OCPS | 2025-04-01 School Board Work Session

001Good morning everyone and welcome to the Orange County School Board's work session which has been scheduled for today, Tuesday, April 1st, 2025 for the purpose of discussing JIC, the code of student conduct and IT initiatives. The public will not have an opportunity to provide input during this work session because it's not a regularly scheduled schoolboard meeting. No action will be taken and there'll be no open public comment in which the public would normally be able to address the school board on relevant topics. So, thank you nonetheless for joining us. Let me ask at the outside at the outset if everyone here would please silence your cell phones. Quick roll call. I see that well we have every no is member Salamanca we have everyone but member Salamanca present and I want to thank the board

002for being here this both of these issues are really important to all of us to my fellow board members and any members of staff that'll be speaking please make sure to use your microphone make sure it's turned on and speak really really close into it so that our YouTube and Orange TV viewers can hear you clearly. Again, thank you everyone for being here for our meeting. And we will now pause for a moment of silence and then I'll invite you to join us in the pledge of allegiance. And now for the pledge. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right, Dr. Vasquez, I am going to turn the meeting over to

003you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome back. I think this is our first meeting after spring break. So, super excited that we're into the last nine weeks and with that comes our opportunity to revisit our code of student conduct and so this is the first work session that we are having. we have had opportunities for our community to give input as well as for the board to share some of the things that they want to see revised. we have our incredible team that is here and I'm going to turn it over to Miss Dimmitiki Joiner and she will introduce her team. Good morning. I didn't turn Good morning school members Dr. Vasquez. I have here Akiva Haynes, the attorney that supports student discipline and I also have Delila Hernandez who's a member of our team.

004She's one of the area administrators. But I'm going to turn it over to Miss Hayes to talk about policy JIC to start us off. Good morning, chair, board members, superintendent Basquez. we did not make any changes to policy JIC because there was not any legislative changes. So there are no current changes to the policy itself. Member member Ferrant, did you want to comment on this? I did want to see how we can I know we had a speaker last school board meeting regarding acts of hate that are happening on school grounds and wanted to see how we can include that within the policy as either its own section like its own how would you say that disciplinary action often offense. but I do think we need to have something in writing so that if we

005ever do have another incident like happened at U LBV where a student took an Israeli flag, put red handprints on it and hung it up for classmates to see. I think that needs to have a specific action because if that happened to any any flag to any community group I think to me it's targeting and I think students need to understand that's inappropriate and we don't tolerate that kind of action on campuses. Thank you member Fant. if I can speak to this as well in looking at our code of student conduct and in talking to our general counsel, we do actually I didn't realize, but we do identify hate speech as an offense. However, when I looked at and it might be the version I was looking at in board docs, but it lists kind

006of the c table of contents and it says hate speech and I forget it's on like page 31, but when I went to that page, that page was blank. so it might be that there was something wrong with the online version, but in addition, the only other place I saw it mentioned was in a student wearing clothing and a list of things that the closing can't depict and hate speech was one of them. I think there are a couple things I'd like to think see. one I think defining better what hate hate speech is and also most importantly what that what the consequence of that offense is. So the way it would be treated now is for instance with the Israeli flag it was treated as vandalism because we don't have it's not listed in

007our matrix if you will as a standalone offense. If it had created a campuswide dis disruption it would have been treated as a campuswide disruption offense. But I could easily see a situation where neither of it didn't trigger any of those because perhaps a student or a group of students made some statement, I don't know, came up with a song, whatever it might be. And very hurtful and troubling to our population, any group, not just obviously not just our Jewish population, but whatever the case might be. and it's reported and deans take immediate action, they bring it all to a halt and so it never really triggered a campuswide disruption or some other thing that it would fall under, but the impact is still the same. So, it's I think it's it's important to me.

008I think it's important to all of our communities. I think it's important to all of us that we have consequences for things that we say we don't tolerate. I think we have a zero tolerance associated with it. I need to check with the superintendent, but when we say that again, I think we just need to work on improving, beefing up, clarifying, and having meaningful consequences. So, that for me is the only real focus that I have this year on the code. And I want to thank Miss Spectre for bringing this to our attention because honestly I didn't hear about it any other way and I wouldn't know about it and I wouldn't realize that we had an area of our code that needs enhancing and improving. So with that, let me call on member Bird.

009Thank you, Chair. I appreciate member FR bringing it up and I think the issue that because I spoke to general counsel when this happened and my question after I spoke to the discipline team was why was this not considered a hate crime or hate speech? because that is in our code of conduct in a section. But the way it was explained to me is the reason this did not qualify as hate speech is because there was it was identified as political speech and political speech is you know different than hate speech. that is where I think the distinction was in this and that is where I think we need better definition because we've had other examples of this. This is a very political issue that I think and I've talked to the superintendent about this.

010Our students don't fully understand. They're only getting what they're hearing on, you know, Instagram or, you know, they're not getting the full story and the full lesson behind what how hurtful and painful these these things are. And so since this is such a political issue, I think that kids are saying things and doing things that they think they believe is the right thing, but they don't understand the consequences of how what they're saying has on the other people. So that is where I think we need to have a discussion and figure out the consequence level. you know, if we're are we is our goal to teach these children what the history and what those handprints on that flag, which is what she emailed us about, were so hurtful to them. or is it this is

011considered a form of hate and to this group of people this is considered a group of hate and we need to have stronger discipline. So, we need a discussion there. But that was where I understood it was the disciplined for the discipline team identified it as with general counsel or with our legal team that it was political speech and so it was protected. Am I correct on that? Okay. Thank you. sorry just getting it closer to me. that's correct. so as I've discussed with some of you, and I guess I'll this will probably be the best time to go into it now. students have first amendment protections when they come into the schoolhouse gate. And so what happens is when a student makes a statement. Now, it could be a very controversial statement like this

012one was, and I'm not going to go into the the particulars of it because I still think that student who was disciplined has their privacy rights here, but it was a very controversial statement that they made. And under the case law that comes down, students don't lose their first amendment right when they enter the schoolhouse gate. And there's a case called Tinker versus De Moine. That's from the United States Supreme Court. And they said pretty expressly that any departure from absolute res regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any work spoken in class in the lunchroom or on campus that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our constitution says we must take that risk. And our history says that

013is the sort of hazard the sort of hazardous freedom. The kind of openness that is the basis of our national strength and the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive often dis disputatious society. And then it goes on to talk about when you can take action against speech. And what the court said there was in order for the state for the person the state and the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression or opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompanies an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would materially and substantially interfere with

014the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of school, the prohibition cannot be sustained. That's the substantial disruption requirement in the law. And so part of the reason why when we were looking at this candidly was based upon our information and the statements, this flag was up for approximately one class period. It did not cause a wide disruption of campus discipline. It did not cause you know fights. It didn't cause a riot. It didn't cause any of this. And the chair and I have had this discussion that you know our folks fortunately found it before it became disruptive. Right. But because it didn't become disruptive, we as an institution under the First Amendment can't take action against that child's speech. Now, some folks that saw this thought it was speech that was hateful. And let

015me be clear, when I saw it, I didn't thought it was I did not think it was an appropriate way for somebody to express it. I think there's more appropriate ways in in a civil society to to to voice the political opinion that was behind it. But the courts have said, look, it speech gets protection. even speech that's unpopular, even speech that makes people upset that gets protection in under the first amendment, kids have first amendment rights and to the extent it does not cause disruption, schools have a hard time taking action against that. we even had the most recent case, you guys may have heard about it couple years ago in front of the Supreme Court. It was the cursing cheerleader and she was the one who cursed on Instagram. It was outside of

016school. but the school said it caused substantial disruption. And one of the things that the court analyzed was, well, what was the substantial disruption and appeared like it was a topic of conversation for five or 10 minutes, a couple days in algebra class? And the court said, that does not qualify as the kind of substantial disruption that would allow you to take action against what would otherwise be protected speech. So I understand from one end of it the folks on the on the Jewish side, the Israeli side believe that it's hateful speech. On the other end of this, it was a student who was thought and the student statements, I'm not going into the particulars of it, but it was indicated in those statements that it was a political speech. And from that standpoint in

017looking at the law and looking at the fact that there was a lack of substantial disruption, we in the legal department and it wasn't just myself, it was Miss Haynes, it was Sarah Capesky who does our code of we all had a group discussion about this and we all came to the determination collectively that we did not think that there was a substantial disruption that would justify you know taking action against the students speech the nature of the speech. Now obviously the flag was up in the school. It was being displayed by the school. It was vandalized. We felt comfortable taking action on that basis. But as for the content of the speech, we thought that was political. So I'm happy to answer any questions. All right. Thank you, member Gallo. Thank you, Madam Chair.

018and thank you, Mr. Pomearini, for that explanation. I would argue a couple things. Number one, it we were it was the destruction of a flag. It was defacing of a flag that is sacred to Israel. That would be like defacing our American flag. I wonder if we would have treated it the same if someone would have burned it or hang on, I'm not done. and I would also argue that why there wasn't a campuswide disruption because it was found within the hour. there was a large disruption after the fact on social media and then it was brought to the board. So there has been a disruption maybe not at the school but in our community and as we move forward I mean I see the hate speech and it's not just with the Jewish community

019it's with several different marginalized communities. Not that the Jewish community is marginalized. I'm not saying that. I was referring to LGBTQ online and it's awful. Like people feel that they could just come and spew their hate and their misinformation and their knowledge. And I feel like that is something that we can't allow in our schools. And that even though we may not have deemed that hate speech, I promise you that our Jewish students felt fear, they were afraid. And we should not have an environment where every student doesn't feel safe to attend school. So I believe that I know that the child is sorry kids their brain isn't fully functioning. We all know that. God knows I raised two. but we just we have to put some stronger parameters in place just to say, "Hey,

020this is not acceptable. We will not allow hate speech. We will not allow destruction of property. We will not allow you to place hands on anything that others may find sacred. Like we just have to draw a line in the sand and we have to do and if that we do it through the student code of conduct where we can be a little bit more strong without violating the first amendment. I get what you're saying about First Amendment, but I think the minute that someone touched a flag and defaced it and destroyed it with the meaning that somes perceived behind it, I think that went from first amendment to hate. And I feel like it should have been handled in that manner. So any kind of language that we could put into the student comment

021or student code of conduct to kind of shore up that gap, I would be appreciated. And with that, please, Mr. Pomearine. Absolutely. Mr. Pomearine, you're recognized. It would help if I turn it on. With respect to the American flag, the United States Supreme Court has held that defacing the American flag is constitutionally protected first amendment speech. so yes, that would have been the same answer on that. Yeah. with respect, I want to make sure that I'm speaking clearly here too. there is I think action that we can take on the basis of speech that is actual hate speech that causes a disruption and I don't want to leave the impression that I don't think we can do it. These cases are all very dicey from a first amendment standpoint. It just is because it takes

022looking at all the facts and circumstances surrounding it and saying, "Okay, did this child engage in a violation of the code of conduct?" The answer is yes. And clearly here the answer was yes because we had a flag that was the property or at least in the possession of the school that had been defaced. Right? So we did take action with respect to the defacing of the flag. The extra step here that goes beyond the vandalism to the flag is, is there another penalty for whether or not the speech is actually hate speech versus whether it's protected political opposition? And drawing a line on that and putting language in that is going to create a bright line is going to be very difficult from from a constitutional standpoint. We're going to have to look at

023every case individually. I understand where the board's coming from and I think our staff understands where the board's coming from with respect to if it's stuff that causes disruption within the community that makes part of our community feel, you know, hatred, marginalized, you all want to take action to the extent you can. And I think it's going to be hard to draft language particularly on that. I think the one thing in having a discussion with the chair is we have it in the code, but we don't have it in the consequence in either level three or level four. In the email that I sent you all last night, I think it was Duvall and Seol County that had it within the consequences of their code of conduct. So I think it's appropriate if the board

024wanted to do it is to put it in and I leave this up to you all as the policy makers whether it's a level three or level four you know for actual hate speech that we can establish. I think that would be appropriate but the determination of whether or not it's going to be hate speech is going to be the hard call going forward and that's going to be a casebyase analysis. All right. Let if I can ask I think that the board members that want to be recognized are all on this topic. If anybody's on another topic, I would ask that we just focus on this and then we'll get to other topics. So, next up, member Douglas. Yes. I just wanted to re u reinstate restate it that we are about kids. We're

025about educating the students and make sure that they're safe in our schools and they don't feel fear and this event that happened this incident that happened caused fear. I'm sure coming from another country myself I can even imagine going to France and having the American flag defaced or put prints on it or anything like that. immediately I will feel fear and I really believe that we do need some stringent stringent rules to make sure that this event never happens again and it's not about only Jewish is all the flags we want to restate it because all our students matter and we just want to make sure that they receive an education in a safe environment where they feel like they can express themsel in a way that is positive So that's my take on that.

026Thank you, Member Douglas. Member Vanos, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. Member Douglas, I think that's such a great point that this expands beyond beyond just one group of people, but that all of our students deserve to feel protected in school. also wanted to just highlight something that our attorney said, which I find interesting. unpopular speech gets protection as long as it doesn't cause disruption in our schools. hope this applies to everything including books sitting on shelves in our libraries. but would also like to make a point that I think if we create a definition for what hate speech is, and if I can have this conversation, if I can ask a question, can we whatever the action that has been taken, can we then have a more severe consequence if it's based on an

027act of hate? So, for example, I think that's I think that's what you're getting to. So if there's a disruption, if there's fighting, if there's bullying, if there's vandalism, if there's destruction of property in some way, that there's a consequence for that for that action. But if the root of that action is based on an act of hate, then that can be elevated. Then the consequence can be elevated. Is that what you're saying? May I madam chair? You recognize Mr. Palmer? Thank you. Yes. I believe that is something that we can do because even what came we were looking at this and I looked at the criminal statute that talked about you know when crimes can get elevated on on the basis of you know hate speech protected characteristic and the court says if you

028target somebody because of that protected characteristic you can elevate a criminal penalty because that's in statute 775.085. So you could say let's say it I'll just use vandalism quite frankly. No, let me not use that. Let me use fighting. Right? So say you had a student you know start a fight with another student and you later come to find out that student says I didn't like them because they were African-Amean and that's why I chose them to fight with. I think under the criminal standard, not that I was saying using the criminal standard, but I'm using it as an example. I think you could escalate what would otherwise be maybe a level three into a level four. And I think that would be permissible. Now, the opposite is if you don't have evidence that the

029person was targeted because of that protected characteristic, you may not be able to to elevate that. So the example in the Florida Supreme Court case that I researched on this issue was it was a it was actually a somebody who started a fight with another person and during the course of the fight started referring to them by derogatory names and it was happened to be a Jewish person that they were you know saying derogatory names about them being Jewish and the court said if it comes out during the pendency of some sort of action but you didn't target that person because they were African-American Jewish, then that's not an enhancement. But if you have evidence that they targeted them because they were African-American, Jewish, Hispanic, whatever, then you can enhance it. So again, I know

030I'm saying a fact-specific inquiry quite a lot today, but it would be a fact-specific inquiry, right? I mean, which I think is appropriate because on the other side of this is First Amendment rights, and so those are important, too. And so I think it's always going to be a but I think that's okay. It's it's hard. This is just a hard area of law to navigate to make sure that everyone everyone's constitutional rights are protected and everyone's, you know, civil rights are protected and that schools are a place for for all of our students where they feel welcome. So I think that's okay and I don't think it's a reason not to move forward and to include it. but I also think that a really important piece of this is the education piece so that

031our students and our teachers, our administrators know what hate speech is and what is political speech and what is hate speech and what's allowed and what's not allowed. Of course, it would be great if our teachers felt comfortable being able to have these kind of conversations in the classroom. I don't think they do. which is really unfortunate but I think we need to find a way if we're going to incorporate this into our code of conduct that everyone understands exactly what it means which I also think is important just for behaviors of children to understand how these these words and how these actions can be so hurtful to people and maybe not everyone understands that. So I think the education piece is a really really important part. Thank you. Thank you. So, let me let

032me dovetail on on that for just a moment. I'm I'm up next. in terms of a teachable moment, you know, I would take it one step further because in this particular case, I think there was an opportunity regardless of how you define it. I think there was an opportunity to communicate why this was hurtful and regardless of what else you want to call it, it was hurtful. I think it could rise if not this. I think actually I think if you understand what those hands on the flag mean, I think it borders on terror. So I'm not and I want you to kind of respond if you would in a minute to when does speech cross over the line and create terror and how much do we have to know the intent of the human

033being when the outcome is somebody feels terror and this family both of their sons have felt that and by any of our standards that's just not okay. So at a minimum what I would have wanted to see is the message from the school explaining why what happened and not who did it but what happened and why that was so painful and that in itself I think would have gone miles for me and I think for the students impacted by that and the students causing that and other students who saw it to go, "Oh man, that was a really, really horrible thing that happened in 2000." And for anybody to in any way suggest that it's okay is extremely hurtful. So, we don't have to have we don't always have to have consequences for kids to

