zoning that's being proposed yes and no yes and no I mean um it's not none of it is entirely new because even if when you're in the Wildwood District you still have to pay attention to the zoning of the Wildwood District you still have to pay attention to that you don't just get to ignore it so but but just to clarify what Kate is asking so what would pass in town minut if these gets voted positively would be an overlay District or is just for compliance with the state that is not a zoning District they are separate districts separate yeah yeah separate zoning
113districts respect the own L zoning District that exist I think I think Kate's point is I think what Kate is saying is can't we just rezone entirely from scratch and I think what Peter is saying is that this is a more viable option you take the zoning as is and then you essentially edit it you create an overlay District on top of it that's a separate one you're not creating a new overlay not overlay but Ed right and you're making them compliant right and because there's all different criteria at the state regulations and so what we're trying to do is we're trying to make a current Zone that we have RTD we're trying to make that compliant with the state regulations and we have to make some changes to it some edits right so we're
114proposing to make edits to the existing bylaw of the RTD to make that opposed to deleting it and creating correct that's why and that's what everyone's doing yep but it but it seems like you're taking more of potentially taking more of the parcel out which makes makes us look at other Parcels to be added right like I I guess the point is I mean I respect the process that we said RTD the town agreed 20 something years ago to make a rail Transit and if there's more acreage to be squeezed out of there for MBTA I I'm just wondering I I get it but right now this is the warrant that has been submitted we can't make any of those changes now right so I need to present this as it is now right and
115then yeah I I will say it is consistent with how other communities are doing it like it's consistent with practice to how this is being done yeah so there's a there's infinite number of ways we can do it this is the approach that taking at this time yeah okay so let's go on to the so that's that's real Transit District okay the other two districts um are a little simpler thank god um uh 100 Chestnut Street again the the current density what is being um what was allowed um what was approved is the density of 29 units an acre and we set that at 29 units an acre pwn Street has a a which was approved a a density of 32 units an acre we set it at 32 units an acre we did also
116have to include the residence of Valley Farm which is already built that obviously doesn't have the same density um but those two those two um projects are to those two lots are together okay so um what uh yeah something happen obviously that side is misaligned yeah sorry what is going on was it Mis lined on your screen as well yeah it is what's going on just put it up I think if as long as we can see everything a minute I think this was just about the this was I think explaining the unit count um there you go okay so this was just it's kind of almost aligned but this was just trying to go over um oh okay this was going over the um the ugc and the TW and the Acres that are
117going to come back to the town um regarding the development yes so was also trying to explain was also trying to explain as part of the complexity of this also having to do with the rail transic District once um once the last parcel of the rail transic district is developed which would be ugc in this case the Covenant on that property which is also still in effect and also still has to be taken into account the Covenant says that 20 acres are donated back to the town right so that's something we also had to take into consideration which lowers the effective acreage we have available in those areas so even though those sites seem very big they're not as big as they seem because of the layers of Covenant and Zoning that's already there and
118really those 20 acres within a covenant that we have when we purchase that land area within the RTD District um that land is going to come back to the town of Ashen right and so and that's with Ed development agreement for ugc and so one of the restrictions of the state from the state's point of view is you can't no town can Zone their own property right and so what we're doing here is we're subtracting that acreage excuse me we're retaining it to we're retaining that acreage so we're not even taking putting that into the calculator so we're not so we're not getting ahead of ourselves so we're not impacting public land correct Yeah in our future public land and we're taking account for it yeah so I wanted to have in that in there
119but it's hard because it's not quite reading it's not aligned but anyway that's what that slide was about let's hope the next one is aligned yes okay so this was where I was this is where I was trying to explain about the acres and the 30% I mentioned it earlier this was talking about taking the Acres minusing 30% and then you have the Acres that are left to work with so you're removing the public land no not on this part so you're taking away your 30% of the land that needs to be open SPAC indor imperious servic you're leaving the open space as is correct I think this is really important for the public to know and I'm not sure it's clear enough from the slides like we are not taking or removing open space
120we're not taking or removing public land like yeah that's really key let's get through and go back to anything that we need to go back to because it is really hard to understand okay but the important thing as we tried to I'm sorry for these alignments this align two weeks ago as you know because you guys were here you're such an architect like no it doesn't it TR you don't worry I'm like on the words I'm fine you guys are so much in pain yeah so but what what all this is trying to do is to show that the unit count adds up to what it needs to we have to tell we have to be able to say to the state we are Zoning for 1,124 units and the numbers we have placed on
121this thing on these four properties that we're dealing with add up to 1,124 units no buffer no buffer but we don't really need a buffer um Alvaro has already had a preliminary conversation they they agree it seem well it it's not like a it's not guaranteed till everything goes through but they already Tak a preliminary look at look at all this and it it seems okay we've already sent everything all the all the numbers have been looked at and reviewed by our consultant rkg that did the feas the economic feasibility study all the bylaw changes have been checked out by the AG's office okay so that's where we were let's say a month ago what's the next sline okay this is what started to bothers a little bit um of the projects that we have
122that we're considering on this cus is obviously built right it's highly unlikely that it's going to be torn down and changed um but the 100 Chestnut Street is in construction right it's it's going it's they got their Bild building permit they're rolling the other two projects which are 501 Pawn Street and the um ucg project um which is the friendly 40b are not in construction um not starting to be built and so there's a risk there that if we change the zoning in those areas and both of them are 25% affordable the friendly 40b is 25% affordable 501 Pawn Street is 25% affordable that's the agreement but if we change these two MBTA communities we're not allowed to put that restriction on them so given that those two projects are not yet into construction they
123could potentially say I withdraw my project I'm resubmitting the project at the same density without the affordability compon component except for 10% right that's the risk not the risk that you'd have more units the risk that you would lose the affordable component yeah so that it's a risk right so um that's what that slide is explaining so this is where we are today however many weeks ago two weeks ago maybe a little bit more I don't remember anymore the town received notice from the state that we have a 40b application for 10 to 60 Main Street um that um what is being proposed there now is 32 units in acre right on that site that's the 250 units so what we are wondering and this is this has come out of the working group and
124also some other voices as well um is if since now we have this 40b project that obviously isn't finished it's obviously not you know it's just the beginning of its process and we have a second 40b project that is looking to come in that seems to be in process I do not think we haven't received notice from the state yet on that project is that right we have not received it but it's imminent it's imminent so to us on the working group to the four of us on the working group to us we label this a GameChanger that this is new information that we didn't have before it didn't exist before and we feel that it's information that we should use in our process to make a better approach for Ashland um because things over
125the next six months can change quite a a bit both with the two projects that we have currently approved but are not in construction and with figuring out what's going to be happening with these 40b projects all of that information is up in the air and um we're now concerned or that the proposal that we put forth as the best option for Ashland because of the circumstance things changing totally Beyond anyone's control May no longer be the best option for Ashland so I as I expressed two weeks ago when we discussed this my personal view is that this should wait to fall town meeting so that we can see how these other factors beyond our control play out and thus Perhaps Perhaps present the exact same thing at town meeting or perhaps not depending on
126the how everything swirling around us plays out as much as it will play out in the next six months I think that's kind of the last slide that's where we are Trisha when you say play out can you can you define the the what is the upside and the downside like simply the um so forb come they start developing so what what will play out so what would play out is that the acreage that the the acreage that the 40b projects take that use right and again if we look at just 10 to 60 M what's currently proposed we don't know if it's going to be that way what's currently proposed is 32 units an acre so even if we said we want to use that property that's housing right that's providing housing providing housing
127near our downtown even if we set it at 15 units an acre half of what's being currently proposed we can use those acreage to lower the um the needed density on maybe ucg maybe on 501 it so that it makes it less lucrative for those projects to change pull and to eliminate the affordability component so it's it's all geared to retain that affordability that those projects are provided to mitigate risk I would say yeah so let's be clear a 40b right now is 25% affordability and the proposal that you're making is that we make that area by right which means the exact risk you're indicating that applies to Pond would apply to this project it's the exact same problem if we now make this Main Street project by right as part of the MBTA zoning
128we're essentially eliminating the benefit of 40b 40b scares people because they feel that they have no control that is a myth 40b allows communities 25% affordability in a real way and it gives the state direct regulation over how those apartments are controlled which we at the Town level do not have and so there are massive benefits to keeping this situation as is especially since no offense but the current owner of that property has a history of withdrawing projects so to me this is not a GameChanger I don't feel comfortable changing the approach based on the will of one applicant who has a history in this community of withdrawing applications and moving applications around and I personally think 40b is an opportunity for the zoning board of appeals in this community to negotiate correctly and the
