04/15/2026 Curriculum Committee Meeting

001Um, yes, it is for transcribing. So, we're good to go. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you everybody for being here at 7:30 in the morning on Wednesday the 15th of April, tax day. Uh, this is our curriculum committee meeting. Thank you members for being here and everybody from that's representing the course review guides. So, the curriculum review guides today. Um, do we have uh we have no one here? I don't think we're public comment. I don't see anyone, so we should be good to go. And that brings us to our first agenda item. Agenda item 3A, curriculum course guide review for K through5 music. And I see Michelle By here, who I've watched for many years to elementary music in our district and do so. >> Absolutely. >> Um, are you gonna start that? um

002with each of our curriculum course guides and my intent is sort of to introduce and then turn it over to the board for questions. Uh very much appreciate Michelle Binding here. Um she was one of three of our elementary music teachers and has really taken a leadership role um amongst that team and with creating the curriculum course guide. You'll see in the board docs that we have uh K5 one per grade level of our curriculum course guide. Our music teachers have the privilege of seeing our students three times or I'm sorry, two times a week for 30 minutes. Michelle says, "I wish three times a week." >> It's 27 >> 27 welcome to a school where every minute counts. Um so I appreciate that. Um she uh worked with her team to uh document the

003work that they are doing in their buildings. Um, I do just want to say that we had a robust discussion of the fact that um, it is nearly impossible to include every piece of work and every piece of music that they're using. Mainly because a few things. Number one, um, they each do different types of performances across the district. And so they really want to tailor their selections based on the school and the time of year of the performance. And then number two, obviously just that uh those teacher pedagogical choices, knowing what pieces of work will really meet the needs of the student and meet the learning targets that the students are needed towards. So you'll see in those curriculum course guides a sample of potential music that they might be using, but they really

004do make individual choices across the board with that. Obviously, as I will uh always uh reiterate is that goes hand inhand with our controversial issues policy. And so if any of the course or if any of the musical selections in the elementary music or any of the curricular selections were to fall under what the board has outlined as a controversial issue then that notification would open for families and obviously families have the option of um having a conversation about opting out um whether or not that is being sent home but um it's very particularly controversial something that so good morning sorry um so that is just a brief overview. Um, we will intend to bring the 612 music probably next month. Um, but at this point, we just wanted to uh bring our elementary music

005in and I will turn it over to the board for any questions they may have. >> Well, I'll make a just an opening comment. I just want to again, you know, publicly thank all of you for the work that gets done on these. We are not um ignorant of the time. I mean, we obviously don't know exactly how much time, but um we know it takes a lot. We're very grateful for ask us and the timeliness that that showed up to whatever degree it helped everybody put these together. But we know that even with that, this is this is a major task. And our goal again, and we try to reiterate this every time we have one of these curriculum guides, is that this gets posted on our website so that parents can readily access

006the information. Um, we also know that in any of, and I'll just make this, if I may, just all across for the ELA site as well, but we realize that this is what is currently happening. you know, this is this is what you're you're telling everybody this is what we're doing. So, um we recognize that and want to respect the fact that that's what it is right now. That's not talking about what it might be in the future. Okay? So, these are not meant to be uh static. They're meant to be dynamic to some degree as as we go forward. But, uh we certainly do appreciate the fact that you put all this work into it. We want to make sure they're out there and used and we thank you for showing up today to

007talk to us about these things. So Lori, um really really enjoyed seeing Peter and the wolf on there. Brought back some great memories. U is there anything you would like us to know as board members? >> Gosh, I didn't anticipate that question. Um >> I don't think so. I think kind of you've covered like things just evolve as we're going and a lot of times it was hard to put some of these into paper um because I'm always watching for new ideas or sometimes something hits you in the middle of the lesson when they're not grasping a concept and it's like oh let me try this or let me pivot to this but that's not always going to be reflected and it's hard to reflect that. Um or you just see something that somebody put

008you know on on social media or somewhere as a great new idea. I don't want to be limited by a week. That's not in my C curriculum course guide. I can't use that song or I can't use that because it's not listed. So, those were some maybe concerns that we had as we were putting it together because things do change. Your students change and it's what would have worked great for this group this year. Your next year, they might not be into that at all and you have to pivot and find a new way to teach that same concept. So followup question that um how are you finding navigating the controversial issues policy because you could put literally anything in there. >> Um but the controversial issues policy covers like notice for parents. Me personally,

