001It is six. Um, did anyone sign up for public comment? No. Okay, perfect. That Oh, someone did. >> Oh, okay. Oh, I see. Okay. No, that's the sign in. Oh, I see over here. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. That's fine. Um, so we'll go ahead and call to order. This is a work session. It's a little less formal than usual. Um, we will have uh time for comments to be read at the end. Um, and if you'd like to go ahead and join us, Sherry, I'll just turn it over to you and you can do your thing. >> Awesome. Okay. Right at the beginning. That's it. You just We're just going straight to you. >> Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you. First of all, I want to tell you I'm super thrilled that I'm here tonight and not
002Monday night. Uh I I told Dr. Grryer that driving through three counties that required emergency vehicles only. I thought they wouldn't call me an emergency vehicle. So, I'm super glad for that. Um also made it into town early enough to have dinner at Homestead and I love that place. I loaded up my back seat with dinner for the week and several trays of iced cookies. So, uh it's good. It's been a good night and a good day. So, thank you very much for having me tonight. This has been a wonderful two weeks, two and a half weeks of working uh here within the community in person and also working virtually. Uh and so tonight, just to give you a little bit of my background in case you don't know that, my name is Sheri Switzer.
003I am an educational consultant with a company called Administrator Assistance. I live in Fisers, Indiana. Um I have three grown children there and a wonderful husband. Uh and that has been our home for many, many years. So super thrilled to be here with you again. Some familiar faces that I got to see at Inerson meetings. Um so that's great. Uh I was hired as an external consultant to really gather staff and community input facilitated end up facilitating four meetings. Two of those were virtual and they were planned to be virtual and one was planned to be in person. And quite honestly when we saw the registration numbers for the virtual meetings I was a little concerned that maybe wouldn't be able to hear all voices. And so we talked administratively about could we run one
004more in-person meeting just so if folks felt like the virtual session wasn't enough or they just wanted to come and be in person that they could come and be in person. So it ended up being two virtual sessions and two inerson sessions. So two things I'd like to ask of you tonight. First of all, please know that this is just a summary of perspectives. In no way am I making any kind of recommendations. It is sometimes beautiful being the outsider. So I don't know. I know what I have heard and my job is to do my very best to share with you what I have heard and captured from the voices of folks that I have spoken with. The second thing I'd like to respectfully ask of you, I put a little yellow pad of
005paper there next to you. If you would allow me to go through each slide and get to the end of the presentation before we start fielding questions, that would be really helpful from two fronts. Number one, you're going to see I start at a higher level of comments, shared values, and then I narrow that down as I go. So, it's going to seem very general in the beginning, which you're right, it will be very general, but as I go, you'll see more perspectives based on some of the different folks and groups I talked to. So, let me get through the whole thing. But your notepad is there in case you see something and you're like, "Oh, I want to ask or gee, I want to make a comment. Jot that down right in the moment."
006And then we'll circle back to those at the very end of the slides. And they're not that long. There's not a whole lot of slides, so I promise they won't be up here for too long. Okay. Very good. All right. >> I just got a text from someone that says it's really hard to hear you. So, can you hold the mic so that you either that or or hold it, whatever you're comfortable here. >> Okay, that >> does it come off. >> I think so. Yeah, I think you pull it forward. >> Comes off. You guys are going to watch I walk and talk. So, >> that's fine. I do too. And I do this hands there. Perfect. >> That's fabulous. Okay, I got mic in one hand and clicker in the other. Here we
007go. Okay, so how input was gathered. I just want to reference this for you again. Uh first of all, there was an anonymous community survey per board request it to be anonymous and all those results have been shared with you because I was not a part of creating that. I was not a part of disseminating that and I did not collect that information and because you already have all of that. I am not going to reference that uh survey tonight. Is this still on? You're just okay. Very good. Thanks. Um so I did share some high-level data um that both Dr. Grryer and Miss Roth had shared uh when I was in the different groups but that is not feedback that I collected and so I want to be sure I'm clear about sharing what
008I collected with you tonight. So you will see um my information is going to come from those two in-person meetings. We had 27 attend in total on January 14th. That was the uh late afternoon evening really geared towards staff 4 to 5:00 p.m. we had 13 staff attend uh that meeting and then January 21st is the meeting I was referencing that we held uh to really further support those folks that had registered online. And so we had 14 attend that meeting as well. In the two virtual sessions there were 74 attendees total out of the 107 that had registered on January 13th. We actually had 65 register and that was the first number I saw and I said, "Oh my goodness, I don't know about hearing all voices, 65 people uh online." So uh 36
009ended up hopping online with us, which was wonderful and they did an excellent job. And then January 15th was the noon meeting online. Again, we had 42 registered for that one and 38 uh attended online. Of the 74 total then that were online, 49 of them shared their name and role. And I'm assuming, and maybe I shouldn't, you have been a part of Zoom meetings before, but I asked up front to please drop your name and role in the chat. And not everybody does that and you don't force people to do that. So that's why you see kind of some discrepancy there. 49 people did share their name and role and the others did not. But I can see that they're on the screen. So that's all that of the 49 that shared 20 of
010those folks identified themselves as in district parents and 10 identified themselves as out of district. So some highlevel findings right out the gates just to kind of give you that bigger picture. There is definitely alignment on values strong alignment on values. Even where people's opinions differ about the policies, values are still very common and I'll share some of those common values with you. There is very clear concern amongst all groups about the capacity, making sure we fully understand what is the capacity. They feel like they've heard some different numbers about capacity. So, be very clear about capacity. Uh there's concerns about fairness with the policy, transparency, that we're sharing out out in front of everyone what the policy actually is. And then there's clear concerns about making sure that we prioritize residents. There is a
011risk out there of eroding trust if this policy would lack clear caps, clear communication, if it would lack data transparency, and if for some reason it would lack prioritizing resident students. So why segmenting voices actually matters? I really wish we had more uh breakdown like this, but it is really important to hear the different perspectives and there are different perspectives between your in district residents, your out of district residents and your staff. So while I got the chance to hear some of that, I would also tell you again there is a common shared set of priorities amongst all of them even when the perspectives are just a little different. indistrict residents priorities. Uh certainly for you to make sure that we are thinking about fairness to resident taxpay taxpayers that were mindful of the impact
012on property values, assessed value, and referendum support. Uh there is some conversation around protecting access to parking, athletics, courses, ECAs, but there are some exceptions to that in the various groups that I listen to. There are concerns about discouraging families from moving into the district when we accept transfers. Um there's also um some concern uh that we we had they have a great desire for stabilizing your grade level sizes as well as staffing in general and program stability and then to be sure there's a clear distinction between access and entitlement. Staying with our indist folks for a minute, what indist residents supported clearly defined capacity by grade level. residents prioritized first. There was some conversation about having a lottery if the transfer demands exceeded remaining seats. The objective caps, I'm sorry, objective caps and annual
013review. I did have several folks talk about considering a review of the policy every year uh and maybe making changes if possible or if needed to that policy. Uh there is also a an u importance for transparent and fair policy. Again, that objective criteria versus subjective criteria. I did have several folks commenting on that. Good suggestion by many to have an FAQ doc that maybe you would post on a website that would help maintain the facts. uh so that if folks were in situations they weren't sure what the facts were or people were hearing things that may or may not be true, they could always reference an FAQ doc on a website that would contain the facts regarding the policy. Uh the annual data report is something that folks would like to see. Again, this
014is all transparency that they're speaking of. Uh enrollment numbers, transfer numbers, what the fiscal impact is around all of that. And then there is belief also in feeling that once enrolled in West Lafayette schools, no differentiation between students. Some exceptions were voiced to that, but overarching feeling is when they're here, they're here and they're part of the West Lafayette family. So out of district family perspectives, uh much of those conversations or comments were around the importance of sibling unity, keeping all kids in one family together, a need for predictability and stability. There's concern about abrupt displacement for currently enrolled students. There is a willingness to accept limits or caps if expectations are clear and communicated early. And then there was conversation also around the difficulty of purchasing or affording being able to afford to purchase
015a home within the district. They really want their children to go here and have that West Lafayette experience, but affording a home with prices uh and taxes and insurance is a difficulty, a hardship. At the staff meeting, staff talked about currently enrolled students coming first. Again, that's prioritizing those kiddos that are already here. um protecting class size and program qualities. They do talk a lot about that is what they feel one thing that West Lafayette schools is known for is its wonderful class sizes, their high achievement, their high quality instruction. And they want to make sure that that is protected. Thank you. And before we go any further, um I heard again that the sound had been lost. Brandon, do we have it back? >> Um if the person who's texting me could let me
016know if you can hear me, that would be helpful. >> Hello. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me? Did I I might have touched the power button. Can you >> Can you hear me now? >> Maybe also the kind of microphone you have to hold like this and you can't hold it like that. >> Hold it down here. >> Oh, >> I can repeat anything. Anything that you would like me to repeat, I'm happy to do it. >> Okay, she says we're back. Um, and thank you to my secret friend for monitoring that for us. Um the uh I think we lost you three pages back or so. That was when I got the text. Um >> you want me to do the shared values again? That's four slides back. >> I think that's worth repeating
017obviously. Yeah, let's let's do that. Thank you so much. >> There's one back from that. >> Okay. Yeah, that'll work. >> Staff concerns. >> Does that take us back far enough? secret friend. Technology is such a joy. >> I know, isn't it? >> It is. >> But everybody gets to stay home in front of their fireplace under a cozy blanket and have a cup of cocoa. She's typing. I can see the dots. >> Okay. >> She's writing Moby Dick or uh War in Peace. Oh gosh, you lost her when she was talking about staff. So yeah, that's the perfect place I think. Staff concerns. Okay, >> that's perfect. Thank you. >> Very good. Uh staff concerns. It actually started here. This is a staff priorities. I'll just do priorities and then go through the concerns
018again. So priorities for your staff, currently enrolled students come first. Uh protecting class size and program quality. Again, they spoke about the high quality programs that you have here, the breadth and depth of the courses uh that are offered. They want to be sure that we maintain uh that high quality instruction, high quality achievement, clear capacity definitions, and a healthy range or some folks referenced it as a happy range for enrollment. And that referenced what would the minimum number be to allow us to still maintain these programs we're speaking of versus what's the maximum? We would have to consider doing uh something different. Avoiding staffing instability and job insecurity rolls kind of into that concern about recruitment and retention. I spoke a little bit about the first grade example that was shared with me where
019if you lose a section of first grade, as long as we have a place to put that teacher in a different grade level, uh that's great. But if enrollment would continue to decline, uh if we would have to start to lose teachers, that does raise the concern then about recruiting teachers in the future and retaining teachers. Teachers can come and go nowadays more than we used to be able to do uh back in my day. So that was concerns from the staff. Again, staff mostly talking about the structure and the sustainability um of the policy itself. staff concerns and practice. The risk of overenrollment to some of the courses, electives, activities. Uh overenrollment can be great as long as you can staff overenrollment so those classes don't get too large. Uh but that's a risk.
