NHCS Board of Ed. Finance Committee Meeting | June 18, 2025

001Okay, we're headed to Texas for football. Anyway, we got we got some time of the finance, capital, and law committee and ask um Jenny to call the role. Pat Bradford, I am here. Pete Wilder, Josie Barnhard, here. Kim Clark here. Jana Linen here. Paul Slavic here. J Hannah Moon, Philip Sutton here, Charlene Thompson, Jared Worththington, Stephanie Walker here, Rob Zapple, Eric Cradle here. Amanda Kusiaak is on the way. Thank you. Lisa Wartzbacher here. Natalie English. John Hennitt here. Christopher Riley. Livian Jones. That it. That's it. Okay. We're going to keep moving. We've got an an ambitious agenda and I hope to get to a good portion of it today. So, we're going to um tr middle school Kim's clerk is going to lead us into the pledge and then we have the invocation by Pastor

002Tom Hower. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. living of all the relationships they have to coordinate. So Lord, I thank you that in the book of Ephesians chapter 1 verse 17, it says that we could ask God for the spirit of wisdom and revelation. It also says in Ephesians 3 and verse 20 that he will do exceedingly and abundantly above all we'd ever ask or think. So Lord, I ask for special revelation and abundance for the board, for wisdom, Lord, for unity, for purpose, Lord, that the purpose that they have, the call that's on their uh life, they're called upon their responsibility. So I ask for unity and purpose and

003the fulfillment that you have for all of that which is before them. And I want to thank you, Lord, now in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. All right. Next is approval of the agenda and I will second that and I would like to make a quick change. If you'll look down under [Music] the one so I'd like to move that up for a little five minute and start with that um in front of building projects just for clarity. Madam gentlemen, did I get it wrong? The New Hmer County uh regional medical center asset purchase agreement. We send it to everybody by email. I just want to point out a couple of things on it and then move forward and that way rather than jump into where we're going and have questions about that, we'll get that

004first and then we'll jump into where we're going. So, Roman numeral six. Yep. Move it up in place of four. So, is that a second, Miss Bar? All right. We have a motion to move asset purchase agreement and put it um above building projects. All in favor say I. I. All oppose say no. All right, that's approved. Now, um, so do I have a motion? I'll I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as amended. I'll second that. Okay. All in favor say I. I. Opposed. All right. Now, if you'll flip through your package to six, you'll find the asset purchase agreement. Hopefully, I will. Yes. And I just want you guys to take the time to look. I think the only times I ever know what's in this is when the media reports it.

005And we can't count on that being true or sometimes you guys will go over certain parts of it in the county meetings. But here it is all at once. And you'll see the $und00 million, you'll see $35 million, you'll see the $75 million. And it it's really important to grasp what this says before we go any further. And two things on C2 that I wanted to call your attention to is the county revenue stabilization fund of 300 million. And um when I hear the county speak about it, I hear it as an absolute untouchable that the only way you can spend that is if you're spending on the interest because you want to let the capital grow to provide the interest in order to have something to spend. But I do want to point out

006that um under those five things on C um capital assets and projects that would that would be us. Um and so I don't want to I don't want to I just want you to be aware of that. I don't have an opinion on it yet. And then right underneath that number two mental and behavioral health substance abuse disorder treatment fund. You'll see that acronym out there all the time but this is actually what it is. And then if you if you read their number, they have four pillars to this endowment funding. One of them is schools. The first one is schools. And so I just want to point that out as we go forward. And you hear people in the media and people in the community going, "Oh, the endowment. Oh, the endowment." And I

007want us to really understand it as a committee as we go forward. So with that said, we're going to jump right into the hard stuff. And I'm going to let Dr. Morgan and Dr. Hamilton handled this. Nope. Sorry, that's something else. Um, I'm going let Dr. Morgan and Ashley handle this, but you've got in your packet. It's just all the different projects. There's 15 of them. And there is homework for here. There will be a quiz. I'm going to ask you to rank them. Everybody rank them. Miss Mason, do you have one of these? Okay, good. I'm going to ask you to rank them in 1 through 15 of what your priority is because it's an opinion, but we as a board have to have a the voting members have to agree on how we

008rank these 15 before we go home today. So, Madam Chairwoman, I apologize. I just want to make sure. Did we approve the 8th minutes? We did not. And I'd like to bring our attention to that. Thank you. All right. Was that a motion? I Yes, I make a motion. Okay. And I will second that. We sent you the minutes by email. So all in favor of approving those minutes say I. I. I. All opposed. All right. Minutes pass. Now building projects. So I'll I'll start if that's okay. Um the the first thing I wanted to share, we have um kind of a lead page before the attachments that was part of the agenda um called building projects. and it actually has the timeline that we had discussed previously. So, this is a timeline that we

009discussed in October of 2024. Um, if New Hmer County Schools wanted to move forward with some type of bond referendum, this this was a timeline that we were looking at at that point in time. Um, and so, as you can see, that first key date is June 30th um to be able to have projects identified and start those conversations. And so, um, I don't know if Eric, is this a hard deadline or is there flexibility in this? It's not a hard deadline. Okay. I just wanted to for the committee to know. Um, so we are right where we need to be as far as having the conversation today about the projects and trying to identify the priorities of the which one or I guess a priority order from this committee. So then it can go

010to our board to um determine what the top ones would be that we would try to fund. So the the the two supporting documents that we've included, one is basically just a timeline for projects and the other is the list that Miss Bradford is referring to. If I could draw your attention at first to the building projects proposal timeline. One of the things that we were asked to do at the last meeting was to try and put put these proposals on a timeline. So it shows how we would sort of space things out, time things. So what we've done is exactly that. We've identified um on this just four projects. If we were take four projects and we included two additional district-wide items at the end, um those are the easiest to talk about because

011security upgrades and technology upgrades, the idea being it would be 10 million spread over 10 years. So it would be a million per year for that 10 years. But going back to the beginning of the timeline, what we would what we've tried to do is if if we're looking at you what will likely be a bond in the next couple of years, there's a really good chance we're not getting through 15 projects. So what we have tried to do is establish if we were to look at some costly what would those items be approximately how much would they be them out beginning in 2026 and then spreading them out over the next 8 10 years. Um so if you can look at that those essentially those are construction projects. We break those down into the

012various phases. That's rough a rough estimate of what the timeline might look like. Um we feel like this was just a good starting point for the discussion based on where we left off last at the last finance committee meeting. Um obviously next phases would be once we decide what projects we were going to plug in there at that point we would start identifying costs associated with them and with the various phases. Right. And I think what we really wanted to make sure we did um as far as bringing to this meeting for the committee was just like he said a format like this is what we're thinking of how we would try to figure out cash flow. And so this you know the projects like there might be more projects less projects but the focus

013is really more about the format of this. Does this format work for the committee? Um and the the phases that we broke this down into. Does that make sense? You know, for every project to have, you know, the design phases, then the construction, and then the bidding. Um, and then the other piece of this is we also went back and looked at some um projects that are complete, and we tried to identify in each of those phases about what percent of the cost of the total project was in each phase. So kind of what we came up with which we can certainly tweak this is just our first rust draft at coming up with a format was for like schematic design would be 15% of the project cost design development 25% um and then bidding

014permitting 10% construction 40% post construction 10% and you know the all as we're just beginning this is, you know, should we use those percentages and kind of frontload um the cost associated with each of those phases um and then use that to do the timeline and the cash flow going out across the timeline. And so if I just wanted to have some conversation may since we have county folks here too like if you see anything with this that doesn't seem reasonable or you would do it a different way certainly would love to have that conversation and then once we actually have projects I could use that guidance to come up with that cash flow and then share with the county you know before we move forward and try to finalize anything. And I would say

015those percentages are probably some of the design percentages may be a little high, construction may be a little low. Um, but again, I think and I feel like Mr. Zapple in particular would be very proud of of what we put forward here just as just as something that it was a discussion point and we we went back and looked at that and thought it was it was a great way to um kind of map things out. Yeah. So, Commissioner Zappa, what do you think? You're looking at the colorful one you got? I I am thrilled beyond words. Uh seriously. All right, I'm out. You can go now. Uh what I'm missing here is uh you the listing of the percentages on the paperwork. I Where is it? I was saying the same we Yes. So

016I on the next document I will put those percentages down for you. I apologize. I wrote those in on mine after we had already come up with this format and it so it wasn't on this document. But when we bring the next version back, I'll make sure I have those percentages written down. Did you want her to run through them? And I can say those again if that's helpful. Actually, Lisa, did you follow? I did not write down. Yeah, I did. But I can also send those. Okay. Um, and honestly, I would say we could I think it would probably be smarter to to wait. I don't want to quote those percentages back. I'd like I'd like to get them a little more fine-tuned, but I think the idea was we've broken down the procedure.