009I'm a peacekeeper and so anything that I feel like is going to be controversial, I'm just gonna find something else. So, I do know that some of my colleagues have sent out a letter for something they were using, but me personally, I just would like to keep everybody happy and avoid that if avoiding conflicts if possible. And I think that our staff does an amazing job of notifying families about what the work is in their courses any no matter what, right? Sending home newsletters. It looks a little different in kindergarten uh than it does when they're seniors in high school, I think. But just uh keeping folks um and families aware um through communication through different uh newsletters and through the app that we can't remember what it's called right now that we use with

010families to communicate >> rooms. Thank you very much. Um and so we do our very best just to communicate with families with that as well. solve that and also open door you know I think that's another piece and I I will always go back to the fact that I think the controversial issues letters and um to me that is the start of a conversation with a family if there is a level of concern I would never um I would always encourage families you know even at the start of the year if there's something and I know these conversations have happened in our buildings and are happening in our buildings like if at the beginning of the year the family wants to share something with the school that is of concern for them. Then we notify

011teachers and we work specifically with that family. I can think of examples right now. Um where we're working with specific families about things that they may have concerns about um and just working to be responsive to them as well. So I appreciate your your comment and I think that that's a theme that we've heard um across uh curriculum area as well. >> Before we go any further, Jenny has a hard stop at at 8:45. If we need to go longer, we can. Actually, we'll be here. Um Jason's here. Jason's here. We got coverage for that. But um genuine stuff. So, any other comments for on the music side of things from D? I want to say give Michelle a real shout out here. I've been in her class many times. She had many student teachers

012and I was always impressed with what she did with the students. She gets a lot out of them. And there's some things I I take a lot of teachers that sometimes they can't get much out of the guys, but she gets she gets a lot out of the guys. So, I really appreciate what she does. I've watched her many times. Um, the only question I had was this is this is kind of just a a question of something I just want to know about a little bit. I noticed you checked critical thinking there starting with grade five and not below. How do you describe critical thinking in music class? >> So for example um we have a musician or a composer of the month. So this would be one example. And so we are going

013to listen to a piece that they composed. Some of their critical thinking might be um why do you think they chose to use this family of instruments here? What do you like things like that? Or in Peter and the wolf, why do you think that he chose to use a flute for the bird? So I guess we could have checked it younger because that's in second grade. >> That's part of what question was. >> So no, so that that would be like a a specific answer. So thinking about why composers maybe do things they do or how does this fit together? Do you see that? Sometimes it's seeing the connection of math and music and we're learning about counting. So that's another kind of they have to let them piece that together and that's always

014kind of fun to them to see like wait that's ratchets. We're doing fractions and music fit. >> Yeah. >> So yes, we'll go back and revisit that. Good answer. Good answer. Dan's hands >> and I just want to respond um Michelle to to your comment about your concerns. So this has been one of my concerns all along. When you do something like this without us, to what degree does it impact good pedagogy? Because because good teaching is always sensitive to the moment and you do have to make those adjustments in that classroom. And but I also appreciate the fact that if you were say in that caught that moment in a in a music class and the piece that came to your mind and it immediately rang a bell maybe that might be controversial for

015some people you said you know let's see if I could find it quickly another song will fill the gap. I I think that is incredibly smart and and helpful um so that we don't get into a situation where after the fact the somebody reacts to it. So the the um best force in that in that situation is the path of of wisdom and take the the piece that maybe doesn't have everything that the first piece had, but maybe it has enough to do the job, right? So, but it is a concern of ours for everybody. We're not trying um I don't know that I should I can't really speak for every board member. I can speak for me. I am not looking to trap you into a you know a pedagogical straight jacket. That's not

016the point. But we do think it's important that the public knows, parents in particular have some way to know what what is what's going on on the great scheme of things. So at a at a general look, they can pick up, you know, they can they can go and find out K through five what music class is going to look like and when we move over to the ELS ELA side, they can do that. So um that's how I see these things. But we do appreciate your concern on that. And by the way, I just want you to know, I know we restructured our elementary program, but I really miss the holiday presentation. They used to do in the high school year, and you had all those grades. It was 20 to 30 minutes per

017per class. They were in and out. They sang, they talked, they did all the school stuff, and you coordinated all of it. And kudos to you. Um I I thought it was great and I still miss it. It's been several years. Yeah, I I can speak to that a little bit too and I understand that and there are times that I miss it as well. Uh when we had to move to a spring program post pan pandemic, uh we decided to do a fiesta out on our um playground and there's no way to describe unless you're there the community feel. You can maybe speak to that. The community feel that it brings because we're having um kids are showing their artwork. We're sharing a meal together because families are bringing food. PTO feeds us. Um

