Select Board Meeting 2/21/2024

001good evening everyone and welcome to the Ashlin select board meeting of February 21st 2024 uh we will begin with um I just want to note that one of our colleague colleagues Joe manani is not with us tonight but we do have a quorum of four members so we will be continuing um the first item on the agenda is uh citizens participation I just want to note that we do have uh an uh an agenda item for 710 so we'll try to if everyone will keep keep your comments within that so how many people here are for Citizens part so I think I have three any anyone on line see I don't see any hands raised all right remotely so each each have about three minutes so go ahead Joel three minutes oh boy okay uh

002first just a quick comment then I had a lot more to say about it but the uh and I appreciate very much that you're going to be addressing what happened at the planning board meeting of February 8th uh I was at that meeting and for those who haven't seen what happened you can hear about it to have been there it was truly a shocking just absolutely shocking what happened so the board will provide more details about that and I do want to I do want to um just clarify for people it is on that incident or is on the our agenda so we will be discussing it I will um allow citizens uh residents of ashin to speak on this at that time if you want to hang around for that uh but um but

003don't feel like you have to go ahead I hope that the board as it deliberates about the events that occurred realizes that people who chair Zoom meetings online we are not trained I don't know when it's okay to kick somebody out of a meeting for conduct or what to do I don't even know how to use zoom really I can mute somebody but I really don't know how to mute 20 people attacking the meeting I would encourage you to look at that and see if we we could get better training or guidance in in what to do cuz we have no idea now that is all I'm going to say given the limited time here Jo that's uh however that was the one of two incidents that occurred that night and I'm addressing the second

004one now and I was very unhappy with what occurred I went to that meeting uh representing the upper Charles Trail committee we have one of our members here and wanted to focus on public safety uh the project that was under consideration by the planning board was a large housing project on Homer ra and the trail that we have planned and have had the route that we have had in place for a very long time goes right on home arav we did that to bring business and commerce to the downtown and I got into a an argument really it was very unpleasant it was polite but uh I was told by the planning board spefic specifically one or two members that the trail they really didn't want to discuss the trail and I pleaded with them

005again this had happened at a previous meeting to uh only ask their traffic consultant to have an awareness of the trail such that safety could at least be considered there might not be any safety issue but at least they could have had professional feedback on the implications and I was told that the trail is aspirational that's the word they used we don't have anything in front of us it doesn't exist and it's we are not going to plan for something that does not exist and I started to say I thought the idea of planning was to consider reasonable intended uses that may not have occurred yet planning you know the future the unknown and I was muted I sent all of you today an article I hope some have had a chance to read it

006my I'm not a lawyer so I could be way off base here I you know it's for you to interpret but the the Massachusetts Supreme Court bent over backwards to say you can't do that kind of stuff you know there is Free Speech when a resident comes up to speak they're not to be muted even if you even if they are criticizing you even if in in the case in Southboro the the resident called one of the board members a Hitler likee person or or words to that effect I me called him Hitler and my point is that when you consider uh what what we should be taught as chairs running meetings we need to understand what is a what is legal speech even if it's not appreciated speech and what is not those are

007all my comments thank you so and yeah so we should just keep that in mind um you know maybe you could have a discussion with Peter about the planning board dealing with the upper Charles Trail and those kind of issues all right thank you Joel yeah we are just going by time limits here so limit go ahead uh Mar will be three minutes got three subjects three minutes one one subject is is I saw sh5 news earlier tonight that nian is going to be looked at again for the final twoyear study yes or no so Mark I haven't I haven't watched the segment but my understanding is that they referenced the the $2 million that the EPA is putting forward to finish basically the ground extraction system that they that they currently have in place

008basically supercharge that so I don't know if they're looking at it again just fully implementing what they call the final remedy for for the um yeah I did see it and that's what they were referencing is the Final Phase okay okay and another thing would be um you you was talking about in the board before we came on there the comprehensive plan has it meeting in the Box on Sunday can that be explained and how many people can go so Market's it's open to anybody who wants to attend so a meeting in a box is is really a focus group that's probably Jen and I have uh we we talk about this often uh what to call it so a focus group it's really more of a focus group and we have you know basically

009a set of questions that we ask the people that are in attendance so if we have a large group we'll split up into smaller groups so everybody has an opportunity to provide input and um yeah that's basically the gist of it and it's at the community center at the community center correct from one to three that's s on your um your site yeah and the last thing would be the the plan board zoom boom I'm going to wait to for my comments on that but then again you gave me three minutes so I'll wait to when it comes up okay thanks Mark right CeCe I believe CeCe is the last uh speaker for public participation right okay thank you thank you and good evening I want to extend my appreciation for my offer to take

010home for each of you the radio frequency radiation meter I hope that you each got to have a turn with that over the last two weeks and just really gather data on what our children and our families are exposed to given today's radio frequency radiation exposures what I brought for you tonight is a copy of the New Hampshire 5G commission report New Hampshire is the first in the country to pass a law to investigate the health and environmental impacts of today's 5G technology once they got started on their investigation they realized it's not just 5G it's it's everything Wireless from our laptops to our cell phones to our wearables and everything beyond that the utility Smart Meters as well that they're putting on our homes so I paid 50 bucks to print each one of

011these so I'd like to loan them to you for the next two weeks and ask that you at least skim through the first 17 pages of their executive summary and findings now this was not just a willy-nilly commission these are highly trained professionals we had medical doctors we had Engineers we had World leading scientists in electromagnetic radiation and these are top-of-the-line people who were in a position to assess the body of science that our federal agencies have failed to do they have defunded all of the good programs that we had at the federal level when the 1996 Telecom Act was passed that favors industry over public health so I hope you'll take a good solid look at this New Hampshire commission report one of the recommendations among the 15 that they make and they are

012not weighted in any way all 15 are very important one of them is to get the wireless radiation out of our schools because children are especially vulnerable and what got me on this path with with you guys again is when I went to the open house at our beautiful new Mendes school and there were no children with all their devices in the building but what we have done sadly is we put a wireless access point the Ruckus on the ceiling of every classroom and in the hallways and when I measured it was Skyhigh in the red zone and that's what we're exposing our children to every day so I'm asking once again that you continue to do your investigation on this issue I hope the resources that I'm providing you are looked at first of

013all don't take anybody's word on this do your own independent investigation and just today I was given a new report that came out um applying the precautionary principle to wireless technology we should have never let this come into our living spaces this is put out by Dr Paul Ben isai who's a physicist at the aerial University in Israel Dr halel Baldwin who's a neurosurgeon and he was the co-chair of the EMF medical conference which I was asked to present on for state and local policy Dr Linda burnam who's now the retired director of the US National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and it goes on these are top level experts and I sent this to you this afternoon so I was going to ask this is different than yeah this report okay some of some

014of the same people Dr Kent Chamberlain has now retired from UN in their Department of electrical and computer engineering he thought it would be a slam dunk to sit on this Commission of course Wi-Fi is fine he worked in it for 30 years and then he got a hold of the science and he's done a 180 so we anything anything else on this the only thing I would say is you should go to the Board of Health and present this I think I I've been presenting for years Brandy and Ashlin has done um some really remarkable inroads to help us be the first in the country to even have a little sign hanging in our classrooms with precautionary measures we're the first in the country to put this on loan but you guys are the

015ones who set the rules in our town you guys are the ones who can change our zoning code so we will stop putting close range micro W radiation on our homes and cell towers near our homes and I don't know if you guys saw there was a press release from uh the Mass state board of Ethics that the DPW manager in Franklin has just gotten into some hot water because Yolanda is not in her head when the industry came in and talked our towns into putting these smart water meters on our homes they did some pretty unethical things and so now there's some hot water coming out of that um so I have asked Michael and I have asked the DPW to show me where in the state law it says we are required to

016put these smart meters on our homes because I think the industry pulled a fast one on us so those thank you CC thank you all right so that that concludes citizens participation so we'll go in the first item on the agenda which is um I have here Hank Rous uh Habitat Humanity discuss 47 Main Street proposal and who do I have uh on this one if you could either unmute yourself or raise your hands so I think Steve Greenberg is there and some other folks maybe so is this a presentation uh do you want to just introduce yourself um and I think Dave Rosen Bloom is here from the affordable housing trust as well all right so why don't you go ahead and um um we have a we just want to remind we have

017a public hearing at 7:30 so you have about 20 minutes for this in discussion so go ahead put that in mind so thank you all right thank you I'm Debbie maruka H I'm the executive director of Habitat for Humanity thank you very much for having us tonight um Steve do you or Dave want to say anything by way of introduction or would you like me to jump right into presentation please Jump Right In David wants to say something all right um so I don't know if I have the ability to share the presentation her sharing and I think the board did get this right is this the same thing that you sent us correct yeah okay very good okay um so yeah you should be all set to share now oh wonderful all right is

018that working that looks like it's working see it great okay great um so I have a brief overview of habitat and then um the primary point of the discussion tonight is to share the details of the project that uh we would like to pursue at 47 Main Street and to request the select board's support for that project so Habitat for Humanity our mission is to build homes community and hope we do this in um cities and towns um our affiliate covers 42 cities and towns in uh South Central Massachusetts and we specifically seek to um to do these buildings in towns that are requesting us to join them and to partner with them our vision is to uh is a world where everyone has a decent place to live and we build our homes through

019volunteer labor um and donations as well as subcontracted um projects and site supervision with our construction supervisors our primary programs are home builds veteran builds um our operation Playhouse program we also do home repairs have neighborhood revitalization and a brush with kindness as well as operating a restore which you probably know um there is one on pwn Street in Ashland um that is uh growing every day so the details of 487 Main Street um this is where it is um you know located on the on the site plan map um habitat has made an offer to purchase this property from the current homeowner and that offer has been accepted the purchase and sale is contingent on a building permit um moving forward habitat's next step is to complete um and to direct the 40b process

020through um the executive office of Housing and livable communities with the state uh and we would navigate you know the U 40b application as well as regulatory agreement and um uh you know right through to the deed at the end of the process um our build schedule we would begin construction within 30 days of receiving a permit weather dependent um and and construction completion would be estimated to be done within 15 months the details of the process with the 40b application is that we do need a letter of support from uh the town manager and a letter of support from the Housing Trust we have already met with the the Housing Trust and um believe that we have their support for this project um we would also request a town funding commitment that's a requirement

021for uh 40b application um and then some details about the overview of the any master plan or affordable housing plan that may be in place um in town habitat would then complete the housing plan the budget the lottery um and the schedule and communicate with the um with housing and livable communities and they would then commission an appraisal um once the application is accepted then we would be given the um permission to move forward uh for a comprehensive permit and then all the building permits Etc would follow from that habitat would identify prospective homeowners and conduct a lottery process as required by the state um for the homeowner to move into this home um and simultaneously be fundraising for the project who then complete the construction convey the property to the homeowner through a third

022party mortgage um and that mortgage would include a deed Rider which would maintain the home um as an affordable unit in perpetuity I realize I jumped ahead and probably should have pointed out this would be for a single family home our sales model is that the um eligible buyers to work with habitat are make between 30 and 60% of the area in median income and are required to be a firsttime home buyer as defined by the state um their financial qualifications do need to be approved by the executive office of Housing and livable communities um there is typically a requirement for somewhere between 3 and 5% of a down payment um and that varies depending on the bank that we are working with for the um for the closing the family conducts Sweat Equity with

023habitat meaning that they work for 300 hours through a combination of um education firsttime home buyer classes um other Financial education and then work on the home itself um and other partnership opportunities within habitat um the family is selected as I mentioned through a lottery um and we will have we will write um an execute a fair housing market plan that hlc does need to approve before we can begin marketing the property um and the maximum sale price estimate for the home is $280,000 that is based on um the current area meeting income um that is you that's in place right now however in March or April the new numbers will come out from HUD so that's an estimate because that will be updated when those new numbers are released great for our funding model

024the construction cost we estimate for this project will be between $475 to $550,000 the mortgage sale the net that habitat would receive at the end of the mortgage sale would be somewhere between 200 and 250,000 that's once we take out the um the expenses of the closing um and also uh recognizing that the majority of our homeowner applicants do not make enough to um sell the price at the maximum um and habitat's mortgage amount is actually based on the income of the family that gets selected through the lottery so we back into the price of the home we don't set the the house price up front and then require applicants to meet that price we will do um fundraising through corporate grants and um in kind fundraising and then again we do request a municipal

025sub subsidy through uh CPA funds in the range of$ 120 to $170,000 for this property a recent example that um we just completed Ed is uh 226 Cedar Street and Sturbridge um the town of Sturbridge actually donated that lot it was Town owned land um their CPA funds were allocated to cover 50% of the project costs and we um we built three-bedroom one and a half bath 1500 foot home there it did have a septic and well um because that site did not have sewer and water run to it here are some images of some of the recent homes that we've built so um this one on the left is that home that we've recently completed in Sturbridge the ones in the middle are essentially this house plan um joined together into three town homes

026um and this site is in Worcester and then this one is a um renovation that we recently completed uh in Holliston that one's on on concrete Street in hollist we just finished that um home owner actually just closed a week or so ago so big celebration for us so the summary of where we stand right now is that the property is currently under agreement with the owner um we did uh advertise and hold an autter meeting um on the week of January 29th um we are here tonight to request support from the select board um if we receive that report moving forward we would request the letters of Municipal support um in the next month and then through March and April um habitat will work to um finalize the rest of that 4V application and

027keep the process moving forward okay thank you for that presentation do um do um Dave or uh do you guys have anything to add to that presentation I have some questions but I'll comment if that's okay um we've met with habitat many times over the years and most recently um this project came up and um want to thank uh David Rosen Blum for uh helping put in this together and uh we've met with the owners and uh it seems like a very good project habitat's a wellestablished nonprofit and I think uh this type of development would be an asset to the town yeah um thank you Steve so my question is I thought that the trust was contributing the funds uh Deb said the CPC what what's the situation with the town funds well um

028I think that's to be determined um you know we have to uh see where we are when this thing is uh finalized uh terms and conditions but you know I think it would either be directly from the trust if all goes well uh Andor um approve the town meeting through CPC funds still CPC funds okay questions or thoughts on from the board uh sure I have I have a couple of questions here um you know one question is in terms of uh who might be eligible so the the are is any sort of priority given to town employees no so the um when we build a single home at a at a site there is no local preference that is allowed through the office of uh housing liable communities um it has to be a

029a lottery where all eligible applicants um have equal waiting okay I think that we several years ago we it wasn't a um habitats for Humanity but um the the land off of um Raymond marquetti that looped there those homes um they were built uh for low-income housing and and there was they were able in that case to to offer I think um priority to town employees um and then I wondered about your Butter's meeting on January 29th and and how that had gone um so that was a relatively quiet meeting um we had uh members of the Housing Trust and one of the members of the select board Joe was there and the um current owner of the property attended but no other Butters attended thank you Brandy or you um so thank you for

030the presentation um I know that our affordable housing trust has been working hard to try to bring a habitat project to Ashland I think that I've I've been on uh on site at habitat builds and it's it's a it's a great project to be a part of um so you know personally I'm I'm excited to see a habitat house come to Ashlin um I was curious about the the current um owner of 487 Main Street and sort of how how that works if the property is a is privately owned how that gets worked out with habitat I'm I'm just curious based on you know knowing that this is going to be kind of offered up as a lower income um house for a family so the way that it works is habitat has made an

031offer to the current owner to purchase it um and the owner has accepted that offer um pending habitat being receiving a building permit um once we receive the the building permit we would um go through the the purchase and sale process and close on the property and then the deed would be um in habitat's name during construction um and then final disposition of the property is you know then um to Habitat to meet uh housing livable communities requirements um for affordable housing but I did have a conversation a very transparent conversation with the current owner who is um in support of it being a habitat property um there's just no concerns about that at all okay great um and then just one other quick question um assuming this would need to go to town meeting

