001good morning it is 10:35 I'm sorry we're starting a little late I got delayed and uh this is the meeting of the policy and instruction subcommittee for the East Adam Board of Education First on our list is Pledge of Allegiance Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all okay and the next thing on the agenda has to do with discipline reporting so yes okay please do so Jim and I had met and I had shared a document um that was created by Chris and his staff that had uh references and descriptions to minor and major offenses and Jim really was looking for more speci specificity um and so Chris is going to work
002with his staff to create something that provides that Clarity that you're looking for okay um and then even meet with you maybe before meeting with the committee so that you can continue to provide that input um so looking forward to that okay um and and that's good where are we with the Middle School in particular um being part of this Venture the elementary school too but um I would think the middle school is more of an issue um are are they did did Dr northcut just sign off on whatever you're doing has she been involved where are we so Raina is really looking to see it in action she's got different templates there definitely are differences between what happens what doesn't happen at each level and consistency with in um the level so she's such
003a strong team player that rather than just take what's there at face value really looking for the opportunity to implement and have the staff also be a part of that greater discussion um and so we won't be um disconnected what happens at the middle level it makes sense that we're consistent at the high school level for the benefit of the students all the staff so that is what we're looking to do but she just hasn't been here long enough to really um have a full perspective and she's asking to have that full perspective which I thought made sense yeah that's um fine with me um would it be acceptable if I were to meet with her and just get her ideas on what she's thinking about yeah I think we're all going to do that
004at once you know she has been there to see what the current practice is I I think that makes absolute sense um yeah for sure I I would agree let's let's let her get her uh SE legs and and follow up with her after um any questions or concerns from those who are remoting in no not at all totally agree let her get her feet wet and uh I have no doubt that it'll be good moving forward all right I'm the same I'm can okay I feel the same um you know let her and uh Bridget kind of get the school year going and see where they're at and what they've been doing and work on it from there sounds good to me okay as usual we're in agreement so we'll table that till next
005month month and um I may see if I can um meet with Dr northcut in the meantime um next thing on the agenda a meeting schedule for 24 and 25 um I had emailed everybody not you um I figured that was coming from Doc uh but I emailed everybody else um a proposed schedule are we okay with the proposals uh um any concerns what do we got folks uh from my standpoint I'll meet the proposed schedule I'm fine with the schedule Jackie um I'm fine with the schedule the one thing I didn't look at that I just thought of now but I'm sure you all did was to make sure that the dates coincide with the school calendar um early missile holiday teacher Workshop we'll do another we'll do another um run through on that
006for sure um but we were trying to be cognizant of um vacation weeks and things like that for sure uh that that's go ahead and early dismiss yeah early dismissal other than parent conferences are on Tuesdays so I don't I don't foresee uh a situation but we'll get another pair of eyes to to take a look um to make sure that there aren't conflicts but thank you for that okay um one caveat myself um my wife and I are scheduled to be in New York City at some point in September I don't even know if I know the dates yet um to meet my uh son's future in-laws he's getting married congratulations um thank you um and either I'd have to have someone else run the meeting in my absence uh which depending on what's
007going on might be an option or um I might ask to reschedule that one meeting with you folks but other than that um I'm okay with what we've got so we'll say that that's the schedule for now and I'll find out from the social director what's going on in September all right policy 1330 um which is the um school and Facilities use again um for the um people on the committee I me I mailed out a very detailed description of the changes that um had been suggested by Cindy and Don I think I may may have in my English teacher fashion gone through and and added some minor stuff since then I don't even I think I did but um nothing too Earth shattering um but where are with this or are we okay with
008it do the the hope is that we come to an agreement of some kind because the plan is to have this go before the full board Wednesday night so and if we you know if we can't we can't that's fine but um I'd love to be able to kind of put this one to bed I me personally I've reviewed all the you know added uh changes from even even the you know prior changes and I I feel very good about it and we have to we have to you know set the fees and whatnot but annual but other than that I think this looks pretty great move forward I agree Jackie um I agree with what everybody else says um admitting that my limited knowledge of um rules and laws and and all of that
009um are limited but we've all looked at it Cindy's looked through it Don look through it I think we're in a great spot to move forward yeah all right um can I have a motion to move this to the full board so moved second second okay okay and any further discussion hearing none can I have a vote I I I that's four eyes Okay that one goes forward now the next one is the policy on dressing and grooming and um I'm glad we're getting to this finally because Jackie's been kind of patiently waiting for us to be able to get this on the docket and do something with it um this is uh pretty much exclusively her request as far as making changes um so I I'm I had asked her in advance and she's