020It's also a risk of programs being cut from unstable enrollments. In other words, you have enough to run the class this year and then the following year you may not have enough. So again, they're looking for that stability uh as most of us educators actually do. There was concern a little bit about graphic uh sorry geographic distance. So students that are transferring in that might live too far away may not get to be a part of some of the activities that we do here in West Lafayette uh as a part of the school culture. And then there is a strong desire from your staff for predictability, stability, and long-term planning. So this is a slide that talked about the shared values over all of those groups. Uh again, I think I've said this multiple times
021and you're hearing in district students being the priority. Uh certainly protecting the highquality education that you already offer here at West Lafayette uh and maintaining our small class sizes. Uh also wanting to protect the strong programs in musics, electives, ECAs, etc. uh making sure that we are fiscally responsible uh fiscal responsibility and taxpayer trust. Uh there is a need for community to understand the interaction between transfers, referendums, long-term funding. How does all of this work together? What does that look like? Uh stability for families that are already enrolled. Fairness, transparency, and objective criteria. again the number of times I heard objective criteria is essential over subjective and there is some perception that it was subjective before so that's what all that is about when they were when I was listening um definitely want to preserve
022our capacity to support every student looking really at the whole student academically socially and emotionally across a diverse school system and the desire to maintain a diverse school system and then long-term stability or excuse me, sustainability of enrollment, staffing, and funding. A unifying principle across all groups. While perspectives differed on the extent to which transfers would be accepted or should be accepted, there was a pretty broad agreement that transfers should not undermine resident students quality programs and the the district's long-term viability. And in general or overarching what stakeholders are asking of any policy to include that you include clear capacity definitions by grade level that you find a way to prioritize residents that you have objective caps that you're transparent about data reporting that the policy is published and clear. It's a clear process and
023some even asked about that being presented at a board meeting so that uh stakeholders could come and listen and really learn about the policy from you and then being willing to do an annual review to really see if in fact the policy that gets put in place is it working? Is it helping us achieve our goals or are there pieces of the policy that we might be willing to change and or able to change? And then my closing was this was my role was to really gather this information to be a listener uh and then to summarize and synthesize it for you so that you had this in a um highlevel view and also some very specific views from different groups that we spoke with and then you get to respectfully work together to determine
024whether how and under what conditions student transfers fit. Thank you so much. >> Perfect. Thank you so much for repeating it. I really appreciate you. Um here's how I think uh the structure of the next part of the meeting should go. Um if anyone has any specific clarifying questions for Sherry. Um I think we should go ahead and do those now and then we should hear the public comment that you said you had to read and then after that we can do our discussion. and that way you can get back on the road because I know you're traveling and um I think that would make the most sense. So clarifying questions. George, did anybody in any of the focus groups give you any indication why they thought transfer students would affect extracurricular activities or program
025quality or uh anything like that? Thank you. Uh no, mostly what I heard it wasn't necessarily about the transfer students. It was about the numbers uh the capacity to can we support it. It in my mind and in the notes that I have it goes all the way back to what is the capacity. So people want to understand if the capacity is and the numbers I heard was overarching capacity. So 2200, 2,300, 2500 are the three numbers that kept being thrown out in conversations with me. What is our capacity? So be very clear about that. Um the capacity also for class sizes, where do you want to set that class size limit? Do you have a range, that minimum, that maximum? Um that was more of what I heard, not necessarily specific to a transfer
026student. And following on that, did anybody give you any indication as to why they felt that in district residents were not being prioritized? >> No, I didn't hear anything about that. I heard that we need to make sure we prioritize them, but nobody commented on we are not prioritizing them right now. I I heard nothing like that. Rachel, >> going back to the staff questions, did you get a sense I think it's it's can be quite different between elementary versus high school students. Do you get a sense of particular grade levels that the staff were focused in or were they kind of the whole range or have any? >> So the first grade comment so that's that was a specific comment to an elementary maybe that's happening now. I felt I got the sense that
027that has already happened that we've had a first grade class that wasn't as big as other first grade classes. I can't verify that for you, but that was the sense that I got from the staff comment. Um the other end of that was really more about the electives, the AP courses, those higher level courses that were a able to offer up high school. We want to be able to continue to offer those courses without them getting too big, but also without them being so with staff. >> Thank you, >> David. >> Um, staying on the uh the teacher feedback, um, you you had mentioned that some concerns were about the risk of overenrollment in electives and activities, but then also there's the risk of program cuts from unstable enrollment. I'm assuming that the first one
028about overenrollment is related to allowing transfers whereas the second one would be related to if we didn't allow transfers. >> Okay. Were there others that you felt were specific to um one or the other because they they were a bit mixed in in there or did you get an overall sense that there are more concerns about um whether we have transfers or don't have transfers? in that conversation. They weren't all transferable community. district that was convert. >> Sherry, I just I'm sorry. I heard your mics out again. Why don't you come be Michelle and uh we'll give you your own seat with a mic that we can see the light on and that'll work. Okay, perfect. >> Sorry. >> Yes, of course. >> Okay. Okay. >> So to follow up on that then generally generally
029it seemed like across all of the groups that you met with the general emphasis was on stability and creating clear guidelines rather than we shouldn't do it or we absolutely have to do it and allow no limits. It's it's about a controlled process, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> 100%. Um, also that had to do a little bit with, you know, when people spoke to the fiscal responsibility of it, just really there is a strong desire to understand how transfers help from a financial standpoint. Um, where the referendum fits in, if in fact you're doing a referendum, how does all that go together for long-term stability financially for you? Uh, transparency on that is what I heard people saying or asking for. Thank you. >> You go ahead. >> And I went to one of
030the focus group meetings as a listener. And uh so so I I remember that at the beginning of the meeting you presented the survey result showing that the majority of the residents thinks of 60% of the residents um believe we should take a transfer students. So I felt that whether or not back to David's question whether or not we should take a transfer student was not a question at those focus group meetings. So it's kind of like assumption assume we will take a transfer then what will be the concerns what will be the priorities and I feel the conversation is around that rather than oh do you think we should take a transfer or not. So that's my impression. Nash maybe I wrong. Is there a question or >> just just to clarify because David
031asked whether people support transfer or not and I feel the question the focus group discussion was not around whether or not we should set it's more about okay if we asset accept transfer what will be the concerns and you know issues around around the assumption that we will accept a transfer. So because the beginning of the conversation is okay the majority of the people based on the survey we conducted think we should accept a transfer. So I I feel that's a starting point of the conversation. So that's why that's not in the conversation that the question you asked was not in the conversation. >> Okay. So that was a comment responding to David. I was just trying to find the question. Well, that's also a clarification question because that's my impression. I just double check
032whether that's a case. And >> is that what you noticed? >> You're right. The questions I was asking folks was really, you know, what do you want us to be considering if we're thinking about this? We're going to put together a policy. The four or five questions that I generated for each of those sessions was gathering more information from that group. What are things you want us to be thinking about, mindful of? What are your concerns? What are priorities? So, it was digging a little bit deeper. Again, I didn't I did not see the survey nor the survey questions. So, I really don't want to speak to that. Um, but yes, that data is data I put up there and then just went a little bit deeper into tell me more about what you're thinking,
033how you're feeling, what should we be considering and thinking about as a board. >> Okay. Any other questions for Sherry specifically? All right. Thank you so very much. I really appreciate all your work and your time on this. >> It's my pleasure. You're you're a great community, great folks. Appreciate it. >> There is one other thing. >> Are you going to leave a copy of these slides with us? >> Yes, Anna and Dr. Grryer have them. >> Great. >> Yep. >> I think they're also in box for you to have available. >> Okay. Um Robera will put those in those. Yeah. Should be in there. So, >> all right. Thank you again. >> Could they also be posted on the website so community members that want to see it? Yes, Mrs. Mford, we can do
034that. Thank you. >> Have a safe trip home. Appreciate it. >> Thank you everyone. You >> Thank you, Mrs. Switzer. >> My pleasure. >> Would who had the uh item to read? Was that you, Deja? >> I did. We had a community member that had emailed the board and um asked if someone a board member would read this because they could not attend the meeting. So, I said I was happy to. Um, so it's Wenbu and he asked that I read, "Thank you for your efforts to represent the residents of the West Lafayette School District and for conducting the recent survey to gather community input. I'm writing to request clarification regarding the survey results indicating that a majority of residents support opening the school district. This conclusion appears inconsistent with the views expressed by many
035residents with whom I have spoken. Accordingly, I respectfully request additional information concerning the methodology used to conduct the survey. In particular, I would appreciate clarification on the following points. One, whether survey respondents who self-identified as residents were verified as residing within the school district. Two, whether the survey instrument was designed to avoid leading biased or otherwise coercive language. and three, whether safeguards were implemented to ensure that each individual was able to submit only one response. The reliability and validity of survey findings depend on adherence to recognized standards of professional survey practice. Absent such safeguards, the reported results may not accurately reflect the views of district residents and may risk misinterpretation, potentially undermining the board's good faith efforts to represent its constituents. >> Thank you. Um, and just because we pulled it early, did anyone want
036to say anything from the audience before we go on? Okay, great. Um, in that case, we can go ahead and move into the discussion portion of the evening. So, who would like to kick it off? George, >> I'll be brave and start then. Uh, just want to put some information out there for anybody listening, anybody in the room. Uh hopefully the debate on transfers can be conducted respectfully as the consultant said, but I just would like to put some information out for people to get a handle on what we're dealing with. So we talk about prioritizing residents in the district, which is fair. We talk about fairness, which is literally also fair. But if we're going to talk raw numbers, I looked just a moment ago on both Red Fin and Zillow. Now, uh, the