034have consciences. And so, that would be a first step. And I don't think that's in the code of conduct. I think that's just kind of in the behavior and expectations that we embed in in our schools and in everyone in our district. So that was one thought that I had in just what's possible without any debate over what's legal when it comes to defining hate speech. the a couple other things you know that came to mind is you know swast swatch swast sticker I can't say that word. Yeah. You know would we see would we see this differently if that were placed on the flag? Would I don't and you're gonna you're going to respond to that but is that some sort of a political statement? I mean, I don't I hate to go there,

035but I I think we may have a high ranking political figure who might have said that there was something positive about Hitler. So perhaps perhaps that's protected. I don't know where that line is drawn. it seems to me that part of that line is intent and I struggle with I again I'm I'm going to argue with the Supreme Court, but what the heck. but intent doesn't the fact that somebody doesn't intend to hurt somebody doesn't mean they haven't hurt somebody. and something that doesn't cause a campuswide disruption right now doesn't doesn't trigger much. I know we're talking about changing that, but I had a flashback as we were talking about the student we have some new board members, but we had a student who I think that I think the student was I think was

036expelled because they caused a stamp a campuswide disruption and several of us on the board felt like it was an unintended the student got into a fight. there was a lot of background but it was like he hit one kid and then a bunch of kids came to the defense of the one and next thing you know there was all out brawl and it got so out of hand that they had to you know what's the word kind of a lockdown so no change of classes till they got a handle on it. I think most of the board felt like that was not what the student was intending to do, but the student was disciplined because it was because it resulted in something they didn't intend. So, I kind of I go back to thinking

037about that and thinking that if it's all about intent, which is where I know I was and several of us were, that was not that student's intent, but we saddled them with the same consequence. Then in this case, even if it wasn't that student's intent, but had it if it created terror and it created other things that might have triggered a different response, I still think again it's a teachable moment to make sure kids understand what their actions mean and the fallout of those actions. you brought up the issue of of books and so I kind of struggle as well with if a student's having a pornographic conversation, you're going to please speak to that for a moment. But but the other thing that goes comes to my mind is the issue of what are

038we what are we trying to encourage and discourage and is it our isn't it our place to discourage behavior whether it meets any standard or not and how do we do that in a way that we can legally defend and I think there's times and this board has done that where we may be on a weak legal leg But sometimes we've decided to take a stand because the stand was worth taking puts superintendent in an awful position. But and I'm not suggesting that we need to do that in this place in this case. I think there are other things that we can do to improve this moving forward. Mr. Pomearini, you're recognized. Okay. So a couple things with respect to the swastika. First, I think that probably goes over the line of being hate speech

039because I think the symbol has become so widely known as being anti-Jewish coming out of World War II and how the Nazis utilized that symbol and how the Nazis, you know, participated in the extermination of of what was it 6 million Jewish folks in World War II. So, I think that symbol would widely be considered and held by the courts to be hate speech. Although, funny enough, in the Tinker case, just as an aside, the court noted that they banned black armbands in protest of the Vietnam War, but the school district didn't ban swastikas. So, they noted that as a sort of an aside, like one of those is not like the other. So, but I think now over the passage of time, people would consider the swastika to be hate speech. With respect to

040pornographic speech, Supreme Court's been very clear that indecent, lewd, or vulgar speech uttered during a school assembly on school grounds, but uttered on school grounds is not something that has first amendment protection. So that has is been clearly demarcated by the Supreme Court. It was a case where a student was supporting his friend for student government and engaged in a bunch of pun speeches that were talking about male genitalia. And so the court that got up to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court said that's indecent, LWDW, and vulgar speech and that's prohibited. So again, you chair, you're looking at me like the Supreme Court is consistent on some of these things. No, I'm not I don't I don't disagree with the court on that at all. I just am struggling with how I don't understand the

041logic behind that. And if the swash sticker has that same impact at the court level, this does too. Okay, the degree might is definitely lesser, but the implication of that is horrible. Just I hope everybody is aware of what took place, but I mean that was brutal. That was evil. That was so but but this to me this is you're putting your finger on the hard part of the analysis because on your on the side that you just annunciated it was the incident in 2000 where a Jewish person was murdered by folks who were for is Palestinian and they held bloody hands up to symbolize after they had committed the crime of murdering that Jewish person, right? Because the crowd wanted them. They wanted to know that they were brutally killed. Yes. Oh, I'm not

042I agree with the assertion. And I mean, it was, you know, a cheering moment, right, of an attack. So that's one basis of the symbolism there. The other basis of the symbolism and the other position that was asserted here was we all know the events of October 7th, 2023 and how Israel was attacked and they have now systematically gone about trying to respond to the attack against Hamas and the folks who are Palestinian who are in the Gaza Strip think that Israeli Israel has not conducted itself appropriately in the conduct of that operation. including they think that they have been indiscriminate with respect to targeting women and children. Now, I don't agree with that assertion, but that's the other side of the political argument. And if you remember on this flag, I can't explain it

043without saying what was on it. It was the red handprints, but at the top written in red was for they were only peacekeepers. So that on that end of it is an argument that Israel has not conducted its operations appropriately. That's the hard part of this discussion is one side will view what's on there one way, the other side will view it diametrically opposed and then to the extent we take action against one person under the first amendment, they could come back and sue us. And to be to be clear here, we got a demand letter with respect to the student who who was threatening who we were going to discipline here, saying that we think you're targeting him because of his First Amendment rights, and if you take action against us, we'll sue you.

044And so, this is the situation that we're going to be in. These are very fine lines to draw. And depending on which side of the line you come on, somebody may claim that their First Amendment right has been violated. And as I'm sure you all would guess, First Amendment litigation in a federal court is very expensive. There's no caps on damages. And so that is a difficult place for us to be. Member Fant. This is a great discussion. I think any way you look at it, there's always going to be two sides to every story. There's always two sides to everything. I think if it were up to me, I would put the golden rule in every classroom and I would ensure that we're teaching that to every child in Orange County Public Schools that

045we would do unto others as we would ask them to do to us. And that's really what it comes down to, that we would want to be treated with the same respect and kindness. And so I think for me I don't really know what happened as far as the discipline or how things were handled. I would you know love to to see that the student who caused the chaos was brought into a room with students from the Jewish community and they were able to sit down and say let's look at what happened. you feel frustrated by what's going on in a country that you're not in right now and you're hearing about all this and it creates rage and all this stuff. but what you did today was hurtful to this entire community and how

046does that make you does that did that help your case? Did that help you? Did that make you feel better? No. in fact, you're getting disciplined for it and it caused harm to or you know, emotional harm to a whole group of people. And so, how can we move forward and work differently? Let's I think there just needs to be a to me there it's it's very complicated. I think what frustrates me is it's like I feel like the district always has this like you know fear of getting sued. and I understand that there's that it is it is a an interesting topic because it's first amendment, but I would like to see something even if it was a level three where a student does have you know the acts of hate or is this

047something we can put under bullying? if it's not something that's an ongoing thing, I don't know if it's technically bullying than it is a more of an act of hate. So I don't know what the board feels on that. Like I think we need to have something where it's better defined and principles understand it. And then I think also really educating our students and helping them understand even if you are, you know, you're watching these things on you're watching realels and you're watching YouTube and you're watching the news and things really can boil your blood. but when you take that and you bring it into school and now you're causing harm in school, that's a that's a whole different ballgame. you know, same thing goes for parents. We have parents that they might be having

048a dispute outside of school. They come on campus and they're discussing the dispute. It's they are told, "Hey, this isn't the place. This isn't the time or place. We're not doing that here." And so I think students need to also be aware that this is not the time or place to be causing some sort of disruption in the way that it was handled like this. I do think it's complicated. I mean, I think I don't I mean, I just to me it's it's not complicated, but to the law and whatnot, I feel like legal stuff it seems more complicated. to me, it's just let's be kind to others and do to others what we would like them to do to us. so, personally, I think it would be nice to have a new offense that

049would be acts of hate and it would be something where we would define that more. whether it's vandalizing property and or you know speech whatever it might be. but at the same point then it's you know how do we define that and to one person it might feel like they're you know we live in kind of an offended culture where everybody's offended by everything. So you know at what point what is the line that we place? though. if we do not put that in, then we do need to have more of a clear definition of, you know, whether that goes under bullying. can there be several? Like in this case, I think it should have been a bullying, vandalism, disruption. Can we have a partial disruption? anyways, those are my thoughts. Almost disruption. Disruption. circumvented.

050So, let me call on the superintendent. I think she's leaning in. And then Mr. Pomearini, also u I want one of you all to respond to the bullying. Yeah. So you're accurate that bullying has to be more than one occurrence. So it would not fall with this particular incident would not fall under that category. excuse me, Madam Chair. Are you was it just in response to her comment or to because I had buzzed in. I'm just want to make sure how far I make my comments. If you're on this topic. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Wanted to hear from you. Yes. so you know this was a horrible event that took place and what I want to ensure that is clear to our board that we can add acts of hate. We can add the consequence to

051it. What I need for each of you to understand is the intent and how we are able to assert what that intent is. If it's political speech, it is still protected. So regardless of whether you have that in the code, it is still protected. And that's what I'm not I think some of you understand that, but I want to make sure that all of you get that piece of it. And that's what's so difficult in this case is that the in the intent that the student who committed the offense asserts that it was political and that was part of of his statement. not I'm not saying that's accurate or not, but that's that's where the rubber meets the road in this situation and anything moving forward that is similar in nature. So, it doesn't matter

052if we have it in the code because originally this was coded as a hate crime and then as the investigation evolved it was determined it was not. In fact, my understanding is even the school resource officer asserted that it was not. And so I don't want you to believe that just because we have this offense, if someone asserts it's political in nature, that we would be able to violate their first amendment rights. I do think it's an excellent idea that we do more on the education side. I love the idea of a PSA where our students understand what it is when you're talking political speech, hate speech, how what you may perceive to be political in nature can be very offensive and very hurtful. And I think if we have some of our students that

053produce those and we show them throughout the year, not just as part of our roll out of the code of conduct at the beginning of the year, that's going to go a long way. And maybe that is that is also something that our own student advisory council may want to take on for next year is you know looking at you know being kind, being respectful of others being more understanding of the differences because we are so different and we all have gifts that we bring to the table. but I just want to make sure that our staff has the right direction, which my understanding is we need something with acts of hate, but that you understand the political speech aspect of it doesn't change. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, member Bird. thank you, Superintendent.

054And that was what I was going to say was that even if no matter what we have in the code, that was not the issue here. The issue was it was not identified as hate speech. It was identified as political speech. And this is an argument that I've had with general counsel and superintendent mostly with general counsel. No offense, John. for a couple years now because since this incident, since everything has been going on overseas, we had a very similar situation at a high school where a student journalist wrote an article, political article about what was going on overseas. But there were it was there were things in there that were misinformed and were very interpreted very hatefilled by the Jewish community and I spoke with rabbis about it. We had we had a we

055went through a lot of work around this and it was the same thing that this student was protected to say her viewpoint on the events happening over there because what's happening is political and this is what she felt. This is how she felt about what was happening over there. But our whole argument there was that there needed to be more education. We all we all came down to the bottom line is there needs to be more education about the history of these countries and it's so much deeper than what these kids in this generation are hearing and getting on social media. And this is an argument we've even had in our own household with our own daughters because it's all they're hearing on social media. And so it's really almost like a deprogramming that has

056to be done. So my other comment I have is we do require education on our code of conduct and counseling for drug offenses. We have the back on track program. Why can we not have the same exact consequence for this situation and required education course through the Holocaust Center? They have Yeah. because they have all of this education that talks about everything like even what member Ferrant says about treating other people and it's very very clear about the history of the countries and also how your actions affect other people and they have a great they have so many wonderful resources so I would like to see that as one of our responses and I don't know how now my only issue with that is that then it opens s up. Well, do we have an

057education a required education course for LGBTQ kids that you know if there's speech that comes out against that or you know Africanameans or all the different group then you could have many of them different but but I would recommend I definitely would recommend that this student the other student that we talked about we did actually set that student up with meetings with the rabbi and everything. So, she understood. But, I think that I think that's really important. So, and I don't know how we answer it cuz you're right. It it's very fine line and but I personally believe that regardless of intent the effect on the people is should matter. It just should. Thank you, Superintendent. You're recognized. thank you, Madam Chair. We absolutely can incorporate that into those offenses and we can also add

058a caveat to that if they refuse because you know they can refuse that consequence, then we elevate it to the next level. And we have resources both within the district and within the community that we can put together programming for those that we have seen targeted and then that becomes part of whatever the consequence. It doesn't have to be the only con. It may be, you know, you get a suspension and this and that and it would be packaged, but that the educational piece would be the one that triggers it continuing to be the lower level and then if not it's elevated to a level four. That's a great idea. All right. Thank you, vice chair. a couple of I think closing thoughts for me on this. There is one one concern that I have

059that has been mentioned several times that we teach students the difference between political speech and hate speech and that be part of the dialogue and discussion. And the reason I have I would love to see us focus around what words you use and how they affect people. And that while you might be wanting to vent your anger at what is happening between a government or a political leader and what your students, your neighbors are responsible for. And those are two entirely different things. And that's where we're seeing the problems throughout the country is that there's so much anger. And even when we teach history, we're kind of like reinforcing these are the reasons that our countries are fighting. and looking back at the problems of the past can kind of, I think, give people a

060sense of I'm right. See what happened. Okay. Like my father's German and there's a part of me that's like, you know, should I be walking around feeling responsible for what Hitler did when there is actually a part of me that is really troubled by slavery in this country, but I don't really think I have any ownership over what Hitler did. So bringing all of that past history and a whole dialogue about the wars between different countries might not actually reduce the temperature. It I'm afraid it might increase it. and also really I want to make sure that we're not teaching our kids how to get away with something. So if if you want to say something and you want to attack the students in this school because they're Jewish or because they're Palestine or because

061they're AfricanAmerican, whatever. If if you want to attack them because that's what you feel in your heart that you hate them, then if we tell them the right words to use so that it's political speech, I just am worried about teaching our students how to get away with it. So I would I the approach that member Farrant took about just get back to the basics. How do you want to be treated? Treat people the way you want to be treated. And surprisingly enough, most the time they'll treat you the same way back. That simple message and the message that don't hold somebody accountable for something they have no responsibility for. I mean, it's that simple. And the other thing that comes to mind is the pledge. I know Dr. Vasquez and I are have you

062know been a part of the pledge. I'm sure most of the board members have signed on but the whole approach that they've taken and maybe maybe we can bring Mr. Ginsburg and Mr. Hunter, perhaps we could bring them in and they could maybe have conversations with our principles and have some sort of an opportunity for them to talk about the way that they're trying to go about creating the a responsibility to stand up, but in a way that isn't attacking. It's standing up for making sure we're all being fair to each other. It's not standing up for this side or standing up for that side. It's standing up for being kind and understanding. So just another thought they're very the entire effort is very serious and very sincere and those two individuals I think if

063given an opportunity would find a way to also help. with that let me recognize member Vanos. Thank you Madam Chair. I love the idea of having u some of the I guess founders of the Central Florida Pledge, whatever whatever we call it to come in and speak. And I know every time we talk about speakers, superintendent's thinking is this instructional time taking away more of my instructional time. But but the reality is if is that if we have if we have a school environment where our students are where we're not having to spend time with discipline and disruptions and all of these sorts of things, our students are learning better. So it's something I would support and something I've heard actually in our student town hall last week, which was students are done with videos.

