001Okay, just waiting for Curtis to give me a thumbs up. >> All right, we're good to go. >> Great. Thank you, Curtis. Uh, welcome everybody to the uh building use and visioning committee uh September 30th meeting. It's our first meeting of the 2526 school year. Thank you all for being here. Um, so let's go ahead. I'm going to We had an agenda set out last week, so I'll be looking for a motion uh to approve the agenda. >> I'll make that motion. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I Great. Uh, also thank you uh for linking the minutes uh to our last meeting, which was March 11th. Uh, did not seem that long ago. Um, but I'll be looking for a motion to approve the minutes of March 11, 2025. >> I'll make that
002motion, too. >> We have a second. >> I'll second. >> Great. Thanks, Steve. Uh, all in favor? >> I. >> Uh, next on the agenda, we need to designate a recording secretary for the meeting. Um, Mike, how does this usually work? I don't recall us doing this list. We usually have somebody who takes the minutes. It's just to formalize who's doing that. >> I'm terrible at that. That's my excuse. >> Emily looks like she's really good. >> Emily, is that Yes, Emily. I got it. >> Emily is so good at knowing. >> No, >> you know what? I'm I'm not on the committee, so I'll do it. >> Thank you, Steve. >> I appreciate that, sir. Always wonderful. >> Uh, okay. us. Uh Steve Rosenberg will be the recording secretary for the meeting. Um for
003the board members present, we have Ashley Woods, the chair. Um myself, JB Weir, we have Steve Rosenberg from Moretown. Um and we have Emily Doolof as well from Ducksberry, right? Yep. Um I don't see Cindy here. Is that right? >> Uh she might be coming, but carry on. I'm going to text her right now to make sure she knows how to do that. >> Um And then uh of the well we have Dr. Mike Ray Dagel maintenance um Lisa Esler our CFO uh and then members of the public we have um Cam, David and Caleb from Trueex. Thanks a lot guys for taking the time again to join us. Um, and I'm going to see here. I can't see. >> It looks like like eight members of the public, including our uh reporter from the
004Waterbury Roundabout. >> Okay. >> So, uh, we have basically seven members of the public plus the press. >> Okay, sounds good. >> Great. Um, okay. Uh, so I'm just going to we're going to open up public comment for the next uh 15 minutes or so if members of the public wish to speak. Uh, I'm just going to add before if there are any, um, I do have, uh, the meeting is going to go to 7:30. I do have a hard stop right around then. I am single parenting this week and I need to get to Waterbury to pick up my daughter. So, but I I think we can do it. I think we can stick to the agenda even if we're a couple minutes late. So, um, I guess yes, I'd like to open up
005to the public and uh see if they had uh any sort of comments uh before the meeting is going. So if you have any comments just raise your virtual hand and uh we will promote you to a panelist and recognize you. So we have Beth, Katherine Nen, Haley Mango, Langford Davidson, Mish Barren who's a teacher at Morttown, Nicole Angel, and Sparty and JB. I'm not seeing any hands raised. >> Great. Okay. Well, that's good. And I'm sure we'll have more questions. Uh I think um we received this report last week. Uh it it looks it's very detailed and I think it's a great uh body of work from from Trux. I think you know we're kind of here this evening to uh go over it uh with with with Trux's lens on to see uh
006how it came to be, what they put into it and and uh what we're going to um our our next steps after that. So I think I'm sure we'll have all have lots of questions uh at upcoming meetings. So, I appreciate the public being here and and urge them all to continue to come to these meetings uh because we know questions will arise. So, uh great. Well, with that, let's get into the meat of the meeting uh and that's reviewing and discussing the facilities assessment assessments uh with a presentation by Shu X Collins. And I'll give you guys the floor. >> Great. Uh thanks. Hi everyone. Um Caleb's going to walk us through um the presentation. The um and you can stop at any time. We you know the process was that we assembled a
007team of engineers. We visited the schools. Uh we wrote each engineer wrote their report for the areas they were responsible for. and we'll be releasing a full written report that will have even more detail than what you see tonight. Um, so if you ever have trouble sleeping, um, this is a great document. No, it's it's really full of information, but I just want to remind everybody it's a snapshot in time. um you know there might be work done tomorrow or this summer or whatever that you know is on the list here. Sometimes things arise that aren't on in the report. Um so you know bear that in mind the the um the the dollar amounts. So what we've done is in the report there's the each item is described um then its condition is described
008and then there's a recommendation for um if there's any upgrades required um and what we're what we're looking for is what we in gener generically say you know these are the things that would modernize the building either it's and there's three categories there's priority one and two and three and Caleb will go into that in more detail, but um we're looking at a wide range of things from code compliance, accessibility, uh building condition, deferred maintenance, aging equipment, the full gamut and um happy to take you through it. So, Caleb, do you want to share your screen? >> And David, could I ask you? So, my experience has been to go through this process as part of a grand overall master planning process. So could you explain in an ideal world how this would fit into
009both a school district facility master plan and then subsequently a school master plan and construction project. >> Yeah. So the this um it's pretty comprehensive and it's an important part of planning um for the future because you want to know what um what the deferred maintenance is on on the projects and it establishes a baseline. Often school district will say, well, you know, if you get into like uh modification of a building, they'll want to know, well, what would it just cost to fix the building that we have? And that's what this gives you. This is just there's no um the numbers you see don't include in moving any walls or changing any configuration. It's just here's what you have and here's what it takes um to to bring it up to a modern standard
010in terms of performance and uh you know newer equipment so that you're um and and and so what happens is when you do a a major facilities project um you may not you may not decide to do all of it. You may decide to do some of it and the rest of it would go into a capital improvement plan. So, you would say, "Okay, we're not going to do the windows now, but we're going to do them in 5 years or 10 years." And then you could start scheduling out um and create a plan for taking care of the buildings over the long term. Um, one of the reasons it's important is, um, that when you do the facility, like we were just working on a project in, uh, another school district and there was
011one wing that was completely needed a complete um, gut renovation. And when we did the master planning, it turns out they wanted to reconfigure how their classrooms were set up. So it became an ideal well it doesn't really cut cost much more if you're going to go to that level um of of you you have that level of deferred maintenance to move some walls around and get what you really want. So it helps you optimize your solutions and your investments. >> Great. Thank you. Everyone see my screen? There it is. Yes. >> Okay. So, um this is kind of a breakdown of our um project team. Um Drex Collins as the architect and team leader. Um our list of consultants um civil engineering, engineering ventures, structural engineering, also engineering ventures. um our electrical, mechanical and
012plumbing engineers, all from engineering services at Vermont. Um and then our cost estimation team was uh PMNC Massachusetts. Um so yeah, David kind of described um what the initial process was. Um we we took uh over the course of three days we visited the schools um and of jotted down all of our um observations that we would then take back to the office um in order to um put down our recommendations for moni moni monitor modernization of the schools. Um some key terms that we'll need to knowum as we go through this report. um a list of priorities. Um you'll see that the lists of um items will be broken up into one of three priorities. One, priority one being items related to health, safety, welfare or code. Priority two, which are items that are
013at the end of their useful life or expected lifespan. um or upgrades that will be significant, say for energy savings. And then priority three is any priorities that don't really fit into those two categories, but could help improve maybe functionality of the school. Um FCI you'll see um is FCI stands for the facility condition index and it's it's a ratio of deferred maintenance over current replacement value and it gives you a percentage um overall what basically what's left of the building and then so to explain these FCI 0 to five um new or well-maintained condition little or no evidence of wear or deficiencies. Um 5 through 10 would be subject to wear um but still in serviceable condition. And then 10 through 30 subject to hard long-term wear um nearing end of its useful life.
