001foreign second time and this is almost 30. now taking our picture probably a lot of people 150. [Music] let's spin spin good morning I call the special board meeting to order Miss Bowie would you please call the roll good morning Melissa Mason present Hugh McManus Pete wildivore present Stephanie craville here Pat Bradford here Stephanie Walker here and Josie Barnhart yeah we have a quorum Miss Barnhart would you please lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance of the United States thank you very much my name is Pete wildebear and as chairman of the board of education I am the presiding officer for this hearing we are here to consider an appeal by Katie Gage pursuant to board policy 2500 board policy 3210 and the reconsideration procedures for instructional materials that were previously developed
002to implement policy the appeal regards Ms Gates objection to instructional materials used in an AP English class and excuse me English language and composition class at Eugene Ashley High School specifically the objection is the use of the book stamped racism anti-racism and You by Jason Reynolds and ibram X candy on December 14 2022 Miss Gates submitted an objection in writing to the principal of the school regarding the use of the book in question in a particular AP uh English language and composition class at Eugene Ashley High School the schools media and Technology advisory committee reviewed the objection and on January 12 2023 the committee voted to take no action in response to Ms Gates objection on January 17 2023 the principal communicated the school level committee's decision to Ms Gates on February 13 2023 Miss
003Gates submitted to the superintendent a request for review of the school's decision the school district's media and Technology advisory committee reviewed the challenge material surveyed appraisals of the material from professional reviewing sources reviewed the decision of the school level media technology advisory committee and prepared written findings and a recommendation to the superintendent on March 29 2023 the school district committee recommended to the superintendent that superintendent uphold the school level committee's determination to take no action on March 31st 2023 the school district committee's recommendation was communicated excuse me to the superintendent and on April 14 2023 the superintendent communicated the school district committee's recommendation Ms Gates the superintendent's April 14 2023 Communication in Miss Gates constituted the superintendent's written decision to uphold the school level committee's determination to take no action on May 9th 2023 Miss
004Gage petitioned the board of education for hearing to review the superintendent's decision on July 11 2023 the board voted to exercise its discretion to Grant a hearing the public has been given adequate notice of the hearing and has ample opportunity to be heard on this matter to begin the date of this hearing was reported weeks ago in a local in the local press and the board provided public notice of the hearing on August 30th 2023 moreover the board conducts a one-hour call the audience session at each of its monthly regular board meetings which provides members of the public an opportunity to speak for up to three minutes on issues related to the business of the board and School District at the August 1st 2023 regular board meeting the board provided the public an extra 30
005minutes of call the audience time devoted solely to public comments on the issue of challenging instructional materials used in New Hanover County Schools but I am getting a little ahead of myself we do need to approve the agenda so do I have a motion to approve the agenda so moved is there a second second first and second is there any discussion if not all in favor please signify by saying aye aye all opposed carry 7-0 women's case to petition or please introduce herself I'm Katie Gates good morning good morning will the school district's representative for the hearing please introduce herself good morning I'm Dawn Princeton good morning in a few minutes the boards will hear presentations from his Gates and from his Brinson on behalf of the school district Miss Gates would provide an opportunity
006to have a representative present on her behalf at the hearing such as an attorney and has chosen not to be represented by legal counsel at the hearing the school district is not represented by legal counsel at the hearing either just to let you know each side will be allotted 20 minutes to make its presentation as a petitioner Ms Gates was given an opportunity to reserve some of her time for rebuttal but has chosen not to do so each side will be given a five-minute warning before your time has expired the parties may not call any witnesses to testify and there will be no cross-examination of the party meaning the parties will not be permitted to ask each other questions follow each presentation the board members will have an opportunity to ask questions at this time
007I acknowledge the board's receipt of the documents that are included within the administrative record both parties will provide an opportunity to submit documents to be included in the administrative record these documents were provided to board members in advance of the hearing were also made available to both Ms Gates and Miss Princeton advance to the hearing moreover the book in question was made available to each board member in advance of the hearing in addition both parties were provided an opportunity to include a physician statement within the administrative record the board attorney included the documents marked as exhibits one through four which consist of the North Carolina General statute 115c 98 board policy 2500 board policy 3210 and the reconcil reconsideration excuse me procedures for instructional materials that were previously developed to implement policy Miss Gates included
008the documents exhibit marked as exhibits five through ten exhibit five is Miss Gates position statement the school district included documents marked exhibits 11-36 the school district did not submit a position statement Miss Gates can you please affirm that all the documents you asked to be made part of the administrative records have been made a part of the administrative record yes thank you Mr Brinson can you please confirm the documents you asked to be made part of the administrative record have been made part of the administrative record yes they have thank you very much I will now ask the board attorney to introduce himself and to review legal standard that applies to this hearing thank you Mr chairman my name is Jonathan Vogel and I serve as the board attorney my role in today's hearing is
009limited to providing legal advice to the board in accordance with policy 2500 the legal Rules of Evidence do not apply to information considered by the board in this hearing and the board may consider any information that a reasonably prudent person would consider in conducting the serious Affairs of a business the purpose of the hearing is for the board to determine whether Ms Gates challenge to the book stamped racism anti-racism anti-racism and you has Merit and pursuant to the board's reconsideration procedures for instructional materials whether that book should be quote retained removed from the New Hanover County Schools entirely whether it should be removed to another school level or whether its availability should be restricted end quote the legal standard for today's hearing is found within state law which is derived from the leading United States
010Supreme Court case on the subject called Board of Education versus Pico North Carolina General statutes 115c-98 provides in relevant part quote a local Board of Education May establish a community media advisory committee to investigate and evaluate challenges from parents teachers and members of the public to textbooks and supplementary instructional materials on the grounds that they are educationally unsuitable pervasively vulgar or inappropriate to the age maturity or grade level of the students end quote it also provides quote the local board at all times has sole Authority and discretion to determine whether a challenge has Merit and whether challenge material should be retained or removed end quote both parties were advised to focus their advocacy on and I hereby advise the board to likewise focus on whether the book in question is one educationally unsuitable two pervasively
011vulgar or three inappropriate to the age maturity or grade level of the students thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr Vogel as we begin let me let me state to all participants the parties and board members are to be respectful and not interrupt each other I also ask the audience to be respectful and not interrupt the parties or board members and not otherwise disrupt the proceeding thank you for your help in that we will now hear from Ms Gates petitioner please remind me that your presentation should be limited to 20 minutes in this case thank you Justice Berger stated in the 1982 case Pico versus The Island Trees Board of Education with respect to the education of children in elementary and secondary schools the school board May properly determine in many cases that a particular
012book or a particular course or even a particular area of knowledge is not educationally suitable for inclusion within the body of knowledge the school seeks to impart so my objective this morning is to provide sufficient evidence that our petitioned to the book stamped racism anti-racism in You by Reynolds and Candy be removed from all classrooms in New Hanover County schools because it is educationally unsuitable and policy non-compliant I am not asking it to be removed from the libraries this presentation will include six explanations to support my request number one stamped is educationally unsuitable because it was chosen based on the content not the craft my first step in this book challenge Journey was to petition the school level media and Technology advisory committee known as mtac this is the initial group that reviews the book
013or curriculum challenges as part of their justification for denying my challenge the mtac stated the use of any text in AP language is based on the craft not the content based on this requirement asking students to examine and explain the rhetorical craft and related prowess of stamped would be a reasonable assignment for any AP language in composition class however Miss Kidwell who teaches the AP Language and Composition class at Ashley High School she used part of the dialectical Journal homework assignment and final group assignment to ask content-based questions like why study the history of racist ideas was Martin Luther King fighting for civil rights or freedom who were some of the complicated figures with respect to their ideas about race and racism past and present explain the Wilmington queue of 1898 the Tulsa Massacre the
0141906 Atlanta race riot Elaine Massacre and Ocoee Massacre Kidwell asked how does information from stamped interact with these historical tragedies now if this were an AP class an African-American history or in civil rights one might comprehend the use of those questions and the focus on researching the answers but it is not that is not the purpose of this class it is a course based on English rhetoric and composition so why focus on all the content how does this focus on civil rights history and racism prepare the students to pass the AP language and composition exam which tests them on rhetorical analysis I submit to you it does not number two stamped is educationally unsuitable given it does not prepare AP students adequately for their exam so why do students in New Hanover County take AP
015classes according to Dr Faison our students are not taking these classes just for a weighted GPA 91 percent of the students enrolled in AP classes take the AP exam for the purpose of getting a jump start on obtaining college credits yet in 2023 a mere 21 of New Hanover County students 21 achieved a score of a four or a five on the AP language and composition exam which is the national Benchmark for awarding college credit putting it another way one in five students passed the exam or there's a 79 failure rate from the most recent posts on the North Carolina school reports website Ashley High School's overall AP test scores across all AP classes were lower when compared to other New Hanover County schools in North Carolina State data that means Ashley High School had
016the lowest AP scores of any High School in the district so are teachers focused on providing the best learning Solutions and resources for our students to be successful or are they focused on ensuring the resources meet a personal bias Miss Kidwell had to support a syllabus as she had to submit excuse me a syllabus to the principal and the College Board in order to get AP course approval turns out this college board approved syllabus had zero mention no mention of the book stamped and the approved syllabus was not the one that she presented to her students and the parents exhibit a is the student syllabus which Miss Kidwell handed out in class that does list stamped why did Kidwell omit stamped in her college board approved syllabus was stamped the best selection to teach rhetorical
017devices and prepare students for the AP exam or was it really the content of the book that Miss Kidwell cared about most in an email to the board regarding my challenge to stamped Miss Kidwell had criticized Thomas Jefferson and systems of government like democracies and capitalism while defending communist Angela Davis communism and socialism she does not defend the use of this book to teach English and composition but rather defends the book's content I submit the book's content was her priority to introduce and teach her preferred version of history and our children paid the price with their low test scores number three stamped is educationally unsuitable because it does not align with the district quality review checklist or what I'll refer to as QRC nor District policy 3200 see exhibit B policy 3200 States teachers must
018determine the material is appropriate for the classroom by using the quality review checklist to determine educational suitability and justification to gain approval to add a book to their curriculum some of the questions on this QRC checklist are as follows is the content free of biases and stereotypes that could be offensive to a subgroup does it contain material considered to be inflammatory controversial demeaning or offensive to subgroups well Reynolds and Candy refer to white people 255 times in a negative light with the exception of one white person they Brainwashed the reader that all the white people are racist and are to blame for everything wrong in America how do you think these claims make everyday average white students required to read this book feel are our children today supposed to feel responsible for slavery and racism
019I believe the author would like to make them feel that way the claims are inflammatory and they're controversial they're demeaning and they're offensive to subgroups another QRC question is does the task build students cultural competence through learning about and developing pride in their own culture as well as the culture of others stamps completely demeans the American story culture and Origins with a biased portrayal of information today only 18 percent of young adults feel very proud to be an American compared to 85 percent in 2013. in 10 years young adult American Pride dropped 67 percent feeding our children propaganda like stamped to distort American history is behind the sharp decline so our AP teachers allowed to offend subgroups bypassing the QRC and any District level accountability I was informed the AP classes in the district do
020not follow the quality review checklist because in lieu of that AP syllabi and materials are verified by the principal and the College Board this information is not expressed in policy 3200 so did Miss kidwell's syllabus go through the proper channels both stamped and a book 57 bus Which focuses on gender identity where required readings in her class that were left off the College Board syllabus when she submitted her class for approval by the College Board those two books remain entirely unapproved with zero accountability via educational suitability of the book was never evaluated either by the College Board nor the mtac prior to its use in the classroom this is a deceitful practice the question then becomes how are the 12 unapproved copies of stamped available for Ashley high school students I submit there's a large
021loophole copies were introduced to Ashley High School outside of the mtac purview to support an adult staff Global read aloud initiative these books meant for staff then made their way to the library with records showing Miss Kidwell requested the stamped books ordered for the library policy 3200 does not exempt the AP course curriculum from the quality review checklist this would seem directly opposed to the clear intent of the Board of Education versus Pico which establishes the right of the local school district and Community to make Final determinations on the suitability of supplemental materials for school use the book stamped did not go through any of the normal approval processes and channels either by the college board or the district quality review process for library or classroom use therefore it's educationally unsuitable New Hanover County policy
0223200 also states that instructional materials should be representative of the rich diversity of our nation and appropriate for the maturity levels and abilities of the students so I propose stamped as educationally unsuitable because it is written on a fifth grade reading level please see Exhibit C there is a scientific approach to measuring the text complexity and assessing the appropriate age of reading materials called Lexile measures Lexile measures are the gold standard for matching readers to texts and tracking student growth towards College and Career readiness this book has a score of 1000 l which means it's suitable for readers aged 9 through 13. this class in question is a college level AP class number five stamped is educationally unsuitable because it is based on biased manipulative opinion instead of clear facts the school level mtac committee
023report states that stamps introduction Pages provide clear evidence of purpose and evidence of clear position stating the author defined his terms racist anti-racist assimilationist and segregationist in actuality the author's own definitions are re-definitions of those existing words modified according to his own personal opinions but presented as facts they are not fact Kennedy States the way in which I've formulated definitions of racism racist anti-racism and anti-racist have not only been based on some sort of historical evidence but also Kimberly crenshaw's intersectional Theory Kennedy admits he is redefining words Loosely based on history examples of how the authors redefine these words can be heard in quotes from stamped and I'm reading them as written with incomplete sentences page 247 whether you read or want to be a segregationist a hater an assimilationist a coward or an anti-racist
024someone who truly loves choice is yours don't freak out Pages three and four segregationists are haters like real haters people who hate you for not being like them assimilationists are people who like you but with quotation marks then there are anti-racists they love you because they like you and they are like you students at an impressionable age are manipulated into choosing a category to affiliate with based on how they should be labeled with only these three labels as options ultimately the authors pigeonhole the readers into labeling themselves someone who truly loves or what is an anti-racist because what student wants to align with being a hater or a coward candy stated in the 2021 interview and so I just can't imagine a pathway to being anti-racist that does not engage critical race Theory page three
025of stamp says the thief of racism is all around this book this not history book this present book is meant to take you on a race Journey from then to now to show how we feel why we feel why we live how we live Kendy says himself this is not a history book and yet Kidwell is using it as such this is a class to teach rhetoric at the Collegiate level ultimately the strong rhetoric used by the authors leads to coercion and in and of itself propaganda britannica.com States comparatively deliberate selectivity and manipulation distinguish propaganda from education students cannot distinguish fact from opinion when redefined words facts and opinions are so intertwined there's simply no way to hear Kenny's statements as anything other than an expression of his intent to formulate new definitions to suit
026his work his work being based on the ideology and the artificial construct that you are either an oppressor or you're being oppressed this is a false ideology that Fosters a victim mindset with no real solutions only Division and distrust the 1982 Pico case Justin Blackman Justice Blackman says a free and public education if faithful to the idea of secular instruction and political neutrality will not be partisan of any um or enemy of any class Creed party or faction the court therefore made it clear that the imposition of ideological discipline was not a proper undertaking for school communities number six stamped is educationally unsuitable because of its numerous and accurate and misleading sources the school level mtac stated primary sources are considered the most authoritative sources on a subject I would agree they also stated they
027assumed the accuracy of those primary sources and mentioned the book was on the New York Times bestseller list for non-fiction as if that in and of itself equates to doing due diligence to ensure the accuracy of the book's material when I initially challenged stamped I was told it was not being presented as a fact but as an argument why would the mtac defend the validity of the book selection because it uses primary source information if this were not meant to be considered a fact-based book the author cites primary sources as if his writing is factual and the book is categorized as non-fiction yet the author manipulates The Source information and it's not just a page number error for example in reference to President Lincoln and the days after the Emancipation Proclamation Kennedy and Reynolds write
028on page 105. what Lincoln was comfortable with however was the way black people praised him they'd run up to him in the street drop to their knees and kiss his hands the source that he actually used says at every step Lincoln was besieged by former slaves who hailed him as a messiah and they fell on their knees before the embarrassed president who asked them to remain standing note the original context and the meaning versus the way it was presented stamped is presenting a bias Viewpoint it's just the opposite of what the source says did you hear the difference The Source clearly points out President Lincoln was not comfortable with the praise he was receiving and was in fact embarrassed by it so what is the purpose of this twist is it to alter the perception
029of one of America's most esteemed leaders to fit his narrative primary sources are important but when an author is derelict in using these sources honestly and accurately the work becomes confusing for the student to distinguish between fact fiction and history the information May contradict what they are learning in their classes or worse they may never have an opportunity to find out they have received misinformation or disputed information so they won't be able to challenge or think about it independently they have no other choice but to accept a fiction as fact just because he is citing primary sources doesn't mean he is using Source material with proper context the district level mtac fell prey to this deception as well they say the work as a whole can be assumed to actually accurately represent the primary sources
030clearly it does not we all know what happens when you assume I wonder if all the accolades Kennedy has received were because it was assumed he would actually capture primary sources accurately the mtac further stated we must take into account the original author who did this research is a specialist in African-American history by whose standards what if our AP students come away from this class assuming these sources the way that represented and stamped are true is that an appropriate education for them in summation we reiterate the book stamped is educationally unsuitable because one it is not based on the rhetorical craft two it does not prepare the students adequately for their AP exam three it doesn't align with the quality review checklist for it is written on a fifth grade reading level five it is
031based on bias manipulative opinion instead of facts six it contains numerous clearly and accurate and misleading sources Justice Berger in Pico States how are fundamental values to be inculcated except by having school boards make content-based decisions about the appropriateness of retaining materials in the school library and the curriculum in order to fulfill its function an elected School Board must express its views on the subject which are taught to its students in doing so those elected officials Express the views of their community Justice O'Connor also States in Pico it is the school board that must determine educational suitability thank you thank you Mesquite and I do want to apologize that we did not give you a five minute warning so I do apologize for that I will now give the an opportunity for the board members
032to ask questions of Ms Gates and to keep order we will do it in the same order throughout the day Miss Mason you will be first if you'd like to ask a question and just let everyone know we're going to go around several times everyone who's going to be able to ask a question each time Miss Mason uh thank you Miss Gates um for for being here my question for you is you removed your daughter from being able to use this book how much instructional time was lost for her this was a month-long assignment so she missed a month of instruction that thereby she's missing the discussion she's missing the writing components the education on whatever rhetorical devices were there in order for her to be outside the classroom so one month thank you thank
033you Mr McManus good morning Miss Gage did you your daughter or or husband read and discuss the exhibit a the AP syllabus in Beau black letters which says content disclaimer on controversial materials which states as the AP program engages students in college level work the AP Language and Composition course may include perspectives that could be considered controversial including reference to ethnicity nationality religion politics race dialect sexuality gender and AP language did read that yeah and she took the course yes sir thank you thank you Mr McMahon I will be third uh Miss Gates did the teacher and or School share a plan with you to include their ways of including your daughter in class if she did agree to take a separate book she was not included in any of the educational components for that
034month she was required to read one of three other four other books that Ms kidwall provided and she had to do her rhetorical analysis through the dialectical Journal she missed out on the final group project thank you MS crabill is not next I have an order um so miss case I'm wondering why you believe you have the right to dictate what the whole County can read and not just what your child can read okay folks we do need to hear from his Gates thank you did you know Miss crib Bill thank you for the question it's not about what I want what I'm doing is calling into accountability School Board policy 3200 to be policing if you will the mtac Committees and what is actually being presented in our schools such that materials are appropriately
035scrutinized and I might add that um one thing in response also to Mr mcmanus's question is I understand that AP presents controversial viewpoints and I do believe that in order to be a critical thinker you must be exposed to all sorts of viewpoints but you must be exposed in such a way where there is a fair sampling of materials if I could quote Rosenberger and rectors from 1995 it says Viewpoint discrimination is the most egregious form of content discrimination so I Ask of the six books assigned in this class five of six represented racism and civil rights with no alternative viewpoints so if we're going to do this well as an AP course and expose our kids to books like this uh controversial material then let's do so with a fair representation put a book