018we're bringing in a mariachi band this year uh to finish out our night and it's just it became a time to create more community within our school and so that is why I have stuck with that. So yes, I do miss pieces of that holiday program, but I think the benefits of the community feel outweigh that. Has your job gotten heavier since it more complicated as years have gone on? You go from one school to another, right? Still work at your school. So, uh, as is that one reason why you can't do some things as much because there's more going on. >> It certainly makes it difficult when you're at two schools. >> Um, like for example, this is my to the end of the year. where I have a performance next week and then

019I have another one in two weeks and then I have take the fourth graders to Madison in another two weeks. So, it's constant and sprinkled in there is a whole bunch of pizzazz performances. So, it's a little you know it's a little crazy right now. >> Music people are very busy. I know that >> also it does that shortened I know I joked about the 27 minutes but it's hard to get the 4K from the way other end of the building to my room exactly on time. It's just you know for example um so sometimes my classes are 20 23 minutes just you know where somebody has a meltdown on the way or who knows what happens. Um, but they used to be 30, but when you're thinking about that shorter time, that's kind of

020some of the problem, too. It's it's hard to get everything in, >> that little bit of time >> from visiting. I know that and that's why I asked the question. So, uh, but, uh, appreciate what you do. Appreciate your work on this so much. And I echo what, uh, Chel just said because we don't look at these as you have, you can't do anything else, but what's on that paper. We wanted to check as you were walking >> and I know you do a good job at that. So, we're not worried. Thank you. >> Well, and I think >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> All right. Um, hearing the discussion, I assume it would be appropriate for us to finalization for April. Excellent. And then I know that Michelle was incredibly anxious to get back

021to her class because she was explaining to me the schedule and their performance and she's going to miss them. So you feel free to head back. I will do that cuz your 27 minutes. >> I I know they have a performance and I would be out front with the show parts on >> I don't know which >> thanks very much. Okay, that brings us to um agenda items 3B, curriculum course reviews and WHSA. Do you want to take the Riverside first? >> Yes, I would. >> Yep. So, >> you want to set it up for us? >> I would love to unless you >> No, you go ahead. >> Okay. So, um um as you recall last month, we did discuss the RMS 68 ELA course guides. There were some questions as it related to

022a specific seventh grade lesson and I very very very much appreciate um Emily Aner and Chesca Hortman joining us this morning. They are seventh grade teachers and we knew that they would be uh best able to address that. So this morning I think our intent is to specifically discuss any questions that related to that for those curriculum first. I also know that Lori got an opportunity to go visit um and I know that we wanted to just uh take an opportunity just to discuss that specifically as it relates to the 68. One thing for the committee members, the reason that the other grades are on there that say um I forget the term here it says updated or it's because uh the titles needed to be changed. It wasn't substantive in the document themselves. Okay.

023So just seventh grade was >> I was wondering about that. Yeah. >> And I think it was we had to add honors to >> honors. >> It was mostly just in the tit. >> I I I had asked as you I'm sure you did that Lori talked about her questions. >> Yeah. Well, it was um it was really fun. Uh they they showed me all of the coursework related to our questions and um it it was it was great. Uh, very rigorous, much more rigorous than I remember. Uh, uh, I and then I went home and I I read read over read the book and I read over all of the um, especially uh, handout 16b, right, which I have up here. And um, well while the actual um, coursework is second to none. It

024really is amazing. Um I am I am concerned about um the subject not being um addressed in a complete way. Now these are great teachers. I was very impressed. Um I'm not concerned about that. I am concerned about the the the actual curriculum that it's it's not giving enough context for the students. Um and um one of the things that it doesn't address is the whole the tone of the handout 16 which is excerpts from an article written about um Carl Mars and it's very it's very flattering right and um it's it says the this is a little excerpt the the work of Karl Mars and Fred Kangle angles not only introduced the world of communism in a class society. It forced individuals to examine cap the capitalist system and inspired important historical events such

025as the re the Russian revolution and the cold war. Um there's there's this is a big topic and I I think it gives just enough information to get pe kids in trouble, right? Uh and so I I don't think this was a great choice on the part of Whitten Wis Wisdom to to cover this and then leave the fallout to the teacher as as to you know explaining like the entire economic system in you know multiple countries and political systems and that sort of thing and a lot you know somebody would argue that oh the book explains it. Well, I read the book. The book doesn't really explain it. It ex I got the impression from the book and maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. That um you know, communism is a

026great idea, right? It's it's it's altruistic and it's wonderful and and it was just implemented wrong, right? And I've heard that before and I wonder I'm like where wonder where that comes from, you know? Um, and so the it's it's missing the drill down because this is not a history class, right? This a and the the teacher doesn't have time to do that, right? So I I was disappointed in the curriculum. I very much appreciate your point and I think the last thing you said is really kind of what I was aligning to is that this isn't a history class. And I think um when we're discussing our ELA courses, I think really turning us in into looking at what what are the standards it's addressing. And we have not yet looked at the curriculum

