001union without a quorum at this point, but we are just going to be discussing things without no action. Without any action. Okay. Okay. So, the the only item on the agenda is H4. I think Elizabeth, I don't know if you were able to give us an update on um what you know, Larry and I have been trying to watch as many of the sessions as we as we can during a super busy time of year. I know. I don't know. No, it's okay. It's important. Um but I'm not sure if we're up to date on everything. So, um whatever you can share would be helpful. Uh actually, um the committee of conference is meeting right now at 1:00. So, um I'm not even completely up to date. They have been kind of peacemailing through and
002then going back and um you know exchanging proposals and they haven't been very faithful to the times that they have set aside for their meetings. Um but uh I can give you uh an update as of 9:30 this morning. Um, okay. So, just for those who don't know everything that's in the bill currently, I'm just going to give a brief overview of um I'm just looking down at my notes, so I'm if I'm not looking right at the screen, that's why. Um, okay. Starting with the foundation formula, which is a basic amount of money that would be given to um each school or district in the state for uh accounting for each student. Foundation formula would apply to every single school both um public and private. It would not go into effect currently as it
003stands as of 9:30 this morning. It would not go in effect into effect until the 2027 2028 um school year and uh it would be a base amount and then public schools could apply for what are called opportunity payments of up to 10% over the foundation formula. Private school private and independent schools I'm just going to refer to as independent schools. um private and independent schools could apply for up to 5% more, but they would actually have to show a need for it and be transparent about that need instead of just uh applying for extra spending. Um although I I would note that um there is currently no way to um discover what independent schools spend their money on. So, um uh the opportunity payments originally were proposed to h uh those payments were proposed
004by the Senate to go into a fund um that would fund school construction. That is no longer the case. They will now go into a fund that will buy down the tax rate. Um uh okay. This morning they were Hold on. Yep. Elizabeth, hang on. U that statement sort of confused me about what the opportunity payments are for. So the opportunities, yeah, the opportunity payments are are um so you would get every district would get a base rate per student and then if a if a district wanted to um fund up to 10% beyond that, that would be funded locally and would go into the education fund or or now a separate fund that would buy down the tax rate. Um, so but if they're applying for a 10% to pay more for students, then
005how would that go into funding for the students? How would that go to the school districts? If it goes into the fund to buy down the tax rate, I don't know the answer to that question, Bill. Okay. I'm sorry. Sorry. Well, if Okay, say Windsor Southeast needs I know I know what question you're asking. I don't know the answer to it, though. Um, okay, hang on. Here, I'm gonna just put in the chat. Uh, here is a link to the bill as of this morning. Um, okay. I don't know the answer to that question. Let let me just get through all of this and then I can um this morning they removed the entirety of section 12 which was um a section that put guard rails on uh what would happen in a district that
006closed one of its schools. Uh previously it had a requirement that um that it uh students go to only in existing independent schools. That's been taken out. Um if an independent school was close in proximity to or you know and there was no public school. Um previously it required that students automatically go to a public school if if there was one in proximity. that's been taken out. Um so everything about school closure and uh guidelines around school closure has been taken out that whole section. Uh uh they this morning they changed um the uh uh class minimum class size minimums. Um uh they this morning they excluded kindergarten and uh uh they extended the class size minimums to all schools including independent schools. Um again there is no way to no uh statutory way to
007verify the size of classes in independent schools. So that'll be really hard to actually do. But uh they also um changed the uh class size um time average. Previously it was class sizes over the average of two years and it is now class sizes over the average of three years. Um for I think I said that kindergarten is now exempt from class sizes. uh first grade would have a minimum of 10 students across the board. And uh uh now um the if a school is violates class- size minimums then the uh now the secretary of education may um address the school in terms of school closure instead of shall um uh the um current or the bill as of this morning does not require a 4,000 student minimum. It is a it is now generally