037school the boundaries of our school district do not line up with the boundaries of the city. So, we also have to keep that in mind. Drawing a rough boundary of the school district, I see between 14 and 16 homes for sale right now within our district. If we were to ban transfers altogether, every single person or every single family that moved into those houses would each have to bring with them at least 11.7 kids, which I want everybody to keep that in mind during this discussion. Okay, thank you Rachel. Go ahead. >> So, obviously like everybody else, I've been looking at all the information and and listening and trying to understand different positions and I would just like to make a couple of points. One, with the we know that we have a very engaged
038population in our school. Um, and because of the disparity in opinions, there is no possibility that we will pass this vote and everyone will be happy. Um, and so I think that it it does come down to making what we believe to be the best decision. Um, I also want to a couple of things have continued to stick out to me and I think are not broadly understood in our community. Um, one of them is the price of those 14 to 16 homes. If we look at our enrollment numbers, they are substantially lower over the past two years. We know that kindergarten enrollment is dropping if there were to be a requirement that people live in this town and they not have the option. We don't have a lot of housing that a young family
039could afford to come in and purchase. Um, and it's not really a first mortgage kind of community in terms of property values. So, um I think we have to keep in mind in addition to those numbers, what our pattern looks like in terms of enrollment and and access to affordable housing. Um the other piece that um I want to to make sure that everyone knows, if we were to drop our um transfers, we'd be sitting at 2,144 students. Um the state has been extremely clear over the past two years and particularly that that volume has ramped up in the past 12 months. It's something the ISBA we've had a lot of conversation about and the board of directors but the the state has made it very clear that school corporations under the number 2000 um
040will be strongly encouraged if not forced to consolidation. And so I I do see that coming down the road. Um I think there's a lot of things trending. Sat in a meeting with um the state superintendent of schools and that was a very clear message. So I do think that we have to consider the most likely um position for us would be to consolidate with TSC and I think we all have to consider is if that is in the best interest of our community if we were to become a part of Tipu School Corporation. That is not a knock on TSC. are wonderful and I have no doubt they would make the best of that situation. But it will change how we function, how this function as schoolboard and it would eliminate, for example, the
041role of schoolboard members. Uh it would um it would reduce our administrators who know our schools well. Um and so I think that we just have to be willing to have that that be part of our conversation. Um, and then finally, I do have one question um that I don't I don't really have a good answer to and I'd like an answer at some point about it is what uh kind of reductions in course offerings are we talking about? Um, I guess I don't have a strong understanding. I understand we're going to offer every student language arts, English education, math education, science education. Those things are going to be offered. We're required by law to offer those things. We talk about what the capacity is in those in those extras um in the arts, in
042music, um in facts, in um kind of other enrichments. I will say that um and some of those soft skills that we need to make sure that our students have to be successful, foreign languages, those those things. Um what is capacity in those classes? Um, what is that? What does that look like in the ex quote unquote extras? I'm I'm I don't consider them to be extras. Objectively, I don't think they're extras, but I understand according to the state value, they are considered to be extras. So, that's one thing I would I would like a little more information. >> Thank you. And um while I'm thinking of it, thank you for your representing um all of us on that uh state level. I that's a huge value to our community and I appreciate your work
043there. I I also will tell you I know this is not the place in the meeting for it, but I do have a couple of concerns about the policy language that I haven't tacked on to here, but there are some there's a few issues in there that when we get to policy, I I want to make sure that we address those. >> Okay, sounds good. Um I'm not seeing either of them jumping to push their buttons. So, we'll let that question about what specific course offerings linger for now until that has >> I didn't push the button because I didn't think that it was time to talk about that, but I've written it down and we can certainly have dialogue with administration on that. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, and then is there anyone else who
044Yeah, you go ahead. >> And follow up uh follow up on Rachel's uh comments on the school district sites. Actually, I checked Indiana's uh enrollment data uh schools enrollment data for this year and uh I found that 82 out of 290 districts in Indiana have enrollment below 20 2300 and the optimum number we have been talking about and 165 out of 291 district in Indiana have enrollment below 2000. So, I'm not saying this is good, but just as a fact, that's a that's a data. I have another comments to follow up uh George's comments regarding the number of houses on the market. And actually, I heard that many people in the districts had to remove their listing because they couldn't sell it at a a price that they wished for. And um several families at
045EURM did that. They had to rent their houses out in order to wait for a better time. And uh now they are very nervous about it because and before they thought oh when SK comes maybe it will be a better market for SK uh families and so they are waiting for that time. But uh as some of you probably heard at one of the focus group meetings and the SP family actually expressed two wishes. One is they want to send their kids to our school district. Second is they want to live in newer houses. So at at this time many of those families are waiting for our policy. So if we open they will live elsewhere. If we close they will live in the district. So there's a dynamic there. >> Let's see Rachel to
046respond and then George. I'm reading that right. >> Yeah. I just I want to I want to validate. Yes. Um U.A.'s numbers are correct and that's kind of been the point of the state of Indiana. There are a lot of school corporations out there that are small and and what we're hearing is that that is not effective and they want to consolidate them. And so it's not it's not wouldn't be targeted at us specifically, but we would would put us in a vulnerable situation would be my point. >> And they can arbitrarily change that number at any time. they could decide next week. Okay, now it's 2500 or 3,000 and uh that would also throw a wrench in the works. >> I'm I'm trying to believe the best. Going to believe the best. >> I
047hear you, George. What you have to say? >> Um you talked about people taking their houses off the market. How many people are we talking? We're talking 3,5. >> I certainly don't have the the number. I'm not realtor and I but probably if we talk to the realtor they may have that more information about this but I I heard a lot and also I heard from the empty nesters who are really worried and they some of them are thinking there are two concern one some people are worried about SK they feel they will move out and uh when the the market is better or some people may move to where their kids are and all move to senior home and they wish to have a better price or good decent price at least you know
048what they used to and but with the the policy they have a lot of uncertainties right now they are really worried about the house market and also and people told me that they haven't heard about the the survey and this discussion and because I probably you know we don't have a way to reach out to those families when we do our survey but probably I think based on the number I got more than 70% of the voters or taxpayers in our district actually don't currently have kids in our schools. So their voice are not heard in our survey. That's another issue because we didn't have a way to reach out to them and they they felt oh we are taxpayers for so many years but we are not heard for this important policy which immediately
049impact their property value impact their opportunity to sell their house in the coming several years and they people have been wishing for waiting for SK to come but and SK's arrival kind of give people hope to sell their house at a good price, but now they kind of are losing their hope for it. >> Okay. Uh so are we a school board or are we a real estate development agency? >> I so I we discussed this question before. I think it matters to us because if you look at the survey and uh people also we also ask them about the referendum issue. So that matters us a lot because as many of you know and referendum is super important for us and last time when we promoted we said uh if we lose it we
050will lose 70 teaching positions and so but if you look at a survey people answer the question okay if we open the majority of people said they will not support a referendum next time if we close the Majority of them said they will support referendum. I think that matters a lot and we we don't want people to be frustrated and enough to say no to the referendum. I feel that's a big big loss for us. >> Okay. So, I don't want this to become a back and forth, but I will say one thing because if we're going to share personal stories, then I'll also share one of mine. So, I first moved into the school district and I didn't have a kid that was school age. I'm gladly pay property taxes, gladly voted for the
051referendum, and if we have another one, I'll gladly do it again because uh one of the better phrases I've ever heard as a guiding principle for life is one of the greatest things you can do is plant trees under which you will never sit. So, it's our responsibility to build the community. It's our responsibility to keep the school district open and running for the kids. And I am not too particularly worried about home prices. And I'll tell you why. Because if we keep this place running the way it has been, if we keep it moving forward, then the home prices will take care of themselves. And it's also not uncommon for the majority of taxpayers in any district to not have kids in school. That's just the nature of society. I used to live in
052a place called McGomery County in Maryland and fully 54% of the county budget went to the schools and it showed. But I can guarantee you it wasn't 54% of the people that had kids in those schools because you're always going to have a mix of people that are single retirees, people that chose not to have kids who live in any place. So we're always going to have a majority of people paying for something that only a minority of the people use. But again, it goes back to that old saying, you plant trees to give everyone shape. >> Let's give David a chance to uh respond. >> I think some of the concerns that have been raised regarding um transfer students taking resources that in district residents are paying um has been something that several people
053have raised. Um but when I look at these numbers um that Dr. Grer shared earlier today about the number of students per grade generally looking at it um there are about seven transfer students in kindergarten up through 25 and 10th grade. Um I'm going to focus primarily first at the elementary and intermediate school grade. Um we we have target average class sizes of 22 um in kindergarten first grade 23. The next three grades 24 then 25. Currently we're at 19 20 19 20.5 21.75 20 and 22 and a half. Um we are pretty we are below the target size. Now I know that um small smaller class sizes are great. Um I would if we could afford 15 per kid uh or 15 kids per teacher that would be a wonderful space but we also