032for for um CPA fund approval from a timing perspective if it's a 15mon um construction process is that from when the 40b application is filed in April or is that sort of the like what what would be the timing from actual like in your estimation when would construction actually be feasible and how does that kind of fit into the to sort of the CPA funding process that makes sense it does it does um and I I have may may have misspoken about where the um whether the funding was housing trust funds or CPA funds and I apologize for that um if it did need to go for um C to CPA for approval um you know habitat's 15 months um construction begins at um receipt of uh the building permit um so that's just the

033the average time that it takes for Habitat to build a single family home with volunteer labor okay all right so so and and the 40b process would take a certain amount of time as well assuming it does yes yeah it does extend the the time frame there's a comment period of 30 days that can't be changed and the um the marketing plan also has some time in it that uh that is mandatory by Al hlc okay all right thank you very much Yolanda yeah I want to thank you for coming I know as Brandy said that we've been trying to work with habitat so it's nice to see that this project is moving forward or potentially moving forward here in Ashland there was no details on the type of I mean other than a single

034family home does the design get determined further in the process or when does that happen so the the images in the presentation um are especially that Sturbridge um image is um habitat sort of standard plan um so we have built that that same house type um a number of times now and we have three different fronts that we can put on it um you know so that that um review you know goes goes through obviously the um you know building permit process but we do try to match Styles in the neighborhood so that the home Blends well okay good yeah I I too have done a build and I I think this is a great pro pro program so um I hope we can help you move this forward here in Ashland if it needs

035to come here I have construction volunteers on the on the board so that's great oh yeah definitely we can we can do something um in regards to timing I guess the affordable housing trust still needs to decide where the funding is if it's going to come from the trust or from current CPA funds I guess that has to happen um if you need to go to town meeting are you looking for spring town meeting or potentially fall town meeting Steve or David yeah oh I'm sorry if I may go ahead thank you Yolanda uh the trust has the funds um in an account to cover this if need be okay so um you know it's not going to be a last minute type of approach but um if if possible we'd go to town meeting

036if it makes sense to ask for funds uh replacement funds or additional funds but as I mentioned the C the um the affordable housing trust has the capital to cover it might be the kind of thing where you move forward with it now and then ask for replenishment funds at a different town meeting well I was a friend used to say probably maybe definitely we'll get back okay so uh what do you need from us tonight to move this forward or what what do you require um so it would be very helpful to have a vote of support from the select board um for this project to move forward I move that we support the Habitat for Humanity house that is being planned and presented for 487 Main Street and I'll second that okay the

037motion to support like U has been made uh this project has been made and seconded all those in favor say i i i a motion passes four uh 4 Z so congratulations thank you for coming forward to do this um and hopefully it'll go smoth smoothly so thank you and congratulations to the affordable housing I know you the the committee has been working to try and work with habitat for a while so to everyone involved in making this happen thank you for doing that absolutely and now you can start with the sibson property so there you go all right thank you thank you very much all right so the next item on the agenda is uh minutes late it's been uh uh uh this is a notice of violation hearing to include but not Li

038mited to noise occupancy and parking ashin Memorial Association Incorporated VFW 311 uh Pleasant Street and um I'm just going to read the um uh the the the purpose of the hearing um and I um before I get into that I'll just um just maybe make the members aware that we've had a proposal to open um to start this hearing and then to uh to take testimony and facts and then and potentially suspend it until our either next meeting so that Joe manani will be here for that so that's kind of the thought so keep that in mind as we go through this that we'll be uh deciding that be and just want to make everybody aware that that um we may not have a a conclusion to this hearing tonight okay um although the idea

039is that we're going to gather all the facts and information so people won't have to necessarily come back and spend a lot of time as we conclude this okay so thank you for bearing with us on that so the purpose of this hearing on February 16th 20124 uh notice was provided to Fred auton bar manager Richard Smith president of BFW and Kim wallbridge owner operator of marone's company pursuant to General Law chapter 138 section 64 and section 3-2 of the town of ashon Charter the subject to be to be discussed is whether the VFW violated the provisions of 204 CMR 2.52 and our section 4 D6 of the town's regulations governing alcohol licenses by permitting any disorder disturbance violation of noise ordinance exceeding the building capacity illegal parking block erress and consumption of alcohol brought

040onto the licensed president pres premises by patrons whether or not there was a crowd manager on duty during the event and if the crowd manager completed the building safety checklist fp-25 the incident in question occurred at about 2224 hours on February 9th which I think is what 1024 uh 2024 all the facts are more specifically set forth in the police report fire lieutenant report and photograph on record with the select Board office uh the hearing will be held uh pursuant to provisions of General Law chapter 138 section 64 so do I have a motion to open um uh the hearing so moved second motions been made and seconded all those in favor say I I so this hearing as described is now open um since people will be offering evidence at this hearing I ask

041that if is there anyone here who will be presenting evidence to the board uh either in person or remotely to stand raise your right hand and repeat after me do we have so I think we have three four I think all you folks except for Mark should stand up right potentially and then anyone on line there that is on virtually that's going to say anything want to want to testify I'm not seeing any okay Kim Kim oh there she is okay thank you all right so Kim you too put raise your okay everyone raise your right hand and repeat after me I state your name I Kimberly Walbridge very good swear that the testimony I am um swear tesy I am I'm about to provide is the whole truth I'm about to provide is the

042whole truth all right thank you all right you may be seated all right so this uh hearing is now open so I'll turn it over to I think the town manager to present to introduce people to present uh okay so I think has everyone had a chance to read through so we kind of are familiar with the basics of what we're talking about here so Michael if you want to just present the town issues and then after that we'll get to the folks from the BFW to talk all right so thank you I mean I do think it was it was self-explanatory um you know the violations there's a little bit of detail involved in each one in terms of what um what is supposed to happen there versus what our uh professional Public Safety

043staff felt was happening there uh and so to that end I would probably ask um Chief Roby um if you would like to come up and outline what the what you have in your letter um that outlines the violations and how how they are violations essentially uh so the biggest things we're looking at is sprinkle of violation um due to the type of event that was being held that's why we wrote up a violation of not having a sprinkler um following the nightclub fire occurred 21 years ago yesterday actually in Rhode Island 100 people were killed Massachusetts past regulations that every nightclub dance hall discotech bar or similar entertainment must install sprinklers so then the question came up what about your vfw's your Legions Knights of Columbus fishing game type places so going through the

044sprinkler um hearings a lot the waiver was issued to them on only certain circumstances I'm going to read through them because it so I don't miss anything but they concluded they would not have to put a Sprinkle system providing they feature a meal as the main attraction the facility is used for events that it organized for the purpose of private function attendance for each event is limited and pre-arranged between the facility operator the private event organiz the number of guests is limited by written invitation or limited tickets available and does not exceed the attendance limit each event has a definite start time and end time tables and chairs are arranged arranged in well-defined aisles in such a manner to not impede ESS there is no significant low light situations the maximum documented legal capacity based

045on the available floor space is not less than 15 ft per occupant and that is a reduction just because they don't want a concentrated Hall the characteristics of the event as referenced are strictly controlled by an on-site manager and made in part by a written function event contract although there may be dancing to live music and recorded music during some portions of the event the entertainment is not the main feature of the event the dancing activity is limited to those persons who are attending for the purpose of eating a meal each guest has a seat at a table in such situation the occupant load is not typically concentrated or crowded in this event it did not appear to have enough tables and chairs and looked overcrowded from reports from my lieutenant that was on site

046and I believe he produced a picture showing that so that's the biggest thing I are we looking for sprinkler systems yes if they're going to continue this type of event if they're going to go back to a controlled event then they they fit the requirements not to have it uh crowd manager a crowd manager is required when you have over a hundred people two if you have over 250 we had estimates of up to 300 here wow um I believe the bill inspector will be talking about that but it their occupy limit is 250 right now must be the owner the operator or an employee working under the control and supervision of the owner or the operator who is the crowd manager so you can't rent the hall and tell the people who rent the

047hall they're in charge of it it's on the the building control they must make sure pathways are maintained assure they do not exceed the occupancy they have to initiate the firearm if needed they have to assure all exits stay clear and guests are aware of the locations of them and they also have to do a daily complete uh checklist it's a state form that they fill out um in this this case we were later produced a form that she did complete and it was a crowd manager they had one on site technically if they were over 250 they would had two but they shouldn't even have been there um the checklist was pretty much checked off other than three squares were missing and the biggest one being the Occupy was checked so um another big

048thing with the sprinklers and more for the VFW to know two violations of occupy in 12-month period is mandatory that sprinkler systems have to be installed so if they violate the Occupy load one more time in this year it's mandatory sprinklers it's not waved anymore and if they do get a third offense according to mess law they lose liquor license food license and all entertainment licenses for the property Chief the sprinkler cut off is what 250 or or just oh no Morey of over 100 over 100 and if it's not a controlled event like a dinner I guess right so basically they're looking you want more like a restaurant type style that way there's tables you're filling up the place where here if it's a dance hall you can load it with just people dancing

049around standing okay right any other well should we have questions now or uh are there more people that want to I think if if you have questions of the chief um you know you can you guys have question yeah go ahead we can start with quick question I think even even with the sprinkler system would that change the occupancy number no no I mean they could get away with the table so I technically yes I would have to say it would change it a little bit here they're supposed to fill up the room with tables everybody has to have an assigned seat so there for the amount of people that are there they all have to have a seat at a table somewhere what you're doing is you're filling up the room if they had

050a sprinkler system they could take all the tables out and have a dance just strictly dance flexibility but the ultimate square footage 250 would never be exceeded so quick question so the the three boxes that were not checked um where um basically it says with the respons you know about the responsible party to ensure no one in excess of the occupancy load um which includes all employees guests and performers and it's listed as Kimberly wallbridge but it's not checked off correct um because it's not checked off is that I would say it's not completed I mean Ally by checking it off it's verifying that she's saying she counted everybody and never exceeded the occupany okay and I think in this particular case is really the big issue was the Occupy load was okay and they

051have the person has to be dedicated to count um I sure if you read the fire report Lieutenant marowitz I think was going to try to be online if he didn't yeah he's he is online um their person was running the bar at the time okay and you're not going to be able to count and do two jobs like that yeah because the way the way the setup is is the bar faces away from where the occupancy is and there's a wall between okay well and that person is supposed to be free to make sure the aisles are staying safe maintained uh I believe you you could see in the picture that it's it's not basically what it was doing for the law coming in place was allowing them to continue on with their retirement

052bodies their weddings that they were hosting right you know without putting all those type of facilities out of business okay and so Chief your determination like the three main violations were the sprinkler system or a lack of a sprinkler system um the crowd the requirement of a crowd control manager and then the occupancy limit yeah okay and uh the last would be is just maintaining fire lanes and access to the parking lot cuz that's actually what started this whole thing was somebody driving by saw you couldn't get an Hance in a fire truck in and ended up it was the police officer who later called the fire department to come over there and so you know just for the board's clarification you wouldn't be making a finding on those issues that's the chief's Duty and

053and what he found you're basically um talking about the liquor license and whether not the actions that happened on that night um you know constitute um affect the liquor license in some way shape or form yeah I mean I hope from here it's an education for them to improve and monitor it Yolanda any other question I'm good right now thank you um so just to follow up so Chief what actions are are you going to take on these violations so I gave him a written notice for right now and we're going to go with the education of it and oh okay I mean unless we have to take further action down the road but that I'm going to consider is violation number one so that's a notice a second violation would be okay to shut

054them down until the sprinkler system is installed okay thank you Michael uh who no are you are you all set Chief okay um so one of the things that the chief mentioned was um blockage of of egress or Vehicles the inability of emergency vehicles to um be a part of that and I would offer up to uh Deputy Chief vula or Sergeant Rocky who is commanding officer on the scene if um you want to step up and give your your take um and Sergeant Rocky if you could also talk about like what was in your report in terms of what you had to do to get basically emergency access open and freed up absolutely um so on the night of the 9th my attention was initially drawn to the VFW because of a parking issue

055uh there are two main entrances into the VFW parking lot one was nearly fully obstructed one was partially obstructed so I could barely squeeze a cruiser in there um so again that initially Drew my attention just to the inability of emergency vehicles fire engines ambulances to make their way into the building should there have been an emergency um from there um we attempted to go inside and allow people to move the cars uh with no success I then called the on duty tow truck and a number of vehicles were removed um for safety so you had to physically tow yeah I believe two vehicles were removed by the tow truck okay do you have any observations about some of the well were there any specific laws that you enforced that were violated number one did

056is there are there any laws that you were sure um so I would say just given the size of the crowd safety of everyone that was in attendance was our number one priority um so safely when the determination was made that we were going to end the party uh with the fire department we were trying to develop a plan to safely egress everyone without a mass Exodus um so that was kind of our number one priority there um secondly the only other real observation that I had was a number of knit bottles that were consumed inside the VFW that were kind of strewing above the ground okay interesting okay how did you know they were did you say they were consumed inside you thought the empty knit bottles were on the ground inside oh inside

057okay questions or oh I had one from your report um Sergeant you said the security guards were armed yes they were is that usual or is that like is there something unusual or issue about that or anything nope it wasn't an issue we confirmed that they had valid license to carry firearms and in the performance of their duties as security there was no yeah legal violation there okay I was just I was a little surprised is that a usual kind of well maybe other folks can address that why someone thought it was necessary to have armed security there yeah well I can't speak to whether it's usual but um I haven't seen it in the past um but we did confirm that everything was above board with that company thank you other questions for sergeant

058thank you all right thank you thanks for your observation skills on that one thanks sergeant and then um our building Commissioners here Scott Doug do you have anything that you'd like to add well I can explain so what I can do is address the occupate load uh so that everybody has a clear understanding how it works uh I was not called to this so I don't know anything about what was happening at the time um the ENT load is a requirement under chapter 10 of this Mass State Building Code and what it does is it sets out the number of people that are allowed in a situation um so what I did was I I printed out a table this is a table that we have that we go by we can when we can

059create the occup Lo occupancy load in this situation I inherited this you know like the rest of the places if I have a problem I have the right to go in and do I change the occupant load if I if I needed to um and and so in this situation it would be considered an assembly use because you've got greater than 100 people in this in this particular uh in each floor cuz in this at the V BFW you've got uh occupancy load where this incident took place of 250 people and then you have the bar downstairs which has an occup occupancy load of 150 people so the different types of occupancy load are based upon uh fixed seating like if all these chairs were fixed permanently in place um they and without fixating where

060you're standing around the dance hall things like that and so uh and then concentrated chairs only but not fixed like this here and then unconcentrated which is tables and chairs and each one of them requires so many um square feet is how you get your Arup load so if you have an assembly area with uh without fixed seats and it's uh concentrated chairs only it's 7 Square ft so if you have 70 square ft of space you could only have an occupancy load of 10 people in there and then you have a standing space which is 5 Square ft so if you have 100 square ft you could have um 50 I that I think it do the M math right uh people and then if you had tables and chairs which is like a

061restaurant it's something like that you're allowed you're required to have uh one person for every 15 square feet so what the the captain was referring to was um that the the the amount of occupants can vary depending upon the use but typically what you would do is you would set that um by those calculations and that's what they would have to follow the other important factor is the certificate emancy that we issue every year because we go around fire department and I go around and we check exit signs emergency sites and things like that aisles are clear and safe um that is supposed to be posted so it can be seen by the public in both in this situation both upstairs and and a copy of it downstairs so that everybody can see so if

062the police or the fire or somebody goes and enters the building you can you can see or the crowd manager enters the building they see oh we can only have 250 people so I'm managing the crowd and I get to 250 people I have to shut the doors I can tell nobody else to leave unless somebody leaves then you can let one person in um so that's about all I can provide you for information to give you a general idea about that okay thanks Doug questions for Doug I have a question so the the 250 occupancy for the upstairs was that determined by tables and chairs or was that determined in a different way do you know you know this was long before I came here that somebody figured that out okay but you know