014And then 30 or above um it's recommended that it's basically that it's reached its end end of its useful life and it's now renewal is now necessary. And this came from the Vermont Education Act 72 facilities assessment. Um, so that's where we got this information of how they're classifying the these FCI numbers basically for the whole entire state. And so kind of a quick break through just a snapshot for the schools that we visited. Um, Brookside, Crossit Brook Faced in Morttown, Weightsfield, Warren. We didn't, as part of this investigation, we did not visit Harwood. Um this I think this was done few years prior. Um so you won't see any of that information in this this report but this gives you kind of just a breakdown of what grades go to these schools number of
015students building size. I think one thing to note is just the average years or how many years it's been since the last major renovation in some of these schools. Um an average of 23 years. So, and this is kind of a a snapshot of overall how the how the cost estimate came back. Um, we'll get kind of more into detail with these numbers, but um you can see kind of the the FCI facility conditions index here on the right. Um, few schools kind of reaching that 30% range. um faced in being quite a bit over um and then some within the 17% range. But then you so this you can see that the cost estimate came back as say 48 million um basically if we were to pair everything that was that we found wrong
016with the schools. And then this is a number that um basically taking a an estimate per square foot cost for a new construction build would be about 200 million to to replace all the buildings. Um and so you take those and divide it and you end up with with a 24% um overall FCI. We'll get right into it. Um starting with uh Brookside School. Um so yeah, grades preK through fourth grade, 345 students, approximately 76,000 square foot building sitting on a 10acre lot. Um the kind of originally built in three sections. Um kind of this central area built in was the 1900 and then two two additional wings in 1912 and 1937. And then the most recent addition being where kind of these connectors between these uh these three areas. And so priority one items
017that we um have established um for architectural um there's a lot there's some exterior windows that have areas of rot. You can see this photo here at the bottom. um it's kind of rotting right through the this the style. Um door knobs um that really should be replaced with lever hardware, just they're not ADA accessible. There's a lot of wired glass um in either door door vision lights or borrowed lights, which would be like a side light to a an interior door. Um that that's no longer allowed by code. It's just a safety hazard. Um a lot of exposed P traps at restroom vanities. Um, classroom doors do not have door closers, which is required by code. Now, um, they really should have closers and then doors could be held open on magnetic hold opens.
018Um, you can see in this photo here some egress handrails that really aren't up to code just with dimension with their other reconfigured. It really should have a a return on all the handrails. Um, and then some ADA issues. Clearances at kind of different doors throughout the office areas. Um, plumbing fixtures at classrooms are not accessible. They don't have the right clearances around. So, say like the casework sinks. One ramp at the kind of that goes down to the basement area is too steep. Electrical issues. Um, automatic transfer switch is not properly secured. um some open electrical boxes found in the attic spaces. Um and you'll see a lot of these electrical ones are actually fairly consistent between schools. Um plug strips used as permanent wiring which should not be um tamperproof receptacles. Any new
019receptacles by code now really have to be tamperproof in an education building. GF GFCI receptacles not labeled correctly. >> It's um it's worth noting that you know the codes have changed. So you know this building was designed and it met the codes and now the codes have have changed. Um in the case of like handrails and things um you know you're you have a a certificate of of occupancy and you're grandfathered in. Um but sometimes when you do major work to a building that sort of triggers code compliance and across uh a wider spectrum of of issues that even you might have originally anticipated. So they'll um so anyway it's just something to be considered. It's not when when we're talking about some of these code issues. It's it was designed um and it met
020code at the time and the codes have changed over the time. >> How was your day? I didn't even ask. Um, a few more additional priority one items. Um, for mechanical and plumbing, the kitchen hood is not ulisted or it really needs a fire suppression system by code. Um, and then sprinkler heads um should be tested. some structural items. Um, some concrete peers kind of along that back gym area. Had some kind of some cracked sauna tubes here. Exterior concrete stairs and handrails. And I think this is actually this work was completed. Marray had brought that up to us. Delete that. Exterior walkway support steel kind of in in the back of the school. There's a couple of steel beams that are temporary support temporarily supported and have someificate significant deterioration. Here you can see
021in this image on the right some civil items um really should add some signage and pavement markings to help direct traffic just for public safety. Um and then some trimming of vegetation at entry drives just to increase visibility. And then there's some areas of sidewalks that have settling panels that just don't meet code um based on that you can only have a half an inch of drop in order to meet 88 code. Um some priority two items for Brookside. Um and you'll see that the majority of the items will be in this kind of priority two um list with with items that are just deteriorating and kind of are at their end of useful life. So you'll you'll kind of notice that as we go through. Um so architecturally the envelope just based on building
022um the date that it was built it it does not meet energy code to current standards. Um, standing there's a some areas of standing sea metal roofing at the gym area kind of at the back storage area that's that's rusted and really should be replaced. Exterior wood doors that are appear to be original. They're in pretty poor condition. Some exterior hall metal doors and frames that have rusting at the bases. You see in this image on the right, some rotted post spaces at the entry columns should be replaced or repaired. Peeling paint exterior wood trim. Um damaged fibers met paneling here at these connector p areas. BTC flooring which is cracked or separating at joints. Um wood flooring that's worn and should be refinished just to help protect that flooring. um areas of casework that
023is worn and or not ADA accessible and then areas of damaged ceiling tiles or electrical fluorescent there's I think majority of these schools have been reled um but there are still some areas of fluorescent lighting um some mechanical and plumbing items um The boilers at the school are close to their end end of their life. Um the uh fuel oil tank. >> Hi. Uh sorry to sorry to uh interrupt Caleb. Um, I just wanted to uh remind everybody that the presentation was included in the warrant agenda and I think uh for the sake of time and allowing uh some questions uh from the committee and and other uh members here at the meeting that we uh maybe move through this a little bit quicker. I don't mean it's all important stuff but but the president