017I mean, the phases, that's the next step. And that's that's something we can accomplish. So, if I understand it right, once we have identified project one, project two, project three, project four, then we will fill this in and have a really good way of looking at it. That's awesome. And we left it as as sort of generic because we didn't want to influence which projects they were. We could have plugged some in, but if we did that, you guys would automatically be thinking, "Oh, these are the projects we're doing." And we really wanted this group to help us order Crescendo, you know, order of operations. Those I like the way these phases are broken out. This is the way that we do a lot of our projects at the county as well. Um, the one

018thing that I would ask, and Eric, you may have a a different opinion, um, but I it would be helpful as we think about cash flow to think about it from a monthly perspective, um, rather than just kind of this big bucket. And that might be hard to do, but but we're also looking monthly. Okay. Yeah. Because we're also looking at it from a fiscal year perspective. And um, that's helpful. Sure. Mhm. So, of course, what I could do, you know, if we What is your thought about, so when you guys do your projects, do you frontload when you're looking at that timeline for cash flow? Like, is it heavier at the beginning of the phase? Um, and or do you just spread it evenly over that that information from Sarah on that? Yeah, if

019you could just let us know. We could be consistent with how you guys are used to that working and we can follow that same logic. Okay. And I think construction phases are going to weigh heavier. Yeah. And and would it will it vary from project to project? Dr. Morgan. Okay. That's what I was thinking. Um so to um Livian Jones joined us. We have a new committee meeting. Um and if you don't know Livian, she's amazing. She's going to be an awesome addition to the to the team. and Commissioner Zapple. What we're going to do is you have 15 things in your package and we're going to rank those 1 through 15 your opinion, not the group's opinion, but then we'll tally those and because we hope to go home from here today having ranked

020these, which is a tall order, we know, but that's what that's what we're about to dive into now. Chairwoman, I'd like to um add one thing with the Isaac Bear Early College building. Can somebody speak to the capacity? It's my understanding that that building would potentially be able to double the amount of students that we're currently serving at Isaac Bear. I don't know that finalized number, but I think that's important in the ranking. Hold that or do we want to move? I kind of want to put Isaac Bear at the end of this. Well, I'm just saying as far as priority ranking, I think it does play into account if we're talking about capacity numbers and increasing a capacity at a high school level, that might influence the the the room in this. You do

021have a point. Now, one of my goals for today was to create an ad hoc committee to study Isaac Bear because it's a a different animal in the in the in the well, I'm not using that word um in the in in the grouping that we have and their state money. It's on, you know, the university's property. So I was thinking a committee of three or four people that could study that one and then come back with a recommendation on their part of what we do because our goal here today is can we have a bond and if we have a bond what are our top priorities going to be that's that's that's where we are and that's an ambitious thing. Um, we probably should talk for just a nancond about can we have a

022bond and Amanda and I talked about this earlier in the week and I or last week anyway in the last couple weeks and I was like can we actually do it and I didn't think we could but now in the last two weeks I've come around to thinking that we almost have to. We don't have a choice. So within the limits of the dollars and cents that can be spent we have to figure out what what we what our ask would be and that's that's why we're here. Madam Chair, I have a question because um we are talking about a bond, but from what I gather, the bond would not probably cover everything that maybe we want as an ambitious thing. There's a lot on this list, right? Well, we've got to talk about the

023bond process itself. No, I understand that, but I mean, I think we had discussed maybe potentially multiple kind of avenues of financing. Yes. Yes. So, I mean, um first we just got to get our priorities, but at the same time, we're going to run parallel with talking about the different ways a bond could go. um there have been all kinds of suggestions. There's all kinds of stories out there of how it would go and um that we have we have to establish what directions what our options are to rank our project. Our bond cap is do we know what our bond cap is? I know what our existing debt capacity is at the current time. Okay. Um it's projected in this year at about $100 million. It grows some after that. We're also talking to

024consultants to see if there's any room to think about raising that. Uh we've also got to factor in county projects. Uh we can't use all of our debt capacity on we got some things we got to do on our own. So, right, that'll go in probably to the later bond discussion and how complicated it is. I mean, as far as the amount because there are other county things in that mix. Yeah. And so once we establish the priority of these 15 things, then we we come back next month and we work hard on that part of it. Um Yes, sir. I think Miss Walker, your point is well taken. Whatever bond we get, regardless of the debt capacity, not all these 15 things they're going to land on, right? That's correct. So I think that's

025the one of the reasons to order them is so we know which way to drive first. And if I may, Miss to answer Miss Barnhard's question, the 2022 memorandum of agreement with uh UNCW and the board of ed sites that um there are roughly 200 students in there now and the proposed building would house approximately 400. Dr. Morgan, there's 260 there at Isaac Bear now. We checked earlier. I understand. I'm just citing what is actually in the paperwork that we have that was signed in. in your package, you do have the memorandum. So, um, before we Well, I'm just going to wait till we get to the Isaac Fair part of that and then I'm actually going to ask for suggestions on to make this ad hoc committee. So, y'all be thinking who you want

026to nominate and I would advise Commission Walker. She was on the ad hoc with that first. So, she probably has some really good insight for us, too. All right. So, um, is Rob leading this or you leading this going down the projects? Rob was leading that because he had a couple of things that comments he wanted to add in addition to what was written. So, this is the same document that we looked at last month, but there were That's okay. This is the same document we looked at last month. We're just bringing it back and then Rob, I think you had a couple of things that you might want to add um or talk through these different projects before they try to rank. I did. Yeah, I just wanted to mention a couple of things

027that uh I would encourage everybody to keep in mind as options. Um the location of River Lights and Williams Elementary School, they're they're pretty close to one another. At some point, I think the conversation was the idea that one and and keep in mind River Lights has been a discussion on the table for for many many years. I think at one point the conversation was the idea that it would be built as um K2 or possibly preK2 Williams that would then be rebuilt, replaced and rebuilt as a 35. Um I to me I I feel like it's worth considering the idea that maybe you don't need to have two broken up that way that if we're going to rebuild River Lights, it's going to the the track lands 15 acres. I think if we were

028to consider rebuilding River Light or excuse me, building River Lights, it might be worth considering doing it as as one school that will house all that will house 650 students. And so it would hold every anybody that any elementary school student that might otherwise go to Williams. Um, the other thing was just and and I know we were just talking about Isaac Bear Early College, but I think the other thing just to consider is is the question about whether or not if we're looking at bond money, who who's going to pay for Isaac Bear. I think we still come back to that question. That's why I think we need the committee just to just to study the history and where it is now and what the possibility options are. Len, did you have something? Yeah,

029I know I'm new. Um, but some of you may not know. I headed up River Lights um for four years when it came back. Met a lot of times on site to pick a school site and analyzed Mary C. Williams, the parks in between and you elementary, middle school, what it needed to be. Um that's been 12 years ago. I've also served on the first bond referendum committee and you know I I'm on the developer side not side but I represent a lot of developers. I rep represent construction real estate. The la latest complaint is that we're overcrowded. And technically, we're really not, I don't think, according to Eddie, but that's an elementary school that was donated to the county 12 years ago. And it got pushed out of the bond referendum. And so I

030I do agree with the prioritizing and kind of knowing because I think at that time we were kind of told as to what we thought the county could approve or not approve. Um so it's definitely number one on my list, but I just wanted to give you that background a little bit some knowledge there. And you talked about the overcrowding north and south. Yeah, about um so overcrowding at Williams is not necessarily the case. We are starting to see those kids having spread to Bellamy and Anderson. So those schools are at capacity. So approving River Lights, building River Lights would take care of Williams and the structural structural issues that are there and then help us bring kids off of Blair Bellamy and Anderson. My concern right now is Porter's Neck Elementary. Correct. But I

031I hear you. Thank you. And that's one thing that's been talked about is whether there needs to be another elementary school up on that side. But I'm a big fan of looking for internal solutions before we look for external ones. And that may need to be a restructuring of a lot of our schools to bring that capacity because the only places that are growing are right here and in the north. the area around Monkey Junctionish and then the northern side is the issue. But some of those problems could be solved with a redistricting sort of scenario that brings the kids closer down this way. I have a question for Ly and since you were deeply involved with it and it's been 12 years and to your point about Porter's neck, that was my question. Porter's