063depending upon what the board would like to do we could go in and I could go in with the fire department we measure the space out and and see what we come up with I mean if if they're not going to install a sprinkler system that they got to go with the tables and chairs yeah um and that means you know for every 15 square feet you get one occupant in the space so it's it's not that difficult to figure it out interesting okay thank you other uh questions for Doug interesting okay okay thank you thanks anyone else from the town no I I think that covers it and Deputy unless you want to to add anything okay deputy chief okay okay I don't oh Kyle did did you have anything that you wanted to

064add I don't think did he get sworn I'm here yep did you is there anything you wanted to add did you did you get sworn the chief Sergeant did you hear me did you get sworn when did you uh get sworn when we did the rest of the folks yeah I was I great thank you go ahead uh nothing crazy to add uh reiterating off what Chief Robi and sergeant rodkey had said uh the sergeant had inquired uh what the occupancy limit was which uh pequ my interest and brought me over there in the first place just to put eyes on the situation and like the sergeant said we our biggest uh concern was just how to safely Evac these people um without causing some Mass Exodus I did poke my head in I did

065check the egresses from the inside um what we call the alpha side on the fire service is the front of the building so there's two main egresses on the front side which faces Pleasant Street neither of those were obstructed for um pans per se in or out there was one on the left side as you come down where the handicap ramp is it was it wasn't blocked from the exterior it was just it would have been tough to get to from the interior just with the amount of people that were in that area um and other than that that's uh that's pretty much it okay thank you I I have one other question um just I don't I don't know who would be the best to answer this question but the occupancy certificate was posted

066um somewhere in the upstairs I posted downstairs just downstairs yeah I I was not able to find it I briefly looked for it after speaking with Kim on what the number was because I was uh not 100% positive and off the top of my head what it was supposed to be she said it was 250 which that's what it ended up being but I I looked for a posted sign and there was nothing at the time oh I don't think it says it in the contract either does it yeah I didn't see it in the contract all right okay we'll wait sir you you should be at the microphone so why don't we wait uh till you get there uh and um is there anything else brandy or we can so I think we're we're

067done with the town staff so uh VFW folks if do you want to come in in whatever order you like just come up to the microphone identify yourself uh who wants to go first we have two it looks like we have hi two people online Kim and happy to speak online since it's iPhone as well yeah did he get sworn I remember okay good all right so who wants to speak go ahead I'm happy to speak sure go ahead C we can hear you go ahead hear me okay yeah okay um so I understand the importance of safety in our Event Hall for sure um we definitely never do parties that make it a nigh hul This was um you know a surprise um I tell all my parties 200 is our Max I don't

068want to get close to 250 um the host of the party knew that so um I was surprised to hear that the count was over 250 you know um I understand that mistakes might happen within 10 that's why I wanted to you know that's why I like to keep it at 200 um just for extra caution um as far as as the three boxes go that wasn't checked off um it was because it wasn't a yes or no question on the checklist it's always I sign my name and then on the certificate it says the number and the expiration date my name and that's why they weren't checked off so it's not that they weren't answered I just didn't check the yes box because it asked for you know my name and the person responsible

069so just to clarify that um also you know in the six years this has never happened um now that it has you know I would make some changes that it can continue and you know we have a lot of different cultures that come in and have different events you know this was um a cultural um cultural Ecuadorian celebration and it's a festival and food was a big part of it um they do um food they do uh kids performances um and they have you know music so it started out that way um and there was no issue there were you know kids it was you know not a ton of people and you know I felt okay about how the party was going and at around 10 10:30 it's when it shifted and you know

070a lot of people started coming in it was um a different vibe um so at that point although no one was over served um because it had sort of changed and shifted from you know a family centered event um I decided to stop serving alcohol at the bar at that point um and I did walk around at that point assessing next steps and like what the level of intervention was needed and at that point the police and fire had arrived um you know I understand that I'm I'm liable to Monitor and be sure we stay below capacity and going forward I will keep count um versus in the contract I have it's the responsibility of the host of the party and he was the one checking people in um as far as security goes they

071were his security because I said I need to make sure nobody brings alcohol into the event so um you know that's why that um they were there for that um I didn't see the nips there was a bottle on stage at the end you know which I had seen um that was most likely from the DJ um you know but like I said going forward um you know I'll make sure that I know the capacity at every event that we have all the cbles um set up and that will also make it easier to keep track of the capacity because if there's anybody standing not in the seat then I will know that it's you know more than the amount that they said they would be okay anything else Kim I also have I have

072cameras that I have on my phone so like I can see different angles um you know so I was behind the bar um and I would look to see you know what's going on in there you know I can zoom in see like you know make sure you know um you know as best I can like what people are doing and you know nothing's being blocked and you know we're following all the rules okay thank you Michael did you want to well I think you want to had a question yeah we can start So based on the information that we've heard it sounds like it's difficult you're asking for them to be the crowd manager whoever the host is it sounds like you've asked them to be the crowd manager not the crowd manager but

073just um they were responsible for the amount of people that came in to be what they said that was set up to become in to come in okay and you were behind you were at the bar you were managing the bar was for the event okay so it it sounds like for larger events like this you might need to have another person to be the crow manager from what I can tell baby showers um you know yeah w they're all small simple you know this was you know an Ecuadorian Festival um the one we had the following night um was exactly the way I was supposed to go there once a year um but these particular people um that I had a couple of years ago um I you know asked not to come back

074because um they were difficult to work with and so it was sort of a surprise that it was them because they had booked under another name and I would never have allowed them back okay yeah that was in the report okay yeah that's what that's what I have for questions for this I just wanted to ask so you actually shut down serving alcohol prior to even the police arriving yeah because the the vibe shifted from the the way it was supposed to be and the way you know they said it would be to now you know younger people are coming in and you know uh you know the the children's presentations were ending and then it became like just a different vibe and that's not not how it was supposed to go so I started

075with okay how am I going to handle this I'm going to shut down the bar first and then you know assess from there because similar to what um Kyle was talking about you know I was fearful of a mass Exodus like how am I going to shut this party down you know and so I was you know just sort of making this assessment then and you know uh it you know they were standing on chairs they weren't supposed to do that um you know it was not going the way it was supposed to go at that point thank you so I have a question for you um we have a copy of the the contract that you Ed to um to sign with these parties that are coming in to use the facility um nowhere

076on that contract is there any information that you're looking for from people to like what the event is and how many people they are expecting and there's nothing on there that has an occupancy limit on it I do say 200 on there on the page under rules and procedures number two I put capacity as a maximum of 200 and it's it's the responsibility of the renter to ensure that capacity is not exceeded um you know it's 250 but I never want more than 200 I didn't see that let me hold on um because I I did look for that specifically um should be the second page uh we've got a lot pages in our packet just hold bear with me one minute um here we go so I have a hall rental agreement um you

077said it's on the second page yes so under rules and procedures number two so all I all it is says says here is entertainment must be concluded by 12:30 a.m. in accordance with our license as nothing about capacity directly above that not in the document that we have okay well I have the one here that was signed from the next night because I had printed that out so we don't have a copy of the rental we don't have a copy of what you signed with the renter we have your standard standard information probably was pulled from your website okay so yeah so I have this one and it's signed and it says I don't know if you can read it but there's a capacity of 200 okay oh yeah okay at that so is there

078is there a like um what is the communication like with you and the renter as far as what I speak to them first um either in person or by phone and then we go over the whole thing and I write down you know you know what the event's going to be you know how many people what time you know I you know I tell them all the rules and procedures and then we move forward from there they do a deposit I have them sign their contract okay um in the police report there was um a reference to an event that happened in 2023 with the same um it was two years ago and it okay the it wasn't a capacity issue um you know he they were just um difficult to work with and um

079I didn't want to work with them again okay so there wasn't there wasn't a similar similar issue with a large Gathering you know I'm just trying to get a sense of of the frequency of these types of events no we never have these sort of events um no it was you know I mean so we have um like Dali has a festival so that's like a similar idea it's a festival food event you know kids do some things um they do a dance um uh and this is the Ecuadorian Festival so we have a lot of different cultures that come in and have different things that they do um so this is something that we had booked before and this particular person had tried to come back and book and the the event that they

080had come was you know two years ago not last year and um so I had already said no you know multiple times and then they managed to book under a different name and said you know know it's for cultural event and you know traditional music with the kids doing the shows you know I asked the details about it you know uh for things like that they're a little bit different that I don't know a lot about and um you know and again it started out that way but then it shifted okay and then one other question about the security I assume the security was um the host had provided those I know it's it's required in your in your document that you need that they need to have security um for the festivals um uh

081you know for ticketed sales events like you know I'm not worried about a baby shower but you know I just nervous about events and thought that was like the smartest thing to do to make sure you know people were um you know checked to make sure they weren't bringing in any alcohol or anything like that so you know I said we could provide or they could provide as long as they had credentials um you know again this I don't know the last time we've had to have one so it's not something that's typical um I just had it in there in case and this was something like that and I'm happy to not have a party like this again so I don't think we have to worry about that going forward okay all right that's

082it for me thank you yeah anything else any other questions I just I just wanted to ask yeah go ahead hey Kim I just had a couple questions so um you know Sergeant Rocky and chief Roby and our Building Commissioner commer they they basically put forward a set of facts are there anything is there anything that you like dispute that they said no I W um I mean I hope there wasn't over 250 in there um you know again the host was supposed to keep it at 200 um so you know I don't know but no I think that's all factual okay okay thanks Kim if there's uh anyone else from the BFW want to speak or present any sure come on up come up here and introduce yourself and okay I am uh fredon

083I've been the bar manager here approximately 20 plus years uh I just want to assure people I was not there so at night it's past my bedtime but uh so I don't have facts that I saw but I do want to assure everyone that we don't want it Kim doesn't want it and I've been working with Kim for the last few days to devise a system that'll foolproof this from happening again uh a new contract format something along those lines that'll you know limit what they're allowed to do when they book The Hall also with a paragraph that if the criteria list isn't followed by the renters we can shut that function down at any time without refund that's uh because we don't want that type of thing there never have and it's a unfortunate

084incident that people can squirm their way in to a hall because it's that size and that's basically all I wanted to let the board know uh like I say not being there I can't really give facts on the situation that happened it's good to hear that you're already looking to address this issue so it doesn't happen again yeah oh definitely yeah we don't want it and uh I know I I noticed Rick Smith president is on the thing I don't know if he wants to follow up with anything before before so Mr Ron so how do you um can you go into specifics about how you would prevent this in the future like yeah I think a start would be in the contract that the people sign when they want to rent the function hall

085mhm and I just jot it now notes on the contract would be the credentials of the people what type of function are having a birthday a wedding whatever whatever it might be uh we would never accept a dance as a thing and the number of people they're going to invite or sell tickets to and make them stick to that you know within 25 30 they can't be 100% exact and a paragraph explaining to them that the main attraction of the function has to be food not dancing and music so they understand that and also that another paragraph that all the above criteria must be met or we don't rent them the hall and a paragraph that any time they don't follow the criteria as the function starts or before the function say a caterer doesn't

086show up and they don't have any food that we reserve the right to cancel that function on the spot without a refund of any deposits or anything so so only because I know you do have some functions there that are not related to food you might want to have two different contracts for those performances that you have that are not that don't have dinner associated with them okay we could I know that the only one it only because if you say it has to have food and then you have a function that doesn't have food they are in violation and they're you know that could affect your entertainment license oh I see okay we could make one for this yeah type of thing and one CU I know like the ash theater Society exactly has

087their plays there and everything yeah without food without food you guys should have food I guess that's a question food I haven't been so other questions for Mr a go ahead so I I don't know if I I was just thinking um for any event that happens at the VFW are either you or Kim on site for those events is there any circumstances where you wouldn't be on site I wouldn't be they go on a little late for me at my age but Kim is there for every function beginning to end regardless of what it is and I've never seen her miss one to be honest with you that's an important thing to make sure we know thank you well one thing I'm wondering does Kim have then the tools to shut something like this

088down when she sees a situation like that occurring because you got a lot of people and it's just her so I don't know I would suggest I'm sorry I would suggest that she do like she did you only shut the bar down and then maybe call the police department to make sure she has assistance clearing people out I don't foresee this happening again because we're just not going to book that type of a party okay if it happens under false pretenses then Kim could always call the police and say just assist me to make sure the people are okay leaving CLA did you have some questions no that's what I was just going to say is you know um I think you have to call the police and you know they're the ones that can

089help you the best uh in that situation to clear the crowd it's kind of scary I've been in a couple of situations in my life where crowds felt uh too big that than they should be and it's a little frightening yes okay um anyone else from VFW want to speak uh is I think uh Rick Smith here okay Rick hello y we can hear you I think hey Rick uh Rick Smith president of the association I I think they that Kim and Fred summed it up pretty well uh our feelings we we've always tried to maintain uh the quum within the within the parties uh every once in a while it gets out of hand uh there really with the with the dealing with the different cultures today it's very difficult to do uh it's

090happened before and we've shut it down immediately unfortunately this one went a little too far unfortunately there's really not a lot you can do about it uh without having numerous people there to control it uh you have to depend on the uh the people that are uh having the function to help you out with this uh situation but uh the the length the the L excuse me the L the language barrier is a little difficult sometimes too but we're doing our best to keep it under control and I think Kim as and Fred have summed it up pretty well what we want to do in the future and uh we hope you see it go that way that uh we need the BFW we need the the function hall for the people of Ashland a

091lot of people use it so we don't want to lose that and and uh hope you understand our situation and we'll try to keep it under control in the future all right thank you thank you any any questions or things for Mr Smith no all right um so thank you for that so I you know one of the things I just noted that one of the most serious parts of this is the fact that the and um the overcrowding the lack of a sprinkler and the egress issues uh and the exterior parking issues so I think you should think care y about that that could as Chief Roby mentioned that could have been a real tragedy um you know with you know the nightclub fire without proper facilities uh that's when really uh can be

092uh a real tragedy so if I can if I could just interject that as far as the egress we have we have seven egresses from the upstairs uh that are usable the sprinkly yes that was negotiated years ago that we wouldn't have without food and all that so we're we're pretty well good with that yeah and I think I'm also talking about the the exterior as well the parking and the ESS in and out oh yeah oh in far as getting out parking yeah and the driveway being blocked and you know so you just need to think about systems for that as well make sure those are clear I'm sorry Kim were you gonna say something yeah I was just gonna say I'll now that I you know I mean that's not typical I mean

093honestly sometimes the Bingo ladies Park uh where they shouldn't but you know people usually give a license plate and you know we have the move so you know I'll just be more um aware to give it a look you know when um other questions or thoughts or discussions so we did have the idea brooch that we would uh suspend this hearing and then take it up at our next meeting for final but uh so I'm I just want to get a sense from the commit my sense is I think it's the first time that they've come before us for this issue they've not had to come before us before it sounds like Kim and the people there realized they had an issue and that the things weren't done appropriately they now have further information from

094our fire chief and our Police Department to say what they need to be aware of I personally don't think we need to extend this I would like to recom you know a recommendation would be they get put on a warning or you know probation for 6 months and if something like this happens again in those 6 months then we visit making any drastic or recommended changes to their liquor license and entertainment license so are you you talking about like a imposing a penalty but putting it in abeyance yeah yeah I mean I don't have I don't have a penalty in mind my my thought is put him on probation for 6 months to make sure nothing like this happens again and if in those 6 months there's another complaint or the fire department or the

095police department has to go there again and it could affect their liquor license then we bring them back and then we look at putting a some kind of restriction or we've done things where and um a restaurant loses their liquor license for a day or for something like that so that's my recommendation so yeah go ahead yeah questions thoughts so um you know a couple things that came to my mind one um you know I I think that I agree with Yolanda I think you know Chief Roby and um and our Police Department um first of all did a did did a great job that night because it really um there there was no crisis it was it was handled in a really professional great way and no one got hurt which you know that's