024you know I think the the report the initial report here speaks for itself. So maybe just going over some some of the more highlights. Okay, I can do the major items for sure. Um, let's see. I think structurally there's a couple areas at the school where that you can see these window sills have kind of become displaced and I think overall this building should be repointed just you see some of this brick here that is deteriorating just because of the age of the mortar and once the mortar kind of goes bad it's it then affects the brick. So I think um just to help protect the brick itself and then priority three items this this will be kind of similar for all of them. Um see kind of minor crack structural cracking that's not really
025necessary to kind of move on right now but should be monitored. And then kind of just a breakdown of the cost here. 16 million worth of repairs here at Brookside with an FCI of 26. Moving on to Crossit Brook. Um originally built in 1996 and really hasn't had a ton of work done since then. Um let's see some major items here. There's some soft damage to library that really should be um taken a look at just because it could be um affected from maybe a lof roof leak. A lot of very similar electrical items here. Structurally, there's some rusting at the entry columns that should be refurbished before they they get too far gone. Um and some spalling concrete at these entry steps. and then some some major potholes in the pavement. It's just a
026safety hazard. Um once again, the envelope is doesn't meet energy code. Um a lot of very similar items throughout these schools just based on how they've been renovated over the years. Um, need new boilers, should have a new oil tank. Um, water valves and piping specialy specialties are at the end of their life. See, yeah, for Crossit Brook, it was a $10 million cost estimate, 17% FCI, which is the lowest of all the schools, which makes sense just being the newest school. Yeah, it's worth noting that the um you know the FCIs in this district um quite a bit lower than in other districts which I say kudos to Rey and the whole team in terms of taking care of the buildings. Um you know we were you know we we it it caused us
027to dig a little bit deeper and to make sure that our numbers were accurate. We we double checked them with Ry and so um but you know get having them all be except for faced in you know under 30 in Vermont is is on the low side even though it's significant. You know when you're at 25% FCI that means 25% of the the building is depreciated and um needs you know needs renewal. So, it's not insignificant, but um but not as bad as some other districts. So, kudos to you folks. >> A lot of time to Ray and his uh his amazing work. Emily, I do see you raise your hand. I think uh what we'll do is is want to get uh Trux time to get through this presentation and maybe we'll save shoot
028to save about 10 to 15 minutes if we can. Uh maybe a little after 7 o'clock for for any questions from the members. Okay. Thanks. And I don't mean to be uh I don't mean to be sobering, but although this district has some buildings that are in better shape than others we have visited around the state. Um if you go back at some point and look at the slide on FCI you know 30% FCI is considered critical and you know uh many institutional organizations like universities uh or the military will consider uh replacement at FCI of 40 or 50%. So um just take that with a grain of salt. Yes, people have done a good job and you're ahead of the curve, but there's still a lot of work to be done. >> Thank you.
029>> Um, uh, moving on to Feton. Um, originally built in 1962 and there's, yeah, this building has kind of had a bunch of different smaller additions over the years. Um, some kind of some major items here. Um, see, yeah, some more white a lot of wire glass. the school as well. Um, exterior windows kind of not having the proper flashing which can lead to issues with moisture getting into the walls. Entry column post spaces which are rusting. This wooden site wall that we saw while on site has kind of collapsed or is collapsing. The the fire alarm system for this school is one of the major items. Um the the system's no longer manufactured, so replacement parts are will be hard to find if something were to go wrong. So it it's recommended to replace
030this system. Again, the kitchen hood should be replaced to a code compliant system. um we're faced in um the envelope really it doesn't meet energy code and doesn't have a proper air barrier system. Um the exterior siding really is isn't in the greatest shape. It's definitely pretty worn. Um some of the standing seal roofing should be replaced and then some of the older era aluminum windows should also be replaced. kind of past their end of useful life. Some damage kind of epheighting material at the gym gym walls and then your kind of flooring issues and ceiling issues. We also have uh central HRV unit should be replaced or at the end of their useful life and then unit ventilators to classrooms are also at the end of useful life. some just min minor structural cracking
031that should be monitored as priority three. So overall at face in it was a $7 million cost estimate but being a smaller school it's it's only 15 million for replacement so FCI of 49%. um for Moretown School. Um originally built there was a kind of the the front area built in 1900 and then a couple of different additions kind of 1960 1996 which added majority of the school as it sits today. some priority one items. Uh once again, handrails. Um there's some some egress issues, kind of locations of the shrinking fountain's a little bit dangerous. Someone's opening that door. Um and then just moving maneuvering clearances as far as getting into classrooms with a wheelchair, not accessible. some of the priority two items. Um some rotting rotting siding siding damaged trim um kind of at
032this this older area building. Um some original wood doors that really should be replaced just for their shape and also just for energy efficiency. um elemental doors that are rusting. A lot of lot of similar things. Um for this school, the electrical equipment is actually nearing end of its useful life. So that's a pretty good cost for this school. Um and then yeah, mechanical unit ventilators are at the end. their useful life as well. So yeah, Moretown came in at 4.8 million, 27% FCI Weightsfield. Um, built in 1963 with a few different additions. The most recent renovation, I guess, was the the kitchen in 23. So, priority one items here. glassroom doors without door closers, a lot of wired glass. Um, a few electrical code issues that should be revised. Um, just how how the
033wiring is um, routed. There was a few classrooms um, in this school that were noted to have just low lighting levels and then fire alarm signal signal coverage wasn't quite adequate. Um, there should be a few more. This should fix pictures of the school. Architecturally, a lot of the same items. Um, envelope isn't quite up to energy code for the whole building. Um, areas of displaced mortar at the brick. I think some of this work had been completed this summer. Um, some of the wood entry posts and trim at the main entry. And then so yeah, flooring, ceilings in poor condition, interior wood doors have delamination. And then circuit breaker panels at the original area of this building should be replaced or have their useful life. Boiler should be replaced. Unit ventilator should be replaced.