036from Thomas Soule in there let kids see the difference of opinion so that they are not indoctrinated they are educated my point being put a variety of resources so our kids can be critical thinkers and if we go back this is my last statement regarding that if we go back to the call to audience and the extended call if I recall pretty much both sides said they want their kids exposed to multiple viewpoints I would say both sides agree I agree I want my kids to be exposed to that where's the alternative viewpoint uh audience I would ask you to work with us we have a lot to get through today and we stop every time it's going to be a lot longer so do appreciate your uh fervor in that but miss Bradford your
037question Miss Gates is your daughter taking any other AP classes yes she has taken AP environmental science and she is taking two AP History classes this year but primarily she has spent her Junior and Senior year at Cape Fear Community College doing dual enrollment thank you Miss Walker thank you thank you Miss Gates uh my question is in your appeal to the district level mtac committee you stated quote I have no problem with how the book aligns with the curriculum the committee stated the use of any AP text in language and composition is based on Craft and not content and also quote is not the curriculum alignment with ap Lang and comp course description or corresponding standards in the NC standard course of study that I object to it is about the ideas presented in
038the manner and tone which are presented so just to be clear according to your statements you don't have an issue with how it aligns with curriculum or with the AP Lang comp horse or NC standard you just don't like the ideas and content so yes that I would say that the mtac committee presented uh all the ways with examples that the book stamped aligned with its rhetoric to the ncdpi state standards for Senior English and so I don't have a problem with where it aligns with that rhetoric what I have a problem with is the omission of facts the bias viewpoints the source and accuracies that lead children to beliefs of false perspective on history and so if she's teaching it content based presenting this supposedly as an argument but actually as history when we
039talk about rhetoric being effective it can be and I would say that rhetoric can be so effective it becomes propaganda and manipulation which is what I see here thank you and we will finish with Miss uh Barnhart Miss Barnhart your first round question please Miss Casey your daughter took this AP course did she do you mind sharing the score that she received yes I'd be happy to she's an amazing driven student and despite missing a month of class she received a four on her exam so she passed and will be taking that credit thank you we will go around again uh Miss Mason do you have a follow-up question no follow-up question okay Mr McManus do you have a follow-up question uh yes sir thank you um did you again you your husband or your
040daughter read what AP stands for and I'd like to say the exhibit number but it was not I don't have the exhibit number which says AP opposes indoctrination AP students are expected to analyze different perspectives from their own and no points on AP exam are awarded for agreement with anyone's viewpoint AP students are not required to fill certain ways about themselves or course content AP courses instead develop students abilities to assess The credibility of sources for all conclusions and make up their own minds as the AP English Literature course States AP students are not expected or asked to subscribe to anyone specific set of cultural or political values but are expected to have the maturity to analyze others perspectives differ from their own and to question the meaning the purpose or the effect of such
041content with the literary work as a whole did you read that again I'm going to ask one more time please again we want to hear from his case we're going to later on we'll hear from his Princeton we don't need the clapping and yelling in between thank you very much Miss Gates yes Mr McManus I've read that and and I submit to you that controversial and it's it's really a reiteration of what I've already said that the controversial material is totally fine where is the alternative Viewpoint where where where is the child able to weigh and balance arguments and opinions versus history and an alternative side with you know when we talk about the misleading sources of this book I think that that needs to be a primary component but also when you talk about
042the maturity of a student these students are supposed to be mature enough uh to be taking a college level course um I would say that there's a a psychoanalyst who Eric Erickson is actually the last exhibit that I submitted to you and who analyzed the eight stages of psychosocial development and he States in his work the fifth stage of development between 12 and 18 is where adolescents search for a sense of self and personal identity through intense exploration of personal values beliefs and goals as they transition into adulthood this period is marked by a great influence by teachers so if the teacher is presenting five of six books with Viewpoint discrimination then I would say that that kid after being exposed for a year to that teacher would likely be swayed and so that's what
043I'm concerned about and if you want to consider maybe that was more of an adolescent age group let's look at ages 19 through 40 the sixth stage of psychosocial development in young adults which is where they develop the concept of intimacy or isolation so intimacy applied to anti-racism so you can be truly loved people are going to gravitate towards that or if they have a differing Viewpoint if they're an assimilationist or a segregationist a hater or a coward they're going to be isolated because who wants to be that so they're going to stand alone and that impact from this propaganda from this indoctrination not education is going to impact them for the rest of their life according to Eric Erickson these are really key developmental stages thus the need for a variety of sources that
044present a variety of arguments and prevent Viewpoint discrimination my follow-up question is how is this overall affected your daughter well that's a loaded question I would say that she experienced a lot of isolation in class because there were teachers students adults and community members posting on Instagram and social media condemning me and condemning my daughter which impacted her socially unfortunately academically she was able to push through but she absolutely dreads being in school this year but she will do just fine because she's a fighter and she's an overcomer thank you thank you Miss Gates do you have a follow-up question um yeah Miss Gates I'm concerned that you are alleging that we are not following our policy 3200 and you've alleged that in several different manners that we are did not use appropriate um methodology
045for following the rules if you um I know you've read the policy of 3200 and I wanted to bring to your attention and perhaps you can speak to it one of the requirements is to place principle above personal opinion and reason above Prejudice in the selection of the material of the highest quality in order to ensure a comprehensive collection appropriate for all users and it appears to me that looking in the both of the challenges that that was met um also in Item B number three it says materials brought in by teachers and it says before bringing in any material that has not been approved at the school or District level the teacher must determine that the material is appropriate using the quality review checklist and um this book was already approved it was in
046our library so the quality review checklist may or may not have to have been submitted for that individual class so is there um and so the question that comes with that is what what education do you have in selecting instructional materials analyzing sources and reviewing Lexile content and as it is applies to any level course in the school district I would say Miss crabill it's not about my credentials at all it's about me being a taxpayer funding these schools and demanding accountability to policy 3200 and holding people accountable we are we the people of New Hanover County and so it's our job to look through and find loopholes and when we see that we should Place reason above Prejudice I would say as I mentioned in the argument that the book is very prejudiced against
047white people against Christians and so I would say that um why was it in the library that was the second component of what you asked I would say well I thought that I made it clear and I'm sorry if I didn't that it this was supposed to go through a quality review checklist it did not and it somehow I got into the library and there is no record of how that acquisition happened or that it was scrutinized by any sort of committee mtac School Board superintendent so the only way it came in as I understand from searching the public records was because it was ordered for this staff Global read aloud initiative so the maturity level of an adult staff member versus a student okay fine do that with your staff that's not what I'm
048questioning I'm like how did it get from there that that now it's in the library and it's unapproved and we talked about in Pico how that is inappropriate there is no scrutiny and the school board's supposed to have scrutiny over that there's no record that I have found it may exist I just couldn't find it in the time that I had to look Stratford you have a follow-up question I do Miss Gates you've read this book stamped yes ma'am as I have in its entirety you've read these other books that are on the syllables is that correct I have not read them in their entirety I have skimmed them okay I have read them oh so on this Lexile score that you say is the gold standard which I had never heard of but it's
049fascinating and it's telling me that a 10 year old in fourth grade at the end of the year is going to read at the 940l in this book stamped is it the 1000 l so that's at the fifth grade level the all the materials that we have in the book reviews and the so and it all tells us that the book was written by a children's fictional writer Mr Reynolds for 12 and up and so it's your contention that the um to be in the 10th 11th and 12th grade it should be up around 1300 to 1385 in terms of the reading level so the the other books that your daughter read did she by any chance comment on the reading level of them as compared to this book and the speech and composition component
050of this book compared to the others she uh if I can think back for a second um when we spent the first couple days she was still in class with this book and she tried to read it and she says I don't this is ridiculous this is so substandard for AP I'm just gonna read it because I have to at this point but I'll do fine because I understand what they're trying to do and with 57 bus she said I don't see any rhetorical value in this whereas there may have been in other books uh the interesting thing is that the 57 bus in the stand are the two lowest Lexile scores 57 bus actually has a 980l Lexile score and interestingly enough that those are the two books that were left off kidwell's syllabus
051that she submitted to the College Board to get approval for her class so my question would be if she had put stamped in 57 and boss on her syllabus to submit to the College Board with the College Board then have gone huh that might be a little below AP standards to have your class reading fifth grade level books and so I would submit to you that some of the other books she said I don't have as much of a problem with but those two in particular were very distinct and I frankly had a very hard time reading stamped because the diction the incomplete sentences the grammar and the poor writing style that's meant to appeal to a fifth grade audience Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um first of all I want to say congratulations
052to your daughter she did really well in the AP exam I know my daughter's taking plenty and they're very tough and so I think that's a testament to miss Kidwell but I also and your daughter obviously also so I want to ask you this um so in an email to the board clerk dated May 9th you asked for an appeal to the school board of the district mtech committee decision which stated that the book met both ncdpi and AP guidelines for materials instruction on rhetoric you go on to State quote ironically we agree this book is a great example of effective rhetoric and our concern is about the book's content since rhetoric is one of the reasons this book was chosen and it's a great example why not support reading of the book yes so
053I've already um addressed that and I can just make another statement that the rhetoric is in there we can identify examples of rhetoric the question is was the rhetoric taught to the students or was it content because the mtac said it's the craft not the content yet kidwell's assessment of it the work the students had to do was content base and to my point before that rhetoric while it's identified there wasn't necessarily from what I understood from other students in the class who I spoke with and gotten an idea about their assignment because my daughter wasn't present she was exempt from that month she didn't go to class and was that they didn't have an understanding of the material in the dialectical journals that I saw they took quotes from the book which was part
054of the assignment and next to that quote they were supposed to identify the rhetorical device that was used to represent you know to basically identify and represent that quote and those kids didn't actually do that they didn't they struggled identifying the rhetorical device that they're quote represented and so my concern is that they didn't actually analyze the book for its rhetorical strength even though the book itself has three rhetorical strength it wasn't analyzed as such in class such that some of those kids were not able to complete their assignment well and identify the rhetorical devices you didn't include that it was confidence you didn't include that in your evidence though so we don't have an example of that no um I was uh asked not to share that okay want to protect us Miss Gates
055you made a claim um that I think is extremely interesting the syllabus that you included in the exhibit is what your child received in this class but you were saying a different syllabus was submitted to the AP course guideline because she has received the approval of being an AP course teacher so if the claim that you're saying is indeed accurate the change of that syllabus could jeopardize the status of the AP course itself and so can you verify the syllabus that was submitted to the AP course requirements and can we see that it's different than this um yes ma'am we can absolutely do that and I apologize for not being in your list of exhibits because the public records request took one month to get and I received it on Monday and so for that
056reason I was unable to include it as I submitted my documents last Thursday I do have a hard copy with me I am happy to send that to you digitally so that you can see there is it's a very extensive syllabus she presented it's about 10 pages and there is zero mention of stamped nor 57 bus anywhere on there and so there's a huge difference and you know perhaps that's a matter of you know AP teachers and you know the extent to which they have to justify their class to the College Board and obviously the students and parents don't need to see all that backlog story but to me that was the most egregious uh problem with or loophole that I have seen in this process that those two books are entirely unapproved by a
057QRC or by the college board and as part of the syllabus so please let me know how I can get you that information thank you Miss case I'm sorry there was a distraction can you repeat the beginning of your your comment s Whoever has their phone on please turn that off thank you very much you restate the beginning of your your comments I'm sorry I know that you don't have them written down but it was a distraction someone's phone went off yes okay sure the timing okay thank you uh so I apologize for not getting you what would have been another exhibit which is the syllabus that Miss Kidwell submitted to the College Board that was approved firstly by the principal and then to the College Board because I received that from a public records
058request this Monday this past Monday of this week I was required to turn in my materials and Exhibits last Thursday so that material had not arrived to me until Monday so I would be happy to provide that syllabus to you by I have a hard copy here or I'd be happy to share it digitally with you but the concern being is that not only did the principal sign off on it but the College Board and to your question Miss Barnhart uh submitting that syllabus to the College Board allows for a course to be approved to be publicized for her to have access to all of the AP as I understand it resources accounts and things of that nature and if it is not approved or there is a problem because information wasn't submitted that is
059beyond me and I'm hoping that perhaps you can take up that breadcrumb trail thank you Mr chairman the request for information I have something in my packet that looks like that might be what it is can we confirm or deny that that is what we have Miss Bowie do we have the document she's talking about in our packets you would need to review that with Mr Vogel as he's the one that prepared the documents for distribution right now whether you have or don't have the document that Exodus 28 is the document she's talking about you have it it's exhibit 28. it's in here yes okay um would you like me to uh we don't take more evidence right that's it okay we're good we already have it um we're going for a third round Miss
060Mason any questions no uh Mr McManus oh I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm going miss Bradford yes I do have a question um Miss Gates you talked a lot about content and after you I didn't I didn't skip you had a question several times ago it's Miss Walker there was barnhart's question now we go back to begin again miss Mason said she didn't have a question Mr McManus do you have a question another question sir go ahead please um let's admit I will that we all have biased opinions no matter who we are no matter if we say we don't we do and things are very personal to us and sometimes but I think the elephant in the room the elephant in the room his first amendment rights and I would fight for your right to
061complain to fill out a petition to even have this hearing which I think maybe goes beyond given additional rights but also have I served as a high school principal for decades so I feel like I have valuable experience if I if if petitions had been issued for every book that every teacher in my life haven't served at hotter with close to 2 600 students topflow high school I went into 390 and I think now there's 1600 and something Maybe 17. and then in private school at Cape Fear Academy if I had censored books or a petition I felt I was offending the First Amendment rights of students to be able to read what they want to read of course most parents would be involved in that so my issue with this hearing is not about
062a book or a title of book so much as it is the fact of banning other people's First Amendment rights when we have someone who doesn't like and so we all agree that we have bias but we must defend everyone else's rights First Amendment to read what they want and that is an issue how do you accept that realizing that this will lead to more book Banning yes um you know that's a very good question and Mr McManus as I said in my introduction I am requesting this book be removed from classrooms in New Hanover County Schools based on those six reasons not from the libraries I think it's very important to distinguish that children should have the option to be exposed to all of these resources on their own accord with whatever parental discretion
063when you assign a book like this this book happens to be the most challenged book one of the most challenged books in the country right now so if we actually took some time and and looked at a whole bunch of these other cases one might consider why would we submit as New Hanover County Schools why would you yourself submit yourselves to having this book this contentious book and the school systems when there is so much classic literature when there's so many books that have been used over the past 50 years for AP classes that are valuable that have been used all over the nation successfully why are we introducing such a hot button topic and disregarding classic literature disregarding things like like Milton Paradise Lost you know like catcher in the right why are we
064not using that when there's so many other options out there why is it so important to have this book I think that's the key question if if we're fighting so hard to have this one book why are we fighting so hard is it the content that they want in there because there's so many other books that have great rhetoric so why are we fighting so hard what is is it about this book that is so necessary for the students of New Hanover County May I asked may I respond to that no no we have one question we'll keep going around I think so I do want to remind board members that this is not the time to debate we'll debate later on this is time to ask questions so I understand Mr chair sir um
065the introduction and the evidence that was produced has opened every portal for our right to ask questions oh I'm I'm saying we can ask questions but we don't need to go through a whole bunch of rhetoric she asked a question to us if it goes unanswered then well you'll have a chance again to ask question again as per the rules we have set out at this point uh my next question is um have you ever done anything like this Miss Gates before is this a normal pattern for you yeah question no it's not my normal pattern I would say I am just doing the next right thing as a parent in faith trying to pursue the proper channels to challenge a book based on not only our family's opinion but the opinions of many others
066in our community and frankly our state and Country and so I think it's important that as as we the people as you know those tasks with uh with technical governance of this country that we must now start standing up and pursuing accountability in ways that maybe we're not comfortable in because I certainly don't want to be here and I'm not a confrontational person but I'm happy to be here because this is the right thing to do thank you Miss Gates Ms craigville yeah I um kind of following up on a little bit of that and Mr mcmanus's questions but can't decide which one to go first with I'll start with this one um you you said to us that you had seen other students work and I am wondering how you got a hold of
067that work and because I have also um seeing a request that you asked for students work and I'm just wondering why you needed to see what the other kids were doing when your daughter had her own assignment using the same dialectic forms and so that to me would be a breach of anybody who shared that's a breach of student records and I'm just wondering why you needed those and how you got them you know I didn't actually need those nor did I ask them for them but in conversations with parents who had children in this class they said well we had the same problems but we are so afraid that the teacher will basically lash out by taking her down a grade or two in their assessment on my child and that my child will
068be ostracized so they wouldn't do what I've done we're talking I've gotta I just have a handful and it's hearsay so if you're not going to accept it that's fine but no one else will do this because their kids are like no Mom my social life will be over for the next two years so um I they said but can I show you can I show you and I said yes I would like to see that because my daughter wasn't in it and I think it's part of my due diligence as a parent to to ask around and get a sense for what is going on and how people are feeling including the students so that I can best represent my case so it's not a Katie Gates thing it's not my opinion what I
069believe and that I think this should be banned it's actually a reflection of a lot of people but mind you the reason people don't do this very often is because there is a price to pay and we have paid it as a family my daughter has paid it so I'm just saying I'm glad to do it I'm glad we're here this has not been easy and so people don't do this because of what happens eight referred um thank you Miss Gates you had talked about analyticals of speech and composition which is the purpose of this course and you had mentioned that it wasn't to teach history and you had mentioned that the author says it's not a history book and you'd used air quotes are you aware of the August 7th Port City Daily question
070and answer verbatim questions with the author Mr kindy and that he said and I quote and let me just say stamped is one of the best-selling non-fiction history books of our time are you aware of that and how did it how did your daughter reconcile that with the book saying it's not a history book but then later it says it is and it says it's not and then it says you talk about confusion and what confusion did you see in your family with your daughter over that so I can say that the root of my whole argument is confusion because of emotion because of opinion and fact being intertwined because of poor citations in this book I was told and the redefinition of terms and I was told by various history teachers what general style
071of citation is used by by history by authors who write history and they say it's Chicago style so if I could just take a moment Chicago's style citations that sort sort um that quote primary sources have two forms when history is cited when primary sources are any sources cited there's there's two options one there must be footnotes on the bottom and that the quote or the citation must be identified within the text with a subscript and the source written on the bottom of the page number one Chicago style or number two there's parenthetical um attribution to the author and the Europe publication following the statement that was extracted from the source Kennedy and Reynolds have none of that they're not complying with any normal like MLA or Chicago style in the back of their book
072their sources cited are on page one on page 12 and then a couple of sources and if you have looked through these source and accuracies you can see that there have been misquotes there have been Twisted quotes omissions manipulation of facts and so I'm very concerned about that so being a science person when we talked back to your question sorry about the long-winded intro and when we talked about how we know whether to trust this material or not given it's confusing to know whether it's a history or a not history book is to look at the sources and how it's cited because anybody who is writing a history book should have their facts cited properly and should be proud of that what I see is that there is deceit operating here because you cannot identify
073the majority of his statements by the statement itself X excluded from opinion and the retwisting of Truth the reframing there's a lot of reframing and if you've looked at exhibit D in great gory detail multiple sources about how Source data was twisted it is a big concern for me and the mtac committee had my first submission was like it was a page number error well it didn't sit right with me so we pers we spent hours and hours questioning what actually they should do in AP language and comp they they're supposed to learn whether a source is trustworthy and to be able to identify why it is or isn't and so I had to teach that to my daughter because she didn't know so that's how we pointed it out and it was very confusing
074um and so as as a family certainly we're tasked with raising our daughter according to our values history is very important to me and um so I was trying as always to to say this is an opinion this is an argument this is not necessarily facts so please separate that in your mind uh next we'll have Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um well I'm gonna piggyback off this I mean it's clear you don't like the content we've established that you've called it a tool for indoctrination to a precept an ideology that is on American Marxist in its root politicized and accurate and controversial so my question is if you had allowed your daughter the opportunity to read and write a paper for stamped do you feel like she could have written an effective rhetorical