032neck was built and it was pretty much full already and so we know what sides of the county are growing faster. I don't know how far River Lights has been built out. Um I like the idea of building it bigger perhaps and and just maybe not, you know, because Mary C. Williams, you're looking for a full rebuild on that. Um and I don't know. I know it's not in the best shape right now, but what are your thoughts on that? I mean, considering Porter, is there more growth to come in that that particular area is my question. And will River Light be Well, yeah. I mean, they're only in their third phase. I mean, they've still got a lot of acreage and homes left to go. Um, if you look at the demographics of it

033though, it's not as many children as they thought. Same thing with a lot of the developments that we're seeing. Um, at the time, we looked and studied, I guess, having Mary C. Williams, the park in between and the site because we located the site on the southern end next to the creek and it would have been contiguous. But at that point I was operating under a development agreement and we were just having discussions about what it should be. That was really up to school board and the county at the time. Um but it's a track of land out there. There's a nice park for fields, etc. In between, we redid the Mary C. Williams track field when we were there and kind of partnered with them on some computer technology things. But the land's been

034given and back to the Porter's neck. I'm in a lot of meetings where it says quarters neck was just built. It's already over capacity. What's a growing area? They've added the modular. It was designed for expansion. Yeah. So, I mean, I see it all, but just I mean, with the river lights, of course, I've I've tracked it over the years. And um it's not that the neighborhood's demanding it or wanting it. It's that the site's there, if we can find the money to build there. And I leave it to the facilities folks to decide whether they need elementary, middle school. There's a different acreage, I guess, parameter for each. So, you were talking about splitting K2 and between River Lights and MC Williams, right? Well, one thing I would recommend is that I'm wondering if

035River Lights wouldn't forgo the need of rebuilding Williams. With the needs that we have, I sort of don't want to spend all of it in one place. One, I don't think that's fair to the community for a bond, but also as our enrollment has shifted overall, I think we could make do with a 650 with River Lights, encompass Williams, and then still have room for growth as well. That would take care of some of our Anderson and Bellamy issues. I think that was the original vision. Um, and for somebody to go, I've got the development agreement. There is a timeline on that site with the developer. And to be fair, Williams is not all that terribly far from Pine Valley either if it came to that. Okay? You know, because what you would do is

036Pine Valley is not coded for 650. What's Pine Valley's capacity? 500 520 maybe. Yeah. Sorry. It's okay. And Miss Barnhart, you're next. And then just I mean Mr. Hennets next. Can we see the Yeah, but I still nailed it. Um that gives you another 100 kids at Pine Valley that you could fill to capacity and another 150 kids if you combine River Lights and Williams. So I would suggest Pine Valley River Lights not do Williams. Okay. But again, that's just my my theory. So basically, we're discussing River Lights, Pine Valley, and Williams in this particular discussion. And Jesse is uh Miss Barnhart's next, and then Mr. Hennet, and then Paul. Thank you, Madam President. My thought process and prioritization comes back to the capacity. And so I know whenever our board of education was presented

037capacity issues, they said here's what were built to capacity recommendation was around the 90% usage. Um but to see how many were at capacity or not at capacity with mobile additions, but some of the mobile life units that we have are at max capacity. So seeing these projects and the number is helpful, but knowing the ones that are able to increase capacity by 150 students here and there, that's going to affect how we're able to potentially look at a change in enrollment of students. And I think that if we're able to tackle a lot of these opportunities, the capacity issues are different in elementary school and middle and high school, too. So, I know some of these price tags are higher for um like handover high school for example. Um it's a high school capacity

038though and so this is something when looking at it I think that the committee should take that into consideration too because when we're looking at serving different populations elementary there's a different need than at the middle school level and at the high school level. um because it is really cool to look at a new bill for different populations, but the looking at the need just like they addressed in certain certain areas might be more important than others um for different levels. So I think that's important. We know that Williams is an aging building and it also helps with the capacity issues. We know that when we talk about TR building a new TR and giving TR to Laney that solves more than one problem at a time. So you should think with the debt capacity

039we have we should always look to be solving multiple problems with one solution. And I will point out at the end of that list you have a a pricing estimate here. So um just just pointing that out in terms of where we are. Okay. Um you next uh pretty much echo off the res. We're starting to see families coming into it. Um whereas we had already the demographic was important. I just don't think that planners for saw all the green space around the school site when they built the school because it was clear that was already residential development. It's filled out water. Um, and I also point out that the county using some code dollars are running water and sewer through Green View Ranch Plantation Road, which is an area bound to about I40 Market

040Street, North Kore, and that represents over a thousand acres of undeveloped property. They're going to run waterf and you might as well have matched the resource because it's going to get developed. I I sat, you know, one of the early uh round tables when the county was up to develop and I said the county needs to get aggressive if they're going to build a new school by the county. There's an opportunity there because that's traffic that doesn't have to get on market street 140 because it's internally connected to the other 8,800 households that are in that area in that same bounded area. the um the kids were migrating families for some of them were migrating to northern Bur County is demographic is an empty nest here in River Lights at the outset but that's housing

041pricing diversity gets built out I think that's the phrase I'm using as the housing pricing diversity gets developed out see more families come to that and it might this little roundabout project might slow things down a bit but they're coming point that out. You know, I don't know that our hair is on fire just yet. Maybe Dr. Barnes are in good shape, but we um but we certainly think there needs to be a balance between the north and the south and we some words. I think that's I think we if we're looking at a new bill, we look at the real estate we takes the land acquisition cost. Yeah. especially because we have that line next to CEK and I was remiss in introducing principal Paul and I can't say her last name so I

042won't cry um from Mary C Williams and Miss Jenna Linen is principal Linen is about to retire and so we're having a switch over here but they're both here today with us because we are talking about Mary C Williams so and Paul you were next um just considering some of the comments that were made already um and in relation to where these schools are located, projects are located um and potentially finding solutions that can impact multiple potential projects. Are we hard set on the number of 650 for a cap for all these schools or are we open to going larger? I did throw that out there. I mean, I would say the one for River Lights is going to be space dependent. that's based on what has been put forward up to this point and

043the schematic designs that have been done up until this point. Now granted, those were also done with the K12 model. So um those would have to go I mean we would have to look at redoing those but at the same time I don't know that the I don't know that the size of that building necessarily would change in terms of the footprint. It might grow a little bit, but I think that 15 acres is definitely established. And Livian, I would ask you, am I am I right in saying that it's exactly 15 acres plus or minus? Okay. How much? Yes. It depends on an extent. If it's correct me if I'm wrong, school business, but if it's elementary, middle school, high school is correct. And they kept going back. So I'm like why do you

044want to build another ele elementary schools walking distance to Mary C Williams but that's what they foraw I guess when this agreement was made. Yeah, and that's a great point. I mean, I'm talking about it like any school that will go on that 15 acres is going to be an elementary school. And maybe I shouldn't be doing that, but that's I think that's where our head has been all along because I think the agreement the original agreement was for an elementary school to go in that that spot. And now is a good time. Give us just like a a a half a minute. Um my memory has that River Lights was approved, plans were drawn, that was approved. I remember sitting in this room listening to all those meetings and then co just pulled the

045plug on it. Is that is that an accurate Well, the river lights land was purchased in 20067. Yeah. At the same time that a piece of land from the cameras was purchased in Raleigh. Then the recession hit and they decided to put River Lights on hold 2010 and it was resurrected in 2013. Um but the development agreement during that time um we cross that is the development agreement and in that is where the school fire station that was in there and so that's restarted it in 2014 and we did a lot of talking about the school meeting on site about the school but there was never any discussions because at that time about the same time last bond bond referendum was going through. So this kind of got pushed to but the plans are done

046for that. Is it am I correct or am I making that up? You know when I was there? No. But I know that that was a amount of money that was allotted to do design on I think a few projects. So I haven't seen the plans or know if they're going to principal, you might remember there is a there is a design booklet where they photograph the designs. So in terms of in terms of that aging design, is it still usable? Um that would just be one of the things that I'd want to know somewhere along in this process. That was all done after I was there probably in the last five years. And I think what you're referring to there was schematic design from River Lights found Yep. And I remember this board approving

047it done and presented or that board on that board. I have seen some plans, but they they're like probably just in a design type thing. They're not anything that's ever I don't think it was priced out. Was it? I I can't remember. Was it? But I know I have seen them in this room. Right. Okay. Just updated. Yeah. a year ago. I was I was done in 2016 and it was not done before that. Right. Okay. I think it was probably before CO like you're saying I know a certain amount of money was released for 21 there was a lot of discussion on it here and the board approved something and then it just all stalled out or maybe it was 2020 and Pine Valley. I've seen those plans as well yeah. I think there