064They're done with resiliency videos. They want to hear actual speakers come in and talk to them about the things that impact them. So, I think that's a really really good idea. going back to I guess I'm just I don't know where we are right now. Are we are we saying that we are going to make hate speech part of the code or the policy? Or are we saying that we can use it is an enhancer? I'm not sure where we are. So, I'm not even sure how to go about this conversation. Okay. I think we I think where the board is on this, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that we would like to make sure while hate speech is listed, but it's not assigned as an offense and a consequence that there

065should be and there should be some sort of a definition of what hate speech is. But I think Mr. Pomearini and the superintendent's point is that regardless of what we write, if the action of a student doesn't meet the legal definition, then it's it's not hate speech is not going to be treated that way. But right now, even if it does, we don't have any clear ex consequences. We don't to say here's where you fall. If it doesn't trigger major campus disruption or something else, it doesn't fall. So it needs to have a place, it needs to have a definition, and it needs to have a consequence. And then beyond whether or not it meets it, there be another effort of communication when something like this happens, an opportunity to explain an education portion. and

066I think it was vice chair who brought up the idea of there being kind of an alternative op option also for help me out superintendent how to describe that. So, and staff can take this and tweet, but it's almost like we could have something that's a level three that is defined hate speech and that comes with well, no, I don't know that I can do a level three hate speech because isn't that right? We could do acts of hate because if it's determined to be hate speech, that's a crime. So, I've I'm backtracking. So we could have something that is acts of hate level three and that comes with an educational component. and if they refuse the educational component then it could be elevated to a level 4. So it would be separate from hate

067speech. can also pull out hate speech and put that as a single offense, not embedded in the narrative for a level four. so that it meets what some of you have said that we want it to be clearly defined and separate. It still be level four. So that's what I have surmised from the conversation the board has had. Can I ask you to clarify one thing just for the benefit of the public? you kind of paused and you and you I remember verbatim, but you either said hate speech or you said acts of hate and then you said what? Not that because it's it's a crime. Explain what you meant by that. And I'm going to defer to the council, but if it is hate speech, that is a crime. And when that's reported to

068the SRO, that begins an entire process. acts of hate are not necessarily criminal in nature. And so that would be the separate category that this may this particular incident that you are referring to may have fallen into although I go back to the fact that it was determined it was political speech. So that's the difference and again I bring back that in the situation that all you know that brought us here it was brought to the SRO's attention and the SRO determined that it was not because if it if it had been hate speech there would have been an arrest. Am I am I correct? Yes. So madam chair may please explain because all of us are wondering about acts of crime or acts of hate or not a criminal. So help us. So, it's

069funny going the state versus Stadler is the Florida Supreme Court case that I looked up on the penalty enhancement because what the statute is hate crimes is sort of a misnomer under the statute. People colloquially refer to hate crimes. The statute actually is evidencing prejudice while committing an offense reclassification. So, but colloially and it's known as a hate crime when you enhance the penalty under the criminal statutes. What the superintendent is saying is she wants to stay away from anything that's associated from criminal language within the code. So what she's saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, that acts of hate doesn't colloquially refer to the criminal statute. So she wants to use that in our code of conduct rather than language that could be associated with a criminal statute because that gives us the

070ability to take action. If we use the other term, it's taken out of our hands and in Yeah. hate crimes when or you know, let me read that again. Evidencing prejudice while committing an offense. That's something that the SRO is going to be the one who determines. They're going to say, let's say it's a fight, and that would be a probably a either a first-degree misdemeanor or third degree felony. and let's say that the fight was caused because, you know, they were targeting somebody on the basis of their race or their national origin. The the SRO could then say, "I'm enhancing the charge up from the first degree misdemeanor up to the thirdderee felony because I think it was caused by bias." That's what's done by the SRO or law enforcement. That's separate and apart

071from what we do under the code of conduct. Okay. Do you remember Phil? Oh, I'm sorry. I actually wasn't done. I had one more thing. I'm so sorry. Oh, it's okay. Remember, I'm so sorry. No, it's fine. this was referenced. This is this it does tie in, but we can talk about it later if it doesn't tie in enough, but that dress code piece where it talks about hate speech on clothing. How is that tying into like how is that going to tie into this? And can should we? Yeah, it's in the as a violation of the dress code if somebody wears hate speech. But again, that's going to be a case- by case determination as to what it is. If I feel fairly comfortable if somebody rolls in with a swastika shirt that we're

072going to find that is a violation of the dress code and that, you know, somebody's wearing an article of hate on their clothing. but that's going to be a case by case deter determination on the basis of what we see on the article of clothing and what's the consequence of violating the dress code. Oh, I think that's a is that a level two? I think don't give me a second. Mickey had Yeah, Mickey Joiner obviously knows that better than me, so I'm going to defer to her. it's going to be a level one or a level two. It depends on how many times they have violated dress code. So, so I think there's a discrepancy there too that we should look at if we're with respect to hate speech, if that's a level one or

073level two, Dr. Vasquez. So, if they wear it once and we indicate you need to, you know, take that off, it's a level one. If they wear it more than that, they come back a second time, it would be a level two. And I'm assuming if it happens more then they elevate that to a higher offense where they are not following. So our dress code comes from state statute and so does the consequences. So if we're talking about violating dress code is going to be a one or two. It won't go beyond a two. You would have to code it something else. Okay. And I'm and I'm going to give a situation that might annoy you, but let's just let's just say that we had a hundred kids come in to make a statement by

074wearing some type of, you know, swastika or Nazi, you know, something on their shirts is we're just saying that's a level one. Not necessarily. If it causes a disruption, then it gets elevated. But if it's, you know, one's child that has the and I'll give an example that goes way back probably 10 years if not a little bit more. We had a situation at East River High School where there was a situation with a flag at a pep rally and they were told that it was causing a disruption. So they took the flags. and then there was a counter because some of the students at that time wore clothing that had the Confederate flag and nothing happened to those students. And so when it it depends on what happens as a result of what they

075are wearing typically. and thank goodness we don't have a lot of it, but if they're wearing something that's inappropriate, if it causes a disruption, it gets elevated. But if it there is no disruption, they're just told you can't wear that. Here's a shirt or call and have somebody bring you something different. This is the part I'm I'm struggling with, but I'll I'll let my other board member speak. Thank you. All right, member Felder. Thank you. I've listened to board members and this has been a quite interesting discussion and it needs to be we need to discuss it and I don't think that we're going to readily solve this very quickly because one of the things that I'm concerned with is people develop their thoughts or their opinions based on what they've been taught. of what

076they've seen, of what, they've experienced. And we can't control people's understanding of what they understand about situations, whether it's online, whether it's from their parents, whether it's on television. But because we are an entity that is in the business of educating, we must allow students that freedom to be to educate them and then we do the best that we can to present the best evidence so they can come to a conclusion. But even if we curtail and we what we try to do is when they become productive adult citizens, we're hoping that what we've impressed upon them will generate to them becoming wonderful adults. But sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works in the opposite and we can no longer control that. And I I don't want and I'm not going to allow myself to get

077bogged down with people's or children's a parents interpretation of what they understand because I will spend my a whole I don't have I don't have a kind of time. My time is too precious because that's all I got. So I'll do my best as an educator to facilitate the learning but then I have to leave that up to you how you interpret it. One of the things that board member Vanos talked about and I think it's kind of other board members say something about the dress code. I'm just going to share an incident that happened years ago and I'm sure the code of condon that is probably changed since then. It was when I was teaching at Dr. Phillips. the students had a shirt that said it's a black thing and you won't understand it.

078And on the shirt was Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad, Harry Tubman, Oprah Winfrey, Nelson Mandela, Tusant, and Marcus Garvey, and, Rosa Parks. So, one of the APS, told the student to go to the office and that the shirt that he had on was offensive. And being the teacher that I was in those days, I said, "What happened?" And say, "Well, we were sus I'm getting suspended because I'm wearing this shirt." So, I said, "Who made the shirt?" And he said, "You know, some people made it." So, I talked to a couple of teachers of color at Dr. Phillips and said, "you know, the children are getting suspended for wearing this shirt." And they said, "What?" And I asked the little boy, I said, "Well, listen. How much these shirts cost?" Said, " $18 or 12?" I

079said, "Okay, come to my room tomorrow and I want you to buy these shirts." Some of us going to buy shirts. I said, "On Friday, we're going to wear them. We're going to wear them with you." So on Friday, we wear the shirts. And AP that suspended the students said to me, "Miss Felder, why are you wearing that shirt?" I said, "I'm so glad you asked." What do you mean it's a black thing? I wouldn't understand. I said, "Exactly." I said, "If you know history, there's no way that Elijah Muhammad would have a meeting with Oprah Winfrey, with Sirjournal Truth, with Marcus Garvey at the same time because these are various genres. These people are dead. So unless they were talking about a black issue. So now I believe as as Bamarini has explained to

080us that was a violation of their rights because did not it did not start a riot. The children just were expressing themselves. However, as some of you have already mentioned, if somebody wore a swatch stick, I had a student and I was doing Romeo and Juliet and they had to make banners. He put a swat stick on this banner. The banner was beautiful. So, I called him up. I said, "Precious, why do you have the swat sticker on Romeo and Juliet?" So, this is a different genre. I love swat stickers. I said, "Listen, I'm not attacking your creativity because the banner is beautiful, but swat stickers were not used in the 14th century. So, I need for you to redo this banner and take the SWAT sticker off. Now, it did not start a riot.

081Most of the children kind of didn't know what was going on, but I'm just saying in my opinion, that was a teachable moment. That young man wanted the SWAT sticker and and was a proponent of the ideologies behind swat stickers. And I didn't attack that. I just dealt with the fact that this I'm teaching Romeo and Juliet a play that was written in the 15th century about the story that happened in the 13th or 14th century and swastikers were not at that time. So it's my hope as a board and facilitators of education that we would allow our students to have the freedom of speech. But again because we are about governance we have to make sure that what they do we govern it very carefully. So I think this conversation is very interesting and

082it's very much needed. But again, I it's a very not just a gray area. is a very thin line because we need to make sure again and I just try to I'm doing this because I need to make sure my mind has it intact that when we deal with disciplinary procedures as it relates to the behavior of students in our schools. We need to do what we can as we put together a policy because we're gonna have to put together some type of policy regarding this so that parents won't feel that their children are being targeted and that other and then either way that they won't feel like their children being targeted and they don't feel like they're being targeted because of their ethnicity. But we do also need to understand that some thinking of

083children and parents we cannot change. We cannot control but within our jurisdiction of our schools I think we do have that control and I just wanted to share that thought with you. Thank you. All right. Member Felder. member for I'm sorry superintendent you like to be recognized. Thank you. I just want to go back to board members board member Vanel's discomfort. We can go back and take a look. There are level defenses in statute as it relates to dress code. And so I'm I'm reading your body language and what you said to me that you really would like clothing and if they're wearing something that constitute a hateful act or hate speech that it be elevated. Am I okay? We'll do that. Miss Palmer, you're recognized. Thank you. just wanted to give the board there's

084actually the dress code is addressed in statute. And so what it says is each district school board shall adopt a dress code policy that prohibits a student while on school grounds of a public school during a regular school day from wearing any clothing that exposes underwear or body parts in a decent or vulgar manner or that disrupts the orderly learning environment. So back to we're having a disruption. Any student who violates the dress code policy is subject to the following disciplinary actions. For a first offense, the student shall be given a verbal warning and the principal shall call the student's parent or guardian. For a second offense, the student is ineligible to participate in any extracurricular activity for a period of time not to exceed 5 days and the school principal shall meet with the

085student's parent or guardian. For a third or subsequent offense, a student shall receive an inschool suspension for a period not to exceed three days, and the student is ineligible to participate in any extracurricular activity for a period not to exceed 30 days. And the school principal shall call the parent or guardian and send the parent or guardian a written letter regarding the students in school suspension and ineligibility to participate in extracurricular activities. That's the hard part because they've spec they being the legislature has specifically delineated penalties for the code of conduct. That's 1607. Member Fant. Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to go back to the training after we have an offense which I think is great. We do that with drugs, alcohol, like different offenses like that. but I believe we could do just

086call it like the golden rule training and it's more generic I think requesting that our staff hone in on every single item or you know piece of history or community group or I think just a generalized training which I'm sure we could come up with that ourselves or find something great online but something that just reminds students that your actions really do have consequences and that we have to stop before we do something and think is this going to harm someone else? is this something that really needs to be stated? that type of thing. So I think we could easily do that and not make it exactly specific to each group but more of a generalized golden rule training. I also think anyone can say that anything that they do is political. which is a

087little concerning to me. It's to me it feels like a loophole. so once you realize like oh wow I'm kind of in trouble for this. Well actually it was political so just kind of my two cents on that. if we do create the acts of hate offense, how are we defining that exactly? And I think that's what we needed to discuss. because what may feel like an act of hate to one group may not feel that way to another. And so I think we do need to have some more specifications like was there vandalism involved or was there you know an intent to hurt some maybe they pushed somebody. So, it's not really like there wasn't physical harm, but they were you know, because I think isn't the hate crime, you have to actually physically

088harm somebody. Correct. Is that what it is or no? Yes, Mr. Pomerani. So, the I'm going to do it because I can't remember. Evidencing prejudice while committing offense, it's not limited to just hurting somebody. That's mostly where it gets employed. like if there's a if there's an assault or if there's a battery and it was done because of somebody's race or ethnicity or national origin, that's mostly where it gets employed. But it could be a property offense, you know, but you know, depending on how big the property offense is. If you there's a difference between destroying something that's tens of thousands of dollars and destroying something that's5 to$10, I think it's going to be treated by law enforcement in two separate and distinct ways. interesting. So, I guess we would need to figure out how

089we're defining it then because I would I feel like this could be twisted in any way. And so, I think just having some clear definition so that our staff knows how to clearly figure this out. And then what you go ahead and then I'm going to think of my last thought here. Dr. Vasquez. Yeah. so part of the research that Alcavia did one of the districts does have I believe a definition and so we can actually look our attorneys will look at the legal lease and try and make it you know language that we all understand and we'll bring that back to the board as part of the revision to the code and but we'll we'll look to what's already there. and again I want to go back to it's not always cut and dry

090when there are multiple things that are taking place. So as Mr. Palarini mentioned, you know, there could be a brawl that causes a lockdown that had incendiary language that leads you to believe that this was not political, that it was a hate crime. And so our team works with the schools to ensure that the cases are thoroughly vetted and that we get to the heart of you know what the offense is in our code. and these are unfortunately not not as simple as just having that definition because inevitably there'll be a situation where it doesn't quite meet what our language is and then that's where it gets muddy. member from I thought of my last thing. when something is vandalized or say even somebody takes somebody else's phone and it they purposely are like trying

091to ruin it, what do we do? do we require that student then buys a new phone or because like in this case I think this because we weren't not allowed to give the flag back. I believe this student should be required to purchase a new flag to return that sorry as part of our consequences we do not require kids to pay for things because everybody can't afford to pay for things. So that's just not part of our consequences to require restitution. That's unfortunate because I think when a student realizes, wow, if I do this, I would be required to pay that back or I mean in the real world, you're going to have to pay for things. and so I think we I feel like that should be a different consequence than or an added

092consequence. that a parent would need to pay for that and maybe parents would start saying, "Hey, maybe I should educate my children better to be kind instead of ruining somebody else's materials." if I can I would just caution a little bit against that because even I also oversee truency and there are provisions in the truency statute that allow us to find parents when their children have missed multiple days and the courts have strongly advised us like that is like a absolute last resort and I think it starts off as like $2 a day and they have us let that be the very very very very very very very last resort because of what Miss Joiner has said about the ability of one parent to be able to pay and the inability of another parent being

093able to pay those fines. so then can we do something where if a student is not able to pay then they do community service or maybe that's part of it is no nobody pays and you do community service and something of that sort. I just think like we need to have some sort of consequence where kids aren't just like well it was political and then they walk away and a whole group of people feel or even just one student feels like they've been targeted. I don't know. I think that's really honestly what's lacking in this world is we need more parents to step up, discipline your kids. We wouldn't have these kind of issues if parents knew how to parent again and we stopped with this like soft parenting and you know maybe when they

094grow up they'll it's a phase they're going through. I'm sorry. You do your work at when they're little and when they're older you are going to love having your children. You're going to love having your teenagers. They are well behaved and respectful when you raise them with respect. So my two cents. Thank you. Thank you, Member FR. okay, let me dovetail on that because, I do think there's a difference between a natural consequence. One of y'all have heard me talk about, my experience as a parent, where my kids were in a co-op preschool, and part of that came with having to read books and understand different parenting styles. The best book I ever read was called How to Raise Self-Relanti Children in a Self-indulgent World. And the main premise, and it's nothing new to anybody

095today, but it's it seemed like such an obvious eye openener for me and changed the way I parented my kids was look for natural consequences. Don't protect your kids from natural consequences. Wherever there's a natural consequence, rely on that as opposed to some other form of discipline. The natural consequence is you've destroyed somebody or damaged something that somebody owns and because of our system where we have to keep it because it's evidence, you've taken it away from them completely. That's different than assigning a dollar amount to every day you miss school because I'm not really sure how other than it's it's painful and I don't want to lose money. It's not exactly a natural consequence. So I think it might be a lot easier to defend having a cost associated with the destruction or or

096stealing whatever it might be somebody else's things. But anyway, that would be just something to to look into a little more unless you have an immediate answer for why it won't work, which I'm sure there's a million legal reasons. Go ahead. I don't have an immediate answer, but I would say that if this was picked up by if the SRO would have moved forward, then there would have been a consequence for restitution. Okay, thank you for for clarifying that. So, not not like I'm totally okay with that, but I appreciate your clarification. so one of the things I this is our last time, not unless we schedule another time, but this is the only time anybody who might be watching that the board can have this conversation to try to give some direction to the

097superintendent and her team to draft something that hopefully comes back and enjoys the support of the majority of the board. So that's why the distinctions and the depth of the conversation is more important. So one of the things I'm a little confused about so in the document we have two documents and board docs. The one document lists hate speech again in like the kind of table of contents and then the other only other place I see it listed is clothing must not state imply or depict hate speech. So the reason I'm I'm focused on that is superintendent when when you mentioned that once it's defined as hate speech it's then criminal and as I'm understanding that kind of takes it into a different realm and out of our hands. So I'm not sure if we're

098using the right term on the clothing and it's something you might want to look at because does that mean if a if a student has some Go ahead. I'm sorry. I think the statute delineates the clothing, right? It's it's separate and I'm going to defer to the team from any of the other and that's why it the clothing and I asked John I'm assuming it doesn't cause a disruption. Well, the language includes a disruption. So, we're somewhat limited is my understanding what we can do. If it's clothing, if it's anything else, we do have more flexibility and the ability to add different offenses and at the different levels is within our purview, but not with the clothing. Am I correct? Correct. Okay. the second the second thing that what I'm hearing again I don't have

099a chance I'd love to go back and listen to this here this conversation over again. So I may have be getting this wrong but so if it's a hate crime what I'm understanding is it has to result in some other violation. And the reason I draw that is I think it was something you said Mr. Pomearini that it's a hate crime when something else is going on and it's then attributed by the perpetrator as being related. So it would seem like that something else has to happen. Yeah. And so that leaves me back in this place where the fact that I've I've done something that I intentionally did to create fear in people in my school. I've deliberately caused fear and it there's no campuswide dis disruption. There's a whole lot of pain and fear,

100but I can't identify some tangible violation in the code. So, it's okay is what I'm hearing. And I'm just struggling. I'm back to isn't there some other term we can use that allows us to have some sort of a disciplinary consequence without using a term that's already been defined as it's protected by this or it's protected by that or you have to cross over this line. Is there can we create some other area and then let the courts figure out why they do or don't like it? At least that buys us time. I It's a ridiculous way of looking at it. But so I just want to be clear. I don't think you guys think that I'm saying this. I don't think that, you know, things that make people fear are okay. Any I'm talking

101about from a legal permissibility or not standpoint. I you know in our code we have that section four on hate speech. Quite frankly, given the discussion here and given our further research into this, I probably want to not use the term hate speech because it's because it's too closely associated with the criminal version. Like I think I would want to like modify that language to acts of hate. come up with a definition because what it what we have in there all students attending school in OCPS shall be treated according to a unitary code which applies equally regarding regardless of race, color, net, religion, age, sex, national origin, marital status, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity or expression, language spoken, homelessness or any other reason prohibited by law. And it says the use of hate

102speech will not be tolerated and violations will be subject to this code. So, I would like to probably change that to acts of hate, define that a little bit better, and we'll work through language on that, and then have level three acts of hate in the code as a separate offense, and then a level four as a separate offense with the caveat that we all understand that we're going to have to look at it from the standpoint of does the act of hate constitute protected First Amendment activity? and that's going to be something the superintendent will engage my staff in looking at whenever we have one of these offenses come up. But I think going forward for you all, I think acts of hate that needs to be def, you know, put in the code.