129regul ations for 40b allow for a very substantive analysis of proor of viability and environmental issues that frankly by right we do not have if we make it by right if we Zone this for MBTA we're going to lose a lot of the statutory benefits of 40b that we as a town don't have we're not the state of Massachusetts so I'm not I don't see this as a game Cher if anything the 40b project of Main Street reiterated my position that absolutely should not include Main Street as part of the MBTA work that we're doing and I will add I will add one last point which is that our thinking before the priorities that we set when we started working with the working group as the planning board and select board together was to honor
130prior elements of this community that we already had public hearings on and we already approved actual projects with density this project no no one has had a public hearing yet no one has approved so to think about it as something that is a game Cher I strongly disagree with I think we we talked about this a little bit at the last meeting if we include that property it doesn't it doesn't impact their 40b they still go for it at 40b at the 25% affordable if they want to if they want to because we have no uh we don't need the threshold but I think but if they don't they would lose they would lose the benefit for them of it of right they lose theity it's a Hu so as Trisha proposed it we we
131could obviously play with the numbers but it's a drastically lower density that we would propose right it would be a major trade-off for them to sort of pull the 40b and and what they're currently proposing to reduce down to what it would be zoned by right for and then the unless they're in this room to tell us that they're going to agree to the density that we're going to establish by right and withdraw their 40b you're purely speculating we have no evidence of that letter finish but I also think that the it's not we're not saying this is what we're going to do and re and tweak for ftown meeting we're saying let's buy ourselves six months and information gather and give ourselves time because it's not just this property it's also concerns at um
132plot a and or Zone a and I think that we have the ability to gain more information and mitigate the risks that exist because the only our only path forward to minimize our exposure to 40b is Affordable units in town and we have two projects that are currently approved at 25% affordability that we that would be included in this proposal that we have exposure on if we go forward in this way and it it's sort of I think it was our best it was a fantastic proposal sort of and then now we have additional information and it's it's just a matter of we're not saying let's absolutely include 1060 in the next proposal or for the for a fall town meeting it's just saying let's take a minute and use the time we have between
133now and the fall to glean additional information and then make a decision is how I understand it and I'm personally all for just sort of getting some more information I I think that's that's exactly right this is not about oh I we have a new plan that we're just not telling you it's about whoa there's a lot of different things that have been happening there's a lot that could happen over the next six months don't we want to use that information to put together the best plan for Ashlin not that we not the one that we thought was the best plan for Ashlin two months ago wait but the best plan for Ashland in six months as close as we can get to having all the information that's just where that's where we sit on
134the committee after filtering through all this information for six months I mean with all due respect there was a ton of work done by um by everyone to get us here pushing this to fall gives the public very little chances at a second shot because we have a deadline with the state this argument that the better plan is to make Main Street by right is is exactly the kind of argument that should happen at town meeting the spring um I think that would be a really interesting argument to present I disagree with that argument I like to see the Public's reaction to that argument oh instead of making it by right the areas that we've already approved as density why don't we make Main Street density and I have a feeling that's not going to
135fly now if you want to push it to the fall and you think in six months we're going to have an approved project at Main Street that's naive we're not this project is going to take severe time it is an environmentally complex project project the state regulations are very vigorous for 40b the zoning board of appeals is just starting to look at their obligations there will not be an answer in six months all this will do is push it to the last minute with the state and that's not appropriate but I I don't think this is looking for an answer in that way I I guess I'm having trouble understanding all but I I get the points but adding that site at a different density is not at all an incentive for them to change
136the 40b it in fact is an incentive to just see it through and maybe negotiate with town to see it through because is is the owners and the developers is in their best interest to get as much density as they want that's what they that's what they're doing they're doing it that's what they're doing otherwise they would have done the project that Richard had had submitted before so I don't think that one is there's nothing to to what we're going to see in that 6 months and that's what I'm trying to understand I know that there's Joe said before there is a litigation on the other side that could be resolved in that period and that would be that's a risk because if if if if it if if if we go ahead and keep
137it I guess it could become an incentive for them to withdraw it realistically realistically they don't no one seems to expect that litigation to resolve itself in the next six months but if it if if it if the project if it did get the resolved and the project moved forward that's less risk because the project we the project we didn't approve it was the onlyon board of appeals but that project would be moving forward as the town intended right it's important to know that the 1060 project 1060 main project that we were looking at I believe the units had gone down to 180 that's correct is that right 100% y so at 188 I believe the density it's about 8 Acres correct the density would still be the project we were looking at the density
138was still 23.5 units an acre which that the proposed project is at 32 we maybe not having a right answer on this we could set it as low as 15 so it's really hard for me to understand how a 40b would be dropped at 32 units an acre but yet they could make it viable at 15 units an acre if they could great but I don't see that I I don't see that happening I think the proof of the process that we went through actually proves that that it would not because it was the argument was that it was not feasible then at that number correct and nobody partnered with Rich Gordon to move that project forward he couldn't Finance it correct so you're saying propose it at 15 and take density down elsewhere correct
139I'm not yeah just to take advantage essentially of the fact that there's going to be high density there anyway right on a project we have not yet approved so um it's a it's an interesting concept the problem I have with it is I we need to meet the state deadline number one number two is we've already have approved areas of density again this project has a history coming in and coming out approve it disapprove it it's a little bit of an unstable history so but that was not this project that was a project that did not have a partner that's specialist on there's we have no we have no evidence of control remember so don't assume it's a different project no I I assume it because it is in in the sense that let's let's
140let one person talk at a time Marcel can you finish your thought because a a project that that knowing the side and the complications that the site has which which we all looked way back then there's no way to me as an architect I I I and I think we mentioned it back then we were looking at that project so that project is not feasible not as being proposed and and they struggle with it because of that now what what what whatever they end up building here this is a project what that that Richard found a person an entity that does this type of work for for a living and and that that that got the interest only I think because they can do it at a higher density so in other words that that
141proves to me that there's absolutely no incentive for them to to go back on it the the reason before they withdrawn they withdraw was exactly what what what Richard was lacking that he now has Amanda you were going to comment yeah I think um just to build on these points I think the idea of including it at 15 units an acre Which is far lower than what it had gotten down to when it was before the planning board far far lower than what it's proposed on as a 40b again this isn't about what actually is going to be built right we could include that parcel and have it at 15 units an acre and it could say exactly the way that it is if they withdraw the 40b that's fine I think as a board
142we probably have enough information to say it's not viable at 15 units an acre for just from the experience of this project and where it its trajectory is so I I view the risk of someone I view the risk of saying like we're going to make that by right and then end up somehow the state and the consultant going to look at this if it's not viable at 15 like is that going to fly like are we going to if we if we use this it's not about what's being built it's just about being built they don't care they just they don't care it's about the Zone they're not looking at a per there's no perform just hedging to say like this is this is a property that is you know it is not going
143away I think is is what we had said last meeting like it it is it's maybe it does and it comes back in another form like it's not I think the idea that it's going to like completely evaporate forever is probably not true and so I think knowing that you know 15 years Saker probably not viable we include it in our analysis or in our proposal and retain what we what we do have that is valuable elsewhere which is the 25% affordability which we could lose because we have two Parcels in our proposal that don't have building permits out and aren't built and they could withdraw those parcels and complet and do withdraw those projects and do something completely new under that zoning where we lose that 25% affordability I think there's a loss there
144and I don't see a loss at 1060 but I also think it's not that's not even the decision we have to make today all we have to do today is say like do we want time to consider this given the information that came to us two and a half weeks ago that's correct 100% so the I don't understand why this can't be brought to town meeting and simultaneously evaluate because we will not have any other answers we we're still surmising right and so that it it does need time to investigate and unfortunately like the applications said we knew about this way back in January the town was notified I don't know if that's true but it's on the application so the the notion of a couple weeks ago I I don't think is true it
145might have filtered down to be considered a couple weeks ago but what's the harm of going to town meeting explaining all of this including where we are this proposal partially accepted reviewed town lawyer looked at it's all good and explaining that there's another option that we're investigating but get it voted on things can change none of the 10 to 60 Main Street will not be given an permit between now and November town meeting the other parcel that's in court I don't think will be decided withdrawn and submit a new application by to me I think that's probably nearly impossible and I don't know about um I guess there is probably possibly Pawn Street but I don't know what the holdup is but I know Peter talks them maybe we can get some more information but
146I also feel strongly about as I said from the beginning that town once people do not look like it's they're over a barrel you have to the first time I'm seeing it is November town meeting you have to pass or else we're going to be in whatever mitigation with the state getting sued like Milton or whatever if it doesn't pass I I think we're in a very different position position that to comparing ourselves to Milton I think we have we've that that view has surfaced a one a little bit of fighting back and not doing this but generally I think the town has approached it in a very systematic way and also shown over previous years that we are providing housing we are providing exactly the type of housing that they're asking for almost over