048just wasn't funding identified for the I think we did thinking there was funding that Yeah, I think the funding for the schematic design is as far as we got. I just Lisa, do you have anything to add? The other thing that I would say is that um there was that updated cost, I guess, based on the schematic design and I believe there was a grant that was applied for to get funding for the project that was not approved. Yeah. So we did um there was a certain point in time I think it was right after COVID where we actually qualified for the cap state capital needsbased grant and we did apply for that but we did not receive that funding and I think because that funding didn't come in that's why those projects didn't move

049forward. Yes. Question. Um, you know, I don't know. There's the 80 acres that's on the east side of River Road. It's the last 80 acres. There's a lot of residential there. There is utilities close to the site. I don't know if they I don't think anybody's done anything with the site until it's been identified. It's just been kind of marked off as that's Hanner County's school site. Do you know if the developer retain design? The design was not done by the developer. Did the developer retain rights to the design? I'd have to look at the development agreement. That could really restrict you design. I doubt it. I think it was based on acreage because the reason we were looking at the park in between Mary C. Williams and River Lights is because if we went

050with a different I say age, grade, we did elementary and middle school, we would have needed the parks property to do fields. Um I I believe it's just based on the acreage and donating that site. Okay, before we leave this little grouping, last couple questions. Yes, question is related to core capacity and this is from months ago when we were given the cropper study and we were talking about where buildings are now core capacity and the expansion and when we were looking at building out new buildings, my understanding was that an updated core capacity for elementary school, middle school and high school was going to be following that realm. So I think and I was um side talking over here with Kim about the core capacity of middle schools but then it's looking at this

051new middle school would be a thousand which is currently higher than what our core capacity is for middle school and same thing the similar thought process was with these elementary schools to build that core capacity higher than what it is like you were speaking to Mr. Slovic like that is what we were discussing about when we were looking at these renovations or builds to increase the capacity because if we're increasing the capacity 200 here 150 there 200 there we we have a total capacity increase of potentially a thousand very easily and so that is a huge gamecher and I I'll add in because I always say this and um some of our elementary schools don't have a gym they don't have a multi-purpose room because they were built so long ago So that's one of

052the things at Pine Valley that to have that addition of a space, an indoor exercise space is needed. Same thing with Mary C. Williams. I mean, when when these spaces were built 100 years ago, that was not an a need, a desire. And so those are some updates that to have because unfortunately some principles struggle with teachers. But yeah, Park, huh? Winter Park doesn't need. Right. Right. So anyway, just when we're talking about core capacity, that's what I remember from months ago when our board was presented this cropper study discussion on that core capacity increase as many places as we could affect it so that we could better respond to the growth and I don't know how to get that into this discussion today. Yeah, I don't think it's possible. Um, well, you could create

053an other category where if you have an idea that's not on this list, you feel strongly about it, you can rank it in as other and describe what you're doing. Sure. Okay. Can I say one more thing? Yes, sir. As a state of North Carolina, most if not close to all of the counties are encountering the state is declining in its enrollment overall. That's a nationalwide issue. It's a statewide issue. We get that. We want to get to a place where we are gaining students again, where we're increasing our enrollment, but quite frankly, with the way that the the birth rate is going and all the other things, I would be happy with not losing, right? Holding steady is in a lot of ways gaining ground because other places aren't. I want us to think

054about as we're going through this process, the leaner and more concise our footprint of schools can be, the better. We don't need to be adding buildings in a system where we're not maintaining enrollment. So, if we're going to build a new building, you should find the oldest building we have, move it along, right, to something else because we don't want to increase the number of buildings we have because that increases our overhead and makes us a little less cost effective in the long run. Just something to be considering. So, to lower the footprint, you meant to not increase the building number. It's not a popular topic, but I will tell you that there are school systems our size and bigger who have less schools than we have. Interesting. And some of that's a capacity issue

055because when I say things like that, Paul goes, "Not in Porter's Neck, you don't." It's a really specific weird issue because Porter's Neck, Bellamy, some of those schools are increasing dramatically. Some of our schools are not. And the if you put them all together as a district, we're not increasing. And so that's a good point. We're never going to get to the place where we say we have too many high schools or we have too many middle schools. We only have four traditional high schools for 25,000 kids. That's that's the right number. We're never going to say we have too many high schools. Our middle schools kick along pretty well, but some of our elementary schools could be reconfigured. The question is, do we build an addition onto Porter Neck or do we bleed those

056kids down? You know, but it's going to be a triple jump in checkers. you would have to take kids from Porter Neck and put them at Ogden and some kids from Ogden would have to go to Blair. Some kids from Blair would, you know, it's not a one jump solution. But there are solutions as well. So that's just something to think about and I don't want to go into a big discussion of it, but one of the things that we've talked about in the past with the county is taking our existing buildings and upfitting them to be PreK friendly is not the right word, but to be more compatible with preK and we have this prek problem to solve. So, as we go through this, if there's a spot where we can plug prek into

057something we already have, that is something to consider. It's about agility. Any new elementary school we build will have in its build prek compatible rooms because the more choices we have, the better we can respond. And the point for doing that is if you have a freestanding prek building, you have to have a principal. Not have to, but you need you have you have things that have to be paid. You even have a custodian. You bring them in under another one, you already have a principal. You already have a custodell and you already have an electric bill, so it's a cost savings. Um, are we ready to move on to the next? Nope. Commissioner Apple. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, fascinating conversation, but I'd like to piggy back a little a little bit on to what

058Superintendent Barnes was just saying. What I'm hearing in all of this, there needs to be a serious conversation about redistricting. And I know that's not a popular conversation, but everything we're talking about here goes leads right to it. One thing, again, an unpopular thought, we've got enough physical school buildings, bricks and mortar right now. What we have is clusters of population that overcrowd some and leave others with empty desks. So, I don't know how we can move forward with a priority list without ignoring redistricting. Well, I think that that's let me toss you back the ball real quick. Sure. Some of our capacity issues can't be solved because of the complexity or the the issues with the building. Mayor C. Williams, you can't put there. There are there are safety issues. There are physical issues.

059Those are issues that aren't going to go away with redistricting, right? Same thing with Pine Valley. I get that. And that's why they've been on the list for 12 to 15 years and moving up. And it kind of breaks my heart that somehow Pine Valley seems to be drifting away while we're considering seriously building a new school at River Lights, which I I recognize could solve the MC Williams as well. Again, I'm just, you know, throwing out these numbers, uh, or these thoughts. Also, you know, we're looking at a the reality of a bond capacity. There's going to need to be a bond to get a bond passed in this county. You're need going to need to spread out geographically where the benefits come. Good point. Any conversation here in my mind has got to

060at least include the Tras situation up there at Laney. It is out of No, it's not out of control. Thank you. You're doing a great job. That's inflammatory. I'm saying there's a lot of lot of kidness. We have a lot of issues up in there. We're going to move right to that next, sir. Well, I'm going to skip over Isaac Bear for now and go to Tras. Let me make this last point. Just using the numbers on page four of the document here. I shouldn't have told you that was there. Yeah. Well, I already had my eye on it. Uh we look at uh the River Lights at $43 million and a Tras at $77 million. You're already up to well over the cap that we had, you know, our estimated cap in a bond

061and we haven't even touched uh Pine Valley or an expansion of Porter's net. So, I know the job of a committee is to dream big, but you know, there's got to be a reality check. Let's twostep this thing. Let's figure out our want and then we'll see what we can plug that into. But we got to start somewhere because we've been having this discussion for a long time. And that's just, you know, so let's figure out what we want and then see what we can do. Yeah. Because the elephant's going to have to get eaten in a couple of bites, right? But what would happen if we brought to the county a 10-year or 12-year bond plan that might allow for the debt service to kind of sunset on some as we're working through the

062process? Really, I think what we want to be able to do is provide to, well, quite frankly, you and and and you sort of here's our 10-year plan for the school system that's going to work on efficiency and redistricting and things on our side while we'll work on renovating and innovating our buildings at the same time. So, what does that look like over a longer span of time? Because these buildings aren't getting any newer. Dr. barns to your point and and but are we getting ready to rank because I wanted to add a point before we do that for the other we're going to go through some more stuff here right right I just want to make one point we are talking about projects that could take potentially 10 years so this committee is doing