103We need to have a definition of it and then put it in level three and level four and bring it back to you all for consideration. And I would suspect that what we'll do is sort of like what we've done with other things is once we come up with that language, we'll circulate it to you all beforehand so you can digest it before we get to our next work session on this which is I think sometime in May. In May. Yes. May. Okay. So, Mr. P, the part that we're not getting to there. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I just want to u point out that Sorry. Can I be recognized? that we've had similar instances happen before. they are we coded based on obviously the substantial disruption. but for example, we did have a situation

104earlier this year. So I'm and I'm providing this context so it will give you some sort of ease. we did have a situation earlier this year right after the election where we had a student send out a text message to African-American students stating that they were going to be picked up by a bus and taken to a plantation in so many words. and that was a result of obviously his political views. However, that did rise to the level of it being hate speech. So that student actually two two months was it two months before that he made a sort of similar reference and he was disciplined giving counseling told that language was not appropriate to be had in school and then two months later after the election he did it again. So the first time

105it was coded under a 3Q and since he made similar speech again it was coded as a level four. So we have had these instances. It's not like this current situation is oneoff. This has happened before. And so we again when it initially happens depending on if it causes a substantial disruption like for instance in when he first made the language it did not so it was coded under A3Q he was provided counseling and when he did it again it rose to the level of a level four help me out I'm sorry A3Q is yes it's otherense because what I'm trying to understand is Well, the 3Q is other serious misconduct. Okay. Okay. So, and I don't disagree that should be a serious misconduct, but I still struggle with the court's kind of distinction of

106what's political and what's not political and what's protected and not protected. I don't know. It's cuz I know a couple that should that should never have happened. Then I think that's serious misconduct. I don't mean to I know a couple of you were saying like, "But what if he just says it's political?" Again, this was based on his political affiliation, but he was still disciplined because that language that he used was determined to go above and beyond. So it was not just rather that was his defense that it was political. It went above and beyond. So, I just want to let you guys know that they can claim in certain situations that it is political, but the team will determine that lang in this situation, the team did determine that language that he used went

107above and beyond. So, they can't just claim the defense that, oh, it's political. Okay. Is it Miss Haynes or Hannes? Miss Hannes. Hannes. Hannes. Hannes with an N. Okay. Thank you. that's really helpful. Thank you. because that what was the term you called it? serious misconduct. Other serious misconduct. Other serious misconduct could possibly be the place where something like this falls without defining it as a hate crime or hate speech. I appreciate you bring that door a level three and also under a level four. Okay. Okay. and then that goes to also in that case, you didn't have to have the school shut down. You didn't have to have fire rescue run in and try to stop a fire that doesn't exist. You don't have any of those things, but we still consider that serious

108misconduct, right? But I know it's going to come into is it protected speech? but if it's against a protected class, can we consider whether or not attacks acts that create fear among a protected class may not enjoy protected speech? I don't know. I think protected class ought to rise above protected speech, but just food for thought. I think yeah I would really like to look at that distinction before I say yay or nay I'm going to call on other board members I do for anybody that's tuned in and for the specters I do want to clarify one thing that Mr. Pomearini and our team, their their hearts are in the right place. They are not saying this because they disagree with us. They're saying it because they believe that we need to have their professional

109legal advice, but I do think it's important because we seem to be having a debate with you. and that's not really what it is. We're having a debate with the courts. some of us are. I think most of us are. But, moving on. Member Gallo, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, a few things. I know that we've talked a lot about kindness and the golden rule. It seems like that's should be tendants of the resiliency training that we do because in order to be resilient, you have to understand different viewpoints and you have to understand different opinions and it's okay that they're different from yours. and kids need to be taught that's okay. It's It's okay to disagree. It's okay to not like what someone else says. as long as it's not hurtful or

110hateful. But I feel like we're raising a society that can't disagree civily that it's got to turn into a form of hate. It's got to it to resistance. I don't know. I just feel like that they need they need more training on on different viewpoints and that it's okay to be different. It should it's respected. it's reviled. Like it's a good thing that we have such a diverse country, not a bad thing. the other thing I want to bring, I know we were talking a little bit about restitution. And so I'm going to do a little push back there because we do do restitution. We do it on our laptops. We do it on our library books. We do it on our books. If they're destroyed, you have to pay for that cost of that

111book. You have to pay for the cost to repair your computer. if you harm a library book, you have to pay to replace that library book. So, we do have forms of restitution within Orange County Public Schools. So, I don't know why we can't have restitution for defacing an item that belongs to the school. I feel like it's no different than defacing a book. and those parents can't pay either. And we don't then we don't let them go to prom. We don't let them go to homecoming. We don't let them walk across the stage. Like there's certain other things that we do. Oh, the superintendent saying we don't do that anymore. No, no, we cannot we cannot we can push to have the child pay, but we cannot deny report cards the graduation because they

112have outstanding fines, which is But we can we cannot allow them to go to prom. We cannot allow them to go to pep rallies. We cannot allow them to go to homecoming because we've done it before. We have however if it is challenged we would have to take a good hard look at it because there some of them are not there's a term and that's not coming to me that are like not required but but like a pep rally is not something that you're entitled to that's like extracurricular but if a child has financial constraint raints and the board has had that conversation with the devices because the district picks up the cost of the vast majority of all of the fines and the fees and so yes we try to recoup but we cannot

113deny certain things to a child because of money. I just want to make sure that's clear and I appreciate that. Dr. V as well. I guess my point is we do have restitution. So we could apply a fine for the destruction of property and then whether they have the means or the ability to pay for that deal with that on a separate case by case basis kind of like we do with the books and the computers. I think that makes sense to me. and then the other thing, and I'm sure that we have one, but disruption, campus disruption and disruption that really elevates a lot of situations up to a different level. Is that defined, Mr. Pomerani? It's in your level four and it Hold on. I'm getting there. It's because my point my point

114being is what I want to make sure of is that disruption isn't subjective and up to interpretation or up to the will of the principal or the school that there has to be some level of consistency and that consistency should lie within the definition. It's for I and I'm getting there. Well, and while you're doing that, I'm going to continue. So yeah, in relation to and I know we've kind of flushed this out and I think we've come up with some solutions, but I know that Mr. Palmerini read us the definition of the from for the student the student code of conduct for the dress code. But that you know what is in statute is just the bare minimum. That doesn't mean that we can't go above the statute. And we have we have with

115Baker Acts. We've had with other things where they've people have said, "Well, it's in statute." Well, that's great. We have to incorporate that definition, but that doesn't mean that we can't go above what the statute's telling us. It just means we can't go below it. So a statute does not prevent us as a board from raising not the stakes but but raising the consequences of an action especially if we feel that the apparel being worn is offensive to any group of individuals. Mr. Palm ready. So, four I disruption on campus major disruptive behavior that poses a serious threat to the learning environment, health, safety, or welfare of others. Examples of major disruptions include inciting a riot or initiating a false alarm. And then we also cite to the Florida administrative code rule that says this

116offense may include but is not limited to disruptive behavior that causes the bus to stop for safety, closing the cafeteria, pulling a fire alarm, preventing other students from proceeding to the next class. So we give examples. We define it. It's not all-encompassing. You know, a lot of times that phrase is going to be utilized. We'll apply it to a situation and we'll say, "Do we think it fits in there?" Yes or no. So we have that definition for a major campus disruption. With respect to the statutory argument, the statute says the offense shall be as follows, right? So I understand we've gone above and beyond statutory floors before. You know, it's not the ceiling, it's the floor. I would want to look back at the you know legislative history to the extent on that statute

117to see if they meant that to be exclusive. I get antsy whenever I see the penalty shall be as follows. Shall is of course the mandatory term that says this is what it is. So I would want to see it's still the minimum like we shall we shall is just must. So we must do that and as long as we're because there's also statute that gives us the right to create our policies for our for our schools. So the shall in that shouldn't circumvent my ability to set policy as a board member except for when it does then the legislature except for when it does and sometimes the legislature does usurp your authority. We're going to discuss an instance of that tonight in my attorney report where it says you have to do something and

118you shall do it. So, I want to go back and look at that specific statute to see if there's any wiggle room there on that. it just I understand what you're saying. Sometimes sometimes shall means shall and sometimes shall means may depending on the context. I've actually seen cases that say that which drives me insane as a lawyer because shall always mean shall but I got it and I'll look it up. Thank you, Mr. Pomearini. And then as far as disruption, if I understood the definition correctly, a major campus disruption is just really really anything that impedes the movements of students from one area to the other. That's what all of those definitions seem to be. Causing a riot, false alarm, preventing kids from getting to another class, closing a cafeteria. All that's present. So

119maybe we need to include that language as well. Just any any disruption that impedes movement of students from one area of the school to another could be classified as a major disruption or a disruption. So that is a cessor definition. So we cannot change that particular definition. So we can't we can't add to it. No, sometimes that's when shall means shall. there al there also is a level 4T which is other major and that one is any serious harmful incident resulting in the need for law enforcement consultation not previously classified. Okay. So maybe we could I don't know. And I guess my last thing is I know that we have a statute on hate and it does require a person to be arrested. So I was wondering if and I think we've talked about this.

120I think this is where we're landed. I was getting a little confused. but we can define what we believe to be hate speech on like apparel or whatever and it doesn't have to meet that thresho threshold of being arrested, right? It could just be we could define it in our own way and there could be consequences. Okay, I'm getting for those of you who are listening, I'm getting headshakes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, once again, the caveat being we have to analyze it under the first amendment to see if there's an issue. But yes, you can define acts of hate separately and distinctly from the way the criminal statute deals with it. Great. And I agree. I think it was member Vanos who said, "I don't like the confusion or just the vagueness of, you

121know, being political versus spewing hate. I think that they're so closely aligned right now, especially in our society. it's really hard to tell the difference. And I don't know how we can delineate that in our student code of contact and be consistent across the county, but anything that we could do to make it as clear as possible because this is this is it's just not acceptable and we can't raise a whole generation of people believing that they can spew hatred and that it's okay. Thank you. Thank you, Member Galla. member Bird. Thank you. yeah, I just again am going to go back to none of this matters if our legal team does not identify something a student does as acts of hate. even if we put acts of hate in our in our code. And

122I think it's really important to understand because I've heard board members say, you know, that if this if the child like talking about this particular case that the child did this out of hate for this group of people, they caused such fear in the group of people, which which he did. I'm and let me be clear. I am not defending at all I at all what was done but I'm just trying to get how we got to where we are. but the thing is this child the way I understand it is this child did did not it wasn't in reference to the issue the event that happened in 2000. From what I understand this child doesn't even know about this event that happened in 2000. That's neither here nor there. But this child was doing

123this in his his expressing his frustration with the country identified by that flag and what their that country is doing in a war overseas right now. And that was what he was expressing his his hate his anger over what that country's country whose flag that was what that country is doing in a war overseas. Not at all that flag he didn't put it together like should have. And that is where the education piece needs to come in. That flag is more than just a country symbol. that flag is a symbol for an entire group of people that they hold very dear and that when he did that it it caused fear and terror and all those things to that group of people. That was what he did not put together. He was looking at it

124as a flag for the country. That was what I'm not saying it's right or wrong but that is how it was interpreted through his witness through the statements by our legal team. So because that was a you know his identification of the country and what a conflict that is happening in the world right now that is all political that it was not at all towards a group of people. I think had he said in his statement anything that identified, you know, the Jewish community, that or the group of people that he had hate for or any kind of like if he had expressed any of that in any of his statements or if that was where that came from that it would have been treated as hate. And had he had that been identified by

125the police, that would have been a hate crime because it was a crime, vandalism, he did he did do vandalism. So had it been a hate vandalism because I looked all this up and there's cases, you know, people destroying cars and you know carving if you do that, you know, with a key key a car with something that's hate, you can be that can be a hate crime and it takes the vandalism up a notch. So if the police had identified the same thing, it would have been taken up a notch, but it was because of that. I I just think that's really important for everyone to understand because it wasn't like it was we were ignoring that it was the group of people. I don't know. I'm sorry. I felt like that just needed

126a little more clarification just based on some other comments. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Vice Chair. Member Vanos. Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the conversation that we're having today. I just want to go down the the technical the dress code strand because I think it is important. I mean if you look at statute 106.07D1. So just for clarification, it doesn't this the hate speech on the clothing is not part of the statute. The statute just says we adopt a dress code policy you know really that prohibits people from exposing their underwear or body parts in a vulgar manner or disrupts the orderly learning environment. So the piece about hate speech on a clothing is not in the statute. So what I would suggest we do is we we take if if we

127define acts of hate as a level three or level four offense, we include in that wearing something that depicts hate speech and put that in the level three or the level four. It doesn't it doesn't even need to be in the dress code policy. Therefore, we don't have to follow the you know offenses that they outline in the statute. Can we do that, Mr. Pomearini? Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm pondering it. It's, you know, it's the old you don't do indirectly what you can't do directly principle that conflicts with, you know, you're looking at a statute that says or that disrupts the orderly learning environment, but it doesn't specifically refer to, you know, a article of hate on clothing. So therefore, that can be taken outside of the dress code statute and the and the prescribed

128penalties for the dress code. That would be along with what member Gallow asked me to look at. That would be something I would want to look at more in depth and have an answer for you rather than try to to wing one here on the fly because I think that's something that I want to make sure that we're on solid legal footing. The last thing I want to do for all of you is to wing an answer up here and then all of a sudden I have the state calling Dr. Vasquez saying, "Hey, you guys have done something inappropriate in your code of conduct." I don't want to and I don't want to put you all in that position either. So, let me do some research on the law on that. Okay. Thank you. I

129appreciate it. And just like the chair said, it's just this is just our opportunity to have the full discussion. So, I just feel like this is the time to bring these issues up. But yeah, definitely not asking for answers on the spot. But thank you. All right. Thank you, Member Vanos. Member Fant. so I just wanted to clarify, do we have anything that would be would help us define like a partial disruption? Like is there some sort of offense if somebody has like partially disrupted class? Like to me this is a partial disruption in the sense that maybe the whole school wasn't disrupted but that whole wing of classes. So last year we added a level three 3C that covers classroom disruption. Okay. And does that include like hallway? Oh that's this was happen in

130the hallway not like in the class. No it's just the classroom. Could we There wasn't a dision. No, it wasn't a disruption in the hallway either. Not for that particular incident that we're talking about today. So where kids aren't like pointing at that and nothing just walked by. okay. And then I don't know the whole thing is very frustrating. I mean, I think as a parent, as we've heard from the parents of the student who it was his flag, I think it's I think there's just inconsistencies and it is frustrating to see where you know, one thing might be labeled you know, a level four and then the next thing is labeled a level two or kind of dismissed or I just think we need to make sure we're just being as consistent as possible.