14755 doesn't count can't be over 55 you know there's some little restrictions that we'd have to take off but we've been providing dense housing my my personal my personal question to myself is is as a person who has been working very hard trying to understand all of these bylaws and how they fit in and going through different iterations and whatever my personal question to myself is how do I how do I put forward something at town meeting and support it when I actually am not sure it's the best solution for Ash and that's what I'd say here and that's what I would say at town meeting that two months ago I thought it was the best solution for Ashlin and now I don't know and as much as I would like I said this before
148as much as I would like to just cross this off my to-do list and go on with my life I I think I still want to do the best job for Ashland and now I don't know maybe this is maybe this is the best we can do but I don't know if that's true so originally when I heard your comments I was concerned that you were proposing meeting the density by right if 15% is what you're proposing and we know that that's going to remove density at Pawn Street or actually I'm in a butter so I can't comment on that that it will remove the risk at the other sites right so if the M the math can be done there could be a point there like for me how quickly can we do the
149math how quickly can we see if we do 15% me Street what can we remove from the listan last meeting we were running it and this is the thing right with zoning bylaws right once we put have a bylaw we worked our tail off Alvaro I can't tell you how much Alvaro worked myself Trisha Joe we worked right but in the grand scheme of things you know our whole thing was we're not going to we're not going to include 10 to 60 you know with the whole process we stayed away from it the whole time right and we tried to work around what we've had what permits are already out there right but regarding what the numbers are so you do have a big major compliance model that it takes that's that's a huge process
150to to run the numbers right it doesn't happen overnight the entire situation is is that we have to come up with these bylaws and finalize them right way before our public hearing and advertis them in the newspaper right so there's just this lag time that goes in and forth this this approach and I'm can to tell you right now as a town planner was the best approach that we could come up with as a town taking advantage of it right but due to these changes things change right and that's what we're trying to do an is we're saying okay the the the the field has changed right it's starting to Tilt at a different angle so let's understand where the angle where the water is going to run and let's catch it and let's take
151advantage of it and then let's redistribute right and so what we're saying and and we've kind of said a couple different times is um we can re cture the numbers and redo them and reduce that stress other places but we just can't do them overnight right and we can't we couldn't do them at the last meeting in time to change the bylaw yeah well we can't change the bylaw in time correct but we could do the math we could do the math 110 where and that's what I think kind of finished that's what we want to do is we want to redo the math redo the model and see what makes sense with those pieces right now in the meantime I understand Kate your point regarding you got one vote you got one vote you
152know however we've worked with very closely with the state right we have submitted our bylaws to the attorney general we are working with the state we are trying to work towards compliance so I think we're in a different situation than a Milton right but I can tell you right now as a town planner if we have information for the next coming in for the next six months and we have six months more months of information to run and to calculate and to figure out what is the best option for Ashland I can tell you right now we can come to fall town meeting with a better bylaw for the town of Ashland and that's what we're trying to do and that's what we're trying to get for the town of Ashland and I don't want
153to think that the town's over Barrel in the fall but I want to say you have this is the best option to move forward into gain compliance but in theory we can come to tell meeting next week with this draft and the numbers of what would happen if Main Street was % we could we we don't need the full draft to have that conversation with the public but but I think it's just the ideas of that because 10 to 60 is just it's just one component what what about what about the other one which is what that's because the only new thing is 10 to 16 so what else could be changed well we have a second 40b that's knocking on our door right so there are other things maybe 501 Pawn Street will go
154into Construction in the next 6 months that will be that will take away like oh they're going forward right with the with the with the 25% as permitted right so there are there are other things like almost all everything that's not in construction and not built there's something else that could happen I'm not saying it will I don't know all I'm saying is that I would like those facts 6 months from now so that I personally could present what I think is the best plan in six months to the residents of Ashland that's not my choice that's our that's our vote together that's town meeting but that's my personal perspective that I think I have another opportunity to that I think I could do a little bit better given the things that have changed and
155I agree that with the concerns about you the public and wanting to give people an opportunity I think we all wanted to go for it at Springtown meeting for that reason at I think we were all on that same page I just think this is a very good reason and there are there are you when I'm at the regional collaborative meetings there are a lot of towns deferring to the false town meeting and it's not necessarily for like a super compelling reason like this it's because like there was a glitch with the consultant or the math was wrong or they can't like they can't get it out in time and like that I feel like we're not coming to the town of Ashton in the fall and saying like you know it it things were
156nuts up for whatever X Y and Z reason so we had to delay to the fall and now you have to decide and again completely understanding those things happen we're not in that situation we're in a situation where we're saying listen you know at fall time meeting we say we think that we we took the time to put a better bylaw together for the town of Ashland to come into compliance with this requirement that we have from the state this is why we're coming forward in the town meet we don't in the fall we're not we are not trying to put the town over a barrel this this is the context and this is what we have now and this is the best and this is why we believe this is the best proposal maybe
157it's this one that's in front of us now and maybe it's a better one so for me the Crux of it is 30 or 15 because if we're going to push it to fall and we're going to end up with 30 at that site that's a problem because then we're going to run out of time and we're going to present the public with a strict deadline by the state and we could be non-compliant unless we approve high density at Main Street so to me that's that's also a risk right because once we open that up I mean we're not voting today on 15 we're voting to open it up and have a conversation so I think we all just need to be aware once you open it up you could be looking at high density
158above 15 by this September so but I don't think that we I don't think that the working group would propose density of 30 at 1060 that removes the Strategic Advantage we we're not proposing anything right we're right now we're trying to say let's look at the things that are changing and see right if we can do better maybe we can't maybe we can't yeah let's see if we can do better let's have the opportunity to do better versus throwing away the opportunity to do better and it's that exact point that maybe pwn Street goes under construction and like the risk of that 25% affordability evaporating goes away any of those I guess what I'm saying is I am actually comfortable with that risk if I'm not getting 30% density of Main Street me personally and
159so I just want to I don't I don't want to be naive once you push this to fall there is a risk that you're going to have high density at Main Street above 15 I but that would happen regardless anyways there the chances that not by right it would be a 40b project that has State regulation including now right now but if you have MBTA proposal it would be by right at higher density but but remember that the mpta proposal is us it's us and we're going to have the we'd have to have the same forums which which we had in this time and we would have the same public hearings and the same disc discussions with the planning board and the select board it's not the four of us just sneakily putting numbers on
160things right everything has to be approved by the board everything has to be it's dis you know it's like and guess what I'm saying is we already did this analysis we already thought about density at Main Street we already voted against it right so opening this up simply because there's a 40b right in order to Red discuss high density at Main Street is directly contrary to the analysis we already had but I think we're not discussing density and Main Street that way the density is taking place we are reacting to what is happening so that's the this is the Mis misconception you have to let him finish his thought Anna so what I think more on the lines of what Kate was was thinking I think that the the town does have a like there
161is a pressure on the on the vote but it's not because of this the state is putting the pressure on all these towns to do this or else you lose these grants and that that is the real pressure the the this Vote or the vote on the fall is a decision on do we want to be more um conscientious and fastidious about the numbers to make sure the vote that we are being pressured to take is as as wealth thought out as possible that's really I I I I don't I I I think maybe if we getting too much into the WIS like we are not creating that pressure the pressure was put upon us right by the state so we are reacting and I think if there's a group and I trust this group
162because I was not part of it but I know there's a lot of work that has been done and by default a project or two projects of 40b that are coming it's a by default is a game Cher to the downtown is game changer I don't know where the other one will be we'll find out but it is it it it is another level of pressure why not consider it carefully I do want to have an opportunity to take public comment if anyone wants to talk about uh MBTA communities and that goes for online as well please raise your hand online if you wish to speak Peter can you watch well can you manage the yeah I'll manage you online but Mr Mark do is at the microphone how much time do I have our
163meetings only always go long so I'd appreciate three minutes Mark and no more okay thank you Mark the 49 hathon Road it's it's group talking group thinking but but it's a big PowerUp of what NBTA is putting the pressure on set forth the housing excuse me I don't want to yell the housing no wait a second let's get back the zoning before anything goes through has to be Rewritten and weo through town Meen and then bring over to the attorney general and have them then State out what they want to say and have pass a fail the math is the math is numbers but what I'm hearing is two words maybe and if if that can't get past those two words and hoping the Attorney General can get things going this is going to be