054can't necessarily do that. adding adding in two children to one specific grade. Um or actually let's say kindergarten, adding in seven kids that that add that's caused the um the um average to go from 18 kids per class to 19, right? Um, we don't pay any additional teacher salary for that because they're all in existing classrooms, but we get the several thousand dollars um from uh from the state per per student. Um, I assume that there are some um co behind the scenes costs per student that u can't necessarily be captured. um just the administrative costs of having a student. there's there's some amount there, but um I think one of the important things is that allowing a controlled level of um of transfers allows for more balance, more stability, but also provide substantially more
055budget for the schools without adding additional cost, which I think is something that's really critical, especially given our discussion over the last couple months um of uh of property tax changes. Um so I think that that's something important that they're not just taking resources. They're actually providing additional resources even without without the added money that we previously charged for transfers. Um so it it to me there's a lot of net positive that allows us to u provide those extracurriculars with seven kids in um in in additional kids in kindergarten isn't costing us more in terms of hiring a teacher. That 30 to 40,000 or whatever it comes out to allows the school district to afford other teachers, special afford specialist teachers, maybe afford some time for for additional buses that can take kids on field
056trips. All these types of things, it it helps bolster the budget so that we can offer I think a lot of the important things that we do offer. >> Thank you. You go ahead. Yeah, I have a followup comments regarding this prioritize indistrict students. I I don't know whether that's a common agree is agreement or already or not but I heard a questions about how to operationalize this concept also earlier the in the presentation given by the consultant we also talk about once kids are in everybody should be treated equally right. So one one saying is the we industry kids should be have priority the other side they should be treated equally and so I'm not standing one uh uh take a stand on this issue but I I just share some questions I heard
057from the community regarding this this issue and for the common classrooms I I think that should let it's not a bigger problem but people are asking questions about the limited resources especially the resources and we said we use referendum to support for example the ECAS and people ask about also talking about the limited resources including parking permits there are not enough parking who should get the parking permits and athletic teams who should get in the um city team and uh academic team competition team activities and their competition ation teams and it's very selective. Not everybody who wants to do it can do it. Then who should get on and special education uh compensations like 504 plan IEP and the limit the resources limited and school district subsidize those services and we had limited supplies also
058enrollment for some over subscribed courses. For example, 38 students want to take a certain class. Who can take it? Who shouldn't take it? So sometimes we have to make those decisions at that time. Do students have equal right to getting those limited get those limited resources? That's a question people ask. That's also explanation for the prioritize industry students. And so I think earlier we discussed that what that mean. So here something more concrete. >> Well, special ed services are covered by federal law. So I don't think those would be up for any debate at this stage. >> But sometimes people complain that oh my kids should be eligible for it but they don't get it and because we don't have enough funding for it. That's what I heard. I don't know what the practice >>
059is federal law that that would >> but but I remember earlier we said the the state funding is not enough for us to support those services. We have to subsidize it ourselves. So >> right but but we're not going to deny a child uh fair and appropriate public education because we have them from a >> different I'm just give that as an example for limited resources. >> Right. I just want to be very clear as the school board that we are going to provide the required by federal law education that every student is entitled to. George, >> so for anybody listening out there, our email inboxes are open emails um at the schoolboard address or our addresses individually. I would love to hear from folks who think that there are things that transfer students shouldn't
060be allowed to do or have. I'm serious. If anybody truly has some ideas about what they want to limit to people who happen to be here from outside the district, please tell us. >> Okay, Rachel, >> I've I have said these words before, but I think it's a good time to raise them again. And I'm not saying this is pro transfer, pro- open, whatever. It's I just want to also say that one of our jobs as a school board is to consider what is a good culture for us to have. We talk about the great culture of high academic performance. We talk about the great culture of high expectations and community and parent involvement and all of those things. I think we have to continue to consider if living in a community with a very
061homogeneous socioeconomic position is advantageous to our students and their good development. And the mission of this school corporation is to prepare children to be successful in the world. And if we do not have the ability for affordable housing that young families can purchase, that that single parents can purchase that parents that earn anywhere in proximity to uh the poverty line could possibly afford to purchase. we we may be I believe we are but I will say definitively we may be um reducing our children's exposure to a a normal society and a and an education that will truly prepare them. So um I I have a little bit I I have a little bit of concern continued concern about that as well. Um what type of culture do we want to have in our community? you
062>> I I feel that kind of it's based on the some assumption that people who live in the district are richer than those who transfer and that's also some frustration I heard from the residents and because not everybody who live in the district are richer families and um as you know more than 10% of our kids are on the reduced price of free lunch and many people actually save money to either buy a house or rent a house in the in our district. On the other hand, not everybody, but some transfer families actually live in a much bigger house, better one outside of the district. And so I don't think uh people feel hurt when we say that if you don't agree with the transfer policy you are selfish or you you are richer people
063you don't have sympathy. That's not the case. People have been supporting our districts so generously for so many years now we label them as that. I don't think it's fair for them. And so George, you ask people to email the school board. Oh, you I don't want transfer student to do this or that. That's not what their intention. They only want fairness. That's all. And so I don't think it's fair to say that. Also, actually many transfer families are willing to pay for the fee and they have been paying for that for so long. It's not right now the the the state policy doesn't allow them. not allow actually if people want to donate they're still welcome to but they not required to pay the fee I think we we have to make it clear
064don't hurt the residents anymore I I don't think it's fair for them they have been supporting us >> okay let's go Rachel and then George >> it's important for me to say that I am not saying that um people in our community who are able to afford to purchase home in our community are um selfish and do not support our students that is a bit of an exaggeration of what my comments were misunderstanding. Um the difference is if you close if you close transfers entirely, there is no option for a lower income family to bring their child in. They either need to live in one of the subsidized housing options which are very limited in numbers in our community or um they don't come in. So I think it is a position and and UA
065is correct. There are some families who um have lovely homes and no judgment on them. They've worked hard for that. Uh and they and they have every right to live in the home that they can afford. My question is, do we want to close the door on people who might really benefit from being here because it just wouldn't be an option? And does that truly benefit our students? I don't think that it does. >> Okay, George. >> And I don't like it when people interpret what I say in ways that in words that never escape my lips. I fully understand that we have quite a few people living below the poverty line in this town in this district. Uh I fully understand that there are plenty of underpaid and overworked graduate students at Purdue and
066potentially remote from other places who live here and avail themselves of our school district. I want those people here. I know some of those people personally. I tell them this is a great place to live. I told the president of Purdue that this is one of his greatest recruiting tools to bring people here. So, if we're going to discuss things, if we're going to talk about numbers and accuracy, please be accurate and only refer to what I actually say and not what you think I said. >> David, >> the four of us have been bouncing back and forth. I wanted to make sure that Lawrence and Dea had opportunities if they wanted to jump into the conversation. >> Dea, >> um just to share a few points that I think um questions or comments have
067been shared in the survey. It was shared that we spend $18,000 per um student to educate them. So when we bring in $7,000 for transfers, there is a difference that our in district residents are having to pay for. Um, a second point is that as our as we take students, does it affect um the students that we currently have? And I have a hard time seeing the numbers that we're seeing to say that that's not true. So, for example, in seventh grade last year, we hadund 191 students in seventh grade when we had class sizes. So, this 25 number is the average class size. And I've actually asked do Dr. Grryer if you know he can get updated numbers to share what are the max class sizes that we're seeing at the junior senior high
068school. We have classes for example last year we had language classes health classes that had kids 35 to 39 kids in a classroom. So to me, when if I had a seventh grader and a bunch of transfer students had been accepted as seventh graders, I do feel like that I don't find it acceptable that my kids sitting in a class of 35. So, and this year we even have higher in seventh grade. We have 209 um sitting in seventh grade right now. And so that is one point. Um another point was even in the best of circumstances in the elementary school if um we're below capacity so whatever that number is if the ideal number is 22 or 20 if we have less than that bringing one in is not going to cost us an
069additional teacher but there are additional costs one more student is additional work on a teacher there is a cost to that teacher there's additional resources often pair of professionals um a bunch of things. So, um I just think all of these as we make the decision that we want to make that's best for our school district that we need to be looking at all the facts of it and not trying to adjust them. Um and then one more point that I wanted to make is I think that there has been some comments shared about if we accept transfers or not and what's the differences once those students are in here of privileges and I don't agree with that viewpoint. I don't want to hear division of our students. When we have students arrive, every single
070one should be treated equally. And so I would prefer to have our community members be reaching out and sharing what's their priorities for us as we're considering transfers and not transfers. And most importantly, because I think we all agree there's out of district residents that want the ability to attend our schools. I don't think anyone disagree with that. and they've given a lot of great perspectives, but our accountability and responsibility is to the indistrict residents. And so what is it that they feel like if we were to bring in transfer students, how does that benefit the indistance and of course our students? And then my last point that I would love to do is actually shift the conversation to a conversation about the referendum because what our decision about this may have a huge impact
071on if the referendum passes or doesn't pass and that will bring in a lot more money than any amount of transfer students can bring in. So when you look at the data um from the survey and like I said is I agree the survey is not a perfect survey and it should not be what we're saying is driving our decisions. The survey like the focus group should just be giving us information. But one point that the survey does share um from those that filled it out is there's a 14% point increase in support for the referendum if the dur district is closed. And so I think that's where a lot of our discussion needs to be right now is how do we pass the referendum? That's the funding we need. And if that's our goal,
