001Okay. Well, I'm gonna uh follow this meeting of the uh um subcommittee policy committee to order at 3:05. That's the right time. um hurt and isn't anything to review on the agenda. It'll be a short meeting. So, let's uh sing the pledge of >> allegiance algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, justice for all. on both business policy review cycle proposal. You'll see in your packet that we went through, Bill, Erin and I went through um and kind of organized the policies as to the years that we're going to be reviewing them. And all the ones that we have done work on are highlighted. also. So, >> and there's a couple things that we said there. There's
002especially for 2030, there's a lot of them. Um, because we did so much reviewing here. Um, but I think you pretty much broke those up equally, right, Aaron? because we were trying to break those up >> for the I just did five years from when they were either reviewed or >> Yeah. >> whichever one was >> Yeah. >> later. >> So it can kind of we can be you know can refilter the spreadsheet each year and say that's the work each year without you know new ones coming in. That was kind of the idea. The only one that um has a three-year cycle was the wellness policy because it does state in the policy that it wants to be that it needs to be reviewed every three years, but all others will have a fivey
003year cycle if that's the local committee. >> And the other thing we talked about was that there'll be things that will just happen at the legislature that will add to the working year. >> At least it's been a constant in my administrator. That's a given. >> That's a good. So, if folks are good with this, we would target those years. If someone said like um 2029, it' be the 2028 2029 school year. >> Yeah. me. >> Yeah. >> And then Mary, you and I talked about like it may not be a monthly meeting, but like every once every two months or something like that to come together because it wouldn't be as much work this huge policy now, >> make sure things are up to date. >> And I found that in the past where
004I walked into a district and the policies really hadn't been looked at for a while. So it's like took a year or two to get up to speed, get everything reviewed, and then it was about every two months meeting just to keep the maintenance going unless there was something that became any >> fine tuning things as we're going along. Um so for new business policy review the only one that we have to review is D6 the minimum and optimum districtwide average class size and that is essentially mandatory by act 73. So we have to Take a look at that. >> Yeah. >> So, with act 73, we're in alignment with everything except for high school sizes. The minimum that the board set last year was 15. And there's a minimum for middle school 15. I'd
005have to look at um I think it goes all the way down to second grade then we get 12 or below um I know there's a hand out here from our slides um but 6 through 8 has a minimum of 15 and in the state and what they adding to act 73 is for 9 through 12 it would need to be a minimum of eight. So somehow we'd have to somehow it's pretty easy to change our language in our current policy, but we need to put something there for grades 9 through 12 to be in line with current state. Does anyone have anything to say about that? >> For the current, you know, the current class sizes for that is I mean the maple run says minimum 15 and act 73 is saying minimum of
00618. I'm just curious if that's going to have any actual impact. >> It will have a little bit. I you hold on. I was just doing some Aaron and I were pulling some data for Wednesday night for the board meeting. So, I actually have that up in an Excel sheet that I was working on this morning. >> So, give me a second. Class size. So, our current class size right now for the high school is almost 17. The problem is there's some classes that come out. What I did here was just overall every section of every department. So, AP courses, driver's ed, they don't fit in. They don't figure in here. So, I could tell you right now that those will our class size will probably come up on 17. I did every single one
007um in that count just next. And then our from four to eight we average seven uh 7.3 and then for K through K through three we average 16 16.2. two somewhere in that area. I'm getting that all ready for Wednesday night. So, Aaron pulled some data for me real quick this morning and I did some calculations. So, that's a good question though, like where I think we're going to be okay when I think about walking around the high school and we took out the AP classes, driver's ed, and the um what I call tier 2 supports or intervention classes, which are actually classes where we want small sizes, and those can allow by law. I think this will go up over 18 without much restructure. I don't think there'll need any restructure. >> Okay. >>
008Close. >> I'm guessing I want to be really clear. I'm guessing >> Joan >> um did you say for for kindergarten it's 20? >> No, for kindergarten kindergarten through three it's averaging at 16 almost two. But for kindergarten itself right now off of this year's numbers we have an average of 15.4. >> Right. But it says in the policy it says Maple Run. >> We have a minimum of 15 for all grade levels. >> Right. But it says a max for of 20. >> Yep. >> So you will go up to 20 is what I'm saying for kindergarten. >> You needed to. Yes. >> All right. I don't know why, but I thought we were at 18 for kindergarten. >> No, no, we have some that are down as low as I'm looking at the
009actual roster right now. Uh, yeah, probably 26. I just want to make sure it's right here. Uh, the smallest classroom you might see is 13 right now. >> I mean, I'm sorry. I'm saying max, Bill. I'm not saying minimum. >> Max, I can tell you max right now. Our highest max is 18. >> Yes. Right. But in the policy that I'm reading in front of me right now, it's saying that we will abide by 20. And I'm saying I thought we said we were going to do 18 for kindergarten. >> This is what we had from when we did it last year at 20. >> But does act 73 just dictate class time minimums? That's right. maximum >> and already in education quality standards for Vermont, there were maximums already there, which for grades uh
010kindergarten through I'd have to go look, but I'm sure it's kindergarten through 2 grade, it's uh it's no larger than 20 and grades three on, but it could be three or four. I just without it, it's uh 25 classrooms average. It all talks about averages and tell you what you're taking the average for. You know, is it one school, one district keep our policies and just add the minimums >> for the for the for the high school? >> Sorry, John. C >> can you just repeat what you just said, Jessica? It's a little garbled for me. I'm sorry. Oh, just that we can keep our current policy and just add the new minimums from Act 73. >> And Bill, may I ask um can all of the and I I guess that if we were
011at 20 and I understand that the likelihood of us getting to 20 um is smaller simply because our numbers are waning instead of um getting higher. But my question is, is there space for 20 kindergarteners in current kindergarten classes? >> Classes or classrooms? >> Say that again. >> Classes or classrooms? >> Classrooms. >> All right. So, classrooms. It would be depend on where they're located in the building. We don't always keep the same classrooms. Okay. >> Configuration, I think. So that would be how I would answer that because if I think of Fairfield, which has probably our smallest classrooms, but I would say Tech has a couple rivaling small ones. Um they they just switch it around based on what the class sizes are. >> So it may mean that M. Smith switches with Mr.
