Planning Board Meeting Thursday, November 30, 2023

001um welcome everyone to the planning board meeting of Thursday November 30th um a note a note that the meeting is being uh broadcast and recorded um calling the meeting to order at at 7:19 and the first item on our agenda is the clerk's report Kate we have received three public correspondents since the last plany board meeting are the are the microphones working it seems quiet to me Paul are the mics working let's see yeah that sounds just sounds better okay all right thanks Kate um next on the agenda uh is time for public comment Peter if anyone has public comment can you manage that sure sure currently uh currently at this time there's no public comment uh in the room or on the zoom platform all right being very efficient this evening Moving On We're

002on item four public hearings the first one on the agenda is 400 Cedar Street this is a special permit application for T-Mobile um cell phone tower um Peter can you give us an update on that sure so uh this past Monday uh I had a um a conference call with the applicant and our um consultant Greg Aldridge and we reviewed the structural engineering letter that was submitted we went through the Five Points uh there was no issues uh and the applicant structal engineer was going to go back make changes to the plan and then resubmit those just for final check and then we'll receive a letter from Greg Aldridge um you know the applicant in talking with myself and Greg thought it would be a little bit uh tight on timing to present a full

003plan and a full document um a full package I would say to this planning board tonight uh so therefore they requested a continuance to December 14th I fully expect on December 14th they're going to come back in with a fully um signed off um plan um from Greg Aldridge a sectual review and then at that point we'll have a decision to to look at and to vote on so basically everything there seems to be re resolved between the applicant and um Greg eldrich who's reviewing it it's just a matter of making sure that everything is documented in the drawings and um and then I think you had started or maybe had seen one first version of a of an approval document yes you have you have seen a a draft and so that has been

004the approval document has been put together at this point so do we anticipate any changes in that draft from these discussions no at this point there'll be I have no changes except any updates to any material that I receive into our final letter from Greg alridge that will be added into the documents of record okay then I would just ask maybe we can just resend it out um to the planning board so that we can all review it before the 14th um so that we have any whatever conditions or anything else we want to put in there making the assumption that everything else is going to come through all the t's cross all the eyes dotted and and that maybe we'd be able to maybe we'll be able to wrap that up um I do

005want to say did there was a letter that came into a consultant and it had Kate's name on it I think did everyone get that did I thought it came to the planning board so it came to the planning board I believe and it was addressed to Kate so I did have a conversation with the consultant and sorry for digging through my um slew of that I apologize I have it it was underneath everything yes so there was a letter and it was submitted by ebi Consulting and it was subject to invitation for comments on the cell tower now I ended up having I I I called the the applicant at Adam brilley the attorney who's who's been working with us and I kind of just said hey what is this you know cuz I've

006seen him before and I think I've seen them for a different other cell towers and this comes from uh uh it's called a a nipy report Nea and it's from the section 6 uh 106 of the national the National Historical preservation act and so with this uh any any project that has to be submitted through the FCC for licensing they have to do a Nifty report and so this is just a process that all telecommunication Towers have to do and this is almost a just a procedure a procedural application in a letter that they have to send to us it was addressed to Kate because she's the clerk um however uh it is just an element of their process in licensing through the FCC it was mentioned to me from Adam that during relocation and

007this is considered a relocation project because they're moving moving the the antennas from the top of the tank to the side of the tank this is the element that has to be looked at and submitted to the FCC for for for for review um and so it's not always done when you're just taking an antenna down and putting a new antenna up using the same brackets same locations but with a relocation this is triggered and it's looked at and it's going to be submitted to the FCC and it's just quick question so what is the objective of that is that is is to verify that is not on the roof of a historical building or what is the objective so a couple things uh and I'm just going to read from I Googled section 106

008nipy report right and it and it was and it's linked to a law that was passed in 1970s and it's a fedal and it's a requires federal agencies to access whether the major federal action has potential to significant effects of human environment uh prior to making a decision and it says the agencies evaluate environmental in related to social and economic effects of their proposed actions and so I don't know how this affects actual cell towers you know there's been towers and antenas on this water tank for a number of years you know the the there's already been a 20-year lease that has expired so I know for at least last 20 years leading up to today from 2003 onwards we're going to have antennas on that Tower so I think from my standpoint well I've

009collected with a conversation with Adam brilley this is procedural element that they have to do that that that the applicant has to do with um the FCC and telecommunication tows other than that I don't know what else the government is looking at regarding this and procedure and is that because the tank is old like and so it triggers a historic because they don't know maybe it's a I think that's one of the elements yes it is a historic tank and and it's a licensing it's a change in licensing especially with the relocation that's what I've been able to collect so I've seen these before I haven't really questioned them too much um the applicants kind of you know when I started looking at it I I think it's really just kind of a check the

010box type of procedure that they have to do with the FCC licensing I don't remember seeing one before when because we've dealt with other things on this tank right and I don't remember seeing one before so I assume it must be the move we did have one there was another um oil uh I mean water tower I forget the address but I went by and looked at and took pictures cuz I we did get one of those and one of those same kind of letters I don't remember that one it was like early on though I don't yeah it was like kind of that whole investigation about historic and does this belong here okay I don't know if anyone did anything with with it but we did get one did everyone get that letter I

011don't remember who it went to I I I thought it went to the planning board but it was just today I think it was yesterday I have a paper copy right here anybody wants to look at it you pass it down any other questions I mean obviously they're not even really on our agenda tonight I just wanted to mention that because I came in our it came to the planning board do you have any questions no okay I make a motion to continue the 400 Cedar Street special permit applicant T-Mobile Northeast LLC to December 14 2023 planning board meeting I'll second that and before we take a vote this this has already the deadline on this has already been moved to December something 15th or the day I think I thought we moved it to

012the day after our meeting I believe yes so that's something we want to I guess with any continuance that date gets automatically push that de it's going to get automatically pushed out and I've had a very good working relationship with the attorney so okay I I don't for seee any issues all right and we'll go ahead with a roll call vote Anna tuski I Marcel I Katherine Jersey KY and Trisha Kendall ey so that is continued um I do have a comment so it wasn't about the continuance but we one point when it was like the 15th we a little bit put oursel in the bind about like signatures and like if there are changes to that decision so I think we definitely want to ask for an extension to the app do we have

013to take a vote for that that or anything um I mean I'm a big advocate of not making it the 15th if we're having a meeting on the 14th I think we made it the 15th last time oh I understand but now that it's moved to the 14th oh I don't think we want to put ourselves in a bind to say I have to button it up get the entire decision correct and get all the signatures by the 15th what date would you propose I mean I I think we need a a few days right and and uh I assume there's going to I'm not sure we're going to get the decision like the timing with new drawings and the dates change and all ready to sign that evening I guess is what I think

014that's just looking at dates um entirely possible can we see about moving it a week later to the 21st do have some time for if like Peter needs to make changes edits and then we need to sign I mean I agree I would rather have it that evening but I don't like to no I see what you're saying so um can you just check into that Peter I'll email Adam tomorrow it's not a big deal so that we just have time like said if we need to make make just to make sure it's buttoned up I guess MH okay right all right then next on our list is uh 9 to 49 Homer AV um Peter do you want to see who's on for today and yeah so tonight give us an update sure so

015obviously we've haven't seen this project in the last two meetings however uh kind of a lots happened a little bit behind the scenes First of and foremost in your packets uh you're going to see a gcg review letter um furthermore sharing with your next or neighbor will be a full uh 18 um 11 by8 printout of The Proposal um that was submitted by the application team and furthermore you will see a memorandum uh submitted by the attorney Mr Terry Terry uh Morris uh which is a response to the uh DCR report number three uh with planning board comments uh put in by uh Trisha in Marcelo with that said tonight on the meeting I do see the application team of Terry Morris Rick alvo Ron Bor and I apologize um if if I'm missing a

016a team member um however uh that's what I can State I think um you know that the the letter from GC G uh was the was a big thing that we were looking for and obviously leading after the the our last meeting where we kind of discussed this element we were talking about the colors and the color pets and we asked for a warm and a cool tone um and that's what we kind of have here tonight uh in front of us I think we are looking to confirm the color selection um from the applicant um but but at that point that is the full update I can give and and I would like to turn it over to the applicant uh thank you madam chair for the record my name is Terry moris I'm

017an attorney representing the petitioner here this evening and as uh Peter matak has explained the two members of my team Ron book our project architect and Rick Salvo our project engineer on screen with me if I might with your permission um share the screen I think it I could we could use the uh DRC uh memo number three uh for which I prepared a response to the most recent markup done by you madam chair and uh Mr Arona uh as a template for proceeding uh to deal with the issues in some sort of order I think that's useful because um many many of the answers that would be uh supplied that I supplied in the narrative will actually be Illustrated when Mr bour presents his most recent set of plans so if I could share

018this mean that would be appreciated Peter do you want to can he share his screen dis okay let's see here we go uh this is the um this is the memo in question design Review Committee report number three uh um we responded only to those markups that as I said were done by the chair the first such item appears on on the second page actually and it is uh 1 A3 um uh massing and scale um we have we did we have expanded the plazas at the building recesses to provide flexibility for the use of the undefined tenants and the community uh as we had explained previously the site Furniture can be more easily relocated as needed without reconfiguring the permanent landscape in the future um then the next item that had a comment in

019green was uh was the item 1-b do1 and that is uh uh request that we present two materials which we will be doing once I turn the screen over to um to our architect Mr bour will present those materials um item one 3 B1 which is uh as shown on the screen now um the issue there was uh a a making the uh Central white poter and black Aluma storefronts to be copied on all the storefront Brays with the brick material Accent on um on the rear ground floor we have accomplished that uh as we'll be see seen again when Mr bour presents the plans the next comment was under C item C sustainability and that was item c 1 C2 uh uh there was an obvious comment we must meet or exceed the current

020stretch energy code which of course that will be done uh when we file a building permit application there was a notation here that the fire department requested no EV GES be in the underground or covered parking and the planning board was to review possible solar panel locations we are prepared to present that as well I will provide you additional information however um you will you will find that the situation there was a question about the number of uh spaces that would be serviced service spaces that would be serviced by EV stations we have located the stations in three different places so that they um would allow for the installation of 11 charging stations that would C be capable of servicing 22 of the 24 surface spaces uh the next item was under uh d uh

0212d3 historic herit Heritage and historic details item 2d3 and we scroll down to that bring that up and that is 2d3 I got ahead of I so here we are um there was a question about an interpretive historic mural ass signage that would tie the park to the history of the train station our response to that is that we are prepared to engage the historical Commission on just how an interpretive historic mural or signage on the existing stucco wall of the commercial building at 15 Homer could tie the pocket park to the history of the train station and we will be exploring that when we uh go before the historic commission uh for the removal of the uh two buildings of the buildings on the site um the next items have to deal with Landscaping

022uh and under Landscaping item F involved uh item F1 F3 FG let's see uh there was a recommendation that we provide an environment impact study uh and that that be conducted on the site our response to that was to submit a document that was actually a risk management review document um which I can also bring up on the screen um I'm going to switch the share now share screen rest minute Rie document memo be with me uh PL board well apparently you don't have that read readily available so I'll come back to the report but what I will point out in that document that was submitted to um the document that was submitted was a a risk assessment analysis it was the telling feature of this document was that it was required by the NM

023bank which is the is the lender uh financing the uh this project um the report that was um commissioned by the bank uh examined although it does not meet the standard of a typical phase one study nonetheless they did look at critical factors uh on the site the the report um uh states that the Ed environmental screens did not identify any regulatory listings for the site however there was a number of regulatory listings that were identified at off-site properties situated in close proximity to the site these included several buding Andor nearby auto repair shops and a gasoline station at 15 Alden 29 Alden and 61 Homer the report goes on to say that none of those are expected to impact the site based on the nature of the listings found the response actions completed at

024these properties and or the anticipated groundwater flow Direction the report goes on to talk about the buildings that were actually constructed on the site between the 1800s and 1960 and the uses that were to which those buildings were put in every case they were either residential or commercial retail uh purposes including a three-car storage garage uh the report states that the buildings are were are heated by were heated or are heated by either natural gas or fuel oil that was stored above ground there were no known underground storage tanks or USS on the site past or present um uh finally the the author says that there's there's no uh indication of any high-risk businesses ever being located on the site in the past for example uh such as a dry cleaner or of any fill

025being brought to the site that could be of a contaminated nature um and then it also noted uh you uh looking at the 1937 sandboard Atlas try to get some greater history of the site that the site was improved with SE at that time was improved with several buildings that were used as residential dwellings and Commercial storefronts again uses that in no way indicated the potential for uh hazardous conditions so as a result of the um uh assessment and research undertaken the conclusion was based on the P the information presented the environmental risk post to the bank who was a lender as I said of the project in its role as a secured lender is is low and the recommendation there was no recommendation of further assessment of the site at this time so that

026was the documentation that as you said uh was presented to the bank before they basically engaged as being the lender for this project and that is what was available to us and we've shared that with the board um back to the uh DRC uh report number three um the next item um was that an item 1g1 um uh peras at the rear seem out of place and too small benches located at the sidewalk should be may maybe be under the pergas the space is not quite usable our response to this was that the relocated site exit includes the ability to provide adequate outdoor seating due to the higher volume of traffic in lie of a lawn we are proposing a larger landscape bed with shrub massings which will which will be shown on the uh

027landscape plan when presented uh later on next item ig2 question the materials of pavers at the pocket park um uh our response was that those Pavers at the parket park will be the same as the other hardscapes along Homer within the building recess uh the next item was item I one it I 1 G4 and that comment was um talking about The Hardscape uh materials uh being used and we have commented that the site Hardscape to use material we will use materials that are consistent with the Main Street renovation project brick pavers will act as an edge and transition uh material similar to the downtown an additional material of gray ashless stone we feel is appropriate to sensitively sensitively relate to the historic train station and the gry ashler pattern may be used as the

028primary field material within the plaza areas and building recesses that brings us down to the landscape first comment was at item5 that comment was uh hard and soft Landscaping to reviewed by the DRC um we note that we will show that we have added two additional trees along the west property line which are to match the trees on the south property line going to item 2 H1 uh that was a question about the critical root zones um uh for the for the plantings our comment is that we would be critical root zones will be added to the erosion control drawing and also tree protection in both the landscape and civil drawing sets as well um this item we expect to be included as a condition in any order uh uh prepared by or presented to

029the planning board for final written decision uh item 2h2 uh talks about the the pocket box uh the idea was to create a consistent streetcape the we have agreed to add a tree at all of the inset Plaza entrances centered and increase the permeability of the pavers or grading surrounding these landlock trees for optimal growth uh item 381 again dealing with the pocket par uh it's we've agreed to add uh as part of our effort there to make everything is consistent add in another particular species of tree of batula so that all of the plaza Parks across the front of the building are present a a unified uh uh unified U presentation similar peral Paving is to be used to accommodate the landlock trees uh uh at for the front of the building and lastly