075rebuttal to the book and that maybe you could have helped her with that um I I believe she could absolutely all right the best part thank you Miss Gates I think my last question for you is I I saw the emails and that Miss Walker is referencing and it seems that the submission to the school in the district and now us which ultimately we're we're the last straw of the lines as far as no matter what happens that we have a potential to be put in court for um we cannot look at the rhetoric and whether our opinion matches with whether or not we like this book we have three legal grounds and I feel like the submission to us includes more information because I feel like now you grasp and understand that as far
076as legal grounds there are only three we are allowed to consider and so is that the difference why we see the development of what you submitted to US versus what you submitted to this school in the mtac district level committee uh yes and I would say uh it's very interesting of the all of the emails that I have sent out um to the principal to the board and whatnot the one that's cited most in the media is my first response and my first response was the day that I read that book and it was an emotional response and perhaps I should have edited it because now it's all over the nation but you know what um it actually just proves what the the quality review checklist says is this material offensive to any subgroup so
077it was offensive it was emotionally charged and I responded out of that and so that was my initial request to be like I need my daughter out of this of this book assignment then I learned how to do that and then I took a more objective stance okay so what is allowed what isn't allowed what is the policy to be able to track effectively and to actually present uh more directly and objectively so yes it was an emotional response and I tell you nobody knows how to do this and I don't know how many hearings you've had like this based on a book challenge I would say I haven't ever heard of it so I'm learning every step of the way so every time I went to another level I was asked different questions and
078so I had to clarify to a new and different level and so I as I went yes my my argument was more developed and also more focused to the point where I've spent you know the last you know three weeks really looking at this because I do not want to bring anything Superfluous before you because I realized the legal implications from different challenges that have happened to remove it from the libraries to remove it from other places that um you know could put you all in a position that's uncomfortable and I don't want that so I do hope that the way I've presented this is objective proof we're not asking you to remove it from the library so we are asking you to remove it from the classroom because six reasons it's unsuitable and one
079of those was because it's age level inappropriate so we're looking at two of the three reasons that Mr Vogel had presented are the grounds on which through the Pico case you have the ability to restrict this book in New Hanover County schools and so I did clarify and I'll point this out now because I'm sure it'll come up that my public statement I said when I turn it in on Thursday was to restrict the availability of this book and so in presenting this today you notice that I changed my mind and I said I want it out of all classrooms but not in the libraries so I presented the specific manner on which I wanted it restricted so that was a change that maybe you were wondering about and so I had to be as
080specific as possible today so a more specific version of what I said on Thursday thank you Miss Gates uh just a couple quick reminders uh we've had the second phone uh phone go off so please silence your phones I shouldn't have said that but please silence your phones uh because we it is distracting and just to let everyone know I'm going to continue to call the roll in case someone has a even if you didn't have a question before uh if you may have a follow-up question you would like to ask so we'll start with Miss Mason do you have a follow-up question no Mr McManus do you have a follow-up question sir I'm limited to one follow-up question one no at one each time okay each round each round I'm going to ask questions
081I really hadn't thought about until until I listened to you um may I ask will your child some of her top two or three universities colleges that she would like to attend and with their AP scores obviously she has a great chance of getting in about probably any of them but has she stated where she might like to go to school um you know I don't think I'm going to share that personal information but I will say that um this I I want to give kudos to my daughter because despite this whole situation she remains number one or two in the class the senior class at Ashley high school and so I'm so excited that she has you know she is educationally sound and she is a smart girl and this didn't set her back
082a whole heck of a lot she could have gotten a lot more I actually think that she could have gotten a five had there been more preparation but she was well as you should be and and I applaud that all right thank you Mr McManus I have to ask my question I was lucky enough Mr McManus I did ask you a question you asked where she was going to school that's your question you feel better Mr Baltimore not yet not yet um going back to um change of heart um that you mentioned the first of all in the request for consideration of resources the complaint represents herself not other parents so I need to just make that clear there but in your emails that you have sent back and forth one other thing and there's
083three things in there that I want to ask you about one you say in what kind of AP class do they do reading for the whole class when the teacher does a read aloud when if you look at you know teaching best practices um it is important and I pulled it up on my phone there is um there is evidence that shows that reading two students at all different levels is important so I'm wondering if you are more mad about that than you are about the content it says the benefits of secondary classrooms are just as great according to the research benefits include increased literacy fluency and comprehension as well as an increased accessibility to the material for all students regardless of their reading level so um I'm wondering you know why that didn't make
084it into your form in that same email you talk about your religious beliefs I won't have my daughter being subjected to that mockery of God's word please do not bring political controversial texts into the classroom it is distracting unethical and confusing for students who need to be focused on critical thinking grammar history math and classical literature this is an example of CRT and you talk about Genesis in the Bible and you know that this should be added into now I know that you are a a proponent of biblical citizenship for modern America and you teach a class on that so if your real reason is religion and why was it not included in any of your um requests for reconsideration of resources well miss crabill you said I had a change of heart my heart
085has never changed and when you're given from Mr Vogel the lawyer the reasons and the grounds on which you were supposed to develop your argument with objective proof that I'm presenting objective proof I did that so yeah I am a Christian and yes I teach biblical citizenship but that and that's a driving Factor where I don't want our country's history misrepresented that's who I am but we're not analyzing who I am as a person or my personal values we're analyzing my argument today and so what I hear you may be saying is it seems that you've had a change of heart which I which I haven't I've just further developed my argument as I've gone as I explained before and so um did I answer your question in a moment no no no I'm just
086wondering why it's not on these forms that if if religion was a huge proponent and again that's not one of the things so now you've dropped that off and you're representing others not just yourself so I'm just curious as to why your forms didn't reflect that okay so I'm representing myself because I'm one parent going through this process having talked to other parents yes because I was justifying my reason do I have a reason to do this is it just me or are there other people so I'm not going to pursue something just because I am worked up and emotional about it I did my due diligence and um in terms of um the religious references I I am one of my comments that I have made in the school board meetings was on page
08713 of the book where Kendy and Reynolds present and George Bess Whimsical theory of curse Theory which basically is what he presented he presented climate Theory and curse Theory as the reasons for slavery in America and climate theory if you look at your exhibit D was debunked what kendian Reynolds said it wasn't even Aristotle who said that it was Hippocrates and his and Aristotle never made mention of race as being a factor in that and then this curse Theory which is the anchor of you know the founding fathers reason why slavery was justified in this nation was based on a Biblical citation from Genesis 6 that was completely spun inaccurately where it's said you know God I have told and I'm just going to say what the book said so forgive me for the language
088the book stamps says and God told Noah and his sons not to have sex with their wives on the ark but uh because ham did he went ham which it says in the book and they got off the boat and God curse hands descendants to be black and disgusting for the rest of history as a penalty so personally you know I have grounds to refute that that's completely not what the Bible says so yeah I brought that up but I didn't bring it up today because I don't want it to be perceived as a factor that influences my objective Truth where I stand I'm telling you right now yeah that is offensive which by the QRC checklist should be a factor but it's inaccurate representation and it's being presented in a non-fiction book as the
089reason the anchor to justify American slavery two theories that are completely divant and this is presented as non-fiction this is presented as history or not history but again back to the confusion so I'm confused I can't imagine the kids being confused thank you Ms Bradford Ms Gates did you read any cited as evidenced by the mtac committee as why this book was um Captain your your um you were denied um and if so um did you notice any references in those book reviews because we have a bunch of them in our binder um that were that were given to us to look at and did you notice in there any references to the quality or syntax of the speech or the composition of the book or did you notice that it was all about history
090and race and all of the other topics that the book wasn't kept for according to the syllabus it was supposed to be speech and composition not a history class did you notice that when you look at those book reviews um yes I did and I read those a while back so I don't have any specific um review off the top of my head but um but yes what I feel like is the default for most reviewers is why are we questioning the expert why are we questioning teachers why are we questioning the mtac why are we questioning ibrahamex candy everybody's an expert in their field so this assumption that his sources are correct he is one of the foremost black African a black African-American historians in the nation by who by whose standards I mean
091there's Where's Thomas soul I mean like where you know where is where's the variety of people so it seems like he's revered and he has a reputation and therefore any objectivity and in our analysis of his works or the book reviews uh is superficial at best I would say and um I I do believe that um the the content bias towards race and racism towards civil rights history is is definitely his bias and so if he's a historian I would I would want to say you know what and I think I just need to make this clear I've wanted to say this for a while is that I absolutely believe that a lot of ibromex Kennedy's work um is is good he has studied he is accredited he is he's well studied and so why
092don't we look maybe in New Hanover County Schools First start at textbooks or resources that give a really balanced good account of American history that given account of the egregious offenses of American history but also how far we've come as a nation and even the the founders of our nation where they were as young people but when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and they realized that their inalienable rights come from God and everybody is created equal with equal opportunity that the majority of the the founders then shifted their opinion and they were they became the majority of them became abolitionists right and and we are a nation that's a work in progress we are working towards a more perfect union and therefore you know like if somebody looked at me and judged me based
093on what I did in college versus who I am now that would be a huge different picture so why are we picking out and cherry picking little bits of History ibrahamex candy does that well and presenting that as the history and not looking at the context and not looking at the progression and not looking at the we are the freest most prosperous nation in the world for years and years so let's let's look at that let's let's include all the egregious offenses let's teach the bad history we are an imperfect Nation we are an imperfect nation and so I just asked for the variety of viewpoints and that maybe perhaps we can look at different authors different historians and weigh the truth because the truth is hard to come by nowadays thank you Miss case
094Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um so I know we talked a little bit about you know how you've been feeling about this whole ordeal um it's clear that by your statement that you want this removed from the classroom across New Hanover County which is taking it out of the hands of all the other parents and students that may want it in there as well um and so I I guess my question is I I read one of your emails December 13th were you stated to the teacher this is the day before the teacher had had a chance to get back to you you stated to the AP teacher that noticed that I have CC the school board and the Robinson facts commission and that Ms kidwai requests you pursue another topic or a book
095in the meantime till this concern can be addressed I guess my question is why did you feel it necessary to include this in your opening email I didn't know if it was you were threatening it was threatening or not and what topic are you referring to can I stop for one second we do need everyone's seated please so if you would please find a seat thank you this case go ahead I'm sorry sure um so I mentioned in in my argument the um the ideology that Ebro mexicania and Reynolds are are promoting here and it's that of you're categorized and you're divided there's an oppressor and an oppress that is a Marxist ideology okay so I am calling that out and when Kendy says that the foundation of my work which basically he's defined anti-racism
096I mean he is behind that is rooted in critical race Theory and intersectional theory and so just to to bring up one of my first major concerns is that I had heard coming to school board meetings since 2021 that we don't teach critical race theory in our schools and I have a whqr article and through the YouTube videos Miss Adams the former chair had said we again because she's been asked a lot right again we do not teach critical race theory in New Hanover County Schools we follow the North Carolina Social Studies standards and Miss Kidwell assured me in an email in December CRT is a concept I just heard about a few years ago it's mostly a framework for analyzing laws in government be assured I have not learned enough about CRT to be
097teaching it to AP students yet she chose a book from an author who is self-professed you know anti-racist and his work is grounded in CRT and the last um August school board meeting there was a person who got up and had apps chat GPT the AI you know and they know everything is that is this book considered critical race Theory and the AI said yes so my emotional response initially is absolutely that we have said we have heard that critical race theory is not being taught people Max candy his his foundation of his work is rooted in that and this ideology is a Marxist ideology and I see a creep of Marxism and CRT infiltrating our Educational Systems and so that is a concern of the lieutenant governor Mark Robinson the purpose of his facts
098commission is to identify ideologies and rhetoric that is dangerous to our students and so absolutely I submitted this because I finally had come across something in my own personal walk in our family that represented that school board and Mr Robinson would be the best people to CC because you felt that they would be more likely to hear your complaint that's my question well yeah um so we've been invited by the lieutenant governor and the facts commission any parent anybody is welcome to submit any concern they have to the facts commission and it's a form you fill out online and I think parents should actually wake up more to what's being presented in their schools and start reporting they actually have thousands and thousands of submissions and um they have statements that they've made on how
099this pervasive ideology has penetrated North Carolina schools so I'm calling it out as a dangerous ideology yes and again board members please remember we asked one question she said she wasn't answering the question sorry do you answered the question I'd asked all right carrying on uh Ms Barnhart Miss Gates you have pointed out a few things that are concerning with procedural things on our side and we're going to have an opportunity to discuss this with the district Representatives one of the evidence that you submitted was discussing the inaccuracies North Carolina has changed to allow standards to open up the door to more diverse perspectives and I think all of us can value that the question and the criticism has come with should we allow diversity and not to worry about the factual component and what
100you have brought to the attention for us to consider is actually questioning the author and the context of him misrepresenting references so to me this brings up a bigger issue and I want to get clarity this as far as bringing this into evidence is challenging the author not for the content but for the misrepresentation of how he is referencing how he compiled his best-selling book because his job is to make money but that is I want to gain Clarity that this is what you're trying to present as far as these evidence I don't know what pages okay yes D okay but you're challenging the author himself I am and stamped the version that we were we were assigned is called the remix it's based on his original book um which was a more adult version
101and my concern is also that this book has been Rewritten for multiple age groups including a graphic novel recently and in the New Hanover County schools there are 75 copies of candy books and so when considering what to ask for if in fact this historian this accredited apparently historian is writing books that are being utilized across our school board and there are this many factual inaccuracies and citations that really aren't appropriate it should bring into question the author so I would agree with you there and that is the basis by which you know I think this argument is developed is number one the course is supposed to be about the craft and not the content but there was so much focus on the content which if it is supposed to be a history book and
102it's categorized as non-fiction and we have debunked multiple sources if I had more time and got a bunch of people together I would love to go after more so let's just do due diligence and in the meantime until it can be you know proved and weighed let's not assign it in the classroom keep it in the libraries thank you Miss Gates uh going to the next round Miss Mason uh Mr McManus Miss case if I offended you by asking that question I totally apologize as a possible principal High has to add 400 million times to every single student in office say this is what you need to do you need to take it's what you need to explore by rationale for answering a question you don't have to answer of course what prepares you or
103any other parent when they go to college and this is a college level class but to an actual college campus and a professor in their discussion or their assignments reading otherwise group work says something that you do not approve of are you going to the chancellor are you going to send it to Mark Robinson and I'm not trying to be smart I'm being it's an honest question because the university system I doubt is going to give you a hearing agree and as a parent I don't get to micromanage but here are in New Hanover County and as far as I understand we're operating under a policy 3200 board level discretion it is a college level class we acknowledge that I agree and I read all of the AP qualifications about this class and having controversial
104issues and a variety of viewpoints expressed I understand that and so maybe y'all can help me understand then why it is that this AP class is is completely not under what I'm seeing under your jurisdiction yet it's in the New Hanover County school so at some point I would like that to be addressed as to why it's not addressed in policy 3200 um or you know honestly if we're gonna be you know forthright um I would really like on an AP syllabus um for every teacher in any AP class to say there there is no local accountability this syllabus and these books are entirely unapproved by any of our advisory committees and I think that might be fair to the parents and then at that point they can make a choice whether that's a class
105they'd like their child to to pursue so my problem is that I didn't realize that and it took a month and a half of public records requests to actually figure it out because it wasn't made clear and so um if that was made clear if I had you know all the evidence and all the information I could weigh a decision better but I do believe as a parent that we under and as Pico says we are here under um under your supervision ultimately to make decisions and so I am I am counting on that again college is is out of our reach but this is an AP class being taught by teachers who are also teaching other classes so um I will look forward to learning more about how that accountability Works how we can
106close loopholes thank you I have no further questions so we're going to miss crabill I'm going back to a comment that you made earlier about brainwashing and I am wondering what evidence that you have that indicates that um that we have made someone adopt radically different beliefs by using a system and often forcible pressure so that's pretty strong words given that the whole concept of the class is to take that strong content and let our young adult students figure that out for themselves in their own way and um are you familiar with the suggested course guides that AP teachers or teachers in general use to teach this book the so I'm familiar with the the AP college board guidelines the 100 page document I'm familiar and have looked at um through Amazon and some of
107the review committees there are sources out there that are published on how to teach the book and there's like a 30-day you know guideline to I think it's bike and one is by Cleo and the other one I got off of Amazon I don't recall I think it's in the exhibits so I am familiar with that yes okay the um because that was your question no that wasn't my question so it was your question it's ma'am next oh good lord Pete this person gets one question okay fair Miss Gates at some point you were planning your daughter's curriculum for this year and you said let's take this AP English Language and Composition of course what was your objective in doing that what did you expect your daughter to learn and how did you expect her
108to be at the end of it what was your expectation of this course because you had to talk about that let's pick this one let's pick this one because you can't have everything you want so what was your expectation no number one um my expectation um was and again I don't know this an expectation because my daughter at this age is very capable of thinking on her own so we discuss things together and she justifies why she wants to take things and so she wanted to take that number one because it fits in her schedule and number two she wants to be challenged by only AP classes and go to Cape Fear as a dual enrolled student and uh so she wanted to pursue this because she wants to be best prepared for college and
109she wants to get rid of her prerequisites so that she can really focus on her future and what she's interested in and to her the effectiveness of being able to do that New Hanover County schools which is a huge gift to be able to take AP and to be dual enrolled is amazing so thank you for that and that that by the end of this class I I would expect that her writing would have improved drastically that she would be able to analyze sources well and adopt what she's learned and apply it in her own life that's the goal of most classes and I I would say that we haven't talked specifically about the outcome of this class the one thing that we did share was that there wasn't a lot of focus on writing
110development and she wished she would have had opportunity to learn that more because all we did is study other people's and do some of the timed preparations so that was our comment about the end of the class so she did want a little bit more out of the class Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um first I think it's wonderful that your daughter's doing so well I mean I like I said my daughter she had a great opportunity for an education in New Hanover County schools and she's gone really far and I really I hope that for your daughter but I want to ask you um a question um you had brought up bias and I will just say as as an American white American obviously I read this book and it did cause me
111to think a lot about what I was taught in history and um and it caused me to reflect about what I was not taught as a as a citizen of this community about any of the historical issues that happen here and so I guess my question for you is was it relates to bias I mean do you not feel that in other perspective specifically African-American perspective um that they that they themselves have a right to write about their point of view and and do you think maybe it reflects on your own bias that you feel like you don't agree with a lot of the things in the book yes um I'd be happy to answer that so um when you were reflecting about the book I I can see where where the concepts I think
112this is a a book you can it's a springboard you know for discussions in a different place outside of an AP Lang in comp class um reflecting on it did you reflect on the accuracy so we're reflecting on all these Concepts we're reflecting on this history the non-fiction book presented at his as history and is the accuracy part of that are we making decisions based on someone's opinion that is perceived as fact that is that is where I have the problem and in terms of my personal bias um I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear earlier and I want my kid to be exposed to all facets of History I think the best solution that we could have is to actually work with our history and our English classrooms that are generally work together
113in all the other states I've lived in to study history and work it with the writing and to learn the facts and to uh and to synthesize the good with the bad and to reflect on that because that would develop critical thinking that would develop a mature mindset when you have the opportunity to weigh I think it's been horrible the way we've been taught Civics and um and history in the United States in the last 50 years I don't think I was prepared at all to truly understand our history there's a lot of whitewashing going on and the black voice needs to be heard there is there are atrocities and um absolute there's been bigotry but you know the one thing I would say is America is not systemically racist I would say people in