027course guides um across the board for social studies. And I'm not going to sit here and tell you that it's addressed, you know, at the exact same time with social studies at that point. But I think we have to remember that it's in the context of an ELA course and what are the ELA standards addressing and then holistically maybe when we look at some other coursework you see other pieces there as well. Um, and so that's sort of initially what I think when you say to me it is an industry course, I agree with you. It is an ELA course. And I appreciate your point about and I think it kind of relates to the conversation we were having at music too, is that um, these individuals who are teaching our courses are making many,

028many, many decisions every single hour that they're teaching. I think I I don't remember the specific study, but I remember there was a study that I read that counted how many decisions a day a teacher is making. Um, and I think that that is within the context of that course and the context of those ELA standards. Um, and so I appreciate your point and I agree with your point. It's not a history class and our it does leave a lot of responsibility for our teachers and our teachers take a lot of responsibilities in a lot of ways as well to ensure that um students that they're in that course. So I do appreciate that point. I I agree with you that it's not a history class, but I don't know of any other subject that

029touches on history simultaneously any more than English. If you study literature from the context of a historical era, you study it from a cultural aspect, um you English is one of these ones that is, you know, very crosscurricular. It's crosscurricular, but it's also kind of like symbiotic and it works with a synergy with other courses. And so I think Lor's point is that what we're asking of teachers is when something like this shows up as a handout, okay, that they think about what might need to be said to to at least warn students that this is one opinion. There are other opinions about this. And um do I understand this right on these handouts? they are automatically available to students >> separate than their student workbook. So it's not really a handout handout. It's a

030it's a instructional material that is available to them as a part of the of the textbook series. Right. >> So so they have access to it and and if they read these kinds of things in isolation because I think what you're trying to do with this in this context of this particular um lesson um is critical thinking. It's it's understanding some of the I can't remember exactly what that was tied to, but it was tied to a very specific standard and a very specific uh topic within that lesson. But I do think that this is where um comments from teachers are appropriate and that we look to our teachers to to at least make some kind of a statement saying this is this is just one side of the story. Um, I'm just going to

031reiterate. I think critical thinking is making sure teaching critical thinking involves making sure students have more than one view of a subject or an issue or a topic and that they then are able to with direction especially able to look at both or multiples and and start reading with comprehension and working within their own worldview and perspective and value system and everything else to to come But okay, well, this one's good, this one's not. So, that's I think what what's that is what Lory's getting at here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, um the the statement that you said keeps ringing in my head with this about how you can have, you know, an okay curriculum and a knockout teacher and the teacher can compensate for it. And it it's not as a board, it's not our

032job to teach the class, right? You got this, right? But it's our job to evaluate that and purchase curriculum and that's really the topic here. >> I I just want to respond to that Lori in general. That is not that is a that is a legitimate topic for the board and the curriculum. I don't think it's a legitimate topic for this discussion because that's why I said at the beginning these uh curriculum course guides are current. This is this is what is happening. It's not um it's not it's not static. It can change and I'm sure will change over time regardless of what happens. So we have to be careful that we evaluate these for the the um thoroughess of them for um the presentation. Is it helpful to parents? Does it give them what

033they need to know? We may have questions for I know Dave's got some questions he's ready to ask about how did you come up with certain stuff you know and I think that's within the boundaries but if we want to dig deeper into witness and wisdom that's another discussion >> I I wanted to open that door because I was concerned with >> well I think that's why yeah um you know that's that's our job by by law we are not reviewers of curriculum we are of we are those the board that authorizes curriculum Right. And so we take that that job seriously. So I was pleased with that comment. I do believe that even a bad textbook can be made absolutely great with a great teacher. Um a wonderful textbook and and I use the

034word textbook because curriculum I think is everything that happens in school. But um a wonderful textbook can be mediocre in the hands of a not so great teacher. I still believe you're the key. I think teachers are the key to education. No offense. >> No offense. >> You walk into those classrooms and >> that's huge. >> Um so, um I did have a question for you. Uh when I when I looked up the um the witten wisdom course guide for this, I saw that there was a video um you know there's no place in here that says, you know, Colonel Marx, you know, was a bad guy and Stalin killed millions of people, right? And that was brought up last time by somebody. Um uh and I I saw there was there was a a