008and not mandated. Um that will be uh those districts will be decided by retired superintendent and um some legislators. I think four legislators, two from each the House and Senate. Should I heard six, Elizabeth? Just in our six. Um, so it is a majority of legisl legislators and less educators on that committee. Yep. Yep. Uh uh homestead exemptions have been restructured so that uh uh they now exclude uh the first $400,000 of property value and um the income income exclusion um is currently in flux. So, it has um it has ratcheted down over the last five years. Five years ago, it was 142,000. This past year was 125,000. And I think they're going to try to move it back up. So, that um is that right? No, they they this version of the bill has
009um uh income sensitivity of 100,000. Um so it's it's still going down but they are going to study it. Um uh they have created a new tier of taxation for second homes or uh non-h homesteads and those exclude um long-term rentals. They do not exclude short-term rentals but they do exclude long-term rentals. And uh uh the commission on the future of public education in Vermont will be responsible for um uh creating a process for public input on school closures. and uh they all have been pretty adamant about um addressing the CTE funding program uh problem um in the next session because the way that CTE are funded that's career and tech technical education centers um the way those are currently funded uh is haphazard in our it's not systematic in our state currently. So, they
010do plan to address that. They kind of went back and forth on it for a while. Um, but they plan to nail it down in the next session. And let's see, the the bill as of this morning allows for both supervisory districts and supervisory unions. The reason for that is that there are currently supervisory unions that include um a multitude of structures including somewhat school choice like in our supervisory union. Um and so they they uh plan to preserve that. And uh and um just to explain a little bit further about the opportunity grants or whatever you want to call them. Um uh those are um funding that can can be applied for by the supervisory union or supervisory district. um as it is as it will those will be around 4,000 or more um
011students. Uh that would tr like if there was no opportunity grant applied for then there would be no vote on the budget because the students would receive the foundation formula. If any any uh school or uh in the district or if the district applies for additional funding then there would be a public vote. Um the uh uh so that would likewise be the case if the supervisory district included um an independent school. I think that's about it for the general. Um, do you have any other notes, Christine? Um, well, I guess I guess we, you know, I we have some question about um the fact that CTE is not addressed and special ed's not addressed in this bill and what that means at all in the future. Yeah, I mean those are those are concerns.
012Um, I don't think in the bill I mean I think We have questions about um the you know the cost savings is will this really will this really create a cost savings or or not? Um we've definitely taken note that there's been a lot of time spent it feels like a lot of time spent in in committee on negotiations around independent schools. Yep. And um you know that seems a little bit strange since we're talking about public public school. I mean it feels like public school concerns they're going to get dealt with later and independent schools, you know, they're really at the forefront of the negotiations. Um it's not really surprising considering the makeup of the the uh Senate side of of this. I mean, I guess I guess I'm voicing some of the some
013of the concerns I have about about this bill. um in the in the process. So one one thing that um that uh dilutes the potential savings overall is that uh they now have in the bill the money following the student. So uh even if a that means that even if a school closes the same amount of money will follow the student wherever they go. So it doesn't really imply any true savings right at all. None of the none of the drivers of cost have been addressed in any way in this bill. Um and uh those being special ed and healthcare. Um they have they were never mentioned in the bill. They are switching to a a statewide calendar. Um although I think it's in 2027 2028 um they took out the unfortunately I'm not sure
014why but somewhere along the line I think the Senate proposal removed the uh switching the um uh financial calendar unfortunately. Okay. So the December letter will still be the December letter. Okay. Yeah. I mean I I guess you know as reflecting on it and it's coming fierce and fast and um you know we have some concerns as is uh the current version. Yeah. So my concerns are um first understanding what how the um opportunity funding works. Um I mean I understand why they did that because it's wait let me let me take a step back here in the base amount do they consider any poverty factors or any other factors or is base net? Yes it is the base amount plus um the weight pupil waiting factors. Okay. Um they're not the same though. They're
015not the same as they currently are. That's right. Oh, I know. But at least there's some sort of weight in there because you know educating a student in Barry is significantly different than educating a student in Woodstock. Um yeah and also um uh oh they are going to um decide whether they're going to study whether it costs more to educate a high school student or not. And uh based on that they will either increase that weight or not. Currently it's not in there. So another question I have Yeah. Another question I have is how they define a class for the class size minimum because there's often high school classes for an example that are either based on an independent study. So being a data administrator at Hartford, when the superintendent asks me what's the average