030uh the last comment is under uh item L and that is pedest which is identified as pedestrian access and bicycle accessibility item 1.2 uh maybe I have it I might have l1.2 bicycle racks public bike racks have been moved to the edge of the sidewalk with easy access from the right of way and they are they will be shown to be screened with planter boxes from the functional area of the plaza spaces uh this concludes our uh response to the to the uh DRC report number three and now I think it's probably useful if I turn the microphone over to or the screen screen over to our project architect so he may further illustrate um the some of the conditions that I've already outlined in this presentation thank you just a just a couple questions

031and maybe just the things that aren't on the list um before we do that and also if there's any planning board questions I noticed that in item that that the list goes from D to F and that e is missing and E had to do with um signage um on the site and the the design Review Committee notes Here um and I I don't think we got to talking about this last time that they were looking to I I think they were saying that the sign and maybe we can talk about this in the image the sign the signage location as indicated is acceptable but we were also they had also talked about fonts and colors of signage to be deferred and reviewed prior to occupancy so I want to make sure as Deepa knows

032in in the past we've kind of tried to stop deferring um because it comes back that you have to deal with it later on the other hand I'm not sure I'm not sure maybe we'd be ready to confirm signage and it also sounds like it says signage guideline study is underway and so I assume that means the design Review Committee is maybe during this quieter period is starting to really study um signage which they had always intended to do and so I just wanted to throw that out there for the board how we want to address that when when we get to that place so it's not necessarily a question for the team right now unless you have thoughts on that the other thing I wanted to note that was under item I think under

033L for some reason um was that there was a comment about the pergola at the pocket park next to the existing building and that pergola has been removed is that right to allow more room for Green Space there's not a correct r that correct Ron Ron um across from the train station no the pergola has not been removed it was it was really a cover for the seating on the other end of the site where the um where the where the um the roadway leads to bden street that has been removed okay so that's something we can trying to see where I'm trying to see where I read that now so I was just going to comment on your point about signage and whether we want to take that under our purview it seems related

034to the condition that's um offered by the applicant on the signage or mural on the stco wall on the of the commercial building and the suggestion that that being something that's a component of historical Commission opining on that assuming that we agree that that's the proper entity maybe the signage up front should be similarly situated into the same category all together so that there's some consistency between the input that we receive from the historic commission if we agree that that's the right entity about one area and the other together they seem interrelated to me yeah I guess uh my my question is whether we yeah do we do we take that on or do we if if we decide not to take it on I think there's some I believe it's appropriate for us to

035take it on if we as a board are prepared in other words why wouldn't we if we're talking about color warm cold why wouldn't we also talk about sign right and how that fits into the building um but what I'm saying what I'm suggesting is if we feel like delegating the task it seems like extremely related and would be well paired with the mural task any other comments I'm I don't not sure how to handle it at this point or I I see it a little differently I I think if if there is one item that is worth deferring to some other studies this one I I I remember talking to the design Review Committee at one time in one of our meetings about it and they express the interest in um um creating some

036standard for the downtown just like they did with historical signs that they that were installed around and uh I remember somebody in the design Review Committee was I think a graphic designer was interested uh hanstein I yeah and uh and we said then and I still believe it's the case that that that that is a a well worth Endeavor and and I wish that had been like completed by now before we see other projects in in in in downtown I think that this could be easily resolved by putting a condition that that um um forces the the applicant to use whatever standard has been reached at when they uh before uh the the occupancy pyramid because we don't we don't have the the standard created mhm nobody unless they are working on it have been

037working on it so we probably need to find out and and that standard should they if if they are doing that I think they should do it in concert with the historical commission and that's where that these two groups can definitely come up with a font and materials or whatever is appropriate and then we apply to every project that so that Anna's comment gets integrated into that because it's really about signage around Ashland not just signage for this project and that yeah that in that way is is not just the historical commission but the the design Review Committee with the historical commission coming with a standard for what is appropriate within the historical district which typically in every town it's it's it makes sense that there's a different character materiality and and so the only

038the only challenge is there has not been as far as I know a definitive definition of the historic area in Ashland yet formally right so that may take some time it may be part of the comprehensive plan etc etc so I feel like we need to at least give design review some guidance hey design review whatever you're doing we like it keep doing it please prioritize downtown prioritize this building relative to downtown come up with something that applies to this building that may be useful to downtown that can be lead or integrated into the historic district um but I feel like we need to give them some push and focus so that we don't lose sight of the fact that we need an immediate answer now that applies to this project I think what you

039just said makes total sense to me the direction should be I mean from from it should be deductive the downtown should be primary because applies it should that there should be a logic to it that gets applied to everything but this project will be the first one to implement it so we have the urgency and I agree with Anna maybe we need a a direct request the ciew committee and historical commission can you please help us develop this standard maybe um Peter maybe we can draft up a really simple memo to the design Review Committee as we've kind of done before on other things just about this project about it relating to signage and and kind of putting that they've already indicated that they assumed it would be coming back to them but the you

040know what to look the thing we talked about what to look at about certain urgency you know with it to to make sure it make sure it happens I think from what I'm reading here is the only thing that's in question is the font style because the lighting has been approved as is as shown in the rendering so it's the literally the font and the color it's probably I mean the scope of that signage in this particular project is probably metal kind of a thing I don't know if whatever that material is it's not it's it's not it doesn't feel like it's a huge lift it feels like it's a it's a matter of just choosing a font style for those because they have the location indicated they have the lighting approved it's just literally

041the font that we're talking about as signage element in this project so does that sound like um does that sound like a a good idea to kind of create the memo and we can send it out to the planning board just I assume it'll be very very simple memo but just so they have something in writing about um that this is kind of you know in their court and we're looking forward to seeing what they what they come up with so okay um unless there's other comments I'll turn it back to so are we taking comments on the design review report number three and the applicant response is that what we're on still cuz I do have a comment but I can wait if yes we're still on the design review comments but we were

042now going to look at it in context with the colors and images but if you have something yeah so the um the 1 F3 uh I think that was um 1 F3 about the impact study so I I feel like that um first of all it says review with gcg and I recall that we had Loosely talked and that there are some concerns about um a underground parking garage they get built all over the world right this isn't something new it's new to Ashlin but it's not the simplest of construction either so my interpretation of that was and I we have a Civil Division at my company I talked to him and there there are some concerns of like settlement of adjacent structures dealing with the water table and construction like there's some pretty particular

043things and done wrong it actually could have issues with adjacent structures so I my take of that was about that kind of environmental impact but along so two comments related that says planning Board review with gcg and there's a couple other in here that says planning Board review with gcg and I'm not sure if that did happen yet or how how that's in the works yeah I think mostly what we to clarify most of what we were doing right now is going through the design review component of of these things things having to do really I think more design but you're right there's a whole bunch of things that say rever you know go to gcg but in the gcg report I have a whole bunch of circles on mine of unresolved issues issues right

044so I think it folds back into those and yeah we'll have to kind of cross check you know kind of those some of some of those issues um so I think we're focusing a little bit on design right now but I agree with you there's there's a lot of things with the parking garage and Heights and stuff that don't seem to be resolved so so I think we and also I think if I'm correct me if I'm wrong none of the stuff we received this evening sort of we sent a memo I think it got sent to the applicant about our sort of list of open issues and I didn't see I think we didn't get kind of a response about that like most of those are still open from the current stuff that was

045presented for tonight right the um I have those open issues somewhere in my pile here oh thanks I checked off mine though yours aren't checked off so there there are some in here and I'll find it in my pile um and we can go through that as well when we finish looking at the slides but I think some of them are that we some of them we have gotten responses back from like the fire chief and from some different things and other ones we haven't right yeah okay I just I we have we have another document which I think was produced by um Peter match's office to the board uh dated November 1st we can bring that up on the screen if you want to use that as a template you we can um I

046I want I was merely commenting I believe one of what was presented about the environmental impact was per quite likely not what was intended but it had gcg and my only other comment is anything in here that said talk to gcg to please make sure it doesn't get missed that's I'm I'm good otherwise yeah yeah I I I agree um yeah and I think um Mr Morris I think that that the November 1st is the date on that memorandum that is just the list of our of our ongoing issues so um and maybe that's something gcg uh if if they haven't commented specifically about it or reviewed it specifically in their review yeah yeah I um I made a note here on my that that's a question that can go back to them is that

047all is this already accommodated in what you're looking at or is this something you hadn't considered I assume it's always been in their minds because they're they seem to be pretty thorough but but it's good to it would be good to know it explicitly so so you're saying gcg has already already seen the Environmental Studies as presented by the bank's environmental study okay so and Kate is saying that there may be some questions beyond that the design Review Committee was thinking about it in a little different way and that's maybe what we want to ask gcg because that environmental impact study can can mean a lot of different I could Define that a lot of different ways right so um okay so little delay but we're I think we're back to um the the presentation

048if you wanted to continue on Ron yes Ron do you want to present the architectural drawings so what I'd like to do is to start with um instead of running through the entire presentation with all the renderings just make note that all the renderings have been updated to reflect these materials um this sheet in your booklet is actually slightly different and I I I apologize I picked it up yesterday that it hadn't been updated to show this material which is what the rest of the model shows um so I'm going to I'll I'll send this out to uh Peter so that you can have a for record an accurate set but essentially what what this is is these are the uh colors that were noted in the materials and texture uh B uh 1B do1

049and I've noted um you know what they are um so essentially it's consistent with the rest of the model so that said um I'd like to go to the issue we had or the or the comments on the entry plazas and as um as Terry noted um we've updated the model in the plans to show that additional tree so that there's some consistency in the entrances uh we've taken we've added bike racks to the uh fronts so they're directly accessed from the sidewalk and then you can access into the plazas from there um where we have tables that could be interchangeable with the uh location on the right as well depending on who the tenants are so there's a little bit of flex space there and the brick material that's shown at the sidewalks uh

050is consistent with the material being used in the downtown so that becomes our sort of our linkage to the downtown um work that's being done and on the plan you can see that we've added the uh planter boxes as Terry mentioned flanking the the bike racks um as well as uh recess the benches into the landscape a little more and that that was primarily uh the comments that were made uh regarding that that section of work and there's two a couple of other issues one was if you look at the lower left image um that was brick at one time in an earlier version and it was suggested that that would be more appropriate to have the similar storefront as the uh as the other Bays uh so we've updated that as well as updating

051the model as I mentioned for the um for the landscape so that was the uh the scope uh from our last discussion uh now I'd like to just backtrack somewhat to discuss a few of the items that were uh that were discussed um regarding the the train station and the parket park so um this is this has been around for a while we've talked about it and and explained our materiality and then the the um the idea of a mural along this wall this face of the wall uh came up and as I was thinking about it um the the pergola that's here really makes this a three-dimensional mural because essentially you'll have a historic look similar to the train station with the backdrop of whatever historic um uh mural wants to be put there

052so it kind of gives you a unique perspective on that mural where you're actually inserting it into what could be a very similar typology to what's what's the train station is across the street so um I know that there's a discussion about removing it but I'd like I'd like you to consider that because I think it's um it could become a unique feature to this site I do like the idea of the mural I think it's um it's in a good location and I think that it will be very telling to um you know the relationship to the train station but I think we can add another element to that as well so as far as the Landscaping uh we Revis the Landscaping from the comments that were made uh during our last design review

053meeting and unfortunately Julian can't be here um but you know the um the the plant types and the um and the species and everything are consistent with what was what was uh what that discussion was about so um I I really this this is my discipline so it's very difficult for me to talk about you know what exactly these plants are and you know what they like and things like that so I apologize for that but it is consistent with the discussion that we had uh with the landscape people and then I'd like to just go back and a really quick overview of because the color scheme does uh you know create a different look to the building um so we do have the you know the lighter recesses um we have the the the

054colors for the uh shingle and and uh roofing material which is a Driftwood um the the shakes are the gray slate and there's a gray to the uh to the siding as well uh the brick as I mentioned will be similar to what is happening in the downtown area you can see consistency here Ron can you just repeat those colors real quick yeah I'm just I I thought I was looking at the um at the materials that were written down so if we look at the cool and the warm we're looking to compare the cool and the warm so I have another slide that I have to uh share from a different screen that has the the um uh the other color palette on it so I'm just going to unshare this and share that

055other slide this one this one no night night green that's the roof that's roof samples yeah the night gray is The Dark One right so this was um this was the other color palette which were more of the cream colors I don't if you wanta and this is the pallet that we're looking at now in the model and I think we agreed that this this pallet was more appropriate quick uh Ron can you repeat what you just said said I mean the the you're showing us the different option which one you as the designer which one would would you prefer to go with I would prefer to go with the uh what we what we're showing in the current package so that's page four just so we're on the same so you're talk yeah you

056can see my screen right so we're so that's page four of your five page document that's correct right and is that considered the cool or the warm this is the cool that's the co the cool and so page five is the warm page five is the warm I I think you know what we were hoping for and I appreciate the two schemes but what we were hoping for and I I think requested was that the colors are put together like on a they're put together for us not for us to be have to sort through the different colors you know that typically you know old school they're attached to a board they have a sample of the roof color not just in a little booklet but a a few shingles that are are laid next

057to those colors um and so that you can and the brick like you know we have the brick samples behind us but they don't seem to match the more orangey brick that's shown here I I think the brick was intended to match the red of the new sidewalks right I I believe so it would be an understand of what that brick was in the sidewalk and if if really if we have a red that's similar to the red in in the sidewalk so and that you're really looking at at it then and it's it's kind of it's It's kind of old school but I'm sure you've seen the seen color boards like that material boards that you that you just then can look at it all at all together instead of having to assemble it

058in your head so we may be able to get to some kind of Direction here but I still would want to see those color samples all in one place and like a you know before making a a final decision it's very hard to take a few square inches and put it with colors usually Driftwood is kind of a little warm and would be pairing it with a cool it might be fine but that that's my comment on that it's just it's not making our job easy to have all these materials in these little pieces I I'm just going to add I Think It's tricky because obviously it we understand I you know I was thinking about this like when the applicant is remote speaker speak up please sorry this is Anna speaking you know one

059of the challenges for me is I'm seeing kind of samples here and we're kind of guessing like you know the planning board is sort of like o is it this picture you know does it is it that one maybe having the Apple can be in the room with us to actually look at this together with the architect so that we can actually not use our imagination I think that would be really helpful I I just don't think we're speaking the same language because you guys are virtual we're in person we've got some samples but not what we expected and I I'm having a hard time imagining it and trusting it like am I actually imagining what it is or the color that happens to be in the printer that the printer created because I've I've

060printed things before in color for my daughter's school projects and they don't turn out the way they're supposed to so I I just want to make sure that I'm not trusting a printer yeah and and that's and that's a fair point I mean that's why that's why I'm talking about um that this is very old school right which and if you're not in the design Fields is what we used to call a color board or materials board where these samples and you might have a few samples of trim you might have you know samples of whatever you're going to use would actually be attached to a physical board and that would be one palette right so that you could look at the board and you could see all the colors next to to each other

061you wouldn't be looking at a little square of the roofing in a thing you would get a roofing sample from the company and you would put those on the board and so you get a really good picture of how those colors work together and overlap with each other um all of us have seen it right and and it just makes that job of you don't have to imagine the colors and this is before the day of the color printer right that was way too expensive so um but but it's still the best way because they are the actual colors they're the actual materials that are going on the building um so and that's what I do think it it's still incomplete for this for that level of decision and just to be clear like I'm