034And then the 1963 Domestic water piping has had several failures. So really should be replaced as well before it becomes an issue any further. Couple structural issues of an unsupported CMU. Um and so overall the school came in at an estimate of 4.8 8 million for repairs with a 24% CI. And then um Warren, >> so if you don't mind if I jump in just real quick, Caleb, I I just have to say and and I appreciate all your comments too and the other architects. I just spent two days at the Warren School and uh when you look at the pictures, you're not seeing teachers, you're not seeing kids. And having spent two days at this school, like all of our other schools, the school is about teachers, it's about students, it's about instruction. And
035I have to say from working in three school systems that our schools are some of the most caring places I've worked in. Um, so when you see the pictures and you see the issues, I just ask that people watching remember that schools are not just brick and mortar. You know, schools are about how we treat each other, how we treat students, how we educate our students, but they're important part of that equation. So, uh, I think it was Cam who said, you know, when you pull up to a school and you look at the building and you're dropping your child off or you're coming in for a meet the teacher night, you don't see these things, but they are part of the equation and they're part of the infrastructure. So, um I think when you
036look at these pictures, you think, "Oh, I kind of saw that. I didn't really notice that in in the whole and and the needs that are there. But I just want to remind people that this is just part of that full discussion and uh something to keep in mind as we talk not just in Harwood but across the state about the condition of our buildings that uh we're not commenting on anything about education because in my opinion um education we're providing in many of our school and most of our schools and all of our schools are second to none but these are things that keep the work going. uh last year or last week we had a an issue with some rain and some water in the one roofs in uh Brookside and uh I
037think this is just making sure that our buildings are maintained in a way that helps us and helps our teachers provide a quality education for our students. So I know I'm rambling on a bit but when I see the pictures I have to stop a moment and realize that this is not connected to our overall mission. It's just connected to the infrastructure of our tools. >> Thanks, Mike. I was was thinking the same. That's very important. Appreciate that. >> Thanks, Mike. >> Um, so yeah, lastly, Warren um built in 90 1971. Um, a few different additions over the years. And this this school actually um overall has was renovated in 2017 for a deep I guess retrofit for the exterior. Um bringing that up to energy code. Um some priority one items. Um let's see.
038Yeah, you can see wired glass at doors, door hardware. Um just accessibility issues with door knobs. um this one structural crack at the um level one or level two floor slab, level one floor slab that should be investigated. And I think one of the bigger issues here was the the fire pump room really should be in its own oneh hour enclosed room and then the the pump itself really isn't accessible. Doesn't have the the correct clearances that should be should be um revised. And and again, other than Ray, Skip, myself, and the fire inspector, I don't think anyone has ever seen this piece, but it's a important part of again keeping in mind that uh we got to keep our buildings running for students. And then so priority two items, um yeah, overall the exterior
039was in pretty great shape. um a little bit some areas where there's some kind of typical maintenance issues with some damage that corner trim. Um some some cleaning that needs to be done. So kind of routine maintenance things. Um some areas of flooring that kind of were in rough shape in some of the restrooms. Um wall padding was in poor condition and some case work that's really in poor condition. See here in these images boilers at the end of their useful life. And then the gym the gym HRU in this this building is really unders sized for the school. Then some priority three items here. You can see kind of these school panels that are kind of stained. Not really priority but could help the appearance of the school. um some kind of light structural
040cracking. So, this school came in at um just over four million for repairs with FCI of 18. >> It's worth mentioning that these numbers are um stated in 2027 numbers. So, we've escalated them at 4% a year from today's to 2027. So that you know because the likelihood of you know getting any of this work done is probably not a not for a couple of years. So we wanted to didn't want to state it in today's dollars and have you be surprised when you start to do the work it costs more. Um but it could be you know we just wanted you to be aware of that. I don't know, Ashley. I saw those names earlier today written on the floor down in the basement, and I think I saw your daughter's name down there.
041It's not in the rest of the building, but it is uh at one spot in the building, which is one of the fun parts. >> I think my name's in there, too, actually. >> Isn't that great? >> Yeah. I left there in 81, so 80 1980. Yeah. Um yeah, we put together this little uh facility comparison matrix to kind of compare all the schools. Um and it's it's really um we kind of went through and so green means it exists or is a sufficient size or condition. Yellow meaning it exists but could be either unders sized or in poor condition. And then red meaning that it's either failed or doesn't exist at all. And and I'll just say for folks, you know, there's no judgement in in this. We we sometimes get, you know, some
042folks have reactions to this and it's it's a reductive matrix um you know, intentionally to sort of uh call out where the major programming differences are from building to building. Um, so for for what it is, it's it's useful in these discussions. [Music] >> Yeah, just kind of a a recap of costs. Um, I think that's pretty much the end of our presentation. Um, I can leave it here if anybody wants to kind of >> Did we um did we benchmark the um the the the budgeting with the APA? Is that slide >> right here, David? >> Yeah. Do you want to walk through this slide? >> Yeah. So this um this u table is giving us um basically replacement value um which is what we're using to calculate our u FCI um cost. So
043basically for a an annual maintenance budget um it so if you're adding up your your your maintenance budget and routine maintenance it should really come to 3% of your annual budget which is this number this column here. Um, >> no. Three, I'm sorry. Sorry to jump in, Caleb, but it's 3% of current replacement value. >> Um, as opposed to 3% of your So, um, yeah, I'm sorry to cut you off, but it's it's uh the 1% and 2% add up to 3% of current replacement value, which is typically a lot more than what people are actually budgeting. >> So, yeah, this and this is the uh Association of Physical Plan Administrators. This is a um a a reference that we got from the agency of education. Um they're they've been using this to sort of
044benchmark and they're considering, you know, one of the things they're concerned about is if there's going to be a school construction aid program. Um they want to make sure that whatever um project is being developed that the school district budgets adequately to take care of it. So into the future, um this is something that Rhode Island does. Rhode Island um looks at a school's maintenance budget when they're deciding to give money and negotiating all that. And so we thought it would it's it's an it's a interesting an important benchmark to understand like what you're you're so according to this you're budgeting uh 4.2 the APA's recommendation is 10 uh million. And so there's, you know, there's quite a gulf there. Um the second the next column where it says capital renewal, the the 4% is
045um really talking about like if you didn't bond, if you said we're never going to bond and we're just going to budget, then they're recommending you add another 4%. which is essentially if you think about it replacing you know 4% a year is like every 25 years you've completely renewed your facilities that because 4* 25 is 100. Um so it's kind of a hypothetical to say like if if you decide not to bond um and you decide to just budget then you have to add another 4% for a total of 7%. um the um but what we know from the study that we did in the spring when we did the cost modeling is that um bonding saves approximately 10% over the course of that 30 years. So um it it's you know that's when