164a round round circle discussion with no in thank you jungen Friday one road um I'm here as a resident right now um I this just boggles my mind truthfully um but I'm trying to understand um there's a couple of questions that I have um if we pass pass it at in the spring if we pass the current proposal in the spring can you then go back and change it in the fall yes yes okay um to because to me so far I mean I think you all know I I hate the whole thing but that's beside the point is you've done a huge amount of work and I've totally respect that I I really really do I can't even imagine having to do it um but I do think that the plan that you've come
165up with is it incorporates be careful how I say this I guess but it incorporates how it incorporates things that are basically already built or planned for and I think to Anna's Point by opening up 10 to 60 Main Street the worst thing to do there is to allow them to build by right and I and I know what they're building what 40b is this close to that so it's I I don't really honestly know how you're going to come with the answer but I I guess if we go to town meeting and it passes in the passes the spring town meeting and and things change and you really realize that it needs to change then yes we have to come back to fall but for right now this seems to be the best plan
166for us um my other question is why can't add into the zoning 25% affordable across the board or or 12% or some number I I I I know but why I I don't understand why I I'm just asking the question are um are you asking it in terms of Ashland or in terms of projects at hand um Ashland yeah yeah so I mean we were looking at an inclusionary zoning bylaw um a few years back um that uh that didn't make it through the planning board meeting and so we decided at that time to wait until the comprehensive plan to have more input on the next hopefully iteration of an inclusionary zoning meeting we're not allowed by the state to make the MBTA zones 25% affordable we we actually had a consultant that came in
167and do did an analysis that gave us the numbers about what would be acceptable for the affordability the state will allow us to do 10% in MBTA districts and I think one zone which one was it Pawn Street the pawn Street overlay district from a financial standpoint would support 12.5% at affordable rate but that's all we can that's all we could put in our Zoning for these areas as part of the MBTA as part as the MBTA as part of the MBTA technically the town can always reone separate from this right we can always be the MBT process we can't go above 10% or 12 for that one District but as part of the comprehensive plan we could have inclusionary Zoning for the entire town or sections of it that are different from what the
168state considers viable for the NBTA District you just have to remember that there's other complexities with um inclusionary zoning you can't just put a blanket on something and say that now everyone has to provide 25% affordable because it has to do with property rights and the value value of property because as soon as you say now you have to have 25% of your property affordable you've now decreased somebody's property value instantly right because they have to provide for those units thus when we had the inclusion area zoning Proposal Part of That was if you had an increase in affordable units you you got compensated by an increase in density or a decrease in parking things like that so you're trading the value so it's a little bit more complicated you have to trade you have
169to trade the parking space you can't take away someone's property value with zoning the bottom line inclusion or zoning is a is seen as a density I mean it's seen as a density but SE it's a bonus right so if you're what you're doing is if if you're allowing 100 units you're allowing really you're asking them to build at 110 right so that 10% those 10 units are discounting Excuse me yes those temper those 10 units are discounting the impact on the town subsize housing inventory and there are other considerations too that other communities that have increased their um affordability thresholds are observing that they're experiencing far more 4bs and because developers are just choosing to go the 40b route rather than comply the difference is so small rather than comply so why go go
170through the town and go to the planning board when you can just do the 40b and have a very comparable affordability number so there's a lot of pros and con I think it's a complicated yeah the now around the head right there there's pros and cons to each tactic right and if you know areas of you know urban areas not Ash right uh east of us right have a have a higher sa have a higher um inclusionary zoning percentile right but also though their demographics their densities their their the value of the the property and the land those are also going to support a higher subsized housing inventory I mean a higher inclusionary zoning percentile and I think you know say it's 15% right um and so yeah what is the difference it's 10% but
171in some cases yes it's driving people towards a f 40b and they're asking for all waivers of a town bylaw and so there's a pro and a con to everything um that's what I'm pretty that's what a takeaway is so not to take away from anything that you work that you've all done absolutely as I said I totally respect what you've done I know it's hours and hours of work and days and days of work um but it seems to me that the state is now mandating 40b it's now mandating MBTA and it's mandating what we can do for affordable and I think it's just insane so that's just my personal opinion but um thank you thank you for the hard work okay good luck thank you okay all right so um another gentleman sorry
172yeah uh Curtis Hoffman um hildale Road forgive my naive in this because I'm fairly new to the um historical commission if the total number of units at Main Street were reduced though the number of affordable units remained the same would that not help with the percentages so you're you're saying so if the number of units decrease correct yes so say the project went from 250 to 200 yeah okay cuz I'm looking at a fivestory tall and what's the what was the Second Step but they the number of affordable units in that remained the same as it was when it was 250 correct So within a 40b process a comprehensive permit 20 the and this is a law that hasn't changed since for a long time right so regarding 40b conference and permits 25% of those
173units in total have to be considered affordable and those are protected to folks making up to or less than 80% of air immediate income which allowed the town to add all 20 units on a rental project excuse me all 200 units on a rental project to the the subsid the subsidizing housing inventory yeah no I understand that yeah so I'm just wondering whether if just hypothetically uh the Main Street project were four stories instead of five but the number of affordable units were the same as it was when planned with five if that would not assist in the percentages that you're trying to achieve but the MTH the mouth wouldn't work though yeah the the problem is that as as the number of affordable units goes up relative to the overall units no I'm not
174saying the number of affordable oh relative to the Rel right the project is more it's it's less it's less profitable yes for and and so they it doesn't get built ah so that's the other kind of risk in other words yeah you you the numbers don't work out mhm for them they work out nice for us but they don't work out for them okay thank you thank you I misunderstood so um I don't see anyone online our big crowd on these discussions so we do need to figure out what we're going to do with this tonight there are several options and I want to say that because this situation is unusual uh it's way past my level of experience earlier in the week I requested a meeting with our working group and with um Michael
175Herbert and with um Jen ball to understand to understand things from the big picture to see if I was missing anything from their point of view right um and they didn't they didn't really say that we were missing anything like why wouldn't and Joe and I were both like why wouldn't we wait until fall and they didn't they didn't think we were missing anything in that conversation that there were no risks except for the one that Kate has been fearful of um that there were no risks and in waiting till fall as far as the relationship with the state and and or anything like that right right so um then we had a I had a conversation with me Jen ball and Alo had a conversation with Lisa me to try to understand again the
176process are we doing things correctly how would we do this um and she gave us some information about ways that we could options that we options for us to proceed as a board and then finally I had a phone call today with me uh Jen ball and um um Adam Schuster the town moderator because because of trying to understand how these complex situations work at town meeting so it's been a very busy week um to try to get all this information to understand the best ways forward our ways forward are one we don't close the public hearing we're in a public hearing right now for any kind of vote to happen we first would have to vote to close the public hearing we simply don't vote to to close the public hearing if the public
177hearing is not closed the warrant cannot go to town meeting the meeting is not done we're still talking about it we're still thinking about it we're still potentially changing it right it's not done the me the it just stays open the public hearing stays open till the fall or whenever we want to take it up again right option two um we would recommend we make a recommendation to table we we close the we close the public hearing and we make a recommendation to table this warant article um until fall town meeting right whenever ever whatever date that happens on that it will come forward at fall town meeting um option three is that we close the public hearing and we make no we make no recommendation and I believe that was also a matter of
178that the the town um so with that option the warrant goes goes through because you don't make a recommendation so this has already been submitted so it is voted on I I believe that um that town meeting because it is a um because it is a zoning article the town meeting can't can't take it up because the planning board has made no recommendation that's true so here the the the public hearing is within 21 days of town meeting and so therefore there has to be a recommendation made on town meeting floor by the planning board fourth option is that we vote to approve it as is and the fifth option would be to vote it down as is um that's the one option that I I won't say this that's that's certainly one option that
179would look very bad at the state level that we turn that we voted that we voted it down so um but if the public voted votes it down at the meeting what is the effect on with the state would they wait for maybe the fall and see if maybe in the fall he passes or no under which if um you mean if we approve it and the town votes it down yeah um yeah you can is the same you can take it up again at at fall you can re as long as the planning board as long as the planning board makes a positive Rec recommendation in the fall then it goes back then it goes back correct now is it how is it going to be seen I'll tell you right now it's probably
180not going to be seen in the yeah I can imagine bright Sunshine of light you know and and it's probably and uh but I don't think here's the thing I don't think that's the mo of the town right the mo of the town is to reach compliance right so I think U my personal opinion uh if you're asking is that um you know if a if a negative occurred I think it's I think it it would link ashon with a to a negative in it would put ashon yes in a negative light and that but that's not the light where that we're trying to that we that's not the position we're in right we're in a positive position and we're trying to make the best plan for the town I I have to say I'm
181struggling and the reason I'm struggling is the history of this project is one that is very complex and I'm talking about Main Street where there is multiple years of very close work between the applicant and I'm going to refer to the applicant that we have worked with um and the town relative to this site and obviously there's been continued Communications through this 40b process since January so I'm struggling because I understood the process to be the planning board and the select board work together we had a working group that created a draft for that entity to work together which we voted for and approved and it sounds like that entity kind of separate from the planning board select board vote already sort of has doubts about this work um What entity the the working group