012Jones, you know, to make that work. >> Okay. I guess I was under the understanding and I I must be wrong, but I was under the understanding that best practice was a max of 18 for kindergarten. >> No, for Vermont education quality standard. I'm not saying it's not best practice. I you can only quote education quality standards of 20 for Vermont's education quality standards for >> Okay. I have to go look up kindergarten research, but I've seen it all over and what is talked about is that especially under grade three that fewer kids, smaller class sizes smaller than 20 um is preferred. And then the class size research above fourth grade and above is pretty clear there isn't really any learning change that can be found in meta analysis for less than 30 kids. >>
013Okay. And then >> are there policies bill that talk about um like if somebody was on a a field trip or whatnot that says how many students per teacher it can be what is the safety? I haven't seen anything. We don't have anything like that that I know. Um it's usually around making sure the kids aren't split up into groups where there there's an adult supervision with someone that passes a background check to be alone. Do you know what I mean? There's we don't have a policy or a practice or a procedure on, you know, field trips and how many adults you need to have. >> Oh, okay. >> I know that I know the practice and it's unwritten. I want to be really clear with this. It's a kind of written that when you
014go on field trips, you make sure kids well are always supervised by someone that has a full background check. >> Sure. Of course. I just thought that there was a number from students to adults. When you are on a field trip, you know, they say, "Oh, if you're, you know, going to be away, you have to have this many um adults to this many students." >> Not that I'm aware of. privacy anything like that, but I haven't gone and asked the question. Does that make sense? Like I I just don't know. The building might the principal might say, "Hey, you got to have this many adults with you if you're going to that type of field trip." But going to Echo versus going to the beach takes a different What else? >> Yeah. Yeah. There's
015just different supervision. and obviously find grade level as well. >> Okay. So for this policy all we have to do is change >> I would add you something in there around the minimum five size adjustment needs to be made and that um in there for grades 9 through 12 get a sentence that says we talk about minimum that for grades 9 through 12 it needs to be 18 in alignment with act 73. >> Yeah. And it might be even something in parenthesis with understood classroom exceptions and claw as written. We'd have to figure out that I think we get that. >> So can we get that taken care of for the December? >> Can we do second meeting in November? >> Second meeting in November. such group wants to see it because we can send
016it just to give you a comment. I think it would go right before the last sentence. The class size I think right there for grades 9 through 12 per act 173 the class size average should be the courses that they allow to be exam something like that. I want to write it a little bit. Did you catch all that, Jo? I know I was on the other side of this aisle, the other day, so I know exactly what you're talking about to be able to hear. What I was saying is that right before the last sentence in the policy, I would say something for grades 9 through 12, the class size should be 18. >> 18. Yep. >> In alignment with act 73 except for the courses called out in the law to be exempt.