035video kind of giving this lukewarm Yeah. Yeah. This was all bad and Yeah. Um so so do you is that is that video part of your curriculum? I didn't see it in classroom but I was >> um the one the mini bio Joseph Sal. Yeah, that one we show a little that's later on in the book. Um once we start to see things go south in Animal Farm, we show that video of how things >> Okay. That's I think that's really the only other time that we do a lesson that focuses on the history. Yeah. Um but that lesson 26. So about 10 lessons later. >> Oh as we read through the book. So yeah that 16b is when we read the first chapter of the book and then as we grow throughout the book

036we show that video. So that one isn't >> that one we show in class. So it's not on our Google classroom or anything but it is something that's shown in whole. Well, I was just going to say this is the very definition of controversial subject. I mean, we get we get calls about that and a lot of the time um for example, we've met with the librarians and we established a liaison or leaison position and it's like Jane mentioned it's not a gotcha. We can tell our people who give three minutes of talking over the announcement. So if you're if we're comfortable with that signal okay sorry >> it's just it's to tell our team we are complaining about these things we got somebody in there who's so it's really you know trying to you

037know reinforce what we're doing. Uh Sam has a question. >> Go ahead, Sam. >> Yeah, I just wanted to echo what Julain said about the uh um about how the purpose of this discussion is to review the curriculum guides. And like I said last month, in that regard, I think these curriculum guides are fantastic. I think you guys have been doing a great job. they really are going to help uh parents and members of the community to understand what's happening uh in in the curriculum and understand kind of the the the progression of ideas. So I love that. Um but I also agree with Lori. I think that there is an important uh there's an importance to you know taking some time to discuss how this curriculum operates. witten wisdom. Um it to today this

038current board has not actually approved of any of the curriculum that we currently use and I think it's worthwhile for the board to at least review that especially if they find something that they're concerned about. >> And uh my uh and I'm I'm the person who brought some of this up last time. Um, I do want to um reiterate as I said last as as we discussed last time, this is the first time that students are encountering information about Marxism, the uh October Revolution, uh, any anything of that sort. This is their first exposure to it. And I don't believe that they really get into the history of the Russian Revolution until at least 9th grade, so 2 years after this. And even then, we haven't reviewed that material, so we're not sure. But what

039we do know is that this first impression again not from the teachers but from the curriculum is that Stalin was bad which is true. Stalin did a lot of horrible things. But the implication that it delivers through its uh through its historical text uh it its historical documentation texts and through the kind of overall thrust of the of the module or of the of the of the session or the the the section. is that while Stalin was not a not a great guy, Lenin and Marx had a lot of great ideas and so did Trosky. And it, like I said before, it really whitewashes the fact that Lenin advocated for murdering anyone who disagreed with him. Trosky was uh in that same camp and uh ultimately Marks and Engles were pushing the same ideas and

040that was my concern last time. And uh I think that we're seeing that more and more. you know, there's a there's an Animal Farm movie coming out and there's a lot of people who are frustrated about it for, you know, I I kind of a lot of these same reasons because they feel like it's not um really doing uh doing a proper service to to to viewers to show them the whole picture of what happened in Russia when the when the communists uh installed their revolution. So, all of that to say um really what I would be looking for is not to discuss at this time the uh the merits of the curriculum itself, but to set up a future meeting. And that's kind of what I was asking for uh last month was to

041set up as a future agenda item an actual examination of this curriculum and this section of the curriculum and uh and a discussion about it for at least the committee, if not the full board. >> Yeah, I think it appropriately starts with the curriculum committee. >> Thank you, Sam. So I think if the committee is okay with this understanding that we will visit in depth with wisdom as the current textbook series we're using at RMS. Can we take these course guides in as they are at this point and move them to the board meeting on the 27th for board approval? >> I think we should. >> Dave. >> Yeah. fine with me. Fine. Okay. So, >> so I just want to reiterate so I make sure I understand um move the RMS68 ELA guides to

042April uh full board and then at a future date have a more in-depth discussion about what Okay. And you and I can talk about the structure of that and what that >> Absolutely. >> Perfect. >> Thank you. >> We'd like to get it in before the end of June. Perfect. >> All right. I will reiterate what we heard before is that these two teachers would like to get back to the classroom. So, if it were okay, we'll have them head back to the middle school. I know there are lots of things happening there right now. And really, I do want to tell you we really appreciate you being here. I know I heard Thomas through the great mind putting words in your mouth that you had an absolutely fabulous uh visit. Enjoyed being able to