072how do we meet the needs of our in district residents there who have to vote for it? And what's going to meet those needs? Um is I would like that to be more of the discussion that we're having right now if possible. >> Okay, George. You know what, that is an interesting point and it also goes to something else that you said um that we were referencing a minute ago with people who are scrimping and saving to afford homes here. It really does put us between a rock and a hard place because we need the funding to come from somewhere. And the funding from transfers, there's issues of fairness, but funding from increasing the referendum to make up for not only what the state has taken away from us, but what disallowing transfers would also
073take from us. I wonder if that would push the property taxes so high that some of those families that are already at the edge might consider leaving. >> David, >> I grew up in a place where property taxes and homes are more expensive than my mortgage right now. Um I a lot um I I want I want to tie these things together because I think this is getting right to the point of what we need. Um, first I want to say Dea, I absolutely 100% agree with you about when a student is here, they are our students. And I I I fundamentally disagree with the idea of unequal education for our students. Um, and so I I don't think that we should be thinking about prioritizing one way or the other for students. There are
074students. Um, but I do want to pull back a little bit to we spend 18,000 per student, which is which is the number that we spend. Um, but it's that's it it's kind of misinformation of a number or not misinformation. It's it's not it's not it doesn't actually capture the what it costs to educate one more student because most of those costs are already sunk costs. There are costs that we spend on building operations. There are costs that we spend on vitally important things like principles and administrators. Um the cost to add one student um to a classroom. Um when we already have the teacher, when we already have everything else, one student in isolation, the added cost is is not zero, but it's pretty close. Um there their there are time costs. It's more
075work for a teacher. So these are things that we absolutely need to pay attention to to make sure that class sizes stay manageable and have restrictions on there. But um now adding 10 10 students or adding 10 students that might stretch some other things, add some more costs in terms of the number of sections for specials or at the high school might um put some strain on certain topical areas. So, those are going to be important things to to keep in mind as as we think through what the right transfer pro uh policy is. But right now withundred is it 58 transfer students, that's about $1.1 million in um in in funding that we get from the state for those students, assuming the 7,000. It's not exactly 7,000. It's 7,000 and change, right? >> Yeah.
076So, that's $1.1 million that if we say no to transfers. Um, and we've already said yes that we're maintaining all of our current transfers, but as transfers graduate and leave, that's a a deficit of $1.1 million that we would need to make up and then need to ask our um indistum. And so, um, there's this balance here of, um, we we are going to need to rerun the referendum because of the of the changes that the state has made to tax law. Actually, everybody are what we pay is going to be going down because of maybe potentially what certain groups like apartments and businesses are going to pay is going to go down a lot. Um so we we have to figure out what makes sense financially aid for the district as part of this
077and we can't just look at it as um we are subsidizing transfer students because in fact that $1.1 million um not all of it but a lot of it is actually subsidizing in district residences residents to reduce what we are going to have to pay in the re referendum to operate what we're what we're trying to do. Defining about the elementary and intermediate schools with our um I'm using that because that's just easier math at those ages. Um it we're we're adding maybe one child per classroom and bringing in substantially more. That doesn't add the number of classrooms that we have to have, the number of teachers that we have to have. It doesn't add the numbers that we're at. it doesn't add necessarily more special sections. Um, and so it's it's something that I
078think that we need to keep in mind that we're not adding costs when we're adding um uh when we're adding uh transfer students right now and where where's the limit of how many um students do we then start acrewing costs like at what point do we then need to open another classroom which adds more cost and so I think that um it it's really important for us to make sure that we're not viewing or that we're viewing this in in in the whole as how this actually benefits our district. Sorry, that was a little bit rambly. >> That's okay, Rachel. Let's say it with your microphone. >> I would say that considering cost of what students do at the high school level. So sending a student to the GLCA will come with the cost, but
079it also comes with increased funding from the state. So I will say there can be a higher cost but at the same point in time the state recognizes that some of those programs are more expensive to run. So we do get some money through those programs >> on the track. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's built >> Yeah. >> It's built into the grant the basic grant. Yeah. And there's just from a programmatic standpoint, those are more expensive programs to run if you're thinking um from one year to the next. Who would want to take an AP physics course? So, you don't always have a steady supply. At the elementary level, everybody is going to take third grade math. Everybody is going to take third grade English. It's more or less predictable. It is less predictable
080at the high school level, especially when I would say when you get to the junior senior level where students have more options. >> I was also going to say when you look at what we used to charge for transfers to come in, we charged more for 7th through 12th than we did for K through 6. And so it was um and and for us to educate the kids, there's a difference of 800. TSC was a little bit different, but anyway, across the board, the most expensive was 9 to 12 nth to 12th grade. Um, and it's a difference of about $900. And so that was the difference because we were billing families depending on what grade they were in. And then we said what it cost us, could we put on the chart, what TSC
081could put on the formula, and then what was the difference. And it is, it's not a ton, but there is a higher it was a higher cost to send kids to our schools. Um if you are in seventh through 12th >> you >> just a follow just a follow up uh with uh David comments regarding the current transfer number 158 and uh so I feel you said oh if we stop taking transfers we will lose that many students state funding the the assumption for that comments is people will not change where they live with the policy. But the reality is people will change where they live with the policy. So if we open um we encourage people or at least we don't encourage people to live in. So if we close we encourage people to
082live in the district. So I feel that that again that's a dynamic pro process and also if we close we also encourage people who don't need to send their kids to our schools to sell their house at a good price and leave elsewhere if the market is good >> Lawrence >> long no see >> oh that's okay yes I just want to share something because the survey regarding the survey things. Uh we uh the major purpose uh we do this surveys we want to get better understand of our uh communities uh what their perspective regarding our uh transfer policies. So majorly two things one is uh what is our policy affect their u uh their uh they're moving either or not they are moving into the state into the district or move out. So there
083that's one uh question we try to figure out. Another thing is uh we try to figure out uh about um uh our policy the the policy impact on their intention to uh support the referendum. So for those two questions I look at the data totally we have uh 600 I think 626 uh in district response and if you look at their um intention to move out of district and uh if we open the uh district so there's about 99% saying they are going to uh move out of uh district so uh and that's a little bit because that's something This is like 60 99 or 600 something like a one over 6.3 uh persons will move out if we open the uh open the uh the transfer. So that's a little bit uh for me
084I don't know what you guys think but for me a little bit scary. You you walk down the road walk the dog around the community and every six properties you will see a for sale sign. Uh that's uh I'm not comfortable with that. So basically we want the we still want to build a strong and stable uh uh communities. So and regarding the affordabilities I think we have if I am correct we have more than 20% uh of our student what something like 25% on the half lunch for free lunch or lunch so something like uh that uh 20 25% right something like >> yeah I thought 23 >> 23 >> yeah something >> we'll look at >> yeah that that's okay something like around at least is more than 20%. So, so people I
085mean people saying it's too too expensive and cannot afford that's not alone. We have we have many of them in our uh district but uh the things from our uh from borders point of view because we want to make a we want based on our decision based on the consequence so it's not really uh people can be in the housing market if I mean one or six people put their housing on market and then there will be pressure on the housing price and uh the housing price will very quickly transfer to our uh revenues that we may uh going down to revenues. So that's uh for our uh long-term financial uh sustainabilities. So I think uh that's probably uh something we need to take into consideration and also it took a village uh who is
086uh a child. So as all my board member shares uh we invite we welcome the transfer student. I I welcome transfer student but I not only welcome the transfer student I also welcome their families. So please uh join us join our communities. Uh the the school is just uh is not a standalone institute is part of a community and community our foundation. So join us together we can build a a strong community. So that's regarding um the the community and when you put the the housing on the market doesn't means people the pricing going down and it make the housing affordable. There's some investors may came in they take the house and the rental to some uh students for the business and then the whole u the whole uh the structure the compositions of the
087community uh changes. So maybe may so from our school point of view maybe we I mean they may transfer that to the I mean short-term Airbnb things. So maybe you permanently lost the the student I mean in this in the district. So that's uh one concern I have and regarding the uh uh referendum since I see we have question if we open the policy what's your intention for the next referendum if we close the uh transfer what's the intention uh support and not support for the ref next referendum so from what I can tell if we close the um uh transfer we get 61% to support for next referendum. But if we open, we end up with 47%. So that's something like a 40 14% difference and 47% is kind of below below 50%. So
088I my point is uh I mean the transfer student can bring in some cash no problem. Go ahead. >> I was waving somebody was leaving. >> Oh, okay. So that's okay. I Yeah, I just I saw you was testing something. That's fine. Uh so basically my point is uh transfer can bring in some uh money but we don't want uh uh risk of our uh referendum. Uh it is also a good opportunity to uh build up uh uh the the co- community trust. So we have stable um and um strong community. So we have u financial we have uh financial support. So we long term we can have provide the best education to our uh student. So there's u I mean this is quite complicated. So but we need u think about this u those
089that's my concern regarding this u this whole process and a couple days ago I talked to a a student and uh she has a she has a kids in our school. So she's saying do you guys decide I I have to she have to make a decision rent apartment in in district so she don't need to buy a car or she move out the district have a cheaper apartment but she have buy a car so I mean so what I'm saying is our decision is not just we say here just make decision it's quite uh quite impact to a lot of families so I hope we can answer the questions and people's questions and we can better uh get the better policies. I won't say uh I don't think we have find perfect policy everybody