131With that being said, I will say what you guys have done with the code of conduct has been so incredible. I mean the fact that this is the only topic where it is in it is a huge topic. but the fact that this is it is pretty outstanding. I love how when we're looking at the code, there's a code definition that's like legal ease and then you've simplified it to like normal people terms. And I think that's huge. It's super helpful. especially even for like English language learners, parents who are trying to read it and I mean if if I'm a native English language person and I'm reading the code definition and kind of you know trying to understand what's going on and then just that simplified definition is huge. I know that took a

132lot of work. but I mean every meeting we had if you ask was there anything that needed to be switched I really I feel like it's it's worked well. the definitions that we have the offenses that have been created. I think we've done an excellent job. This is a great discussion to have and to see how we can really kind of hone in on this. I pray we never have the an issue like this again. But really, I think it goes back to educating our students and helping to remind them that you know, what we're seeing online, on our phones, in the news, it can rile us up. but also to look around at our friends and see that, you know, we may have differences, but we're all living together and we're all like, let's

133try to be kind and you know, keep that golden rule the number one. So, but thank you all seriously for all your hard work and everything that you do. I appreciate it. Thank you, member F. Member Galla. So, I actually wanted to ask about a different topic. So, if there's still people that want to discuss this, you can come back to me. Let let me one question I have I'm trying to think of the term for it. something justice restorative justice. So part of restorative justice is that process of of bringing people together to to talk about how one's actions affected another's actions. And so without even without being able to even if an action like this is determined not to be hate this or hate that but the effect harmed other people does that

134is that something that can fall under restorative justice practices which I think is what we're already talking about is it's at a minimum it's a incredible learning opportunity an opportunity to understand that whether intentional or not, words matter and it's important to think before you say and then to think about if the shoe were on the other foot. I mean those conversations are important restorative justice. Your thoughts there? Yeah, I was actually thinking about that when we were talking about the education piece. I'm going to defer to Karen Ferno to my recollection of restorative justice. And while in this case there was a child the child's flag, my understanding is that maybe it could be used, but the structure for it aligns itself when it's more targeted at one student as opposed to what has

135been stated that this was political speech and not aimed at this one child. That's correct. So we use restorative practices in all of our schools. All of our schools have people trained in restorative practices. It is part of our consequences for our code and in situations. One is students need to agree to come together to have that conversation. But we are have our staff trained in how to facilitate those conversations for exactly what we're talking about here, which is understanding coming to an understanding, hearing the other person's point of view. and then therefore having those conversations to hopefully educate on differences and different perspectives. And so that's the goal of restorative practice. We use it in all of our schools. All of our schools have people trained in that process. All right. Thank you. and

136you know I looked at the file on this particular case and obviously I can't talk about the details. it sounds like you have more knowledge than I do about kind of for instance, the consideration that was given taking it to the SRO. but when when you mentioned one child versus another, I don't know I whether or not the student who did this knows the student who put the flag up there. those things can matter as well in trying to figure out is it political speech or was it intended to be more personal? Right. Without again going into great detail or more detail about this case. it's it's one of the most difficult cases we've had this year. All right. If if not the most difficult because intent Mhm. All right. The intent and what we

137have as evidence of intent is what we have gone by. And superintendent, I'm I'm I didn't mean to like challenge or I'm just saying would the would that be a factor when you're looking at something as as to whether what you might interpret as intent whether. Absolutely. So, Alcavia gave an example. If there were other situations, other acts that this child had done u whether it was toward another student, it was you know similar in trying to give u his opinion about politics. All of that goes into the conversation about intent and then the consequences. One of the benefits of centralizing discipline has been the ability to really bring people together and analyze it and schools can feel that you know the outcome really has been discussed and we've looked at it from all angles.

138and so in this particular case I believe the board received a copy of a letter was very clear. and you know we could discuss again the intent but what we have what we have before us is what we've been able to use to determine intent and that's why I think it's very difficult you know and you've mentioned it right you can say something but what's in your heart what's we're going to assume that you know the sincerity on the part of the child we're going to assume that there have been you know lessons learned from this that they understand that you know you're you're you might say this is your way of expressing your political views. But again, the consequences of that action on other people and hopefully this has been, you know, a lesson

139learned in in that at the school and certainly for us the idea of how we need to broaden the education, broaden the awareness as we continue to have an environment not just, you know, in Florida but across the country where so much of what's on social media, so much of what's in the news is antagonistic in nature. You not seeing a lot of examples or at least depicted. Maybe it's happening behind the scenes where people are trying to work differences out. That's not what our children are seeing. That's not what they're being exposed to. And so we have to take a look at how can we weave that into how we're educating the whole child. And I appreciate the board's conversation on this. thank you so much for your comments. We really do have an

140incredible team and they work so hard to make sure that we have consistency. They work hard that we are fair that we realize that these are, you know, young men and women or that they're children. And sometimes, you know, they make a mistake. they're not thinking clearly and the board has been very clear that's what you want. We don't want to be punitive. but sometimes it's hard when you're you're trying to teach a lesson and it doesn't feel like the lesson has been learned or has been taught. And that's that's sadly what's happened in this case. And I really pray that we don't have another instance like this and that some good is going to come out of out of this horrific situation and that we're going to be able to tap into some of

141our partners to be able to help with that education piece. We're going to be able to have the code have more clarification. And I also if the board's will is that we look at restitution. I mean, I remember where we had, you know, children would go and clean tables, you know, in the cafeteria or there pick up trash and I don't remember what board, but there was a point where the board was like, "We're not doing that. That's not appropriate." And so then we backed off of it. So, if the will of the board is that we look at restitution, whether it's by way of money or by way of act, we certainly can incorporate that into our code. We just need consensus to be able to bring that back to you. member FR on

142this same thing or Okay. And then I'll come back to you, member Gallo. Go ahead. No, I just like to say I think that's an excellent idea. I think students need to understand that there are consequences and I mean I remember back in the day you'd stick you know you'd marker up your locker and you were scrubbing every locker on your in your hallway. and you definitely remembered okay I'm not going to do that again. talking in class. Do we all remember writing like I will not talk in class? Like I did not want to talk in class again because I did not want to write that for like a whole page. I'm not saying we're doing any of that. Not saying we're doing that. although it may help with kids handwriting. but I do

143think there are cases where we could absolutely do something to really help some sort of restitution. And I don't think it always necessarily needs to be monetary, but something where there is something where you know these students have a consequence where they go, you know, I don't think I want to do that again or they their eyes are open to see, wow, this is you know what I really what I did really had a huge impact and I should not have done that. so I would be in favor of bringing some of those restitutions back in. All right. All right. Thank you, member front. Member Gallo. Changing course. Hold on, Madam Chair. I'm sorry, Mr. Pomerani. Member Vanos, I've been sitting over here doing legal research. So, Senate Bill 228 in 2011 is what passed

144this statute. And I've looked at the staff analysis and let me read from it. This bill may potentially implicate First Amendment concerns. Courts have long held students do not lose their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. However, courts have also repeatedly affirmed the authority of states and school districts to prescribe and control conduct in schools. Mere regulation of clothing or dress is not constitutionally problematic. Rather, the court will review the restrictions in the context of whether the policy interferes with a constitutionally protected political viewpoint. So they have identified a constitutional issue in this bill and it was meant to cover situations with respect to whether or not student dress implicates political concerns. As a matter of fact, you know, likewise, courts have routinely denied the extensions of the first

145amendment protections and instances to which the policy restricts dress that cannot be shown to be political speech. But the converse of that is if it can be shown to be political speech then we're right back to where we are. So yes ma'am I mean I get that be because yeah I do think that sometimes what students work can be political speech though that wasn't really my question. My question was if we and I apologize if I wasn't clear, but I guess my question is if we determine that the language on the clothing is hate speech that is not protected as political speech, then can we treat it under a level three or level four with our, you know, acts of hate versus under the dress code? Does that make sense? Yeah. No, no, it that

146makes Okay. And I'm I think I misunderstood potentially what you were asking, so I apologize, but it does make sense from that standpoint. I think given the you this goes back to member Gallow's question too about whether or not this can be the statute's merely the floor and we can go above it. you know, I think if it's not politically protected speech and it's just an act of hate, we could probably do some things there. over and above what the statute probably says, but we, you know, I say that and I can't, of course, I have to give the lawyer caveatives. I can't guarantee that it doesn't get challenged and but you all, I have to give you that information. And I think we could probably do it, but I can't guarantee it 100%. Okay.

147But at a minimum, if we're going to do that, we do need to change that section because right now we were being consistent with that. Thank you. Good catch. Thank you. All right. Now, member Gallo, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. so in relation I'm just looking for a little guidance because I don't know that a change needs to be made, but this I've gotten this topic several times this year. In fact, I just got one recently into my inbox that I forwarded to to John. if so, we've had several instances when we look at bullying and whatnot where kids are bullying another child. Sometimes they report it. Sometimes the kid doesn't doesn't, the student doesn't just for fear of retaliation or whatever. But we do have instances where there's been a child that has

148been bullied possibly all year long. Bad things have happened to that student and then they retaliate because they've really had a belly full. They've had enough. They probably spoke to their parents and their parents was like, "Don't don't take it from a bully. Stand up to the bully." And then what's happening is then the consequence for the student who finally stood up to themselves. They get like a level three, a level four. I have a situation at a middle school where the child has a level four. What he did was wrong. I meant what he did was wrong, but he kind of reached his breaking point to do what he did. And now they're looking at level four and possibly being sent, you know, away to positive pathways. So I guess my question is this.

149when we know and there's witnesses that will show you that there was systemic bullying of not only this child but several different children students at that school and then one child is like I've had enough of you and retaliates which is not appropriate. Do we take that in consideration or is it just strictly black and white? What's in the student code of student contact? And I know that we I bring this up because we've had this conversation before about self-defense when you're on the ground, you push them off, and then both people get 10 days. You're like, "Wait, that's not fair. I'm just trying to not get pummeled over here." so I was just curious about what happens in those instances and if is it a case by case basis or is it just strictly

150black and white? Because if it's black and white, then maybe we need to have a further conversation. It's a case by case basis. Thank you. Because what we would do, we will look the school would do an investigation and we will look at the statements to determine if this has been an ongoing occurrence. We would also look at when it was reported. we would definitely want the school to complete a blunt harassment investigation. So all those factors will play into the consequence and if I had to defend myself that would play into that consequence also. So it's not black and white. It's not black and white. No. Okay. Thank you. I just want to make sure. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Although you just I was going to say I recognize you but

151I hope you're not going to open another can of worms. not that you opened one before but you did just open one. only only because one of the areas and I know this is such a two-edged sword but this board had concern initially that we were treating all acts of any physical nature acts kind of as equal even if it's in defense of yourself and the code has addressed that. and the other area that just I struggle I really struggle with this because there are times when a student is down being pummeled, there's no adults around and the student can defend themselves, but if any other student comes to their rescue, I think they're treated a as if they're the kid who who started it and not seen. it for what it was. And I

152as a mom who's taught my kids that you don't stand by and when I think of George Floyd and I can't get it out of my mind that everybody that was watching was upset, but nobody actually physically stepped in and there would have been consequences, but I don't know how you live with yourself for not stepping in. I my I don't know. I'm not physically capable of not stepping in. My mom isn't physically capable. My daughter I can't speak for my boys, but I know that we go into just I don't know a different state of mind that you just can't stand by. And I've told you the story about my twins with my daughter being wrestled to the ground and choked and her twin brother in the cafeteria. And the idea that he knew

153that he was not allowed to help his sister is just like it's just wrong. That's not what we want to teach our kids. So how do we address that in our code? How do we distinguish between the intent of a student to protect and potentially save another student's life versus the whether their intent is just to create an allout brawl? Can you help me there? So, when we're doing our investigation and hopefully there's video, but if a student goes in to help a student out where I'm pulling somebody off and I have to pin him to the ground or I pin him to the wall, as long as there's no punches being thrown and I'm actually going in to help stop a fight, I would say that kid is not going to receive a discipline

154consequence. Okay. Is that is that fairly clear in our code? Okay. because I know we made some changes I think when I first got on the board about kids being able to defend themselves not by hitting but by pushing back. So I knew we changed that and I didn't know if we went so far as to allow that same careful review of other students interjecting themselves. And I do believe last year there was something that came out in state statute that addressed kids going in to help break up a fight. and I have Miss Haynes researching that, but I believe that's in our code. I'm not exactly sure where it's in our code, but I do recall that being something that was discussed last year in state statute. And Mrs. Haynes, don't struggle to try

155to figure it out. Now, I just wanted to plant that seed and any whatever research, we'll be happy to hear it and an update when we come back. I appreciate. Thank you, Member Vanos. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just had a couple of questions. One is just following up with with what member Gallo and the chair brought up and just sort of the looking at the consequences from sort of like the victim's perspective. I'm just wondering is there for the investigation of some of these incidents? Is there a timeline for which investigation has to be completed? Yes. The Mickey, do you know what that is with the bullying harassment investigation? bullying harassment should be completed within 10 days of being notified of the bullying harassment. Okay. And then are the is the I'm just for

156lack of a better word say the victim or the victim's parents are they made aware of what the outcome of the investigation is? So if it's determined to be bullying or harassment, the victim parents can be notified of the consequence. But what if it so if it doesn't rise to the level of bullying or harassment then it's going to be conflict and so the answer would be no. There shouldn't be a consequence. They may do a no contact contract but there shouldn't be a more severe dis consequence if it's conflict. I think I'm Excuse me. Can I Okay. I think what I'm understanding you're asking is are the parents notified either way? And the answer is yes. Oh, they are. Yes. Okay. and then if a student is expelled or leaves the school but then

157is coming back into the school do the victim or victim's parents are they made aware of that? That I'm not sure but I will I'll find out or if we need to address that in the code we can. Dr. Vasquez you recognize I do. I want to clarify your previous comment and I'll defer because it's you know it's been a while since I've been CEO or deputy. when there is a bullying investig allegation both sets of parents are notified that there's been an accusation there's going to be an investigation. What I need clarified is my understanding is if it's not confirmed bullying, they are not made aware of the consequence. Is that correct? Okay. And I think that's what Yeah. They're not. And that's part of, you know, the privacy that we do with all

158discipline cases. The bullying is the one exception if it's confirmed. But if it's still some type of infraction, I mean, and I'm asking this because this is what I hear from parents is that there they feel that nothing has been done, you know, or there's like no resolution or there's no punishment and it sounds like that that there is a consequence, but they it can't be communicated. If it's conflict between the two students where bull harassment was not substantiated, then the students the only thing they will probably get will be a no contact contract. So parents may think of that as not being a consequence. But if the bullying or harassment is confirmed, the parent the parent of the victim, they have a right to know the consequence of the aggressor. Okay. Thank you. the

159other area that I had a question about is actually going back to the dress code policy. and it was it's actually not something that's in the dress code, which I was very very happy to see, but I can tell you from personal experience that it is still being enforced. which is the mid thigh I guess maybe it was previously in the dress code. I don't know. But I do know that in I am 100% positive that in some schools there are still that is still being enforced. So just letting you know. and then the last question I had was actually with respect to furpa on page 61 of the code. it says that if you believe that furpa has been violated that you should file a complaint with the department of education. Is that still

160what's the status? Does anyone know what the status of that is now? Madam Chair, I'm sorry, Mr. Pomearini. So, of course, there's a lot of changes going on in the federal department of education and things that are getting consolidated and there's still, you know, a family it's FPCO, family privacy compliance office, I think. Don't quote me on that acronym, but I think that's it. Where if there is a violation of FURPA, they can report it up through that FPCO. Now, what's been consolidated up there and what's not, we're still trying to get a handle on. but that's typically where those things would be reported to. There's also, you know, the state department of education if they see that we're violating FURPA on a consistent basis. And this understand with respect to furpa, it's not a

161one-off violation that gets us in in an issue under the statute. It's if we have a policy of routinely disclosing student information that's protected by student privacy regulations. The penalty that usually goes along with that could be a potential loss of federal funding. I don't know of any school district that's ever had their federal funding taken because of FURPA violations, but that's the penalty that's usually goes along with it. Also, with under state statute 1022, students and parents have a right to privacy in their education records. so that's also a state basis upon which it's enforced. But there there's various avenues where folks can go if they think that their privacy rights have been violated under FURPA. What the federal stuff what the federal involvement is going to be going forward is still an open

162question as to how they're going to reorganize the department. Thank you. All right. Thank you, member Vanos. member Ferrant, I just want to, excuse me, touch base on the dress code because I do get a lot of concerns from parents regarding especially the high school dress attire. And I do think I mean in our dress code it I mean I feel like it's pretty clear that you know, no undergarments, that things should be should be covering all your body parts. but even when I go in and visit schools or certain schools that seem to be more lenient on this than others. So how how is that you know being enforced on a school level to make sure that kids aren't walking to school with inappropriate clothing or I don't know. I mean, I walk in