096first and foremost um and I think that that hopefully um the VFW takes takes the um recommendations very seriously also I the the whole idea of rewriting the contract and making sure that um you are aware of what what the events are and and make sure that it's very clear what your expectations are for for these events that would be um important as well as posting an occupancy certificate on the upstairs I think that that's necessary um personally I I like the idea that you know our Building Commissioner takes another look at the space and makes sure that the occupancy um that the downstairs space the upstairs because Doug had said that he basically inherited the 250 number Oh I thought that was the downstairs I guess I missed that one it's sorry okay downstairs

097was so but I mean I would I would definitely support taking a look at it to make sure that that's that's a a number that should be supported by the whole idea of dinner or a meal as a major function of an event at the VFW um and and as far as you know it I think that you know I was looking through our policy of what our um you know what our you know our violation escalation policy is um you know I I think this was a really serious issue that happened I do think that um you know I I would encourage that if there is a situation like that that that they would call the police before it got to that point um so I mean I I would probably come down more

098on the side of um you know sort of a first violation with with a suspension held in abeyance which and have like a six-month period of re-review to make sure that these things are kind of getting addressed um well I say as opposed to there's no just giving them six months without any any you want them to come back and have some sort of discussion or revie yeah and so if we put something in a bance um in 6 months then there's no further incid there's no further incident then it wouldn't be it wouldn't be something that we would have to to um uphold and take the license away correct but you'd want to report or some kind of review with what measures have been taken yeah I would like I would like to know

099that that the issues are being corrected yeah there so can you leave the hearing open for 6 months could you do that no we would have no we would issue you need to close hearing and then issue a determination but then we would bring them back in six months or something so what do what are folks thinking so you think we can uh close the hearing tonight and actually issue this order hold it an OB bance and ask them to come back in six months is that is there any other details we need to add to that or any particular things such as the uh capacity calculation or view uh the occupancy or anything like that you want to include I guess my question on that would be um and this would be for our

100building inspector right based on a visual look of the building is 250 a good number or would you have to go in and actually do the measurements to figure that out that that would be a question right cuz yeah again based on the hear you know the information that we heard from Kim she usually leaves it 200 this this particular incident went above that it went to the 250 potentially even further so is 250 the right number does it to bry's point do we want to go in and double check that or as I said do we leave it like this for six months and then go back if something else happens but to be honest with you it's not a big deal for you know the deputy chief and I go around to all

101the liquor establishments okay and uh so it's not really a big deal for us to go go in there take some measurements we'll base it on uh tables and chairs which is one ENT for 15 people will'll double check the aisles uh the means of ESS uh and give it a walkth through and I can give a you know I can give a report to the town manager and he can share that with the select board would it also make sense to do one with chairs like this um because they do have events chairs like this whatever you would like to do you typically you get one occupancy load you you typically don't have multiple occupancy loads because it t to be very confusing so you know if like in a situation like this if

102the police go into a building we don't have nightclubs here right but if you're going into a nightclub or or a big bar um you know they like the officers were saying in the fire department were saying they looking for that right occupancy occupancy load and if they have to youve got to all these people noise you know band or whatever was playing yeah it's hard to try to figure out well what's it supposed to be I see so we would give them one and because it's uh it's it's not sprinkled it can't be a night Club so we don't want to give it to them with the ability to to uh have just wide open space m so it seems to me and I can talk further with the the chief and the deputy

103chief that the occupancy load should be based upon tables and chairs because that's most use the food is supposed to be the main I mean that I'm not saying that you know that the they can't have a Dan floor for little kids or the or whatever they want to do I'm saying but the bulk of it is when you get a larger crowd you want to make sure that it's manageable right how's that compared to the theater use though like is that going to be a problem prob that should be a problem probably not because because that you know I don't know how they set it up but typically you would take an area away um for the stage from the space to do your stage well they have a stage but I think from

104your point the best play the best way to do it would be tables and chairs filled in the space okay yes okay okay so other thank you um other discussion or thoughts so Brandy do you want to frame a motion so let's CL I I assume let's close the hearing sure I'll do that hold on any other discussion thoughts okay you should probably make a determination whether or not you want to make a determination tonight in the hearing as part of the hearing or yeah because once you close it you can't you can't right oh okay continue so rather than suspend it right like if we waited until the next meeting so if you wanted to wait until the next meeting to discuss and deliberate further and decide what you want to do I would

105suspend the hearing until and we could talk about the date um I would propose the second meeting in March just because the first one is is a lot or if you agree amongst yourselves again you can't necessarily take a vote that um you know you'd like to make a determination tonight then you do close the hearing and go ahead and make that I think it makes sense to make a determination tonight I don't personally see any reason to ex to suspend go another month and then have further disc discussion I don't know that I would hear anything else except maybe Joe's opinion which I sort of know where that might come in so so for me I would rather make our determination and finish the hearing tonight rather than suspend it until the second meeting

106in March okay I agree yeah age okay so there there's if if that's the case and that's totally fine um there's one thing that I would I would recommend um is that you know we've talked about the police essentially being on call crowd control um I know in previous instances where we've had issues with crowds specifically I'm thinking Hanto um the board's required a detail to be these Ty of or if there's a certain number of people you might want to consider putting that in as as part of your having a detail if it's a certain kind of event or a certain number of people that they're expecting I think that makes sense how are we going to Define that thank you um we are kind of volunteering you for some work here so well

107yeah and that's fine and obviously we're always going to be there when you need us but um certainly like in this case what comes to mind to me is if the the person holding event felt the need for armed security I mean we've all kind of picked up on that now there wasn't there wasn't a legal issue there but um and I'll say from myself I was a little concerned that we weren't notified of uh or just made aware that there was even an event in town that may require that um so certainly I personally would rather um to be able to be proactive to know that that event's happening than to have my my officers have to respond um you know reactively to a situation that's already out of control which is just a

108bigger safety issue if we have you know um so I would definitely ask as part of this kind of restructuring um or you know reorganizing these events that um that is taken into account that we're you know made made aware um until the Tom man's point if it's going to be a an event that would require in armed security I mean I think I think that needs to be some a discussion you know um and even to the point is like why why did a kids event need armed security like that's you know something that question my mind that's kind of a red flag that maybe at that point you know um obviously there was some there was some um misinformation with booking I understand that um but to me that would have been a

109red flag that maybe um a little proactive effort would have been would have been um what about the whole what about the you guys being on call or having a detail as opposed to security so I I mean I can't guarantee the on call is is tough obviously we're going to answer the calls we have mutual Aid response um but you never know what our call volume is going to be like we you don't know what our office going to be tied up for if you're going to have an event like that I mean it needs to be a detail where their their primary focus is that event um not pulling our resources like that night I believe our entire Patrol re resources were tied up with this one event U without being able to

110respond to the rest of the town so um one thing but but what about if if there actually this lower occupancy and doing like T tables and chairs are they ever going to reach the level where a detail would be needed I mean if we're talking about a a you know an Italian dinner with the mom and Mom and daughter's Club I don't think so but I mean in this specific situation that we're talking about it was clearly a situation where we needed to I I feel we needed to be involved um yeah and whether they knew that going in or not I understand that in this particular case there was some uh again some misinformation in the booking um but there were definitely some red flags uh I think that um you know had

111we even when those were seen if we were allowed to you know be aware um but going forward again I can't having my patrol Force as a standby crowd control um we just don't have the capacity just don't have the capacity and again I would call M you know the sergeant whoever was on would call M we we would get people there um but it's just not it's not the ideal situation and U this definitely safety concerns thank so some of the thoughts I've had to put in this would be that um they need to notify the police of events that are going to be over 200 people and we I these are just some my thoughts Andor they have to discuss with the police department if security issues come up or if they know

112they're going to be over 200 people and then the third part of that would be they would be required to have a police detail if there's going to be an event with more than 200 people yeah I mean that's that's a good start thoughts yeah I mean I think it it's hard to figure out when you might need a police detail right sometimes it's not a matter of how many people as it is is how they behave um but I think the the idea of a detail forcing a detail did come to my mind as well I have to say that probably that one of the things that bothered me almost the most in all this is that were two armed guards there that was when I read that I thought I never would have

113dreamed that right yeah and and to your point like it I just questioned as to why it was felt that that would yeah exactly but you know then how do you even know that that's did I mean you know do they have to show their if they're armed and have to show it they can't be concealed so they were uniformed which was which was one of my first questions cuz obviously my first question one of my first thoughts was are we talking about plane closed security guards with firearms and now my officers are responding and they're seeing guns and then that's that's a whole other issue that I don't want to think about um so thankfully you know they they did have marked Vehicles they did they were uh uniformed um you know and were

114were helpful to the officers so and again there was no legal issue there but um well then that was definitely a red flag then yeah so one of the things that I noticed was that in the in the contract where IT addresses security it says any event with ticket sales must have a minimum of two um two security guards for the event and I'm I'm I don't know if that's necessarily the right structure for it like ticket sales should not be the trigger yeah I think I think size of the event is much more of a trigger yeah because you could sell tickets to recital right so yeah so maybe maybe maybe it's you know there should be security and you know they need to provide that to maronies and Marone needs to provide that

115to the police department to let them know that there's going to be security there at this event or something and by all means you know we're we'll make ourselves available to discuss and meet with V when they have they believe they have an event that's going to meet the criteria um and you know we can make our determinations together by all means we just want to let them have their you know have their business they you know staple of the Town we're not looking to disrupt that we just want to make sure everybody remains safe and I think that's the thing for me is that you know just like when we have a marathon coming through town right one of the things we say to them as the organizers is you have to work with

116our police and fire department if there's going to be something that comes up so you know and if we don't think 200 people is the right is it 150 people if you know you're going to have an event of 150 people you need to bring in you you know Kim or whoever needs to have a conversation with the police department to say okay we have this event coming we have this many people what are your recommendations and again I don't know that it has to be a police detail I mean we've had real serious reasons that we've had police details but it certainly could be if you know you're having an event of of more than 150 people before it can go forward is you have to have a discussion with the police department to

117make sure that parking and security and anything like that that might be impacted has been reviewed I I would I would make the suggestion that it be required that they get the police department and potentially the fire department's permission that if that's yeah whatever the language is but I think they similar to us right we say you have to have a you have to have a sign off from the police and fire that what you're planning on doing make sense for your space so and what's the cut off well that's that's that's a good good question um I think 200's a lot i' would say 150 would probably be I mean I don't know how many events you have with 15 you know you get to that much Tim how many events do you have

118with over 150 people um probably 20% wow I was at the Jimmy tingle comedy were you there how many people were there that looked to me like over 150 were you there for that event you were yeah no it definitely wasn't over 150 oh it wasn't okay all right then we're okay yeah so 150 sounds like a good cut off then I'm just trying to judge from that room was pretty full you know is that okay so yes okay all right so does that make sense that they if they're going to have an event of 150 people or more they are required to reach out to our Public Safety departments to ensure that plans are put in place to handle the that volume of people into and out of the site and into and out

119of the building yeah I would say require a sign off right I said required yeah police sign Public Safety sign off y Kim thoughts on that that works for me okay I'm always welcoming the feedback to make sure everything's safe and good we do the right yeah so you are putting together a motioning Joel I just have Joel do you have a brief comment okay thank you deputy chief I'm hearing a lot of great ideas what I'm not hearing is really encouraging those who are going to enforce whatever policies you state lots of good ideas that what is the incentive in the contract that usually contracts have remedies if you don't adhere to the contract and what I would think should be given some consideration is either aurity bond which I'm not a lawyer again

120I'm not quite sure what that means or perhaps a security deposit you rent an apartment you give the landlord a well there is there are all in the contract that the that they have there are all kinds of security deposits and things like that so and that's not what we're addressing understood what we're addressing is the behavior and the safety of the events that are happening there but thank you for that inut okay so um we'll do the motion after we close the hearing correct correct yeah so is there any other further discussion or thoughts well I would just offer one one thought I mean directly to the to you know the VFW and um everybody here wants you to succeed um one thing I would just be very very clear about is that you

121can't necessarily shift the responsibility onto the renter so you mean your license is your responsibility and so you can't basic you can't say okay you know the the party that's renting the the building is responsible for you know crowd control or you know checking the people at the door it's ultimately going to fall to you guys um it's just a point I think yeah that's a good point yeah Mak sense okay so we ready to close the hearing yep motion to close the hearing second motion's been made and seconded Al those in favor of closing the hearing say I I oppose none okay so the hearing's closed and we will go on to the portion where so Yolanda you have a motion that you'd like to make I think so so I move that we

122require the VFW maronies for any event that is going to be over 150 people that they get a review and sign off by our Public Safety department to ensure that all parking and interior um requirements and safety is being followed does that make sense okay that's one motion I think that's and we're also uh are we doing this Standalone then we're going to add let's do yeah let's do two let's do two because I think that's something that needs to stay in place okay all right so is there a second for that any further discussion on it yeah I'll second that okay all those in favor of Yolanda's motion um as stated say I oppose none so the motion carries thank you and then the other thing I would say is I mean unless we

123feel like we need to put a day or two in OB bance against their liquor license I would say that they are in probation for six months um to make sure that nothing like this happens again if it does then they'll come back before us and we would review a potential penalty against their liquor license at that point all right so I so I would say I I feel I feel we need to put something in a bance because there were nips on the floor there was alcohol that was not being served from the from the bar in the facility and it's their responsibility to have control over that situation um and I am I'm fine putting it in a bance and and having that come back to us in six months and report back

124but I think it's important for us to have um I I I to have this have consequences in some way shape or form so what would what would we be putting in OB bance I would I would make a recommendation that um the for in our policy it says um I think it's 1 to 3 days for the first time offense um I would say that that um that we have um to do a a two-day liquor license suspension held in a bance um pending uh a review in six months that there's no further incidents um and that our Public Safety Personnel Plus our Building Commissioner are satisfied with the with the changes that have been made with the changes that have been made yeah because I think that's important because they the they talked

125a lot about things they're going to do so I'd like to hear or you guys would like to hear that yeah because I won't be here but it'll be your problem probably not yeah um so I mean I think that's a good suggestion i' support adding that um so we have I don't know what we have we have a motion that was made but not seconded I think and bry's suggesting some changes okay so I'm going to see if I can put it all together uh I make a motion that we give uh Marone VFW a 2-day liquor license suspension to be held inance oance I I was getting there abeyance for six months should no other violations or complaints come before this board against their um license against their license and to uh report

126uh from and then in after those 6 months they need to come back and tell make sure nothing has happened that they've done a review of their contract and that we've gotten a review of their use of space okay uh do I second for that I'll second that second motion's been made and seconded uh all those in favor the motion is stated by Yolanda say I I oppose none the motion passes thank you all right well thank you all I think this concludes this particular item thank you for your work on this yes sir yeah should come on up here and thank you all yeah thanks guys on a two-day liquor license suspension did do you mean in a period of 6 months or so basically what would happen is if something happens and we

127have to apply that suspension we would determine what those two days are so we would either say you know the first Friday of a month or the second Saturday or whatever we're hoping to not have to do that but should something happen then we would let you know when those two days are all right I just want to clarify it's almost sounded like you were assessing a two- days sus no no no no we we did but we put it in OB bance for the six months okay and should nothing happen in those 6 months and you do the work with the police and fire um and you've updated your contract and there's no other issues then it will then we'll take it away after six months it's like a warning with consequences there something

128to clear okay thank you all right that brings us Kim any further questions or comments no thank you very much you're welcome thank you Kim thank you good luck thank you all right if everyone's ready we'll go on to the next item in the agenda anybody want to break or anything no we're all said okay we're going to go through okay the next item is discuss the zoom problem that took place at the plany board meeting on Thursday February 8th just to clarify that that was um as I think we all know but just in case people are wondering this was when uh a group of people masqueraded as concerned citizens attempted uh really invaded the public comment per to the ashon planning board to spew hateful racist anti-semitic and anti-gay rhetoric um I did