010okay she's going to kind of take us through what she's think thinking about and then we'll have some discussion afterwards all right um unfortunately I don't have all of my prepared notes here with me um but I will do the best that I can um in the scope of what our district seems to be moving towards uh less punitive consequences more regena in practices um not being quite so um looking for like specific rules you know like having some Nuance I felt that some of the current specific rules just were kind of unneeded and also disproportionately affected certain students as opposed to all of the students um with that I love to pause and kind of hear what everybody has to say and start um Sean you want to start us off um I mean
011um I would say that I lean towards more of in I guess more what I say the conservative as how it was that I mean I am um you know not as I guess open to uh making them more open uh as far as you know I went makeup um I mean just so without going through each one or is that what we're looking to do here I'm just as far as the CES version I think is pretty much there I was kind of in line with how it was set so I mean that's kind of where I would like to leave it for myself are we focusing on like page 20 through2 we determine where we're yeah I mean my understanding is that we're looking at Jackie's changes um and I had put in
012here the initial policy as it currently stands and C's policy um right as recommend normal so we're we're kind of looking if I understand things correctly at Jackie's changes and um which are sorry me looking at it which are in the green on page 20 on page 20 yeah yeah on my phone it doesn't match up when I do that so when I when I'm looking at it on my phone okay so I'm just trying to yeah give myself a minute if anybody wants to pass through I Terry do you want comment sure sure sure sure I just had one question for Jackie um uh one of your comments earlier was that it disproportionately affects uh certain students could you elaborate a little bit more on that the ab current policy well do just codes
013in general disproportionately affect uh female students um specifically with what you know pink top strap length um they also disproportionately affect students of color uh bipac students and students of different cultures um I understand that we our district is not the most diverse however in the schement everything that we're trying to improve on in our district can you can you identify Jackie when you say um specifically about female students what here targets female students the halter tops but that's anybody nobody can wear um halter tops or half shirts half shirts um so I'm just gonna go back a little bit before coming back to this I apologize again I don't have everything printed out in front of me um for that um there are students I mean Styles change there are students wearing half shirts
014in the middle of high school B um my idea with making the district policy be more specific in the areas of being unsa you know showing depictions of drugs alcohol gangs Etc being a hard nose it would give the school the principles and the teachers the ability to kind of tweak in their own um student handbooks what you know age appropriate or what's with the Styles or where we're at do be able to enforce it at that level if that makes sense hey Patty can I Patty Jackie can I interject something real quick yeah go ahead um one of the Hallmarks of failed school policies is when they are not equitably enforced so when you talk about wanting to let individual teachers or even individual administrators sort of making decisions like that um it to
015me it's very scary because as soon as a teacher or a administrator enforces something that others are not enforcing that's like an invitation to a lawsuit that you're going to lose um does the does the end of the policy that I added in there address that where it's the buildings administrator or school counselor that has the is the one that makes the decision whether something is being appropriate or inappropriate and I'm not just referring to halter tops or tank tops there's words in there um about rips for clothes or clothes with stains or clothes that don't fit very well which brings me to the impact of families and the socioeconomic um uh strains that can be on families to have to replace items or buy additional items to concy of this uh Dr code um
016I'm gonna ask Dr deito to respond to that I should tell you guys um if you remember the last meeting I'd forgotten my hearing aids to charge them well now I have one hearing aid because the other one broke completely and I won't be able to get new hearing aids I don't even even have an appointment until the 30th is this month so you're fine you're not doing anything wrong Jackie but I can get about onethird of what you're saying and I can't understand the rest okay so you just brought up an example um number four clothing that is torn ragged or that has holes when we know Styles have changed and people actually pay to buy fashionable um clothing that has you know potential rips in it so it would be reasonable right that
017that particular one is stricken like it it really is um right uh the other clothing which is soiled with grease oil paint or dirt perhaps there was a time that they were coming to school um with fresh grease that then it would I don't know end up on the furniture well this was a farming community so that did happen so that I understand but I don't know that that's our reality any longer um I'm not sure do you think Chris there are times when students are in an ad class or a tech class where they're working on items that do yes but then they have some sort of an apron or something or they have a change of clothes as a part of the expectation of that class or you or does it come under