114America are people in America are systemically racist right in their within their mindset and their paradigms there's a lot of people who have uh have have done very poorly aren't a reflection of our founding um uh you know forefathers principles and we need to know that so what value can be in and what not brings is they're starting to expose of that but they're doing it in such a way where it's an emotional trigger to an opinion so how about we tie in hey let's make an awareness we need to get this in our schools but let's look at the facts and then develop the opinions off of the facts that that is really it's a revisionist history as I understand I was trying to clarify for myself history is facts it's like what happened
115on any given day that's been recorded and a revisionist history is you're allowed to have an opinion on History which is acceptable and and you know in discussion so there is revisionist history but when revisionist history substitutes facts with opinions and redefinitions and reformulations therein lies a problem so if we can just get together I think that everything that we're divided over can be resolved by sharing more of what is truth instead of the emotional drama that's triggered by and I I call it propaganda because there's a difference as I read between propaganda and education to sensationalize something attaches emotion to it and people get distracted and sidestepped on that so on both sides yeah and so yeah let's get back to facts thank you Miss Barnhart I have no questions at this time okay
116Miss Mason Mr McManus uh yes sir thank you I have one last question um intended or not this discussion whether we whether you or we agree with the book the content it is a book a lot of people disagree with a lot of books I go back actually some people don't like Harry Potter and they say it's Witchcraft and mystical I just took my kids to New York to see Harry Potter um do you we realize not just you miss Gates that to ban this book is a slap at the awareness opportunity for someone to write their first amendment rights about what they believe was black history it's a slap at the black community and it begins it begins the the gosh how many more are we going to have to condemn or ban and
117that's your opinion and as I said earlier I'll fight for you to express it I appreciate it but I want to make sure that we all understand this this is not our history well I take that back hold on I said that it is part of our history we're all involved in it but it is especially important for our black community not only here but everywhere and I think that's going to create a lot of issues that we don't need and that they don't Reserve that's it thank you for questioning that that was that was sure was that a statement I apologize yeah we'll have plenty of time for a debate later on Mr McMahon thank you Miss Craven thank you sorry your question yeah I'm gonna make a question out of what Mr McMahon
118said the so in one of your other emails you write this book is an affront to our family's faith and values and makes a mockery of the Bible and U.S history in your request for recommendation at the building level you state that the NC State history standards have been ranked by Fordham Institute in 2021 as an F in history and a d-minus in civics so question is twofold Mr Golden the I'm going to get it all out at one time go for it it's going to have a semicolon so did you realize that this class that your daughter was taking was AP language and not AP History which is a difference because we are not teaching and the teacher has shown in her syllabus has shown in her study guides has shown in the coursework
119that she is not teaching the content of that book she is asking our young adults to read and formulate so you when you were asked earlier about do you think your daughter would have would have been able to refute this and um and I would further that do you think that are you giving enough credit to the rest of the students in the class that they are um 16 17 18 years old and are ready to go into the world are you not giving them enough credit to think on their own when we're trying to teach critical thinking and yet we're not allowing them to think critically about a whole topic so how do you how do you feel on that bless you sure so um thinking critically about a whole topic would require that
120multiple viewpoints are expressed so I think that that's the problem I'll fall back on and that um in terms of the statements that you read that the Fordham Institute ranked our history classes in our Civics classes in F and a D minus in 2021. that uh is a big concern in that because if our students in New Hanover County Schools it's not New Hanover County really it's new it's North Carolina it was a state-based assessment if they are not learning history well and they are reading a book like this in English class then it is highly likely that they are going to receive this as history why would they do that because it's ranked as a non-fiction book so it's presented as history and it's and it's presented as fact and then there's the confusion
121part I'll go back to that it's a history not history book it's a present book we're just supposed to be teaching it on the craft not the content so it's the same it's it's just the circular reasoning here and how are students going to be able to decipher fact from fiction they're learning and opinion as if it's fact and did I realize uh you know that when our daughter took this class that the teacher wouldn't be teaching content um well because of the explanation that was read about an AP class teaching the rhetoric and it's based on the craft not the content why then so many questions on the content why is there so much F emphasis on the primary sources why is there so much emphasis on what it said and conveyed and not
122to the ways in which it was written not to the rhetorical prowess I would say where is that analysis so I would say that it was um I don't know that it was absent I was not in class um but you know when we talk about banning a book I'm not Banning it it's in libraries I request that it be removed from our classrooms until if it's a history book if it's non-fiction the sources can be verified do I believe that black people the black people need to have history represented in a way where it proves that they were maligned in so many ways absolutely yes there is a lot of healing and Reconciliation that needs to happen I want to learn more about that myself and I've been walking down that path trying to
123embrace that and I am all for that but we've got to come together and learn both sides of the history and where they you know there's an intersection not a division and so I'm getting off of I think what you are asking so I'll stop there thank you Miss Bradford well actually miss Gates just answered my question which was can you correctly that we've heard a lot of information this morning heard a lot of things you are not asking to remove this book from any school libraries is that correct yes ma'am that is correct okay thank you Ms Walker thank you Mr chair um I still think removal is Banning but whatever um I just want to ask you we've established that you're not a credential or professional historian especially on African-American history so why
124do you feel like your sources and your research are more credible than the authors thank you so from a science background we are taught to never malign and misinterpret primary sources and so I have a bent and so when I read stuff in a book that something a light bulb goes off in my mind and I question it I'm going to trace it to the source I'm like is it accurate or is it not so when we did that throughout the book we found so many errors where it's misrepresentation for example there's another you'll see it in your exhibit D where uh Kennedy and Reynolds are talking about the Salem witch trials and the Puritan people and um how they said that you know there was a black bearded man and then there was a
125a black um uh Shadow and the authors construed that as he was talking about black people when in the source it was talking about the color black as a white man with a black beard and in the the days of the Puritans and the Salem Witch Trials light and dark were Concepts Right light and dark good and evil and so when they're talking about dark they're referring to the spiritual reference of evil versus light is good and so when the author misconstrues and paints that as they were talking about black people and as if the witch trials were all about the black people there's only three black people out of a hundred that were uh on trial and it's it's completely misconstrued and so an example like that makes me wonder and so absolutely I'm
126not a historian but I'm learning and I'm just presenting what I have learned and when you go back and you look if you go through this and we track all the sources that candy gave and we find sources where number one what he said wasn't even included in the source information or it was twisted like for example um let's uh go back to the the Ghana you know Empire so um towards the end here uh all right so we presented um and that history in African history wasn't one of inferiority instead it was one full of Glorious Empires like Ghana Mali Sangeet full of intellects and innovators and they were glorious Empires so there's truth in that but where where we're seeing the untruth is that um is that these particular Empires their economy was
127solely dependent on slave labor of black people enslaving black people it's an economic principle that was commonly accepted at the time okay so I'm just saying he presented it as if it's glorious that's like a an Omission so there's all sorts of Twisted untruths and and misperceptions um contradictions throughout his sources and it it leads the the reader down a pathway to make an assumption that isn't true about the primary source it's not yeah right exactly so it's not my source these are the sources that were listed in this in the sources cited in the back of the book and we actually went so far as in some of them we couldn't find where the source material made their claim even looking at different page numbers and so then we went and we looked up
128the topic and where that might have been construed from and presented sources to you where the original fact was found and then how it was twisted and wasn't even presented in the source he cited and so I just feel like a lot of attention ought to be paid to these inaccurate Source exhibits in exhibit D because that is an example of how I don't trust this book as a non-fiction book and so because it's not it's being presented as non-fiction at any grade level for any class I think that that in and of itself is is a poor label I think if you want to present this as as a fiction or as an opinion book then that would be much better suited but when it's listed as non-fiction then convey the facts hmm and
129taught as history exactly but your daughter didn't have to read it thank you um Miss Barnhart for the questions nope Miss Mason Mr mcmes do you have any questions no I have none Ms crabill yes um so miss Gates you have said a number of times that you want this taken out of the class and you want an alternate Viewpoint presented um would you would you change your Viewpoint of having it in the classroom if an alternate Source an alternate book not an alternate an additional book was given so that students could read them both and if not why I think that that would be an absolutely valid solution um I think because of the Viewpoint discrimination in the five out of six sources she chose that is a problem and if we could present
130to sources like a Thomas Soul book and then a candy book I think that would be the most fantastic presentation of information and um and how it's taught obviously there's going to be bias based on who's teaching it and but I think that that is valuable to develop critical thinking skills I think that that's what the community at large once we heard everybody on the last board meeting say they want their kids exposed to this material well we want all material to be exposed yes yes if we can consider that and and so unfortunately that makes a lot of work for the supervisory committees and the mtacs like to ensure that that's happening and so I recognize that's a lot of work and I think it's going to be a work in progress but I
131am all four Solutions thank you thank you Ms Bradford Ms crabill just keeps teeing up my questions I was going to quit but so to follow up on her question um are you saying that to add new material to this syllabus of course if it was approved and so on um would bring back what you describe as missing in Balance because I I I I wasn't going to say this here but you know I have 25 years in publishing editing and writing and um I've written over a thousand opinion pieces I have edited over 80 000 pieces of work I have taught countless interns that have gone on to huge success in National Publications and balance is what you teach in presenting opinion when I teach it I have a degree in Communications I have
132a degree in teaching Communications I was taught speech and language in in entire courses in college and when I present an argument I present this side and I present this side and I let the reader make up their mind that's called balance are you saying this would bring balance back into this classroom that you have said was missing I do believe it would bring back balance and to find a source that would present the alternative Viewpoint would be great that does still leave us with the inaccuracies that are in my opinion egregious and so um it's incumbent upon the teacher to convey that and to really lead the the children the students they're not children if they're an AP class they're young adults and down the pathway because part of the AP directive for this
133class in the 121-page document is to teach the students to analyze their sources I didn't see any evidence of that at least not from what my daughter shared I didn't see any evidence of that in the assignments that I accessed and so that Still Remains a concern I don't think that changes uh but but a balanced Viewpoint um is certainly something that we could work towards as a solution Ms Walker other questions thank you Mr chair um gosh where am I here so I I I was curious um if you want to share which uh alternate book that your daughter chose to read from this list of mediation by Marcus Aurelius educated by Westover Democracy in America by De tocqueville Long Walk to Freedom by Mandela and hillbilly elegy by Vance uh hillbilly elegy right
134so you so this is assuming we have two sides here when we say we got to have alternate views I mean some might argue that we don't have enough of this side so I would just say there's no I would argue that there's sides here but you were given an alternate that you know made me fit what you felt was maybe a different side of something hillbilly ology yeah do you know what um those those books need to be presented side by side you know yeah so um we had an alternative assignment so all the rest of the class didn't get that alternative assignment therefore they're not getting an alternative Viewpoint so we're not helping the classroom situation to develop critical thinking if the only way to get the alternative Viewpoint is in the alternative
135assignment thank you Miss case Miss Barnhart nope back to the topic game is Mason Mr McManus self Ms crabill yeah I have one last question so um the coincidentally while I was listening to one of the comments that you made about policy 3200 needs to be revised to address the material selection to talk about the oversight and um coincidentally it we talked about that at our last um policy committee meeting and so some of the same words that you said in your thing were brought up in the policy committee meeting so I do need to just ask have you had any interaction with anybody on this school board from December 22nd to the present regarding this book stamped and how you can get it out of our schools um I emailed you all other than
136that email side there was probably um two or three emails that probably in December and in January that were sent to you all in response to yeah I'm presenting this is a problem I'm seeing it and then the response if I remember and again this is stretching is that please go through the proper channels so that's what I did all right Miss uh Bradford I'm not gonna go there I was going to ask you about your correspondence and uh so on but miss Grable is referring to my December email to you on December 13th the exact day that you filed your first letter with the teacher excuse me the principal and you said have you seen this information I responded all board back very publicly um send us excerpts because I know nothing about what
137you're talking about and because I'm a journalist because I fact check because I'm a researcher I wanted to know immediately your email didn't come back as fast as I wanted it to so I did some research and I responded back that the book was horrible and as a professional of 25 years with college education and teaching this it was horrible to me that I saw this one example that was so egregious and twisting of history and distorting history I was so afraid because in my line of work if I get an if I spell one of your names wrong you will never forget that we did that in our publication so I hold our team to a really excellent standards to never get a fact wrong the fact check fact check fact Tech fact check
138and we do that we check resources we spend an inordinate amount of time we can argue for hours over one word we can argue for days over one word and so the to have seen something that I was afraid that someone would read that and believe it to be true and for the rest of their life walk around with that mistruth in their head it was horrifying to me and you said for you you were got really emotional when you first read the book um so you know my question to you would be did you ever stop being emotional about the book and the the the the Twisted view of history that you feel it is there did it ever did it ever subside are you still as emotional about it now as you were
139then well that's a good question since we teach social emotional learning and we should be in touch with our feelings and so yes actually the emotion has driven me and I think the Injustice of it drives me um as well and so I had to funnel that into the proper channels of uh challenging at the school level mtac and receiving the denial choosing whether I would pursue it again or not but every time that I that I did and I reread parts of that book it's just and as we know I opted my daughter out of this I get so many questions about what's your problem your daughter didn't have to read the material well my problem is you know I'm an educator and I'm a parent and I care about our actual history and
140I want students and I want adults to learn it properly and so that drives me and it drives me to this day because otherwise why would I put up with all of the the media and the backlash and it's a lot it is a lot I mean it's become so contentious it's awful I mean there's there's people on the board off the board writing to the author and creating all of this emotion so it's an emotional topic and I think it just needs to the emotion I hope didn't it might be coming through in some of my responses but in my argument I put forth objective proof and I think that that's what it needs to come back to I have six objective reasons and it's not my personal Viewpoint and I don't have the
141credentials to ban this book this is for y'all to consider all right and it's not based on you know my values it's based on these six reasons and I hope that you will take that to heart I hope that everything else that's going on outside that the media has portrayed all of the you know the x or Twitter with ibrahamex candy all the community stuff with the American Library Association it's a little out of control and it's a reason why we the people don't actually get you know do our job well because there's so much backlash and so I just I'm sure you've received it too but um would say it's worth fighting for it's something I think we need to address objectively and ultimately I trust that you'll deliberate and make the right decision
142Ms Walker last last thing I wasn't going to have one but I just heard this and I'm I'm I'm confused because as public officials we we get a lot so I know how you feel about that it happens daily it's happened this week to me so I get it but I don't even feel this is self-imposed I mean your daughter had an exception but you wanted to take it further which is your right to do and it's fair and you've presented your evidence as fairly as you feel possible but to complain that it's um it's hard it's it's kind of self-imposed so I I just don't understand why maybe you feel like that is not important here I didn't want this hearing I was very clear from the beginning so I mean my opinions have
143always been the same is that a question yeah I mean I wonder why you feel like you I mean the question was in there I mean it's a complaint that it's it's hard but you've done this to yourself I mean you brought it here on your own of your own free will is what I'm saying why why did you want to take it why because I'm doing the next right thing for our kids in our community is Barnhart I have a simple question for you are you aware that the the policy committee meetings are streamed in public for not only you but the entire Community to hear about the discussions that are going on I am aware that they are there I haven't watched them all thank you Miss Mason Mr McManus me Miss Graybill
144yes um so miss Gage you didn't answer my question um I asked have you had any interaction with the board members outside of your emails that it can be at a party it can be at a political event it can be standing out in the hallway um so my actual correspondence in conversation was in the beginning in December and January with everybody and because I am a member of the Republican Party absolutely I have crossed paths with the conservative members of this body at the gala that we had but we didn't have any correspondence I didn't ask for correspondence interaction yeah so yes because we would cross paths in that way at a political event yes I saw them at the Lincoln Reagan Douglas dinner Bedford no Ms Walker Patrick Barnhart sorry as a follow-up
145to that question was there any conversation about anything in regards to your appeal are there process of appeal when you were able to see us in a room together did anything like that happen no absolutely not because I realized that I didn't want to jeopardize anything having to do with my case and it's not the way I roll to jeopardize something by conversing with somebody that could be falsely interpreted okay last last time around um Miss Mason Mr McManus me Miss crabill yes go ahead um so in since December 2022 and your email to Mark Robinson's office have you had any guidance from him or um any other legal counsel including anyone from our Law Firm about how to proceed with presenting your K other than Mr Vogel giving you the directions um no I
146reported to the facts commission and then I called to see if they had received it back in into July beginning of August they said they had received it and compiled it at the fax commission no answers no they had received it do I have to wait do I have to go back to it again it's Walker I'm gonna miss Bradford I think we're on a fishing Expedition here so let's just get the elephant out of the room have you had any conversations with me about this book after my email on December 13th or 14th now my timeline tells me that you filed your appeal in April of this year so from December to April we didn't have any conversations did we and from April to now we didn't have any conversations didn't we in fact
147I've avoided you like the plague have I not yes this is true I have not had any conversations with that Bradford thank you any other questions okay well thank you I'm going to ask the board do we need to take a few minute break let's take a five minute break my watch is 11 12. please be back on the diets by 11 17. five five yes foreign thank you [Music] forever yeah foreign no no no thanks guys foreign thank you [Music] thank you very much [Music] thank you very much foreign board members one minute uh one minute till we starting up again come back where's my whistle I had to leave my whistle board members one minute one minute warning [Music] okay that's the board to uh take their seats back please audience please take
148your seats back we thank you for giving us that uh five minute break um we are ready to continue um again thank you Miss Gates uh we will now hear from Ms Princeton on behalf of the school district the respondent please be reminded that your presentation will be limited to 20 minutes Miss Brinson thank you thank you before I present my presentation that I have prepared I wanted to kind of clear clarify a couple of things in exhibit 20 eight the full syllabus Miss Kidwell does mention multiple times when she's talking about her resources it says others if time permits so she did address the fact that she would be reading other she would be reading other um there would be other resources the kids would have access to if time permitted also other readings
149that they did in class were Man's Search for meeting The Narrative of Frederick Douglass FDR's declaration of war Reagan's inaugural address both of them Lincoln's inaugural address the Gettysburg Address the Declaration of Independence the Declaration of sentiments entire woman Mitch McConnell's speech on January 6th Malcolm X learning to read JFK's inaugural address Teddy rosenfeld's inaugural address professions of women education of women Faulkner's essay for Sports Illustrated lessons of being MLK letter from Birmingham Jail Lady Bird Johnson's keynote John Green Hall of of presidents allegory of the cave but Bush's Katrina's speech those are just some of the other readings that they did in class okay so thank you for the opportunity to address Ms Gates request for reconsideration her request shows that we have a strong board policy of 3210 which is artifact three that
150allows a parent to share concerns with her child's school and work with the school to ensure that they as a parent are able to guide their child's education Miss Gates concern was heard and addressed through an alternate text assignment and her right to decide what is best for her child was respected by Ashley High School this hearing is about Miss Gates request to restrict the access to stamped racism anti-racism in You by Jason Reynolds and ibram X kindy for all future AP Language and Composition students in the district at Ashley High School where this request began AP language and composition is only taught by Miss Kidwell who was an undergraduate degree which is a double major in history and English with a master's degree in English literature she also has the K-12 AIG certification and
151is licensed to teach grades 6 through 12 English and social studies Ms Kidwell is a national board certified and Adolescent English language arts and has almost 25 years of experience teaching 39 students took the optional AP Language and Composition course during the 22-23 school year at Ashley and all of them took the AP exam 63 percent of these students scored a three or higher which is nine percent greater than any other District school these students received college credit for passing the AP exam as you will see in artifact 26 the College Board expects AP students to analyze different perspectives from their own they are not required to feel certain ways about themselves or the course content AP courses instead develop students abilities to assess The credibility of sources draw conclusions and make up their own
152minds in artifact 27 you will see the AP English Language and Composition course focuses on the development and revision of evidence-based analytic and argumentative writing the rhetorical analysis of non-fiction texts and the decisions writers make as they compose and revise students evaluate synthesize and cite research to support their arguments additionally they read and analyze rhetorical elements and their effects in non-fiction texts from a range of disciplines and historical periods stamped racism anti-racism in you text was selected because it represents a well-sourced rhetorical argument from a minority perspective that provides ample opportunities for students to fulfill the AP Language and Composition standards artifact 12 shows that on December 14 2022 Miss Gates contacted her child's AP language teacher and principal expressing concern about the assigned book stamped racism anti-racism and You by Jason Reynolds and ibram