046you're considering like which direction to go and often what happens is as I I was mentioning earlier is that you know you look at these you know this whole um plethora of needs and you know often what districts will decide to do is say okay this is the thing we're going to bond for and these things we're going to um budget for. you know, windows we can do, you know, a facade a year or carpeting, painting, whatever. We can do those, you know, on a yearly basis, but, you know, another project we're just never going to be able to to budget for. So, we we need to bond for that. And I'm not saying that, you know, we're not trying to lead the district down any one path. We're just trying to explain how other
047districts have approached this. >> And also, you kind of got at this point, David, but can you also just explain to the board the differences in the cost estimations from last spring to this study and why this study is kind of more um relevant to our current discussions? >> Yeah. So last in the spring we didn't have this information. So what we used we used just some percentages of net replacement value to cover um the deferred maintenance. So um I don't know Cam if you can you go back one slide Caleb. So for the um 73 million sorry the 121 million the grand total there it's we didn't have that number. So last spring we just had to use a percentage of net replacement value based on the APA recommendations and um and I don't
048we haven't gone back and looked to see whether this is um much lower much higher but we'll we'll now be able to take this number plug it back into the cost model um and rerun those and they'll be you know now they'll be more accurate because we're not using uh just a plug number. um like we did in the spring, >> the numbers are lower than the ones we carried in the spring as a placeholder, just for what it's worth, which makes sense when you think about the school is in uh these schools are in slightly better shape than the average that we see in Vermont. Um, so it's kind of intuitive that way, but it's great to have these numbers because now because one of the key differences was in the spring we because
049we used a percentage, it was a very even wash, buildings were all assumed to have a similar level of of wear. And we can see from the report that that's not true. It's it's it some buildings are in better shape than others. So having that additional le level of information um gives you more options to be uh picky and choosy with how you approach um repairs and uh other moves. >> Well, it's great to hear we're not the worst, >> right? >> Yay. >> Gives a little peace of mind. But uh yeah, I guess now's a good time. Um uh if if uh any board members here have questions. Emily has raised her hand. >> Uh yeah. So I guess first off looking at the list and all the things that need to be um
050improved across all of our schools, it is a little bit surprising to hear that it's actually not as bad as it could be. These are some these are some pretty significant things that our schools um are are in need of. And I have I have two questions. The first question, I think they're both easy ones, but the first one is, you know, with with regards to facing being at that 49% for the FCI, it seems like then that's an indication that the recommended repairs might be a better investment of the community to actually replace those versus just hatching them given the state of of what some of that those those recommendations are in. if I'm understanding that correctly because it's at that that 49% threshold >> when you could you clarify the question. So when
051you say replacing um the are you talking about replacing the building or replacing components of the building? >> So so looking at looking at the slide on on page six that you know Fton's got the FCI score of 49%. There are the the three priorities levels and that the replacement cost like the to do all three of the priorities is about 7 million but the replacement of all of those is 15 million which I understand is double >> but given the age and the condition of some of the things that are happening in that school it seems like a recommendation could be to consider should we replacing these things versus just fixing them. I just want to see if Let me clarify. The the the 7 million is for replacing all of the items on
052the list. The 15 million is for replacing the building in total. >> Oh, okay. Okay. So, I misunderstood that. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And what what it doesn't include though is >> finding a site and a place to do it, you know. Um because that's a wild card. We we can't really put a number on. Um, yeah. So, that's what those numbers mean. >> Okay. I I'm glad I asked that question then because I'm glad too. >> I'm sure others, you know, members of the public might have um thought the same thing. And then the other question that I have is in the priority ones across all of the elementary schools, there's a lot of code violations that are going on. So, is there a concern that we could maybe not get insurance renewals? um
053that we could get fined by the state if we don't address these things within a certain period of time, even though a lot of this stuff sounds like it's grandfathered from, you know, X, Y, and Z. But is that a concern that we should be considering when thinking about some of these these priority ones and and code violations? >> Cam, you want to take this one? >> Yeah, sure. So, the way it typically works is um you're in a legally occupied building and you typically don't have to uh meet or upgrade to current codes until you do work. And there's a a chapter in the in the uh code book that deals with this specifically. But in a nutshell, um once you start working on a building and you start to do repairs, especially if
054they're at all kind of widespread, like if you're working on many many parts of the building at the same time, you end up getting inspectors, people from this from the state office of fire uh safety. They'll come out on a weekly basis. they'll be looking at your building and they will then at that point require you to make the upgrades um because you'll need a new certificate of occupancy and you will have to meet the codes that are in uh that apply today to those certain things and it can be a little bit peacemeal but generally uh code violations have to be upgraded as soon as you do a new construction project. So, um, it's you're not, I don't think, in any danger of being shut down. Uh, to be honest, if there was something
055that was so, uh, important that it rose to the level of of needing to be addressed right away, we would counsel you to just take care of that right away because it's a safety issue. Um, so does that answer your question though, Ray? Do you do you want to add something? Yeah, I just want to say that um we've had the state fire marshal in all of the buildings uh doing full inspections over the last three years and um he has not uh written up any any significant concerns and uh and that makes sense to me. It's kind of like when you when you when you do a construction project, you know, right now they walk around your building and and it's a would be a political nightmare to close a building down midstream, but
056once you do a construction project, they kind of put on their glasses or their code compliance glasses and they say, "Well, you've got a chance now to to make some improvements." So, they expect you to do it. >> Thanks, Kim. >> Cindy. >> Yeah. I just was wondering there's a few things that show every building. Uh the wire doors is the is the one that just struck me the most. I think every building seemed to have wired doors. Is there things that we're going to be able to do where um would get wired doors done in all our schools and and you know the the economy of scale something like that. Um there was that there was the pea drains on all the sinks and there just that I wondered if there's any economy of
057scale. >> Great great that's a great question. Is there efficiency if we buy doors for all the schools? You know, is that Cam's not sure? >> I mean, >> yeah, there's always economies of, you know, that usually the general rule is, you know, the more like a project becomes more attractive. they get better pricing when they do volume, you know, and a contractor. um you get more you may get more contractors bidding, more subcontractors bidding and um you get but it it really does depend because you know it could be um if you're doing let's say just Brookside and there's a lot of doors you might get the economy scale that way just by doing one building but doing all the doors as opposed to doing >> all certain kinds of doors across seven buildings.