182so I'm struggling because whatever I vote for there is no person who's ready to show up a town meeting next week and actually support what the planning board and select board voted for so I'm really struggling and I think I will have to abstain from this particular vote because frankly it's extremely contrary to the process that I thought we were going to follow which is planning board and select board came together in a collaborative process we asked for the working group to draft something for town meeting in the spring we voted excitingly for it and now we have a working group that no longer supports it without any vote from the select board and planning board that we are concerned well the the planning board obviously the the the planning board is the one that
183sends voting uh um zoning amendments through so we obviously we don't need the select board to to send anything through I think the thing is that that um what I would say is that we actually followed the process exactly the thing that we couldn't predict are the things that were outside of our control and so it's a matter of do you ignore those things and plow ahead anyway or do you want to step back and say hey I'd like to take a better look at it now that factors have changed you can feel however you want to feel about it that's why we'll no that's fine I think Rich has threatened 40b for a long time I don't think any of this is a surprise or a shock or some kind of O we didn't
184know this was going to happen until two weeks ago I think this has been discussed openly for quite some time um it's come up at planning board meetings that 40b is a threat the planning board in Prior discussions with the select board has heard arguments that it's the planning board's fault essentially that we were not flexible enough with this developer and so I don't view this as some sort of new data I view this as a jeopard jeopard of a process that was working really well so I will not be participating in this vote well does anyone else have a um I guess I guess it really depends on how you what what what I wanted to ask um Adam Schuster about was would we have the opportunity and here I'm talking basically about the
185working group to explain at town meeting why we took the turn that we did you know um and and he it he was figuring out how it fits within the structure of town meeting because that also has a structure but he understood why I was asking for that and he is willing to accommodate that so that it isn't just um nope we're moving on that there's a a brief explanation why there's not a discussion why but there's a brief explanation why um so that's kind of where we stand Deepa you've been The Quiet One on this is it because you're right in the middle kind of I'm torn between the two sides of this um and after she asked as well what happens if the town votes and it goes forward you still have an
186opportunity for fall to change gears um so I am torn a little bit between the two um I hear your side of it and what an I was been saying but I don't think I have a clear path on this for me is that the and and I don't know how big of a risk it is of the two projects we've already approved but the risk that even if we wanted to change things at town at fall town meeting the risk is still open until that change happens right the risk is still there it's not we get a pause on the risk until we actually decide what we want to do that the risk is still is that is there then for that amount of time so um yeah so I mean is this that
187you know this is just this is just where we at if there had been no yeah I've explained it enough times so again the the options are um the options are just not to close the public hearing we continue the public hearing until the first meeting in September or the last meeting in August or whatever we want to set set it for that's correct that's correct and then we would read advertise obviously and then obviously that also gives time time and for the planning office to recalculate and to to reali the model understand what's going on at 1060 Main Street at that point you know let that project take take a little bit of shape uh love the second 40b you know obviously we'll get more information on that and then also from the information
188I am collecting I think they're going to that I am confident there'll be some movement at the 501 pwn Street project and so I think you know if that'll limit if if if project if process there eliminates our concern building permits are pulled right then yeah you keep it in and you can keep you obviously you keep it in and you keep it at that density um and then you could look elsewhere you know within you know look elsewhere in town you know 10 to 60 the second fl0 be a project then you can reone from that point to see okay this is what we need to do and this is where we need to go and it could in what we theore do we is we're depressing the the pressures right off the two
189projects that right now do not have any building permits out and that's the ugc project and the 501 Street project we by the Fall you're not going to have a permit for 106 minut no you will not have a project for that but you'll know but it'll be it will be filed it will be filed with the zoning Bo of appeals I believe at that point they'll be public heer for that and then you could take that land area and you could build it in at a minimum of 15 units per acre by right then you're adding that into your density calculator what in turn you can do with that right those units that you're plugging into the calculator and is that you're depressing the number of units in the other developments right and so
190for the 501 Street project right right now we're right up at the 120 we could therefore say okay going to be by right at you know I think it's 23 units per acre so you can drop that down to 17 units per acre so you're reducing the risk that somebody comes in to try to rep permit that entire project to get away from the 25% affordability the math was not done so I'm getting throwing out now I'm just I'm I am taking I've run the numbers so many times Anna that I can I can calculate the numbers in my head okay but I but these are no numbers to to to set a moing on I I want to be very clear that we need to be open that we're not proposing 15% density we're
191opening up the room for a conversation about density 100% so in the middle of a negotiation because a 40b is technically a negotiation with a developer we letting the developer understand that hey we might give you high density by right so I just want to be clear and not naive I'm not going to pretend that we're going to get 15% there I mean 15 density we could technically get 30 through this process just remember that you would be part of people that would be voting for that I already voted we already had a vote where we already evaluated whether Main Street should have density I already voted I remember doing that with the select board and we decided not to include Main Street in this analysis okay so [Music] um yeah so so but there's
192really just two options whether we continue the I have five options here but not all of them some are kind of a distinction without a difference right it's either it goes to the spring or not that's a variation within those options that's what they do right yeah one or the other that's really the Crux um so I think that's the yeah uh I think you know where I said I don't want it to go in Spring I want to take the time I want to do a better job I want to get all the information I want to go and fall Anna sounds like she is going to abstain is I I I I'm I'm inclined to agree with you I think I think there's value on that so that's that's my position I I
193think that I will have to abstain because I feel like this the way that this could play out is just not seeming like good public process and I feel like that's going to um I think we could recover from that by the option of not closing the public hearing and setting a very detailed plan and check-ins and how this is going to go because I feel um we did take a boat with the select board and planning board to go forward and then I feel like my perception of the working group was to bring stuff back to the board not to make decisions so I feel like that a little bit happened and I'm not saying it's for bad reasons but that all matters to me and it matters to me how it's reflecting to
194the public so um the option of not closing the public hearing with very detailed check-ins plan not what I'm afraid could happen is we're still looking because I know it's a lot of work but there's nothing and now it's like oh it's um October and the first time people are hearing about it again and that that's that's what that would be my concern Kate I can promise you as a town planner that this is not going to sit on the back burner and we continue to work on this through the oh I understand it will be worked on what I my concern is communicating to the public and among ourselves and to ourselves along the way I I absolutely believe you'll be working out and I believe that people didn't stop which is why we're
195here I I do get that so so you're saying Kate that so if with the with the meeting open right uh if there is a um a consistent schedule of checking in on where the numbers are things so that everybody hears it yes and we're getting better prepared along the way I I could support Reon it's reasonable I can live with that too all right so but I what I'm just going to be clear I don't want to what what would not consider support to me is putting here but we never get to it like I so we I I would make if we're making some kind of motion it really has to be way way better than it's on our agendas we have to figure out how that's really really communicated and on the
196website and regular so I'm I'm understanding this right right the that process is uh uh by means of its effects um leaving the time for the process to get done or or is different I'm trying to distinguish between I'm not sure I understood the question no you said okay we said what one option is to say no it's going to go to the to the fall town meeting but that's what this alternative one of the five that Lisa gave you that's what this would be doing only with the caveat that Kate says that it would not be just oh we'll we'll pick it up right before that no obviously work's going to be being done not so you're worried about not closing the hearing looking like option five which is voting it down I'm trying
197to to to understand that this the the the the difference because I mean in in principle I already said it I I agree with you and and I think I I I like the opportunity to get the best option for the town is that equal to this the option of not closing the meeting Trisha the worry actually voting it down the worry that like that looking bad to the state is more about like we as the planning board have like refused to put a Warren article forward and also like are disagreeing with our own proposal essentially that we right I mean I think um the option one about leaving the public hearing open is from from Michael's view from Jen's View and from Lisa me's view was really saying we have something in process here
198we're just not done with it we get done with it in time we're working on it we're not we're not saying we don't want to do it and they did not cuz that was one of my concerns that was one of the reasons I wanted to meet with Michael and Jen is how does this look from the outside I don't want it to look bad because that's not what we're trying to do we're not trying to not do it we're trying to do it in the best way we can right so they um um both Lisa you know thought that number one is is the is the way that she would go is to leave the public hearing open and for the town moderator's perspective separately he said that that was the best option as