153X candy in response to that request news Gates was given a list of titles that her child could substitute for the assigned text as seen in artifact 11. Miss Gates selected an alternate text or an alternate title for the assignment and her child was not required to read stamped nor was a student required to attend the AP course while the book was discussed in class news Gate's concern was heard and addressed and her right to decide what is best for her child was respected by Ashley High School after securing an alternate text for her child Ms Gates chose to request the reconsideration of the use of stamped in the AP language curriculum for all students at Ashley High School this request can be seen in artifact 12. the Ashley high school media technology advisory committee
154was convened to review and respond to Ms Gates concerns and artifact 13 the 14 member School mtac composed of the principal teachers from seven subject areas two students two parents and a community representative identified eight AP Language and Composition standards and eight standards from the North Carolina standard course of study for English three that stamped is aligned with the committee concluded that stamp was presented and analyzed as an argument which by definition must take a position and is therefore appropriate for inclusion in AP language class Ashley's imtac voted to take no action this decision can be seen in artifact 14. after receiving the Ashley High School mtac response Ms Gates submitted a district level request for reconsideration of the use of stamped in the AP language curriculum at Ashley High School this request is on
155page 2 of artifact 15. and this request she stated that she had no problem with the way the book aligns with the curriculum but objected to the content of the book the New Hanover County Schools district mtac was convened to review and respond to her concerns the district mtac is comprised of the assistant superintendent for technology and digital learning the director of curriculum instruction Chief Equity diversity and inclusion officer three curriculum Specialists from English language arts and social studies and World languages the county and principal teacher of the year and the district lead media specialist as seen in artifact 16. after reviewing board policies 3200 3210 the reconsideration procedures for instructional materials New Hanover County Schools quality review checklist for instructional resources School level challenge information AP Language and Composition course and exam descriptions resources
156from the college board on what AP stands for Miss kidwell's syllabus teacher assignments professional reviews Awards and other resources the nine member district mtac voted to uphold uphold the school's decision of take no action after receiving the New Hanover County Schools district impact response Ms Gates requested a hearing with the school board related to the use of stamped in the AP language curriculum across New Hanover County Schools this request is artifact 19. in her complaint to the board Ms Gates cited the content of the book stamped to be her primary objection stating that it is anti-American and divisive and the evidence presented for this hearing she broadened that argument to include the Lexile of the book the sources cited in the book and the book's alignment to New Hampshire County Schools board policy 3200 as
157well as her assertion that it does not prepare students adequately for the AP language exam I will address each of these in turn as I stated earlier the AP language course at Ashley High School had the highest passing rate of all AP language courses in New Hanover County Schools the parent raised concerns about the suitability of the text based on the Lexile level Lexile refers to a suggested complexity based on word Frequency Word difficulty and length of sentences The Lex offer stamped is one thousand a fourth through eighth grade reading level however lexiles do not singularly determine the academic Merit if we were to make a complexity decision based only on Lexile stamped the remix is too easy for an AP class however complexity does not rest only on Lexile complexity also can mean complexity
158of thought complexity of relationships among characters or complexity of topics for example Ernest Hemingway's story Hills like white elephants is commonly taught in college freshman composition classes but the Lexile is only 730. why would they do that because the complexity of the idea and because of the unspoken parts of the text are the most powerful parts we need to resist the urge to use Lexile as the only measure of what is grade level appropriate according to Terry lesson a reading ladder reading levels and lexiles are not the way to determine the rigor of a text instead rigor should be determined by sophistication of thought depth of character development stylistic choices and Mastery of language on the part of the author to further illustrate this here are some more examples of texts that are frequently appear
159in College English classes fifth grade Lexile books include For Whom the Bell Tolls by Hemingway 840. Kite Runner by hosseini 840 A Farewell A Farewell to Arms by Hemingway 730. Cat's Cradle by Vonnegut 790. some examples with even lower lexiles include Night by visel which is a second grade reading level for third grade The Sun Also Rises by Hemingway 610. fourth grade Grapes of Wrath Steinbeck 680 The Color Purple by Walker 670. lexiles alone do not determine the approprieness of a text for students one of Miss Gates complaints in the district level mtac was related to the accuracy of the sources cited specifically Jefferson's notes on the state of Virginia referenced in chapter 8 on page 57 and identified in the source notes as appearing on page 229 of the primary source a member of
160the district level mtac team contacted Lisa yaskowitz the editor stamped from the beginning by ibram X Kennedy the book Jason Reynolds used as the source for the information contained within stamped racism anti-racism and you Miss yaskowitz said while the book currently cites just page 229 of the primary source the information also comes from a few surrounding pages 228-232 of the same source The Source Dr Kennedy used is the original 19 original 1787 edition of Jefferson's notes on the state of Virginia Miss yakowitz also shared the cited material from page 57 to 58 and stamped followed by the corresponding text from this primary source in her exhibits for this hearing Miss Gates expressed concern about additional citations it was not possible to vet each of these concerns within the timeline provided however the source notes for
161stamped racism anti-racism in you are based on the research of Dr ibram X kindy and his book stamped from the beginning Dr kindy is a highly respected historian and Scholar whose book stamped from the beginning won the national book award in 2016 for nonfiction therefore the work as a whole can be assumed to accurately represent the primary sources cited the district mtac addressed this concern as seen in artifact 16 and felt the teacher had a reasonable belief that the author and publisher would confirm the accuracy of citations in the copy editing process and the overall list of references can be assumed to accurately cite the primary sources both School level and District level impacts concluded that stamped meets the objectives for selection of supplementary materials as outlined in board policy 3200 Miss Gates referenced the
162quality review checklist mentioned in letter B number three materials brought in by teachers which states before bringing in any material that has not already been approved by the school or District a teacher must determine that the material is appropriate for the classroom by evaluating the material using the quality review checklist for instructional resources which is artifact seven stamped was purchased for Ashley Media Center in the 2020-2021 school year and was therefore already approved at the school level thereby negating the need to complete this checklist Miss Gates claims the content of the book prevails over the value of its rhetorical structures saying the book is based on a biased manipulative opinion instead of facts and the content doesn't allow for students to become free and critical thinkers and is rooted in questionable ideology the teacher's assignments
163seen in artifact 29 and 30 illustrate the way the text was used these assignments do not require students to accept the text as fact rather they require students to use critical thinking skills to question the text as well as analysis and citation of sources to support their thinking a few of the questions the teacher asked students to respond to and cite textual evidence were what's the tone of the text cite and explain something Reynolds said that made you consider cite and explain something Randall said that made you consider a different perspective other than your own and our Reynolds rhetorical appeals effective for you as a reader Miss Gates claimed that stamped is anti-American is not Excuse Me Miss Gates claim that stamped is anti-American is not a fact it is her opinion and it is
164an opinion that further marginalizes the exact group of people that Jason Reynolds is trying to support Jason Reynolds is an American ibram X kindy is an American the people and events described in stamped are American as Miss Kidwell wrote to miss Gates the whole point of this text is to view to view a perspective that differs from one's own white people black people Latino people indigenous people and Asian people in America all have very different experiences and views we cannot be myopic in our understanding of the American Experience Additionally the July call to the audience allowed students staff parents and community members to exercise their First Amendment right to free expression and Illustrated that Miss Gates opinion that stamped is anti-American is not universally agreed upon by our community the call to the audience Illustrated
165that parents agree with Miss Gates that it is their right to make decisions for their own child but they did not want missed Gates or any other parent to make decisions for all children Ashley High School allowed Miss gates to guide her child's education and select alternate and select an alternate title to stamps which she did that's where her rights end to remove stamps from all New Hanover County Schools AP Language and Composition courses based on Miss Gates opinion of the content of the book allows her to make decisions for all children rather than just her own to accept and enforce Miss Gates world view over others that have been expressed to the board would be a miscarriage of Justice Miss Gates request is not based on any legitimate pedagogical interest rather it appears to
166be motivated by a desire to suppress the ideas and opinions contained in this book the idea that this book is divisive and anti-American is Miss Gates opinion which she is entitled to have just as she has the right to Shield her own child from the content of the book however she does not have the right to make this decision for other families we as educators are charged with educating all twenty six thousand New Hanover County School students and therefore it is imperative to remember that there are many children and families who differ from our own our schools reflect the beauty and diversity of our New Hanover County Schools children's families and school communities one size does not fit all and cannot fit all and as such one parent's beliefs cannot dictate what is taught to
167all students thank you for your time and attention I would like to leave you with a few final thoughts and questions Miss Gates playing stamped is educationally unsuitable and grade level inappropriate the evidence I have presented today shows that stamp is aligned with the AP and North Carolina English language arts standards and is appropriate for inclusion in the AP Language and Composition course to remove it for any reason other than to remove it for any other reason would violate the Board of Education versus Pico 1982 legislation artifact one which states a local Board of Education May establish a community media advisory committee to investigate and evaluate challenges from parents teachers and members of the public to textbooks and supplementary instructional materials on the grounds that they are educationally and suitable pervasively vulgar or inappropriate to
168the age maturity or grade level the students additionally the board votes remove this book from New Hanover County Schools AP language curriculum what precedent are you setting related to Banning books in our school system what message are you sending to our teachers about your belief and their ability to make instructional decisions for their classrooms and what is the message you're sending to our African-American students staff families and Community who may see their experiences reflected within the pages of this book thank you Mrs Branson [Applause] okay we will follow the same order that we did before and again please limit your questions to questions if at all possible well no please leave them your questions and questions uh we will start with Miss Mason Ed that Lexile alone does not Define complexity and if there are
169concerns that parents have regarding Lexile why was this book chosen over the original text by Kenny can you and can you answer that I I could not answer that I've not spoken to the teacher about that okay Mr McManus um if I'm correct the committee chair that met with consisted of assistant superintendent director of curriculum and instructions Chief Equity diversity and include excuse me curriculum specialist social studies in World Language curriculum specialists curriculum specialist Elementary Ela specialist the New Hanover County principal of the year the New Hanover County teacher of the year and the lead media coordinator they were all part of the process yes and then when it was approved it went to Dr fowl yes thank you thank you Mr President again thank you for your presentation um how would you how would
170the student or how was the student included in class uh when she agreed to take an alternative book would she given any face-to-face time with the teacher I know the teacher was able to give her the same type of assignment that the kids had except for the project because the project was done as a group and she was an individual But the teacher did read through the book and gave her the same types of assignments and assessments that all the other students have received okay I'll answer my follow-up question later on um going on to miss crabill yes um in the school-wide mtac committee review there were two students on that team correct can you please tell us what the students had to say about this book and the and the process we did not
171the notes did not kind of specify like who made what kind of comments so I don't have any notes from that that was just within the school impact Bradford Miss Princeton I don't know exactly how many months are in a semester excuse me but miss Gates testified that her daughter was out of the class for one solid months there's six books in the class and then you listed um the other resource materials there was probably five or six of those so my question would be if this book had one whole month of the semester what percentage was given to the other books or did this have a majority of the discussion yeah first of all the class was actually taught over the whole year they do eight a b day so it's not just a
172semester course and um they I couldn't tell you how much time was spent on any one book individually but I know that they did Cover multiple books and multiple readings thank you Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um I guess my first question is do you believe removal of this book from the curriculum could damage or hurt the district's ability to offer AP Language and Composition in the future and if so would it harm students access to class and potential college credit So based on the board policy right well if we if this board decides to remove it from the AP curriculum will it damage um will it damage the district's ability to offer the the course potentially um and in the future and if so would it would it I mean it would harm
173students for college credit that would be the the college board's decision to make um they have had precedent and kind of made statements about the thoughts and stuff and I have to find the thing I just feel it while you're looking I mean a parent came to us at a called audience who had taken the same book the same course or the same teacher and was concerned that perhaps if we remove it that it would affect her college credit and I'm I guess my question really is I can I'm concerned if we if we as a board decide to remove this from curriculum could it hurt our district and as far as AP offers it the College Board does not make a definite decision one way or the other they wait until the each topic
174kind of comes up and each individual they will not say that if certain topics are covered or not covered it would remove the um the credit and I probably has been trying to find where that one is but it's basically about on the thing so like let's say in the science class biology class the example they gave is if you were to not teach Evolution you know and not do both sides they then would because that is part of the science credit they then would remove the credit thank you so basically it says AP opposes censorship you know AP is animated and by Deep respect for the intellectual freedom of teachers and students alike if a school bans require topics from their AP course the AP program removes the AP designation from that course and
175its inclusion in the AP course Ledger provided by the colleges and universities for example the concept of evolution are at the heart of college biology and a course that neglects such Concepts does not pass muster and AP biology so they kind of take each each individual instance with all the facts before they make a decision so potentially it could Miss Barnhart I'll follow up with that so the evidence that you submitted as far as the syllabus that the teacher submitted does not include this book and it says if times allowed that the teacher would include other criteria so as the College Board looks at this class they have not even considered and weighed in on the topic of whether or not they would believe this to be either quality or not quality for an AP
176course exam is that correct so the College Board when they are vetting the materials they don't I mean betting the courses they don't vet necessarily the teacher of materials that they're using so the course audit is an annual process however after receiving authorization during any school year schools will not need to be you know resubmit the AP course audit forms or syllabus in following years unless the teacher has changed or the school offers a new course or curricular resource or the resources and requirements for the course undergo significant revision by the college board so they're allowed to change their texts and that's that's allowed okay thank you Miss Mason your second question I know you mentioned this in in your statement but could you reiterate the process of how this particular book got from one
177place into the classroom the the exact start to finish how it got there so um at the time basically Ashley's high school media and Technology advisory committee was part of the school's leadership team and the mtac was a standing item on every leadership meeting agenda one of the schools 2020-21 School Improvement team goals in NC Star was a 4.22 all teachers are responsive to students cultural backgrounds and incorporate culturally relevant material in their classrooms additionally Ashley 2020 2021 collection development policy focused on adding new books related to diversity in the interest of students Equity Ashley High School's 2020 2020 2020 2021 plan says diversity diverse books featured characters from diverse racial backgrounds ethnicity ethnicities religions lgbtq and neurodivergent poverty immigration disabilities and more all students need to find themselves represented on the pages of our
178books so in August of 2020 two copies of stamped were ordered for the library and then 10 additional copies were purchased for a young adult Global read-aloud staff book study to support the goal a 4.22 the book was selected based on one the starred and positive reviews from five different professional review resources Ashley's identified need to add Positively reviewed new releases to the 300s which is your social science selection of the library commonly used for student research and self-selected reading topics three to provide resources representing various points of view on controversial issues so that students as young citizens May develop under Guidance the skills of critical thinking and critical analysis and then four to provide resources representative of The Many religious ethnic and cultural groups in our nation and the contributions of these groups to
179our American Heritage additionally the principle approves a principal's approval was granted for this purchase Mr McManus your second question so I don't know the definition so it would be hard for me to actually say that we're teaching to say that we're teaching because I don't know what the definition is thank you I'm going to rephrase or ask the same question I asked last time and I do want to point out the board members that I'm following my own thing I didn't come up with the second question on top of the last one because the second part of my question was never of that it was never really answered what was the was the student given face-to-face instruction that was my question not whether you know whether they're giving us a alternate assignment where they basically
180sent to the library here's your assignment and we'll see in a month I I couldn't answer that question I don't know the answer to that sorry yeah I asked you two weeks ago but that's what that's okay Miss Graybill did um the the parents on the Ashley mtac what did they have to say about the process when the school does their school impact level and then the notes are given they don't document like every when they meet everything that everybody says so I don't have any documentation from the school as to what each individual person responded Bradford so the school impact is approximately 13 people and that includes students and parents they're Anonymous we have no idea who they are and then the um or maybe we've got it reverse one's 13 and one's ten
181and there's no documentation of what they said to see um there's I mean you didn't record what people said I'm not part of the process at the school level because I have to stay out of that because I would be part of the process at the district level if it came up so the school has other documentation other than the report that they submitted to um to the to the parent I have a copy of that report I don't have all of the other notes and stuff that that they talked about or that they did okay Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um I guess my next question I don't know if you can answer this or not I um maybe it's just an opinion but I mean I've already heard from parents um in
182the district that some AP teachers are holding back on teaching the way they would like to as professionals um and um and they're concerned with any decision this board makes to remove or restrict texts and their ability to do their professional job I guess my question is do you feel like a decision from this board to to restrict in the curriculum would cause potential staff to leave or be very unsatisfied I mean I've heard these rumors I don't know if it's true but maybe this is your an opinion the district has on whether it will affect teachers and whether they'll stay here that potential is there each teacher would need to make that decision for themselves thank you Bernard Miss Brinson do we have the ability to change labels of books when we acquire them
183to our libraries as well as can you explain the process of how we acquire books and check those references for both either library or curriculum selection okay you first talk about labeling and then you're talking about acquiring so could you kind of clarify what you're doing so I I guess well I'll bet I'll ask my first do we have the ability to allow for the label that when we acquire a book into our library of what section we put it in yes we do okay back to miss Mason for a third question do we know how long this has been in use in this in the classroom generally speaking like in in Miss kidwell's classroom or just in general in general um I'd have to look that up I don't know how long it's been
184in the district or how often it's been checked out but I know that the school purchased it in August of 2020. Mr McManus are you aware of any intentions or discussions locally or Statewide to to ban or restrict in any of our history classes which are written by the state of North Carolina um anything to do with racism I'm not aware of anything thank you um please share with us how per our policy 3200 this book represents various points of view on controversial issues so that young citizens May develop under Guidance the skills of critical thinking and critical analysis I really want to answer your question this time could you repeat it one more time absolutely please share with us uh how this per our policy 3200 this book represents various points of view on
185controversial issues so that young citizens May develop under Guidance the skills of critical thinking and critical analysis how does it show various points of view when you look at policy talking about the various points of views you're looking at the whole collection of the library not every single book so it's the collection of the media center and whole versus each individual book that is in the media center having to show different points of view Miss crabill um yeah have any other parents complained about this book either and either through the request form or through emails to the teacher or to the principal not that I'm aware of Mr Bradford Miss Princeton can I go back to the timeline because I'm I like timelines they really help me order things um the school purchased the book
186in August 2022 copies and then it went from there that there was a group in 2021 that had a school goal to improve diversity and equity and some more books were Acquired and they that somehow then they got into the libraries um but we I just at the last policy meeting I heard um expert testimony that you know all of our books go through the quality checklist and I've looked at the Quality checklist and there doesn't appear to be one that was ever done on this book and it's missing from the syllables that the teacher turned into the AP so my question is did at any time this book ever undergo any kind of review for suitability for this class that class the library for anything or the quality checklist yeah so last year was
187the first year that Miss kid will use this book however before you know media Specialists purchased books for the media center they do have to go through a process like what you see in policy 3200 so there is a process where the mtac has to meet or they do meet as you saw at the um policy meeting when you spoke to the principal of Castle Hayne sometimes it's done on their plcs but there is a conversation done between teachers media Specialists principal Administration about a book and to be able to justify that the book is appropriate for the school or individual classes before it's purchased and that did take place before that Soviet Union School year this school they actually in the spring do their collection and their order for the following year so like
188last spring they were working on their order for this coming school year so the books would be present in the library and so that's how that the library collection is analyzed and built at Ashley thank you Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um policy 3210 states that books and other instructional materials may be removed from the social media collection or school media collection only for legitimate educational regions and subject to the limitations of the First Amendment did the committee consider that indoctrination Marxism communism was strong enough educational reasons to remove um and it met the threshold for the First Amendment that was discussed because I was part of that that mtac committee so that was discussed and again we were more the content is not what we were focusing on right because that is not
189how the teacher was using the book so we were talking more about the the writing style and the students being able to analyze and to form their own opinions and do their own research thank you Ms Barnhart would you explain the difference in book selection and how we our references for our library books in comparison for the lessons and the curriculum that teachers adopt in the classroom or if there's a different process so we they we have policy 3200 which is what they're supposed to follow um in that process they should be looking at you know the selections and they look at the um the reviews to to think or expect that a media specialist is reading every single book that's in their library before it's purchased it's not realistic but they do research reviews