129on behalf of the select board issue this statement as as did the planning board condemning this and uh reassuring everybody of our support for all our citizens and um and our efforts um you know you know speak out against hate um and some of the ideology that was expressed by these people in the racist anti-semitic and anti-gay language so I I did want to put it on the agenda just to kind of um if anyone had anything uh they wanted to add to that but also to talk about how we as a community uh are as as as in our own public meetings deal with um should this uh sort of thing reoccur and just to want to make sure that we had both technical kind of skills and knowledge available for our Zoom meetings

130about how to handle these but also kind of a um you know procedural or legal approach uh to this U this sort of really what is a coordinated attack that's not just a random person coming in and trying something or some kid but this seems to be a systematic approach and effort by an organized group unfortunately which is taking place throughout the uh at least um the country and at least in our region I know of similar I think most of us have heard of similar incidents in in Framingham in Worcester and other towns uh so this is something I feel we should be prepared to be cognizant of be able to take action against know how to handle speak out against um Etc so I just wanted to uh you know put that on

131the agenda for discussion so I'll open it up for discussion or thoughts the things I do want to try to address is both making sure we have a mechanical ability to handle this thing so we know what to do so that all chairs of committees know what to do and then kind of like a legal moral response or uh you know I guess a public policy to response to this sort of thing should it happen again so having said that I don't know if Michael if you had any other introductory remarks you wanted to make maybe updates on some of the technical or other things that you're familiar with yeah I would just it'd be similar to what you said Rob I mean there's the legal aspect of this and then there's the technical aspect

132and so I think from a legal perspective we re received guidance from the District Attorney's office um as disappointing as it may be um we have received guidance from a legal standpoint I've asked Paul Bowden and Paul Carpenter to talk and work out some technical things that we can put in place to first of all look at preventing something like this from happening but if unfortunately it does happen what what we can do from a technological perspective to to do that and maybe it's it's something a change as simple as you know having it to where everybody is m muted and the only person that could unmute a person to speak is the host you know um something to that effect um I think it would be a little bit more robust than that but

133that's that's kind of the way I I see things so just to clarify so would that be the way we would do all public meetings everyone would be muted and then would that include well it wouldn't include people in there in person but basically anybody on Zoom would be muted except the chair would then could recognize them exactly so that's the mechanical kind of exactly so that keeps people from being out of control however what it it doesn't address if so you recognize under what circumstances do you recognize somebody how long can they talk what is it they can say what do you do as chair um to handle that right so that's kind of yeah I would agree kind of the unknown so I just wanted to throw it out there for people to

134think about or talk about so I one thing I wanted to just make sure we also talk about this wasn't the first time it happened in Ashland so there was there was um a library trustees meeting in December that was Zoom bombed with a similar um similar messaging so I just want to make sure that you know you know we publicly talk about that one as well so this wasn't just the the planning board but um you know I I I firmly believe that having hybrid meetings is sort of like the best best practice because it allows public participation which we like um it allows access for people who may not have the ability to to come here in person um I do think that you know we do always try to balance freedom of

135speech with um you know the hateful speech that um happened at the planning board and the library trustees is you know just unacceptable it's literally it's it's um it it it really is unacceptable behavior um so I would say I would my thing would be you know I know we have public participation at the front end of our agenda if this does become an issue I would probably suggest moving down in our agenda um you know we make public participation first you know as a convenience for everyone that comes to our meetings so they don't have to sit through three hours of our meetings but um um you know we could you know change the position of citizens participation um as an idea and how would that how would that you think that would then

136make it less likely or what would that do I think if somebody wants to talk to us they will they will stay on to talk to us and if they if they're there to zoombomb us zoom boom zoom boom um they'd be less likely to hang on for a while you know I my personal perspective well they know when it's on the agenda right we're going we move it down the you know okay but that's my you know and I like the idea of muting everybody except for you know the host that can unmute because I think that that helps control yes who can speak so one thing I just wanted to add that I know one of the one of the Mayors told me um I for but they have and some towns actually

137do this where they there's a list of allowed speakers based on either some sort of email or some sort of communication they've made prior to the meeting and they're basically on some sort of list and those are the people that are allowed to speak it's a much more controlled I'm not necessarily saying that's a great thing but they have a list of speakers so there's no surprises no one comes in randomly but you know you have to have that process and you have to similar decision making like who gets allowed to be on this list but anyway so just the thought go ahead Yolanda were you gonna Claudia go ahead you want to go yeah go um I agree this was serious I also want us to I don't want to say overreact but I

138at this point I don't see the need to change where we have citizens participation I don't know that that'll change behavior um I do like the idea that we work with zoom technology and as we allow people in we keep them muted until we can unmute them um and the other thing I would recommend is and I don't know if um mapc or MMA has something but maybe we look at some kind of training for all of our boards and committees and it does I don't think it has to be a lot very detailed it even could be you know done at at our volunteer breakfast or something like that just to say okay here's some information on how to handle this if you're in a zoom meeting and you're getting Zoom bombed or you

139know whatever it is or someone seems to be orderly and coming in and speaking in a way that you that is not appropriate for the meeting I think those are some things that we can look at and do you are you aware of any kind of guidelines uh not off hand but I can I can research that from MMA to see what they have I'm because as you said we're not the only Community dealing with this there are other communities there are other organizations that have seen this and that have heard about it and I'm sure someone is already starting to talk about it so I'm willing to do the research and see what what's available because I think that's that's how we handle this I I if I think if it gets bad at

140all of our meetings then we look at maybe saying okay if you want to come speak at citizens participation or participate in any of our discussions that you need to email in I don't know that we need to take that task on right away quite yet um but I do you think the idea of keeping everybody muted until it's time for either citizens participation or a a you know a section that we know we're going to ask for input from the public that's those are my recommendations yeah I I guess um number one I think it's pretty easy to have everybody muted and and have the chair unmute people as as we go along um you know I think that the other possibility is is it only people that we allow to speak and and

141we need to make sure that they identify themselves and their address like we do at town meeting um make sure that we're following that and you know the bottom line is I mean I think we all value free speech um and we certainly don't want to see that be impacted however we also live in a time when hateful speech has become almost part of our climate at all levels of of government unfortunately you know in some instances LED from very high uh political figures and and I think that that's an opportunity for every single one of us to to stand up and and say that that's hateful and wrong and we do not support it it is not who we are as a people um and and that we need to be outspoken um we

142not sit back and you know I remember um as a you know a college student one at one point reading um and I'm sure you've all seen or read it at some point in your lives and it was an it was a letter that somebody had written about um it was World War II type it was you know I was you know I stood silently when they came and right and I cut it out of the paper and I carried it in my wallet for forever um and so I mean I I think that's so critical that we all um take this as an opportunity to stand up and say no that's not who we are in this country and that people who speak like that and talk like that and behave like that um

143are abhorent and that they are uh hateful and and uh that but that's not who we are and so I think we turn it on them and say all right you'll give us the opportunity to stand up again and and say who we are um but certainly in the meantime things that we can do to try to minimize that sort of thing um we should try to take advantage of those I like your idea about you know ashin res we kind of do it informally it's it's not really a requirement but that would be something certainly to consider like public par your name and address and who are you if it's not to interrupt but my understanding is at least one of the people who came to before the planning board gave a name and

144address before they started speaking well I'm not saying that that's that's not going to stop it was not a real name no I understand that I understand it wasn't a real name but for address yeah no and absolutely that's going to be the case right if somebody wants to circumvent those kinds of things they're going to but um you know it's just another evidence more evidence about their cus right um if they can't even say who they are and then you could I suppose if you didn't believe them or you weren't certain of their status that could be a grounds for shutting off I guess so yeah I I mean again that's it's it it just is evidence of cus really right yeah that's why I don't think they'll show up at person in person

145you know well I mean that to to bry's point right we love the idea of hybrid because it allows people who to participate yeah have kids in bed at 8:30 at night who want to come into a meeting they can do it via or you know or if they can't drive or they whatever it allows them to still particip ipate and I'm so glad to hear that we are going to be allowed to continue hybrid it's going to be made official here in the state that hybrid meetings will be part of open meeting law will be part of public meetings but as with many things right you have technology that helps you do things that then that same technology can help people who want to be mischievous or hateful or whatever allows them as well

146so I it's finding that balance Randy yeah I um one question I I believe that the that when this happened at the planning board people were on camera but I do think it is important that if people are going to speak that we do see faces that people are on camera that we do not allow we don't allow people to speak without being on camera because what I think I mean unless something anyway um what I think is if you have them then on camera you can then potentially use go to the police with that and say Here's the person and there's potential of then finding them yeah or at least or at least least keep track yeah um Joel did you want to say you would did you want to say something about this

147and is there anyone online that wants to speak I don't I don't see anybody uh okay go ahead Joel I have been reading a lot since this happened I found it very upsetting the whole incident and uh one of the things I read I think it was today was they asked and I think it was winr has had a lot of issues with this that's been in the in the Boston old quite a bit this was like a year to two years ago and uh they asked the FBI to comment on it so you know we've all heard the term hate speech we get into talking about standing up for our residents with all the diversity we honor here and the FBI said that this that Zoom bombing this is they didn't talk about the

148language they never referred to that but they said Zoom bombing is cyber crime yeah what does that mean what is our district attorne say you know it's beyond my pay grade I have no idea but but maybe it is a crime maybe we shouldn't just accept that it isn't a crime uh there's two different issues here there's one the hate speech and maybe that's protected speech and the the other is a massive disruption of a public meeting you guys are officials in the town we can't just come in here and you know start screaming at you you know I mean there's got to be some balance that's the point well on what you Shar with us Joel I think you can there you go and the thing of it is First Amendment rights give you

149the right to hold us accountable with anything you know if if if you wanted to come to a meeting and voice displeasure at something we are doing that is your right to do that sure if it if it becomes hateful anti-semitic or anti- a racist or any of those kinds of comments then that's a different that's a that's that's a that's a different category but it is it is your right to like to if you were upset at something we were doing that you can come and talk to us about it second point which you made and I really agree with this you shouldn't be able to duck behind the podium and speak when you come here you got to stand up and be seen you can't come in I imagine you wouldn't let me

150come in in a in a you know a Marx brother's outfit or something disguising myself so I don't see why we afford hybrid meeting we want everybody to participate we're really thinking that's a great thing that we have this tool but those people are allowed to not turn on their video they're allowed to blur their backgrounds or themselves they're allowed to put up pictures of Yogi barus or Yogi Bear or something and that's what you see when when they're speaking and we shouldn't allow that no we allow that so here is I don't know what the technology currently allows but it seems to me that if you guys go and call up Zoom like I tried to do today good luck with that you're you're going to get nowhere uh but maybe as a as

151a state we can say we are not going to allow your software to be used in our public meetings anywhere in the state unless it meets whatever the requirements would be you you say what it should be I'd like to see something that says if you are unmuted it shows you and it if you have a fake picture of a beach scene or you know whatever a picture of books on a library shelf uh the person before they unmute you before the host unmutes you I mean this gets to be kind of gamey but uh hold up two fingers because it could be a video it could be uh a static picture of somebody and you don't know if they're really there so you have to have some kind of interactive proof that it's that

152you're seeing a real person at the you know on camera uh so hold up two fingers now hold up your left hand one finger well and if they do it then you can unmute them if not you don't because it might not be the you might and and I think having to be seen I mean is you know the the government information is scary how quickly they can find people you know you saw that January they identified of those people all right thanks Jo do you have other points you want to make that well I wish you hadn't asked but that was it so anyway I I I think my bottom line here is that that the state and you guys and others should work with our legislature to work with the technology companies and

153they're going to want like if we're going to all switch over to Microsoft meeting or whatever they call it or this or that software instead of Zoom this that you're giving them an incentive to uh be a An approved product for public meetings in Massachusetts and they might have a little bit of an incentive to not get kicked out of the state so let let's leave it there all right thanks thank you I got a thing to say about okay sure Mark I'll do it right Mark the 49 hwon Road okay this is not the first Zoom bomb I set through there was another one that was a lot worse that that showed lutus and I'm not going to say where I found where I saw that that was that I mean I was at

154okay first of all technology is understanding that there are hackers out there that there are cyber space criminals that know how to get around systems without being traced cyber space thieves to understand that you have to upgrade every system look out for servers and be technically firewalled and um security wise and that's every other year to change but once you do that these people that come on that bom the zoom bomb they have zoom but they also have a a black a theft sort of things that goes behind the scenes that they can travel through I've been technically following this for over 10 years my computer I'm on 15 years everything I have been doing has not been hacked has not been thrown at back at me because I upgrade everything but when it's out

155there to the Cyber servers and everything that I can get out there for it's out there for everybody and what happened the planet board is nothing new it basically all started back around 2017 after presid the the election things that happen that's how that's how it got broken up in the systems okay so I'm hearing all that seeing all this and having everybody here to talk about participation say parti being pushing around and everything you can go so far with the people live in front of you but you but once you don't see them you don't know them they attack and that's what happened at the planning board and understanding everything that is work work behind the scenes that these people think they're proud to do yeah freedom of speech but then again there's a

156limit to sure what there can be actually put forth okay we in asht we're a small I'm not I got a lot more we here we just kind of running short on time Mar so if you could make a point quickly and the point was when Michael was saying that we talk to talk to um oh um our technological person here y Paul Paul Paul he needs to have a upgraded system here how long has it been before he last got pushed pushed up and not being uh what it called unfortunately Mark I I I hear what you're saying that we need to have Securities in place and firewalls and make sure we're using things I don't know that any security we put here in town hall or on our systems would help against some

157of the stuff that we saw on Zoom because even if you have firewalls and you have all the security and you make sure that you're using the correct malware and all that I don't know that that would help with the zoom bombing which I think is the the topic right now and then from the maws mawes is the servers that is the that goes out into the open then comes back and bounces all throughout all right okay thanks Mark thank you I see I do have to apologize I see Steve Mitchell is online he did send me an email uh with some thoughts on this but uh which I have not responded to but Steve did you want to say anything uh about this yeah if that's okay uh Mr chair so Steve Mitchell 5

158Newcastle Road are you who you are say you are okay I just want to make sure I'm by the rules here tax bill but but I think uh you know to kind of uh just uh add on to this conversation uh you know I firmly believe that elected officials wherever they are not just Ashland uh need to be articulating the values of our community all the time this is not going away this is happening everywhere it's happening in Massachusetts at a at a a statistical rate that is really unbelievable when you look at acts of anti-Semitism homophobia racism supremacist groups you would be shocked at how much activity there is in Massachusetts and the Northeast uh these are not you know when it comes to uh Zoom you know we may be dealing with Anonymous

159cowards but there's there's plenty of this Behavior out on the street uh my my opinion is you know boards committees need to be uh just vocal about and right UPF front at meetings that we do not tolerate this kind of behavior this is not acceptable these are not our values and uh you know I had sent an email to to Rob I mean I I think uh the board may want to revisit your mission statement it was it was created in 2015 uh it doesn't really refle reflect a lot of the activities that that that communities are dealing with today and uh so just just my thoughts on it uh you know I do appreciate the the the discussion uh you know I can tell you as somebody that comes from uh you know my

160wife who is Jewish on the uh board Board of Trustees that that is uh you know that that is just not acceptable uh yeah and you know I I would expect that all of us would be vocal against this as much as we can so my tune thank you thank you thank you Steve St good seeing you again okay all right any anything else I guess to summarize I think Yolanda is going to look into some things I'm going to pursue some stuff I've seen we'll we'll think about some of the suggestions that have been made here and uh it will reconvene and if future meeting to kind of uh go through some of this and see if we want to make changes or other other things that uh you know in line with best