062looking at what the warm is on our table and looking at what the warm is behind us and unless I'm color blind they seem very different I think that's part of the confusion because if I look at what's printed here in front of me what's on this screen and then what's on that screen it's the same thing but they all look vastly different to me and none of them versus what's on the table like what's on the table actually does not seem as warm is what's behind me on the screen if we're talking about warmth in the same way yeah I think that's true there's kind of an orangey EX on the screen which I really don't like but that worm on the table isn't too bad yeah it's toned down so I'm just like

063o I kind of like that but if that's what it's going to look like no way so do you know what I mean like so I don't I'm having a hard time not to be like I don't want to be I want to be flexible but I feel like we need to get into the same room with the architect and actually understand what is this actually going to look like like can we trust what's on the table but you guys are not even here to look at what's on the table do you know what I mean sure okay so we go all school we we we we provide uh two color boards one warm and one cool and because I I mean in my mind I and I I understand what you're saying about the

064image on your wall because your projection system is different than a computer screen it's you know it's it's the color it's just it'll come out different um but I think the the value of the models and being able to put the materials on um versus you know simply looking at a color board U definitely has its as benefits as well if the colors are accurate and these colors that I put on here I you know they're they're the formula right they're the RGB colors from the paint samples the paint chips from Benjamin Moore whoever so um I guess it's it's maybe it's a combination of the two but um if we if we need to do color you know we need to do the panel boards and come in with them then that's what we'll

065do um I mean I think it's either that or and again I'm not sure I mean we want to do this or it's doing a mockup at the site where it's built in place and then the decision is made at that time where all the materials are mocked up um that's a common way of doing it too so that you can see them on the site at the location at the time before any actual materials are decid or any actual colors for those materials are decided but it has to be the material because even if you're using the exact paint sample um our monitor here can be skewed toward the Reds are skewed toward the blues right it's yeah it's you know it's just part of the technology I mean I have to say the

066warm appeals to me the warm that's on the table but looking at printed material or the two screens I like the cooler much better so like I'm confused um and I do think it's beneficial to look at the warm and the cool standing there so I can see the benefit of that as well and I think what we're seeing here I think thanks to Trisha she tried to put something together with the because we probably didn't have all the names here but a lot of materials are missing in that like obviously your pavers and that brick has a strong definition even on that elevation so I think we should it doesn't even have to be a board as long as the two palettes are properly put together so that we can look at all the

067materials because there's so much going on in this 15 ft distance this lot of materials happening different textures happening so I think it has to be at least put together as one complete palette versus the other versus seeing bits and pieces of the two samples because like you said that actual brick sample P sample is so different than what you are showing as rendering there that is really dark versus what you have on your rendering so I don't know if you have seen those samples but I it's it's a good idea to put the two pettes together and then your suggestion of doing it on site is great but I think we should narrow it down yeah because we've had challenges with having something go up when we are not ready for it so I

068think we should have something narrow down it's great to look at it during daylight versus looking at it this warm light I think that's also playing a lot of role in what we seeing here so if it means we are at the site with two cool palette and warm palet and look at it there for 10 minutes and disperse that might be a way to go yeah I think you're right it doesn't have to be nailed to a board those get very heavy but uh but it has to be easily and it'll help to move things around especially the roof colors are pretty strong so so does anyone have any any comments about color knowing that we are you leaning one way or another any comments any other information to give the applicant while they

069put these things together no I I I was just going to go where where Deepa went and and I think the problem of making these type of evaluations um at night under this light is the wrong way to go about it I I think having a board would be helpful or a tray I mean we we do it on trays as well uh but bringing it out to the sun is very important because you're never going to get the right color under this light so I think it has to be brought during daylight left here on some sort of board and tray for for us to swing by and maybe have an a quick review with the presence of one of the of the architect or somebody on the team and see it outside yeah

070and and um you know as far as the roofing color you know you can get the you know the pallets that they're all one roof color it has a handle you can take it with you you know and you can get several of those one in Driftwood which I think is a bit warm but there could be other samples as well that that you can really look at them with these colors instead of the you just can't tell with those with the small samples you know yeah and what's catching my attention is I don't know if the intention of that glass is really to be that blue that you're seeing here or is it low iron glass I'm not sure what that is so having that sample also will help I don't think you are

071intending to have blue glass there because some of the rendering is showing as if they have a color tint to it so I I think you should get all all the samples in that elevation because there's too much going on the only other question about color and it's only it's related to color but not to the samples um but I wanted to make a note of it when I was looking through the through the other elevations and maybe this just hasn't been updated yet but we keep looking at this front elevation but then you look at the back elevations and are they still all all one color like is that the I I I think on the ones I saw like the the black elevations Once you turn the corner everything was just beige and

072um we're going to want to see all the elevations I'm not sure we're looking for I mean I think I think Hardy plank is the same color no or it's the same price no matter what color you buy I believe and so I I think it's important to understand if this is just pretty on the front and gets neglected on the back maybe it just hasn't been updated or where the transition is if as intentional or it could be simplified on the back you know maybe it's not as you know maybe it's not as complex the pet but it seems it seemed to be such a it seemed to be a dramatic difference when I was looking at it Madam chair yes um I know the comment was made in passing but uh there was

073a suggestion that this project could be handled in the way many uh projects are handled and that is at that point in time when the building is up but before the the materials are chosen that you actually have uh models on site with the brick with the clab and you have them on site you make that decision at the time of construction rather than going through at this time I mean at least you're guaranteed that whatever CH colors you choose at that point in the process will be exactly what you want um I think there's a there are a number of issues which you have identified Madam shair as saying with the gcg report and other things that I think perhaps we could spend more time doing that than going round and around about colors

074when we know the colors can be handled at some later point in the process yeah I understand it's just that um and that's why Deepa said that maybe we need something um we need something to put in there and then can look at it again later because we did have a recent example uh when Deepa and I were on the board maybe Marcelo maybe was I don't you weren't there um where where we waited and the wrong colors were put up so um and it was supposed to be verified by the planning board first the wrong colors were put up and it just turned into a a mess um and so we would rather not be in that position again and thus I think we're probably favoring making a decision that we're pretty sure of

075at this point or that we could be pretty sure of at this point rather than um kicking it down the road where things do happen and have so so I I don't think necessarily we need to do that for the for the 14th in two weeks if it if if that's not on your agenda to get that together um but uh but I think it be before the end I think we do need to see that [Music] um is there anything else on the is there anything else on the renderings that you wanted to review tonight I think there are a few other things we can go to relative to our the status of our checklist oh Marcel ju just a question um both the attorney and the architect describe some of the changes that

076were done to the landscape or you know being responsive to what we asked um is everybody um comfortable with with those changes I want to make sure that um the changes the changes were made in response to to to comment um and if we if we all are accepting those changes then we can just move on to just the materials and at least we narrow down the list for next um I think that's a good point so I I'll just comment I I'm pretty sure our new sidewalk has a brick band and I think what they were showing and I don't know what we can ask was all concrete and the brick was like more toward the entrance so it's not it's maybe speaking to it but it's not replicating and I I I think

077we were originally asking I I believe it was even in the gcg report like really hone that down is it going to match or not in fact you were the first one to bring that up yeah but I I think that the there's different conditions depending on the width of the sidewalk up here there's conditions where it's wider and there some planted area so they put brick there too right Peter but there's other areas where the is narrow enough that it's just concrete so if you walk around town you'll notice the banding is not the brick is consistent the width of the banding is not because of different features so looking on our side the town hall side of Main Street we have the planter boxes right and so there the the banding is much

078wider than than on the other side of the street now if we walk on the other side of the street which I'm going to call the cell side of the street which is near the memorial the the Fallen uh soldiers Memorial so I believe that brick banding is only about 3 to four bricks deep right and so it's much skinnier um on that side and on that side you already have trees and and and so there's really no planter boxes on the southern side of the street when you get around to Pizza mine which is the body and property here that That Sidewalk is so skinny between the curb and the building there's no brick banding at all and so as as you cross the street I'm going to say from the post office across

079Main Street there's the dentist zeny Dental zeny Dental there is a bump out that has some brick banding with a tree in it with a tree planting box and and it's I'm going to say it it's uh it has brick in that element but then as it as that sidewalk Narrows down and takes that turn the the there's no brick and so moving down the sideway here there's no more brick on that curve from the curb and between the curb and the building so so that means that the brick is going to reappear on this property that when it gets a little wider to the right of the concrete before you enter the pallet of those patios correct right so but would it would be on the building side and Notre and not not as

080a trim as along the street yeah which may be appropriate for the width of the sidewalk the sidewalk is the sidewalk and the patio is the patio right one's town and one's um privately owned so um I I guess I would just to say that that would be you know given that should be you know if there's if there it should just be taken a second look at and make sure that that's that's the appropriate solution and it very well may be that that is the appropriate solution for this area where this thing turns the corner and then continues off into whatever neighborhood that that maybe that is the appropriate solution but to have images of that corner as it's finished and you know to kind of prove that point I guess would be my

081suggestion yeah the brick Bing I and I'll double check tomorrow um um but the the Brick banding is really limited to Main Street and it have go may go down front uh Front Street a little bit towards the library but even in front of the library there's no brick band I I there's limited brick banding and and I think it's more around the tree boxes and the bump outs for for the for the for the crossbox yeah maybe so we can just get some images and yeah I you know then not a problem I can get some images and just circulate around to the plany board that's a pretty easy solution the continuity of how it is because right now this feels like more Patchwork of brick in this because we're trying to force that

082yeah connection so I don't know if it is powerful enough um and really helping us connect I don't know if you'd walk down from Main Street and turn around the corner whether you'll say hey I saw that brick ban there because there's a start stop start stop in this scenario so if you're forcing an element it doesn't work so maybe to just take photographs of certain patterns MH and how it starts and stops or is it a continuous band if there's some logic in how that was created to copy it into this so I I appreci I mean that's sort of I don't know enough about design I told J the adult who wears gr animals right but I I do notice those things and I appreciate the comments and that was early on so

083I think that in my opinion is not settled um especially when experts weigh in but I do believe in my opinion all the other things about adding a tree moving a bikes I I believe those are settled so I would support yeah I agree with that and and I will just add that maybe there I think what Deepa was referring to that that you you go from a concrete to kind of a patch of brick and then to the other material I mean there's an opportunity there especially with what has been done on on these changes where you could create like a frame of of those patios that is brick that really kind of holds the the the the character of the downtown and then inside that frame of break then you can put the

084new material which is part of the project so that's another way because right now is it just like a a wide band in the front and stops looks like yeah but that's another way to do it so so I guess I would agree with Kate I think everything else I like all the changes I I'm allet with all those uh and maybe this can be be giving one more look May sorry maybe it would be good to have a diagram of um the site with with no vegetation just the paving pattern would that you know so we can just see how it but yeah I I agree that I mean I went through the design review list and besides the few items I mentioned about the signage I get the pergola is still in the

085drawing so I'm not sure where that design review comment you know came from um that I I think all those have been checked off and and taken care of and and um listened took the design Review Committee suggestions into consideration and applied them to the project so I I think we all appreciate that could I could I ask you a question sure so this discussion about the sidewalks I'm look confused so is the sidewalk that's being part of this not our you know part of the of the street work is that brick or is that has it ended and become concrete at that point that that's our question and we we think it's concrete it's right so is there so if you have I mean Peter if there are drawings that show the layout of

086that I'd be more than happy to update the model to show that accurately okay if it if there is Brick patterning in there and maybe that maybe maybe this project affects how that brick patterning is set up I'm happy to take I'm happy to take pictures and obviously Ron I'm happy to just you know come out here if you want to come out and have a cup of coffee we can walk around and you can see the brick patterns and and how it kind of everything is now turning down um down Homer because right now the downtown is complete minus the removal of the the telephone pulse which is really an eversource which is really on eversource to make the the under ground connections and then the over then the above ground wires will come

087down and so but from a Hardscape perspective you know you can come out here and you can see the final product I was out I was out a few weeks ago and I did see it but my my question is um the construction documents for the street do they show brick paving patterns on the sidewalks or is that something you guys work out separately I think the construction documents do show Paving patterns I cannot confirm that that is what had was was developed and I think there was more brick to tell you the truth um there's more brick that was first proposed within those construction drawings then is actually installed um number one the island that runs in the center of town that was supposed to be stamp con stamped asphalt that was taken out

088and then the bricks were laid in because of the appearance uh the appearance of as first proposed was really not acceptable to the town and so that was something that was was done on the Fly and I believe was was it was du was done with great success because it looks much better than it did uh two designers nod their head uh but yeah so so I can provide you with that those construction jars yeah because so if the if the existing limit of scope ends at the pizza place for example what was scheduled for for this side of of Homer Street well well nothing because the project ended oh the project then okay so this is a clean slate yes we don't have to worry about somebody putting a sidewalk in and then working

089with that we can actually create okay so so so the so the comment Marcel made about I think I think what you were getting at was to to draw the brick out onto the sidewalk so it's it become sort of a a welcome mat to the to the plaza yeah no I I I guess the comments were that uh the the the way it's laid out right now it it's almost just like a horizontal band and you you walk from a from a concrete um sidewalk onto like a a brick uh strip and then onto another material so it's kind of a weird like one two three transition whereas in the T the brick and the concrete are you really talk to each other nicely and and it's different on different parts of the street

090what what what can be done here to introduce the new material that you are proposing which is that that P would be what we were saying is potentially surrounding it and creating a frame for that entire Zone on the brick so that is a more natural transition that would be one way to do it maybe there's other ways to do it so I like Trisha's suggestion that once um um I think once you review you know the drawings or or or come and look at at the at the final product yourself uh we we we could look and you have a little part plan that shows the paos and we can just use that and just show maybe after you see it maybe you yourself would have uh an idea of of what you think

091um enhances Your Design better sure enough yep I agree I think the other thing we can unless there's more questions with that but the other thing we could go through um tonight briefly I don't think it'll take long is is our um kind of our our November 1 memorandum kind of checklist just to kind of get a sense of where those things are so the first item on that list was the environmental impact study we already talked about that um the next item was trails and the questions there was really to gcg um you know does their review take the trail into account is there any other safety measures that we should put in place now for a possible future Trail um in that area um the traffic impact study I don't think we have

092um any additional information on that uh Peter did you find out anything about the apartment egress requirements about those units I talked to I talked to our building commission and um he was going to he would as they apply for building permits he would have to require a um a distance measurement to make sure they met code and I believe I talked to Terry and Ron about this um but that was going to be looked at okay part that was being looked at and Ron I don't know if you have any update into or Terry but there was an emergency egress distance requirement that was going to have to be analyzed uh with the entrance and exit for those three units off of the um I'm going to say Roof Garden right yeah know I

093did look I did look in the ICC code and we can erress onto a roof it's a fire rated assembly and it takes you directly to um to a right away so I can cite the reference okay but I'm confident that that that's not an issue okay did you do a distance measurement yeah okay all right so that could that that may be requested later but it's on everyone's radar okay yeah in a sense that's a little bit you know out of the realm of the planning board it was just brought up and it it's a it's a code thing so it's better better to brought be brought up now than you know than later I agree um next was emergency vehicle parking space um I believe we at least got feedback from the fire