018here do you actually have to you don't end up enforcing it is the question correct you don't not when the child ised that yeah because it's not something that then they go to the library and they're soiling the furniture in the library right it's not like damp on them so if it raises to the level of them needing a change of clothes will contact parents and they'll bring in a change and that makes sense just like if somebody had an accident right it doesn't say don't urinate on yourself here right if somebody had an accident we're going to be very responsible um and so I think then right number one could also be stricken right so if I start to look at what is here um that makes sense that's very concrete like bare feet
019um if we were to strike that I know that our insurance would not cover us should there be an injury because we allowed students to walk around with their feet it's also a violation of health code you can't do that correct you can't right but that's the reason it the insurance wouldn't cover us so C's version like CES full updated version they from I mean I'm not looking at it right now but they don't have those very specific common sense um things listed so with with me striking off all the specific ones that are on there and then looking at C's version I'm a little confused because they don't have it either right I don't know if that was ever an issue here did we have I I don't know how it got on here
020just like some of the other items was there a time that it had to become so specific for whatever reason I'm sure back when it was a farming Community it probably was a thing yeah I mean it it we're not going back all that far to when uh people were getting up guys were getting up at 4:30 in the morning to milk the cows and and throw hay around yeah so along those lines too where you have this section of no restrictions on freedom of dress and adornment will be imposed which that that's just in black Print that's not here on page 21 21 was in the anything that's in Black was part of our original what stands now okay policy well but that's it doesn't say there won't be any it says there won't
021be any that violate particular particular things and I I think she's right to include that yeah yeah of course um but that doesn't prevent us from saying for example um that articles that have indecent inflammatory pictures blah blah blah or illegal substances it doesn't prevent us from Banning those so is there anything in the proposed that prevents us from adhering to the current reality at the school anything you can think of Chris that if everything is strucken do you think it's going to create a a new situation because it's no longer descriptive whereas at one time it was will that be misunderstood as oh I now can do this because it's no longer here anything cause you concern and when Chris is done I need to finish my comments sure and I don't think so
022but it's it's I'm glad you explained that Jackie so it's not to say that what's being stricken is now acceptable correct it's is just providing um some really leeway that makes sense because she does include some real specific parameters um and we just want to make sure right and and I feel like we discussed at a previous meeting where like School law yes Tak pres over like over Community Law and so School law regardless of what the dress post says is you can have anything that has drugs alcohol vaping sares anything like that so I would add um at the bottom of page 21 in the highlighted green section if a student's attire it says if a student is deemed unacceptable or prohibited I would I would if a student's attire is deemed unacceptable or
023prohibit I know that was the intent all along thank you sorry about that that's okay we have a procedure for that it's called expulsion yeah um Terry would you mind going back to what you had started saying earlier I'm so sorry that I interrupted and got off topic no that that's fine actually a lot of my questions have been answered and that Dr deito just pointed out something that I was actually going to mention just now about that last sentence so I think we are in good shape um I think it's important that you included uh this paragraph on page 21 about the District dress code because that was my concern is that if we don't specifically say you know you can't wear a bra with you know black spikes to school that people actually
024understand that that if it's okay at home it doesn't mean that it's okay here this is a learning institution so as long as um it it's understood I I'm I'm okay with this um I'm go ahead Sean no I was going to say you know from the beginning of the conversation I it seems to uh I was thinking along a different lines too so kind of about what Terry just said you know it it it makes sense it's not that it's uh is prohibited it's just giving a little bit more leniency I guess or or Lee way to uh for the common sense to kick in so Noe I have a better perspective on what I'm looking at now so and I guess just to follow up on that as well you know with us
025moving away from punitive consequences is you know say for example a student shows up with a SE-R shirt with a black top with rhinestones it's not automatic suspension automatic detention automatic removal from the school it becomes a conversation with either the guidance counselor or the principal that involves the parents or Guardians to and then give them an opportunity to change and then they don't miss out on school time because of uh dress code interaction that's an excellent point we we don't want them to go through school that you know half the day and now they're in class and now it's being addressed we want to make sure that we are coherent in our approach um and consistent right from the beginning um so that we don't interrupt the learning for the student total agreement um