090happy but we try to try to make that that's all. Thank you. >> Thank you George and then David. >> So I'm glad you mentioned renters because that's actually one of the thing we need to think about and not just us but everybody in the community because uh we have a lot of apartments here and a lot of people who rent houses. um renters can vote for one and two um anybody that's renting in an apartment is not paying property taxes and the property taxes for the people who do own those apartment buildings was just reduced. So there is a lot that we have to consider, not just home prices and not just uh whether or not people are going to buy in or buy out of the district, but we also have to consider
091the people who may not be paying property tax at all, but still live and work amongst us just like anybody else. >> Um David, go ahead. prefer to have them closer to 20. Um, how many more students would we be looking at potentially getting if we went to an open district model where we had to do a lottery versus maintaining the current system um maybe be more scalled out uh with PSC? Um I think having some of those pieces would be would be really helpful. What's the added cost beyond class initial classrooms of added students? Um what how do how do you propose to evaluate this each year? I do think that having some type of um not a good formal evaluation but review of what where we're at each year is is good a
092good good practice. So I I'd like for all of us to provide that information to our administration now and we can also do it through email over the next week so that they can provide us with their recommendations so that we can then discuss company. >> You keep doing spoilers for what I'm going to say. Let's hear what Rachel has to say and then we'll uh move toward that. >> You know, I get excited and we start talking about policy. Um, I have a um a series of questions on this policy that's in our packet to take a look at tonight. And I don't know that you would have answers to them, but I wanted to kind of walk through with you what I saw as I was reading it. Um, starting with C125, um,
093section A, item two. Um, there just seems to be, um, some question like board versus the superintendent. I think it's a language thing, but it must notify the board of school trustees, superintendent of the school corporation. I I don't believe that we want parents to notify us. So, I I just think there's a language issue in that section. >> To be clear, this is the the policy draft from CCHA. So what you would do as a board is as you're suggesting that that's the kind of detail that you would discuss in the committee and then the entire board would determine that. >> So that is the only one of my questions that is of that typographical nature. The rest of them are questions. So I just I didn't want to leave that one off. That
094was >> no and I just wanted you to understand that we we've put this in here from there. We haven't like developed something. It's the policy to keep us consistent with the >> church or central that we use today. And then from there you guys would with us work to consider community input versus board expectation versus what we do as practice. We would do that very similarly to >> uh the other policies. >> Well and I I know I agree and I I think though that some of reading this policy it was very helpful to have this policy because at draft from them just because as I was reading it it brought up questions in my mind that I think other board members may also have. Um, in item C, it states specifically that non-resident
095students may be accepted into the summer school program provided by the corporation. So to me, that means that it's an exception to transfer student. Anybody could come in say we had a summer science offering. Anybody could apply to be in that is great. My question is, is that specifically uh exclude remediation? is summer school remediation, say at the elementary level, is that separate from this or should there be language that is separate? I do believe it would be a disadvantage to some of our students who may need some additional academic support if 10 additional kids came over because they heard we had a great summer reading program. So, I think philosophically that's just a question I had when I was reading it. And I don't know what the current practice is and I don't know
096if that summer remediation is actually considered to be summer school or if it is a separate beast. Um I know you're not expected answers but just thinking how we would do this at the table um with the committee and then coming back my assumption would be that we would do current practice and because we have transfers now right with TSC we do not invite other district students it's our students so the students that are our current transfer students and our students that we have in district so that is a discussion we'd have I would not recommend We do we go out and invite others in, but we could certainly have that discussion like we normally would. >> That might be a good question for our principles to see if if that might be a revenue.
097>> No, >> we could ask the principles. Yes. But I'm just saying I I don't know that we would even as a board I think this is premature. Are we going to pass it and then we would have that dialogue? >> Okay. >> But I'm happy to talk about it. I'm just saying it's kind of premature. >> I Well, and I I just I have two more things that I just I don't understand fully and I just want to put them out there as I think I think they're important and I think this is a situation while I have great confidence that Lawrence and David and I would have a great conversation. I think these are going to be sticking points for our community as well because they touch very much on that point of
098um of making sure that our students have a priority. Um so another one is um in item D there is a a question about um a a student who leaves midy year and one thing I noticed in here is it doesn't specifically address the exception for seniors for 12th grade students and so that's one thing I have a question is we need to clarify that once they're a senior they just get to stay and that is protected so that that language isn't in here um >> we can certainly going to clarify it, but that's the law. So whether or not that's policy or not, as our attorney always says, the law supersedes. So if we have a senior, they're here for the year. >> Correct. And I but I do think is a community member
099reading any they they would perhaps also have that question. And then finally, my last item on this one is really just a question in item E. It talks about um for staff um students, it talks about a boundary of $8,000. Um and I am just curious what of our employees, I'm assuming coaches fall in that. Uh what what of our employees would fall under that $8,000 mark. Um when we talk about a teacher, a a staff member um coming in. Yeah. What does that look like? I'm sorry. And I I Yeah, it's item E um section 3A where we get that. Um, so I'm just I'm curious about that section and and in in there is what staff would it affect and when you come back to us I'd be curious to know what that
100looks like in a practical position. >> So um I think this is a good point for you have to start somewhere which I say about every meeting. Um, and I don't think that going through C125 and arguing word by word or line by line is going to be a good idea, but I do agree with Rachel that things that might need need to be bounced to legal or to the administrators in the buildings um would be good things to raise early so that when you as a a policy committee come together to discuss this policy, you have that information. So, um, David or Lawrence go ahead. Yeah, it's fine microphone. >> Yeah, that's a question procedure question. So our com I mean also to the question to you committee I mean the policy committees do
101you think I mean this is the issue um do you think we can work on the first and then the whole bar discuss or maybe we can have the whole board have a working session to working on these things what I mean what do you guys think >> well I would in my opinion there's going to be some different opinions about some of these matters right I I think and so I think our normal process of taking a policy and inserting different board member opinions opinions and recommendations on language is important. I mean, if if there are some So, I think we it's a bothand. I would do both hand. I think that there are also going to be potentially some members of the board who say, I don't like this policy at all and
102I do not want to pass it. And if that's the case, then then that's another function of this policy is to is to vote it down, right? So, I think that we just for me it's about putting together the most cohesive option packet for a policy and then determining what is in it and then what passes. >> And to clarify, so the $8,000 that's determining if it's a staff transfer or a transfer that's not a staff member to to make sure you understand that, Mrs. Wit. And an example could be like a lunch aid. They would not qualify. they to be a staff member, but they wouldn't qualify. And to answer your question, if the board wants that information, we absolutely can work with our HR department and figure out exactly which staff members that
103involves. Um, but that's one example. Um, and so that would be to determine that wouldn't change this. This again is legal. So that wouldn't change. This is to spell it out which ones are staff members that are transferring uh and which ones then are non- staff members. Um especially um if the determination is that staff members have priority in in a in a lottery type situation. So spelling that out would be important but it wouldn't change. It would be what's stated there. Does that make sense? >> Right. It for me I just would like to understand the impact. That's really where I'm coming from is what >> those are the current numbers we use. So in theory it would be the impact that it currently is and has been. >> Okay. Okay. >> And I
104I know that there there are some positions where it people know which positions would qualify versus wouldn't qualify. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Dean, go ahead. >> Um so in discussing the timeline and then I do have a question on the policy. I think it would be helpful for the policy committee to work through this because it is very unimpressive what they put together and how messy I mean I'm very unimpressed with legal counsel for what they gave to us. There's lots of errors in that. So I think someone and the policy committee starting it and making it as clean as possible to meet the needs would be helpful. But my concern is if we wait for the policy committee to do that, then we start discussing whatever went on it in February, then it's
105not ready for us to vote by March. And so I feel like it would be super helpful whoever policy committee or whoever prep something. We then have a discussion about it and have everything the best that we can. And like Rachel says, we're not voting on it, but at least have it like here's the options that's going to be on a transfer policy ready to go by February so that it is potential to vote um in March. I did have a couple things that I did think would be helpful to discuss as a board. Um not that anyone needs to share their opinions. I mean, meaning the policy committee can put all this in there. I just think there's some things that we need to seriously understand and consider is when so capacity like David's
106point is I think key to this. What is capacity look like? Um because we have capacity set right now yet we exceeded that capacity and accepted transfer students this year. So kind of addressing what are we saying is capacity, how are we going to not cross that? That I think is a very complicated and needs to be dealt with. But the other part that I feel like that is really needs to be considered is how do we prioritize who applications get accepted and there so the first question is our current transfer students are we going to put in policy that once you've been accepted even if we exceed capacity you're still allowed to stay or once we exceed capacity now are kids worried you know so that's got to be addressed in the policy in
107my view and then the point of what priority rules. So, right now the policy says if you're a staff member or if you have siblings in the school district, you're treated equally. You get the highest priority. But the thought would then be if we're past capacity, we now have teachers who do not get to bring their kids in the school district is the way it's currently written. And so, is that really, you know, we've brought a preschool students who begin kindergarten? We have to put in it um students who had a resident No, we don't have to. We've covered the students who had a resident change, but will they get any priority? So, if a student's been in our school district for 10 years, they move out, they are now not considered a current transfer