058So it really depends. >> Yeah. because you also pay for mobilizations. So if you got 50 doors in one building and two doors in another, uh you pay more because you have to pay for that mobilization at the building with with uh very little scope. So go both ways. >> Any other questions from board members? No. Okay. Um, >> can I ask can I ask one question, >> please? Steve >> been typing like crazy. Uh, should we just uh I find this FCI figure a little confusing because it's maintenance costs versus replacing the whole school. uh but uh you know unless the FCI is very high then shouldn't we just be going the replacement the maintenance route? Am I missing something? >> No. No, that's absolutely right. It's it's um you know this for example
059the state when I was on the 2023 task force and one and the report was to consider you know whether you would you the state was using 65 or 66% 2/3 depletion um an FCI of that amount they would start to question whether they'd even invest in that property because it's it's sort of the old car dilemma, right? At what point do you keep putting money into your old car or truck? Um, and what at what point do you invest in a new one? And and it's interesting because there's a lot of consistency with the FCI ratings of, you know, the 30% 20% all that. And I I I've done research to try and find out if there's any um organization that says like when should you replace the building at what FCI and you
060cannot find that anywhere. Nobody will touch that. We've heard 70% we've heard 65% the Navy US Navy uses 50% um as their benchmark but it's a really it's a very much a judgment call. But at 20, you know, 4%, 19%, you know, the kind of numbers we're seeing here, yeah, the the reinvesting in the facility is the logical move. >> What about that 40%. Is it is it still logical? I mean, >> I see that Harwood is >> the judgment call, Ashley. It's a it's a cultural question. It could be different in different >> demographics. um different communities of people will feel differently about this. You know, the the one thing I'll say is that um you can you can make a judgment one way or the other. There is a point at which it
061doesn't make sense anymore. I often will use this the analogy of putting airbags in a 1957 [Music] uh Buick, you know, could would you do it? Sure. Would it look weird in that steering wheel? Definitely. Um, you know, so it it's uh if you if your buildings are not in terrible shape, I think there's a great case to be made to fix them. And but we work with some districts who have multiple buildings over 50%. Some with buildings over 80% FCI. Um, and in those cases there's there's more conversation about replacement as a strategy because at some point it doesn't make sense to keep investing in those buildings, >> especially with the other gains you get from replacement, >> right? >> You're not in that camp. >> Yeah. One factor that one one thing that
062factors in, and I think Dr. Mike, you probably um you've lived through this in in your previous district and we experienced at Wooki is that when you do a massive renovation, you know, of a of a project um and additions or whatever complicated project, it's very difficult uh for the people in the building to >> uh continue teaching because they're they're constantly being moved. There's construction around them. It's very disruptive. if it takes a long time and it's it's um and that's that's a factor that districts will consider like you know they call it flip-flop flip-flopping sometimes but where where a district will decide to build the project in the playing fields that they have and then you know when it's done you just move the kids over and then you take the existing building
063down and turn that back into the playing fields and you Not in Vermont. It's very uncommon. In fact, I've never even heard of it in Vermont, but in other states, it's it's pretty common. Um, and so that's so those are the fact that's a factor that people consider when considering uh you know, complex, expensive renovations and additions, but it's it's like I said, it's very unusual in Vermont. >> Well, and David's comments are exactly my experience. So what I would say is it's also hard because David and Cam and Caleb live in the world of not just architecture but compliance, legal compliance, zone compliance. So I think of my last high school and my last home. The rest the bathroom in my last home was built in the 1950s. So my wife and I decided
064to replace it. We went in, we gutted it, we rebuilt it, everything was fine. We had a similar circumstance in the bathroom in the high school that was close to the auditorium. I had a board that said, you know, this is really antiquated. We should replace it. Uh we should do something different. It looks horrible when we have parents come in. It's not serviceable anymore. The parts are old. So the board said, "Let's let let's go ahead and renovate it." And what we realized is because it was a public building, and that's the key. It was a public building and it had to comply with the codes. There was not enough distance between the toilet stalls and the sinks under ADA regulations. So that project that should have taken six weeks took months and months
065and months and inspection upon inspection from the code inspector who said this does not meet the legal requirements. So that's how you end up with a project that requires more space, requires a new building, uh requires replacement because you can't fit what we would like to have as people living in the year 2025 with what the legal requirements are in a public building, which is a public school. >> Did I say that? Did that make sense, David? >> Yeah. >> Very well said. These repairs are very expensive especially compared to what people might experience in residential construction and it is for that reason also the safety factor of working in schools contractors have to build that in because they have to get you know background checks and have to keep separate and it's timeconuming and
066all that. So yeah, it's a great point >> and I think we saw that this summer and it was Steve Rosenberg who pointed out to me like the people in the community who said, "Why are we replacing the parking lot at the high school?" Well, the parking lot was replaced because the state of Vermont has the three acre rule that if you have more than three acres of impervious surface, you have to have storm water and that led to a very expensive project. Fortunately, the state was willing to pay 90% of that. But we as a school district are a public facility. So we have to comply with those rules and regulations that the state passes for a modern facility. So I think that's a good example. We just didn't want to replace the parking
067lot. We had to do some work. And once we started once we put the backho in the ground and started digging, we had to comply with all of those legal regulations. Right. Uh, did anybody else here in the board members have any questions? Uh, for Trux, >> well, I guess it's not really a question. Just thinking about that, you know, we we have to sounds like we need to put under very careful consideration when we're thinking about some of the improvements that are are recommendations say like priority one or even priority two. We need to be prepared that there there could be unexpected obstacles that happen. You know, Mike, when when you were talking about the the bathroom example in your last school, I was thinking about the the bathroom right across uh at Harwood
068right across from the auditorium, which or the the gym rather, which I think that's original. Like that right there, if if you try to do anything to fix that up, and I remember it being outdated when I was there in high school, so it's definitely outdated now. that that's not going to be an easy that's an example of something that would probably quite quickly snowball and and and potentially several of the other uh recommendations in the priorities and especially um some of the structural ones like some of the the stuff we saw that's happening at at Brookside um and the stuff at at um uh Fasten. So those th those are those are definitely things to to consider. They they They need to happen, but there's unexpected setbacks that could happen as well. >> Sure.