161practices or things we've seen well I would like to recommend I think we all agree with this is that as we do Zoom meetings that people when they get brought when they're allowed in they're muted I think I I think we can look at that I think it's I know it can be done yeah it's just a setting you just TI I've seen it on large on large meetings where you know you have 100 people and so I think if we can look at that and just let all committees know that if you're doing hybrid when you let people in you keep everyone muted until it's time and I like the idea too of maybe either Revis revisiting the mission statement or um you know at least making a public statement at the beginning of

162our meetings sure you know what we value yeah great um and I think yoland had a great suggestion about train I mean we do have kind of there's a training component here not just us everybody else maybe is the volunteer breakfast a realistic time to try to do something with that or is it something else that we should I would suggest you know let let Paul squar the two Pauls come up you know finish their work and have a document that could be used as like guidelines okay that could be disseminated to all yeah all the bo what other kind of moral or social or political or policy guidelines okay well thank you for that discussion everybody um so go on to the next item um this is review and approv town manager contract and

163review the town manager evaluation process so um thanks Joel um so what do we want to so I think the the big picture here is that after an uh series of meetings with the town manager and the select board that we did um approve um new three-year con three-year contract starting retroactive to January 1st um and we're pleased you know I'm pleased and the board is pleased to announce that Michael Herbert Our Town manager will be staying with us for another uh three years I'll you know unless something really unexpected happens uh and that also um in connection and we're pleased to have made you know basically an agreement with with uh uh Michael about you know his V his pay and various other uh things um and in connection with that we're also are

164revising or reviewing the um the his performance evaluation by the select board and that will be an important part of this contract um so that's just kind of my intro to that is anyone else wanted to add anything about this the only thing I wanted to add is that um you know the this was a kind of an extensive discussion that we had as a board and we had with Michael um we took a look at um what the um Market was kind of bearing for Town managers we know that there have been a lot of town managers in um in our region that have left um there's a lot of burnout in the position um there is also um so we we took a look at you know salary and other things that we

165wanted to make sure that um we were in line with what other communities are um paying their Town managers we know that Michael uh you know we had talked to him what did what did we say how many hours a week you you generally work is it 60 70 but that doesn't include like going to events and things like that stop the events but um but we took a look at a lot of different things and a lot of communities to make sure that what we were um proposing and talking to Michael about was in line with um sort of like the market the going Market really um and we wanted to make sure that that we did um retain Michael for another three years because I think it's important for our community um Michael

166brings uh a tremendous value to uh to the town and to us as a board and so just reflecting that in his contract um I think we after much discussion we came to a good place so that's all I wanted to say about it thank you any other folks Claudia no um my this is my first experience going through the the contract process with Michael and uh certainly I I agree with what Brandy said it was uh it was um an important process and one where we felt the how important it would be to keep Michael on and uh and to reward for him for his work here um and that he has been a great asset to the community um I I lik a piece where we changed a little bit in terms of

167um the evaluation process and um that that will be more tied into his bonus and uh you know I think that that's important um as well and so you know we're um but we certainly uh wanted to keep Michael onard board here thank you thanks so yeah I I agree I think it was a good discussion I think for continuity for our community it's important to maintain Michael as our town manager uh if you look around not only our region but the whole state the number of town managers that have been stepping down and the communities that are trying to find new count Town managers has been very difficult and they've been long processes so as Claudia and and brand said I agree that it's important to maintain Michael as our town manager and in

168regards to the review process we will use our current re review tool one last time because we don't have the time to put in a new review tool and we need to have a review done before the elections in May but then after that and even now we're starting to look at what is our new process going to be and it will tie more into what he's doing in regards to goals and objectives as well as his you know his work so great thank you so in terms of Michael um anything you want to say um no I just I want to thank the board for um you know the confidence that you have in me and um and my team and uh I think you know it was a good discussion it was not

169uh at times easy but it was a good discussion I think Brandy like you said I think we came to a really good place at the end where we each felt like each other was being heard and um our different needs and everything were taken into consideration you know I'm looking forward to you know revising the evaluation process and I think it's important that it is tied had more language that ties in ties that in the evaluation process ties it into the to the performance bonus piece than what we had before but um you know I I love this community um I've been here now um it'll in May it'll be 11 years um and I'm excited to be here for three years more so great and you know I will say um I I

170just you know it's uh I appreciated some of the discussions we had also just a little bit about you know making sure our staff was compensated fairly um because uh really I mean we just couldn't do what we do without them um and I couldn't do what I do and you know have the successes that I have without such a good team I'm pretty blessed well thank you Micha so we need to publicly approve it right so I move that we approve the town manager um contract that we approved in executive session does that make and that's dated um January January 1st until December 31st 2026 and I'll second that all right motion's been made to formally approve the town manager's contract all those in favor say I I I oppose none motion carries 4

171Z congratulations Michael and congratulations thank you for the board for your efforts and all this negotiation so so just a quick question about the evaluation process for this time around are we like do we have a timeline yet as to what I'll present one at the first meeting in March okay um and it will basically start at the end of March and go through April okay basically yeah wrap it up just before town meeting right yep before the elections okay all right thank you um so the next item is discuss opening of next Grant cycle with submission due by March 31st so I don't know um before you guys get it before the subcommittee go Susan any um anything you want to say about this or um or is this mostly a subcommittee uh request

172um well I couldn't remember whether or not when you created the subcommittee the last time if it was for just that round or if they were going to do both rounds oh I think they signed up for the whole thing that's my so if they signed up for the whole thing you don't need to take that vote I'm just asking you to open the cycle okay and I will get it out I did have a question with which I want to or maybe think about to people so are we I I would like to increase the maximum on the the non uh the non um not on the other than nonprofit nonprofits yeah because I'm not sure the balance profit we had originally made it low my recollection lower because of the balance and but

173I would just suggest that we could use a little more flexibility there or you know a higher maximum um you know it's right now it's really 1,000 and plus you can get an additional 500 a year basically is the way I read that I would I would think we'd want to increase that or at least some some circumstance I think the concern there is the balance of that account right because that doesn't unlike the one that we can use for the 5013 C's it's lower it's that's done on the runner's account so we know that gets right we get new funds every year I guess I would suggest we don't for the other one right I suggest we give ourselves a little more flexibility but then if you're looking at a low balance maybe you

174then divide up the balance and lower your your max I mean so I'm just I'm just like maybe it should be like 2,000 or 2500 It just strikes me as a fairly low number for people I think when we looked at it most of those groups were $1,000 or less in the requests that they initially bless you that they had initially um requested yeah my concern is that that we need to be fiscally responsible about that that um select boards account the the gift account because I think we I think we have if I remember correctly and Susan can correct me I think that that account because that comes from um you know fees inl of taxes from the Warren Conference Center we estimate that the the money going into that account is about 20,000

175a year and we use that account for our scholarships we use that account for our volunteer breakfast the volunteer breakfast Runners breakfast all uses that gift account so and I I I think the idea is that we make sure that we still are able to offer um those types of of Grants to groups that don't qualify as a 501c3 I think it's important that we still offer that um you know if we get to a point where you know that gift account goes pretty low I don't want to sacrifice the scholarships and some of the other stuff that we do to to so Susan can you what's the current balance do you know um I can look it up I don't know it off the top of my head if you guys want to move

176on to the next thing I can text it to Michael and he can let you know uh well I just I I just wanted to address concern that we're running out of money I well my I would say that this is only the second time using this new criteria so let's use it this cycle and if there's an issue if we have people who are for profits who are asking for more than $1,000 let's address it at that point but I think at this point let's use these new criteria that we created just last fall for this next round of of of Grants and if we find that it's an issue we can readdress it but I'd like to just get this open and get the the grant process open I just want to note

177I've always objected to that low level so it's nothing new but anyway okay well so well it would be great if we if if if we had the if we could guarantee we had the the money in that account to do everything that we want to do I would say you know but we gave what $5,000 for the Niza Memorial we and we have you know so we have those make speci think that's part of my point that we we should allow ourselves that kind of discretion but okay but we do we do allow ourselves that discretion you just don't do it okay well we gave $5,000 well the other one's 4500 and these guys are I don't know it's just strikes me as 4,000 4,000 with with a maximum of 6,000 a year right

178and we have over a I believe we have over $100,000 in that account you guys seem okay so I I I agree with Yolanda I would say that what we need to do is is see how this whole cycle um plays out okay so we don't need to vote or anything because we're not changing anything I'm just no we just need to put it open and then do do yeah you it was Claudia and I yeah do you guys are you guys willing to do it again this okay yeah raise your right hand the one thing I would say is just to to put this out there so you know again there's there's sort of these two categories of Grants there's the baa Grant um which is funded by the runner's account so organizations per

179the baa have to be a 501c3 organization to receive funding through those through that mechanism um I would also say that if if an organization received $4,000 in the fall Grant cycle um a couple things one they need to um submit receipts or um a list of um what they did yeah what they did with those funds in order to request additional funds for this grant cycle so um if they if they did $4,000 in the first round they can request um $2,000 or a total of $6,000 for the the two Grant Cycles um combined and for the community Grant so an organization that does not have 501c3 status um the max is um $1,000 or if they received $1,000 in the fall that they can apply for an additional 500 and again they need

180to show us documentation as how they've spent the funds so and that's funded by and that is funded by the the select board gift account um which um like we were talking about kind of funds multiple um multiple things for the for for the community so so we're not um uh do we need to vote on the U the um no it's the same subcommittee so I think okay so we're all set so we're just planning to open the grant cycle the grant cycle um submissions are due by March 31st okay very good all right so um the next item was discuss potential increases and water sewer rates and uh Michael is s has asked to withdraw that one he's not prepared at this moment to go into that had nothing in our packet yeah

181so and the next one is review of Energy savings per the electricity Consulting agreement yeah so um I'd sent this around to the board a little bit a couple weeks ago but uh recently we changed um our Consultants that we use to procure energy um and uh so one of the requirements that we had now is that they provide an end-year report for us to kind of uh let us know how much we've saved um so I will say that we were we actually had some really really great news um so looking at back in calendar year 2023 um if you look at our procured um our procured energy versus what it would be if we were on the standard ever Source rate um we uh saved $72,000 um 72,000 yep the the whole Community

182or the town the town so the town like everyone who's part of it not our town buildings no Our Town buildings buildings um and then also on gas we've saved 62588 so you know not as not as great a savings but uh certainly certainly more than we would have if we didn't do this so so yeah um I think that's good news I think it demonstrates to you know people you know what um kind of what we're doing as as Town leadership to you know keep cost down and manage costs I know sometimes people think look at the initiatives that we that we put forward and the projects that we're doing and think we just kind of like spin spin spin um we do take the you know time to look at places where we

183can save money and you know this is just one example of that okay what would you um what would you say is the the largest contributor to these savings is it solar power is it the energy the rate that we the R we' procured so it's not necessarily the solar it's it's the right it's the um negotiated contract the negotiated rate and I will say so we're looking forward to um you know future savings um with electricity it's not going to be that as great um so one of the things that we're required to do now is make sure that all of our um electricity is sourced from renewal mes um that was part of the bylaw that was passed a couple Town meetings ago um and so our new rates uh 12 cent 12427

184uh cents um not all of that is because of the fact that we're at 100% Renewables um the majority of that is just where the market is um when we went to procure this but yeah so we'll be meeting those those gu or not guidelines but meeting the intentions of the that by law as well and is that the same rate that um you home owners residents can take advantage of no that's different okay it's yeah the aggregation program is is done is done differently um it's a it's a procured rate and everything but that one is 15 cents so so that's a significant increase with that one then yeah it's still yeah because I think it was nine it was nine I think it was 10 yeah we had we had such a good

185deal it was um because it was for like four or five years I mean that was a swing in a home run for sure bat in a th000 so what would it be um for residents if they don't participate in the you know so at this current period it'd be 16 cents but when it gets to the summer we're anticipating ever source's rate would be probably around the 23 to 25 cent range so it still be 10 cents still good savings is this something that what percentage of home owners take advantage of this do you know um I don't have that right in front of me Claudia but I would say probably 90% okay yeah the amount they've uh they haven't done this recently but they have generated a report that shows how much the

186savings homeowners have achieved through going through the town's negot aggregation program um and I me it's it's in the millions it's not in the hundreds of thousands it's significant like I said that rate was just incredible yeah it was so there was some concern cuz there's all these these kind of like quasi Shady characters selling the energy power to people I know I know some senior citizens who actually changed her electricity was changed without her apparent knowledge or understanding that shouldn't happen so yeah so we got to watch out for that that seems like that's died down a bit U right anyway okay anything else on that no no I think that's great thank you uh so reminders nomination papers available town clerk's office free covid tests available Town Hall uh reminder volunteer breakfast on

187Saturday March 23rd 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. at the community center um do we want to make any other comments about that we're moving ahead with that we be getting invitations if they haven't already and please RSVP if you've gotten an invitation so we can plan accordingly for food have they gone out Susan do you know or not yet I'm actually working on it right now hopefully tomorrow I'll have it out very nice all right thank you and the nomination papers when are nomination papers due April 3rd or 4th um only because I handed mine in today and that it's one of those dates I think okay yeah you can find all the information about how to run and what you need to do if you want to run on the town clerk town on

188the um town website yeah town clerk's office yeah um oh so the next is the consent agenda um and I don't know will I will accept a motion to accept motion to approve the consent agenda as presented second all those in favor of approving the consent agenda say I I I consent and Michael or anybody else I don't know if you want to uh comment any of the items in there I know we had able to hire two uh two police officers and we have a light equipment operator yeah good to see I was going to bring up during Town manager reports that this is the third straight meeting where we've had an appointment of a police officer and this time too um you know to the force and everything so this is we're heading

189in the right direction in terms of filling those vacancies um and you know the police department the police department personnel they've done a really good job of um of recruiting and and basically highlighting the benefits of working in Ashland and working for the Ashland Police Department so it's been great we just swore in um a lateral Melvin lagon um and he uh has just a great resume but he comes to us experienced already Academy trained this is an addition of these two guys yeah Melvin you oh we saw him last night U but he's uh he's uh just a great great guy great great candidate so um again we're moving in the right direction great with that so the um the exit from civil service has been a net positive oh so I mean yeah

190absolutely yeah um I mean we've had to kind of like do some you know we we've used a company called get badged to basically run that process for us um and they've done a tremendous job and and again our our police department has done a a good job of really highlighting the benefits of working in Ashland um so it's been a team effort for sure so wonderful okay thank you all right so that does bring us to town manager report um yeah just I'll start with one thing that's not uh listed on here on the agenda but that's the town hall roof um and unfortunately we got some bad news uh earlier this week and that it was found well just to kind of remind you what was happening before is there was a a

191beam that was cracked um and the roof essentially was pulling away from the top plate of the building um and it was it was fallen so we had already planned on doing a repair there um and it was going to be about $142,000 um what we did find out this week is that when this building was renovated it wasn't done according to the plans um on a specific area so basically a main load carrying beam um wasn't supported the way it was supposed to be on the plans so we're figuring out a fix to that right now so um yeah that was a little bit of a surprise regarding that is there you know either an insurance claim or not or if that's not worth it or going back to the PE you know whoever

192did the construction I mean if we can show that they didn't follow the plans I know it's been 20 years but I I would think that I don't know is it worth looking into who did the construction if they didn't follow the plans and now we're paying for it yeah it's always worth asking the question I think for sure but there so that was that um so update on the FY 24 and fy2 budget so um the fy2 24 budget I I provided the info to you in the packet you know I know it's a lot of info I was going to say we going through all the 100 Pages no no I'm just going to ask if you have any questions on ites so where are we um like comparatively year-over-year like at this

193point um you know I mean we have you know we're at almost March 1st so we have you know four months of fy2 24 budget left comparatively to last year at this point in time are we on track are we like do we think we're going to have you know money at the end you know like where are we compared to last year yeah we we're we're tracking very similarly okay um and so we should be about at like the 66% range on things um through December what is this through through it' be through March 1st I'm just think so the report that we're looking at only goes through the second quarter so from July through December correct okay correct um but uh yeah I would expect you know we would have a free cash