026I I agree with that too I I do have concerns anytime I talk about any dress code um I spent 15 years dealing with stuff where you know the first teacher thought it was fine the second teacher just couldn't be bothered right and then they'd come to lunch and I'd be looking at them going you can't dress like that and it would turn into a giant battle because the the kid would have gotten away with it for half their school day and they don't understand why suddenly now they're being held accountable Chris is there where are we with that kind of thing regardless of what the policy is that's difficult um you know we do have staff in the hallways in the morning and we ask that staff help with the identification of a possible
027attire concern and then that's brought to the administration's attention and we address it Allison and assistant principal and myself um but there are kids that come in through the front door the side door after the first block you know through the middle of the day so there are kids that we do miss but we encourage staff to report it as much as or as early as often as possible so that we can address it do they slip through the cracks no question you know but that that issue has not uh gotten out of Education yet I mean probably not avoidable yeah can I can I ask like what are the most popular like interactions like what do you see that what's most common what's frequent yes thank you um are there like the mid drift
028shirts both many genders are common wearing the mid drift shirt not the short shirts anymore short they're there but that is isolated towards one particular gender that's PR sure but the uh the the the mid drift or the the belly button being seen appears to pop up for almost everyone or many not almost almost everyone but many yeah and it's not only for the female students can I I know this isn't really have anything to do with me can I ask one question though yeah so in the very first paragraph under number 20 it says the board does not dictate students groming what clothing may or may not be worn you kind of are so I don't know whether that sentence is necessary like I would start with the the board expects students clothing and
029appearance to generally meet accepted standards of safing in common because because you actually are dictating what students can and cannot wear so I don't know whether that that's just me that's just me reading through it as an outside person but I just think contradictory you're contradictor yourself that's all is that in green or in Black that's in Green in green okay so that's C language I think no cave languages I double checked Cade languages ends at the body type sl size that's where the cave language ends it makes perfect sense NE yeah it just doesn't I don't think you need that sentence expects students clothing and and I would just start with the board expects students clothing to be generally that's just my outside view of this looking at it persp no I agree um
030I I would agree I would prefer to start with um the board expects and just delete everything before that line on that sentence not the whole paragraph Just yeah it was my only two cents and I've got a couple of other edits um that I'd like to see in here um going back to page 21 it um a clothing may not depict advertise or Advocate um the reference of or the use of Alcohol Tobacco marijuana or other controlled substances that language technically implies that marijuana is a controlled substance which in many ways it is not anymore um so what I would like to add or or alter that a little bit that says marijuana or other intoxicating and or Controlled Substances cool yep I mean I think that Cav language but that may have come
031out previous to the legalization in the state yep um similarly clothing may not depict or reference because if someone has words understood yeah or reference pornography MH if you look at C that same issue is covered because it says it may not use or use or depict hate speech so that's covered there uh quick question when we did the um policy for um just student or school um what's it called we covered in it what hate speech is right um Jim what am I trying to think of my definitions yeah we did a pol student climate clim in the student clate that went through that covers hate speech right that's in there it I don't remember if it's explicitly um references hate speech but it certainly covers it in in the intent I don't think
032there's any question about that I just don't remember the the specific detail so it's a good question but um I I think it is covered okay so in the event that student shows up has a t-shirt on that is deemed P speech there it could be referenc to the student clate policy and not just who get desde what is you can do a cross reference to that policy at the end of this policy if you want to can we add the word clear in front of reference um where sure in the change that you just made for B for B uh or c C well I didn't you didn't make a change to I didn't make any change to C Oh I thought you just added the word reference to no I was saying that
033we didn't need to because it was covered under I I changed B not c ah okay I'm thinking I need hearing aids what was that I think I need hearing aids no he did that on purpose I knew it got you you're so considerate I I do have um for what it's worth some just comfort with deleting some of the specific things [Music] um for example um on page 20 you have items 1 two 3 it's unsafe it's disruptive uh to school operations in the educational process in general actually never mind that that pretty much covers what I was going to say um the part about bare feet still makes me a little crazy um I think we should leave it in there the same thing is true about short shorts halter tops the half