069>> With this many buildings this old, I mean, that's anything could be the can of worms. We don't expect. In fact, I'm sure there's uh contingencies that we'll be building into >> um you know, prepared for that. And and I guess the last thing that I'll I'll say as far as you know student disruption. I mean I I remember the the last major renovation at Harwood. I was a student there and you know I remember multiple classes in those those portable trailers. >> Yeah. I mean, the next step, you know, it's a good point, Emily, and and in fact, the numbers for Harwood, you'll see they're they're very large numbers partly because the original core of that building is over 60 years old now. Um, >> and so, and that includes all that infrastructure, all
070that under slab piping and everything, and we know that some of it's in poor condition. Um, you know, I'll just say for folks, you know, the next step is really kind of with this information, as David said, it's snapshot in time. The next step is really for um the district to take ownership of it and, you know, either with help or on their own uh turn this into like a capital improvement plan where you can start looking at some of these items, grouping them up, looking at when they need to be done by, planning ahead. Some of these could be combined into m projects that make sense um and you can plan for and add contingencies uh for those eventualities. Um and that's really the utility of the information that it can become a living
071document that helps you plan and organize uh your approach to maintenance. Um >> so I just wanted to offer that. >> Yeah. I think you know we had originally if you recall there were three components to our original proposal. There was the configuration options there was the facility evaluation and then there was what we call concept design. And so we've we've now completed phase one and phase two. And so that's another aspect of this. So in our proposal what we had contemplated doing or proposed doing was um with this information and we had developed various options um you know district-wide options would be and what other districts have done is they've picked the the top three that look like the the provide the best strategic direction and we've actually developed some designs for those at
072a very high concept cept level and then had uh cost estimates done by a professional cost estimator. Um and then rerun, you know, do that and then rerun the the cost models so that you have a more accurate picture of what the cost impact of these different options are. And so that just, you know, when you're ready, you know, be happy to to work with you on doing that if if that's the choice. just but I'm just offering it as a reminder of of where we we left off. Yeah. Where phase three was. >> That's a great segue into uh next on the agenda which which is next next step. So I appreciate that. Um looking at incorporating this information into a capital improvement plan. Uh and I guess uh Ashley, Steve, Cindy, what what
073are your thoughts on how you would like to um take this information from here? Do we have um a desire to have TRX come back uh with a a presentation to the full board uh before thinking about our the path forward from here? >> Uh that's a good question. Um do we need a presentation to the whole board? Probably we do. Yeah, >> I I think it would be, you know, it doesn't um and I think we got a lot of meat done here in about a half hour and I think if 2X was amendable, I think that's important. >> I do too. Um I think it would be good to have it open uh to the whole board for more questions. >> Um I think that would be helpful. Uh >> I I think
074that's our next step. Personally, I think our next step is take it to the whole board. Um, and then be hoping to hear some more public comment. You know, I um I'm hoping to get a little more from the public. I know that a lot of people have concerns about the expense of things and and and I hope that people will remember that what we are looking at today is in today's dollars. And we have to remember that that if we kick things down the road, they get more expensive. Mhm. >> Um and I know we're all aware of that. Uh so so yes, I think if Trux is amenable, we'd like to have you guys back to um give a presentation to the board >> and I would suggest I just know Steve has
075put out some information and really wants to do a good job of advertising this to the public. Uh I know that uh our two local newspapers are also very engaged in making sure that our public is aware. So, we have a meeting next Wednesday, but I think just for transparency purposes, it's just too soon. If we could do something on maybe October 22nd, that gives uh TRX Collins time to prepare, but it also gives us, you know, through all whether it's the the our local media, but also the communications committee enough time to publicize this so our community is aware that this is being discussed and we have plenty of time. uh because I I would like to see dozens of people who are tuning in to listen to this and to give comment to
076the board on what should be the next step. >> Me too. >> Absolutely. And I think if if those who are on tonight from the public um h have follow-up questions from this meeting, I encourage you to to email the full board um or or attend uh our our upcoming meetings. U I guess I have one question. Um you know I think after the initial phase of this um this entire project um we um the the board the committee uh came up with with a grouping of options uh to further take a further dive into uh and I guess my question is is the true X here. Um, how much do you think with this current information that these facility assessments, uh, how much of an effect, if any, would that have, uh, on those
077initial proposals that that we, you know, I think maybe there was 20, we narrowed it down to five or six? Um, do you think they're still in the same ballpark? Do you think there's any dramatic effect on those those initial proposals as we saw them? >> Um, >> well, I'd prefer to run the numbers rather than risk of guess. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is is that something that that's kind of where I was going and I I appreciate that. Is that >> uh something that can be done in advance of of when we have you at at the the board meeting? Is that something do we want to have a you present to the full board and then maybe do that work and we take it into this committee again and um what what would
078you suggest? >> You mean like rerun the numbers with this new information? Yes. But without going to the next >> um without without initiating phase three is what you're saying. >> Yes. Yeah. >> I mean yeah that that could be done for sure. It's um you know my my s my overall sense is that the rel I I I don't think there's going to be a big difference and now and I'm this is I'm I'm thin ice here but that the overall difference between the options um is not going to alter significantly but I think that the total cost savings may go down just because the deferred maintenance numbers are lower than what we carried. Now, how much they go down, I don't know, but that's my general sense. Um, >> but if I, you
079know, if we're talking about for Sorry, >> go ahead, Cam. >> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I think there might be a little bit of stretching, too. As I said earlier, we used a a multiplier from the APA to estimate deferred maintenance, and it was even across all the buildings. And now that some buildings are higher and some are lower, some of the option is some stretching and you know some may may have more daylight between them. I'm sorry if I'm speaking a metaphor. Um but like I said don't want to hazard a guess without running the numbers. >> Sure. I appreciate that. And I just, you know, I in a perfect world, I wouldn't want uh the the narrowing down of options to uh have been, you know, to to be kind