194balance at the at the end of the year once that's done I don't know if it will be as healthy as it has been in previous years I I say that every year though um but uh we did see a noticeable you know changed this year compared to this past year compared to the year before so line items that I'm seeing 95% 100% long are a number of them are longevity so is that because it got moved into the salary line items and that's why we're seeing that at 100% now already when we're only halfway through the year yeah that happens in the fall so those payments get issued in the fall okay and so it's it's one time so you will see it's been paid it so that's why it's going to be close

195to 100% okay one thing that that I would is it possible to get these reports in in a spreadsheet format instead of the PDF yeah I can see if Britney can can break down it would be you know I'd like to be able to filter on you know what's what's at 75% or greater or what's over 100% so that even some of the lines even you know you have to count down okay well over here in this column it's the eighth down so CU it's hard to even align them right well um one of the things I would ask for similar to that but it's not it's just kind of like an analytical summary from you or Britney or whatever like what's going on with the expenses yeah that would be great too but I'd

196like to be able to just zero in on something and say what's the story like you know even on on so I could ask a question or more easily yeah I don't know if we could do it quarterly I I certainly think we could do it semiannually you know to that level with a with an anal Yeah just something like what are you seeing like what's working what's not what's over what's under I mean we might be able to take the PDF if munus produces the PDF I mean they must produce an Excel you must be able to export it to an Excel spreadsheet I just yeah you can it's been a it's it's been a while but since I've done all that it has to be manipulated I would think Britney would be able

197to figure out how to on a half basis send this to an Excel spreadsheet and make it look you know and readable if if we have a if we use acrobat and have ownership of acrobat then we could probably export this into a spreadsheet I mean that would be sort of a workaround and doesn't seem like it would be necessary to do it like that but that would be a potential oh you're pretty good technical whiz Claudia yeah I know but acrobats those I try a couple of things with this which I know I could have gotten through but not at 100 Pages oh okay well we'll we'll make sure you don't have to do it has to interpret text and put it in a spreadsheet it doesn't always work that well I think but

198anyway I'd rather have the analysis myself but anyway kind of the detail so there's that so that was the um that that's the FY 24 budget so let's talk about the FY 25 budget um and just bear with me I just wanted to bring up my most recent um now we didn't have anything in our packets no no because we've been working on that up to the day um I couldn't find here let's see otherwise I'll have to do this from memory Emil us earlier oh okay that's why it wasn't in the P okay um like why can't I find it okay so if you recall you know we were looking at a$2 point something million dollar deficit the last time we we spoke um we talked about that so since that time so hold

199on just because we've never spoken about that we there were a couple of us like Yolanda and Claudia and I went to your department meeting oh right good point um board meeting we never spoke we've never spoken about it was posted but we haven't talked about it in an evening board meeting correct right so so kind of just you know because I know you've been in front of fincom and you've talked to fincom about it um but we haven't spoken about the deficit and where that came from and what it looks like and you know what the feasibility of it is because um which I think is important because not all of us were at the the the department meeting and also you know for people that might be watching understanding that 2.7 million doll

200I know you put it in your newsletter but it didn't have a whole lot of like context around it yeah and and and I would say you know I know you you're talking about a $2.7 million deficit in our budget but we all know that we're not going to be at that right that that was everyone you know your department head saying okay this is what we want to do this is this is what we want to get to so yeah so do you want me to start the 2.7 or me you yeah start at the 2.7 but I think we need to be clear that it's this was a starting point we were never going to try and fill in my mind fill the gap between what we think we have for Revenue in

201the 2.7 I was going to get there going to get there um but no I'll start I'll start back a little bit a little bit earlier so yes once once we got you know some idea of what our fixed costs were going to be and once you put in all the departmental the municipal Department's uh requests in and you looked at the school department going up the 3.75% that's part of our policies um we ended up with the $2.7 million deficit so so that's um and again a Big Driver of that uh were the requests from the municipal departments um and also the fixed cost drivers so um you know that's that was pretty much I mean benefits in Insurance itself is just $670,000 plus you know we're looking at less Revenue in terms of

202New Growth as well that's uh that's coming in so that's kind of where we're where we're starting from or where we started from so I don't know if you want to discuss that that aspect of it at all no um we can okay so what you know Britney and I have started to do and Jen's worked with us as well is okay how do we start whittling that down um and so one of the things we did is is we basically zeroed out all the requests from the municipal departments and you know basically said what if we just essentially level Ser do like a level service budget not level funding but level service right so we had a certain point there um and that was able to knock off about a million bucks um and

203then one of the things that uh we've talked about is Shifting more of our funds or expenses I should say onto revolving funds that we have and so we've started looking at doing that so basically with a level service budget um you know um excuse me just a second yeah a level service budget um we the municipal uh Municipal departments went up 341,000 once you shift some of that onto the Enterprise funds we would be at like a $200,000 budget increase and how and why are we shifting costs onto the Enterprise funds um because so it's Enterprise in revolving funds as well um it's not ideal but we got to make up the Gap I thought there was certain rules as to what was in the revolving funds and the Enterprise funds versus what's in

204the general appropriation yeah there there's there's um rules there's certainly rules um and then there's also guidelines that you follow and it's all in in line with that so for example we can't hit a certain like Recreation revolving fund there's there's two related to that you can't hit one to basically pay for personnel but you can you can do that for others or with with the other account I should say um which I would think we were doing anyway right if I have if I'm running a camp program and I'm hiring staff for that camp program that then it's going to match the expense for the camp is going to match the revenue that we've received for the camp so it makes sense to put it out out of the revolving account right yeah I

205think there's certainly some that come out of like this uh seasonal employees right like they certainly come out of out of that revolving fund what we're talking about about doing is Shifting more of like Kelly's salary onto a revolving fund um you know basically people that are paid out of the general fund um shifting it onto the revolving fund again that's not ideal and it's certainly not sustainable why isn't so you charge fees for recreation are you're saying so those fees wouldn't cover or there's a surplus that's going to get spent down is that well it's not sustainable meaning that we could do it for a couple of years but eventually it draws off unless the fees are raised yeah I mean well that's I guess what I was getting at yeah so there's there's

206that piece um what about while you're on that subject people always talk about the water and sewer funds those are the big ones are there are there any any examples of things that are changing there um well so it would be kind of a wash in a way on the Enterprise funds because essentially what we would do is take uh some people people that are paid through indirect charges for those of you not familiar with that there's direct charges and then there's indirect charges and direct charges are those expenses that are charged directly to the Enterprise funds and then there's also indirect charges where you try to capture the you know people's time oh that's working exactly um and you try to factor that in into the indirect cost people get suspicious okay yeah so

207so what what what I think people get suspicious about is when we shift from indirect to direct so I mean like currently Jen and I are paid from indirect or paid through indirect does it make more sense to have a portion of us charged through directly um what difference is there like there's not that's why I said it's a it's kind of a was because you have some rationale like x% of Jen's time goes to exactly whatever exactly so you know so is it to I'm just trying to understand how that works so is it a portion of each of your salaries is divided up amongst multiple um Enterprise funds or is it yes some multiple okay specifically water and SE based currently when it's indirect you kind of make a not a guess but

208I'm going to say guess as to how much time of your time is associated with working on behalf of that exactly exactly and we're not talking about huge pieces huge chunks of time or you know we're not talking about like 50% or anything you know we'd be talking about like 5 to 15% um so for instance like um on the DPW side I would assume Doug you know portion of Doug Small's salary is build to trash correctly right bless you trash and recycling so you know that that's kind of what you're talking about right like staff and different you know okay but it doesn't it does seem like a wash right if whether you Bill it indirectly or directly it might make more sense to people or something but but it doesn't there's no savings

209associated with that exactly ex that's yeah I mean it's more for I think still spending the money it's just how you're where you're getting it from it's an accounting accounting exercise it's even coming from same place it's just right and in the past we kind of looked at those allocations right you have certain rules or you know they're all listed somewhere right yeah there are rules um especially regarding the revolving funds um and there are guidelines associated with the Enterprise funds I just wondered if people wanted to see how that was done is it just like a handy list of like how things are allocated or kind yeah we have we have I think I've seen in the past it sounds familiar I think would be good is at some point we have a you

210know I don't know if we're planning a tri board meeting but I think that's going to be necessary especially because we not sure what's happening at the schools because they have some Union contracts that they're negotiating and I think it would be good for the boards Finance school and us to understand what some of these transfers are and then at the same point after that then do a public review of what we've done so the public understands what we're doing and why we're doing it yeah like one of the things I've asked Britney to do is keep track of how much more we're going to put on the revolving fund so I I can say you know okay this was the Gap that we had and this is how we've closed it and it's not

211sustainable um it's just it it's not um again kind of the the deficit after we made those adjustments to the municipal departments um is about 1.3 million that's what the deficit is so we'll find different savings and everything that we can with that and then we have to look at things on the revenue side then you know unless we want to talk about cutting programs and cutting services I I'm kind of going under the assumption that you would want me to figure out something with cutting programs and services well ideally but if we don't have the revenue and and it's I think it's a balance right I mean certainly we don't want to cut programs but if we're taking money to pay for things in an one sustainable way we need to talk about that

212we need to say maybe we do need to look at what we're doing and give the town the opportunity to say we can't do that anymore or certainly not this cycle it's too late but you know we need to increase our Revenue somehow right because another you know option that we're looking at or another tool that we're looking at putting together for this budget um is do I mean and this is getting creative is is looking at overlay Surplus um so the amount of surplus that we don't or the amount of overlay that we don't utilize each year um that basically stays in an overlay account for that year I mean would the board of assessors feel comfortable with declaring some of those year Surplus and that would make money available again it' be one

213time that we can utilize to help close that budget deficit for this year but again we're talking about onetime onetime fixes and you know shifting costs the things that are not um that are not sustainable long term right and you I've had you know a couple conversations with Jim and you know I think you know Jim's looking at a similar approach to you know what um what we're talking um why do you say it's not sustainable for an is that the Enterprise fund you're talking about no I'm talking revolving funds revolving so but they all have a revenue source so isn't it isn't it a function of what the revenue is like you could choose the raise the r interrupt you motion to go past 10 o' second all those in favor going past 10

214o'cl say I I pass okay um but just to but the revenue can be increased through fees in almost every case I think the question is are people think the increase in fees is Justified for what the service is or what they've been paying so I think but it isn't necessarily unsustainable if the fee is sufficient is it well maybe I should re reframe that and say based on current fee levels it's not sustainable I I do think if we if we're talking about um you know the the you know increasing Revenue we also have to talk correspondingly like if we don't do that what is what what is the proposal proposal to be cut because I think people have to understand what that would look like so does that mean a cut in services

215at the library and the community center and DPW and less less um you know what are the choices Services Town Hall yeah like cut back hours a town hall like so I I think I think we have to kind of show that because I think it's I think it's I think it's important people have to understand what what that means um because you know I mean I do think I think that you know you're talking a a school budget increase of 3.75 usually it's what 3% no um usually it's five like four five% so usually so it's less than it typically yeah so what our policy says is that it goes up 3.75% and the municipal departments go up 2 and a half% got and if we have Revenue over and above that it gets

216split 7030 amongst the school department and the municipal departments so what we've done in in previous years is I mean it's it's been to a point where you know you could spend 4% 4% increase on the schools and because the revenue has been there the revenue has been there um and um yeah we're not we're we're not there anymore there yeah yeah yeah because I think the reality will be something very different I have a feeling um I don't know what that looks like but um I I think I think it's going to be a tough budget year you know and I think we have to we have to be very clear as to you know when when people ask why why we're looking to raise fees on X Y or Z we have to

217show them the the the documentation as to like like if so if we don't do this we need to cut staff we need to cut back hours we need to cut back Services we have you know one less fire firefighter on duty we have one less police officer on duty that affects service that affects a lot of things in town so or whatever that looks like and I'm not saying we let go of Staff because I that's not what I'm saying at all but I I do think we have to be very clear of what the options look like so that people understand the decisions that we're all going to have to make together you know so because it's not going to be easy no I mean this year I've we've never been in a

218place where I've had to look at onetime Revenue to this extent to to cover this uh but we've been going in that direction and I've I've been saying that for years I've also been saying if we continue to take like a a slow growth what I call a slow growth approach and you know basically buy properties and take them offline to be you know where they can't be developed and basically push back against development we're going to have these situations where you have a new growth of $400,000 and you know it's it's like the new growth stuff is like drugs I I hate to I hate to say that you get you know if you're used to getting it at like the million doll level and you've you know fairly consistently and that's what you're

219thinking of budgetary wise um if you're getting 475,000 it's there's withdrawals you still have growth in the pipeline though and we've talked about those projections yeah Michael what produces if it's possible to um kind of put this in Lay terms or that like $100,000 in New Growth monies what what is that look like in the community um well I would say so for example um like Cirrus when Cirrus was added on so that added on about $1.2 million of of new growth in one year um sure over a couple years and that's based on was over two years but well no it it's one year but then it gets built into built into your base oh because of the property I was thinking of the fees the yeah the fees are different yeah that would

220come in like in in building fees and local rece Bas on the property tax I thought it hit in two separate yeah it it was split between like two I'm just saying totally that's why based on the property taxes associated with the property yes we still a bunch of Apartments coming up though I mean right so Chestnut Street when that hits that'll be New Growth when 501 Pond Street gets built but and then the after that but after that we don't have any I mean we have some smaller projects but well they always seem to be coming along but you yeah yeah so do you have a timeline in regards to your budget process tribe board meeting and then you know public discussion I know you've had some already with the finance committee but yeah

221um so what I was was hoping to do is Britney and I would do more of a full budget presentation on March 20th I think so our second meeting um what's March 20th our second meeting okay and um I think uh that'll give Jim and I a chance to talk to he's he's currently away right now right so but um we'll get together and I you know kind of need to see where what he's thinking in terms of a you mentioned the schools are having their budget meeting yeah I don't think they've set a date yet okay um the last I had heard was probably end of February beginning of March but I have I in fact I just looked on I was just looking at to see if there was anything posted on the

222calendar but there isn't anything I haven't heard of anything yet okay so um what is the the you're you're thinking on the rate increases for is it water what was the one that I need to yeah I need to sit down and how does that work into this kind of budget for the coming year or does it well it's a separate it's Enterprise fund so it it doesn't really impact the general fund so you're thinking of is that something by itself that there's no adjustments from General appropriation into those funds into those funds are into those exp accounts or exp using those funds to cover some other expenses well I think Rob's talking about using basically subsidizing the Enterprise funds with the general fund is that what you no no the other I was just

223so I think it was what yoland was saying so you were looking at various times moving things that are currently in general appropriation into these revolving funds so I was just wondering those are the big funds so is that part of the picture this year and is that driving this rate increase or is that something totally different no it's it's something totally it's more Capital expenses okay that would be that would be driving a rate increase what's the goal for your revolving funds in terms of how much you want to maintain how um in there those funds yeah we don't we don't really have a hard and fast rule Barb Durand always had one that that we kind of liked which was you don't spend more than what you took in the previous year it's

224always a good thing yeah Barbara Barbara you know had some had some concrete rules and that was as you know and that was one of them so um so that's but we don't have anything kind of like outlining that um is there any way that that um things that we've you're marked for arpa funds like is there any way that we could use arpa funds for something in the general fund and then be able to move some stuff around or is because I know arpa like there's there's some kind of like hard guidelines on how we use those arpa funds but I also know that there's they're they sunset in what 2026 MH so it's like use it or lose it and you know so not that it's going to be like a like the