017So it reads something like that. >> Okay. And those classes, as you said, were for um AP classes and uh um technical classes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Tech, all the stuff in Northwest Tech is out out uh it's called terminal courses, advanced placement courses, and courses that require specialized equipment and drivers education classes. small group services for the purposes of provide special education supplemental or targeted academic intervention. >> Okay, thank you. That's I mean I'm reading right off the slide >> and I copied and pasted >> you copy and pasted from the >> perfect if we could go with those changes to the policy would everyone be okay with it going forward to the board to review the second meeting for November. >> Yeah. Yes. >> Okay. >> Karen, I see you nodding. So I'm assuming
018that means that information. >> Yes. >> Bill, can I ask one more clarifying question? >> Sure. >> So um let's just say you have 21 kids in kindergarten, first or second grade. Does that mean that you'd go immediately to a class of 10 and 11? Well, that's the ult that's the conundrum that you get in Joanna. We usually talk about that. Like I can tell you for this year up at Fairfield for kindergarten were a little below. We're at 13 and 13 for two sessions. >> But that's actually one part I was about 73 has lower minimums for grades one >> and two through five in the Maple Run policy. for that specific scenario, it would be worth lowering those within the midborn house as well. So >> that's something that this group could talk
019about if you wanted to make that change. >> So I'm sorry, I'm looking at where are the lower >> act 73 grades one has a minimum of 10 students and grades two through five is a minimum of 12. >> Uhhuh. >> Two through 12. lower the maple run policy is meeting the standard because it's got a higher threshold but >> right >> is it is that problematic if you get in that scenario of exceeding the maximum >> I mean I can tell you at city right now with kindergarten we had planned on having over 15 but then who shows up because you know we're staffing the school in March for the next year thought we'd be well over 60 we were America for four sections. So I don't want to pick on I don't want
020to say Fairfield because they might have one or two sections. I want to show you how that works in big schools sometimes too. >> Yeah. >> And I know the year before at town they knew they were a kindergarten teacher was retiring and they didn't hire until June because they only had 50 kids registered for kindergarten. And then they said, "Oh, we got to 56. We always get a bunch that last two weeks." They asked me and said, "Yeah, let's go forward with that fourth section." You I mean that's just kind of that's one of the balancing acts because there's attrition and then how do you manage the staff and if you're past April 15th, you can't be reducing force. So you gota that's all that's when the planning is really happening. And that's why
021many times in a school that has one or two grade one or two sections per grade level like Fairfield does, they sometimes say to a teacher, can you move from here to here because we think this will be better. So you're balancing what you were asking Joanna. It's not just that grade level, you're balancing other grade levels and where they're at. This is the stack we had because we already, you know, we passed the budget March, we built that budget December really because January we're scrambling to say where do we want to land and so you kind of know your personnel a lotment and you say okay I mean what happened this year at city school was we had a teacher leave we weren't able to replace them but we saw grade four I think
022it was grade four had the wrong grade don't go we choose grade four right now had a small cohort. They could fit three classrooms within their class size policy. They went to the teachers and said, "How do you want to structure it? This is what we're in." 1 of August. They made the decision. Move forward with We didn't hire that teacher. Yeah. We we couldn't find anyone either that was met our hiring standards either. So, that was part of it as well. just trying to be transparent in how we try to ship here. >> So, is it a hard fast one, Bill? That's kind of what I was hearing from you. I think we try to stay to them much as we can, but when I reported back to the board in the past month
023and a half and I did something on great science, I said, "We didn't make it everywhere. >> We made it most places. We didn't make it everywhere in the policy." And it's a really good structuring tool for us to have as the administration as we go into budget building which we're in the midst of starting right now. That's why to me this policy is really important for where the board wants to be so we can say okay we're building based on that. I think >> I think you said earlier I mean I I haven't read the studies but um learn student learning happens better in smaller in a smaller setting up to a certain point >> up to a certain point when you start getting below 15 12 kids you lose that diversity a lot
024>> because after the teacher the most powerful agent of learning for kids is their peers Mhm. >> It's that collaboration that happens and you have different thoughts, different ways of approaching things whether it's in kindergarten or seniors in high school. >> Okay. >> So that has a powerful impact on uh learning and when it gets down to um they've actually found when you're below eight you're individual a teacher should be able to run individualized plans. I'm not saying that's what they must do but that's what the research suggests. Next on the new business is next steps. >> We got this. >> Yeah, >> I didn't hear I don't know whether we need a roll, but we have something to organize. >> Try to point out anything left of this year. I think we're in pretty
025good steps and then maybe Mary and I can work with you on a calendar or meetings for the six year. We've done a lot of good work. >> I did have a question about this. It's just uh the BSBA, do they have a routine review structure? Do they do it every five years or is it just >> It's usually between somewhere between three and five years. I haven't seen anything on their website. Have you seen anything on their website for use cycle? I know when I've worked with BSBA, they've already re somewhere between three and five years short. >> Okay. Yeah. I was just curious because there are I mean we did a lot this year. So >> yeah. >> Um >> depending on how quickly the SBA turns things around that could be a
026busy year. >> There are a couple more that we know are still to come that haven't come from act 72 and act 73. So we will need this group to share the cell phone issues and social media need to this group will need to work out the board. Am I can you remember any others? >> Um those are the two big ones that come to my mind first. Yeah. >> Okay. I'm good with the five. Um, I was just curious if there was any kind of, you know, if that lined up with what the state can do as well. >> Yeah. >> See the look at >> We're just so we know what's happening each year. I'll just resort it. >> So we can say each year this is what it is. It just kind
027of we'll just take the spreadsheet sorted by date. This works like Mary I would say probably the first of the year is probably be back together as a group. >> They're supposed to have those two policies. one particular says January 1st >> that needs to be updated by then. >> Well, they're supposed to have a model policy. Okay, >> that's what the legislation says, >> but I don't think we would have anything on social media or cell. We will not meet again this year >> until last night. >> Good. Yeah. to so will I be reaching out to everyone after the new year to schedule something to do to see where the state coming together. >> All right. Uh the meeting is adjourned at 4 >> 3:30. Thank you everyone. Happy Thank you. Have a
028great Thanksgiving. >> Thank you.