199well is to leave the public hearing open so that accomplishes that and what Kate just added was that that we have uh an overview of the process continuously correct I yeah I think that's the thing like like like I've been saying it's like I wish I could cross this off my to-do but instead we're having El run more numbers right we don't know what the results of those numbers are yet right we don't know I think and I think they're going to be changing over the months as we get more and more information yeah you know we have an option of changing something in the uh the whole um rail Transit District if you wanted to eliminate that 30% we have that option too well I mean if we're leaving it and that's if we
200are leaving it open I I want a plan and opportunity to revisit some other things as well that I I believe could be tightened up I I think that's exactly right I mean none of those things have come up in any of these meetings but that doesn't mean that they can't come up as we go forward right it it it opens up to it it opens back up again and like I said I'm well let me be clear I I was a supporter of it bring and I didn't bring it up but I am bringing it up now if this gets some way not at Springtown meeting I would like that Revisited what Revisited um the the rail Transit District thetion that's left open because it was like an overview way maybe not the best
201way of getting the best um for the town right it was it's something we'll have to look at just just know that as as I keep saying it's not as simple it's not as simple as everything we're describing because there's covenants on the property it's it's layers of stuff so that's why it's you know that's yeah so under the option where we don't close the public hearing the warrant doesn't go forward at town meeting but the moderator is willing to let you give an update to the public and then we also retain it on our agenda for regular updates between now and the fall that's right we would simply be making a motion to continue the public hearing until I guess we would say C what C CA da oh I skipped that one but
202we can make it sooner an end date yeah without an end date I think the biggest thing the public hear for this right with for the zoning regulations we're always going to have to republish it right to meet the criteria of passing a zoning bylaw in the fall right so I think that's going to have to happen from a from your standpoint Kate is you updates where we going to go you know I think you know if we can have a month right now we have to get through town meeting you know things are very busy here and if we had a month we could say yeah let's change the numbers let's work on it let's plug this stuff into the to the algorithm of the model and then yeah we could come back to
203the planning board and and give a report and say Yep this is where this could change in the future this is where this could change in the future and in a month we may have more data about the projects that are going on in town so I think that don't close the public hearing like a technicality now for everyone to um essentially save face in a positive way that we are still working and It ultimately though has to get closed because it won't be the same warrant so that that's a technicality but um it it's not like it's left open until the fall right right now we you know but I guess that's where I I'm the one that say I'm willing to entertain that but I want a really really solid plan or or
204I will be abstaining as well um but I can see how that option makes sense and could work when you when you say you'll be abstaining you mean tonight like I I can't write a solid plan in the next few minutes that we have right all I can say is that I am willing to and I'm sure Joe is as well I will speak I will speak for the I will speak for the working group saying that we'd be happy to have a solid plan about how to proceed you know I mean we we have our own plan that we make and our meetings and our investig mations but I think we're we're trying to do this transparently which is why I brought it up two weeks ago as soon as I knew something about
205it and our concerns I brought it up I was transparent about it right so um so yes I mean our ultimate goal is to make the best plan for the town I'm not trying to say what that is I'm just trying to say I don't know what it is right now and so so let's figure it out and the more voices we have in figuring it out I think the better I mean in terms of pro like in terms of having a solid process and not being able to do it tonight like just thinking about I don't think the process as the working group did it this last time was wrong I think it was so like if if we sort of mimicked it just with the new information and you know the working group
206it puts together runs the numbers puts together options comes to the meeting presents the options like I feel like if if that whole process is just like rerun in the next six seven months like that seems to be a way to like keep it you know we had it on the agenda we had it regularly like we were checking in on this topic because it was so important I feel like would that be just sort of saying that or agreeing that like we we would just handle it the way we did this round I that's helpful I I yes and no I mean I think uh I think we we hand handled it really well could we do better sure we can no I think that process was great that's what I'm saying like if
207we reiterate that but just with the additional information yeah yeah and obviously like I said public forums we want to you know um it's just that we're being yeah we're just being hit by a lot right now and I feel like I'm I'm I feel like we're being pressured to make it a a decision because of these external factors that we're being hit with you know and uh I'm not comfortable with that I can't say I'm doing my best job so so I think the question is when would we we'd be making a motion to continue the public hearing um and do we have to put a date on that like the first week at First do we put a date on it to the first meeting in September that was what people threw out
208September October November but maybe it would be better the first meeting in August or the I'm happy to say the first me in August I think that's a good point so it's even we start the formal process even earlier and in and in the meantime between may you know in May June July um you know we will be running the numbers and collecting more information and and and we can bring these back things back up to the planning board you know in in a proper time timetable but uh obviously with a with a with a with a fall to meeting probably scheduled late November um but sometimes it's early November sometimes it's early November tell you right now it's an early Thanksgiving it's going to be on the 22nd this year um no I'm sorry
209it's going to be late it's going to be on the 28 I lied um but uh yeah I think you know the first Mee in August is probably the best bet so so in Fall you will go back with option A that you have in your hand and poten repl is potentially with with 1060 m is that how you'll approach the fall meeting no I'm I mean unless I'm misunderstanding you I'm saying that I don't know what the option is yeah that's why so when you go back would you take it as two options to present to the community or would it no we can't do that you have warrant is a warrant you have to within a public process without within a forum that we open the public forum we had two of them
210for this for this process we could say yep these these is this is an option to go here to go this way we could present a different set of numbers and I think within that public forum is where we would D gather consensus you know the working group we had two public forums um and we had people at the forums right and and they supported this option and I think that was all done prior to the new information with the 40b proc with the 40 BS and so I think that's but we can take those options to a public forum once you hit the bylaw regul ation you're really kind of roll you need to roll with one option so what's stopping us from swapping 1060 main for the spring for this upcoming town meeting
211and seeing how the community reacts we can't do that the warrant the warrant's written yep written it's not advertised it's not discussed there that we can't we can't undo what happens if this gets rejected and fall then we're the same thing it would happen if something got rejected in Spring and it got rejected in fall like that could happen too would fail to meet the state deadline that's what would happen which would open us up for losing funding it's a risk that we should be aware of yeah and we can come back in the fall with the same plan that we have today you know we're not going to there's no gold there's no star out we're not going to get a star because we applied because we adopted a only bylaw today you know
212this bylaw works and I'm going to make sure that this bylaw does work at the state level to make sure that it does get approved so we do have an option to move forward within the fall so um I was waiting for Amanda to come back so she just doesn't I know she can't vote but just so that she can hear what's going on so just we need a motion to continue right now correct I think we' be looking for a motion to continue Community public hearing until the first the first planning board meeting in August thought I saw her coming she's coming back I said she's I just don't want to yeah have things happen while she's out of the room for 30 seconds okay I'll make a motion to continue the discussion the
213open hearing for the MBTA communities to the first uh plan board meeting in um August is there a second second and a roll call vote de I'm abstaining Marcel I Katherine Jersy I and Trisha Kendall I so we will continue this until August I yeah and we will continue the effort and based on that deep knowledge that we have now we can start looking even broader even deeper at different options to get us like I said so that when we're ready to go in front of town meeting it's not the option that was best two months ago it's the option that was best its best at that time the closest we can get to where we are in in the fall that's what so I I apologize I really I think I have to have
214a hard stop at 10:30 okay um then we have people here from the umal kind you understand I but I do apologize so so just real quick joa Friday will present uh in your packets you do have a presentation put together by Joan um it is six slides we don't need the slides if you want I can do it real quick if you have just be done uh Jim neelon uh sent over a map and this is the proposed local historical district not on the warrant for this town meeting no we're going to put that forward in the fall so I want Joan to go okay she's we're on for her for the spring meeting next week yeah I'm sorry I'll just briefly say a couple words after she's done came today I'll give you
215all a chance to look at it I'm happy again at a different time hopefully earlier in the evening when everybody's and then the third thing was the third thing was s by you Joan correct it was a gym this is a preliminary study report draft um and so I don't know if you'll get this tonight but obviously I printed up for everybody to take home and to Breeze through uh and when John's concluded I'll just give you a brief some what we're doing what that's okay okay microphone is yours John okay hello all please don't hold my previous comments against me so it's really good to see you all in person I'm Jon G FR wsha Road member of the Historical Society or historical commission sorry um we're hoping for your support of an update
216to the demo um delay bylaw hopefully you've had a chance to check to look at it in your packet but if you haven't um currently a person anticipating a sale of their property with a dwelling over 70 years old can just go through the process and wait out the delay there are two changes we're proposing first the property is sold and the new owner must go to the go through the process themselves second if 3 years go by with no approved plan the owner would need to go through the process again we've just basically added a sunset Clause the hope is that you can support these changes to encourage owners of historically significant properties to seek out options that will preserve ashlin's historical buildings that's really that's really all it is so if um if