063work for well into the future right and to a point that got made earlier about where we are left to grow in this county because I don't I know there's a birth rate discussion but I also know people are still moving here and will keep moving here there is an area of this county that is still not as developed out. And so I just want people to think about that as far as even just purchasing land at Castle 450 I mean Castle Hane that whole that whole city road area I mean that whole area up there the Green View acres area I think that's what it's called. I mean near where I live I mean that is just waiting to be developed and I'm not I don't think everybody that's moving here is going to

064be a senior. I'm just saying I just feel like we just have to think 10 15 years ahead and think if even if we don't build a building, get the land, get a piece of land. And so that's going to be in my other category. So yeah, land acquisition for the future is always been a high priority for me. Um, so can we move on to it comes back to being a little challenging to do land acquisition with building with crumbling buildings. That's I get that. Yeah, I know you do. But that's that's the the challenge for us. But but it's going to get s. It's going to get gone is what I'm saying. There won't be anything left to buy. I get it. As far as the current redistricting discussion, when the information we

065were given as a board, verbatim, the study said, the guy who presented said redistricting will not solve your solution. You are at or above capacity at so many of your buildings. So, I understand that as we do some of these improvements that a redistricting conversation needs to come up. However, it would not address the problem which is we need to revisit some of our capacity and needs. So, I do want to point that out. That's a good point and I do remember that. I I do remember that. All right. TRA, we've had some discussion of TRS. Rob, do you want to go over it again? um put it into context. Sure, I'm happy to. Um the idea with Trass Middle School is to um I apologize the way that this I don't like the way

066this is written because it says to uh replace the existing TR middle school, but I don't think anybody's talking about uh raising the building that Kim Clark runs right now. I think the idea is to build a new building um out on the CEK uh that the acreage that's that now houses CEK and then Tras Middle School would actually end up becoming part of Laney High School as uh well the idea being that it would become a freshman academy for it. So Tras I I mean I know what I don't know how to label it. Um, so it' be new CEK building, Tras Middle School/CEK. New CEK. No, it would be a new middle school on CEK's campus. That's correct way of saying it. And that would become And that's what we're considering. Yes. And

067the existing TR would remain where it is and it would become part of Laney's campus, which would majorly And then I can hang up every parent who calls by traffic from then on. Um, Kim, would you like to comment on this one? I think yes. I I think anywhere where we put money to will will help. Um, yeah. Okay. I don't have anything specific. That building is recently renovated. I would just add it's a beautiful building. So, um, you wouldn't need to, if you were looking, that building would not be one that would need to be replaced anytime soon or to get a lot of fixes because it was just most recently renovated. So, the building's in beautiful shape. Kim, how many students do? 620, I think. Capacity 640. That's all one story. Correct. Well,

068there's like a off a few office spaces, but yes, access to student is all one story. Two um learning cottages as well. Capacity with the mobile is 707. 707. Learning cottages, Rob. Learning cottages. Learning cottages. Let's learn. Is that what is that what that means? That's what that means. That means trailer called learning cottages. Cottages. Yes. Um, so I'm curious to build the building out on the CEK property. What kind of timeline are you looking at there? What kind of timeline are we looking at? Yeah, because okay, if I'm ranking this and let's just say for fun, Tras was three or four on my list, but you that's not an overnight fix because you got to build a new school and then you got to transfer those kids and then you got to set up.

069So that's not going to be quite the same timeline as some of these others. Or is it? It it might be close. I mean, anytime you're talking about building a new school, I think depending on what has to happen to prep the land before you can build it, you might be adding six, eight months, but otherwise, I think you're looking at two and a half, three years. Okay. Questions on TR? We have experts in the room. Do you have a bubble of like where at least some data on is there a group that's larger maybe sixth grade across the county or seventh grade where we have some time to think about that or there I I would encourage us not to make decisions on what can be done the fastest but what is most critical

070I for one for another the last so in HR I always sort of monitor how many kids are in each grade level because qualifies how many teachers each grade level gets. And over the last few years, you've graduated approximately 2,000 seniors and brought in about 17 to,800 kindergarteners. So that bubble is in high school. Now, the other challenge is is you see a weird thing that happens where kids will exit our system during middle school and return for high school. So you do see kids that are that will go out of the public school system for a few years and then come back for the complexity and the uh high school opportunities that we have. So it's hard to say where that bubble really lives because it dips it creates its own bubble in middle

071school. Okay, then we're going to move on. Still skipping over Isaac Bear, new handover high school addition and renovations, which is different. This is different. This little paragraph is different from anything I have seen before. That's including the meetings that we had with you guys. So, take this one away, Rob. Well, I think the reason this is probably different is because we didn't necessarily edit these based on previous conversations. Okay. and items that were put that were put forth for the group to consider um in previous bond discussions. So, but ultimately the new Hover High School addition renovations that's that is ultimately getting at pending the New H High School facility study and master plan that's going to be presented at the July board meeting. M so um but ultimately those discussions have centered around

072um and as I presented at the last board meeting they've centered around the idea of what it might look like to simply repair make renovations make renovations andor expand on the on the current footprint um versus those items as well as expanding the current footprint as it stands. So, a lot of that I think will be determined uh what this actually looks like as an item on this list may very well be determined by what's presented at the next board meeting from the design team. So, what's going to be presented at the next board meeting? Is that going to be uh I know we have to pick, but will it be in stages? Because we talked about that at great length at that last meeting is can't do it all in one day, right? And

073you can't do it all in two years. I and I I'm anticipating them showing us multiple items in multiple stages. Good. So before the board meeting in July. Yeah. So in terms of ranking the high school here, maybe not pay as much attention to the language that's here, but ranking something get started at New Handover. Principal Sutton. Principal Sutton's going to appreciate the That's fair. I don't necessarily know that anything in here is incorrect. It just might not be presented in the order of, you know, the order that we would tackle things. Go ahead. Well, and you know, I know that our number on that back page there is bigger than anything else. And so I know that impacts the bond process um you know for what is able to be um public for voting

074on um would that come in phases as well? Uh, as far as if we did phases, would that those phases be included as prioritized? I guess looking at uh well, we're going to have to wait and see because they haven't done the presentation yet for us. But I can tell you the things that we have given them as priorities. Uh, classroom, especially science and CTE rooms, cafeteria, perimeter control and security. Yeah, those are the big ticket items, starting big ticket items. But the other thing, don't forget folks, is we would have to build within the space of having children, students there, which is something when you think about something like River Lights or Pine Valley, you have a place to keep the students while you're building. New handover doesn't have that kind of flexibility. So,

075you have to do it in phases. Well, my question becomes, is that project really a bond project then? Because as we are doing it in phases, the expectation is we're going to come back to our commissioners to say we're ready to do the next phase of this. Um, and I don't mean that out of any disrespect. I know it's a large number. So, it's certainly, in my opinion, something that can be wrapped up in a bond, but it's also my opinion that we have to do this. So, whether or not we get a bond does not matter. these renovations need to happen um so that it's safe for our students and our staff and so but I don't think that's for this committee to decide it's for us to sort of bring our work to

076the county and say what options do we have a question so we were presented we saw the proary plans I know that's going back um will we get pages as well hopefully that hopefully, right? Cuz because we talked because it would have to be phased in. You couldn't just do it all at once. That means have bits of money here. I mean, yeah, that's got to be the only way this is going to happen. It's got to be. So, they have to put a if they're giving us phases, they have to put a price tag for each phase. Um, and then it's going to have to take into consideration, you know, the inflation and so on. But still, it gives us a starting point. So, I don't know. My my gut feel is that we're

077going to come up with a phase that becomes a part of this. Yeah. And that's because there's just not enough money. I mean, we could spend all of it and still not get new hand over, you know, and we can't do that as Commissioner Zapple pointed out. We have to address the north and south issues. So, and we have to think about the the bond cap issue and potentially other county projects, but Yes. and also look at other places for money. Yeah. because there are other places and I think we don't talk about that in August. Um we probably should talk about that in August. Other places for money. Yeah. Um probably I know I didn't say it exactly the way but yeah. No, again this is our wish list and then I just wanted

078to break two things quickly to piggy back on what Dr. Bon said. I would also say the same thing about TR in terms of where we house students while something is being built. TR is another example of school, we wouldn't have to leave them. That's something um and that's that's important because if we've got to move students to another site while we're taking care of the building, that is something else that has to be taken into consideration um in terms of timeline costs, you know, disruptions in the school itself. But then the other thing I wanted to mention too is along the lines of what you were just talking about on Miss Walker. Um to kind of go back and highlight what um Sutton and I were talking about at the beginning, the timeline that