043talk to the students. I always love when we can get folks in the classrooms to see the great work that our teachers are doing because I do think that um it is impressive and we do appreciate everything they do every single day for the students in our buildings. So, thank you and thank you for your mouth. Good job. So then that brings us to the high school ELA. >> Yeah. So I will again introduce Pam. Pam is um one of our team leaders at the high school particularly for the ELA department. Um she has been a dedicated educator here in the district and uh I will just say that she will be greatly missed next year. She is retiring. Um we wish her the best. Um a quick overview of the ELA department. Um, kids

044need to take four credits of English before they graduate. Um, in ninth grade they sort of have two options, ELA 9 or honors ELA. In 10th grade, ELA 10 or honors ELA 10. In 11th grade, we add in an AP course, AP Lang and Comp. And please correct me if I'm wrong. >> So, students can choose between the AP course or ELA 11. And then by their senior year, we do have three options for students. ELA12. Um there's also world lit, which is uh considered a college preparatory course. Um so really any student that's heading um toward college, we really push them towards either world lit or and then the AP lit comp. I will also say um Pam is amazing and is the uh team leader and department chair there. Um she teaches the

045AP Blitton comp and so that is the curriculum that she's most familiar with. Obviously she worked with the teachers in her department uh to put together the course guides that you see before you um and is certainly able to take questions and if we have questions that she's not able to answer, I think that our best route is to um give her the opportunity to um meet with the teachers and get those answers for you as well. So, um, she is amazing, but she's not necessarily the key expert on every single one of these course guides. And so, I think every time we bring them, um, we we remind ourselves of the fact that we just typically have the team here as department chair. So, with that, I will turn it over to the board

046for any questions that you might have. >> Floor's open again. We thank you for all the work that has gone into this. It's a lot from Jason all the way across and all of you that do the hands-on. And I I I'm sure all of us did as well where we we do take seriously our preparation for these meetings and and it was a lot of reading and it was fun reading and it was fun to watch progression and see what we have there. So questions from board members many members just >> Oh go ahead. Go ahead. >> Well I was going to ask the same question you're gonna ask those elections. Is that what you were going to ask? probably later, but you can ask it now if I want. >> Yeah. And how

047would they select it? >> Well, I think it goes back to even when you were teaching dad. Um, it's based on the age and we're in the business. I always think about it as this is my view anyway that we're not teaching content necessarily. We're teaching kids how to learn, you know, how to think, but teaching them how to learn through a variety of manners. And in English, it's reading, writing, thinking, or listening. And you know, I always say to my seniors, Sir Francis Bacon once said that reading makes a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man. And that's kind of what English is. So, um, you know, you got to read a variety of texts so that you learn how to think and you learn how to make comparisons and

048you learn how to weigh. So, when you're thinking about picking, um, a text, you you look at the standards, you look at their age, and you learn what or you look at what you can gain from that particular text. So, let's say it's of mice and men, which is a staple when you were teaching, Dan. We we did that, too. Um it not only gives them you know historical perspective of the great depression um but it gives that um what you know humans have to deal with of making really tough critical choices in those situations and at a freshman level the readability it's a very short book so you take a lot of different things into account with that all the way up to AP English lit if you're asking them to you know read

049a classic like Mary Shel's Frankenstein time they all love the creature and then they can debate at the end. You know, they're all cheering for the creature and I said, "But he's a murderer, but they like him a lot better than the scientist Victor." So, it's age, it's appropriateness, and it's getting to them to think because the content doesn't really matter. And that's always in anything. And I liked your statement, Shane, about it being static because literature is always changing. You're always finding the things that appeal to students. So, there's a variet. not an easy answer of how you get to there and how you choose it. I think it's teaching kids to look with a critical lens and um in AP and AVID always has this kind of mantra we use is what does

050it say, what does it mean and why does it matter. So you're always looking at that. So whether it's in um educated sophomore year, The Great Gatsby, um even a little short story in um English nine or the crucible. It's, you know, what does the text say? You got to read the words, but then why does it matter to us as humans? Um you know, what does it say? What does it mean? What's going on in there? And then why does it matter to us as humans? because as humans we're all connected and books take us there. Um, you know, I I don't know. I had a teacher in high school who said that when we open a book, we're all immigrants to a new world. That's what we're doing. Whether we are going to

051in China's things fall apart, we're traveling to um, you know, Africa to see that culture or if it's in your own backyard and it's a little short story about growing up in Wisconsin, you know. So, it's complicated answer, complicated process, and I think it's always fluid. always changing based on the texts that come up. >> But we're basically teaching the same novels, same grade level as before. I mean, that's >> as before. >> Well, before was um I know that since you were there, English is still Romeo Juliet Menberg, but the the fourth um you know anchor text in English nine would be that they have choice. And then we do book circles with them. I would say English 10 is all different from when you were here. English 11 still has, you know, good