094department that said they had no problem sharing the space with the deliveries as long as it didn't become a permanent parking space for someone um we can post we can post uh a sign indicating temporary parking certain limit yeah I assume it'll be cross-hatched or or something like that I don't think we've heard back from police yet um I don't think there was anything from the police department but there was a letter from the fire department yeah I can concur that we haven't received a letter but vocally I've I've talked to the Chief and and there was no concerns okay um maybe we can just get that in an email or something thanks um the sewer grinder pump um so you had talked to Greg Al about that two emails you have two two emails

095from engineering I think Madam chair yes I have them in front of me but I'm asking Peter about uh his conversation so this is a this an interesting one I think number one would comes across to me is that that right now that that this is it's not part of the Town sewer regulations number one so there's no regulations in in the town of Ashen that call for an apartment multi-use building to install a grinder pump for the for the action of grinding and or the event of grinding wipes diapers um whatever is flushed down a toilet now it was brought up by our water and sewer department because from time to time and and you know things do get flushed down toilets and they get put through our pump stations our pump stations have

096grinder pumps in them and so um so really that's what it comes down to our our pump stations have grind your pumps in them people throw some very strange things down toilets right and so um but we do not have any regulations that call for any multif family unit developments over X number of units to install a grinder pump to chop up any foreign objects um before they enter into a public sewer now the the sewer and the water department are going to look at regulations to update their own regulations to to to call out for some of these to to hopefully tie this Loop however at this point we don't have anything now it's a novel it's a novel idea I've heard from a few folks but I've also heard from from our consultant

097that he's never heard of this being installed in a gravity sewer and so I'm kind of I'm conflicted because is there an issue do people throw crazy things down toilets yes however we don't have any regulations and for us to to create a condition we kind of we do need regulations and or evidence that something negative could impact so we I mean I I want to find out I think that was the question can we because I I mean my read of our our jurisdiction is infrastructure about projects right so to me it's critical this is infrastructure about a project that affecting and and the engineering report said so this is a difference than a single family home because you're having m multiple things going end up going through one connection right so this is

098a different condition and so I don't I mean I think we do have to go are we allowed to just because we don't have a regulation that may be the answer then we're not allowed to and we know but I don't I don't personally want to assume because there's no regulation that we wouldn't be allowed to consider this I think so what happens if if if now it's there's housing there right there's four Apartments sending things to the sewer and it's going to be 29 right that's that's a potential impact to the community that may potentially be in like have a mitigation for the project for it so we it's under our jurisdiction to consider it if we are allowed to consider it and that may be the simple answer there's no regulation and we

099can't do it but it may not be Marcel yeah I I I I totally understand what what kti is saying uh but but my comment to these last time or or the time before is that I I feel that the request cannot be arbitrary and if if the if the authority of that governs the sewer doesn't have that regulation there's probably a reason or maybe they they will reconsider that okay but as as it stands right now it doesn't exist so I I I I I personally don't like even we even if we have the authority which is really a good question I I I feel uncomfortable just come pulling out of the air ideas that are not regulation to to to to put on Project just because we can just because we can doesn't

100mean that we must and I and I don't like the the uh procedurally a board like ours throwing like requ requirements that have not been proven by by science or engineering or the authorities that regulate that system so I I I don't believe uh that that's the site as a whole yeah the load of the sewer has been calculated has been engineered and has to be because there's codes for that and and the building inspector and the authorities would have to approve it so I just feel a little uncomfortable trying to it's it's it's I see the Val the the validity of maybe this system but maybe it's not need I mean there's billions of buildings that don't have have it and the sewers still work so I just I feel uncomfortable just because we

101can we can do something that seems arbitrary to me still anybody else on that topic I mean without seeing legal counsel opinion I'm not sure we lack jurisdiction if there is a expert technical finding which I believe there is that one would be advisable and you have a multif family building that is putting extra pressure above and beyond the norm onto our infrastructure which is a public infrastructure I do believe our bylaws allow us to create conditions for a special permit project which is this one relative to infrastructure so I for one would like a legal opinion actually from legal counsel to say that we cannot have this condition before I say I'm uncomfortable anybody else I kind of Si what Marcelo said if agreed if we may have the power but if the team

102the experts have an ask for it have not seen foreseen a requirement in town knowing that there are so many multif family projects coming up I I personally don't agree that this is a requirement that we should suggest to the design team I think Amanda did you I I mean I was going to Echo Anna sentiment that I think the threshold question is can we have Town Council up to see whether or not it's even something that we can consider and then you know if we have and then sort of address the the merits basically is my thought yeah I mean I think it's a good question in general for Town Council like where where do the limits of our Authority where where do we step into gray area because we have been doing that

103once in a while as you know um so that would be that would be good to understand on a question like this um um but I also think that you know 501 Pond 100 Chestnut they both went through technical reviews too and this issue never came up on those much larger projects and so it does seem a little strange to plug it in on 29 units to me um that that yeah it seems a a little odd but for question one you know the first question is can we even do it I guess I mean we may have missed it in the other projects yeah and I think if if everybody gets smarter or learned something or they went to a conference and this is not coming from this sport this came from the technical

104review and then there was an independent we asked for the engineer said there is an issue and he literally says put the cost where they belong with the project that I think we I think going backwards of something that was wasn't done is not not an applicable kind of bar for this I understand hold on a minute I understand but I think it's more about like um to me it seems like uh that they're wondering amongst themselves like hey should this be a regulation not yes we're going to push for this to be a regulation and we've already done the homework and we know that this is true it seems like something they're putting out there as hm we need to look into this and that's the kind of gray area I'm not sure about

105being a test case for so you well what I was going to say is infrastructure cost so you know I think that our town planner is sharing that we already have this mechanism technically within our system right so my question would be can we get confirmation that the the the multifam use here is not going to have any impact on that infrastructure that whatever infrastructure we already have can handle it and it's not going to be financially cumbersome or somehow damage our infrastructure so if we have the mechanism I guess our own grinding systems that are going to take care of this and there's not going to be any impact then I would not have any concern but I'm not hearing that so that's the other kind of way to handle it obviously legal counsel

106opinion is always helpful and educational and I think we should get it in general so that we know where our line is for all projects um but I'm also very curious if it even makes a difference like even if we I want to talk but I don't know how to raise my hands yes so I think we just need a we need some more information in two different directions about this and then and then we can we can go from there so I'm sorry uh I see two hands raised or maybe one the first the first hand raised was Terry Morris Terry Morris we like to stay something please I I would I now I know you don't I know that I'm not unbiased because I represent the petitioner but I have had experience not

107only as an attorney but also on both on as a permitting in the permitting process Municipal and state permitting process so I'm somewhat familiar with the administrative what administrative law requirements are I think the bottom line is your professionals the people in your engineering department have the the the situation has not risen to the level where it they feel that you need to adopt they need to adopt they the professionals need to adopt a regulation to deal with this and until they do I don't believe it's appropriate for you to apply this this condition because as Mela said it could be deemed to be arbitrary and capricious yeah I I appreciate your comment but again as as I've said before the planning board's going to rely on our own experts and our own legal expertise

108um and so we'll we'll go to those sources and then and then we'll come back I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just saying we're going to lean in the direction of our own of our own people and then we'll come back for a discussion on this or or to make a point on it uh Mr zamuro do you want to make a comment Charlie's hands raised but yes Mr zudo would you like to make a comment please Charlie are you there okay all right so we we'll get back to that it's not being decided today um next on the list is Conservation Commission I don't believe um that that that isn't in process yet I don't think right hello Mr oh he's there Charlie would you like to say a few words can I hear

109you hello yep we can hear you we can hear you right yeah have te technical difficulties can you hear me Terry I can hear you so everyone else can too Charlie hello you all there yeah we're here speak oh okay so I built several buildings and I've never had a city or municipality ever asked me to put a rind of pump in for a storage system we built 65 units and some of we never had to do it um I've built we're probably close to 100 units of framing now they never asked marro has never asked I could go on and on about all the cities of the big apartment buildings we've done that are much larger than this and they'd never asked uh thank you yep I I I appreciate that it's just that

110you know the question has come up and so we're asking you know we're not asking you to do it we're asking that we're going to be investigating it a little further and we're not going to come up with an answer today you know so so is this just for us or for every project it's just it's just a question it's a question that came up like should this be a regular part of what we require in Ashland you know it just happened that it was mentioned during the technical review and so we're following up on it that's all there nothing to do who mentions it just for my information who mentions it the water and sewer department and they asked for it or they just asked it's I I think it's a it's it's a

111it's an idea now it's okay and that's what it is and I think this B I think we are trying to thoroughly flush out the idea to see if it can be no pun intended uh I didn't even mean to do that um if it could be into or should be applied across not just this project but any future project yes let's not let's not panic about it now let's just we just want more information we want more information as a board we're trying to just understand this point let's through it in future all right but Conservation Commission process has not been that's not started yet okay color schemes obviously we're working on those design Review Committee report I think that's basic I think that's basically done except for the things that are about gcg

112but that's not the design Review Committee part that's the planning board part those are right concert mineus a signage yes yep minus signage so most of those items are are being taken care of conservation the plantings I think I believe also most of those were addressed on the um in the design Review Committee they were swapping out some plants for others they were swapping out um I don't native species maybe for others there were there were little swaps and there was something in there I think they suggested um the applicant suggested that'd be put in as a condition that everything has to be off the suggested plantings list you know from the um from the town the conservation agent um and and things like that so I think all of those they were fine making

113those those changes I I think that I mean I I would agree with that assessment but I think the last from the conservation agent was a little bit open or confusion maybe so I what you said I agree and it's if it's all taken care of on condition then we're fine I can go pull those things out again I was reading through them before the meeting um but yeah it seemed they seem to be taken care of to me but we can we can double check that um sewer capacity I think we have confirmed that the water and from the water our water and sewer consultant that everything is thing saying your hand was still off that everything is good I I think it is in writing but um we'll have to we pull up

114that document that was yeah I don't have I don't have that one in front of me but we can get have that in writing um the waterf flow test I think that was also complete right that's Ty that's typically uh I have confirmed that there's no question that this section of town uh actually the downtown has the highest water pressure in the downtown and there's no evidence that this wouldn't have enough water flow to it but that's something that is typically conditioned Within an approval process all right the swept path analysis was looked at by the fire department um and in a letter he said thought one part of it might be a little tight but he was okay with it was basically the gist of it um and the technical review um oh in

115relationship also to fire he also said that the fire sprinkler connection that's not on this list but it was mentioned before he said he liked the location where it was being shown on the corner of Homer and Alden because there was a fire hydren across the street um and then finally the technical review um that we're looking for a response for the all departmental comments but I think a lot of them are already integrated into this list can we double check that to make sure I believe so but I'll double check yeah I think we already integrated them so all right any further questions that we will be continuing to re to revisit this list but we're we're you know chopping off pieces of it I think just so we don't forget we may I

116think we are expecting this to be complete but we may have to add the gcg final review to so CU I I think it's a good process we established we probably should start at the beginning doing this we open things um next time but just add it to this list I think yeah I think that can be obviously at the top of the list CU I think you and I both commented that going through the gcg list there are lots of resolved resolved resolved but there are lot also a lot of things that are not resolved and some of those things are B are planning board waivers and maybe next time we will as a board focus on those things that gcg is saying planning board to approve planning board waiver needed or conditions that's

117right so maybe next that would be a great thing to focus on next time any was this this project having solar panels we it does have solar panels and I think Ron mentioned that they had a layout had a layout sharing it's in here oh it's in the packet somewhere if you can see my screen uh um you can see an image looking down on the roof cell spacing yep cell spacing thank you not visible from the street do you want to do that now sure and and Terry I just want to make a note I know I see Rick on the call Rick do you want to jump in and provide any comment or or color on on where things stand from environmental standpoint I know you did receive um the gcg letter um

118in and and I know Terry noted in a call that you were looking to um set up a call with gcg to go over outstanding issues um but do you want to add anything to this conversation uh no I I I do want to do that I mean I think the major of a lot of the gcg issues have been addressed I think we're down to a couple of just fine technical issues um and I think that you know with a phone call um or a zoom meeting or something or even in person I'd be happy with um I think we can um address the rest of the remaining comments um and be able to get the clean letter that we're looking for out of gcg okay so in your in your in your opinion

119the gcg letter that was dated I believe November first there was no red flags into a hurdles you believe we can overcome no it's just you know there's multiple ways we can address it I just want to talk to them to figure out the best way to address comments there was nothing that was insurmountable in that in that report okay all right I'm happy to work with you and obviously it's it's good to see you on the call thanks all right does anyone have any further comments before we try to wrap this up and continue all right so I I think what we will be looking at for next time that we discuss this is that we will look be looking at the gcg items at minimum we'll be looking at the gcg G items

120that they pass back to the planning board and go through that list um we'll look at the colors if if we have what we need I'm getting a little tired of keeping going back to Colors without the information that we need um so we would then be continuing this to we only have the 14th before for yeah so looking at the meeting schedule our next meeting and our only one our only meeting excuse me in December is on the 14th then we're going to jump into 2024 uh still scary saying that but that we're going to meet on the 11th and the 25th at this point and so I think we're looking for a continuance um and and and at this point where we stand probably Beyond you know we're looking for a continuance uh

121into the new year uh and Terry please weigh in on on your opinion and obviously we need to talk about extending the date of the decision to be filed with the town clerk so I think we're happy to to extend the cond the the public hearing to December TW to December 14th if if I if I obviously reading the room but I think the the decision date needs to be moved out to at a minimum of January 25th no I think the decision date needs to be moved back to a minimum of March 1st because March 1st yes because as soon as even when we get through all the gcg stuff all the color stuff all these other things we're still going to be having to go through conditions and go through an approval document

122if we have if we vote to approve and that takes quite a while that's not going to happen in a couple meetings and so I'm a little I for one am a little tired of just kicking this two weeks two weeks two weeks or a month I want to give us I I want to say March 1 I don't want to deal with this issue again I want to to be slightly realistic that we can that we can reach that point so I'm looking for I'm looking for somewhere around March first and then we'll see if we get it done by that time any comments on that from the board and I know that might be frustrating but there have been a lot of delays a lot of postponing and delays here that have not

123been in our court not in the planning board's court and this is just a date that we have to keep kicking down the road and it's it's it's starting to annoy me Terry is is this acceptable to you uh representing the applicant I have to discuss a matter with my client you and I can confer with it um before the next meeting we will certainly yeah we need to we need to discuss it we're certainly inclined to do it but probably best if I don't say anything more this evening that's fine where's the date currently at the next date's December 15th no I mean where's the date the deadline date at December 15th okay yeah so so the that's where it stands right now the decision if it wasn't a if it wasn't if it

124wasn't agreed upon by the applicant December 15 we would have to file a decision on December 15th and obviously Terry you and I can work together but in the meantime the planning board will have to take action to make sure that we're protected um and and and we'll go from there but obviously two weeks gives me myself plenty of time and uh to to do what I need to do uh to protect the town and the planning board uh if that that extension is not granted well I think we could we could extend it to like you said the first meeting in January at this point but but I I want a discussion to happen about a more realistic date you know because when we when we continually meet and we don't get the things