079we've presented to the group. The idea was it it's not anyone on staff's opinion that we look at a bond for one project. And so in doing so, we tried to sort of encapsulate what we could potentially do if we know what the debt capacity. So I think 130 is what we thought about 100. Yeah, I think 130 was a number we were playing around with. But then also looking at if we spread it out over, you know, 10, 12, 15 years, then maybe we have more flexibility in that number. But, you know, we don't we don't really know. We were just kind of brainstorming a little bit when we're looking at the timeline. But that I just wanted to highlight that was one of the reasons why you see multiple projects. there would not

080be anyone that's sorry we need a bond just for this one and I I do want to keep repeating that we don't in I don't think we expect a bond would cover all the projects that we're identifying like even if we just pick maybe three or four projects on this list I still don't think a bond's going to fund all that I think there's going to be other revenue streams that would be used to fund the project. So, well said. So, want to talk about quarters? Uh, could I just throw another thought in here? Uh, you keep talking about a bond. Uh, but of course, a bond has to be paid back. And so, I know we currently have a what I call a lock box or a debt uh payment that we all pay

081in our property tax. Eric, can you remind me again of how how much of our that we collecting or can do can you have you broken it down pennywise? How much of that goes to pay off our debt that's set aside? I don't want to give wrong numbers. um sort of well what I'm trying to do is I guess reverse engineer if we had a hund00 million bond. What what would be the uh yeah how much would we would we have to raise property taxes to pay off a hund00 million bond? That's the question. So a 20-year bond which we'll be doing here you pay off roughly 5% of that you pay off sorry 10% of that bond per year. So you pay 5% of principal and you're paying about 5% interest. So you kind

082of take 10% of whatever the number is. So it might be easy to think about an 80 million bond to start with. That would be 10% would be $8 million. It' be one penny on the tax rate. $160 million bond would require you $16 million per year in PNI payments and that would be two cents on the tax rate. So I just want to put that in the back of your mind. That's what we're talking about is a property tax increase for everything that we're doing here. even if it's spread over time and as we increase it that will only increase our property taxes. We just went through a a very u you know kind of uh difficult thing. So the app appetite uh for the county commission to start raising in multiple pennies also

083needs to be taken into consideration. Well, but this won't happen unless the voters vote to do it and they will know that they're raising taxes by a penny, two pennies, whatever pennies come out to be in order to take care of the schools. You would think people would understand that, but that's not necessarily the case. I would hope they would, but it takes out of y'all's hands to a certain extent versus what you just came through in the last couple weeks. Uh, whatever. Sorry. Madam Chair, I just want to say the last time we had a major bond, it was in uh 2008, I think was the $164 million school bond that helped uh really rebuild our uh you know, community college, northern campus, and and for downtown. When that was passed, there was no

084plan put in place to pay it back. The thought being that organic growth, that wonderful thing of magic would take care of it. Uh, and uh, only reason I say this with some specivity. When I came on as a county commissioner in 2014, my hair went on fire when I realized that there was no plan to pay back that money. And that's why we now have an identified debt box that comes along with our property tax. So that when we put a bond out there, it also resulted not just for mine but many other uh politicians and good thinking people when we do pass a bond the language that goes with it at least here in New Hver County, it says this will raise your property tax by this amount that you're borrowing. So all

085that could be erased with a simple policy decision as far as informing what people do. So when you say of course we're going to pay it back, I'm just saying through lived experience in our generations, that's not always the case. But as long as I have a say in it, it will. And I I think everybody around this table would would agree to that. I just want to It seems to be abstract when we keep talking about, oh, a bond for this kind of, you know, 130, 160, whatever. It has a direct impact on your property taxes. Thank you. Sure. Um we have nine more to go to to so that we need we do need to move on. Um Porter neck is next. Is your question related to Porter neck? Okay. Yeah. Let's let's

086let's look at the next nine. I mean I think Porter neck really needs to be looked at. Um and then we can look at the the others as a group if you want and the others. But what's the input from y'all on Peters neck? I mean we touched on it already. Um, we know the need in the northern part of the county is is enormous and it's only going to continue to get worse. So, do we have questions or comments that we need to make about that or do you all just want to just put it into your ranking? We have two mobiles now. So, I don't think it would be any for two more or is it eight? We have put in our capital budget for this upcoming year with the county to add

087two more. So, would this be an additional four classrooms in addition to those four? that would be on site. The two that are currently now, the two that are budgeted for this year. Does this fund pass an additional four more? Yes. Yeah, that's my assumption. Four more. So, additional four more. Well, that cuts that cost in half, right? No, it would it would change from having four on site to eight on site. Ah, okay. Anyone else? All right, then. Who wants I mean we've got Masonber, we've got Bradley Creek, we got Alderman, we got Bellamy, we got Sunset, Holly Tree, Roland Grace, and one Writesboro Elementary. Um, all have needs. And one of the thoughts that I had was if we're going to ask voters to approve something, then every section of the county needs

088a little crumb in order to make it work. Miss Barnhart had this clever idea that we'd have signs painted and stick them in the dirt at every location and say, you know, the bond money would pay for this at this school, and that's a great idea, but if we only have four things, that doesn't really work. So, is there a way to give these other schools something? I, if I may, I would I would honestly encourage the classroom additions for these middle schools that are listed. Um, to be honest, I think this is a dated request. Looking at our numbers at some of these schools, I don't think these, to be frank, I don't think these should be considered. Which would that be besides Roland? Elementary school. I'm sorry, the elementary school. Did I say

089middle? I apologize. You did. You did. I apologize. But I'm looking at 10 classroom edition of Masonboro, 14 in Bradley Creek, Alderman, and Bellamy. So, so clearing that, Madam Chair. Is it a replacement of the current cottages that are on site to be part of the building? because that is talk we're talking security in that measure versus having multiple buildings on site with a mobile unit. So if my understanding of bringing those project is a replacement of those or is it just an addition to this or just I believe the I believe the request is I mean the idea is to address the growing population needs for these schools and I don't again I think this was originally put forward when we were talking about potential projects we would consider and the conversation started I'll

090say the conversation started before I got into this position but I know at one time I think these focus but looking at some of the other things we have on the list right now I would I would encourage people to consider other items ahead of adding to these elementary schools based on the enrollment numbers that we have which over a three-year review have not increased in size so that's Masonboro Bradley Alderman Bellamy Holly Tree um I'm curious about Sunset Elementary with the security vestibule would that not be a priority? The security vestibules are already and contained in our capital requests every year, isn't it? So that that is an item that um in the previous years we have had in our capital request. So Rob and I had considered and I don't know if that's

091something we could add to the list is including a million dollars a year for security um and technology and that would hit all the schools like you would be providing replacement technology for all the schools if you have you know a technology line and the security line. That's correct. And so and that is in in the timeline we presented but we didn't identify that it would be for all the schools but the idea is it would be applied throughout the district. We would come up with a sustainability plan and then we would replace technology and maybe cameras. I I don't know what the things are at the we would use that money to fund this sustainability plan for technology and security would be the thought. So that would be a part of the bond ask

092that that would be yes I get it takes a minute was done because to your point Eddie did this list probably a year ago this was a year or two maybe even and I think it was it was based on what Miss Barnhart was talking about the the cropper study and that was done in 2022 and so I think it's been updated along the way but I just in looking at as as I'm pulling up capacity numbers right now, I I I don't think we've we're kind of flat in these particular schools are looking for, but we identified um adding rooms. Some of them may have and to your point, Miss Barnard, we I know we may have mobile units at some of that could be more of a safety concern. Um I'm just not

093bursting at the seams, right? At some point I didn't know if that was the discussion to take out those mobile units to add the core space because there are schools that are utilizing mobile units and those you know lifespan changes right but like when you're using them and it's a need for the capacity used and that's how your capacity is labeled as with those units on there like currently quarters neck you have to use the space right so like so some of those are being used for the classroom purposes those consistently. Others are not and I understand that. But I think that for me that affects my ratings of what the priorities are because if they're not being used and you're speaking to what you're saying, why would I want addition? But my understanding like

094at Bellamy are those not being used consistently because that's my understanding what they are. So that to me that that would affect how I rank these. So you're saying you would you would rather have the additions and remove the mobiles if they're being used consistent? Oh yeah. for as far as a safety perspective. I think absolutely I understand that's that is that is something but that is we're talking right to understand if we are consistently using mobiles then that means the full building footprint is not where we need it to be. I'm confused about the cropper study then because if this is based on the cropper study is the was the cropper study not right? Is it not correct? It's it's old now. It's two years. I think it's two years old at 3 years