052old Gatsby. Um, kids love that book, too. And The Crucible >> and then a lot of new selections. And then I would say at the senior level, that's probably very different. I do have a com my mind. Anyway, here's my comment. Back up on um the books that you have in the reading circle the end part where you uh does this this goes along with the course the um the state standards, right? >> Okay. And do they have books that they recommend? I believe in the English section >> that the state recommends. >> Yeah. But in standards in the common core standards >> in No. No. >> Okay. I've seen that my thought some books that were recommended looking at common core. Um but my my question really is kind of what Dan said and

053you answered the question really well. Uh but how did you come up with those particular books to show what you wanted to show? So I can speak to myself particularly in English nine. So um you also it's kind of what Michelle said with me that you have to look at the particular group of kids you have that year too and what their needs are. So for example in English nine um in their book I personally don't leave it up to where they go pick their own book and then you've got 20 books going on. Some teachers like that I am I need to have a little bit more control. So, for example, one book that I have as an option is Orphan Train. Um, great book. Kids absolutely love it. Much higher level than um

054and that never fall down, which is um Orphan Train. It's a set during the Great Depression, too. And there's two story lines. One during the Great Depression, and then one currently. And then the other option I give is Never Fall Down, which is about the Cambodian genocide. Much easier readability levels. So I can have kids choose kind of on their readability and their interest level. And then I've also added in other ones Walter Dean Meyers Monster if I have very you know low readers. So I think I look at it for me personally I look at the year the students who are sitting in front of me because it's that last unit when you know them really well and then you look at does it fit the needs of can we pick apart um the

055novel and how an author creates meaning because you don't read just for a story because as a teacher you want to get them to look at syntax the sentence structure um the diction why did they choose the words that they use the literary devices the metaphors the simileies the symbols the things that kids don't see on their own. Um, you know, kids read a lot. I have a lot of seniors right now reading Colin Hoover's books. Throw away kind of, you know, there's nothing literary about that, but they're reading that. My job as a teacher is to open up worlds to them that they wouldn't normally go to and then pick apart those elements. For example, along with that, I often use artwork and I'll have them go into an art piece and say, "Aanalyze,

056you know, why is there a vase on that table? What does that mean?" Because then they're learning symbols and metaphors and then they can relate that to a novel as well. Now, what's the symbol in here? What's going on here? Why is that happening? Um, so that would be what I would say. It's not, again, it's not an easy thing. We're like, "These are the four books we're going to write." But let's do it kind of students and I do this and I have two friends who are going to do the same one. Um, and then I think after 35 years of teaching a master's degree in curriculum instruction and a million credits beyond that, I feel like I have some authority to know that that's an appropriate book. That's not this will meet my

057needs. That won't. No, I know that doesn't. Well, you're talking you're talking about okay their reading levels to some degree and then their age, school, what they will be interested in, those kind of things. Um, do you go for any I shouldn't say it this way because that's how I where I'm going. The books that are chosen often and those some of the books uh have controversy in them already and some of them are are rather dark >> and uh those those are chosen because that way they can do critical thinking on what would you do in that situation, >> put yourself in that situation and uh for reading. Um is there any balance to that on other books? It's interesting because one of the prompts in my um from one of the years on

058the AP exam, the students write three essays on a mandate and that last one is always on a a novel of their choice. And one of the prompts one year was choose a happy delightful scene from a novel of celebration and how that plays a pivotal role in the novel overall. And the kids are like there's not a lot of happy scenes in things. And Ernest Hemingway even said, you know, I I we need horror. that's what people want to write about and that's what they want to read about. So I agree with you that there's often very very dark literature and it's hard to counterbalance that with something lighter. Um >> what you're saying is there's not much out there. >> There isn't. >> No, I mean much of literature is I mean look

059at what sells because our average daily lives are pretty ordinary and boring and people think well that's not going to sell. Um so I think we as teachers do a job a good job in our department I believe of providing those conf or discussing those conflicts in the books and and it's exactly what you said and you know if you were in that character's ch shoes what would you do and why and why would the author choose to write about this and include that and is it necessary or appropriate all of those things. The other thing I was curious about is most of these books are not biographies obviously, right? Do you have any biographies that you like to do? >> Yeah. Well, in World Lit, um, she does a a memoir unit and in

060English 10 that's become very popular with kids and that's when they do those lit circles, they choose their own with guidance of giving them that. >> Okay. But they have biographies there. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Those are very popular with kids. >> Good. Yeah. I like to read biographies. >> Um, my last question is the creative writing course that you have. How populated is it? I'm not saying it's the course we want to get rid of or anything. I think that's a really good course to have, but how populated is that course because it's an elective. >> Yes, it but it hasn't it was cut last year due to staffing >> because we cut we lost a teacher last year and then so that was cut. Um, and it probably will not run again this