217there are any questions I do have a quick one sure it's one that I I think I I made in the past so I I I get it so 70 years is being the threshold for any structure just for the town to potentially evaluate correct whether it's historic or not and it comes before the historic commission they and and they they do an evaluation and say yes it's significant or not no it's not significant correct okay I guess my question is um wouldn't be and I guess this is probably more broad but would would wouldn't be also necessary for the historical commission or with the help of others to to to create a list that is known of what is significant because it's it's um it's kind of spreading the net out without to see
218what you catch whereas if there's a determination there's a let's say there's a let's say that this is the historic like this but this is a survey and there's a list that the town knows uh very specific houses or buildings that have significance uh would would wouldn't that be the way to address it from a more specific point of view I Jim Neilson uh Ramblewood Drive we already have done extensive work on that it's called the macis list and these properties are listed with the state um it's part of its in the back of the fly that I put out that gives you the actual properties that are considered historical in the town as we inventory more they're added to the list and registered with the the state so what they're what they're how old
219they are what kind of intrinsic artistic value it has or any kind of architectural um style that kind of thing so the change is just to to extend the demolition delay all this yeah this is just for the demolition delay because what's been happening people have been getting the demo delays and they're just sitting there and nothing's happening I can name four properties in this area right by the town hall they got the delays they waited the 9ine months cuz now it's 12 months but back then it was nine and nothing's happened and so they don't have to go through the process anymore what we're proposing that if nothing happens in 3 years then they have to go through it all over again this is not something that's unique I mean a lot of other
220towns have this it's just something we should have put in when we amended the bylaw in the first place and didn't think of it until we saw this happen again what what what what is the incentive that you're seeking with that that that that you you make the owner have incentive the the owner is supposedly theoretically supposed to work with us to preserve the property in some way um if they don't we don't have a lot of teeth to do you know it's it's private property you there's only so many so many things we can do but this is a prevent um somebody just just filing this and and and like sitting on it for three years and when they eventually get around to developing it um they'll have to go through the process all
221over again you understand what I mean it gives a sunset Clause it's a sunset Clause I understand the process I'm just trying to understand the the objective and how the the the potential pitfalls okay it sounds like it gives it sounds like it gives gives a second chance for a property to be saved yes exactly you know versus a one-time deal like you did the demolition delay and now from now until the end of time you can take it down whenever you want but but but isn't that the process of evaluation of a demolition delay like Joan just said before or maybe it was Jim the the the the delay takes place there's an evaluation they go they work with you it's established okay this building is significant or not if that is if that
222the decision is made then why do you have to go back to do that all over again I mean it isn't that the point of the demolition delay in the first place well I think the demolition delay you know it it there's only a demolition delay when it's judged to be architecturally significant no it's by time right if you're 70 years old no no but they still cons right so whatever property is no matter how old it is it goes in front if if they decide it's it's not architecturally certificate added on to too many times falling down exactly economically in feasible to to to fix it up had that happen we we don't vote on it that just goes and they go their merry away yeah then there's no delay no they can go
223on demolish it because you you confirm that it's not okay that's the process Hoffman 58 uh I guess the the idea is that we have people who are gaming gaming the law that is they're making they're taking advantage of the lack of a sun said Clause to wait out the process and this would put some kind of a limit on that yeah maybe maybe I said big maybe incentive to work with the town the commission to try to preserve some of it or parts of it or you know there's no there's no incentive to do anything they're supposed to follow all these um you know procedures and possibly move it all this other stuff which almost never happens because of financial reasons for yeah you know but but we have no no teeth to do
224anything as far as you know enforcing anything so this is just one one tool that we think uh will help the town and hold preserve some of these properties and the hope is that that someone someone comes before us they have the they do the demo delay it runs out in a year they still haven't sold the property but then they sell it a year and a half later and they sell it to someone who would prefer who would like to preserve it who who act and they come before the they come before the historical commission and we say yes you know we'll work with you and we try to help them to find the right help to get it preserved and I think the other the other thing is that um if it if
225they just run out um over time they have to come back and I think that's the as they said if it's property sold the new owner has to come right do it again yeah and the new owner hopefully will want to do something and that's you know and we'll work with them and I think the the heart well or not but I think that the hope is that um either we help the person who is trying to sell their property find a person who wants to buy it to preserve it or we help them to figure out how to preserve it themselves and we're trying to give that a second option was it just a second or that's in perpetuity does it renew time again or just one time for the same honor it's just
226one time I think I believe that's the way it's written it but if it changes hands if it changes hands clock starts restarts yeah yeah okay correct yeah okay okay and I'll just say um while I'm standing here um what this is is um we've hired a consultant a professional are you done I don't know oh I'm sorry oh you're sorry does anyone else okay any have any questions anyone have any questions question I question about this but when you get to it okay all right okay go ahead sorry just I'll be brief um because it's late um like again I'm Jim neelon I'm the chair of the historical commission and um when I first we first Recon uh cons configured the commission again back in 2019 um I was on the uh original board
227um and you know we have no histo we have nice signs on either end of of Main Street saying welcome to Historic ashin and those are just signs they don't signify anything someone just put them there um we do not have a local historic district and I was looking around with all these demo delays going on the only thing that preserves these local houses the the historic places like the town hall right here is not even the national register of of historic buildings it's a local historic district because that is the only only way that they're saved by the state in you know forever um there's a lot that goes into this um I I want I would like every I'd like to come back when we have more time so I I could take
228all your questions about what this actually entails but just briefly the map I'll give you the outline of what we're proposing will go from the Historical Society the ocean house across the street to the mill buildings yes I know it's all the mill buildings it's got to be contiguous that's the whole point of this it's a district that's contiguous uh the mill buildings whether they preserve some of the Granite structures or not that's still there um down the church the buildings next to the church around the corner down to a library next to uh Erica stopping there going back around um up Street to left on Main Street to Homer AV to the old train station across the street to the brick buildings so are still going to remain uh then we go up to
229the Post office then along Main Street back towards the ocean house to The Corner Spot here we're not including the buildings on with a bagel table is not like that because that's all been redone that's all new construction um now not everything in this district is going to be historical that's the first question I get like the the cleaners for example or the liquor store um but they're placeholders so if anybody wants to come in there someday and put if it's in the district they'll have to conform to what the district bylaws are and this would be a set of bylaws as a separate commission from the historical commission it's a local historic commission District commission and it'll have like bylaws and guidelines of what they can do to the outside really only allowed to
230deal with the outside structure of the structure what they do with it usage Interiors none of our business it's what you can see from the street as long as it's to preserve the character of what's left of downtown ashin you know so that's and other thing like what happened on the corner here doesn't happen in the down we and the reason we picked downtown first I mean Ash's got a lot of historic houses but they're spread out all over the place and we have to go through we get two-thirds of the town uh meeting vote and some some places like Somerville they'll do individual buildings um as a historic district because they can because they're a city council and it's a lot easier to get the thing past um here because everything's so spread out
231we figured that it would be easier um and there's also less residences in the downtown um because we're not about take we're not into taking anybody's property rights away or anything like that it's just simply the facade and the things that would be put into the um the bylaws there's some examples in here to be voted on but uh we wouldn't be concerned with like paint color or uh you know or air conditioners or siding siding or any of that stuff as long as it conforms why not why because uh a lot of that stuff is can be up to the individual we don't have like sturb Village out here it's already a hodgepodge of different styles and different colors and someone said at the meeting once uh well we don't want somebody to paint
232their house purple well we already have a purple house in the in the district and I she doesn't have to change it she'd be grandfathered in but that's that's kind of where we're going with that I I personally uh we don't like we don't have the prettiest downtown but it's worth preserving what we do have um as far as in some of these structures the histories are in here too are very historic and have been here since I mean the town hall is the oldest building in town I believe uh that's still used as a municipal building uh there's a few houses that are older but uh the church we don't know what's you know whatever is going to happen down the line then the uh the new owners or present owners will have to
233conform to that so I have two question go ahead go ahead um my question is just I was looking at this list and I was curious like 949 Homer for example yeah you listed that as contemporary style is there a reason like one or two properties in this list fall in that style as a contemporary style and why would you consider that theoric property the pre the preservation is she does this for a living her name is Stacy spies and she's from Hoppington but she does this all over the country that's the the uh the uh the name that she put on it because it's not not like I said not everything's going to be quote unquote historic contemporary style or different yeah go the terminology is contributing or non-contributing elements that's the language that