225solution but if there's a Band-Aid where we might be able to move something from you know into the general funds you know use use arpa funds for something in the general I I don't know how it all works I'm not I am not Britney so yeah so it would be um so basically Revenue replacement is an allowable use um I do think that could come into play in this year it's interesting so and we would have to look at some of the projects that we had allocated arpa funds for and say well we just won't be able to do these projects or we won't be able to allocate as much arpa funds for them and so the revenue will have to come from some other place also we have the stabilization fund as well like

226if we got into a Rob bind where we needed like the rainy day fund we could potentially utilize some of that stabilization funds even though I know we don't want to do that but we've replaced it I think we'd have to look at our um policy Financial policies to determine if we wanted to do that yeah that's that's kind of like the break glass um an emergency type of type of thing you know I'm I'm you know we might have to do a big borrowing related to some water and sewer infrastructure costs so I I'm worried about our bond rating especially if we I'm worried about our bond rating just by some of the things that I'm talking about doing for this year you know without hitting the stabilization fund I mean how are they

227going to look at using arpa you know how are they going to look at using overlay Surplus I mean to them it's going to be one-time revenues um which is going to indicate a a structural deficit that we need to address what about um in terms of I'm not sure what numbers were used for the borrowing reled to the school um but because we got that additional $5 million that's going to work to our advantage obviously um so is there any savings there um that from what you had you know uh projected yeah we're still doing like a complete analysis on that Claudia but we were thinking we might have to do like one final borrowing for around $5 million to like finish everything up and clean everything up um that 5 million that we

228would get from the state would basically wash that and we wouldn't have to go out and borrow that so that's that would have a direct you know direct correlation with residents tax bills right but not to the general fund yeah right so so their taxes wouldn't have to go up again so so more to come yeah more to come I you know I wish I had better news on on this but um you know i i i i point out like the um you know where a tax bow lies within our surrounding communities and our expenditures per capita the expenditures per capita especially because it's like at the bottom um that just doesn't seem to resonate with folks I don't know why but um well I don't think they want to compare yeah and people

229are used to a level of service so you know it um I think I think comparing it to a level of service in Sherborne or or another Community it does like it doesn't it doesn't it you know it it's not real to them like what that means like so so Sherburn spends you know a ton more money per per household you know for per capita um what does that translate into as far as you know sidewalks and like it it you know some you know there just like well Sherburn has lots of money you know they should spend the money you know so I and I'm not justifying it I'm just saying it's not real to people this is even just the sherbons we're talking about when you talk about where we fall right and

230all these right yeah I mean c Katherine is always a good barometer for me just cuz she came from Medway and spent so much time there and I mean she can tell you the level of activity that we have here compared to there um you know one of the things Brandy I think I could probably do a better job of explaining in of is that the fact that you know in this region the importance of the comparison is that we're all competing for the same people um we're competing for the same Services you know we're getting asphalt from the same plants you know we're getting gas and and Diesel from the same places so like we're buying it from the same places it's the same cost for them and we might have been able to

231negotiate even a better rate to but it's you know our expenses are going to be very similar you know in some instances to what um to what other communities are spending and I mean I will put our service level against like hop Hopkinson true any day with you know a tax bill that's at least 50% higher or expenditures per capita I mean I just take a look at our downtown projects you know put that out in a place like Sherburn and it probably is not the best example because I mean they hardly yeah um they're different structure too it's rural kind of just man well yeah that's the way they've been able to stay rural is um but like they don't have trash service they don't have um water and sewer right depends on us

232yeah holl the very similar hollon uses us basically for their ALS provider volunteer fire department I think right yeah it's still call so how are their taxes and expenditures more so much more I know I know somebody in Ashland who was a volunteer firefighter for that mhm really okay it's wild in this day and age you know so so yeah more to come and that's that's all I yeah project up I got priority project and I've got very little since the last one um uh uh with Mendes since the last time we talked it did we are going to utilize uh somebody to help uh vertex is bringing somebody on to help with that inflation reduction act reimbursement oh good um which is going to be um you know Jeff Deo is anticipating a little

233over a million dollars um so that could be that's significant um upper Charles Trail you know we've submitted the mass work M Trails ran I keep on confusing the two um and I hope to have a meeting with Derek warus who owns the Enzo Parcels again pretty soon and kind of get an idea of what he's thinking downtown um there's um you see a lot of eversource trucks out recently so they're they're continuing to pull wires and remove wires and everything um so they're moving along we should should be putting those bids out um to do the building connection soon oh we haven't done that yet not yet no we wanted to make some adjustments and wanted to make sure they were right because I think one of the things that um I think one

234of the things that kind of delayed the um first phase of the downtown project the streetcape is that the bid docks left some to be desired I think so we're just making sure that we don't repeat that again so um and Jen do you have anything on Public Safety no so I would think Public Safety is wrapped up at this point right I mean the doors are in the the doors yeah that was it okay I will say just speaking of Public Safety um we did have this the recent Citizens Academy class there and it they were thrilled with the building they they all pretty much said about how a good use of taxpayer dollars speaking of the public safety building will we get a final accounting of what it actually cost and um you

235know the funding for that and stuff yeah we can put that together for sure that be good to see I think it would be good for the community to see to say okay this is what we said this is what it actually cost us um I think that'll be good to see greated so okay is that it Michael that's it great thank you so um board reports Claudia you want to start sure thank you um so uh I was just going to mention about the mindes building so they are starting to gear up for spring work and uh we had a meeting last week and uh getting everything on site to get the fields all squared away and finish up a few other things that really um were mostly dependent upon uh the weather um

236and then I had the pleasure of attending a meeting in the Box um run by Miss Kinsman and uh it was you know very enjoyable we had um you know several people they all had great ideas suggestions uh it was it was a very stimulating conversation I thought so I really enjoyed it and inspired me to uh host one myself did you not yet that's good good reminder what's the deadline for that again April 1st April 1st so really yeah okay y basically okay so uh so I intend to do that in in the month of March I appreciate that I thought that was a pretty interesting vote in Milton there about a week and a half maybe two weeks ago now um I think I heard today that the uh State pulled some money

237from them uh quite a bit already yeah yes oh yeah a big pulled from them so interesting and a few other things to watch that have been taken from them because they didn't support the MBTA communities yeah resoning I thought there was a deadline how could they I thought you had until X dat to do something yeah they um they passed their they may they vot they yeah I'm not sure yeah they they had a ballot question no meeting passed it I think and then they there was a group of citizens that put it had enough signatures to to put it on the ballot no yeah understand in their Charter I see what you're saying you I thought the state gave you a certain deadline yeah well except that they voted the community voted not

238dead over techically voted a different measure before the deadline that's all I'm saying well this is certainly incentive them for them to look at it again so anyways I thought that was interesting that was a good thing to bring up CL yeah so to that point just um I know that there's going to be another MBTA communities Forum coming up in a week or so is it next week 8th 29th 27th I just saw it today so so yeah I I think I don't I know it's kind of too early to tell what the ramifications of Milton is going to be because obviously you know I think my my gut instinct is that the Attorney General is going to make a um example an example an example out of them because and probably file file

239suit but I think you know I think that's going to be a big topic of conversation from residents about like you know could Ashen file a similar thing and stuff like that so I I do want to make sure like I don't know if it should be part of that Forum or something else but just kind of acknowledge what happened in Milton and um discuss possible ramifications for the community and I think my guess and I haven't I haven't watched the last one but um my guess is I know you know from what Joe had said he and Trisha and Peter and um Alvaro are really like looking to come up with a solution that has minimal impact to our community and residents and I just want to make sure like that you know that

240that's part of the communication as well because I I I think I think non-compliance while we can talk about it like is a kind of a drastic I don't know if we necessarily need to go in that direction right I mean I I think six months ago I remember I was one of the people going do we really have to do this based on what we're seeing and hearing they're going to make us do it so the sooner we do it and with as much public input as possible the better with this little impact with this little impact well I wouldn't I think it could be done with I think we already have a solution I'm I think a little different I think we had to actually look at some of those Parcels near the

241train station like the church and the burnhams and actually and other commercial properties there and actually look at zoning them um can I suggest we maybe put this on the agenda that's agenda our next meeting yeah either our next meeting or our second meeting in March yeah and I'm I'm not going to I'm not I'm not going to be at that Forum but if people can go next week I think it's going to be a useful thing but yes let's put it on yeah that's a good idea when's that when is The Forum next week it's Tuesday I believe is it Tuesday I have it on it's either Tuesday or Thursday day I don't I didn't put it on a calendar cuz both nights I'm busy so yeah I have it for Tuesday the the

242one they had a couple weeks ago did get recorded so you can go watch that Tuesday the 27th Jo I think I have the link somewhere yeah I think you sent it to old email okay yeah Tuesday the 27th I have my schedule so probably I think seven but anyway I think it's a good effort and you know and I think the good thing about it is we're finding it very doable however the details turn out so all right thank you was that Claudia or Claudia and then I Claudia you finished I'm glad you brought that up yeah um are you all good I'm good you're good okay um I just wanted to um thank the ABA and Beth Reynolds for an amazing ribbon cutting at Subzero um nitrogen uh ice cream this last Friday

243uh Claudia and I were there with Michael um and it was hugely well attended there was a lot of there were parents of kids that work there because the kids are in school so it was it was it was great uh representative LS was there rep a representative from from um Senate President spilka's office was there um and Lauren and Dan the new um owners of subzero are like thrilled to be you know they're new residents of Ashland and they are new business owners and new parents all kind of stuff all sorts of stuff and um I'm so glad that we were able to like help them out with our business incentive program and all that stuff because that's the that's the kind of stuff that we we want to bring to downtown asy so

244I just wanted to give kudos to the ABA and to Beth um for a great event um and um our comprehensive plan steering committee is going to be meeting on Thursday March 7th which is um off schedule off yeah off cycle we didn't have our meeting at the very end of um February February or well middle of February um so we'll be making we'll we prob two meetings in March yeah so we'll be talking about the you know all of our Outreach and all that stuff so um so mark your calendars for Thursday March 7th um for that and then the only other thing I know um at the high school winter sport s are winding down um I've seen lots of um really great um posts and things about some of our some of

245our winter athletes um I just wanted to give a shout out to members of our swim team and our wrestling team and um gymnastics and um indoor track we sent when I say we I'm my son's on indoor track so when I say weeds we sent um I think 16 members to to divisional stes for the first time ever like so it's like and I know the wrestling team had an amazing season an amazing state champions yeah I mean and I think this is really like number of men a number of young men were were on at the state level either within first second and third so yeah very cool and the women's wrestling I think this is really like I don't know if it's the first year I know I know Norah quit who's

246a senior this year has been part of the the wrestling program there and just kudos to her for yeah yeah for um you know built that program that's great so now there's there's female wrestlers which I think is just awesome so no such thing as a boy sport so I like that um so anyway I just wanted to give a shout out to all the the student athletes and um and wish those that are continuing on to the next round of all states good luck so that's it for me great uh so just tying on to the comprehensive plan not only are we meeting but you still have the opportunity please go to the website find and take the survey put your update on a crowd map attend a meeting in a box and then

247once you've attended if you're interested in doing one let us know and we can help you out with that tomorrow morning we have our Metro West Regional collaborative meeting via Zoom at 8 a.m. we have some projects that we're looking to fund one is continuation of our landline project and the landline project through mapc is working regionally to look at trails and how we connect the trails and look at different points where if a community is doing something how can we connect them to the other community so that's been so they're we're going to be looking work with hopkington on their lack of um unfortunately because hopkington is not part of our region is that interesting I mean they will will they will be included in the discussion and when we have our big Trails

248meetings they are certainly invited but a lot going on there yeah they have yeah Hopkinton has some issues that they're dealing with uh the last thing um I'm sorry I missed Subzero and I was all set on Friday to to say why I was missing it on Facebook but I couldn't do that until I got to New York City because we went to the city to surprise my daughter for her 30th birthday so I apologize I would have loved to have been there but um yeah yes oh family priorities yes and then just for fun if you're interested there's performances coming up at Hopkinson Center for the Arts uh Thursday the 29th and then the 1 and 2nd which is a Thursday uh Friday and Saturday and then the following weekend Friday and Saturday I'm

249stepping out on the stage as a performer for the first time in probably I don't know 20 years it's the show is called um songs for adults and the musical director takes songs from various musicals and he puts them all together in a certain order and they have all different kinds of themes but it's all things that adults are dealing with oh interesting are you singing dancing singing singing in movement there's no real dance but so it should be fun too wow yeah that's all I got all right thank you Yolanda uh just a um just a couple quick things one is um just a reminder February is Black History Month I thought that was you know an important thing to remember especially given our earlier discussion and uh did anyone I wasn't able to

250go to the ash United did an event I don't know if anyone else attended that did you guys oh good yeah do you want to just say anything about it or yeah I thought person we had was Kelly um trying to remember her her her last name but um she's a professor and she you know she talked a little bit about her you know experiences and and then dug a lot into um a lot of the experiences of of African-Americans like in the South and just you know some of their experiences um I thought it was really really good she was um for you guys for going she was U she was pretty Dynamic it lasted about an hour and just kudos to ashin is United for putting together another another great program great well

251thank j i yeah I know there just was some issues with people who were trying to get on there was like a registration um I do believe that they have a recording and they're hopeing going to share that that's cool the speaker was an author um and has podcast and and and allowed them to share that later for folks who couldn't make it so great thank you and my only other um thing I think the last minut I talked about the MBTA Fair reduction that I talked about so that's continuing and just a that's 200% you're eligible it's a 50% Fair reduction if you're 200% of the federal poverty level which for a single person as like 29,000 so I'm person and the T seems to be moving along to do this and the the

252governor did put some money in the budget whether it'll stay in the budget but I think it's actually going to happen which I think is a great thing so I'm I'm actually personally going to Lobby our legislators but I'm just trying to get gauge you folks what you you think if this is an important thing worth pushing with our legislators um basically in terms of Ashland so you're talking about half Fair Commuter Rail to Boston basically which from Ashland is what what is it uh currently it must be like $8 no it's more than that so so people these are service workers these are people lower income so if we think it's important to um you know help them with that um then I think it's a good good thing to pursue so just for

253you folks to think about if that's something we should if if the board wants to make a statement to our legislators to support that um just something to think about I'm I'm going to be talking to them personally myself that I think it's important but um you know we are kind of a commuter town so a lot of our commuters wouldn't be eligible but there is a significant amount of of lower income service workers that I think we want to support um and to use commuter rail I think benefits everybody you know as a as a whole so I think it's overall a good thing but I just wanted to put that out there um for consideration and kind of an update so I think that's going to actually happen um uh the T seems

254to be committed to it um and they've taken it on my understanding is they're trying to address the whole Free Fair like Boston was pushing and this is their answer to that so it's really um widespread among Subways and buses are really the significant amount but Community rail part of that too and I think that's you know an important part of it so it's true but I I you know I have to say that sometimes when I look at the continued problems right that the T faces and think about free well I mean it seems to me that they need to be trying to use money to fix their problems well that's going to be the next one yeah so I think their answer is like let's their answer is we're so awful we're going

255to give you free service but well they're not their answer is to reduce Fair 50% yeah no I know but I'm just you know just saying it's it's in some way I understand but the math yeah how do you balance that well 40 million from the go I think the governor's budget and then what's going to happen in coming years it's it's not as sustainable talk about not sustainable it's not sustainable it's going to need support from the state and you know other sources and that's the next big mystery or the the next big problem well I don't want to get into a can of worms but like how are they going to verify people's income oh like they're not they're they're not they're relying on other so that's self reporting no no they're relying

256on okay other people basically they're using Mass health and snap eligibility DTA so they've got these databases so someone who's interested they need to be on the database Goa okay that's that's it is work it seems workable okay that part of it okay all right well that's about all and I think with that we'll ask for a motion to adjourn to adjourn second all those in favor I I we are adjourned thank you all see you on March 6th March 6th yes trying to remember all the things we put on the agenda for March 6th are you keeping track of I think I think fortunately Susan is oh good thanks Mark I think I'm going to take this home actually try