190and look at the reviews and go by that before they order their books I could not tell you whether she looked at every resource I would imagine probably not because that's a lot of work to do and she can't do it for every book thank you Miss Mason your fourth question so you mentioned the process um is there this is a two-parter someone else is there paper or digital documentation of the original mtac approval of this book and if so where is it because I did not see it in all of the plethora of papers that we have so what I provided is what the school report that they've done there very well may be at the school site documentation of their actual meeting and what they've done I have not had access to that
191Mr McManus wow thank you keep us going if this board can agree to not ban the book from schools classes by adding an opposing resource how long would that take to implement if it was done today I imagine it wouldn't take too long it would be just a matter of talking getting some people together at each school to figure out and identify a book and make sure that it's showing the opposing side and then for the mtac meeting committee to kind of meet together to have that conversation and then to to purchase the book so you're talking probably just a few months maybe Max thank you that's a good question um my question and I've got two parts but I'm only gonna do one part this time and that is and I'm going to use
192my little thing my little teaching fingers here do we strongly suggest students buy books in all of our AP classes I don't know I would hope to think not because probably not everybody could afford necessarily um I do believe when I we asked that and that was questioned and um I do know that it was in her syllabus but when we questioned her they were not told they had to buy it it was like the student's choice but I do recall like you it's in the syllabus thing that strongly suggests thank you Miss Graybill um so could you explain to us the difference between selection of supplementary materials um number two in policy 3200 in general and the selection of materials brought in by teachers number three of the policy middle because it looks to
193me that my my understanding is the quality review checklist is mainly used when a teacher wants to bring in an outside book that has not already been approved by the district you are you are correct so the um in the process of policy 3200 you have first your curriculum materials which are done at the district level and that would be done through your curriculum instruction department so they identify resources they vet much like the new curriculum that you've seen of the language arts in in math for K-8 so then you go to the supplementary resources and if they're being purchased by the school then the school mtac committee meets they have a conversation or they are sometimes in their plc's because they do meet a lot we've got multiple teachers and you've got Administration and
194they have conversations and they discuss resources that would be appropriate based on you know maybe there's a skill or a objective that they need to you know reinforce with the students or cover and so they have that conversation and then that's where the committee meets they make approval and then they are able to add the book to the collection the the teacher piece is when there is a book you know and most often it may be in a like a personal you know classroom Library where it's a book that's brought in that does not exist anywhere else you know in the school so um and that's where they use that quality review checklist it's Bradford I'm going to keep talking about the process and the approval by the district because it seems like the book
195came into the school district and there was perhaps an oral discussion among the principal and the mtac committee meeting um and the impact there was just some you you said that they had conversation about it does it mean they sat down in a meeting or it was just a conversation is there any recording of that are there any notes from that so that that we can see how the process was followed how it was approved into the district and then because it had it circumvented any other review to get into the class and that presents questions in your mind so I keep going back to how did it get into the school district without some kind of approval that's documented somewhere and you had said it was just a conversation between the principal and some
196of the intact committee members so I need Clarity there please when the mtac committee meets they do have to document that they met but they they just basically say that they met at this time and you may very well have you know things that they've approved to purchase it wasn't necessarily a formal process where minutes are taken stuff we've not ever requested or required schools to do that where minutes are kept when they meet so they do meet they have documentation that they met and that the discussion of the book was for for multiple reasons to add to the library as well as for that um for the NC Star goal for the school Improvement team so they were adding it based on on two reasons versus just the one and so that's why it
197was in the library first and then it was first purchased two copies for the library and then they purchased the additional copies for the um the global read aloud Ms Walker um I guess my question I'm trying to form it really before I uh when I was listening so I know we're trying to appease and escapes with both sides argument and that's fine but I would like to discuss the autonomy of our staff um and to do their professional job and what we've hired them for and we have a process for parents that don't want their child to read a particular book and lots of other processes so you covered Miss kidwell's great track record as an AP teacher um I'm guessing does the district want to be restrictive as far as the autonomy of
198the teacher I mean or the board I mean we have a certain role here I get that but AP also is a different standards as well and a whole manual so um I I know we want to kind of come to a compromise I would personally not like to see it removed from any in any shape way shape or form but would this affect the autonomy of teachers to do their job professionally if we started laying down you know different roles and things like that well yes I mean if you're if you're going to restrict what they're able to to use as resources in the classroom it very well could teachers want to make sure they're finding resources that are appropriate for for their class every class is the same resources I use for one
199class may be completely different than what I use for another class it's just based on those students and their needs in that in that class and if you go to restrict them then it kind of makes it a little bit harder for them to meet the needs of their students to make sure that they are getting the education they need to and to be able to pass their their assessments and be able to move on Earnhardt how many individuals including yourself have an AP certification who are reviewing it either of the district or the school level I do not I will give you that um I don't know if we've I don't know that number we can definitely get it for you though it's Mason I want to go back to the syllabus um look
200at the syllabus that the parents and the students were given and then we compare it to what was submitted to the College Board and it was noted um I in reading through that that stamped n57 bus but that's not what we're discussing but that stamped was not in any component of it we're talking as a district about being transparent and for a teacher to not share all of the information with her students is concerning do we know why she restructured it for the parents and students and didn't give them all of the readings and all of the you know being transparent um and instead simplified it and made it a much shorter document so I mean the teachers did get their reading list that actually had stamped in 57 bus on it so they did
201get that one it was the one that was turned in that said they could choose other resources as time permitted so I know my daughter's an AP you know language class now but the syllabus she has is is no longer than this one it may be even shorter so they don't list necessarily all the books that the kids read um they are required to have great detail when they submit it to the College Board in order to get approval and so their goal is to kind of summarize it when they provide it for the teachers and have it available for students thank you Mr McManus would you explain to the audience because I'm not sure they're very familiar with the difference in a traditional schedule an A B schedule and a block schedule but and
202I'd like to make a comment at the end of that please you said a b schedule so a traditional the a b in Block okay so a block schedule could very well mean 90 minutes so you get 90 minutes and so the seat time you're compacting a full year into one semester um with an A B schedule you're meeting every other day to extend the time so let's say it's 90 minutes that would be in a block schedule so that'll take you from August until um four hours will be January um in an A B which would be 90 minutes in an A B schedule it may be 45 or 50 minutes which is going to extend the the time oftentimes individuals do that with our AP schedule to ensure that they get the instruction
203that will take them over for the AP exam which is in the spring in the month of May AP exams begin yes the very first four weeks of May yeah does that inhibit in any way those students who the teacher teaching the block cannot and has not been able to review with those who finished that course in January and those kids who are in the second semester or probably going to miss two to three weeks of instruction because the teacher is going to start reviewing as soon as possible hopefully to capsule everything they think will be on the test and so the advantage and disadvantages probably have a great deal to do with our AP scores and a b the same way I know why we do it I never did work with an a
204block schedule in fact I did not like still down with the block schedule because of it's been disproportionate timing but thank you and there's no certification for AP there is training so individuals go for the College Board training all right to follow up in the proper form with my last question if a student um can't afford or isn't able to afford a book is he or she put at a disadvantage because they do we give them a book that they can take home or you can only they can they only read it in the classroom in this class I would imagine if they have the books in the class in the classroom or in the school they provide the book for the child to take home um it may very well be that they don't
205need to take it home every day and maybe kind of just depending on how the assignments are done but um I would like to think that we provide students with the books that they need and don't require them to purchase that's what I thank you Scrabble nothing nothing further counselor thank you ma'am Ms Bradford I'm stuck on process I'm sorry you have given us a lot of these book reviews in our in our package and you said earlier that in the beginning that that they looked at these book reviews and they said the book that we want and as I look through them they're all about the content absolutely 100 about content social studies um you know it's just repeated over and over and the Educators guide history um it just page after page so
206I'm not sure why these were included I've looked at them I've read every word and if they reviewed this I don't see anything in here that says this is going to be a great book to analyze for speech and English composition all I see is this going to be a great book to teach history and I know that you said the teacher was licensed to teach in both English and social studies and and all of these book reviews are about social studies so is it possible that that initial group that brought it into the school was bringing it in to be a social studies book and then it somehow got its way into an English language and composition class without anyone reviewing it I'm trying to get the trail of how it ended up in
207that class without the what we now would insist on review process so initially the book was brought into the school for focusing on new books related diversity the interest of students Equity they wanted diverse books that featured characters from diverse racial racial backgrounds ethnicities religions the lgbtq the neurodivergent poverty immigrations disability so it was first brought into the school and the media center for that reason for that purpose then when Miss Kidwell was selecting her books for this AP class she had to find books that would meet the standards for the AP course and I can show you and I think you have a reference there that lists all the different standards that stamp covers both in the AP Lang and composition as well as the North Carolina standard courses study thank you Miss Walker
208so I don't have anything sir nothing else doctor thank you Miss Barnhart you mentioned um balance and I agree that curriculum development and course and book selection are very different process so to have a balance you have to look at the whole um syllabus and the entity some things that you mentioned to bring about that balance included speeches letters letters written Keynotes and those were direct sources from individuals the difference that I see here and I question if it's similar is this author is analyzing a perspective and it's not his personal account of something where as you look at speeches and a direct letter as a initial account so I would like to know that is the was the district conclusion the balance by including those speeches in direct letter reference balancing this book that
209to me seems to be an analytical perspective and you're saying that that's where the balance of the course comes from that was the district decision so when we were talking about balance I believe I was referring to a question that Mr Wilder had was talking about the whole collection in the media center and the balance there um for the objectives for the um to make sure that there's a balance so that when students go into Library there's a balance of all areas on both sides so when the district mtac considered the book they were looking at trying to find the letter so we were looking at the um because of the the statement that was turned into the form that was filled out for the reconsideration of the school district decision that's the form that
210we were using and there are points that she had on that that is what the district committee used to reevaluate on hours based on what her statement was so we were looking at because at that point in time she agreed with how the book aligned with the curriculum and the use of the AP text in language arts her biggest thing was about based on Craft not on content so it was about content so that was at that point in time it was about content was her focus at that point in time so that is what we were trying to address in our district mtac is that the content it wasn't about the content so she was pointing it out that because the content was because the book was read then the kids were absorbing it
211and so that they would you know it would affect them we were saying that that is not how the book was addressed so we were just just addressing it from that perspective of how they taught it and what was expected of the AP class Miss Mason um you noted that the book was purchased in August of 2020 originally um the book itself was published just six months prior to that why was this particular one that's only been in publication at this point for three years but at that point was only in publication for six months chosen for this course overbooks with longer shelf life that have been tested and reviewed repeatedly yeah I I that would be a question for Miss Kidwell I don't have her decision process of selecting Mr McMahon I do have
212a question two-parted question like would you last and then we'll send my colon um who put this 150 page finder together and did your tabs because I noticed you have tabs do you refer to did you put those in yourself or are they included in when you received this because this is the absolute we got this yesterday we got home after our meeting after seven o'clock in a tropical storm it was excuse me day four yesterday but we had to be here 9 A.M and I just curious who put this together so I imagined Mr Vogel is the one who collected all the artifacts and then I believe he submitted it to miss Bowie and she requested that our print shop print it for you guys um mine has tabs because I've been collecting this
213information and noticed most of the artifacts are from me so once I've got Mr vogel's artifacts and Miss Gates artifacts I was able to add those and I added tabs because I like tabs I'm glad you're very organized thank you um my next question and I know originally we were told that we couldn't get this information because we were supposed to have this hearing a while back but do you know how many other educational experts at other New Hanover County Schools IAP classes for this particular class plan to use this book this year because it should be out by now that that list has to be out now because we're in school so typically in most of our AP courses or any of the courses if they have the option of using their own supplementary
214texts they're supplemental text um that would guide their instruction so Mrs in this particular course um what the the the goal would be for them to look at their syllabus and see if that matches the standards and they're able to support the supplemental tag that it supports the standard and they use their own supplemental tags so the answer to your question would be at any given time if a teacher sees that this is a supplemental text that he or she would like to use in their classroom they are able to do so thanks sir you scribble nothing I'm gonna keep asking sorry Miss Bradford oh boy I was writing six and a half days a week for a living half for 25 years um used to be I analyzed news opinion always belongs on the
215opinion page but one of the standards is for policy 3200 is lines up with good rhetoric and if I got this book submitted to me as um one of my writers work I would have graded it very poorly in terms of the quality of the writing it's in my expert opinion it is poor so aren't there other books that contain good rhetoric because that's one of the standards for study that both meet all of our school district policies in addition to the state or college boards I'm sure there is more than just this one book that would meet those standards I mean I can't imagine that this is the only book that that does I'm sure there are others but this is the one that the the teacher felt did it best Mr Walker um
216I guess I uh I mean it's here it's clear we hear because folks will pose a views and just don't like what's in this book and content and that's not what we're here to do um I'm you know I'm having a hard time that we are just super scrutinizing this particular book when the list of things that you that you listed out as far as speeches and I mean there are so many different viewpoints in there and I think just to remove this book based on I mean the MCAT committee said it all they said we didn't look at the content we looked at whether it was appropriate for the AP Lang and so um do you feel there's anything else you guys could have done I mean opinion wise to support the district and
217upholding the book I think you're looking at these standards right and that's what we're going by and that's what we've adopted in our policies and in our procedures so I mean you felt it was thorough both committees were thorough so when when looking at a book looking at teacher results we have to pay attention to highly effective and we're talking about a a resource that a teacher used to have the highest scores in the District 60 plus percent of her students received a three or four in the UNC system a three will get you these um the college credit and so what we actually do when individuals are looking at their resources versus you know their primary resources their supplemental their tax we provide or allow teachers the authenticity to select what would be most
218effective in their classroom or what supports what they're they're using primary example in a PLC a professional learning community when teachers are teaching the standard the standard is what they have to teach the standard how they arrive at the standard is what they bring to the table some teachers are going to say I would use the newspaper some may say I'm going to use this artifact so I'm going to say this but then we look then at the results and where the results positive or negative and we'll talk about results we're talking about student outcomes student output and so after that if it's not being [Music] um moved into the positive side then we have to have we being the the principal the the chairperson of The English Department the math department or whatever would
219then look and see this probably isn't an artifact that you need to use or supplemental text that you need to use and that's when they go out and they visit other teachers and look at the opportunities of how did you teach this in order to get the um the scores or get student buy-in from that so there is a process that Educators use and that's where the awesome the um the authenticity comes from is making sure that yes there's one standard that they have to teach but how you arrive there is totally different and so that's where we give the teachers the the wide scope as long as it's legal and ethical right Miss Barnhart we were given more exhibits than both the school and the district level and Tech committees is it possible that
220if you had the same documents given that those committees could have came to a different result let's say that again so we were given more exhibits than what the mtac district level and school committees were given if possible given all of the what we have seen and been discussing today could have the school or District level mtac committees come to different results yourself so going through this process has has not been simple because of the um the requests have changed over time even from earlier this week till today because it was just the AP classes and now it's all classrooms so we were trying to going through the process evaluating just on what the requests were at that time and what information we had at the time and if you noticed a lot of these
221exhibits were from me and a lot of them were ones that we did use if you look at the list for the district one there were a lot that we did use Miss Mason yeah Miss Mason I have no other questions thank you Mr McManus asked me a question it does have to be a question here's a question so the question is are you aware that we had two board members seated up on the diocese whose campaigns ran against Equity diversity and inclusion which is a personal bias or political or accommodation of both I have bias and political as well but the word Equity are you aware has been dropped we can't get Equity schools for committees anymore because they feel retribution intimidation and this is not going away this is but a beginning to
222do away with EDI which gives the black minority communities a voice it is so very important that we don't block out anybody in our community so are you aware of that information no not specifically I mean I did not know that you know that the word Equity with any board member was something before they ran okay I'm going to go back to my previous question again um and I guess I'll rephrase this so it's more specific in this classroom please share how uh in this particular class we're talking about please share with me how per our policy 3200 this book represents various points of view you said it was you know in in the the school library you know but we're talking about this class so how do how does this book represent various points
223of view on controversial issues so the young citizens May develop under Guidance the skills of critical thinking and critical analysis where is the balance in this classroom the balance would be in the other readings that they did it's hard to find in one book multiple points of view so that's why they bring in other resources it also allows you to bring in other resources from different authors so it's not just one person saying what the different points of view are so in the other readings that they've done both in the ones I've listed and the other ones that they've done because there was more would be where the different points of view would come from nothing thank you ma'am Miss Bradford okay I'm on a piggyback on Mr world of Wars about the balance in
224the other readings we have blood blood done sign my name we have the classic that most of us got The Red Badge of Courage we have the first person Frederick Douglass awesome piece Victor Frankel's first-hand person in the camps in Germany and then we have not firsthand but the the trial dialogue in 57 bus and I don't see the theme I see there is more about this group of people oppressed this group of people I don't see the balance but you say there's some other Pub there are some other things that we didn't have access to I requested months ago the syllabus the syllabi from the other AP English composition classes identical to this one taught at the other schools and I got those night before last I got two of them that was all
225that could be obtained turned out that the district didn't have them to access that they had to go to the teachers in hindsight and get them and it was shocking to me they weren't on file in some filing cabinet somewhere it seemed like those would be the things you'd keep for like a year maybe but there are in in the on the other two that I got The Red Badge of Courage was the only one duplicated by any other instructor do you know about the balance in their classes versus this class um because this one seems to have all the controversial topics in it and the others don't and and has anybody looked at these across the board here's all of our AP English composition classes we're studying the speech and the rhetoric and the
226style that they use that's why you study the speeches of of people whether it was Hitler who could Mesmerize an audience even though they couldn't understand German but they would still follow him because he was so powerful in his speaking and I studied him in Louis Louis Huey Long and all those in college but where's the balance here in in this I don't I don't see it couple things we don't collect the syllabus for any of our high school teachers most high school teachers all have syllabus they probably keep them themselves that it's not something that for the 30 years I've been here that we've ever done you know as ours for any class not just this one for any High School class or because typically your middle school and Elementary don't necessarily have syllabus
227it'd be just your high school so that's why we don't have those in this class so the other readings that they've done such as your man's search for meaning the narrative Frederick Douglass um the declaration of war by FDR Reagan's inaugural addresses Lincoln's inaugural address Gettysburg Address Declaration of Independence the Declaration of Sentiments anti-woman Mitch McConnell's speech on January 6. Malcolm X is learning to read JFK's inaugural address Katie Roosevelt's inaugural address professions of women education of women Faulkner's essay for Sports Illustrated lessons of being MLK's letter from Birmingham Jail Lady Bird Johnson's keynote John Green Hall of Presidents the allegory of the cave and Bush's Katrina's speech those would be the other readings again they weren't focusing on the content so the readings didn't necessarily have to be all history books because it was
228more about the the type of writing that it was the rhetoric and stuff versus the specific facts as far as the history Miss Walker it's me again um I guess my last question would be um obviously we were having this hearing one parent brought forward that wanted to have or remove the book from the district or curriculum but you guys are presenting cases of district and essentially we're part of the district and we should be upholding the things that you guys are bringing to us and improving and uh I guess you don't have to answer you can if you want to but you feel that this board decides to remove this curriculum it's opposed to what the district I mean what the district wants I mean I feel like it's going to send a strong