034shirs I think they I think those should be explicitly forbidden um you would add somewhere such as and include these examples in the in the green um you would provide them as examples however we did it yeah okay um right seethrough clothing underwear is clothing I mean in in the idea of you know parent Guardian being in control and you know giving them I really don't see very many parents or Guardians sending their kids to school with their no no zones exposed um well I can tell you that I once had a sophomore who lived in a very strict religious family Jackie and every morning she hid in the bushes outside the bus stop changed all our clothing and came in looking like a very attractive hooker and um I don't think that's appropriate language
035to use but I think I understand what you're saying it is actually very accurate language but that's fine um so there are kids who will hide and change and um their parents yeah would be in shock um so the only potential challenge is if Chris and the administrative team is addressing one of the situations that is very very common that he just shared are very common and we have strucken that language from the policy yep it creates an opportunity to say no no no you used to have that language now you don't have it you are targeting my child you're T like it creates um um a real potential problem that's that actually I've experienced in the past so that's the only reason that I would say to just think about what Jim is sharing
036and after hearing what Chris and Allison's experience is currently at the school that if you strike everything you could potentially be sending a message that then really puts them in a very difficult position where they become accused of something that's not true but it's hard to defend because the family would be correct it was very clear and we knew it was a problem it was clear in the policy we know it's a known problem but now we're actually going to strike the language from the policy yeah I have a really hard time with that same so my idea with that is and instead of having language that says no tank tops no halter tops no short shorts have language that say no students can wear clothing that exposes their midress no student can wear clothing
037that exposes their upper thighs like have it just be a very neutral way okay to say that you know these are the body parts that should be covered when in school yeah I mean that pretty much covers it I don't that's a different way of saying it but I don't it says it so I don't think I have a problem with that um I just think that that's that's more of an inclusive way of doing it and less specific to certain people um because of the of the vocabulary right that midriff was historically representing females that's what you're talking about is where that in your mind goes as far as the vocabulary that's used but I think it gets at the same exact um process for clarity does that work for absolutely you know your
038keep your shoulders covered mid covered your thighs covered thighs covered can I make a suggestion I would suggest we go through Cab's version on page 18 and pull out any language that we think would pertain that we would feel comfortable with that you know to Jackie's point doesn't um focus too much on one particular gender but that everyone would feel comfortable including in that section like clothing must cover undergarments exactly or fabric covering breast genitals and but buttocks must be opaque yeah yes I love the uh clothes must cover um the undergarments I think that's a really good covers all it covers people that students that want to wear their low their pants baggy or or students that want to wear you know rhinestone studded tops I will get covered all of it I mean
039reading through how they have this outlined um me personally I think C did a good job of vetting this I almost feel that this would be appropriate so like CDF talks about shoes which are safe and appropriate for weather course assignments athletic and other conditions that doesn't say no bare feet it actually says the what you're referencing Jackie that kind of language yeah I mean I had no problems with all of what cave was doing I just I think I was trying to keep it a little bit shorter um but putting back in whatever's uh whatever C had there is definitely yeah I'm on board thank you CU that way I mean to me it just seems like it's it's it's not referencing gender it's so simply saying this body part cannot be exposed right
040like students must wear clothing including both a shirt with pants or skirt or the equivalent dresses leggings yoga pants shorts look like yeah you're not coming half dressed exactly all right so here's my question which is pretty much um just sort of practical and in terms of you know where do we go next um it seems to me that it makes sense to work on this some more and look to try to finalize it next month um and that would give and any of us time to kind of Wordsmith or figure out exactly what language we want to add all that stuff and come in with proposals specifically to address and I would like to add also Chris that definitely includes you because uh you're going to have to live with us um and and
041we we know that um is is that acceptable to everybody yes yeah yeah yeah sure okay um I'm glad you said that we couldn't see you nodding um all right so let's consider this tabled um Jackie you can work on it or if you want we can work on it together um and anybody else pardon oh Sean you had a question I'm sorry yeah no no problem just a simple question as far as you know anywhere in here and I'm just trying to find anywhere in here where just if it if it ever does come down to the fact of so say and I understand what Jack says a parent really should you know have the The Knowing to not send their kids at approp you know to inappropriate whatever that is considered but where