016class size at the high school, it's a really hard calculation to make because I have all these classes with one or two students in them because they're either independent studies or special classes or they pulled out student to last language the last language I saw Bill said core classes at the high school. Yeah, it it doesn't include special classes, specialized classes in high school or upper level classes in high school if that helps. So, there's a question in the chat from Megan, which is, "What are the class minimums? How will it affect the schools in RSU?" So, they've taken kindergarten off the table because it's not required. First grade, uh, is it first through third? Is it was 10 or when when did it go up? Uh I think it's first through third or 10
017and then I think it's 12 uh four to something and then 15 and then 18 in high school I believe. Yeah. So I think they lowered that to 15 but uh so Megan's asking will it affect schools in RSU? Yes, it will. I believe although I don't I mean average three years over time we'd have to we'd have to look at it. Um, so so, so I want to mirror what Christine said and then take another far. Three things that are pretty significant within this bill that is left out is special education, healthcare, and construction. Um, and I think at some point they have to attack those elephants in the room. And if they want savings, construction has to be addressed. If you're going to get more students on a fewer roof, you have to
018build schools to do that. And so, and if they can somehow tie construction to consolidation as an incentive, then they're going to make progress in the savings. If they're not, then basically then you're just shuffling the money around. I think that's what you were implying, Elizabeth, is that the whole the money goes with the student and all this does is it ties the town's hands or the district's hands on how much they can spend on a student. It now goes almost completely into the uh state's control. And when you're dealing with a dysfunctional department of education, which I've this is nothing new for me saying the department of education is completely dysfunctional, um then that really makes no sense to take towns almost completely out of it. I I I totally agree and I I
019think you know going a little bit further I think it is utterly irrespons like during act 46 which lasted almost two years two years for our supervisory union during act 46 we had a totally functional agency of education and it and at that time it was complete trauma traumatic chaos. Yeah. Um and we now don't have a functional agency of education to the point that um when we pass laws in the legislature we uh we discount having an agency of education. I mean it's that dysfunctional and so um the idea of having a move towards consolidation without having an a functional agency of education I think is completely irresponsible and belies the inexperience in education of uh of the people on the conf committee conference. Yeah. So I think maybe if you can tie and
020I know you can't do this but if the legislation can tie something into benchmarks of improvement for the agency of education if the ed a agency of education can do x y and z this next step of the bill can move forward if the agency of education can show x y and z. So they have I mean they have a data job to do basically and they're not doing it. And so if there's a committee and one of my points here is that um educational experts should be equal to those of the legislature. That's that's a basic requirement I think on on the task force. On the task force yeah you need to have Yep. Yeah. I mean, I I personally think it should be all based on educational experts, but you know, I know
021that battle's not going to win. Um, I also I should point out that uh they did get into the bill a restructuring of the um state board of education. um which means that it would be uh I think three gubanatorial appointments including and and the students and then uh one appointment each from the house and senate which is new and an improvement. Um Yes, John. Um just I I'm I'm sure that all of you know this but committee of conference report we can't make any changes and say either an up or down vote. So when it comes out we either have to say yes no and we can always take it back and say you got to create a new conference committee and try again. But we can't make um the kind of subtle changes
022that we'd like to see. Right. So I John I think that's a very good point and a point that I understand. So I think the point of bringing these things up is that when Elizabeth asked for this, she wanted to know our opinion, how he wanted to vote. And at this point, the minimum requirements of this bill. Uh uh the which would be the expertise in the agent of education to make it happen, a reasonable timeline to make the transition. um and um uh dealing with special education on some level, health care and construction. Those are the minimum requirements. And so that would lead to a basic no vote in the committee on or you would vote no, Bill, if you were there. I would vote no. Yeah. Yeah, I would vote no. Larry has