234the mass historical commission uses yeah and so that would be an example of a non-contributing yeah and therefore would not be subject to the regulations of the local historical district commission 9 to1 would be is I believe that's the brick building but that's the old eert drugstore and that's that's that's as is and that qualifies on its own as its own yeah style whereas you know which is completely different from the town hall or the house at the Ocean House Down The End of the Road there you know the different style so it's not going to conform to anyone's style and this does not also say that you have to preserve the facade as is but you have to try to preserve the facade is is what can be seen from the street okay so
235the for example if they wanted to put something in the back where you can't see it that's that's out of the district's purview um if it's already there it's out of the districts per of you but only if it's contributing as long as it's yeah yeah you wouldn't do it with the dry cleaners no no no but if the dry cleaner goes away and somebody wants to put something there it would have to conform to the district okay they couldn't put a a you know five three-story apartment building right there yeah not that they would but you know I don't think they have space but if they took the liquor store in that who knows you know so uh this will be out for public hearings the next part we are going to submit we
236got a vote on this and we will be submitting it to the state Mass historical commission for their feedback and eventually there's a whole process it gets approved by the Attorney General's office and eventually once it's all approved and voted on a time um at town meeting uh it'll be registered in the registry of deeds it'll be attached to every property here as part of the part of the property every contributing element property yeah yeah yeah so I just two questions I I in principle I agree that this is the right area to do it downtown I'm not sure about the the the details of what you just said um because I agree we don't have the preious downtown or or or or structures that are it's a m with some exceptions yeah that are
237like really um that significant um so so I I guess the IDE it would be ideal that that the the change incentivizes to to change what is not contributing not significant to become uh something that that is harmonious with that but my question to me it's just jarring to see the geometry of these district and I want to know what what what is the why you get to here and take take a turn if if we have a district my sense of a historic district would be like or the downtown if you will would be to have a recognizable boundary that you say okay you're entering like the sign uh and from all sides when you go in all these different directions it seems just theography that's topography the assessor Lots no it's not because
238in some some Lots you get to the middle of the lot and then you turn the corner and don't I don't know if that's complet I don't know if that's completely accurate like on this one for example yeah which one this is the topography here and and and by Homer renue is the same but then you turn the corner just include this one but not that one and and that goes all over the place the's say behind the library well that road is the one they the the library and next to the library Erica's no behind because that's included right we're not going behind the library that's just that's just included as see my point yeah like like here you go like that and maybe not this peninsula but the topography around here is the
239same but you go like that even but isn't it about looking at isn't it about looking at the street facade and not the plan I know it looks it looks kind of yucky on the plan right but it's about looking at where you're trying to protect the street facade right I think that's one of the considerations cuz the plan doesn't matter you know or but does it because I'm seeing that the the street I I agree that that there's the value of of of a pedestrian scale or textures materiality that's all important no doubt but but the the especially the I mean this town has an industrial birth right and and and is more like the the district itself yeah the the street and the facades are important but it's more of like like the
240experience of what is the historic district if if if if I can recognize it if I if I can if I can walk around and say okay they St District there's a boundary but but it's not like that and I get I mean I think it's just a because this isn't coming up obviously next week no this is so so it's just a point taken can I me just make one one comment to that because so Stacy spies said something to us that made a lot of sense and maybe this will help you to to picture it if you the the intent of an historic district is to be able to stand in the middle if you put yourself in the middle of the road in the middle of that district and you looked around
241that those are the historical buildings not so much the back of the building and the back of that you know it's not the it's not the the squares of the of the plots it's the the side of the whole downtown I also think we have to be careful because a lot of what's not in it is private residential versus what's in is actually quite it's more likely to be commercial and publicly owned that was exactly the point also that that is that was exactly the point we didn't want to include too many residential uh houses in this one because I mean they're other candidates for a neighborhood that could be but then you run into everybody you know worrying about taking their property what they can and can't do with their land however this is
242why we wanted to do downtown the commercial area and the public buildings first so that people could see that it's not the end of the world kind of thing and we've done it I mean yeah I think this is more likely to fly that H me relative to that I I have to say there's streets in Ashland like I that are like historic is obviously uper a definition and this is based on the state the state thing which I appreciate because it's kind of subjective otherwise so I like that I like the fact that there is like a state piece to it this is a state uh project we have to get approve from the state um and this is I mean I I've been to a couple different seminars run by uh the mass
243historical Commission on getting this going yeah I think we should we should just realize it's not people have tried to do this for years in Ashlin and it just gets stalled at one point or another we had a lot of stuff inventor back in 2010 which you can you can see online and some of that's Incorporated in here but we had about about seven or eight other properties added to that which went into what I spoke earlier of the macas list which is the the master list of historical properties in the state the one thing I was going to suggest is when you and I haven't read this entire thing but you may want to my understanding is that when you get State recognition there could be grants and other things that are available to
244us I would put that front and center like page one because that's a massively related to Economic Development yep um so like well this kind of dub tails in with a comprehensive plan the downtown revitalization the whole thing um I I think the timing is kind of ctitious so it's serendipitous thank you Kurt the I was looking for it's too late for me to speak to me it's important to underline it's not like a random thing it's actually State based state has to approve no no this is state approved y yeah so I'll I'll be happy to come back um we're going to be doing a couple of forums we'll be at the farmers market uh we'll be at Ashland day hopefully it doesn't get rained out this year I've got a big blown up
245map of that that little map there that Peter helped me make a while ago that uh you know for for educational purposes and one other thing we've done a we're in the process of doing like a fold out a walking tour of that area with QR codes so we're going to put those at the Town Hall the library blah blah blah people can take it out and give to give themselves a SE self-directed tour of a lot of these properties when you just put the co you know the phone on the code give you the whole macros listing will come up in the history of the building and all that stuff so that's almost done do you need anything else from us I just have one last thing and that is if I don't okay
246thank you I'm like to take them please feel free we are having restoring I would say next time when you need to come and talk about this remind us how that you were patient and waited and demand to be put on first thank you no one does can I ask one question about this like if there's some consensus that the planning board likes this concept I think it might help us as we comment on the 40b I don't think I don't think we should jump into a vote for something not a vote okay but that's fine we can yeah I mean yeah so I will be I will be looking at some point U with with this application from letters of approval from the select board and from the planning board so if if you
247agree that I at some point down the line I'll be in touch have more meetings yeah yeah yeah I'll come back and we can uh talk about that time okay okay because they do want to see the the state wants to see that the town is kind of behind this sure you know you want to have a yes vote before you yeah okay app thank you the only other thing is our on our agenda is the specialized code just just right now I I would personally recommend that we just don't take a vote on it we don't have to right we obviously have different opinions they haven't asked us to take a vote yeah we obviously are in different places we can discuss it more if we want but if we're going to take a
248vote obviously this is the only time we had before town meeting and I'm just throwing that out there I'm happy not to take a vote on it we we're not obligated to it's 10:40 you guys you guys know how I feel about it so of feels that way but just not no I I mean I I don't know I don't think it'll it's it's not going to be a unanimous voice a unanimous vote you want take aot right now but I'm I'm fine again I'm looking for I don't feel like we need to if if you three feel like we need to then we'll take a vote sorry what are we voting for potentially specialized code if we're going to offer the planning board support of the specialized code it's not a zoning Amendment we
249don't have to do anything we could speak individually if we want at town meeting I think if we're not required to do it at this hour I would not do a vote just for the sake of a vote I I agree I just want to make sure we're not going to say that we didn't support it by not voting like we're just completely silent and we're up to individual citizens is that correct that's that's my belief yeah the board is not we're not going to gu well I don't I I don't think that well I don't want I that was the question I don't think we should be presenting any position from the board not agnostic not yes not no what is agnostic no faith I would I would I would say that the V
250you know if asked which I don't have to say anything at town meeting I would just say that the planning board did not take a vote we you know we we had we had discussed it at various times over various meetings but we didn't take a vote so and I would email Ash just to piggyback on that just to say hey Ash just to give your heads up the Plenty board did not vote and we are not making a motion to go one way or the other just so as doesn't present at town meeting that the py board voted to support and to not support I don't think he would do that but I would just be clear that we would not want him to portray that the pl board voted to support indor voted
251to not sort so but if someone feels strongly that we should vote then I mean honestly almost 11 o'clock at night I think the messaging should be the planning board did not have sufficient time to discuss and vote this we're sorry like that's the proper message we're not required to take a vote everything we can speak individually as individuals and not as the planning board if we did so wish at the at town meeting right yeah get out of here see you later have a good evening have a good evening all right morning I think I think that is actually the end of our agenda unless I mean I have public comment Mark you spoke once are you good with that yes thank you make a motion to adjourn at 10:43 p.m. second vote Anna
252tuski I Amanda I and Trisha Kendall I all right thank you Mackie just for clarification the meeting on Tuesday everybody wants it to be