163schools and there's like midriff and butt cheeks showing and I don't know like is that I mean personally I think the mid thigh is fine. I think or at least you know where you're covering body parts. I don't think that's we're asking too much. but do you know superintendent how that is working? like how you know just from my own experience I have some high schools that are a little more that comply completely with the code of conduct for the dress code and others that seem to just sort of put it on the back back burner that's accurate. I mean there's no other way to say it but we do remind schools about enforcing of the code. and I do believe that for most of our schools that they are adhering to the policy. yes,

164that's my response. We will remind them I and I know I've been to schools where you know they have a cover up but the cover up isn't on and then when they see somebody they cover themselves up. I can tell you that years ago, you know, what the part of the conversation is really the amount of time that the child is missing class because if they're going to, you know, the clinic, they have to contact their parent. Then there's a they sometimes they will miss an entire classroom. So, what they sometimes will do is just say, "Maria, you're out of dress code. I need for you not to come tomorrow dress that and then they send them on their way just to preserve classroom instruction. But we can we can remind them. But you're right,

165it is lax. Definitely something I'd love to see be a little more strict because I think helping students understand that there is like when you're in certain environments, especially now if we're looking at the portrait of a graduate as they graduate the their work environment may not be lax. And so I think for them to understand that there is a we do have a code of conduct and I think you know if they're missing class a lot I mean then that kind of sinks on them that they should remember not to dress like that. May I madam please? So and I understand I'm not saying that we're not but you know some of the parents don't agree with our dress code. when you, you know, go and see some of the parents, you know, they're

166they're dressed not in our dress code, which they don't need to be. And so sometimes there is that discussion that the parents are like, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with what my child is wearing. And so it's a delicate balance. We'll we'll we'll reinforce, but I just know that sometimes you pick and choose and rather than have a child miss class, you know, for 30 minutes, they have the conversation. And then if it's somebody that's a repeat offender, then they deal with that person more deliberately. But I I can't deny that you're right. It's it's lax. Yeah. I think just my last thought is I don't think we should allow a parent's thoughts dictate what we require at school. And if you want your child to receive a free education in person,

167these are our standards. this is the way that we need to dress when you're at our school. And if you don't like that and you want your child to wear something else, there's online options and there's plenty of other options. But I think for parents to understand that there is a that this is like the this is our code of conduct. This is the way we're going to behave and dress. I think that would be I think we just need to maybe reiterate that to parents and staff. Member Gallow, you want to close this out maybe? I would love to. I think some parents would disagree. Remember Front, they're going to tell you they don't co-parent with the government and they should be able to dress their children how they want. Just a thought. but

168I agree. I agree that it's lax. And I mean, I've been to so many high schools and I see the kids. Number one, it's 100 degrees in Florida. but but it and you do have to pick and choose your battles. But I think the biggest issue that when I'm in my schools and I see kids and I'm talking to admin, it's just they don't have the manpower. It's not that they don't want to enforce it or they don't want the kids to dress better. It's just they really they would spend their entire day trying especially at the high school level trying and dress coding kids. like their entire day dress coding kids according to our dress code policy. So I think it's I think it's a bigger issue than I mean the kids definitely could

169cover they don't need their midrift showing. we don't need to see we don't need short shorts short shorts and I see those on our on our campus. but I really think that it's it's it's just it's more complicated than what we perceive it to be and just trying to get parents to to to make their children dress better. Have sometimes parents aren't even there. Like they're not home when they leave. They're not paying attention. and then it's just the staff. There's just not enough people on campus to to follow through with everybody who's not dresscoded, unfortunately. So, I was just sharing that. Thank you. All right. All right. Thank you. Any further comments? Okay. then we are finished with this work session. We have another one coming up. Did we lose the superintendent? Just Oh,

170okay. I looked away for a minute. No, I'm I'm looking down thinking that maybe I just didn't see you leaning back. I know we didn't lose you. We have you on a tight leash. We're not letting you go. but I think we need to take a break between sessions. I'll look for some guidance. Superintendent, you want to offer I just checked with Mr. Dragon and Draon. How do you say your name? Dragoon. I'm sorry. To me, you're Maurice and I try to be more formal in this environment. Dragon. Okay. I've never asked before. I'm so sorry. I should have. but I'm really looking forward to his presentation. I asked for this presentation. I'm I'm not sure if I'm going to stay, but how long of a break cuz my foot's throbbing. How long of a

171break do you think we should take? So, I'm thinking at least 15 minutes for the board. I mean, we could come back at one if that works for everybody or is that too much? And u Mr. Dragon indicated his presentation clarify his presentation will last 20 minutes. he didn't say this but he has no idea how long it will actually these are my words not his how long this will actually take taken especially given this board's interest in the subject if I do go home and watch it remotely I know it will cut a lot of time off so I may do the board that favor okay and the superintendent is nodding vigorously I'm nodding to the break, not to anything. Okay. So, let's let's be back here at 1:00 and I'll most likely leave

172it to the vice chair. I will be tuned in, plugged in, and I'm really interested in this. I may not call in and ask questions again to make it run faster, but that will not ease the burden for Mr. Dre because I will ask him my questions later and he'll have to repeat all this. So anyway, God bless. Great job in this conversation today. thank you to the board and to the team. Mr. Pal Marina, you and your legal team and Dr. Vasquez, you and, Dr. Miki and help me out. I'm trying. I know you. What should That's right. Okay. Thank you. thank you all very much and we'll see everybody back in 20 minutes. No, it's okay. It's just start to see Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

173Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. N. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Hey, hey, hey. Heat. Hey, Heat. Heat. Heat. Oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh hey oh Yeah. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat up here. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Hey, down. Okay, we're going to get started in about 30 seconds. Okay, we are going to readjourn for the rest of our work session this

174afternoon talking about IT initiatives with Mr. Dragon, our chief information officer. I'm going to turn this over to the superintendent. thank you, Madam Vice Chair. I'm so excited to have the board listen in on the major initiatives that our incredible IT team is implementing. you know, with all of the new technology, there comes a lot of risk. And I do want to commend the team. they have been exceptional as it relates to data security. really grabbing on to those situations where there's been a breach or potential breach and shutting it down and then coming back and implementing practices that are going to continue to keep our data safe and secure. You're also going to hear about some wonderful ideas as it relates to AI. I know that you know that not everyone is a fan

175of AI. I personally believe that if used properly, it is a tool that can greatly enhance our efficiencies and our work habits. So I am just thrilled and I'll let u Mr. Dragon as part of your presentation do you mind at least highlighting the members of your team that are here so they I know that the board may get emails from them but they may not have a name with a face. Thank you. certainly thank you. thank you superintendent and vice chair and members of the board. So before I begin I definitely would like to give a brief overview of the departments within its and I will ask each department head or administrator to stand up as I provide that overview. First I want to take a do a special point out of Elizabeth Rossario.

176She is the IT data analyst. She works with all of the teams within its and she is although not a team leader overall she is definitely a special part of the team. The next person I'd like to highlight and the team is Alicia Swed Sweden who is head of business analysis. So the business anal analysis team develops, implements and maintains enterprise software applications to support district-wide data and system needs. After that, I'd like to I would like to highlight Chand Nadal who is our director of fiscal operations. So the fiscal operation team manages -ate compliance and purchasing for district technology including infrastructure and devices for digital curriculum overseas IT budget capital purchases and the district's software budget. Then representing the information security team we have our senior director Mr. Russell Holmes. The information security team

177ensures the confidentiality, integrity, and availability of district data and systems by implementing and managing comprehensive cyber security measures including vulnerability remediation, endpoint protection, access control, security audits, training, disaster recovery, collaboration with law enforcement, and administration of security infrastructure and applications. Representing the infrastructure team, we have the senior director, Aaron Ross. So, the infrastructure team strives to maintain a stable, reliable, and cost-effective technology infrastructure for the district, including network management, system upgrades, user account administration, one-to-one support, device planning and purchasing, and data center administration, encompassing servers, storage, backups, and disaster recovery. We have our project management office that is led by by Charmin Charmin Ashro. So the project management office standardizes project management processes and technologies technologies assists leadership in resource allocation and scheduling to achieve district goals. They also provide project guidance and governance to

178ensure alignment with district objectives. We have our SAP business systems team which is led by Miss Amy Abner. The SAP business analyst team provides system administration including database management, security and technical support for the district primary and secondary business systems including SAP. It also advises on software procurement and implementation of enhanced learning and district and implementation to enhance district learning and district efficiency. And last, but definitely not least, led by Miss Tina Williams, we have the student information systems team, which provides comprehensive support for the student information system Skyward and other related systems, including configuration, maintenance, development, data exports, portal administration for over 400,000 users, and critical state reporting for funding. So, those are some of the team members and what they do. On this slide, we are going to highlight the key areas of

179focus that are essential for our strategic initiatives. The four pillars, devices, AI, data, and systems represent the core components driving our innovation op and operational efficiency. Devices are the tangible tools that empower users while AI enhances our capabilities through intelligent automation and insights. Data serves as the foundation for informed decisionmaking, enabling us to leverage analytics for better outcomes. Lastly, systems encompasses the integrated frameworks that connect these elements, ensuring seamless collaboration and functionality. Together, these areas form a comprehensive approach for it to achieving our departmental goals and the district's vision, mission, and strategic plan. Orange County Public Schools has updated its device purchasing strategy for student laptops. Historically, devices were purchased outright under a contract from our vendor partner, which we renewed in 2020. The current contract allows for both purchasing and leasing options. We are

180transitioning to a lease model due to challenges identified in the current purchase model. The lease model will help us effectively address these challenges. Our one-to-one program began scaling to all schools in 2015 with a major refresh in 2020 through 2022 in part using SSRE funds. Many of those devices will soon be four years old. The device purchasing model requires replacing many devices at once, impacting the budget. Leasing spreads costs evenly, making budgeting more predictable. The OCPS device process also involves vendor collaboration, device imaging, etching, and delivery to schools. The lease model allows a continuation of these practices, including asset management, and repair coordination with our current repair vendor. Our current repair process faces challenges due to part availability, vendor priorities, and the need for constant forecasting. The lease aims the lease model with an extended

181warranty can ensure timely repairs and parts availability at no extra cost. Enhanced repair efficiency is achieved through an additional warranty and approved long-term planning is facilitated by the lease model. Switching to a lease model will offer the district predictable costs, operational consistency, enhance repair efficiency, and improve long-term planning. This transition will help OCPS manage technology resources more effectively, reducing repair timelines and providing a better experience for our students and schools. The transition to a lease model for student devices will also alter the associated repair process. In our current model that we use this year, when a device needs repair, we have potentially device fees to either replace a device and we may have disciplinary consequences for devices that are willfully and maliciously damaged. We have a repair out budget that was allocated to schools providing

182what we call credits which is equivalent to 5% of their student enrollment. These credits cover repairs for devices experiencing normal wear and tear or performance issues without incurring any fees for students or schools. Underneath our new model, the lease agreement will include an extended warranty for devices purchases purchased within the last two years and all newly acquired lease devices. This warranty expands the available repair credit pool for schools. The IT team is developing a tiered credit allocation system to replace the previous 5% flat rate. This tiered model will consider the varying repair needs of different grade levels. And the goal is to provide a more flexible repair process, ensuring that devices damaged through normal use can be repaired without incurring any fees. Next we will discuss steps the IT team and district are taking within

183the area of artificial intelligence. The information technology team in collaboration with key department stakeholders is actively pursuing the strategic deployment and integration of artificial intelligence or AI to enhance productivity throughout the school district. There is an AI working group, departmental early adopters of AI and training that has been offered for school staff interested in AI. An established AI working group initiated at the start of the academic year has provided crucial guidance on AI implementation considerations. Aligning with the district's newly adopted five-year strategic plan, which serves as a benchmark for measuring AI initiatives, the IT team is ensuring all AI related projects directly support and advance the district's overarching goals. The AI working group has organized its recommendations by areas of focus, advising that OCPS should concentrate on creating an in-house AI tailored AI tool tailored

184to organizational, administrative, and academic needs. Leveraging our own data guarantees that the solution and outcomes with will align with OCPS's goals. The IT team is also working with other departments and outside vendors to ensure that training addresses not only the use of AI tools but also the behavioral changes required for success. There is a focus on how the training can lead to meaningful improvements in student outcomes and administrative efficiency. Microsoft, Google, Conigo, and Adobe Firefly have each affirmed the implementation of appropriate data protection measures for Orange County Public Schools information. Specifically, Microsoft and Google through their AI tools guarantee secure handling of district data when access to an OCPS provided account. Conigo's AI which is from Khan Academy their tool incorporates data privacy safeguards for user inputs and Adobe Firefly offers protected textto image generation

185capabilities suitable for teacher student and staff use. Teacher overwork is an issue frequently discussed in board meetings. AI can play a role in helping with this issue. For instance, an AI tutoring tool can alleviate the burden on teachers and parents by providing students with ondemand expert assistance in various subjects. This approach can free up teacher time, reduce student stress, and ensure that learning support is always available. Identifying and automating specific administrative tasks that align with AI strengths, such as data analysis and report generation, can streamline operations and free up staff time for more critical activities. Prioritizing the automation of routine business processes, including document document processing and data entry, can further enhance efficiency. Implementing AI tools to provide student feedback while ensuring teachers remain actively involved in reviewing and interpreting this feedback can enhance the

186learning experience. Additionally, investing in research to bridge the gap in AI tutors emotional intelligence and understanding of students misconceptions will be crucial. We are also strengthening the foundation of OCPS through strategic data governance. This is essential in ensuring every decision we make is informed, effective, and ultimately benefits our students. We are moving towards a proactive, collaborative, and integrated approach to managing our data assets. Effective data governance is crucial for informed decision-making, operational efficiency, and most importantly, student success. This ensures data is not siloed, but accessible, reliable, and secure for all authorized users. The data governance committee has been established with representatives from each division to implement procedures, ensure regulatory compliance, define data ownership, and resolve data related issues. The committee is currently working on creating a business glossery and data catalog. A business glossery provides

187definitions of business terms, promoting clarity and consistency across the organization. It helps ensure that everyone uses the same terminology and understands the meaning of key terms in the same way. This is crucial for accurate communication and reporting. On the other hand, a data catalog is an organized inventory of data assets within the organization. It is used to help manage data, make it easier to discover, access, and understand. Both tools work together to enhance data governance and support data literacy initiatives. In addition to their work on the glossery and catalog, the committee is also updating data distribution processes to streamline efforts and reduce risks. while doing data delivery. Also supporting data availability, we have launched a data transformation project to create a centralized robust data center for OCPS. The o the ultimate goal is to create

188a one-stop shop for dashboards and reports providing actionable data insights to teachers, school leaders, and district administrators. This initiative will place relevant data at the fingertips of those who need it most by implementing a seamless and efficient system that meets both current and future needs. The OCPS data center will be the one-stop shop for OCPS dashboards and reports. Upon logging in, a quick fact dashboard will be displayed on the homepage providing an overview of high-level OCPS information. It will show up-to-date statistics on the district, including the number of students and the number of schools at each level. The analytics section of the OCPS data center will bring together dashboards and reports from various systems across OCPS, including the newly developed insights dashboards. These dashboards will provide a consistent view of data from the teacher level

189all the way up to the district level. This ensures we are comparing apples to apples when it comes to using data to improve student outcomes. I'll provide more information about this dashboard on the next slide. The dashboards and reports section allows us to bring together new and existing items from various platforms across OCPS to create a unified experience for staff. Dashboards and reports currently hosted on separate platforms will be consolidated into the centralized data warehouse. Functionality of the OCPS data center also includes the ability for users to favorite their frequently used reports. Once favored, these will display on the user's homepage for easy access. The teacher insight dashboard enhances the ability for teachers to monitor and support student progress effectively, making it a valuable tool for improving educational outcomes. The team has begun development of

190this dashboard with a focus on student demographics and test scores. Plans to add additional data are underway. Additional plan data elements include attendance, grades, discipline, and additional assessment data. Our focus group will a focus group will be established to obtain feedback and expand upon the dashboards. The ask a question about your data feature on the dashboard allows users to interact with the data in a more inu in intuitive and dynamic way. This feature enables users to ask natural language questions about the data displayed on the dashboard and receive answers or insights based on the data. So today's discussion centered on four key pillars, devices, AI, data, and systems, all of which directly support the district's strategic plan and overarching goals. We are streamlining device management and the fee structure through the implementation of a leasing

191model. Concurrently, we're developing AI and data systems coupled with a robust support mechanism to enhance school efficiency. These initiatives are underpinned by comprehensive system pro projects designed to in securely store, provide, display, and protect our data while also optimizing operational processes for staff and students. While time constraints precludes an indepth exploration of all our systems and security measures, please be assured they constitute a crit a critical component of our strategic focus. Thank you for your time and attention. And I'll turn things back over to the superintendent and the board for any comments or questions. Thanks, Maurice. this was very informative. members of the board, I just want to highlight the area around data governance and the systems. You know, we heard from our teachers the amount of time they were spending, you know, trying to

192gather data, data that, you know, the administrators were looking for in order to you monitor student progress and make sure the schools and classrooms had the supports that they need. So, some of the work that's been done around the data systems here is going to directly help our teachers on on top of what their administrators are getting to be able to really look at their own data and help take give them back some some time. Additionally, data governance has been lax in the and I'm going to say lax is a kind way of saying it for the last several years and I want to commend Maurice for you know taking that on. it is a massive project for a district our size and all the departments not always being on the same page as it

193relates to data and not understanding why we needed to have data governance. And so I'm very pleased u with the direction the department is going. The team is phenomenal. they have really been of great support to our district and I will now turn it over to the board for any questions or comments. Thank you, Superintendent. the first up is member Gallo. Thank you, Madam Chair. first off, I thank you for this presentation and I appreciate all the hard work that you and your staff do on a daily basis. I know it can't be easy with everything going on in the IT world now with you know cyber security and AI and keeping up with all the new nuances that are feels like changing every day. so a couple of things I want to talk about.