080of undermined by some updated assessments and some numbers. So I think it's really important that if this committee is going to uh come down to five, three, four, five, six options, uh that they be the right ones. Yeah, I think I think that I don't think that would be um it shouldn't be too complicated to um put in now that we have this new information to just drop those in to the cost model and and see what comes out. >> Okay. And maybe I would just uh so we'll you know we can plan on you all coming to the full board uh taking questions from them and then you know if uh seeing seeing what the board wants as the majority of the board would like to see we can uh choose choose the choose
081that road ahead whether whether it's it's you know >> choose a road some road ahead yes >> that gets work done something that we are I mean I we all know that this is a screwy time to try to make plans >> because we're not sure what what what happens if with redistricting and with um possible aid from the state, although I'm certainly not holding my breath for that for construction aid, >> but we cannot stop supporting our own schools. I completely agree with what Dr. Mike said um earlier about our schools are about people and students and learning and all these amazing things going on. should be able to come to some agreement, I'm hoping, in the very near future about how we are going to press on. So, I'm um I am anxious
082to involve more of the public and I'm hap I'm excited to have the board look at this presentation and look at this meeting we're having right now and then come to our meeting hopefully with more questions and more input because we do need to pick some paths. We need to pick some places where we're going to work on some projects. I think that's legit. And how we're going to fund that and how we're going to do that >> um has a ton of pieces attached. So, >> so I think for me the next phase really is to have these guys are you guys free on the 22nd? Could you do a you can zoom or come? It's up to you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's a full board meeting. So, and Dr. Mike will
083be away at the one to come. So that would I I would prefer waiting myself till the 22nd. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, we're I'm I'm available for sure. >> Thanks. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Steve, did you have something? >> Yeah. I I just wanted to ask uh if the committee members feel that there's something they should be doing between now and the 22nd. It's, you know, it's three weeks. Mhm. >> Um well, what I would say is I think that our the bigger we need to look deeper at these they have the you're when you said Dave there's the more comprehensive report on each of these little teeny tiny items that's going to come to us at some point or is that down the line a bit? Um, >> I guess I would have
084to ask Cale Caleb has been the prime mover of that and >> we'll have to I'll confer with him about when when that'll be ready. >> I mean, honestly, what we have now is is is definitely enough for the board to look at and to sort of get their head around it, I think. I mean, you don't need to know how many screws and pencils and whatnot you need. That's not what I mean. >> More like if there's more info Obviously, we'll want to look at that. But I think for the board, what we have in front of us, I will encourage everyone to really dig into. That's my piece. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a more digestible uh format. The report is also digestible, but it's a bigger meal. >> Yeah. Yeah.
085>> Um All right. So >> I guess I would I would suggest that just for other committee members uh you know to answer your question Steve I think using uh this report uh maybe going back into the planning options that were that were offered uh that were submitted last year uh through the Trux work and and maybe just kind of taking revisiting those options with with this body of work in mind might be a good first step too in advance of the 22nd. >> Yes. Yes. >> Um >> I do have I do have one request. I'm sorry, JB. I do have I thought thought I caught thought I caught a good moment to jump in. I do have one I do have one request of folks and this is both for folks uh at
086the school on the board uh in the committee and even people who are listening in the public. If you have questions about the information that you're seeing, please funnel your questions through uh Dr. Mike or his whoever he appoints to be that person. um just so that we're not in a position of having to respond directly to folks or be outside of the the the chain of command so to speak. >> Um because we know this is there's a lot of information here. Some of it is is challenging and unfamiliar. Uh and so we want to be able to support folks in getting the the answers they need, but we just want to make sure we're going through the right channels. >> Thanks. We we appreciate uh all the work that you've done and uh
087as far as the public here, I just want to make sure that we have that the district has has hired you on to do this work. Um and and uh you know, you're you're looking at this, you're doing this through an absolute neutral lens. And so I I remind the public that to keep that in mind um when they look >> That's a that's a great piece of information. Um I agree with that. True. >> And I you know, my goal with this committee is we we don't know what's coming down the pipe uh with the state. uh if we can uh work as much with with TREX with the public um to come up with some paths forward when things get difficult in the coming years and and have that at the ready then
088I I think we've we've done our job. So that's my goal. >> Planning. We need more planning. >> It's what I do. >> Cam Cam loves planning. Don't you Cam? It's your fave. Um, and for those members of the public we didn't get a chance to hear your questions, please please uh send them on to to to the board. Uh, we will have another committee meeting. Uh, certainly. And at that point, uh, it' be nice to have more time open for public comment. Of course, there's always the school board as well. uh this is going to be an absolute collaborative process um wi with with with with uh with the residents and and and and >> but for the public I think JB they should send if there are questions related to this presentation they
089should send them who to Mike and then >> Mike >> is that okay Mike >> what what I'll do is I'll come up with a full document anything I get from the public from the board from anyone here I'll put it in one single document and then I'll share it Yeah, that sounds like a plan. >> Yep. Great. We're gonna we're going to do this together. That's that's the bottom line. >> Um >> by hook or by crook, we're going to do this together. >> And also, I just I do want to echo something that David said at the beginning. And I want to thank Ray and his staff of all the facility directors in each of the schools who do a wonderful job every day to keep our buildings in great shape for our
090kids. When you walk into the schools, like I said, those those pictures of the work to be done, you don't see that. You see you see a good place with kids who are working well and teachers who are doing a great job working with our students. >> We are Ray gets a shout out from me, too. This is a this is a hell of a load you've been holding up a long time. I swear to God, we're going to get something done. I swear it's happening. >> He's just stoic as you. >> So stoic. So stoic. >> All right. Well, well, thank you everybody. Um, I guess I'll be looking. Uh, it's almost 7:30. It's just about 7:30. Looking for a motion to adjourn. >> I'll make that motion. >> Excellent. >> Do we have
091a second, >> Steve? >> I'll second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Thanks everybody. Thanks, guys. We appreciate you. All right, everybody. Take care.