229message I think that if we don't we don't support our district and our superintendent and the decisions that you guys make um do you feel it could be open the gate for other challenges perhaps um in the future so we're definitely our goal as senior staff working for Dr Faust is following policy following the law making sure that we're doing things that are ethical and carrying out the will the board and that is that is what we will do um so if the board decides not to allow this book in classrooms then we will move forward in that direction and and tell our teachers they couldn't be using it in their classroom they could have it in the media center um thank you would it basically your question is would it affect teachers I'm sure
230it will some um but we followed policy we follow the law we followed the will the board thank you Mr Barnhart I think my last question is so just to clarify the reason why this teacher did not have to complete a quality review checklist as part of her curriculum is because it was in our media center but the media center does not fill out a quality review checklist on the criteria that they are selecting because we understand that a diverse perspective is going to be represented in multiple box correct the policy says that that quality review checklist is only for for teachers to fill out when they're adding the resources that are not already in the you know been approved by the life of the school or the district and that one has already been
231done so that's the impact doesn't use that quality review checklist they have their own process that they follow in in any unit two of college board for the AP Language and Composition it states in this unit students will continue to develop Proficiency in recognizing claims and evidence and other writers arguments while emulating such models in their own paragraphs in addition they will begin identifying the ways effective writers appeal to and persuade their audiences while practicing such appeals in their own paragraphs so what that means is that they'll read a variety of texts and from a variety of authors and as they are writing their own appeals and whatever the subject matter they will learn how to write to persuade an author or or Their audience so that's what unit two of the advanced placement um
232AP English and language composition States space Mr McManus I have no more questions Mr crabill Mr Bradford just one more I'm really disturbed by the process I really am and it made its way into the classroom without yes it is yeah it is so let me start over I'm really disturbed by the process of how this book came into the district it made its way into the classroom by um an interesting way and it surprises me that there is not it's not it this book is not in a social studies class so it's not in a social justice class no one's saying that you know we don't want to teach about race we don't want to teach about these issues we're this is just in an English language and speech class so my question to
233you is is it taught anywhere else in the district in a social studies class A History Class A social justice class any other class I honestly could not answer that I don't know I haven't we haven't asked we don't ask the teachers to submit to us every single book that they use as supplementary resources so I don't have lists that have been used you know from every year as far as what resources they use so I honestly I couldn't tell you Ms Walker thank you Miss Barnhart uh I will go back well does anybody have an additional questions if not uh first I want to um thank thing I want to thank both Miss Gates Miss Brinson and Dr Faust for the information that you have shared you have done a commendable job in advocating
234for your position before we deliberate and reach a decision which we will do in Open Session I would like for the board to go into closed session do I hear a motion to go in a closed session pursuant of North Carolina General statute 143 318 11 A1 and A3 to consult with the board attorney in order to preserve the attorney-client privilege Summit we have a motion do we have a second second we have a first and second is there any question obviously is there any deliberation if not all in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye all opposed we are 7-0 we are on closed session please stop on the way if you need to support I'm sorry so you're not allowed to come up right there all right foreign through Milwaukee one two
235three four five six seven welcome back we are back in Open Session I do have a couple things I need to read before we go further um we are back in Open session we will deliberate in just a moment I would like to review the legal standard one more time and uh both parties uh assuming everyone is uh reminded that the um whether we need to focus on whether it's educationally unsuitable pervasively vulgar or inappropriate to the age maturity or grade level of students so that is our task at this time to begin deliberations I will be asking for a motion in a minute in accordance with the reconsideration procedures for instructional materials that previously developed to implement policy 3210 I seek a motion to and here are our choices again one retain the book
236or two remove the book from New Hanover County Schools entirely or three remove the book to another grade level and the motion should State what grade level elementary school or middle school or restrict the the books availability the motion should specifically State how the books availability should be restricted such as but this is not a suggestion but such as whether it should be restricted to be used for from being used excuse me from being used for AP English Language and Composition at Eugene Ashley High School I would need a motion at this I make a motion to obtain uphold the superintendent's decision we have a motion here second Mr chairman thank you Mr chairman that we temporarily remove the book in question from the curriculum of the New Hanover County School District you'd have restricting
237retaining it the book in question and the high school libraries restricting it however to the history section of the libraries available in the opinion the section until such time as we can uphold update our policies um to allow a balanced book back into this class Mr chair I made the motion first and it was seconded by Ms Walker okay I did not recognize that I recognize her motion I think she were looking right at me Mr wildebear and I said it first play it back then let's do it again all right again we're going to carry on again I am standing as chairman um we have a first rule here all right we have first we have a second second first and second we will now deliberate we will start in going in the same
238order Miss Mason do you oh absolutely okay we'll read it again make sure I have it right [Music] we retain the book in question in our high school libraries restricting it not from the History Section keeping it out of the History Section available in the opinion section but we do this temporarily until we update our policies and we can um agree as a board in a vote on a balanced book to be added to the class point of order Mr chair yes ma'am she did not say whether it was educationally unsuitable pervasively vulgar or inappropriate to age maturity and grade level of students as a basis for her motion she needs to do that she also didn't repeated the exact same way the second time well let's say it a third time then please no
239I mean I didn't hear those words okay so she has a point of order um do you feel then it is uh which of these three do you feel it is Miss Bradford is it uh educationally unsuitable there it is sorry uh pervasively vulgar or inappropriate to the age maturity or grade level of students motion and put that into it yes sir yes sir the the motion as to what action the board decides to take or not take depending on whether the motion passes does not have to include the rationale for for the motion as to you know one of the total standings um ultimately the board's decision of course needs to follow the legal standards but the the motion for Action does not have to include it I think it should the motion for
240Action is part of the deliberation process is that what you're saying you've made them you've made a motion for action um if it's been seconded and that will kick off the deliberation process today we need to be very clear on what she just said all right guys we didn't we didn't stop calling out first off would you please re restate your motion one more time in question from the curriculum of the New Hanover County School District and we retain the book in question in the high school libraries however restricting it in the libraries of the high schools and in the opinion section versus the History Section and we do this until we can update our policies to create a balanced book to be added to the program of the AP class question we have a
241first and a second uh we're going to go we're going to write down the order again so we'll start with Miss uh Mason on evidence based on the fact that this book has not been vetted for very long I I do not see that it is suitable for um academic use at all yeah Mr McManus I'm still confused that I listened to everything that was said I even turned up my hearing aid that was not one of our options Ms Bradford our options were three received from the board attorney many times what our options based on our policy now after all this is over we'll see what maybe comes from the diocese but I don't believe correct me that is not one of the options that you have given us it's not in our okay
242my view is that it does fall under the option that the board has given itself within its procedures for this type of proceeding specifically it falls under the option to restrict the book's availability Ms Bradford's motion describes a way in which the availability of the book would be restricted she provides different components to that and that's that's her choice on emotion for the board to consider as I understand this so we're going to the motion is to temporarily remove stamped from the high school libraries Sumi High School curriculum should I get it right until the day where a policy but we retain it in the library until we can update the processes with an uh an alternate not alternate but a another book that would balance this which is what we have heard in policy
2433200 actually talks about my thoughts um yes sir would you please explain I'm a man but that's okay today I'm a man um would you please explain um to the folks in the audience and and reiterate to us what the procedure we're going to be using to deliberate again each person yes I will absolutely each person will have an opportunity to speak uh and we will continue to speak yes I was supposed to do that I apologize to do that uh we're going to continue we're going to open uh Robert's Rules actually say it says that we each have two opportunities uh to speak but because of the importance of this topic we're going to allow folks to speak uh as many times at my discretion I guess at this point uh to speak as
244many times as they would like to uh about this then eventually we will take a vote if the vote carries with A4 uh or five or six or seven votes then that will be the will of the board if it doesn't then we will get an additional motion that will be voted upon so uh thank you Miss crabill um but again so that my point uh here is so the we're going to continue we're going to update our processes until we policy sorry no yes can't read my own writing policies until we can come up with an alternative book is that my motion said until a balanced book is passed balance book okay Miss Graybill oh can I just clarify that I I was jotting down as fast as I could go but it said
245restricted to the opinion and to a policy I'm just making sure you can hear me because it the um that until the policy can be changed I didn't hear the part about until a balanced book okay okay and then and the policy give me change is that right Miss Bradford oh that wasn't my question that was just a point point of order okay so my first my first comment is I would like to know which of the three that I'm gonna say I don't this motion does not address the educational unsuitability and does not address pervasive vulgarity and inappropriate for age level and maturity and what I would like to say on that is there is no pervasive vulgarity I think we're all probably in agreement with that the inappropriate for age maturity grade level
246the just by putting it in the library in the opinion section does not address the age and maturity and grade level um at all we've already established through Miss brinson's report that the Lexile is not key in this AP class selection and the educational unsuitability I would like to know from all of my fellow board members just what is educationally unsuitable about this book okay Carry On Ms Bradford I find that the book stamp is educationally unsuitable for the AP English language composition class in multiple areas one on the required reading book a cried required reading book list or in the course syllabus there is no there's no opposing opinion facts um or are in dispute or balance the material is not education the material is educationally unsuitable because it does not present a balanced
247Viewpoint of the subject matter I believe it violates the policy 3200 requiring materials to be accurate unbiased and well balanced it's accurate in the denial of the enough that the anonymous body called the mtac made based on the stated opinion that an argument cannot alone be well balanced to the contrary a balanced argument is one that considers multiple points of view and multiple sources of information it relies on credible facts and logic and still fully supports an opinion a persuasive argument essay aims to convince readers to agree with your point of view or take a specific action to do this you need a balanced evidence an emotion in your writing evidence refers to to facts data and logic that supports your claims the key to balancing arguments is to present both sides of the argument
248providing evidences for both even if you're choosing to argue one way or the other doing this successfully shows that your argument is not biased and it's a great way to lend credibility to your argument I agree with the parents assertation that the course material should line up with the New Hanover County School District policies other books exist that do line up with the policy that contain good rhetoric for study it should be both and the book that we choose should both meet the district policy and the state or college board standards the College Board materials in our package States so the AP stands for unflinching encounters with evidence allowing students to draw their own conclusions evidence and science-based method that means not opinion should include different perspectives add credible sources the syllables or the class
249says material will be non-fiction now this is somewhere that I have some expertise I'm a subject matter expert fiction is made up stuff non-fiction is truth based on fact I also find that the material is educationally unsuitable due to the factual and accuracy of historical events and people in multiple incidences it's misleading students into thinking that that was a fully factual document when it's not and um I'm going to skip down here um we've we talked a great deal about whether it's a history book or it's not a history book but here's the thing in the in the question and answers that the author said he said this is a history book so I don't think we can really refute that at this point and he said the young readers will be excited to read
250this history book Cirrus books this is a serious book about the nation's history he referenced history in his interview with the Port City Daily 12 or 13 times so even the promotional marketing cites history so we can't ignore that and I I've got all these but here's the thing what does the reader believe to be true there's demonstratable confusion is this a work of fiction or is it a factual non-fiction book or is it just editorial opinion let's consider in the past five months this book has been widely discussed throughout the county and debated in the community and of the 1500 to 2000 emails calls or text messages I have received they have said please continue to teach the racism please continue to teach our history please don't take our history from us not one
251of those emails calls or requests said please continue to teach students how to critically analyze speech and composition not one Mr McManus referred to it as history on the Deus Miss Walker referred to it as history on the Deus there's confusion half of you think or most of you think this is history we want to teach history we want to teach we want to teach racism we want to teach it but this is supposed to be about speech and composition um we're we're we're we're we're we're mixing things and it shouldn't be um the suggested text ranges for College and Career Readiness for the fourth grade is the on the L standard is 9 9 40. I don't believe this book is not age or grade appropriate for the AP college level course in my
252opinion and I have documents for that we've already heard them about the L rate it's not all of it the promotional materials suggest that they adapted the book to Market it for 12 and up it's not age or grade appropriate for this course in this level and even the promotional material Educators guide States it's from middle school and high school it's not for a college level AP class thank you all right guys um I have a question like this is pre-prepared did did get legal advice from our Council for that that's motion is very exact ly I feel like that was completely read off so I just want to know I mean I've come you know I've been accused of being biased but I came just ask questions and you know read my folder but
253I just would like to know that okay we're going to continue um well she's not her time speaks um Mr Bradford I mean Ms Barnhart excuse me apologize thank you Mr Wildomar upon reviewing the evidence from both sides the only grounds to remove a book from the school library or School curriculum are the three that were repeated upon inspection of our policy the issue that I take with this concept and I've I've discussed that there's been loopholes in the policy process I believe that our students and our staff should have the ability to discuss complex controversial conversations and I started this off by saying absolutely we expect and have a criteria for our staff I've said this before but I've been concerned of clearly defining what that looks like as well as understanding where where
254we start as a district looking and reviewing the AP core standards as a district 54 percent of our students are the ones who pass the AP exam with a three four and five and only 28 pass with a four or five it is our job Port our staff and our lift that data and supporting our staff and students what becomes the question of criteria is and here is one of the loopholes this is a English class so it is not about the content so regardless of my own personal feelings of whether I like the content or not it is about the context of in the classroom and how they're utilizing it with that being said this is an acknowledgment that this is a very one-sided document when you are developing curriculum I think it's important
255to ensure that you have a well-rounded curriculum and when you're doing that it's not a dig at one thing or the other but what we have to ensure is that when we're looking through the lens of academic curriculum development that we have both sides that potentially we have the opportunity of choice and the curriculum for the students meaning Miss Gates's daughter was isolated in this process because she just wanted a choice um and I think that's something that as far as the process is and procedures that New Hanover County can look at we can be proactive in this approach and I think that this is something that we can consider so the idea and concept of Us coming together to help clearly give direction to the district I don't think is anything to be scared
256of I think it's something that we can come together because we do have a lot of similar thought process of what our expectations are and I think it's our due diligence to do that so that we don't come before hearing after hearing after hearing and have contention in our community and so that's what I would like to see happen and I this is why I I did not remove it from the school because I cannot meet those legal grounds in my opinion respectfully to you Miss gates to allow that to happen so I believe that this is a compromise with the intent of being intentional about our expectation and before we go around for the next round I do want to it was brought to my attention that in the motion we did say we
257were going to move the book to the opinion section of the library and there is no opinion sectional Library so um we do need to maybe amend that yes please that's interesting because opinion always has to be on an opinion paid to be clearly marker's opinion so that's interesting that we don't have an opinion section that surprises me Mr chair you calling for a motion to amend yes I am okay do you have a motion oh [Music] no you cannot call out please thank you again motion was originally made here and she's going to amend the motion thank you excuse me ma'am that's enough again please there's no calling out from the audience thank you very much so Mr chairman you're requesting that I'm mend emotion so in doing that I will amend it to
258delete the last part of what I wrote um well the mid the next to the last part um that it it it's it will be retained in the high school libraries until we update our policies and the rest of it Remains the Same so I'll take out that the retain stays the same the book in question and the high school libraries would you read the whole thing in first place okay I move that we temporarily restrict a I believe that we I move that we remove the book in question from the curriculum in the new Hunter County School District and we retain the book in question in the high school libraries until we update our policies to allow a balanced book to be added back to the AP course syllabus that motion to a man
259needs a second give me a second please first and second we will carry on with our discussion uh Ms Mason professional opinion and based on my graduate degree in education my master's degree and based on my years of experience within Elementary classrooms as well as excuse me Collegiate classrooms I do not find this book to be suitable in an educational institution I believe that we need to teach this but I believe that we have better options more vetted options that we can use instead and that I believe would be the right decision it's Mason Mr McManus uh Mr Vogel my address the attorney Mr Vogel did you have any part in What Miss Bradford read that's a yes or no question sir I was just asking the chair whether he wanted me to respond the
260answer is no what's your answer he said no he said thank you um I have no questions MS crabill yeah so in in the Miss Bradford has said you know in this meeting I want to follow the trail to how this book made it to AP Lang I don't think it's appropriate to be in an AP Lang class but I think it is appropriate to be in a history class and in the history section of our library so how can the book If you don't like the content which you've already said the quality of the writing is poor especially to present good rhetoric you've given your opinion on the content multiple times and I'm just trying to figure out your real reason for not wanting this book we are we are being held to our
261viewpoint on the book cannot be used and so I am concerned that following the trail it's in our it's in our district and it was approved for use and if it's if it's not good enough for AP Lang then why is it good enough for history um and if you're saying the book Lexile level is too low for high school then why didn't you just relegate it down to middle school so that only the middle school kids get a chance to critically think um I'm just having a real hard time with that and it happens that she speaks next so Ms Bradford I'm going to make a question of privilege I feel like I'm under attack here on the Deus and I do not appreciate my fellow board members attacking me I will take my
262time for discussion and I will answer your questions thank you appreciate it I am a writer I am a researcher I am a fact Checker and I'm an editor I do it for a living and I've done it for 25 years and I have won awards for that so I am a subject matter expert period end of sentence now Mr McManus you asked me about the attorney we got a memo on 8 27 2023 at 901 PM from Farrington Smith and he outlined the state and state board education guidelines over books and it says educationally unsuitable pervasively vulgar inappropriate to the age maturity or grade level of the students that was long before Mr Vogel was our board attorney I was up until almost three reading this manual because thankfully I did because you guys
263didn't go Page by page and I had already read all the pages so that part was really good and I wrote down because I am a writer and researcher and fact Checker I checked some facts and I wrote my opinion in both directions depending on what I heard here to add to what I had already read in this entire manual which I read yesterday and last night so I feel like I have answered your question it's now to the deliberation of the things that I said I am a subject matter expert in speech and composition I have trained and taught many writers many students have gone on to work for magazines like Time magazine in Asia so I understand this course is supposed and I took speech courses analysis of speech courses in college so
264I understand how you and analyze a book for the didactic and the other speech qualities of it and I find it educationally unsuitable for this AP class but are you an educator uh at this point we're going to have to start removing people because I'm we're not going to have people falling out so if you cannot remain quiet it's time for you to go and Mr chair I would point out that I have a bachelor's degree in Communications and a Bachelor's of Science in teaching Communications and yes I have been an educator Ms Walker thank you Mr chair well you know since we're talking about degrees you know I have one too um and I'm also a parent that's my biggest qualification and I'm telling you I feel like you know a lot of folks
265up here ran on parental rights and honestly you're taking the rights away from so many parents in this District to choose what their children need based on one parent and based on our own kind of opinions but I will say this I've said it before and it Bears repeating that we all took a note to the Constitution the Supreme Court case that we keep referencing Island schools district versus Pico states that first amendment limits the power of school officials to remove books based on their content and that the right to read is implied by the First Amendment the government AKA School boards cannot restrict speech because it does not agree with the content of that speech in this case Miss gates in her own words has no problem with how the book aligns with the
266curriculum nor does she state that she has a problem with how the book aligns with ap Lang and comp course description or NC standard course of study or rhetoric she simply objects to the ideas presented in the manner in tone presented she claims their Marxist communist anti-American against the founding fathers against the Bible Etc whether Miss Gates likes it or not African-American history is American history and therefore you must be open to view points from all Americans it's totally fine to disagree and debate the various topics and ideas in this book we have not the right right to remove black history from our classes as of strongly and categorically stated before I am absolutely against removal or Banning of this book a restriction of this book in any way shape or form whether it's from
267the classroom the library or the entire district and we must support our staff and their professionalism and autonomy in what they do in their job I find it does not meet the standards of removal based on any of the three criteria given and is not the charge of this small group or one parent to decide the Fate for tens of thousands of students and parents that's not our job why not as I've stated before looking through our own policies and the quality review checklist I believe that our curriculum and criteria of how we give advice to our teachers of what the expectation is looks different than a library selection this book seemingly under circumvented the process because of the library selection that is not our intent as a district to circumvent and to pretend something