095old at this point. And so I think I think that highlights some of what Dr. Barnes has talked about in terms of wanting to bring students back to the county and the numbers that we've seen dropping off. And I think that is part of that is part of why that proper study is not bad. Like I get it. I just Well, was it were the numbers correct that they worked? I mean, is there I don't know. They're looking at future growth. I just can't go that off. It showed and I haven't honestly compared, but you know, it did show I think over 10 years growth. And last time I looked at it, our growth was not equal to the growth he had projected, if that makes sense. There was question whether the the original numbers

096were correct were correct for the growth numbers. I will say, you know, for what it's worth, I I mean, I apologize for I think I think part of the reason we wanted to include this is because we weren't trying to throw new information at the committee for discussion. This is information that I think has been presented a couple of times and we didn't feel like it was it was the right time to throw new information out. But as we're talking about it, because I feel like that's sort of the objective is to throw out discussion topics and make sure that all the information is on on the on the table for us. I just wanted to mention that I felt like the things that are identified here as classroom addition requests to these particular elementary

097schools, uh, they will not make the top of my ranking. I'll put it that way. But I don't want to tell anybody else what to do. I just feel like knowing where our numbers are for some of these particular schools, they're not like Porter's situation. Yeah. We I think I think the the other thing to think about too is this maybe more than one thing solves the problem. Once we if we did get a River Lights and we did get a Pine Valley, I've got enough space then to then I think open the conversation about um redistricting to the place that we resolve any issues that may be at our other schools. Does that make sense? If we had a new Pine Valley that had 150 more spots in it, then maybe the Mason Burrow

098and and Bradley Creek problems could be solved that way. Well, Miss Barner the about two different almost two different things. talking about the growth part of the classroom and we're talking about the mobile units and that are trying to get more safety issues or well I think it's hard to have those conversations because we then we're not addressing the safety issues we have at Pine Valley and and Williams not or either or in my opinion it's a safety just to me it's just the safety so so Rob Morgan could you tell us which ones we should probably say, "Hey, maybe you're not as concerned about that way." I mean, when we're thinking about it, cuz we're getting ready to rank, right? Yeah. And we have two more to go. Oh, I know. I had I

099had marked through one, two, three, four, five, six of them that had elementary school behind them on that second page. Is that what you're referring to, Rob? Masonboro, Bradley, Alderman, Bellamy, Sunset, and Molly. Uh, specifically Masonboro, Bradley Creek, Alderman, and Bellamy. Okay. um you know to be honest the sunset um admin area security vestibule I I don't I don't want to say that that should be removed I don't think I don't think that has a timeline in terms of things that we want to continue we want to continue make sure every school's got the security desk but if we can pick that up with the uh capital request we've already got going then we're fine there let's talk about rolling rice and right school real quick because we haven't done that um and we're we're

100we're probably going have to extend times by 10 minutes. What What do we need to know about Roland Grace and what rights? Uh, as far as those go, I I think those are things that could stay on the list, but I don't think that they would rise to the top of the list for the immediate future. Um, would they rise above the elementary schools? Yes. Okay. All right. And then other um Miss Walker, you said you had an other already. Well, that one was the land acquisition. I know if if it went through with the TRA being moved up to there's already land there for the middle school discussion, but will is there a serious discussion or look on maybe potentially need for another well Laney situation be fixed a little bit with the TR

101situation, but looking at I mean it's hard to predict the exact growth that you're going to have in that side of the county, but it's it's I mean it's getting developed right now. I mean I can't imagine it's not going to keep expanding. I mean, will there be a need if you get the middle school taken care of because there's already land there? What other school needs would they be for that area? That's just kind of what I'm putting out there on maybe it's not about other um one of the things that I'm curious about is we have two two that I'm sure of um gym situations that we need. Winter Park doesn't have anywhere for those kids to have any kind of exercise. So, they have to, you know, they have to go out

102in the rain or they don't get to do it. Um, and then where is it? Loland Gray. So, is there a way to get the gym and the gym renovation for those two schools another way, Rob and Ashley? Does it have to come under a bond situation or can we do it some other way would be my question. Well, I would echo Dr. Barnes earlier. I don't I don't know. That's for me to decide, but my gut tells me that that could be done another way that it would not have to go under. That helps me with my my range. I would Ashley, I certainly trust your input if you disagree. I mean, it would just be our normal avenues lottery or a capital county appropriation request. What about a partnership with private funders? Is

103that the possibility that we're allowed? specifically there's one group um with Hanover High School like I know that initially there's we will always be willing to take donations so that but what I'm saying is so Isaac Bear would be a great one to talk about that avenue too there's a willingness to have some joint private donors in the conversation so there's not a restriction on that they can leave um I have a question about multi-purpose frame um schools that don't have those, it is a big deal in the dayto-day activities upstairs. And so I'm over here marking and crossing out and remarking out trying to decide between a safety vestibule and a multi-purpose room. And so I just know that um although we may or may not be able to um answer questions about learning

104cottages or or not, um a a mo a multi-purpose room is a big deal to the schools that don't have those. Um, so I'm kind of keep going back and forth between some of the updates at some of the elementary schools versus the classroom expansion conversation cuz I was following along and understanding everything, but I will just speak to um, you know, my time at Bellamy not having a multi-purpose room. um it just means that every event related to families dismissal, everything is happening in a cafeteria. So just just something to think about and and my hope would be I guess if we had an estimate of what that would cost you know that again that's my crumb idea but if we can do it another way with a capital ask because again I I

105I think that's a big need in all the schools they have these other spaces that they need to do um things that they they currently don't indoor gym I mean currently there are some schools that don't have a space to do indoor gym Yeah, I know. And and and I want to see it done, but if we can done it with with our capital request, which means we have to move it up from that exhaustive list we have and move those up to the top of that, too. Um, so Dr. Barnes is passing you out this little summary sheet with the dollars and cents on it. Don't look at the dollars and cents, but just do your ranking on that and that's what we'll collect. And then he'll make a Google sheet and you can

106see how the priority turned out. Are we putting Are we putting the three together or not? Are they separate? I know we talked a lot about them being a If you guys are comfortable with my recommendation or at least my thought moving forward, I would use the River Lights one and not use the Williams one because that would be unless you felt like if you put both numbers down in both those spots, it's going to say to me that you want both of them still. Does that make sense? Mhm. So if you agree that River Lights and then not rebuild Williams, just use the River Lights number and don't put anything in the Williams spot. Chris, do you want us to strike strike through Williams? You can. If you want to strike Williams, strike Williams.

107Yeah. Okay. And you do you want all the rest of these to have a number next to them or I would say go as far down as you think you can but knowing understanding that you're you're not this you're already looking at a decadesl long plan. Mhm. Yeah. Sir, do we put our names on those sheets? I would rather you not. Okay. We know your handwriting. Sorry. I'm kidding. Y'all know what my number one is. So if I can make a comment, um you had um you were talking earlier about having various projects and trying to fit them in a certain time frame in terms of issuance of bonds. Um I felt like I was passing notes in school to Eric while everybody was talking, but um we saw it. I did I did want

108to make sure that you were aware that the county has seven years to issue the bonds uh once the referendum is is approved. um there can be a three-year extension, but typically it's seven years. So, I just wanted to throw that out there. So, um once the voters approve a bond referendum, we we don't have forever to actually issue or sell those bonds. Okay. Um we have seven years to do that. We do have seven years and that allows as superintendent said to pay down some prior years. So when you talk about what the maximum debt capacity is 100 million I mean that amount is constantly coming down and being added to um and so there's probably more flexibility than maybe when I say 100 million then because you've got we pay down roughly $40

109million a year in principal plus sevenyear chunks of time a sevenyear one year sevenyear chunk of time to finish start the projects to get the funds for them. Yeah. And so you have longer than once you've issued the bonds then you have the time to spend the bonds as well but actually selling the bonds you have. Okay, let's talk real quick. This is skipped over as a pair. Um, I think in a nutshell, um, it's going to be Patty's, you know, the the most cottages in Isaac Bear have exceeded their lifespan and, um, we don't own the land. There's a study been done and we have to figure out what we can do there. But I've always felt like that was separate from this. And so I would look at nominations for an ad hoc

110committee to study the Isaac Bear situation, what is, what could be, and how it would go and come back to us with a report. And um and I would, if she's willing to accept, I would nominate Livia for that. And I would probably nominate Miss Barnhart for that. And I have a couple other ideas, but I'd like some ideas from you all. Probably it would have to be Dr. Morgan and then pardon me. Yeah, I think it would have um And would we not want someone from education there like Dr. Hamilton to represent that aspect of it? I don't know. She says, "Uh oh, my name's been used in a sentence." Um, so anyway, those are those are my thoughts, but I would I would like to um I'd like to recommend principal Alliance as