023hand up. I don't know if you can see him, but he has his physical hand up in the room. Oh, I can't see him. Oh, hi Larry. Hey, can I give my thoughts please? Yeah. So, this is uh for John and for Elizabeth. This is just my thoughts um not representing you know the SU but Act 153 was passed in 2010 that centralized HR and uh transportation, the business office, special ed at the SU level. Act 166 was universal prek that was passed in 2014. Act 46 was a consolidation law you referred to earlier which was passed in 2015. Act 73 173 was a special education law which was passed in 2018. Act 72 was a facilities law which was passed in 2021. Act 127 is the educational financial reform which was passed uh three
024years ago. And then act universal 64 was universal meals passed in 2023. Um my personal feeling would be to let the cake bake and uh I think um passing such a huge change after all the changes prior um particularly with what Bill talked about at the AOE level and they would be ultimately responsible for much of the work. uh I think is um it would be akin if I was the IT director at DSU to changing going from Chromebooks in two years then now we're going to go to PCs and then two years later we're going to go to Macs and or in the financial it would be like um you know we're changing curriculum every two years right after we've trained everybody up on it the district quality standards act 27 passed go into
025effect July one and it's hard to get excited over all the work and by the way we're doing pretty well with uh when it's going to all change. Um that's one thing I had to say. The other thing was uh as far as uh tempering spending at the local level, I think the excess spending threshold does that. Um, I know it's not uh a fan of some board members as we get closer to uh printing for town report uh for the town meeting, but the excess spending threshold does set a governor on local spending and it's Hartland's decision for example whether to go under that or to spend more of that and that money could go into any other sort of fund. So I think the exit spending threshold if if the idea is to
026temper proflegate spending at the local level even when the budgets are voted on and voted up I think um I would keep that excess spending threshold going. I think it's been I think it's working. Um uh there's also it would be the local decision on the vote. When I go around town and I talk about uh this legislation, to a person, when I mention that there will be, according to the way the bills are written today, there will be no more local voting on your local budget. To a person, they hate that. I've never heard somebody come up to me and say, "Well, I really like that. That's a good idea. They should really do that." Um they say, "Wait a second. Wait a second. You mean I can't vote on my local budget?" I
027said, "No, there will be no more. you're gonna get X amount per kid and the district board will ultimately decide how to spend that along with administration. Um they do not like that. So I think that's uh a really important thing. Um I am also skeptical of central office uh savings and consolidation. Uh I think uh act 46 uh Elizabeth like you just said was passed recently and there were mergers uh mergers much bigger than Mount Scutney School District Essex Westford did it save administration costs I don't know if it did then great if it didn't or this cost savings were swallowed up by special ed or health insurance then um I would say that would be a vote on the uh negative side of the ledger. Um, my thing about the 4,000 ADM, Burlington
028is roughly 36 3,800 ADM. If if you want Burlington's ADM, you're going to get Burlington central office. That's what you're going to get. So, I just looked at it. We have uh at our SU, we have six people between the business office and HR. You probably all know them by name. Um, Burlington has 14. So, they don't have an HR person like we do. They have an HR department, right? They don't have a payroll person like we do. They have a payroll department. And I think um scale once you get up to 4,000, you know, 8,000, I think that a lot of that scale is is uh changed. Um, again, we've we had uh we had seven people at the business office and HR last fiscal year and we went down to six because we
029tried to do the right thing for the taxpayer in RSU. And um I don't know when local control is taken away how much you uh those school districts are going to be able to do that if they can't even vote on it. So th those are my thoughts. Thank you, Larry. That is really valuable input. I I really appreciate you you uh hearing those thoughts. It really does make a big difference. Thank you. There's also the question of uh you know what what running a 4,000 student district would actually look like on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. So uh one of the key points of of of of Larry's point is the time frame. you know, if you're going to make changes, then any change in education takes three to five years because you're dealing with
030people here, you know, and then in year two, you realize X, Y, and Z was just stupid. And so, and that's what's going to happen if it's a two-year time frame. We're going to go to 26, 27, and all of a sudden, you know, there there's just no time to work out the kinks. Speaking to Elizabeth's on the ground concern with a 4,000 ADM, there's a huge difference between a 4,000 ADM in three buildings, right? Elementary, middle, and high versus a 4,000 ADM spread over 60 square miles and 15 school buildings, right? So I I mean what we've been a couple of us have been pushing for um but we can't it turns out we can't do it but a couple of us have been pushing for um mandating Boseies instead of um going straight