268the submission from the AP syllabus does not have this book excluded some would argue could make the case of this is by adding this book could it be under AP credentials for review because it wasn't on the list of submission to the AP college board which was submitted and approved by them so while I I understand the frustration part of it is the is the expectation on our end do we not care that this child was isolated for over a month of classroom time do we not care that when when we're looking through how we develop curriculum and expectation for our staff what the standards should be do we want our students to have some ownership of what they want to learn about these are the things in the conversation as it comes to procedures
269and protocols in our policy that we have the opportunity to help expand on so to have a temporary to have a temporary restriction allows us for us to come together to help give those expectations the reality is looking at this from yeah from a legal standpoint there is something to be said that how can we analyze and have this conversation analyzing in the way that you may agree with the author analyzing and the way that you disagree with the author and also comparing it to other sources of how they either line up or don't line up this is not an easy conversation this is not a one and done conversation when you talk about racism and when you talk about perspectives and when you talk about diversity it's not however we have to be cognizant
270that when we have these conversations it needs to be in an unbiased way that we can openly fear from everybody and not just whatever Viewpoint we have and that is what I'm getting at when it comes to our processes when we're looking at what we can do better and I support this motion okay we'll go on to our next uh round Miss Mason your time to the point of parental rights absolutely I believe parents have the right to choose what their kids are reading and making a motion to remove it from our schools doesn't remove it from the library the public library it doesn't remove it from Amazon it doesn't remove it from Walmart it doesn't remove it from the book shelves out in the public it removes it from the school bookshelf so I
271just wanted to emphasize that parents still have access to that book if they if you want your child to read it by all means have them read it I think that this topic is absolutely an imperative for our students to learn I agree with Miss Gates I did not learn all of the things that I needed to learn until I became an adult and even now I'm still learning I think it's important to discuss racism I think it's important to discuss the ugly history that Wilmington has I think it's important this is not about the topic this is about the suitability of this book there are better books in this world there are thousands upon thousands of books with this Viewpoint with this topic that we can use instead of this this book has not
272been around very long it has not been vetted it's I know Lexile is not the key component but I believe it should be a pretty important one when you're dealing with an AP English class I cannot support keeping it in at all Mr McManus well I don't know which one to do to talk about or ask more questions or um what what what biases we all have what we ran on well we've said before if you want to stop anything this is what you need to be stopping because the accessibility of everything in the world that's unsuitable to many people is on his phone and if you don't think the kids don't pay as much attention to this they do academics in a class and you had been in the real world but that's another
273discussion this book is unsuitable to those who do not like what the book is about or what it represents or what it doesn't everyone has a an understanding their own our kids those who don't read do not learn our AP kids hopefully will be the Future Leaders of our country maybe our state everyone needs to know how other people feel whether you agree or not that's up to you and that was clearly stated in that AP syllabus it is a controversial lover class it is a college taught class so therefore we need to treat it as a college level student it is not unsuitable she had an alternative immediately assignment she was told that she could leave the classroom at any time and to work on her other to get out of the discussion was
274served I support that but to ban this book when I know we have another parent that you have spoken vividly about that's going to bring about 30 more books after this for us to look at Banning you want to you're making a face Josie do you want to say that's not going to happen that's a yes or no question Mr McManus okay well you yeah you do so in a lot I don't know if I want to talk about my background and what I award boards I've received I won't go there um it's not it's not unsuitable for an AP class thank you Mr McMahon all right a couple things um you know I think we go back to our policy and our policy is 3200 I think that it says very clearly the curriculum
275right I wrote this down so I had it uh 3200 says very clearly must be chosen to represent various points of view on controversial issues obviously this is a controversial issue you know this book in itself without any kind of balance um is in violation of that policy so in my mind it is an educationally unsuitable for all those folks you know and like I say I'm all about reading I love reading um I would encourage you know the the motion we have in front of us actually would have students read an extra book so I don't see you know let's let him read I agree let's let's let them read let him read the second book they would balance that and then get us in in line with policy 3200 that it uh you're
276supposed to have various viewpoints uh on controversial issues um I don't know that I in this class you know I asked that question before that's why I asked that question was I don't know in this class you know maybe in the school as a whole there's balance which is great but do we have that balance in this classroom um and I I don't see him a couple things were mentioned uh you know and I do go back you know we have a whole EDI uh Mr McMahon's mentioned that before the whole EDI uh Department very important that I of that EDI is inclusion and I I just as a and I'm not going to go through what I was former in all my Awards or anything like that but you know bottom line is sending
277a child to the library for a month I don't know that that's that's being inclusive are we bringing that child in you know I ask repeatedly is there a face-to-face time is that teacher making some way to have face-to-face time with that child so that that child that student excuse me that student is getting an education or are they just being sent to the library and the answer was well we don't know but um at the end of the day that's that's a imperative that's a very important thing to me because you know why don't we just send you know we saw how great at home learning was and how and I say that facetiously it was not great but we so we don't want that we want teachers are extremely important they're vital uh
278we both they need to be in face to face you know uh I know that homebound students get you know just a few hours a week of that time and you know that's that's you know very concerning to me but at the end of the day uh you know we need to teach our students we need to come up with a way to be able to teach our students if that is giving a balance to that class so that students maybe we could you know and I'm not telling a teacher what to do but yeah maybe there's another another way you can compromise where you have one group works on one book one work you know workbook you know one group works on the second book and they come together and they can discuss and
279debate and do do some of those great one wonderful things that teachers do do instead of just saying well we're just going to do this one book and that's the only one so that's my thoughts on that um we'll carry on to miss crabill okay or with I think that we are quoting um misquoting policy 3200 out of context that um you did ask the question about the balance and the answer is there the answer was the um from both both parties is that there is not usually one book that presents both sides so to not pick a book because it doesn't present both sides of an argument an argument I think is not being educationally responsible we are to provide a wide range of materials that enrich and support the curriculum taking into consideration
280the individual needs and varied interests abilities socioeconomic backgrounds learning styles and developmental levels of the students served to provide materials that will stimulate growth in factual knowledge literary apprecion appreciation ascetic values and ethical standards to provide a background of information that enables students to comprehend their role as Citizens in society and to make intelligent judgments in their daily lives to provide resources representing various points of view on controversial subjects so that students as young citizens May develop under Guidance the skills of critical thinking and critical analysis to provide resources representative of The Many religious ethnic and cultural groups in our nation and the contribution of these groups to our American heritage to place principle above personal opinion and reason above prejudiced in this selection of material of the highest quality in order to ensure a
281comprehensive collection for all users so that is what it says in policy 3200 section B item number one a through f I think it's unfair for us to make a judgment on this book consider this material consideration and change the rules as we're going we already had 3200 in place and this should be considered under the rules that we had in place at the time so it is unfair to change the rules and to ban this book because ban equals remove and so we have said we've already said several times on this dice oh no we don't want to ban books but yet we're saying the word we want to remove it I do want to say that I believe that our board is making disingenuous reasons to remove this book from our curriculum CRT
282is a national and state topic of contention and to have our students not even listen to racial incidents and racial issues is not doing them it's not doing them Justice our boards and our the I attended an SEL seminar that was that was supposed to have been hosted by our um our attorney but he didn't come and they had somebody else come so I'm hoping that the the um the direction switched when he didn't show up but it they they were talking about ways to get around social emotional learning and suggested that the way to get around that is for boards no there's not a point of order I have an opinion just like everybody else we have a point of order that takes precedence I'm getting there I'm getting there where it says that
283the board writes curriculum and lesson plans with parents and so we're getting we're we're judging our teachers and saying that we don't believe that the education that you have supersedes the education that we have in developing curriculum and also just to be clear there is rhetoric out in the community that says good luck to any Republican board member who votes to keep stamped and buck Republican values I think we're being disingenuous if we're not going to address that last month about two weeks ago we had the four C's in this County and we took the Elementary and Middle School curriculum Dr Faison did and we put it on display for parents stakeholders students to come in and review the materials I reviewed the social studies materials I had already reviewed them online but I like
284to hold a book I'm one of those readers that I want to hold whatever I'm looking at and I had reviewed online so if you have not done that yet I strongly urge you to do it we have an excellent social studies and history curriculum that teaches everything that happened in Wilmington it it it it it's just uh it's excellent I am very proud of that um our social studies curriculum is already strong it can get stronger of course but you should read that you should either go online or go down to the school and ask for the curriculum and Page through it yourself we have the confusion here of History versus something that we're going to study for speech and composition and just a few minutes ago one of my fellow board members said
285we can't remove black history from our classes that argument is not valid in this setting no one's asking to remove black history from our classes we have a excellent social studies black history curriculum go and look at it it's excellent but we can only control what's in our schools now if parents want to check out the book from the library go for it if they want to buy it on Amazon go for it if they want to use their cell phone and look at it go for it we are tasked with what is happening in the curriculum in our schools that's our job description up here and I find that this book is educationally unsuitable for this AP English language composition class in multiple areas thank you Miss Walker thank you Mr chair um I
286just want to make one point I think the misconception is that that Miss cage style was sequestered away I think that was a choice so I want to go and put that out there let's not blame the teacher for that part of it but I want to say you know we talked about bias I think we should all check our own first too before we down on the book that we don't necessarily agree with also public schools are public goods so it is very important what we do if we're responsible here for that and the more um you know it's more than about what this book honestly I mean the only reason that we are actually talking about this book is because there's a national movement afoot in this country to push back on history
287from different perspectives um and so unless they'll say you know to the point of a fellow board member made about removing or restricting the book how about we don't do that in half the discussion we don't have to remove it first before we discuss it so I'm all for not removing it and then we can have a discussion not the other way around thank you and Miss Barnhart I say we vote the motion to to vote we hear a second yes sir well no well Mr chair with the the motion on the table is the motion to amend Miss Bradford's motion it was the motion to remove the the language opinion section only with respect to the library the motion on the table currently is the is the motion to amend the primary motion and
288so the the motion on the table is to remove the words opinion section only with promotion and a second to do that there already was emotionless discussion so you could vote on the motion to amend point of order Mr chair yes I um I feel like did we just suspend the rules of so we could all keep speaking until we were done I didn't know if that was I just wanted to check with you if that was still valid and if we're forcing a vote well we're just voting the only thing we're voting on is to change the amendment uh to amend is that what Miss Martin asked for no because I think she just said right but that was just a comment I don't think she was over but there is in Robert's Rules
289we did suspend a number of uh conversations but we did also there was also Mr Vogel would you remind me there is a I'm just saying that there's uh the motion on the table is Miss Bradford's motion to amend her primary motion so the only motion on the table right now is to remove the words opinion section only from her primary motion that's all I make a motion to reject that motion well every single meeting so let's just go ahead and throw it out I'll second so anyway so Mr chair I I recommend that you call for a vote on the motion to amend in other words to remove the words opinion section only what about rejecting the motion apparently we're allowed to just interject at any time and say that and we don't have
290to debate it and we don't have to do anything so it's happened to me twice so I'm injecting I'm I'm invoking that we're going to go ahead and take Mr vogel's recommendation and vote on the uh motion to amend Miss uh Bowie would you please call the roll Miss Mason to take those words out of her motion no I'm not voting for anything that has to do with removing the book okay Miss Bradford yes Miss Walker no and Miss Barnhart yes passes five to two we can carry on our conversation unless there is a motion what right so right discussion ensues on the primary motion that Ms Bradford made without the words opinion section only that's now been removed right okay so we're back to miss Mason and just I want to clarify that the
291rest of the Parliamentary emotions do stand so we can like for instance if someone said that they wanted to move the previous question I'm not saying we should do that but I'm saying that that just because we continue this conversation somebody can't do that I reject that motion the second rejection we have we have a motion to I guess move the previous questions exactly the right way to say that is there a second okay we have a first and a second I have a point of order I'd like for the attorney to weigh in on the rejection of the motion Mr Vogel would you yes um Miss crabill's motion objecting to the consideration of the question can be made and can be made by interrupting and it requires a two-thirds vote two-thirds vote okay does
292it need a second no it's not in a second okay so uh this boat the vote now is to reject this motion uh Miss Bowie would you please call the roll Miss Mason yes Mr McManus yes to reject Mr wild boar no Miss crabill y yes I want to reject the motion that's on the floor okay Miss Bradford no Miss Walker yes and Miss Barnhart no okay well that two-thirds one two three four one two three so I didn't need five so we have Miss Mason said yes Mr McManus said yes Miss crabill said yes and Miss Walker said yes so that does not pass correct that's correct so the motion's still on the floor to to call the question well a question okay so we have a motion to call the question um just
293not interrupt second yes we have that and this again also will take two-thirds to move the previous question so this is to this is not to vote on whether or not to accept it is to move it uh no okay so again this is this is to move the previous question then we would vote on the question this is just the end our discussion Miss Mason oh so I'm sorry you that's your job Miss Mason about to to vote on me right this isn't to go ahead vote to discontinue discussion right no Mr McManus I got one more thing to say here Mr wildebear yes Miss crabill no Miss Bradford yes Miss Walker no and Miss Barnhart yes so that also does not pass so we are not moving the previous question we can continue
294our debate um and I believe that is Miss Mason up to for this discussion on debate I would like to make an amendment to the motion um instead of temporary removal it's actually permanent removal from all curricula and libraries within the district due to its educational and suitability so let me show you correctly removal from both the classrooms and the library yes sir okay is there a second hearing none we will carry on Mr McManus oh actually at this point we need now we have this demotion problems I'm making sure we still have that motion in front of us Mr McManus you said no and I'm also going to pass on my term Ms Graybill yeah I want to refute something that Ms Bradford said um about um I don't dispute the fact that we've
295gotten 1500 emails I didn't count but we have gotten a boatload into um if you can quantify that but she said not one email said that we want our kids to be thinking critically and I'm looking at about five people in the audience who said that that they want their child to have the opportunity to read what to read a broad variety of information and to learn how to think critically and so I just have to go on record of saying that that is not a true statement and then I would like to amend the motion to keep the book in the curriculum and not make uphold the the decision of the superintendent until such time as policies can be reviewed I'll second that first and second I need to write down give me one
296more chance can you say that again please to uphold the decision of the superintendent until such time as policies changes might dictate otherwise would you consider amending to say once we update the policies to submit this for approval tell me what you've asked me to do I don't think I understand that I'm if we are going to uphold the superintendent's decision and we're going to update the policy once they're updated will you add it to your motion to submit this book through approval make sure it's through approved to the channels once updated I could consider that but we don't have another Channel I mean what what channel are you recommending that they reconvene the district level committee and have the superintendent re-revaluate no I don't think we need to do that I think we should
297uphold his decision and then um and then this board will have to take it upon themselves to say we don't want this book we're going to ban this book and then we go from there okay we have a motion and so my motion is to allow to uphold the decision of the superintendent until the policy can be updated um until such time as the policies can be reviewed dude and we have a first and a second is there another discussion on that going through the order Miss Mason Mr McManus I have nothing Miss crabill you've already spoken uh Miss Bradford I would like to correct something I actually said that no call email or text said to me please keep this so that we can um for for the for the reasons for speech and
298and English composition that's what I said so I correct the record on that all right um to um Miss grable's motion I agree I feel like we should uphold the district's decision and the superintendent's decision until such time is I mean this is an amendment to the original so I'm saying I would rather not remove it while we review so I agree with that I think that we don't need to remember I mean because we don't even know who's looking at it right now who's who's using it and um I'd rather not just make a decision like that it's going to affect people you know right this minute so I'd rather just keep it there where it is and then um we'll review and discuss later okay and this just to let everyone know this
299will take a majority instead of a uh two-thirds vote is there another discussion why is that because we're amending the motion to amend a motion okay that's correct right I want to make sure I'm right I can just as I read it it says post to amend the motion so miss crabill's uh amended motion again is to uphold the decision superintendent until the policies can be reviewed Miss Mason how do you vote now now Mr McManus yes I'm sorry I'm doing your job again I apologize yeah I'll just keep going I guess this time I vote no Ms crabill yes Miss Bradford no Ms Walker yes and Miss Barnhart no best fitted four to three go back to the original motion for further discussion we are on Miss Bradford I would love to see this
300vote because one of us has to go and she's got kids waiting so I would love to see us just go ahead you're calling the question I is not a reason to disband this meeting because somebody has to go you're not you're out of order right now I'm just saying that because we will have four people here a question to close debate I misspoke before it requires a second that is okay okay Miss Walker no no I mean it's your turn to speak thank you no I just I was just gonna say I believe I did second that before no uh I mean I think we're going to talk this to death but obviously we know how you feel about this and um I'm not in favor of any restriction or removal I don't think
301there's anything wrong with the with the book I think it's actually I enjoyed the book I felt like it caused me to think a lot more and I feel like it's going to do the same for our students and so I I I I don't know any way I can support any kind of restriction I trust our staff in our Professionals in our district and our superintendent to make these decisions so I don't think it's my job or our job at all to decide what other parents can and can't or the kids can't read um books-wise so PornHub nope Miss Mason I'd like to call the question call the previous question make a motion leave me a question okay we have a first second we have a first and a second um again this is
302for the uh primary motion it would be a two-thirds vote to to close debate right right right okay uh Miss Bowie I'm sorry chew Miss Mason yes McManus close to be close Mr Wilborn yes Mr crabill no Miss Bradford yes Miss Walker no and Miss Barnhart yes two three four right correct though continue to speak this person to speak to talk will be Mr McManus do you have anything uh I think we need to vote on whether to ban the book amen we're all over the place I think one board member made a statement the other day not really not anticipated that we're going to have a split vote and I don't know how we're gonna change anything so are you calling the question sir no well I was questioning excuse me I'm not calling
303a question Oh I thought okay I'll sit here until the cows come home I'll go ahead and call the question then I'll go ahead and call the question is there a second second we have a first and second um we'll keep trying again this is only to bring as you just said to a vote Miss uh go ahead please miss Mason McManus Mr World War yes Scrabble no Miss Bradford Miss Walker no and Miss Barnhart yes I just want to remind the board that if we vote on it and it doesn't pass then we can get it done their motion but if we just continue not to vote on this motion that we will just keep going around and around so if we vote on it and it doesn't pass then we can get a
304new Motion in front of us but that's only a reminder um I believe we back up to [Music] um with machine we're back uh we are back to the original motion and Miss Mason do you have anything I was the last one to talk that's right so it's Miss crabill huge disservice to our students if we take this book out in any way shape or form I think we are doing a huge disservice to our Educators and not valuing their professional expertise in helping to guide our students into being 21st century thinkers and lifelong learners and I think we're doing a disservice to our community that our children are not going to be allowed to hear unbalanced material that doesn't exist in one book and I think that we are setting ourselves up for a
305First Amendment lawsuit because there is no educational unsuitability reason to stop to not use this book okay Miss Bradford are you you said you were right about you are you following the question in I'm not calling any question I'm just telling you I wanted to say one thing okay somebody else wants to it's fine Bradford yeah Miss Walker I just I Echo I've said it she said it we've said it so yeah I'm done Miss Barnhart it's Mason I think that we could go around and around and around all day and I don't think that any minds are going to change I move that we call the previous question okay we'll try that again Miss Bowie 's a second I'm sorry second first and second you're right yeah first and second Miss Bowie all right
306here we go Miss Mason yes Mr McManus Mr wilbore yes Miss crabill yes Miss Bradford yes Miss Walker yes and Miss Barnhart all right so again let's make sure we have it correct in front of us temporarily remove stamped from high school curriculum until we update our policy or review you say update a review make sure I get that right school district and retain the book in the high school libraries until we update our policies with the balance with the addition of a balanced book I'll put is out at the end but it's more grammatically correct to say okay Mr Vogel we good with that yes okay very good um we have a first and a second we've called the question Miss Bowie would you please call the roll Melissa Mason before we start we
307need a simple majority just make sure everybody's on the same page Melissa Mason yes Hugh McManus Pete wildeborg yes Stephanie crabill no Pat Bradford yes Stephanie Walker absolutely not and Josie Barnhart yes that passes four to three Melissa voted Jess you voted yes to that it's time we will uh that's the end of our business so we would entertain a motion to adjourn we have a second all in favor please signify by saying aye all opposed Pastor seven zero we are done