125that we need to meet about um that's just not in the planning boards we're not we're not slowing down this process right and um I'm just getting tired of dealing with this date every other every other meeting so one of the key things that we reason I that I I'm reluctant to commit to a specific date at this point is a lot of time was spent discussing this issue of uh colors and I have to confer with the team to see to see what whether we're in a position to give you what you want in two weeks uh which will obviously impact how far into the new year this goes so so Terry I think what was offered by the chair if I can say this uh and please step in if I'm wrong is

126that uh if we could continue this out to the first meeting in January which would be the January 11th so that would be January 12th that would relieve myself of writing a decision uh you know in preparation for the meeting on the 14th to vote on which probably wouldn't be in the favor of you the applicant so in my mind if we can continue this out to at a minimum of January 12th that would at least open up the conversation and the lines of communication to talk about a realistic date which would move into March as as suggested by the chair well we could certainly agree to continues to January 12 without any further discussion that's not an issue okay so let's continue to January 12th okay let's let's continue the decision date to January

12712th we'll was that what it yeah the the hearings on the 11th okay and then we'll we'll continue the public hearing until until December 14th and obviously you and I can work together to concur that you will be able to provide information obviously regarding the colors and then I'll work with Rick to to set up a meeting with gcg to kind of tie down the the kind of the loose the continue to continue to tie down some of these Loose Ends uh but I think that that's a positive that's a positive suggestion you know there it the chair is right there's been a lot of delays but the frustrating thing for us is we're gcg is a moving Target we we you know that's one of the thing reasons why we can't commit to you

128know have trouble committing to a specific time we have no guarantee that if Rick meets with you know with them there won't be something else but I don't need I don't want to delay this any further we'll agree to January 12th or whatever it is and I fully expect that we'd probably have to before then extend it out somewhat further but uh we appreciate the time you spent on this spending on this tonight and Madam chair I want to make clear we we're very appreciative of the time you spent throughout the many months that we've been here we're almost there and we we will keep our heads down and keep keep running towards the goal line can we get a clarification are we going to try to do a site visit for the colors or

129not did we agree that we want some kind of panel that we ourselves will carry out into the sunlight or are we actually going to try to do something in person with the applicant can that be clarified I think given that sunlight is before 4:30 that's that's probably not going to happen but I think but I think we could have I think we could get the colors and we could bring them out we could have a um you know a either alone or together you know yeah I I I think if they are provided as we have requested on a board or on on a on an assembly um then we can organize with Peter a ways to come see it on the outside or or or whoever can go to the side but we

130need to have it in an assembly uh Al together clearly organized and that that'll do it if I have the boards I'm here in town hall obviously I'm happy to meet anybody you know in you know in the morning I'm in you know myself Ando Alvaro are happy to beet anybody you know from what I'm suggesting is can we ask the applicant to give that to us sooner than later so maybe we can try to do it by the 15th of December if that's doable on the application team I'm I'm sure they would and I'm speaking for now for you Terry in the application team but if that's doable I think it' be great to to receive something yeah so why don't I work with Peter to kind of make a a more description descriptive

131definitive what we want as far as these samples so that it's ex extremely clear and um see if we can get those in advance so that we do have an opportunity to take them outside and you know and all of us have very busy schedules but on our own schedule get to see them in the little daylight that we have and then we could have a more valid discussion on the 14th so okay so looking to continue this until the 14th um and the date decision date would be going out to January 15th 2024 2024 yeah all right is there a motion to continue guess I'll I'll make a motion to continue uh 949 Homer Avenue hearing to um January oh December December 14th and a second second that roll call vote andit I Marcel

132hona i k Jers I and Trisha Kendall I so that is continued to the 14th last meeting in 2023 so Margie thank you thank you guys thank you everyone and Terry and uh Rick I'll follow up with you later in the week sounds great cor thank you thank you all all right so next item on our agenda is the discussion with um sustainability committee Margie um on the materials that were um sent to us on the new tree by law yes so I am G to does anybody have to take a break no Okay jump into it all right so Mar I'm going to kind of just go through through this memo and I think you received this so and I'm I apologize chuck had to Chuck had to leave so first off did everyone

133get to see the memo that was proposed everyone read the memo does anybody have any questions so just to kind of make sure I read it correctly what's behind the memo is the is the most recent draft so what's behind the memo is the most recent draft of the bylaw that was provided by Margie now this bylaw the bones of everything here was developed back in 2019 2020 in an effort from a sustainability committee and at the time our assistant Town planner and our sustainability manager that draft was um reviewed by Lisa me um and then right at the same time Co hit and so that's what kind of put the breaks onto the development of this bylaw obviously now a few years later we're picking it back up and I think Margie's made a

134couple changes to it uh however my memo was put together just to provide some light some color some history some context to tree bylaws in general so so it was put together as more of a comparison document while the the bylaw was something for the planning board to read to look through and and to to analyze um so can we relative to your memo would it make sense for example um like your memo talks about protected tree right the draft of the bylaw defines um protected tree sorry I got to find that one protected tree as six 6 in so do we understand your bylaw as being I mean I'm just trying to understand like the your memo relative to the draft how should we kind of look at the two so they kind of

135across okay they kind Cross of each other they kind of cross reference each other because number one our bylaw is is outlined within through this memo but it's also I'm trying to also compare what other communities are doing okay and and throughout the bylaw we create we we take three different our communities and I do want to make a note publicly Samantha Riley our sustainability committee uh sustainability um manager was the one that really put this my memo together with myself okay and so I want to give her credit first and foremost um for putting this together but with this said I'm also I'm cross referencing the memo and the tree bylaw and I'm also putting a comparison in to say this is what we're proposing we're proposing 6 Ines right right and six inches

136is what Arlington and Welsley did Welsley is 8 in oh your M said Arlington and Welsley Define a significant tree of six I'm sorry you're correct so is it Arlington and Welsley at six Su eight and Somerville Somerville is at eight so if we choose six and larger we're doing something consistent with Arlington and Welsley correct oh yeah I'm just trying to understand how to read this and I'm just trying to say these are the differences between 6 8 this is a 10-in tree this is a 12in tree gotcha and then I can I can also tell you just for clarification if you look behind you at the seal on the outer ring the blue that's a 56 in Tree in diameter right so that's a big tree yep so the yellow inner or the

137yellow the next step in a 48 in tree and then the inner seal which is just the Clock Town Hall in in the river that's a 35 and2 inch diameter tree so I'm just trying to add to say like okay this is what all other towns are doing but at the end of the day this is what we're proposing as a major tree six Ines we're proposing we're choosing a very aggressive definition of a protected tree I I I would I would land there agressive was a good just so that we're all on the same page so it seems like one way to read your memo is to kind of go through it and see where we as a planning board might have some consensus like where would we be comfortable presenting something to town

138meeting Yes again we don't necessarily have to all love it but we have to be comfortable to give it to town meetings so that the public can actually take a peek at it y so so on on the point of um the tree diameter at breast height though I mean I I feel like we have to hear from the sustainability because the whole part of this is over a sustainability issue and the a 6-in tree processing carbon versus an 8 in tree versus how long it takes to grow to that size I think are relevant that I'm thinking sustainability knows more than we do I did some kind of quick internet research and got that it's actually I mean you can say 6 in is sort of an aggressive definition but it's not it takes

139a long time to get it treat in oh yeah no no I I understand I mean within this construct I don't mean aggressive relative to the world I mean aggressive relative to what's in front to the bylaw and the whole memo is broken up into different points of interest I call them right number one applicability how do how were we the town the bylaw the planning board going to to enforce quote unquote a tree bylaw and also what do other towns do so I try to outline that right understood I think for me just big picture what I would love to see is a tree bylaw that we can get to town meeting and even if it doesn't have everything I love in it I want it to pass right and so I would love

140six but probably eight or 10 is more likely to pass I'm just kind of throwing out there a thought right and so I would for one would be happy to start somewhere see how it goes in Ashland and make it more quote unquote aggressive over time because right now we don't have any tree law whatsoever so I'm just going to throw that out there that maybe it's not so much about comparing it town to town for me it's more about trying to find some kind of compromis position as quickly as possible so we can deliver this to our people and see how it goes that's my philosophical position on this whole thing okay because if we're going to start not arguing but trying to find the perfect answer to every single problem we're not going

141to have a tree bylaw in my opinion because lots of people are going to disagree whether six is too aggressive or not aggressive enough so I'm just going to throw that out there because I think that will help us actually get to a tree B that we can get to town meeting pass see how it goes and maybe five years from now take a more aggressive stance what process do we want to go through and tonight to get to a better understanding of where the I mean Peter has his memo but he's distributed we've probably all read it do we want to start there do we want to look at the actual bylaw sorry I keep turning my microphone off do we want to look at the actual bylaw and say you know and and

142kind of go through that what do we how do we want to apprach I feel I feel like Peter's memo might be a good way to start if Peter can outline hey what are the five things we need to kind of decide to give direction I think seems like size is one of them so size is one of them right big topic right I I think applicability is the big thing that we need to kind of flush out I think number one and I'm just going to go through the proposal right number one we're going to say okay if you're if you're applying for site plan approval right what are the triggers for site plan approval number you know it's it's any parking spot you know creating a creation of a parking lot greater than

143six six six parking spaces we have our own triggers in our in our bylaw right so I think but I think also a second element that we have to talk about is what projects are we going to catch what projects are we going to have to enforce this upon right so site plan approval is going to be mostly commercial developments mixtures developments um bigger developments of that nature that scale right but but it also applies to subdivisions as it say if we choose that so if we choose that I'm going to get there right okay number one site plan alteration I mean site alteration special permits that if someone's changing their grade greater than 500 I think it's uh greater than 500 square ft or with 500 square ft of material look looking across the

144board all tree bylaws typically have any change of grade has that element in there then we go into subdivisions now subdivisions and I look at Margie because I kind of we went around this for a long time now within this subdivision we are saying this will apply to any new sub any new subdivisions this will apply and this will apply to the roadway that's cut in right that's what we're asking that's what we're saying right now but but but if the subdivision say is for say 10 lots for residential for houses and there there's a residential section of it that that that wants to um be applicable only to the setback zones so in the subdivision would that also apply or are we trying to so so that's a whole different thing so where everyone

145landed was that the tree bylaw will apply to the subdivision and it will sub it will apply to the subdivision to the roadway the culdesac right and so a developer will have to pay to cut down Andor Implement and plant a replacement trees for any trees cut down within that right away now a subdivision therefore creates New Lots right that's the whole point of a subdiv ision so any also and this is the kind of that second step within the subdivisions and that any new Lots created this bylaw would apply to so any new residential lots created via anr Andor subdivision residential this bylaw is going to be created now what we also did is we stole not stole but we borrowed Arlington's plan right so what Arlington does and a couple other communities especially

146well Wellsley doeses is too is that they almost take a what in Ashen would be a 30,000 ft lot right and then you minus then you look at the setbacks right the setbacks then creates what's known as the build buildable envelope right now any trees cut down in the buildable envelope are not are not that that that are are allowed right and that applies to someone that bought a lot on that subdivision and they can come say I'm going to build my house over here they have the right to they that zone to they have the right to cut down any tree within the build within the buildable envelope where they will put their house this bylaw is going to enforce the any trees cut down within the setbacks so right now within the residential

147a subdivision 30,000 foot lot which is kind of across the board is that we have a setback of 40 feet from the front property line 15 from the sides and and I believe 30 from the rear right and so that's going to create your building envelope and so therefore um I believe it was a dendam c that was that was sent out um but also right here a sample tree plan mhm and so that was kind of the compromise we landed at because and I will say I was was a fierce defender of this cuz I really was was skeptical about this right but I do want to make note and I think it's the biggest thing that we have to talk about is not the biggest thing that we need to talk about but

148we need to make it clear that this tree bylaw is not going to be applicable to any lot that was created pre today adoption of this zoning bylaw so if if Mar solo I'm going to use you an example thank you because Trish is sitting next to me uh but this bylaw if you want to cut down a tree in your setback in your front setback we can't we're not going to be able to apply this bylaw to you this is only going to be applied to any newly created residential lot from here on out if accepted at Town media retroactive just for setbacks so essentially when you say subdivision subdivision approval we're talking about just the setbox areas just the setback are the road and the road the RO so I think that's really

149important to make it super clear in the in the draft the draft should openly say relative to subdivisions this only applies because I know legal Le can be really complicated correct I think we need to be blatant and clear that this only applies to setbacks and roadways period relative to subdivisions correct and obviously the grand father Clause needs to be completely clean 100% yeah it's got to be and you got to allow for we have to allow for exceptions for the development of a driveway right in elements of that nature which are resp which are common right but that was kind of the that was the that was the easiest way at least for me as a town planner to buy into applying the tree bylaw in action to a residential development because to a

150to a subdivision you mean to a subdiv y to also but to residential land because here's the other thing right there was conversation you say and this is what other towns do right if you're in Welsley or Arlington this applies to all residential homes so now it doesn't matter if your lot was created in 1950 if you're going to cut down a tree in a setback this bylaw is going to apply to you right which is what we're doing no we are not doing that we're going to go grandfather it we're going to be saying this applies to any newly created lot from this date here on out for subdivisions for subdivisions well there's only two ways to create a buildable lot subdivision and an anr I understand but but so I have a question

151so I I I think I I I understand now the process and it seems reasonable to me I think as a Point of Departure so what happens if um if if somebody plants a subdivision for commercial purposes uh and and their whole intent was to avoid clear cutting and and things like that so how that would not apply to a commercial development or or if it's let's say it's a subdivision to put some warehouses mhm then what happens well you're still going to have to build a roadway no the roadway I get it but the lots of each one of those commercial entities most likely those commercial entities are going to have to file a s plan review M and then it would apply to them and then this and then it would apply then

152this would apply through that trigger so okay so this is what I was going to ask it maybe I'm kind of like oversimplifying it but the majority at least for me the majority of projects I'm concerned about are the projects we've had which are site plan approval where we are clear cutting that's and so that seems to be the Crux of our concern in Ashlin not so much the subdivisions maybe because I haven't seen that many subdivisions in my very limited time here on this board but I'm under the impression that whatever land we have left seems to be less vulnerable I think we're kind of past the faford era where we're subdividing land and we're kind of creating these new creative chunks I feel like we're in a new phase in Ashland where site

153approval is is where the clear cutting is happening I could be wrong but that's my perception no I think you're right and I do just want to make a note to this because as reviewing all these bylaws right Arlington Welsley this right and I and I try to outline this this is my memo right what they are protecting against is the tear down the 1950 home getting torn that's on a that's on a 10,000 foot lot that has mature cheese on it right that someone's coming in tearing down the tearing down the camp in alley Cape right and chopping down every tree on the site they're putting in a 4 and a half thousand square foot house and and and they're they're having to they take down every tree because they have to put the