031to a 4,000 ADM um because that would actually you know create relationships um and then if we wanted to expand to a 4,000 ADM we could do that at another time but Boseies would be a um interim uh uh measure, but uh that wasn't in the original bill and things uh that were not in the original bill cannot be introduced during a committee of conference unfortunately. So that's why that was never that idea was never really considered. Elizabeth, what are your thoughts on um so they're in committee this afternoon still working. Um I I've heard um and I don't know all the details, but I I've heard the statement. There's a lot not to like in this bill. Um and so they they still hash it out, but I know that there's been some concessions
032already that are not to like. Um, and so the votes Monday, so they're done after today. And the vote today, yeah, they hope the hope is the expectation is that today is the last day. Uh, although I just heard today for the first time that they may be going into Monday. Okay. I don't And then after the vote, I thought I heard John say it can go back to conference committee. Is that what what he's saying is that if it gets voted down so the conference what the process is that the conference committee will come out with a report on what they what each side agreed on and then we actually vote on the report. If the report gets voted down uh we can either go back and choose another conference committee or wait for
033the governor to start the whole process over again. Okay, thanks. That's helpful. And again, um there's no like it's just an up or down vote. There's no amendments. Um because that would have to include both the House and Senate and and it would include the original committees and so there it's not that's why it's not uh part of those rules. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Does anybody else have any questions or comments? Uh yeah, I would I I'd like to thank you, Elizabeth, for taking the time to explain this to us and uh seeking our input. And I'd like to thank John for for joining us and taking time to um participate. This is how government's supposed to work. Can I ask uh if any of the people who have been offscreen if they have a
034particular way or one of the things that um I have been concerned with is uh I don't want to uh I I'm been trying to consider my vote on behalf of both constituents and the supervisory union board and uh what I perceive to be the um things that are like the highest priority values in both of those groups of people. And I don't want to necessarily insert my own opinion about that. I'd rather know what people consider their because that's the that's the red line for me is violating any of those highest priority values. and uh like the fact that I um value public schools uh the protection and preservation and uh support of public schools as the highest value. That's not necessarily what everybody else values. So, um I'd really love to know uh
035where other people are are standing in that respect. Bobby Nancy, I see your hand. Yes. Um Oh, I'm in a stairwell. I I too value public schools and I value the ability of a board to govern its own schools and and and for the public to be able to vote for their schools and what what they want to spend the money on. That's that's those are my values. Thank you. I appreciate that, Nancy. Thank you. Anybody else? I I I think uh echoing Nancy, that's as a citizen uh that's a big value for me personally. I I think a rhetorical question to the legislature as a whole would be when you guys do redistricting, you change the town border. So like Donna Sweeney only represented Windsor for a long time and now Elizabeth represents Windsor
036and West Windsor and I think part of Heartland if I'm correct. West Windsor and Windsor. Yeah. Yeah. So like I think um you know that's what redistricting does. Redistricting does not go from a 100 person legislature down to 10, right? Uh that would be a significant change to uh the kind social compact or whatever that we have. And I know um there there may be uh the AOE and the um the governor and the Senate and the legislature may want to get more away from town districts and um I think the SU is a model there as far as that is. I mean rather than each town having their own superintendent, it's it's like a mini Boseies. You you each pay for a portion of the superintendent. instead of paying for all of special ed,
037you pay for a portion of special ed. So like I think um you know that might be one way around it, but I would say to the legislature rhetorically like how would you feel if you were redistricted from 80 members down to 10. Um I I think it wouldn't be a good feeling. So, and I also I you know add it add it piggybacking on that Larry I I feel like um uh if you were a business if you were a really great business and because I feel like some of the people who have been on these negotiations have treated education like a business and not a public good. So, if you treat it like a public or like a business and you were going to just uh and you had a an outlet for