194know the AI. We were actually when we went to the day in the legislature up for with FSBA, they were simultaneously having an IT conference downstairs from where we were and I went to it for a little bit and Commissioner Diaz was speaking Dr. Burns was there and they were talking all about the AI and how it's going to be implemented with our teachers and all the good things it could do to not just for our teachers but for our students when used appropriately. and then when we were at Cosba there was tons of AI classes that we went to and I think I went to three of them. and it was just really interesting to hear as board members how we can use them to make our job easier easier. How administration can use

195them to make their job easier. For example, I sent John my model policy on AI in schools. And John's like, "Where'd you get it?" I'm like, "Well, I got it off AI. I put in some parameters. It spit out a policy and I sent it to him. At the same time, I generated a PowerPoint around that AI policy that I could present and it happened with two, three, four clicks. Like it was just amazing. I took our enrollment PDF that we got from the beginning of the school year which had the contrast of last year versus this year enrollment. I threw it in chat GPT and I said, "Show me the enrollment enrollment trends based on this document for the next five years." and it spit out all of those trends. Like it's I it

196was just I'm I'm in love with AI and just I think the uses that it will help for all of us to do our jobs more efficiently, more effectively. what the teachers could use it for to really reduce the amount of time on some of the stuff that they do in their classroom. So, I'm I'm one of those that is super excited about the future and what AI holds and how it could simplify education in a good way. we're just going to need to, I think, not work in silos and ensure that we have the mechanisms in place because there will be there will be some fraud. There will be some deep fakes. All of those things will happen. So, we've just got to have those parameters in place. so my question is really about

197the devices. So how much will going to a lease save us like in the repairs and the parts versus the model that we're using now? So right now on average the average ri the average damage that we see is to either the screen or to the keyboard casing of the device and on average right now that's coming in around $200 $250 for a device that gets damaged. So the incorporation of the warranty into the into the lease one that is not the cost of the warranty that we have overall. So we're seeing we're seeing savings there. The second piece is that when we are trying to repair older o older devices, we don't have any kind of control because we don't have any contracts that provides any kind of predictability to the provider to say

198that we're going to need these parts. What that ends up meaning is that we either have to try to forecast and buy parts ahead of time or we have a delay in parts because parts will be provided to other partners that have a warranty an extended warranty. So we end up seeing a delay sometimes in the repair of our of our devices. So one, there will be the cost will be driven down because overall the average cost of repair is less than the cost of adding the extended warranty. And two, we're going to see efficiencies in the improvement of the devices being returned back to us because now we have priority access to parts based on having inside of our contract an extended warranty to have those devices repaired returned to us. So what is

199the cost savings expected? The initial cost savings will be in the in the repair area. So while our repairs will not the lease is not impact the amount of repairs that we're that we're going to we're going to have done. But I will have to go back and get the exact if we're looking at let's say x number of devices being being damaged and then coming back and comparing that to the cost of that outside of in just a purchase model. I'll I'll get those numbers and come back to you. The initial spread that we get is that if you're looking at the pure cost of purchasing devices and then you compare that cost with the cost of the lease, we're coming out the numbers are matching up and the cost of purchasing devices does

200not include the cost of that we're expending right now for repair. So just in in that match, we are seeing some savings there. But I'll get some I'll get some numbers specific and share with you. Great. Thank you. And the reason that I'm asking is I've said it before and I've had conversations with the superintendent and I'm extremely concerned about the sustainability of continuing on with a 1:1 device for our students. I've been doing some research. I sent an article to Dr. Vazquez and the research is really showing us that having a onetoone device is not the secret sauce. It's not improving our student outcomes. If anything, there's there's research to really say the opposite. That some of the NAPE scores and maybe some of the gaps that we haven't been able to close is

201in large part due to the computer because not every child can learn on a computer. and with the amount of money that it's costing the district and with budgets going out this week that are that are tight, as a board, we're really going to have to start making some hard decisions, not just around devices, but in other areas so that we can ensure that we have the highest quality resources available to our students. and I'm after my trip to Atlanta and the couple of the conferences I've been to, I'm becoming increasingly supportive over of people over programs. I've just seen so many cases where the district that got rid of all the programs and used all that money to push in people are seeing a much higher results academically and in closing some of those

202important gaps. And so I would like us to have a conversation about what that would look like if we pulled 1:1 devices out of our elementary schools. If we pulled onetoone devices out of our middle schools, maybe it's something that we could pilot it and maybe we just keep the devices for our high school students and allow them to have onetoone because it seems more developmentally appropriate than it does for our elementary and middle. So I think we need to do a little bit more research and find out what what is the research telling us and is the model that we currently have sustainable in the environment that we're in with with the funding like we're just not in a good place funding wise federally or here in the state. it's going to be a

203rough year and so we've got to look at every avenue to make sure that we have the dollars that our teachers need for the classrooms that we can provide raises to our teachers and educational prayer professionals. So I would really like to have a more in-depth conversation about what it would look like, what it would save us if we really removed and went away from onetoone devices. And if we just started in elementary school, I would be happy. but really getting away from those devices in elementary school and getting back to to books and how we all learned when we were little. So, those are my thoughts for now. Thank you. Thank you, member Gallo. member Douglas. Yes. The questions that I have when I go to my school is the same question about the

204laptops and the sustainability of having laptops in the in the school or in the classroom. children, you know, break the laptop constantly. The cost is higher, right? they have constant problem with the laptop. So my teachers were telling me that they referred back to going into paper and pencils because of the number of breakage and with laptops and student not being able to use them constant consistently. So you bringing the leasing the leasing the the laptop I don't know is that just like member Gallo said is that cost effective is it going to mitigate the cost how helpful is it how you know how much money are we going to save as a schools you know in OCPS just doing this I would like to see the numbers as well just like she would like

205to see and see how effective actually it is for us and you know just going back to paper and pencil I don't think it's a bad thing you know as far as AI AI is concerned I just want to say that I'm very cautious I love AI really do I really do but sometime I'm wondering if those robots are not going to take over you know I mean they know so much about us. You know, when you put something in, they actually keep your information. They know you. They know your brain. They know where you're going. It it's almost scary to me. so I just say I just would like to be cautious about AI. I want to learn more about AI and just let's see where we going with AI that you know I

206just want to make sure that we the robots work for us you know not them working for you know the opposite. Thank you. Yeah I completely understand the slide that I showed that had Google, Microsoft Conigo and Adobe Firefly. One of the reasons why we've targeted those specific AI tools is that the version of those tools that we're using, they specifically have in their language that they do not use any data entered into those tools to train the AI tool overall. So that has been a specific focus of of mine and of the team to make sure that our data is not being used to just enhance their tool. So they're they're not going to know us. we're going to be able to take take and use the resources, but we're we're making sure that

207we're paying key attention to how our data is used in any tool that it's being placed into. and then specific to the question around sustainability and availability. So within the lease component itself, the warranty covers up to 15% of of our devices as far as being able to get those repair within the within the lease structure with no additional cost, no additional no additional resources required from the from the district. So there's going to be efficiency and it's going to with the cost of built into the model, it now is going to present a piece where there is going to be a number that we can look at and say is this a sustainable number that we can that we want to continue with. So I do think that it will make it more transparent

208in in terms of not having purchases in one bucket, repair in one bucket, other things in another bucket. You'll have the complete number there to look at. Thank you. Member Ferrant. Thank you. Okay. I would like to start by discussing the OCPS data center. And so, first off, I think this is incredible. I think just the way that we've been able I don't even know how you guys do all this. Okay? Like I'm still trying to figure out how fax machines work. And this is just to me it's incredible. I've heard from so many teachers, even administrators and principles who were trying to dig up data. You're trying to figure it all out. It's just kind of all jumbled in there. and the amount of work it would take. so for this tool to be

209rolled out I think is going to be very very helpful from the teacher all the way up. And I would love to know as a board member maybe that's just something where we would discuss with our the chief of high school or middle school and then if we had a question regarding a specific school, is that something we can go in and look at or is that something we should always go through like a chief? so our right now we're asking that you go through the chief or the and the chief has the data in a in a manner that's easy for you to understand. We do provide the data to you when we get the fast data and you get to see that by school. some of the data that we're talking about here

210really digs deep into the student level which is not something the board I mean I would find it hard to understand why the board would need that level of data. So but anything that you require obviously can go through either Dr. Border because his team also has been working on some reports or through the appropriate chief. Perfect. Okay, that sounds wonderful. but I do love that. I love just how it's bringing like how you worded it. It brings everyone together from the different areas and puts them all beautifully in one one simple sheet. Just to touch on AI, I also am a little cautious. I think it's awesome for using it in the terms of like data analysis and being able to gather things together. but I do think it will dumb us down if

211if we're not really digging into something and like looking at it ourselves. And I think making sure that our students understand that if you're, you know, trying to do research, really going through and you know, back in the day, we'd have to go to the library and pull the book and really dig through it and write down what our information was and then create all of that ourselves. I know it's time consuming but it does exercise our brain and so when we're using AI for start using it for everything I think it will hinder our minds a bit the device I had the same exact question as the last two board members which would be the how much I would be all in favor of pulling away from a 1:1 device in or if we

212do a 1:1 device maybe in elementary and middle they remain at the school and they don't go home. that would, you know, I think a lot of the damage is done when it's thrown in the backpack and then you get home and you throw it on the floor and you know, your backpack on the floor and it's damage. but when we're when we're looking at those devices, maybe that's something we could look into where those devices would stay at school. They can use them, you know, periodically or whenever the teacher deems they need to use that. but really getting back to the writing things down and p pencil and paper. what I'm seeing too is a lot of students, the younger grades, their handwriting is getting worse and worse. because they're not having to get

213that paper and pencil out. They're getting out their iPads or their laptops. and that's I mean I that to me worries me. And so I want to make sure that we're really kind of focusing on exercising that part of their brain as well. And you know, keeping that something that's at the forefront. So, I would definitely be in favor of, you know, moving to more of a if we want to keep it one to one, but they would stay at the school and not go home with them, I think would be great as well. just my thoughts. And so, whenever you have a chance, I think just the numbers on, you know, how much it costs us I'd like to see like the two different sides. How much does it cost to to purchase? How

214much did all of that cost? How much were our repairs maybe the last year or last few years? And then what would it cost us to lease? And are there additional fees? Is there anything hidden there that we would you know maybe see pop up in the future? I appreciate that. Thank you. You're welcome. And just a couple of points. one we did make a change this year in elementary to the default model. And by a change to default model, what I mean is that in previous years, our default model for elementary school is that the in second through fifth grade, the device went home. And this year, we made a change so that the default model is that the device stays inside of the classroom. Now we provided the flexibility for schools where if

215the administrator or the principal of the school saw wanted to have a model inside of their school that was mixed where they had some devices go home that flexibility was there to them. we are in the beginning stages of examining the expansion of of that model to to potentially middle school. there are additional logistical pieces we need to work out. for example, in elementary school, there were structural pieces that were already in place. Specifically, each each classroom already had a device card. So there there was storage already there that's worked out. and there there are other pieces that we are going to to look at, but overall the direction of looking towards the potential expansion of devices defaulting to being in classroom in additional grades beyond grade level. That is an area that we are

216we are actively exploring. Good. Thank you so much for that. member Vanos Thank you, Madam Chair. based on the comments that you made and based on member Gallow's questions, I am guessing, though I don't know that the cost of leasing is probably not substantially less than the cost of purchasing. and I know you're going to pull those numbers, so I appreciate that. and also I just want to say I really appreciate you pulling this together because I know that I had a lot of questions about AI and kind of where we were as a district. that piece in in particular. So, I just want to start by saying thank you. Thank you for putting this together and thank you for presenting. you know, going back to some of member Gallo's comments and member Ferrant as

217well. I because I'm I know that leasing is still going to be expensive. I also support, you know, not keeping the onetoone devices in elementary school for sure. in fact, I am remembering back to 2018 when I stood right there and asked the board not to have devices in elementary school. that we didn't need onetoone devices and to really focus on in-person learning in school. and one member in particular told me that he did not want to be swept into the dust bin of history. I will always remember that comment. but here we are. And yeah, I do not think that. So I from a cost savings perspective and also just a learning perspective support what everyone has said about pulling the 1:1 devices out of elementary and possibly middle school as well. I also

218think it's better learning for our students. I think they will have lighter backpacks. which I think is important and something we don't talk about, but the, you know, our little 40 lb kids carrying around these heavy laptops in their backpack is probably not the best for their their bodies and their posture. and also I want to also pick up on something member Fant said that I completely agree with which is you know I'm hearing a lot just about the stamina of our students ability just for handwriting and if they have to handw write a test if they have to handw write an essay it's not that maybe they don't have the information in their brain it's that they're they literally can't write for that long and I think part of that is just our over

219reliance on on computers they're not developing those fine motor skills that we developed in the past so I think that is something worth considering as well. So kind of jumping from the device portion to the AI portion. I did have some questions with respect to that as well. on page 15, first of all, I think AI does have a lot of promise. I think there are a lot of really great things we can be doing and I think at the high school level that is a place where it makes sense to determine whether you know there is a place for that you know in our students learning and maybe it's tutoring I would caution that AI should not I think ever be a replacement for teachers but maybe that's something that students can access after

220school and I've seen the power of it you know I've seen a I've seen just basic free AI, you know, taking a snapshot of a physics problem and asking, you know, AI to help you come to a solution. And it's not just about finding the answer, but it's about going through those steps. And AI does a really can do a really good job of showing how you arrived at that answer and sort of reteing something that happened in the classroom. So, again, something something that students can use outside of the classroom, I think is important, but I also think it's really important that we explain to our students what is cheating with AI and what is using it for an okay purpose. I don't think they have a I think many students right now would

221just say using AI is cheating and some other students just use it and don't care. But I think making that distinction of how we can use it for the right purpose is important for both our teachers and our students. and then the last piece that I wanted to comment on when you're talking about data availability in general, and ways that our teachers can pull data, I would also like to see this available to our community so that, you know, when they have questions about something in our district that, you know, I don't know if that they can that they can find that like if they have a question about our budget or they have a question about how our schools are funded that maybe we can use AI to provide information to them or they

222can be a part of our AI community. Obviously, I don't know a lot about AI, so I'm probably using the wrong terms, but but I think it can be a really powerful tool just for better communication and data availability for our students and our families and our community as well. Thank you. Thank you. I and I think going backwards looking from starting first from the community aspect. I know that there have been internal dis discussions overall around organizing the organization display of data that is associated I the initial discussions were around the data and goals and metrics associated with our strategic plan and I think that adding to those discussions some of the other key components such as our budget that's definitely a piece that I'll bring back and and speak to some some of

223the other teams other teams about the you mentioned slide 15 and I want to apologize I'm remiss because I don't believe I gave enough context on on slide 15. So when the AI working group met exactly what you're saying is exactly what they shared which is this very strong belief and a key direction to the to the district that none of the experts that came and we had representatives from different industries that came and they were already using AI and they were further along than us and they were incredibly clear to us that AI cannot replace a teacher. It just simply cannot. And even within the aspect where we see promise in with with AI, which is in helping with giving students some additional supports or tutoring. That's why I added the line there at

224the end where they said there is this gap right now where AI for example does not understand the emotional intelligence or it does not have the emotional intelligence to understand what may be causing a child to have issues if there's there's something outside of that. So that piece where even with tutoring, no matter how you're using it, the teacher needs to be there and be able to provide input, be able to review anything that the student is interacting with is a very key part of our use of AI. one of the tools that is available for teachers for example that we're looking at more kigo that I mentioned it has components in there that includes students interacting with the AI that we're looking at but one of the strong pieces that also has is the

225teacher gets to see that interaction you know so I think that piece is a key part the recommendations that were given here are areas that the committee said we could potentially look at but overall overall it is something to help enhance the staff member. It was very clear in all the discussions this is in no way something that will is seen or is being looked at as a replacement even in small parts of of any of the work and the talent and the resources that teachers provide and support they provide to our students. Thank you. I'm sorry. Can I just Yeah. And just one I have and kind of going to what and I think this is what you are saying, but I have seen AI a great use of it where the teacher can