111well. Uh it's my understanding that there's a sunset clause on the design that's been built for the build or that's been designed for the building and correct me if I'm wrong, but 2020 2727. That's a good idea. Um is that's when the designs you want to put that in the form of motion? what the motion I I'm just saying the design that has been made is good through 2027. So just for the information of the committee. Yeah, that that's one reason why to have an ad hoc committee because if something's going to be done there, it's got to be done pretty quickly. Um it's going to sunset. Same with River. We we we can't we don't have all the time in the world. It's it's been lost. So does anybody have any other ideas for

112this ad hoc committee on the lines? The lines. Next. So, okay, I've got Josie Balines, Livian, Rob. How many can I have on an ad hoc? Would that [Music] be a good idea? Yeah. Do we know who that'd be? I would go with firstgan. All right. So, would Okay. So, here we go. Livian, Josie, Rob, Robin, and somebody from UNCCW. Okay, I make that. I move that we go with that. Well, I would make an amendment then because I think that Commissioner Walker was part of the ad hoc committee from a few years ago added as well. I can't forget. Can we do six? Okay. I thought ad hoc needed to be small, but yeah. Okay, we'll do six. I mean, if if that's the will of the committee. Yeah. And I'll second that. Okay.

113Yes. So, we're talking about an ad hoc committee to look at and report back to us and can can y'all get together pretty quick and can we get like some something for the next meeting um of Dr. Morgan, Dr. Hamilton, Livian Jones, Vice Chair Josie Barnhart, and Commissioner Stephanie Walker, and somebody that the superintendent suggests that would be from UNCW that's willing to do it. We'll leave that one up in the air. I feel like the the liaison might be a good person for that. France to Carter. We'll we'll find someone from UNW to represent that group. So, all in favor of that say I. I. Anyone opposed? Okay, that passes. Are we putting Are we ranking Isaac Bear on here, too? Because I feel like that's a separate conversation. You know what I mean?

114Well, then if you do, just rank it last. Okay. There's 16 of them. I think the complexity of the funding for that is going to be different, right? It's important though. I'm not saying it's not. No, no, it's it's a huge importance. It's just I don't think it can be a part of this. So, if you want to pass those this way, if you're finished, Dr. Mark's going to do a Google doc and then send it to everybody. And then what do we do next? Is that our recommendation to the board? Yes, that would be the committee's recommendation to the board for discussion. So, we have to wait until the tally is counted and I'm not done. So, I'm going to wait till after the meeting. I got my top five and then the rest

115of the car that we will in just a minute. Okay. Before I lose control, Dr. Barnes and Commissioner Zapple before I lose control of this meeting. Um, we had we had several other things on here and you've got it in your packet. And so if you have any interest in understanding the three endowment grants requests or grants that we have out there, the health science grant is the oldest and the information on how much it is and how it's functioning that's in your board packet. The same thing with early literacy grant um you know it it it's underway how much we spent the percentage of what we spent commissioners Apple is there. We can touch on those things at our next meeting, but you have that information now. And I say that to you because

116we have a grant request out there now for 42 positions. And we're desperate to get that from the endowment. So, those of you who have connections to the endowment, we're asking you, we've asked the county commissioners to endorse and we don't have that yet. Um, but we we really need those 42 positions. And if you can speak a word into an endowment board member, we'd appreciate it. I would say I speak for Rob. I will say I've always been in support of this letter. So you guys know any other comm county commissioners speak for himself, but like that you can I mean we need at least three people that want to endorse a letter. That's why I gave you the because in talking with one of you um they said well what's that health science

117grant you know and the other question was okay on the ELF program which is the early learning facil facilitators um you know that you've spent 23% of the money and you know where's your data but as you know there's even one position in ELS that's not that's not filled because I think it was filled and then that person left and so we have one elf position not not filled. That's why it's a three-year grant because we're going to have the data after it takes time to get data takes time just do it one year. And so there's one proposal I've heard out in the community that oh well the endowment might just fund you for a year. Well, there's not going to be enough data because the goal of these endowment asks is to take

118the data that we get from a three-year study, take it to Raleigh and not only get New Hover, but maybe get Pender, maybe get Brunswick. Um, and we are going to absolutely volunteer us to be a pilot at the state level exactly like we do here. Here's the data for it and we think the state representatives can take that information and get us a pilot at the state level and then maybe take it statewide and that'll make a huge difference in in the state of North Carolina. But we've learned from going to Raleigh often is if we bring something that's tri county or regional or statewide, we have a much better chance of getting something done. And so that's going to be our focus. But we're in a desperate need for these 42 positions and

119we need y'all's help. With that said, let's look at the last meeting date before we leave here because there's enough of us that this elephant is too large to not do some of it in person. Right now, the last thing we were looking at before we started the meeting was August 7, skipping over the month of July. So, all of you vacationing people get to go on vacation. Um, how does August 7 look? Anybody know they're out of town on August 7th or there's another meeting yet? You're not here, Lisa. Okay, it works for me. All right. So, we'll check with the people who aren't here and then we will send that out and see what happens. um is the expectation of potentially either August 7th or beyond and the idea of the meet the

120subcommittee to meet prior to okay I would hope so even that clarity zoom or meet or whatever you don't have to be in person um and with only one board member on it we don't have to worry about advertising any of that stuff so we're good so so I have one question for for Eric if you don't mind what is the timeline because You're all talking about what is the timeline that we have to work with realistically if we wanted to get this in front of the L LGC because that's where it has to go. So I think about a year ago I brought a timeline and I've looked at it again and it still looks like a valid timeline. So, um, that timeline indicated October the 31st to have the full scope determined and

121then use the next three months to hone in on the cost and once we know the projects and have a better idea as the cost then we can start the full process for the uh the go bond that need that that needs to start in in uh March or April. Yes. Realistically, this committee needs to come up with some something decently solid by October or at the latest. I mean, you want it sooner than that. We don't have any slack, but we have people to do this. Just wanted to put that out there. If I could add in, it's great thought, Stephanie. One of the problems we ran into two years ago, I guess, with the transportation bond, uh, as we tried to get it is that anytime you push a countywide bond, you need

122to identify a specific group, uh, or strategy for educating the public about what it's about. uh at that time with the transportation bond uh we had identified the chamber and they you know there's a lot of talk around it but it uh they said that's not enough time in the same kind of time frame. So I'm just warning that uh discussion of a bond you need to identify the group or the strategy of how it's going to be educated because that was one of the reason one of many reasons that the transportation bond did not pass is we did not have the support of a a large organized group to get out to the public and educate them. Well, and I don't want to have this next meeting unless I think she texted me earlier.

123She said she was available for the 7th. Um, but I would like to have that discussion at our next meeting. It's a great idea. Some of this stuff is is not burning yet, but it's certainly smoldering and we need to we need we need to get this this is the first step. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be the chamber. They they are, you know, an obvious choice because they cover the whole area. But if I don't want it to be just one group either. There you go. The Rotaries out there. Yep. I mean, we have some friends in the community. So, you're thinking the right way. It just it's a really important component. Now, while I have you bond experts in the room, I am under the impression that at some point a public

124relations firm gets involved and helps with this. Am I right or am I wrong? Did I make that up? Dr. You're not making a head motion, but I remember I'm going to ask Ashley to correct me if I'm wrong, but we cannot use school funding for a bond for advocating for a bond because we can't use state money to advocate for voting purposes. County can and it's and is it part of the um publication the the communitywide knowledge? Doesn't it come through the county? I I just remember that in some some something that I I could be wrong. So, a county cannot advocate for the bond, but they can educate on what the bond. Okay. Um I don't remember in the past if the county has hired to do that. I don't recall seeing that,

125but it's a lot of you have a pretty large machine, but I maybe it was that October meeting, but something was maybe in preparation for the October meeting last year. something about y'all don't do your own PR. It comes from the county level. I'll I'll figure out where that came from. Um you may want to focus on baking the cake. That sounds a little more like right. Let's get a couple steps down the roads before. Yeah, it's it's not a high priority, but it it it's definitely to be considered. Does anyone have anything else because we're 15 almost 20 minutes over and I apologize for that because we have an extended time or anything. Anything else? Anything else? Then a motion to adjurnn. Hello. I'll make a motion to adjurnn and I'll second it. All

126right. This is adjourned and y'all can have side conversations now. Sir. Hey.