108student, but are they just thrown in the mix like everyone else or do they get a priority? Um my understanding is we do have to say students from an accredited non-public school we have to allow allow them to have priority over others um is what Indiana code says but we can pick the order and so in reading a bunch of policies it looks like as a board we get to determine at what level are we going down and if it's like staff children they just get in even if it's past capacity or like who is that involving And then what's the level? So let's say we have two spots open and we have siblings from a family applying and we have past students who've changed residents and we just have two new families. Are all
109of those applications getting thrown in the lottery or are just the top one? And so part of the discussion needs to be and in some ways I think if we at least people and they maybe haven't had a chance to think about it were to share a few voices maybe the policy could be a little cleaner you know because it's sure there's a lot of things to consider even on that one point. >> I just want to say Mrs. of you're spot on and to support what you're saying, we were looking at as we were hearing community input, but we didn't want to be presumptuous, of course, but we were looking at and we actually started toying around with writing policy for with what we heard, but then we looked at uh this starting point
110policy and then we started tying it into that and then we kind of said, and you can speak up because I'm speaking for you can say Sean, wait, change uh we started saying wait a minute now we're talking policy versus guidelines versus FAQ because we've been hearing that too because some so the policy could be making sure we're following the law. We didn't know if you if the we want to make sure we understand exactly what you're saying Mrs. Muffford it's it truly makes sense what is it you want in the policy versus don't want in the policy. if the board can guide us on that, we can start working with um our attorney and we can start presenting you with something. We can go back and forth like we've even like what we did
111with the survey, right? So, I I think you're spot on. I appreciate you guiding us to this part of the dialogue because we do want to shape it based on what the board wants. Um and and we do need to think too, do we want policy to be bare bones and then go into guidelines and and then FAQ with procedures? um that's something the board's got to discuss and then we can move accordingly. So we kind of backed off until this meeting because we realized what we're putting the cart before the horse. The board hasn't even had this important discussion. >> So I think you know all seven board members should share with you their input and then you decide what to do. My personal view is it would be extremely helpful if a frequently
112asked questions document was started and shared with the community. There's a lot of general questions that they're asking and I think it would be helpful for this policy for administrators to look at it and say this is what we heard and here's what we're recommending and then as a board we can say I like this I don't agree with this what about ch doing that but to me it feels like all of us trying to change what legal counsel said is just a bunch of extra work when um you're not dictating to us by putting in policy but you are guiding us. And then my third personal opinion is I think this polic should policy should be as clear and transparent about what our plans are and not random vague you know if you have
113a history of absences. We don't want any community member to feel like they don't understand what our policy is. Now I get the more we put in it like I said this is my personal opinion. The more we put into it the more likely then in the future we have to vote to change it. But what I'm hearing in my view is that's what the community wants. They don't want a policy that behind the scenes gets changed. They didn't realize it was getting changed. If it's all in a policy to change any of it, the community is going to be well informed it's being changed, get to have a voice. And so that's why I think it would be helpful to be much more comprehensive. But that's my personal opinion. >> And we could absolutely
114support that. We just again we wanted to hear that because there's two different ways you could go at that. So, I really appreciate the dialogue and obviously we want to hear everybody and ultimately I think we would want to hear in writing like we have even when we've posted the survey from board members. Correct. So, we could start working on that. Mrs. Rob, >> that was going to be my recommendation. George and then Rachel. >> Um Dea, if you know, I'd be glad to hear from you or if um Sean and if you know, but you mentioned that in seventh grade in particular, we were over capacity. Um, do you know or does anybody know if we were over capacity because of people moving in and we had already accepted the a lotment of transfers
115for that time period or did we accept new transfers that put us over the capacity >> when we're talk about seventh grade? This is seventh grade last year's seventh grade or this year's seventh grade. Okay. >> Because that that to me would make a huge difference. So, if we were already at capacity and then we had some unexpected people move in, there's not a lot anybody can do about that. But if we were at capacity and decided to accept 15 new students from outside the boundaries anyway, then that's the sort of thing that I think most people would have a problem with. I would love to have included in the policy how to handle that situation because I think if we set our capacity so high that we accept transfer students and then we get
116a few families that we didn't anticipate and it pushes us over in my view the capacity is set too high. our capacity needs to be at a level and that's why I think it'd be helpful to get a recommendation because we do have in district students that are choosing to go to school in other schools and then come back into ours at certain grade levels. And so we need to prep for that. We can't accept kindergarten thinking that besides move in and moves out that's going to keep the same. And so my view is we need a capacity that's going to give us a little flexibility so that we can feel confident to accept a couple transfer students, but then it doesn't push us way over like it is right now. Um where we're now
117exceeding quite a bit what we had wanted. >> We've talked about that and I appreciate that. I appreciate you talking about it here. We certainly would want to have dialogue with the board and set what we want it to look like as far as that capacity goes. So what we've given you as a starting point, we understand there may be flexibility there and we understand that when you open up and may have to go toward a lottery. We've never really had to do that. And what happened I think with the 209 was probably the move from elementary to high school and it caught us offguard, but I agree with you, Mrs. Mumford, we can and should put safeguards in place. Um, and you know that we feel that way because we've talked about that with
118you before. Um, and I think it's very doable and would certainly would want the input of the board as well. Okay, Rachel, I I don't disagree that there's a need to be very specific in policy, particularly when it comes to that pecking order and whatever, but I do want to throw caution out there. Um, as Mrs. Mumford is saying, hey, I I want to make sure that the community can be involved in all of those edits. The other thing that we heard or I I heard on the survey was that the community and and families who are transferring in, they're they're looking for also some stability. And if every year we're revising a policy that dictates the pecking order and makes changes, what we are doing is taking away that stability. So I do think
119that there is a sweet spot between flexibility and stability and and good policy will will hit that sweet spot. So I I don't we can't make it up for debate every single year. Um it it just to me that would not be good for our our community. um or our schools >> and even to further support um ensuring that community felt safe or comfortable. It's I think that the reviews would be is it working while we're doing or does it need tweaked versus are we dropping I don't think that anybody on the board would want to go back and forth like that. But in the way that when Mr. Reutder comes and we do the look at the budget and we look at capacity and number of students and enrollment trends. I think the board
120would which the board does now but would continue to have dialogue but also would be very transfer transparent with regard to the dialogue related to the policy and the guidelines and the capacity numbers that are set. um and even to where like what we're talking about with the 209 are we in a situation like that again no one would purposely do that but as Mrs. Munford said, "Are the guid are is it too close to where it's happened and then what do we do about it?" And so I I just think it's good collaborative efforts between an administration and um and the board. Rachel, >> I I agree and I the other thing I want to say about that too is that we we do have to be aware that um TSC in particular, we
121need to have some level of good neighborliness and so um they we we also need to be have some level of stability for them and they're not the McDonald's or school corporations who can give us the fries or not, right? So I think we um that stability extends even beyond the families. It extends into a relationship, a good collaborative working relationship with our surrounding school corporations and leadership. >> And we do have that collaborative relationship. We all work very well together and both districts accept transfers to a degree. So if we became like them, we wouldn't be any less collaborative. In fact, I don't see anything changing. >> David, >> I'm jumping back a few things. Um but in terms of uh capacity um what I think would be really helpful here is having what
122is our target? What is our ideal where we're trying to get to like is it 22 per classroom at this age and what is true capacity like is 24 our max capacity where like it becomes untenable after that. so that we have a target where you can fluctuate a tiny bit over that if necessary. And that's where we're aiming towards um having, but it also gives us a little bit of room to make sure that those years where we do have influxes of kids moving into the district or um just larger classes, groups of kids that that can um that can be flexible to not reach what our capacity is. It it'll help I think target what are the numbers we want for transfers. >> Yes. And if if you look what what you see
123now is what we use. >> Yeah. >> Currently. And so I I totally agree. And and but with that then if you want to give input um and so everybody can see it then we can adjust accordingly. >> Is that the target or max capacity? >> Uh it says targeted. >> Yeah it it's it that it is targeted to answer the I didn't realize you were asking I apologize. So I didn't realize you were asking a question. I thought you were saying we would want to do that. And so that's targeted. Yes. >> Okay. Cuz the the max capacity that we have um is I believe it's essentially um target class size times total classes, right? And so >> correct. >> Um but our target average class size um if that's our target, it's also
124not it's our target isn't our capacity, our max capacity. like we could go over that and and not necessarily um have issues like right. We >> we could but we really work hard and we even in discussions talk with teachers each year. And so it could even mean that if there were a lot of students uh on a weight list in a certain grade if we were having for example a lottery. It could be where we were and it would take it would be the communication, but it's the transparency that we've talked about too, which is a good thing. It could be where if there's 15 students on a wait list and we're at 22 or whatever we set at, so we didn't go over like we talked about with the 209 situation. Uh it
125could be where if you get 10 more students, it makes sense to bring in another teacher. And um that'd be discussion. we'd have the pros and cons of it as a board, which is what you would do when you determine even if you were a closed district of whether or not we were going to open another classroom. That I hope I'm answering your question. That would be that ongoing dialogue and reviewing the situation. >> I think it would be helpful to have what is our target like is our target actually going to be um that 22 to 25 per classroom or is an ideal class size lower than that, but if we had to we could go over. I think that that's a discussion that we should all have at some point or get your