154foundation in they have to work around the site and then they back fill with a couple with a couple trees here and there right and so that's what's kind of going on I kind of see and when you go through the triggers of the other bylaws especially in in in the other towns that it's the expansion of a footprint it's a it's a it's a raise and a redevelop of a residential lot it's a it's a it's a addition greater than 20 250,000 Square fet which is nothing right Andor it's a 250 excuse me 250 feet that's that's what I'm I guess what I'm saying is I think we're past that I Ashland has already been so what we're protecting against which I agree with you is a site plan approval is something different than

155what a couple of the other towns that already have adopted tree bylaws are protecting it against so I feel like we had to take kind of a hybrid approach to say okay how do you get commercial right well commercial is kind of kind of is defendable through Cy plan approval right now how do you look at any future residential well then you're going to have to create this date and say from here on out it's going from this I mean I'm comfortable with that because I think Ashland has already been clear-cut where it's too late to use the subdivision Provisions in the not grandfathered fashion like I think it I think we're past that point I think we're now no longer there I think thanks to faford and other developers were past that point and

156so we've clear-cut enough that to me the Crux of the issue is in sight plan review I'm just sharing my comfort level so I'm okay with this less aggressive grandfather version of the subdivision piece because I think it's more likely to work for Ashland does anybody off any you know I'm a uh being someone who regretfully has worked on at least one of those take Downs put up something much larger um you know I think those I think we could put something in that protects against extreme cases of that when like the 250 is that that's nothing that's no square footage that shouldn't Beed anywhere that's what I'm saying but um but the tearing down of a whole house and putting up something much larger I think I mean I don't think we have to

157focus on that right now but I wouldn't be opposed to having that kind of dramatic change in there now in that case you're really only affecting probably a few trees you know because you're only you're probably putting that house right back down where it was to begin with right um and so but there probably there could be a few mature trees around there it's not you're it's not like you're taking out 20 trees in the middle of your lot you know so you you suggest that you would do that by percentage saying if if the footprint of that Cape or whatever is, 1500 square ft if you go what Beyond like 50% more or would would you have to come to a formula that way I think I mean I think they did yeah U

158you know you know but I think I'm not sure we have to get into it in this round yeah but I think Anna had mentioned it before as it is happening in these other communities I mean yeah you know uh yeah and and it has to be proportional because it's not the same an addition of 250 square ft on a little Cape than on a large you know ranch or Co right so just there's four trigger points in in Welsley right demolition of a structure with a footprint okay excuse me demolition of a structure with a footprint of 250 ft or greater now that's a demolition of a structure right 250 ft of a structure that's removing a shed yeah that's that's nothing that's no space construction okay it's constructing a struct okay constructing construction

159constructing a structure on a vacant lot which is a home constructing a retaining wall uh with a height of four feet or greater so that's kind of getting into okay site alteration constructing a structure or an addition that increases the total existing footprint lot coverage by greater than 50% or more so I think what they're covering in what town is that that's Welsley I think what they're covering is that when you when you take out one of these little houses and then you find something bigger it's not just the house it's the landscaping and the pool and the pool house and the separate garage and so your whole that whole site starts to be affected depending on the thing in the land that's where I think the retaining wall comes into there and because it's

160not just oh I'm taking down my little ranch and I'm putting 150% Ranch you know back it's like that's not the problem because there aren't trees planted right next to your house anyway they no one you cut them down a long time ago so they don't fall in your house right so um that's not the issue it's that when you do one of these houses the project extends into the landscape MH so makes sense I don't think it's pervasive Ash at all right now I guess that's what I'm saying not to be overly practical but again I just want to tree bylaw to address what we've seen the most which is clearing with site plan review so I'm I'm happy to talk about other things but I don't want those other things to slow us

161down no I agree and I agree with that so so that's one element that I think we can we kind of discuss right and obviously that kind of rules through the next element in the memo talks about a protection plan oh hold on Peter but but Anna mentioned the first part was size correct and we didn't come to uh Anna suggests that we be a little less aggressive potentially that to to to and uh I mean how do we how do we feel about it um because I understand what Anna is saying I'm actually I'm I'm tending to agree with that approach but I don't know if it's a good one so how how do we but yeah I I mean I I'm going to go back to I think the sustainability committee has worked

162at this for three or four years so I it and atast we should at least kind of have a discussion I mean I think we were trying to partner with them so we shouldn't yeah um people that have had a lot I know a lot of those people in trishas they they have boatloads of research so we should at least talk to them makes sense what this memo is just is kind of highlighting point just the points of interest that we need to discussed as we talked about a bylaw is we have researched other bylaws right the other big element I think we need to really kind of get in well the tree plan I is is is is is kind of I think we've seen a couple really good examples of what a tree

163plan is and I think we need to just borrow it and and include it within our bylaw yeah you know and and then looking like this is this is not this is not uncommon on a site survey like site surveys do this all the time Mark the the type of tree and the diameter of the tree or whatever want to Mark so the another element um is is very common is tree removal so any trees that were removed prior to the application of a site plan submitt it's almost date it predates it back right so they're saying okay well if you knew you were going to come in for uh if Marcelo if you owned uh if you owned a building a develop you know a lot of land and you were and you knew

164in the next 12 months you're going to submit a plan to the planning board and you were going to um indoor if you were going to submit a if you're going to submit a plan but you went ahead and had a bunch of trees removed on the site and then 6 months later a plan shows up at the planning board for site plan review the planning board in town says Whoa timeout you just cut down these trees six months ago those are still those trees need to apply to what you just submitted so that what all these bylaws kind of do is to say they kind of give themselves a 12mon window to go back in time to say okay in the last 12 months did you cut any trees down on your property in

165an in the effort to kind of short circuit the tree bylaw does that make sense in our current draft does it have yes does it have that so that's kind of a no-brainer I think we it kind of has it I just want to put lay it out there yeah but that one seems like easy to get agreement and move on say keep it the next one is mitigation right and this is where money comes into play and so this is where I think it's going to be a very discussion with the sustainability committee but in the bylaw in this memo it lays out what is proposed by the sustainability and I think Margie can speak to that when appropriate and how it's calculated and then we kind of compare what other towns do and

166the replacement value of it I think that is that's kind of a big element and that leads into the next topic is obviously kind of replacement trees what we see um and where would the replacement be if you don't mind explaining so the replacement trees where would they go so they would number one they could go they go on the site and number two whatever trees that would not fit in or cannot be replaced on the site the developer would be paying a mitigation cost to a refund that would be to the town of Ashlin so it's not really one or the other it's more like mitigation and you can also put some on the property and you still have to pay as you yeah as you okay as you develop a site you're gonna

167replant and you're G to landscape right so it's almost you're saying okay what's here what's existing and what's proposed right and it's a mathematical equation to say and then you're saying well what how many inches at breast diameter height were existing on the land how many are going back in the planting plan and at what caliber and then what's the what's the difference and the difference is going to be uh a fairly I would say cumbersome meth mathematical equation that's going to pencil out into a a a mitigation fee that would have to be paid by to the town can you explain sorry go ahead there is a ratio too kind of a replacement ratio is it 1 inch to one inch and we see that across I think in Somerville and in Arlington and

168then Wellsley you have 1 in to 0.5 so for every inch you take down you're replacing with a half an inch caliper tree so if you take take down an 8 in tree you're responsible for replacing 4 in and that 4 in could be split via one tree I mean that that those four wrenches are most likely going to be split via two trees little of a tricky part in this and and maybe it comes into play in that ratio is that you know when you have like you know the area behind my house is wooded right and the be many trees to take out in there if you wanted to build in there um but in a way none of those trees can really develop to their potential like if there were fewer trees

169down there they would have bigger better canopies but they're all squish right so none of them it's not like going to Cushing Park where all these trees really develop their full canopy because they're spaced out so in a way there's also kind of this balance factor of fewer trees can actually have better healthier trees with bigger canopies than packing the trees in there like in the like in the natural woods behind my house right and so I I can understand maybe why sometimes the ratio isn't one to one because fewer trees spread out actually have bigger canopies I think that's just you know they're not overlapping each other 100% so now can I ask a math question am I reading your memo right that 10 inch Tree in Somerville is 4,500 bucks and in Welsley

170it's 1500 yes okay so that is interesting I'm guessing I'm just thinking policy wise Somerville is more urban so trees probably mean more I'm guessing that there must have been some logic to that MH because there's fewer trees left yeah I cannot confirm right I'm just kind of I'm just kind of brainstorming what that actually me yeah yeah I'm just trying to understand like what is a tree Worth right like at some level we have to decide that and so we are not as rural as wellsly therefore not as flexible we've let go of a lot of our trees already so we may be closer to the urban policy of like holy we have a tree we better save it but maybe we're not as not as concerned as somville because we're not exactly in

171the city so we may be somewhere in the middle between wellesley's perspective of a a tree versus Somerville world like oh my God this is going to cost you some money but it may also be the kind of developer that's coming in right who can afford more or less maybe so I don't really know what they're thinking do you know what they're thinking I don't know what they're thinking number one I wish I did uh number two I think it's a I think you got to really it's I'm just trying to understand how to read the comparison right when I read when I read the comparison right yeah Somerville is urban it's the most highly densed community in the country right I think they always use that fact right Somerville is a tight community so

172yeah a 6in tree is a big tree in Somerville right like a tree and so yeah and and also and in Welsley yeah and and it's it's less right and I think from a other from a different standpoint right you have to say are we trying to punish somebody if they want to take down a tree and or do something to their lot and or develop on their land right so you're saying okay are we trying to punish these people uh are we trying to make but on the other hand I've also worked for I also do know that and I've worked for a tree company before in arborist when I was out of school cutting down a tree cost a lot of money right and so if you were going to cut down a

173tree right it can cost thousands of dollars right and then you try to tack on another ele another invoice right to the town of Ashland or to the town of you know example wellsy for this to say okay you're going to pay 30 you know $3,000 to cut down a a specimen tree and also you're going to pay the town another $3,000 so now the removal of that tree is not just going to cost you is going to cost you $6,000 right and so from a policy standpoint which this bylaw is it's a policy we have to say you know I think it's kind of you have to weave you have to really kind of thread the needle to say what type of town are we yes we value trees but also do we want

174to punish somebody if they're going to change something on their property and also how much is a tree and I think that's what Margie is trying to ele kind of tried to point out in this is trees are expensive and trees are expensive number one right and tree work is expensive removing trees is expensive and so it's a huge huge price act that you're asking that you're putting on this and we don't want to just I'm not I don't think towns are in the business to make money oh yeah no and I certainly don't disagree with you and I I don't ever look at this as a any kind of punishment I think it's about our values as a community and if we have a value of protecting the trees we have left I would

175argue that actually adds to our value and potentially makes us more profitable to come into to develop in theory if anything are rewarding developers because they can then come to a beautiful place where renting an apartment becomes even more pricey and they can charge more because you live in a beautiful Green Space I think there's a reason Wellsley apartments are expensive because people want to live in green spaces is a pro and a con because I don't know if it's a punishment but it can become one it can become one because we talk about affordability i t to agree with with Peter I I I I what what I like about all the work that has been done is that it it is setting up an objective and I think being consistent with the objective

176is more important and than than anything else so in a replacement condition um what is the objective the objective is to have more trees rather than less trees if there's a replacement where a person can cut a tree and then plant another two like the example you you you you gave I I I think then the objective would be fulfilled adding fines and things and and and additional regulations is overbearing and I think it's it's very easy to put on a piece of paper and and the impact is that it it it it just may not pass right I mean I think make the replacement easy you know make the replacement attractive and easy so that you're motivating the value of our community which is I think we're valuing trees more than collecting fines at

177the same time some people may simply find it easier to write a check and not worry about figuring out the perfect tree to plant and so I can see that that can be efficient that's a hypothetical maybe somebody would do yeah maybe not that's difficult to pinpoint right uh uh and by the way just before I forget under applicability there's four bullet points but I want to go back back to one that I think is missing the town of Ashland needs to be also part of that on public work and is not there and I've said it before I think the town has to set examp Follow by example by showing that the town plan review cover that for the town project site plan review it's like the school project would be site plan review

178how about a road um maintenance that has some trees or something so it happen sometimes with talked about on the road that is public they want take it out and what I've seen across the board is tree bylaws do not take into account what's with the scenic road all the tree bis that I've seen leaves the scenic road which is Section I believe 87 um whatever the the state statute is section 15 they it totally leaves it alone oh we can't touch it it's law can't override state law correct so they kind of that's not going to be impacted at all agree with you Marcel that yes we should have we should we should obviously is we cut down trees on Scenic roads that are that are have seen better days right we should replace

179those trees and I think a tree a tree fund could be used to help do that right but I think just as the that that this this the scenic Road statue and the shade tree statue of Mass General law is is it they're never cross-contaminated with a with a community but I think you're talking about other roads that are not Scenic like Scenic talking what whatever whatever the state uh I'm not interested in that I'm saying that any work for whatever reason even if it doesn't have to be highlighted here is if the town in town property cuts a okay has to cut a tree it has to be part has to be the the the applicability and and and the remedy MH should also apply so you're talking about adding that protection like the

180protection we have in Scenic routs where we take a tree down we replant it you're thinking of expanding it to all other roads in public property I mean you you talk about values I mean what better value to show the values if the town actually has to pay to do that too so it's not Cavaliers oh yeah we're going to CH that but the is not you're thinking of doing that even if it's not a uh site plan approval just like any reason anytime well the by law is to get better trees in Ashland I mean that's part of Ashland yeah I mean that's I agree with you but I think that's more from a policy standpoint like that's a policy standpoint what that's what this is isn't this by law policy so essentially you're

181proposing you're proposing so you're proposing a paragraph that would basically say you know part of the purpose is to lead and any Town property that has a tree of the size this would apply to it regardless of whether it's a special permit or not I I we don't even have to phrase it that that specifically it just added to the applicability one bullet that says public property public property or property of the town of as except whatever covers by the state I think as long as all the exceptions still apply like safety you know whatever the exceptions are but that's in it already that seems reasonable to me there are exceptions that were kind of boilerplate tree safety X Y and Z M I'm just curious as to like and I have no I no

182idea what the number would be but and I don't maybe it'd be possible to go back and do an analysis on it like what if this had to be done for the school or the public safety building right I mean those are projects that I would deem I think the community would deem that we essential for Ashland right um and what would what would that dollar value be I mean granted they especially in the case of the school they replaced they planted a lot of trees right they're still planting trees I think U maybe in the public safety building there was a little less opportunity for that I'm not sure um but what would have been that bill what would the bill have been you know and the same bill that would have been for

183a commercial or or or it's true but a commercial property is making profit for and a public it is not right it's not it's not so I think they are different but let's think a little bit about the the mo it's not just about the money it's also about Behavior right so what happens is when when you have a when you like this idea of punishment I don't think it's about punishment I think it's about changing Behavior because when you have a BW that says for every tree you got to pay x amount or you got to replace it guess what I'm going to do as a developer I want to avoid both right an ideal scenario it's a behavioral change which says oh I'm going to create a footprint that's not going to take