226look in and see the students, you know, let's say they're doing their homework at night and all of the students are typing into the AI software, you know, whatever the community. they can see what questions they asked and so they could actually see oh six students in this class asked the exact same question or you know and then they can tailor their teaching the next day to address that. So I feel like that is an excellent use of AI something like that. There are tools that provide that functionality and tools that provide those kinds of support are the ones that we are examining and leaning towards over ones that are just standalone use it by myself and then I'm just producing something outside of it that was given to me by the AI but I'm

227the only person that's seeing seeing that interaction. Those are not I'll take a step back and just basically say say this and it's the same with the onetoone program and any of the other pieces that we that I discuss here today which is that all of these pieces at their core technology and technology use is not the goal. its we are a support organization and our our mission our goal and our driver is to support the district's initiatives the district's goals and all those things are wrapped around education and educating our students and supporting our staff and so we are going to make sure that any tool that we're implementing and any steps that we're taking are fine-tuned to to support that. So, if it's it may be a helpful tool, but if it's not

228supporting the district's goals, especially how we want teaching and learning to look, then we're going to re reexamine it and re-examine how we're using it. Thank you. Yes, thank you. I'm queued up next and I just want to say that all of your responses here have really solidified my faith and your team and the research that you're doing around all of this. I feel like you are doing the necessary work and your team is doing the necessary work to make sure that we if we do implement when we do implement that we're doing it correctly and in the best way for our students. So thank you for that assurance. going back to the lease versus purchasing, I'm assuming that since you found that the cost, the upfront cost is pretty much the same. You're what

229you're saying where the benefit for us will be is in the repairs. because I seem to recall that was the big concern was just the cost, the annual cost on all the repairs. So, with there being warranty involved in the leasing, that's where our savings are going to come from. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. We're not going to see a savings in the cost per device. So, that's that's not being driven down. What's being driven down in the implementation of the in the lease and the implementation of the warranty is now going to be that we're going to see additional savings because the extended warranty covers items that previously we would just have to pay. I mentioned for example a cracks a cracked screen or some of the other things that we saw some

230of our highest the some of the damages that have the highest recurrences they will now will be covered underneath the extended warranty that we've already paid for instead of us now having to individually pay for for each of those occurrences when they occur. So that is where we are going to see some savings in in that aspect. But I completely understand the board wanting to see the actual numbers associated with that. Okay. Thank you. And do we have any initial data? I realize we're not done with the school year, but do we have any initial impression as to savings we've seen at the elementary school this year with devices staying on campus as far as repairs? the initial data that we have which is I mentioned before that we allocated what we are calling credits

231which is basically equivalent to about 5% of the student population of the school. We allocated funds to cover 5% of the student population experiencing device damage at a cost of about $200 $200 per per per repair. based on that allocation, what we're seeing when we look at credit usage is that elementary there the damages have gone down. I think that's the most straightforward way of saying it. with the devices staying on site, we are seeing less damages at the elementary level. Okay, good. and just to be clear, I 100% agree with my fellow board members. I am all in favor of lessening our usage in general of devices. and I've shared that with the superintendent. I think I've also sent her an article or two on it. but as an educator, you know, especially an

232elementary educator, we're taught that, you know, that's part of the whole the whole process of learning is, you know, not only the input, but them having to handw write things out or like do the output of that knowledge. And I'm afraid that so many of our younger kids especially are just missing that second piece. And I think I think that's the research that they're showing is that's what the case is. It's it's too much coming in coming in coming in and they're not having enough time to actually process that knowledge in a way other than you know typing answers in a physical way because the physical act of it also imprints it in the brain and there's just so much research around it brain based research that I think that it would do us our

233children the overall outcomes for our district. I think it would greatly benefit us to re-examine this. And I am all for it. Definitely. Elementary I have high school I told I think Dr. Armbber about this. I have two of my high school principles I was talking to last year at a football game tell me that they tell teachers put the devices away and the teachers are like gladly and you know get the paper and pencil back out. And the kids are learning better. They're doing more of that. they're trying. They're many of them are doing it on their own. So, I think it's definitely with with all of the costs and the expenses and the research. I don't blame the previous boards and superintendent that felt like this was a good move because at the

234time, I think that was where everybody was headed. But I think now when we know better, we do better. And I think that research is showing that it's not necessarily the best way to move. and yes, these kids are going to be going out into the world working on these devices. Everything is digital. They may not have to be handwriting much of anything when they're adults. That's all true. But they still have to learn from with us from K through 12. and if we can make that learning more concrete and really implant it more through better learning practices then you know I think that's what we should be doing. So because the their knowledge on the devices is going to happen. It's not like we have to teach them how to use these devices you

235know so really the content is more important. So I think there's better ways to deliver it. So, I am all for that discussion and I would my question about that though is if the if we do decide to move away from a onetoone model are we and we do this lease contract or a contract for leases, are we going to be tied in for like a certain amount of years to lease so many devices where we're going to be kind of stuck in this? So the lease model that we have in place, we are tied in for the specific year we've leased the device. So for example, the this year that we've done the lease and for the length of the lease, that's the tie-in we have. to answer your question specifically, do we have

236to do a lease a new lease next year? No. it is a year-to-year consideration. The devices that we are leasing this year, our goal is to target our secondary schools and to replace devices in in in secondary with those devices. But it is not it is not a new track where we are now tied in and must lease moving forward. No. Madame vice chair, may I? Yes. Something for the board to keep in mind is that there is our assessments still at the state level still take place on devices. So there will always need to be a certain amount of devices that would be needed as well as opportunities for for practice so that the first time they're working on a device isn't when they're taking the assessment. Got it. Thank you. That's a good

237point too. that's all for me. Member Felder. Thank you. Chair, I too have share the same sentiments as some of my board members with regards to the AI. I early on I still have my suspicion because I tried it about a year ago and it said to me, "So Vicki, I understand you're suspicious about AI. let me help you change all of that. I'm like, oh my god, this thing talking to me. Oh. So, I was like, no. But, I one of my concerns and it's been expressed, but I just wanted to kind of share with the because of we're having so many budget cuts with our maybe our elementary school children and especially middle school. I believe that if we could just go back to the paper and pencil with our children because many

238of our students that graduate from high school, they can't sign their name. They don't know how to write in cursive and it's just I don't know, they just don't know how to do any of that. So maybe we need to go back to that. However, having been a teacher and reading on page 15 how we can be freed up with so much of the tedious work, I do appreciate that about AI and I appreciate all of the work. This is a wonderful presentation. Maurice, you and your team, we do appreciate the work. And for those of us who are not with all of that, you all make it look so good and so easy that we can kind of say, "Okay, maybe it's not that bad." But I do have some issues. And then two

239because we are dealing with budget again I we may have to just again I agree maybe if we have to have computers for our children. Yes. Maybe it should be computers that stay at school because the little babies, those computers are bigger than they are, you know, and so taking on the little bags and, you know, it's just more than a notion. It's probably going to end up in some health issues later in life for them. also I you mentioned about the students stress, the teacher stress because a lot of teachers may not be computer literate. they may some of them may be having some issues with even trying to deal with computers and AI. So I'm hoping that patience come from your department and principles also and administrators will be cognizant of that and

240patient with teachers who may not ex be excited about AI may not really know how to use it so they can be you know work with them so that it can they can make the best use of whatever AI is trying to give them in terms of tools and I'm glad to know that you agree AI should never ever replace teachers. You because you need the human touch. You need to have that. and again, I wonder and you said you're going to let us know. So many of our students were having problems with the maintenance of the computers which is costing us a lot of money. Superintendent said that we have schools in certain districts where we know parents cannot afford. they just can't. But we have to have the computer working. So that too

241may be something we can consider without people feeling like why my school can't have computers. But we're just trying to make it all work out for everybody because we don't have the money for students to keep you know when they don't I don't think they intentionally break them but as Vanos member of Vanos one of the members said that they may throw it on the floor and forget and it gets damaged. Okay. so I'm I'm happy with that part that we may need to not use that anymore just you know curtail some of that and I just want to also say that I do like the idea if the students can use a high school students then the teacher can see that more than two students or three or four students are having a problem

242with this and that can gauge the teacher's lesson plan. you know they or he will know exactly what to concentrate on that can lead can you know can a set of having some of the data talks they're having but looking at that could help curtail some of that extra time that they need to use to asking students what it is that they don't understand they can see it so I'm not totally against reminds me of the Jetsons people saw that we were c you know little kids that's all this is the jet And Rosie, I was in Atlanta at a national convention and I went to a restaurant and a robot bought me my food. I was I was messed up. I said, "What is that?" She's bringing your food. He's just coming. I said,

243but anyway, I mean, it was interesting, but I was I took pictures of it. It was coming to me with my food. But I'm I think that we all are on the same page in terms of how we need to work with our budget and at the same time keep our students and our schools actively participating in what technology has to offer us because it is a good thing. We just have to use it correctly. My last point, I hope we have something in place so that AI would not be used for children, you know, cheating. We still want we need they need to learn they need to know how to write an essay and not go to computer and say I need a paper written like this. No, I need you to know how

244to do this. So we got to work out something in that regard that they know how to actually write and that's so important to me and I think the board shares that same sentiment. But thank you for your work Maurice and your team. Thank you so much. It's so colorful presentation. Thank you. Thank you. Points for style. Member Vanos. Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to this first point is not really directly related to what you're doing, but I just wanted to make the point that testing hasn't always been on computers. And I think as other districts probably are reaching some of the same conclusions that we are, I mean, we can hopefully advocate as a state and in multiple districts that our elementary students should probably never be tested on computers if we actually

245want to know what the content they understand and what content they know. I even think when it comes down to testing, they should be tested on on paper. and I know students who have eye issues, vision issues, attention issues, they can't even take the test on computers and some of them are having to do paper and it's especially for at minimum our elementary kids were probably better off having testing on paper and that's maybe something that we can work with other districts on. and just my last issue I forgot to ask when I was up last time was when you talk about on this is going to AI, so we're moving to AI. when you talk about on page 12 the working group and OCPS concentrating on creating an in-house AI tools what what is

246the timeline on that so we're looking at we're looking at the in-house the in-house component in in different with different facets so within the within the tools being available to teachers and students and some of the tools that we talked about that give you those guard rails but they're more readily developed. Some of those tools are available today and where we're doing a training of the willing where if they are interested they can go and they can get training from our mainly from our curriculum and digital learning team. We are also looking at integrating and I'm I'm not going to look back at the team because they've told me I cannot call it AI. but I would I will just call it some OCPS intelligence into our dashboards where we will provide ability for folks

247to to similar to AI ask some natural language questions of the data that is available that is available available to them. I have begun discussions with some of our vendor partners and I have scheduled discussions with the chiefs, the other chiefs to start really focusing on where in line with the strategic plan and their department priorities they would like to implement implement AI in a meaningful way. And the plan is to use that discussion to then create the timeline for the specific tool that can point to the objectives and the data that they would like to point to and then to surface it to surface it back. So for example, if it's a piece where there is where folks want to look at let's say purchases that are taking place and they want to use

248AI with obvious safeguards and review to pull more data together and quickly understand trends with purchasing or or trends trends around where dollars are being spent. That could be one potential area that we look at it. But the goal would be and it's the approach that we're taking here is the same approach that I mentioned with devices and with everything else is that it is not going to be technology for technology's sake but is going to be the technology tool embedded within some district or departmental departmental goal. So the timeline for that piece is really going to depend upon when we have those discussions and their obviously schedule within the next two two weeks. When we have those discussions with the teams on what they would like to do then mapping from there and seeing

249based upon the amount they're looking at what can be the timeline. Okay. Thank you for the answer. So is it possible that we could see some of these implemented in our schools in kind of an organized way like next year or the year after or some of the teacher tools that we are looking at are teacher tools that we have made available that there's been some initial training but there is going to be greater work and greater scale to make them available starting next year for teachers to use. then this would be some of the more classroomfacing tools that teachers and students can use. but I know that there's a lot of discussions and there is a lot of planning that's going on right now to make sure that the roll out of those resources

250are appropriate and that the supports that I'm sure that teachers will need to make sure that they understand those tools are going to be in place. But there is a target for some of the tools to be in place as early as start of school next year for teachers to use. Yes. Okay. and just for maybe some of the student resources or just again for their understanding of how to use AI because I understand that we're trying to control the implementation of AI but not everything is in our control right so unfortunately so maybe there I'm just wondering if maybe there could be some education to our height and again I'm not looking in in elementary and middle I think we could focus on our high schools for for this, but you know, maybe there

251could be some education for our students next year in training again. And I know we've multiple board members have said this, but I just kind of want to put a time on it because AI isn't slowing down and maybe we don't feel ready to have all the answers. but I think we do need to provide our teachers and students some additional direction on how we can use it in some kind of policy. honestly by ne by by I don't know as as soon as possible. So within for example the code of conduct we have already worked with the team that was here to start adding language within the code of conduct that specifically addresses AI for on on the student side and to start putting some guidelines around the appropriate use of AI in line

252with whether it is the Florida standards or or in line with the district district curriculum. So we started adding those languages there. we are also heavily working on the pieces around what can some of the resources that we have and it's a discussion I've started with the team where we're looking at some of the resources we have around data management overall and then looking to see how we can add in language that's specific to AI around those resources and those those tools and make and then plan around how we can share those with teachers cuz I I'm on the same page and in complete agreement with you that we are at the point where we need to do more communication to schools to teachers and to students around around AI. I will just be very

253upfront about my and this is my personal is a personal viewpoint that I have that I've been very open with with the team about and I am definitely listening and and learning as we go go through it. I've done a lot of research at the policy level where other districts have gone through and they have at the policy level tried to address AI. And what I've seen at the policy level is there's a lot of don't, don't do this, don't do that. And there are a couple challenges that are run into. One of the challenges that's run into is that the policy process itself is around a sixmonth process if if things go well. to give you an example of that six-month process, how that translates in the world of AI. I believe I spoke

254to one district they said when they started the process chat GPT the initial version of it first came out that can only do text and so they wrote a policy around the AI around AI and they not using it in in terms of text by the time their policy process completed AI chat GPT could do voice and it could do images and they were working on video so suddenly they had a policy that was trying to address components with AI that didn't it didn't by the time the policy process was done there were things that AI could do that didn't even exist when they started that process. So I you know I think there are components there that we would have to just look at look at and in some of the other policies that

255I've I've I've read I think part of the challenge that I've had with some of the other policies is that when they point out the things not to do with AI, they're not things that were pre that were allowed using other tools. They're just specifically pointing out like for example, it was that there was nowhere in their policy that allowed students to cheat, but they added a language don't cheat with AI, you know, or there was nothing that allowed the students to do these other tools, but they just added with AI to to all of them. And I think if we're going to go through the process, we want to make sure they're substantive and the direction we're giving at a policy level is substantive rather than just adding with AI to existing resources or

256existing guidance that we've provided. That Thank you. That that was so well said and makes so much sense to me. I guess I'm gonna delete what I asked before and I'm just going to say maybe it's just more of education, education to teachers and students. And I think that's just the main piece. thank you for that answer. Thank you, member Vanish. Just good points and I think definitely for teachers because I think there's a lot of teachers that just, you know, a lot of adults, a lot of us that just don't understand how it all works. So, I think it would be valuable for sure. the superintendent queued in. Thank you. just a comment around the tools and so while some of them are in-house and our team has been working on integrating AI into

257some of the areas funding is going to have a huge impact on that as we are currently looking at cutting back on programs. we probably are not going to be able to accelerate in some of the areas that we wanted to. we've been piloting a program that we've used with transportation, I believe, and we're now getting ready to expand it to the superintendent's inbox that basically uses AI to help customer to help us answer questions for parents in a much faster accurate manner. the for transportation they love it. They're also able to get data from that has helped them improve their processes. The real test will be what happens over the summer and at the start of the school year when those qu when the angst is the greatest. And so that's a tool that

258we're looking at that could be laid over all of the divisions including the division of learning when parents are calling the different schools or the different cadres. and so those would probably take priority as we're trying to maximize any available dollars. But even with that, there's no guarantee that we're going to be able to purchase some of the tools that we originally thought we're going to be able to enhance the classroom experience and help our teachers. and I do think the education piece is huge because there are a and I love board member Gallo. She loves AI. Maurice does a phenomenal job for cabinet. when I push out information, he I call it his AI magic and then he sends us a link with presentations, audio, so that we just have to summarize. And one

259of the latest ones did not accurately depict what was portrayed. It made it sound like, oh, all this money is available when it really wasn't. And so that caveat that you always have to verify. and I think that's the piece that gives me the greatest angst because when we even have our teachers that are using tools, you have to trust but verify. And I think that we have to be cognizant that may not be something that everyone does. And we have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of not checking, not verifying. And glad I mean very happily we have not had that experience yet or at least not to my knowledge. but I do know in other districts there has been fallout because of the use of AI and not factchecking. so I'd

260love to be able to tell you they're going to be able to roll out all these great tools that is going to make life so much easier for both our students and our teachers. The reality is that every penny that we are looking at for next year is being highly scrutinized. On that bright note, if there if there is nothing else to the board, I am going to adjourn this meeting. Thank you again, Maurice, and your team. Thank you. Heat. Heat. Heat up here.