038that business in every town in our state and then you just said um we're just going to close, you know, at least 20% of these outlets uh and let the chips fall where they may. What would that indicate? Would that indicate a thriving business or a business that uh uh is getting back up on its feet or would that indicate a business that is circling the drain? I mean, you would want I guess you would want to close underperforming um branches of that business, but you would have a metric. Yeah. Well, I think right what what I that's why I mentioned the district quality standards. Uh I was at a workshop in Montpelier two weeks ago and uh there is some work and we are gonna this is gonna be reported out to the SU
039board at the retreat but there is some work we need to do and and to but as far as district quality standards I went in thinking oh my gosh you know this might remake a lot of our processes inside um the SU but we you know we do a lot of things very very well. As I was going through it, I I'm like, geez, you know, this is not going to this is, you know, we're going to make easy work of this. There are some things we have to fix, but everything else from an accounting and finance standpoint, we're in really good shape. And uh yes, I guess what I'm saying to you, Elizabeth, is that the district quality standards kind of show the way. If there was some teeth to the state board of
040education to implement the district quality standards and there were underperforming districts or SUS, then you deal with those, right? Yep. Yeah. I And I just like we do. Yeah. Yeah. Agree. Um I guess I have one more thing to add, Elizabeth. Um I'm worried that um there are a lot of uh constituents, community members who are not paying attention and they're going to be pretty upset when they're um when they're told, "Nope, your child is now going here. Your school's closing." I just feel like there hasn't been enough community input um on this on this bill and I just think people are going to be really surprised and they're going to be really upset. I think you know I I think we did a good job in this as you around the merger but I
041know there are um districts that are still working through the merger under Act 46 and there are still hard feelings and anger and frustration. Um, and I think, you know, we're you're we're not a business. We're a public good. We're in the business of people. And the people matter and what they think matters and what they feel matters. And I think I just think I I I think it's going to be disastrous if we don't do it right and well and with a lot of care and time and intentionality and feedback and input. I totally agree with you, Christine. I feel like the, you know, the all of this ignores the fact that education is like top to bottom and side to side based on relationships and none of this in any way tends to
042those relationships. Yeah. Well, thank you for what you're doing and for allowing, you know, getting us together. I think it's it's fast moving and um it's helpful to sit and talk through it. So, I appreciate your advocacy there and I hope we've helped you and John and anyone else. You really have a lot and I I really appreciate you um you giving us your thoughts. I know it's not a lot of people, but it's it's a much greater sample than just John and me. And uh I think we've done a pretty good job here of keeping people up to speed on what's going on and what what potential changes there might be. I will note that while we've been on here for the last 44 minutes, I've received 60 text messages. So, I think they're
043probably back at it right now. Um, I will uh I'll make sure to I mean one thing that's really interesting is that um I asked my husband to he has all of the AI um subscriptions and I asked him to take the um the bill and because it's 157 pages long or something like that um I asked him to take it and run it through with these particular prompts that I can't access because I I don't have a uh subscription. These particular prompts like comparing the um comparing uh facet the most important facets of the bill to other states and uh there like not one piece of the bill is like in other states. Um, and in fact, and I asked I asked it to um consider because it's such a long document, I asked
044it to compare certain facets of the bill to outcomes in other states. And it it it actually gave several warnings on um consolidation in a short period of time, which we already know. Um and that's not even considering I46 or the other the other things that we have. Uh and the other thing is that speaking of the two biggest cost drivers um that uh it doesn't include removing some of the things from um some of the drags on the ed fund um which would still cost but they would not be property taxes. Uh so anyway, um that's where we are. Thank you so much for for uh coming and yeah, and we'll get and we'll get this video out on the website as soon as possible. Okay. I want to thank everyone too for for
045the input and I I haven't heard anybody on this in this meeting um come forward and say this is a great bill. We encourage you to vote yes. I have not received a single email saying please vote yes. Does anybody want to jump in and say yeah we you should vote yes. Yeah. Okay. Good. I mean that's where we are. Not good anyway. Okay. Well when we get to a final we'll let you know how it goes. Okay. I will call this meeting I will call this non meeting to close because we I don't think we had a quorum anyway. So thank you again for this. Thanks Christie. Thanks Larry. Yeah. Thank you. Bye for now.