184anything down because I don't want to pay for and I don't want to replace trees so it's hard to say what would it have cost because in theory it would have cost nothing if the footprint would have been completely different so any project when you have a quote unquote a fine it's not a punishment if you can completely avoid it which is what happens behaviorally I I think that's true but um I I think it's also I very idealistic to to think that projects really work that way that you can finagle this building around or these types of building buildings around that many trees there's so many other complicated factors and it it's easy when you're just looking at one thing all I'm thinking about is trees but that's not really that's not really how

185those the project is so much more complex than that you know so um P TR would would it the the the bylaw and the memo are are saying like you can cut a tree if it's going to fall on your house that's an emergency okay it should be covered you logical um you could say I think following your train of thought the town needs a police station because it's an emergency you need to have a good police station and we have to build it here okay I I can buy an exception for that maybe if because it's Public Safety or or what have you those are one of they don't come all the time whereas the rest of the space may maybe more malleable to Ching trees no no I agree and I'm not trying

186to give any Municipal project of a free pass not not at all what I'm trying to do I'm just saying that I'm saying that there is a different and I think we should plant a tree if we chop one down I think that's a great idea sometimes again it's a little trickier than that because where do you put it you can't put it right by the road again what anyway but um but but I'm saying there is a difference between a municipal project and and a private project though I think those those are two different categories I'm not saying that both shouldn't be responsible and look at trees carefully and be sustainable obviously but they are different I I I totally agree and and and I'm not like dismissing it uh I I just have

187a a certain aversion to Reg ation that just these governmental entities throw it into the public oh but we are accept I kind of I kind of agree with that I do think there's an there's an there's a benefit to this being hey developers we're not punishing you we are putting forward a value that is actually something that is consistent with what we're doing both public and private I think that actually makes this stronger if we can figure out a way to do it I also hear Trisha's point which is that if you have a large public project this could be burdensome potentially for a large public project and so maybe the trick to making it apply to both public space and private space is to make the public space contained like a of a

188certain size right so public projects of what we would consider to potentially not be burdensome for a public project and there's got to be some definition of that that we can think about based on what might be reasonable right so there should be compromis there I think there's just there should be some kind of and this could be a true AC maybe it's already in here um but it could be true across the board of a kind of um application of a of a waiver in in a sense like if the if one of the public projects had gone through and proven their case that we looked at these five different sites but this is the best one because of these other important reasons or or um um you know whatever it is it could

189be a private project too that said look I tried to do this and there's nothing you know there's I'm trying to do the best that I can but this is just a difficult situation that there's a compromise there's a compromise in there somewhere there's a way that it can be analyzed instead of nope this is what the bylaw says pay up man I I love the way you said it because the if if the law applies to to to the municipality equally so does the waiver fair so I I I I think that is probably a good Avenue to say you know the town is not exempt the town needs to be just this might explain why most bylaws don't do both because once you start opening it up for public flexibility you have to

190open it up for private flexibility isn't is an a side plan review or or special pyramid flexibility included there it's judgment I I personally think sticking to my my level of comfort is site plan approval to me covers public projects and so I for one think that's sufficient because it already does it I think the second you start carving out extra public space you you're going to have to have exceptions which opens up a whole category of exceptions for private space you're going to open up a can of warms but I think that's what Marcelo was saying that they're the same and so if there's a waiver that anyone public or private can make a case that says hey you know um my situation is I'm a I'm a developer right and I'm going to

191come in here I want to put this but my situation I have a lot of trees but my Situation's a little different let me explain it what's going on here like these trees are two feet apart from each other and so I have all these trees but the trees can't even grow they have no canopy right there has to be there has to be a means to explain a situation that's not just black and white on paper because almost nothing's that simple right right I mean I mean that's true but I don't think I don't think we're going to get to language a waver that's going to be adequate to protect I mean when developers don't see black and white they think it doesn't apply I work for a construction company right we respect black

192and white and when it's not it's like you I probably don't have to do that right and they're not I mean it's it's going to be very very very difficult to write a waiver that's going to be meaningful to actually get a tree by not like write it in the bylaw it's saying that you have to come in front of this a board that will decide your fate for you there no but if there's no parameters for that I mean that that feels like that's a throwaway thing I'm just saying so we seem we seem to be interested in comparisons to other communities do other communities do some kind of special waiver where you can come on come in and sort of argue with the bylaw see it's a great question and I Canna say

193no but in defense not in defense but is is there to further conversation I look at the other bylaws especially in and I'm going to say Welsley and Arlington's because I think those are the closest commun to us is that their bylaw was adopted to defend against the teardown right and when I read their bylaws nothing to me screams commercial development subdivision development right so I think we're kind of forging our own Road here without cutting down any trees um I think we're trying to forge our own road to kind of make this hybrid blend right to make it Ashland right and I think that's going I think it's very I think it's going to be difficult but I think at the end of the day we'll probably get a byla that fits our community

194a little bit better than just saying hey let's just steal one from another community and and try to and try to make it us you know what I mean I mean try to try to kind of you know just make it fitting into the bylaws because at the end of the day if we do that it's not going to get us to our goal which is really against the commercial you know the the commercial development right and so that's that's my answer I would say in a nutshell thinking about how to P like how to get a tree bylaw through and pass town meeting I think the things that the community is going to care about are is exactly that it's not the tear down we're not yeah we don't have the same objectives right

195this community is very concerned about you know large developments a ton of construction you clearing large parcels and so I think like a clean very clear as clean as possible as straightforward as possible bylaw is how we get this through town meeting where we say to people like this this is the purpose we are not saying that if your house was built in 1961 and you want to clear trees for an addition that you need to this this does not apply to you this this applies to you know a far fraud situation where you know there's going to be a gigantic development in C well except site plan approval covers public projects that have a site plan approval so I think we have to figure out if for public projects we're going to create some

196sort of special exception I for one I'm strongly against it I don't think any kind of special exception is necessary I think that the spaces we have that are public where there's trees I think there's enough Community value interest in trying to protect them that it's worth the quote unquote burden um I personally think it that's worthwhile for town meeting discussion I'm comfortable handing that over to the people of Ashland and if the people of Ashland say hey no we don't want public properties to be impacted then we're going to have a problem passing this but I'm I I believe that that should be not my decision or the planning board's decision but the town meeting decision no I agree when when I'm saying I think think we need the a very clean straightforward simple

197proposal I I would say I lean against sort of the waivers or the exceptions for that reason um yeah my my thought is that if we say to people here's this great you know public policy that we want to deter sort of these very very large developments and these this clear cutting of what's left in our community but here's this waiver I think that's not going to go over quite as well I think it's not a way where it's a special permit right and I think that's the way you it's it's not a qual waiver it's a subdivision waiver but it would be a special permit which is a higher burden and I think within that you could break out if you did decide to go that route you could break out elements of of

198what what you could limit the possibilities you know and so I think you can kind of Flesh that out and yeah you know I know you guys haven't asked my opinion so I'm not going to give it on this one but if you do I will please please tell us what you think I agree with Marcelo and Trisha that a public project or a project of a scale is look if something's coming in it's a big development right the town is going to reap ta you know New Growth taxes right I wouldn't want to stag I wouldn't want to sty me a development right because of a a development that's going to be well planned that's going to replace a number of trees and it's going to give the community new growth and in new

199growth opportunities for a number of years right by short siding myself and saying you know what I can't you know I'm not going to work and I'm not going to do business I'm not going to I'm not going to work with you right and I'm not going to work with you and your financing package right to allow you to move forward with a development of a of a large scale construction that has a very wellth thought out Landscaping plan with implementation of trees throughout out to kind of say hey this I'm not you know I'm going I'm going to apply this to to 100% I I appreciate the the political kind of or policy view but I you know as a town resident I disagree I think that ultimately there's more to development than tax

200revenue and development reflects Community Values um development reflects the purpose of this bio the way it's drafted it's very much consistent with net with Net Zero with our our values in Ashland to move us towards a more sustainable future and if we continue to kind of prioritize tax tax funding over those issues we're going to have bigger problems there is an expense and a financial cost to not caring about sustainability or trying to weigh tax money over that so there there's got to be a different way to approach this and it's not one versus the other yeah I'm not I'm not worried about anything about like that today I think we can go through and create a a bylaw like you said that is simple and straightforward I'm just saying that um whenever you start

201to look at things in a vacuum and I chair the sustainability committee right like I I get the things that we're looking for there but you can never look at any of those things in a vacuum it just it's not it's not real it doesn't work that way so no matter how you want to go charging in to save the world with this particular thing you I look at my house right I'd love to put solar panels up in my house but I got to cut down some of those damn trees first right because it sh they shade my roof right so there's which one's better which one's more important which one's better for the Earth which one's better for the environment no one can give you that answer right so even that very simple

202example it's just more complicated than that so it's okay right to to kind of put for something very straightforward but I'll I'll always assume that there's going to be something coming up that someday not around the corner that's going to question the um validity of that and the approach that was taken this you kind is in the money the solution is in the money you've got to make it financially viable so that it changes Behavior rather than quote unquote punishes right and so there is a compromise there where as long as our mitigation costs and replacement is flexible we can find a medium that our community where we are valuing both we're we're valuing the value of moving towards net zero and at the same time we're not being overly burdensome on reasonable development right

203so there is there is a way and the way is right here I think we we're going to want to be more like Welsley and make make this more affordable for developers I think we're we're going to want to be really flexible so that replacing trees is easy marchie did you want to I assumed you would come to the mic if you wanted to speak I didn't think I was allow to speak oh you're definitely allowed to speak anyone's always allowed to speak I have so many points pass hours ago oh well come up to the mics I don't think I can piece it all together but come up and say the things that you are most Forefront in your mind the top whatever you want to do the top of I'm sorry that you

204didn't think that you could speak um you're going to have to speak to come up to the mic though just to and I just want to make sure everyone knows that this memo was to just provide color background to at least get the conversation rolling great how it has so great work sorry I I have a question I'm a little confused when you're talking about these public buildings that are on large properties I don't know what the setbacks are in a case like that and we're only covering the setbacks right we not saying anything about cutting trees in the middle is just for subdivision the site plan approval would be approval site so it would cover the entire site yeah okay I didn't realize that yeah I to think about that I'm reading this site

205plan approval means the whole CH Am I Wrong Peter no I agree I concur I concur so uh and I would like it to be that way unless you're saying that's a bad idea no I just didn't I wasn't aware so I had I haven't given any thought I figured site planine approval means we'll pick one recent one this one that we had today their entire site right now must have a bunch of trees the whole thing all of it would be covered that's my reading of it I would concur and it would be the the entire site you know I think I think that's the whole idea that's the only way to prevent CLE otherwise you're only preventing it around a little section so if the purpose is clearcut prevention there's no other way

206to do it other than kind approval that applies to the entire okay I'm going to throw out something that has not been discussed at all that's just like I'm just throwing out something weird what would you think about having a clause that says um that clear cutting is prohibited and then you have to Define clear cutting so you have to pick a percentage of a heavily would a lot that would be you know that you would find acceptable there actually are a couple bylaws that do that I mean I kind of I like that a lot because I think it makes it very fair and simple and it makes it not so personal like oh this size not this size this kind of project not this kind of project it makes it a lot more

207consistent with the greater purpose which is clear cutting so I personally like that approach but I haven't seen that draft I didn't think it would go over well so it's just been floating in my mind and not down in words I think it's great it simplifies it I think it makes it very fair because it's like our purpose is to avoid clear cutting we don't really care what kind of project it is here's a percentage that we like unless you want to start defining percentages for subdivisions or this that so are you were you saying that like okay here's my lot it's covered with trees the percentage is 25% I'm allowed to cut 25% to put my my building or my house or anything after that I'm gonna have to go through this is that

208what you're saying I'm just trying to understand no no well I haven't thought it out completely I mean I I wouldn't let go of um what we have because I think for example in a residential Lena subdivision I think it's really important that the setback areas remain wooded because people like to have privacy between their homes yeah I'm just trying to understand what it what it is you can you repeat that again what you you said then what the about the percentage well I was thinking that there would be a separate Clause that would say a certain percentage of a heavily wooded area must be retained and it might be 25% might be 35% sorry I was thinking the opposite 25% could be cleared and that it could go either way depending on what you

209decide as appropriate so essentially we would look at Ashland we would pick areas we have left and we would say we would Define what clear cutting means a certain percentage means clear cutting that's what we're trying to prevent and so if your lot has this many if your lot is this much full it's almost like a little table if your lot is this much full we want to protect this piece so that we retain and we prevent clear cutting it's almost like a mathematical formula we've got 100 trees we want to protect so clear cutting means cutting 80% of them so if your project Cuts 80% you can't do that essentially I think we're getting to the point where given the time that we need to wrap up you know for the evening so what

210what comes next with this um it' be interesting to at least understand one if you've come across one of these bylaws that it's a percentage now that we're kind of getting into the weeds with uh this method to understand the percentage method if that's um you know just if if there's an example you have or is there recording from this discussion okay I'd like to watch the recording and get all my notes down and share them with you okay yeah there are I mean I was going to suggest these points in this memo are are really helpful and and if we as a planning board can kind of come up to some sort of consensus as to where we are in each point I think that would be beneficial so that if you end up

211working with this draft you at least have some closure on a few issues I think hearing your thoughts tonight was super helpful to me to to understand more of you know what what your positions are yeah so I think very helpful and I mean that it does affect us but it's really the community we're just trying to get the best that we think can pass right but I also um I'm going to say this again about timeline right this is spring 24 I I think everyone Loosely agreed to that that that's what we want um and so we really you're talking no later than march to have something by the time of the public hearing process about that to be prepared so I agree so we do need to talk about work plan and dates

212and like expectations to get there well what format could I respond if you know if I put together can I can I propose like something for the planning board like to me I don't know why we can't just kind of try to reach some consensus on this stuff like I for one would be happy with 10 i' love love six but I think 10 will pass or eight either eight or 10 as far as size should pass a town meeting I can I ask you why you think that that people at town meeting would be so concerned about the size of the because I think to the point of expense to the developers I think that in ashin will have a lot of weight I think Ashland cares about trees but also wants to try

213to be friendly to some development so I think it's a I think the size thing is going to relate to how burdensome this is for Developers so although I would love six I think ashin is probably going to land somewhere between 8 and 10 that's my perspective I don't think we need to reach consensus on that kind of detail tonight I don't think we it's just getting too late I think I think you can write a bylaw that has 6 8 10 and we'll Circle the right one when we decide what it is right if if that's the method we're we're going to use so I'm not sure we can I think it's too late that we're getting to any point of consensus it sounds like you're like I got a lot of information to

214digest here yeah but how should I present my responses to you I think you should I mean I think you should modify the bylaw according to I mean working with Peter or whatever to keep modifying the bylaw according to what you think you are hearing from the planning board and what and what you believe right that's I think it's all about modifying the bylaw and modify there were things that you raised that that there are answers to that you don't know I mean I I I don't think it's that complex to say that there seems to be I heard consensus somewhat that we want to Value the trees but also find a way to be flexible with developers and there seem to be nodding when I mentioned the idea of keeping the replacement cost low

215like wesle or below and making it super easy to replace and plant trees to kind of be very flexible with the definition of what replace placement of tree is okay I have to say one thing so this thing about punishment it's it's a deterrent so developers take down trees that they don't need to take down because it's easier so that monetary value is a deterrent for them to leave the trees don't need to go so again unless the planning board as a whole thinks that we should go forward and still try to reach some kind of consensus on things I personally think I'm going to leave it to okay Margie and yeah Peter I'll P I can work yeah to take the comments here and take it the next step the next step forward which