042does it say so what happens I'm just trying to not get into a you know a legal thing or a back and forth if if say the parents find it acceptable when we when we kind of make it more vague as we're going to go to and then if the parent and then it gets into a back and forth where does that you know what happens at that point where is it covered in here where the parent comes in and says well I I I think it's acceptable and I think it falls into the guidelines versus a teacher it's at the end where it says you can appeal to the superintendent if a parent is not not happy with the principal's decision I think that's what you're talking about yes I would ultimately Sean and
043and this is why I was nervous about deleting some of this stuff ultimately if you get the right parent it ends up in a lawsuit um and if the language isn't clear enough um and especially you know given the scenario that Dr deito was talking about where we had the policy it said don't do it we knew it was an issue we took all that stuff out that implies that it's now acceptable and that would be challenging to have to defend in a lawsuit um that's the language that we have in here from C that um Terry was talking about kind of covers all of that it uses different words than what we had in the past and it may be that that's a less offensive to some people um because it seems less gender
044oriented and more biologically physically oriented but it would provide us I think the cover legally to be uh a little bit safer the other thing is if we sort of leave it generically and Sean you know um they're doing their jobs at the school the principal says you can't do this and the parent says well it doesn't say that it's well it's my judgment well I don't agree with your judgment why put them in that conflict oriented situation there are parents out there that'll fight you on that but who won't fight it if they see it's actually in the policy because it's just not worth their time and there's a policy right that's that's strong back does that make sense John no absolutely absolutely okay all right so we're going to consider this tabled and
045um folks can work individually um and we'll we'll see where we go from there um anything else for the good of the order oh I'm sorry go ahead okay it's loud I'm outside my kids are running around um so in the following up in the spirit of you know meeting very specific policy language so that um you know parents know what they can and can't fight I I didn't I feel like there was a conversation at one point where we were discussing how we don't want to have too many policies because then there's like it's too hard to follow or there's too I don't remember the reason why um oh no no you're you're right you're you're talking about the quantity of policies which is a different than the language in policies to be able
046to perform our duty to teach and to have kids learn yeah okay again maybe this isn't the time or space but the the thing that I to is why is it why does it seem so important to have such strict regulation over what students wear um Beyond safety and health and neglect and you know making sure that kids aren't getting through I just I don't really you're talking about let me let me ask you a question um why do we have explicit rules for bidding drugs and weapons they alter the behavior students and they can harm other students I I guess if we're going here what is an exposed midr do to to change the safety or health of the educational process it's I was thinking of it a little bit differently um kids do
047foolish things like Dr deito was about to was starting to say um we kind of came in at the same point um we have to be able to deal with the fact that they're adolescence and I mean for example having a t-shirt on it that says F you if you can't take a joke only it doesn't just have the F doesn't harm anyone but it could be pretty disruptive we wouldn't allow it right right I'm not speaking specifically to like the language and stuff that's being depicted I'm I'm specifically questioning things like short or exposing a midress or the back of a body shoulders is being exposed that's my question is how is that harming or causing issues in in in education causes you unnecessary distractions possibly okay um it's hormonal like I think I
048think what we're really talking about about adolescence is the hormonal um triggers for kids at that age so what and if I'm speaking for if I'm you know speaking not for what you're rcing to is that a female body has an exposed midriff or the back of her shoulders exposed a male student W with hormones raging can't control themselves so we need to have the girl students well it could be or female could be either Jack be male or female and we're not saying that they can't control themselves we're saying they're distracted not paying attention it's natural it's a a natural process um as humans yep okay I just I feel and again I realize that I'm like way off on a lot of this stuff from the rest of you and this is just
049a conversation um why I it's just okay um I'll I'll we can table it um I'll reach out individually and try to have a more long conversation sorry my kids are going actually we can't do that it's illegal Jackie okay well because that would constitute an illegal meeting okay then I'll I'll make sure that I have my my notes put to with more specific questions for next meeting that's fine um okay thank you all right so are we agreed that we're going to table this for the time being yes all right going back to the last question I head is there anything else people want to bring up or address anything like that all right um based on our calendar we know when we're going to meet next and we'll see you guys all Wednesday
050night thank you meeting is adjourned bye thank you bye thank you