126recommendations on. The other piece that I uh wanted to come back to was policy versus guidelines and practices. Uh many of the policies that we have been going through say and administrator guidelines will be developed. I think this is actually one where those administrator guidelines and practices need to come handinhand with the policy. Um, and so having as much of that drafted out, um, >> that would be my recommendation and I hope that we'll have lots of dialogue on that and we want every board member to feel comfortable with this, but I would recommend >> not quite as detailed of a policy as guidelines, but that the guidelines are as in the hands of the board as the policy. >> Yeah. and and and that those guidelines are are well shared and very clearly made
127available. >> Yes. >> To the community. So, it's super transparent. >> And then even with and we heard this in in in um the focus groups even an FAQ that is ongoing developed uh and very user friendly. >> Does anybody else on that side of the table have anything you need to share? Just something that I think I'm I mean to be cons to consider is at least the way I look at them is policy is something that we are following guidelines is something that administrators behind the scenes are doing to meet those policies and that's why for something like the transfer policy some of these details I would you know like I said it's my opinion I would like it part of the policy so it's very clear to our community what's driving it
128the process so for example Well, somewhere you have to sh say that you're going to have a publicly verifiable random selection process if we go to a lottery. Okay. To me in policy it can say that in administrative guidelines you can give how you're going to pull that off. That's just like a detail. But a lot of these things that we're talking about to me isn't just a guideline. It's an actual policy that we want to put in place as a community and a board. And so that's how I have tried to differentiate which goes in what. And I understand there's a little bit of crossover, but I would like this one to be heavier policy, not just a recommended guideline that administrators have a little bit more control. >> I I think Mrs. Munford
129makes sense. There are certain things this board wants to look different and that and that's true for policy and that's why board votes on policy. It would just take dialogue and making sure that in the end everybody felt heard and that those non-negotiables for each board member they had what they needed to have in there and then regardless still hand inand the guidelines and they're posted equally as so that it's very transparent and there's trust. We've seen and some of you have shared this for since I got here that there is question there are questions about the current practice that for for me I came in and I know what we've been doing but there's questions and in some ways distrust and the clearer we are the better and we we want trust and we
130want community involvement um always and so um we've certainly learned through this process that whatever we do We want to make sure it's accessible the information transparent and that there are places where um patrons can get answers on on the website. >> So there are two different ways we could go about the next step. What I think is reasonable is for Dr. Grryer and his team to take all of the information that they've gained from the survey from the uh inerson and virtual forums from all of us and bring to us in February a first reading document that does its very best to fold in all that information with the understanding that the seven of us and the community still has the opportunity to email them us him with their recommendations or their concerns during
131that couple weeks between now and the February meeting. And then if we can first reading it in February and have a really close maybe or workable um document then in March we can second reading and vote. Is that going to work for you? >> Absolutely. and we'll start working on like a back and forth Friday notes like we've done um to make sure that uh this is fluid and ongoing. Um and we like I said we were already toying around with some stuff. We just didn't go we backed way off because we realized you needed to have this discussion and you needed to start guiding us on what you wanted. But what we'll want to know as we do this is are you wanting more leaning toward policy or less um as we as we
132draft some some stuff. Um, and we'll work on it as we go and we will work with our attorney as we go too so that when even when we get to the next policy meeting, we've heard we've heard information and we're able to have dialogue with the members, but also report if we're all responding in in the way that we that you do where you're including each other, hopefully voices will be heard throughout this process from from day one. That sounds good to me. David, >> I am I'm wondering if if board members could all share anything that you expect to be put into um the policy or the guidelines um with Dr. Grryer and the rest of the board in the next like two days. >> Um because I just thinking timeline um today
133is the 29th, correct? um next week uh or the the next board meeting is on the 9th. Um if we were to try to squeeze in a policy board meeting, we could if we make a decision now, we could potentially do that Tuesday may or Wednesday morning. Um and then and then that would give very little time or just a little bit of time uh for the administration to revise things and get everything posted for a first reading. Um, so if everybody's able to provide specifics on what they want that way, because my worry is that we get to a first reading, comes to policy committee, and it's a pretty thorough over overhaul, that might require that it goes to another first reading if it's substantially different. So, if we can get all of that
134in um or all the feedback in today and tomorrow um and then um let's try after this meeting to schedule a policy committee meeting um if if timeline works out. I think that would be helpful to make sure this process moves quickly, >> right? Yeah. Knowing that you didn't have a meeting before our next meeting was why I went that direction first, but if you guys can make that happen, I think that'd be great, too. I I don't care from where it comes as long as we can move quickly. Not for me or for my own um aims, but because I know we have families waiting on us to make a decision and I want them to have as much time as possible to make the right decision for their family. Okay, everybody. Cool. Any
135final comments or remarks or any for the good of the order? UA go ahead. And I think for for the capacity that we have been talking about and it's very important to make sure that we have a total capacity and also capacity for each of the grid. Another idea I heard actually from the community is we can also set up the capacity as a percentage. So that way we can prevent people from keep maybe they don't move out but as for new families they do they don't need to they don't have the cost for moving then they will be motivated to leave outside if we keep taking more and more transfers. So if we set the the percentage limit okay for example currently our transfer students is um 6.9% and u so if we set
136up the that percentage let's say 7% or something like that then that means at some point we will reach that limit then people have to compete for the spots And another thing is we understand the st the stability that everybody wish for but we have to be aware that at some time we cannot guarantee that and gu guarantee that once you are in you are always in. For example, what if we all in the sudden we have more in district uh students? What if we have more staff members students? We will prioritize them, right? We'll prioritize in district residents. We will prioritize staff members case then in all if we take everybody then we'll the the number will be over the limit we set up before. So that break our promise to the residents. So
137I I know the the person uh the possibility is low but I just feel we don't show we shouldn't put put ours in the certain situation that we have to take some liability because we overpromise things and also I heard from the community about the sibling issue. I totally understand the importance of family union but uh we should be aware that we shouldn't be overpromise and what if again what if we reach the the limit and can should we still take their siblings and uh so we cannot promise because for every new transfer students we check our capacity and we make a decision but one but we at the same time if we promise our sibling What should we do? Should we keep the promise for the uh residents or should we keep the promise
138for the transfer students? So we we will be in the decision in the position that we cannot satisfy two capable two promises. we shouldn't make up in meet ourself in that position and another point I think it's very important is whatever policy we set up they should be annual annual we need to do annual review make sure that uh yeah we we we don't promise anything forever basically and so the policy will change and for example whether we will charge or not the transfer fee will change based on the state policy there's no guaranteed or whatever forever promise and so I think that's very important to put it there that will give us the opportunity to review it every year to make any adjustment rather than make ourself liable for anything we said so >>
139okay I'm sorry I giggled I thought of a terrible joke about that's where we get those half students that you were anyway sorry Rachel please um >> I I' I want to say that it's a conversation I had many times over the past forever about students coming in on transfer. The only way to 100% guarantee that your child can attend West Lafayette schools is to live inside of the corporation boundaries. I I think that that is a known fact and that is definitely bear repeating. Families who do not live in corporation dis in the boundaries um there is intrinsically a risk to that situation and I don't think there's ever been uh an attempt to hide that or bury that. So, um, I don't I I but I do I agree that that's a relevant
140point to make to people as they look in. >> I think you make a great point, Mrs. Wit, that that is the only guarantee. And I think Dr. Yen makes a really good point that it's really important to have a disclaimer somewhere. And so, please send that to us whether it's directly in the policy or it's stated somewhere related to transfers. Um, and we heard that clearly in the focus groups, didn't we? those of you that well we heard it from the the report of our consultant too. So I think I think you're making great points and we we hope to see the suggestions from you and the guidance and we're going to make sure that we work hard to start getting some of this on paper or in writing and then we'll work hard
141to go back and forth with you to get it where the board is comfortable. And on that note, and it may be worth repeating in whatever policy we come up with, not only are you not guaranteed if you don't live within the boundaries, if you don't live within the boundaries and you do transfer, we don't transport you. >> Yeah, that's true. Which is a definite value for me. >> Yeah. It's just a we need to make sure that we don't really leave loopholes there. And because for example you know we also heard about oh staff member we definitely we support staff members make sure their kids can study here but what if somebody just work here for a very short time they transfer their kids in once they are in they can forever be in
142you know that sort of situation and uh maybe it's really rare but we just make sure our policy is robust enough and to avoid situation that people can play with the policy and it's just make sure there's no loopholes and uh so I think leave some kind of uncertainty for the transfer also motivate people to leave here basically and uh to support ours and maximum >> okay well I would like to um thank all of you for the respectful and productive dialogue tonight I think this was a really useful meeting and I'm sorry it was long um but I think it was needed and um please do email your thoughts to everyone to the board whatever.west West Lafayette so that we can hear from the community and also to from among each other that we
143have that um recorded. Would the two of you who came in after this was collected be sure to sign in before you leave just so we know you were here. And um if that's everything from everyone, I'll go ahead and adjourn at We did that in the middle unless did either of you have anything to communicate. Okay, then we're all set. Um 8:11 p.m. Thank you.