216may not be perfectly in consensus yet but we'll get there so be possible for you to make a list of the issues that you think really need to be discussed and share that with me based on what you've read yeah I think so I mean maybe we can summarize something and actually pass it around to the board to get responses back to Peter um I keep playing with this thing um on on to make sure everything's included on that list that we thought was important so we'll come to we'll we'll do our thing to get information to Peter and he'll get it to you okay so all right okay thank you and please please make sure you let us know you want to speak next time I'll try to be more aware I okay get

217tired this time of night and don't do so good okay so thank you Margie we will make progress all right so where are we uh reports on planning board topics please tell me Peter that you have nothing for item six yeah I have nothing for item six thank you not to influence anybody reports from board members and town panel our comprehensive plan we have something on that I think that uh there is a PowerPoint presentation that was presented by the consultant at the steering committee meeting which passed around which summarizes public engagement plan it's printed out and everyone's binded that's it's on the open page yeah if you open up the binder it's on your left it's on your um that's the right hand side the most current update as you recall there was a

218joint meeting with select board where we had a a discussion about um the role of the planning board members myself and Kate relative to um the project management team following that meeting I did reach out to the project management team and requested a meeting um I did not get a response although Trisha responded and that correspondence is somewhere in here um so all I will say is I think that we're at a Crossroads in a way where I believe my interpretation and Kate's interpretation of The Next Step may be very different from Trisha's um and probably from uh the select board members who are on the project management team um I kind of took the last conversation to mean that we're going to get together and try to kind of have an adult conversation and

219work through it that's not happening um I think at this point I just have to kind of think about whether um what the Right Way Forward is because there seems to be such a disconnect between the different views that I'm I'm having a hard time seeing what a potential compromise would look like I I think you know and um obviously we just have the planning board here not the select board so they can't comment on it but I thought the conclusion at the end of that meeting was that and I certainly don't want to get into a lengthy conversation here but that we voted to maintain the current document which says that the steering committee is driving the effort that the steering committee is is talking to the consultant and the steering committee is guiding

220the project management team so I think that was what was decided on and voted that that structure still seemed that still seemed valid to the majority of the of the voters at that meeting Marcelo and Deepa you were there is was was that what was your what was your what did what did we agree on that night yeah I I think that's what we all heard but after reading Anna's email that you forwarded I wasn't I personally could not understand what was the intent of that meeting looking to progress the comprehensive plan as a project team or were you planning to set up a meeting to again discuss what we discussed so I was under the impression that we simply agreed the prior document stood I did not sense that we actually decided what the

221interpretation of that document was and I was under the impression that we would continue to have that conversation to figure things out that's how I heard it um so there seems to be some disconnect there I didn't think we voted for an interpretation I thought we voted to keep the document as is that's what I was reading the document word for word that's why I think it's a little confusing I I I totally agree I I I personally I I can't believe we're still talking about this that's just my view I think during that meeting there was an acknowledgement of a procedural set of mistakes that we going to not be repeated in the future and we ended the meeting saying that the document gives the steering committee clearly declarative the lead on the process

222and then the project management team will work with them under that leadership in whatever for the purposes of the comprehensive plan I to be honest I I I don't know I I don't have a difficulty reading that document and seeing a problem I think where the Gap is theing committee and consult who the leader is at this point Who's leading this whole thing and I think that's where I don't think the steering committee understood that project management is their support system and need something project management is right there to help them Sol it in between the meetings that we're talking about I personally meeting with a little concern that the project management team should have been there to have a help check on the steering committee because of some things that we heard there about

223how somebody is has a loud voice and some people are fening them it just defeats the whole purpose of having 28 people in a stering committee if people are be Qui and and I personally think the consultant reached out to make sure that this whole division of labor is helping her reach her Target otherwise this is going to be another fiveyear project if we derail that consultant without be the right support system so it feels like there is that challenge because I think the project management team is wearing two hats and they coming to the table the whole idea of the project management team for me is you com to the table with expertise but that time you're not a planning board member or a select board member but you're coming to the table with

224expertise and what the town needs to get this comprehensive plan to the Finish thing but I think there seems to be struggle of power going on the manag team not yes I mean there's only been one meeting of the steering committee since the meeting on the 15th and that was exact the next day the next evening right so of course of course these problems aren't cannot be sorted out in in that kind of time frame so and then of course we had the holiday so I'm still hopeful that I think we just need a little bit more time for these things to to hopefully iron out but but that is sticking with the document that was voted on and I think that was clear but having said that this is the second email generated from

225last three months trying to set up a meeting and not having a response from 50% of that project management feels a little bit stressed back at this point right it is I I think the problem we talked about communication so communication should be the thing I I think that uh the problem is that uh the initiation of the meeting if there if there is one it according to the document should be coming from the steering committee if they need a meeting to happen with is how I would read that document I I think we can move on but I just want to say I the um request that Anna sent I left the meeting thinking that was exactly what was supposed to happen people said work I think it was Deepa said the consultant should

226be so I was pretty taken aback when there was like I so I I don't know we are we are a not great place about it for sure what was that discuss the next the next um the no the the you read the email that and it was very simple I honestly thought that's exactly what we were directed to do after the meeting I I think the bottom line like you know I think arguing about the document is sort of we're past that point what what I will say is you know two things jump out at me from what I'm hearing one is the word power struggle I think is a really powerful important comment that resonates with me is something I'm reflecting upon and I have to say I'm not sure I'm the right

227person person at this point to continue in that role because of that term um and so I'm contemplating kind of how to react to it because I I was taken aback by the lack of response and that has a lot of significance to the health of the project and I certainly would not want to be um how do I phrase it the right way in the way of the success of the project and so at some point I think myself and I can't speak for Kate has to reflect upon what's the sign ific of this after that meeting and how to properly react to it so as an update I wanted you guys to be in the know of what's in my mind what's in my mind is I'm trying to figure out how to

228move forward so that I can be a productive planning board member I can support the comprehensive plan which has been key to me running for this position on the planning board that was one of my key reasons that I wanted to be in the planning board to make sure that happened and I'm trying to figure out you know how to be part of that project in a way that's consistent with what I recall voting for more than a year ago um and I do disagree with Trisha's interpretation of that past document I think there's a very strong sentence in there about data and the role of the project management team and I think whatever disagreements there are could have been resolved by a response to this to this email so it's about trust the trust

229has to happen both ways there has to be some Trust of Kate and Anna and there has to be some Trust of of the steering committee and there has to be some Trust of town staff and of the consultant and we all need to kind of be adults and I thought this was an adult thing to do um so if if there's a disconnect as a result of that maybe I'm not the right person to be in that current role that's kind of kind of where my brain is at and I'm sharing that no I think I I when I read this was like I would have expected that you would have gotten a response that that's what we talked about last time it is all about communication and the lack of communication and if

230you say that you did not get a response to this email which feels like we talked about it we talked about and I'm also curious about these recipients of this email so is that how the project management team has been communicating yes the project management team is that email right there the comp PMG project management team yep it's the entire project management team and the chairs and then Rob um and Trisha and obviously my suggestion was hey let's all the adults this is my my understanding of what the meeting was about yeah and I think and I don't think you should take this personally because I think it's not XYZ the problem it's all the members having the same issue so I think you're wanting to scale back is a different story but I think

231it's just not you right I think I I think that what's more important is less personality and more the fact that this town needs a comprehensive plan process us um and and we need to move Beyond these what I would call Petty disagreements if we're not able to be adults and actually communicate openly then there's a serious level of distrust it does feel personal because you wonder who's being distrusted right um but I think we need to move past it which is why at this point I no longer want to consider whether it's personal or not I want to put the comprehens of plan first and figure out how to move past this because I don't think anybody wants to spend two years in this kind of dynamic I think it's really about when we

232talk about empowering that's really about empowering the two co-chairs who are the head of the steering committee and they are the ones that should be leading this effort and I'm not sure yet given that they are so new that they fully understand that they are the leaders of this movement they are communicating with the consultant they are guiding the project management team and that power was given to them by the steering committee as a whole so I think maybe it has been confusing for them to have this project management team and then they're the chairs of the steering committee well who is talking to the consultant right it is that kind of line of communication so I think when I got this email it was very much like we just talked about this last night

233this is not what was supposed to happen this is not in the authority of the I know you two obviously had it ex completely the opposite view of what I came off with that this is not the role of the project management team to call a meeting and then invite the consultant and the chairs to it that's opposite of what should be happening and so that's where I was with this so to me it was it was a very surprising email to receive when I would have been waiting for that to come out of the chairs to you you know to direct that but I'm not sure like but I'm not sure they're empowered yet to understand that that is their role I think that's what I thought the kind of agenda of this meeting

234was that she was asking right I think people needed to understand their roles and that's why Anna's email very clearly invites all those members to the table let's talk about it which I feel should have been the natural Next Step because I don't think the steering committee co-chairs feel like they have the power and we had a long discussion that and I don't think that would have like okay I'm the leader of this 40 people I'm getting out from there I don't think in concluded that the two coaches definitely did not think the discussion was project management that night because they had their own list of steering committee challenges which I think it's really important to get a health check um but again I'm just surprised I'm sorry Anna you're going through this do do

235you think did you think that me would have been an opportunity to empower the two chairs and to set the line of communication in I think she's invited the the co-chairs and the consultant which is the right thing to do and then talk with the project management right to clear the whole thing to make sure that who's setting the agenda this is what we have from this document that we approved way back I don't know if the consultant knows this kind of that I'm not sure either a good that's a great point but but I I I I think all all of it is right yeah and and as I said before I I I'm I think I don't want to start assuming what why people didn't answer or not because I don't know I'm

236not in their heads I I think we came out of that meeting but there was a lot of discussion and different people with different viewpoints which is normal a a a a very harsh kind of bump on the road that originated all this the goal I thought in the meeting was to go over that maybe just maybe it was just a matter of timing we come out of this meeting late I don't remember the time but it was late there was a he discussion some people wanted to get rid of the project management we ended up voting to keep in the document as it was the next meeting was exactly the following day so to me in terms of timing if there is if there is this concern because the first thing I want is

237that Kate and Anna are successful on helping this process because we all believe is important but maybe if if at that meeting just one day after during the discussion I don't know if it's the way it goes there it was not on the agenda so could it you mean on the staring committee yeah I'm saying I think we were within the public uh public meeting law there was no way that could have been added then it could have been added for the next one I'm just saying that to me the the the process that that would deescalate this discussion would have been okay we agreed we voted for keeping things the way they are please let's put in the agenda as soon as possible to discuss the these leadership of theing committee whatever but before

238the opportunity for that to happen this email was sent as seemed to me that maybe it was taken as as protracting and and and and going back into the discussion that we had the night before maybe I I don't think the email is there's anything wrong with it and I wish they had been answered to say um let's put it on the agenda for the next meeting right I think it's better and and I and I totally empathize on how Anna is feel in because it it it touches you personally by default but I think in the with the with the idea of moving this forward and making this successful that step still not unattainable we still can that conversation still can happen it just yeah the the email was not responded okay if we

239get past that for a second and say okay how can we make that happen I would say let's get this conversation on the streaming committee and empowering their leaders I totally agree as soon as possible it's it's a tough beginning but I don't think we need to take take a lot more than what the facts are even though they they they are difficult at times to to to to get I I I don't think this is like an end of the road I think it's this this whole thing is the beginning of that road and and I wish that that maybe the leaders in the steering committee take it that way so that moving forward Anna and Kate are always Consulting when appropriate and and everybody has the right to put things on the agenda

240which was one of the other concerns um if that's not happening for whatever reason but the only the only stage where that is going to be successful is there I I think maybe the email was not the stage that the other people were hoping even though was well intentioned and that's that I think that makes sense I think that explanation makes a lot of sense 15 days is a lot of time do not respond about first week of December meeting which I think I understand I mean you said it on 16 we probably Hade whatever was but it's a lot of time I would have felt offended if I was in their place because this is the second one to have not put their the agenda I I think this is though I mean and

241we're just going to get to meeting minutes in but I think this is the it's indicative of the culture of the project management group from the beginning right and the whole group group I'm not talking you know um and so um yeah so it's not like those that's going to change between that Wednesday night meeting and a Thursday morning email so I think we should uh I think we should wrap that up here I think um yeah we're getting late um I don't have any other updates that need to be made before the meeting minutes do you have anything else that needs to be Chase Bank do you need to mention that or no it's on the agenda I think I sent it out I think I sent a link to all the the the

242uh material something we cannot discuss tonight but obviously Chase Bank is submitted to take over the space of mazy's restaurant I'm sorry Chase Bank to take over Mazy Mazy is closing Mazy would be closing okay okay sad but true it's Mazi so there's a a application pending now for it's been submitted we're going to open on December 14th for site plan review uh a change of use trigger by change of use um and we'll be reviewing the site plan uh for that application but all things were all all application materials online and just kind of give you heads up on what's going on out there so other than that I think I can skip all other updates all right anyone else have any updates that need to take place tonight did you have one Amanda

243from the I was going to say um we the regional collaborative met this morning and um it was it was a really great meeting I think I don't want to take a ton of time tonight but um the substance of the meeting was on um MBTA communities and it was um all the towns went sort of through where they stand and the approach that they're taking Lots um going forward at Springtown meeting so I think we'll have some data points um also lots of good information about resources that the collaborative has um to assist and it's everything from like assessing you know options for locations and um you know looking at your existing zoning to um preparing for town meeting I mean it's really like Soup To Nuts the assistance that they say that they

244can provide and they they've indicated they're working with a number of communities um so I think there's a lot of great resources available they're going to circulate a deck and I can certainly send that across to everybody um from what they presented today great thank you all right meeting minutes from October 12 I think the changes I have are pretty simple yeah what tab was that on I had it under I still had it un tab one don't know my full name more alphabets I have Circle yeah um line 33 uh Greaves is missing an S well CU I do have an edit but it would be helpful oh I had need to b a right on it it's um okay so the clerk report um I I don't remember saying that I know I

245I occasionally bungle it a little bit but I tell you but I literally went and listened to it so the second sentence of that should just be struck because the only thing I said was there were four public correspondents I'm not sure how that got in there but sometimes I think think they start from old yeah but I did listen to it so oh and then I think in the very last what was it last page line um it's a small thing that but line 125 and maybe it was the way it was said but um Mr zuk repointed that the two co-chairs were appointed but that should be elected I assume and then [Music] um on under 100 Chestnut Street it talks about M the mural applications which should be under Starbucks M um

246and that's that's all I [Applause] have does anyone else have any changes I'll make the motion I'll make a motion to accept or approve the October 12th 2023 minutes with the changes proposed I'll second roll Anna tki iel I Katherine Jersey guy uh Trisha Kendall um so if there's that's approved is there a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn at 10:45 p.m. and a second second that roll call vote Anna tki I Marcel I Katherine Jersey I Amanda I and Trisha Kendall I so we are adjourned how many are there three John what's that done