061year for the same reason. >> Oh, so it has been cut. So, and created writing has been, you know, popular always run a section. Dan and I both taught it for years. It's becoming very, very complicated right now with AI. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. >> Um, I taught it again the last year and it was it was a battle I was having. Yeah. Because they can I mean read a poem about this and >> seconds. You all understand that and hear what she's saying. I understand that too. Yes. >> It's a real problem at the college level. Yeah. >> So, okay. Thank you. >> Oh, you have a question? Um, so in these course guides, uh, and you like the music teacher said, can you switch up the >> Oh, you can. >> Yeah.

062And that's why I thought Julian's comments about it not being static was very important because we're always changing it. I started teaching um in AP lit the nickel boys at Coulson Whitehead maybe four or five years ago. Um same thing in my um when you ask where we get the topics in my AP group that I'm in. Somebody put out there like this works really really well. It's got killer surprise ending for the kids when they get the book they can't believe it. Um great characters and the characters work really well on that AP exam for what we're doing. But that came up in the last few years because it was not only new and popular, very readable, the kids love it. Um, so yeah, we're always changing, always changing with what we find like,

063you know, this isn't working well anymore. Um, years ago I taught uh Tale of Two Cities by Dickens. Long boring exposition, but once you get to that, you know, great plotline really well, like kids love the story. It doesn't work well for my AP exam because the AP exam was character heavy and that's a plotheavy book. So I abandoned it. I mean I loved it but it was smart for me to get rid of it and move to character heavy books which all my books now are character heavy. So it's always changing stories that I taught years ago. If I said some of them from English 9, Dan, you would remember like but they become P. They're like >> the mother of Manville. I know >> Dan, you love the mother, you know, but they're

064like it's the tunnel, the lie that we're well the lie. But kids, our kids are different today. I've been teaching for 35 years and they're different. We have to evolve with that. So, it's always changing. I think we're always we read read read and then we'll come to school and be like, "Oh my god, the greatest short story we need to use now." >> Yeah. They used to answer part of my question that I still had and that was I didn't see Dickens out there much at all. >> Well, Steph Gilbert does um Great Expectations with Honors N. >> He's my neighbor. >> She's hauling them. Yes, she's hauling them through there, but again, once you get through that exposition Oh, they love it at the end. But right now, they're slogging through it. >>

065Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. that you you kind of answer that question because that was he's my favorite author. >> I love Dickens. Y >> but what what you're saying is that kids today don't relate to that much anymore. >> It's not that they don't relate to it. They're not they're um they don't have the fortitude and the dedication to to get through a text. It's very difficult to get kids to read. They're not reading and and that's why we we have to keep working on that. And their vocabulary is not what it used to be. um because they don't read. So they're con we have to expose them to complex text to raise that. >> Good point. Good point. I don't know. I see them reading on their phones all the time. >> I'm pretty

066sure they're probably doing that. >> I think you're right. >> And this would be interesting. This is just a comment. I taught sixth grade for six years and I had readings time for them and I had a very precocious child in my class. I mean really precocious precocious because he just it made his day if I made a mistake you know. >> So when it was time to pick a book in the he he put um war in peace. He picked war in peace. Sixth grader >> and he was going to read that. >> Oh yeah. >> And he got through 60 pages and he came to me I don't understand this. I thought, "Haha, you're not what you thought you were." >> But for somebody to pick one piece like that, amazing. But yeah,

067that really the vocabulary really >> vocabulary is even on my AP exam. And when you don't have that complex vocabulary, you can't you make your way through a text. >> So how do we change that? >> You got to read. I tell the kids, read anything. Even Colleen Hoover, read read anything to to gain. And it's not just vocab. It's sentence structure which then comes over into their right. You know, you have to see I'm we're doing to kill Mockingberg right now. And I love freshman. I I've taught freshman for 35 years. I love love love my seniors. The freshman have this great energy. When I came into the room the other day, they said, "Are you going to read with the voices again?" You know, and they many of them do not grow up

068with books in the home. Do not have anybody read to them. And you know, I said, "Yeah, I'll read aloud, but you have to follow along. they need to see the words and they need to see syntax um and that that is faltering and and I applaud the changes over time with you know they have access to audio books so I'm like if you're struggling you can listen to it but you have to have that book open and I think that is something that we have to push that that they just and develop the strategies to keep going through a text even when it's difficult question Um uh from an um do you ever do you ever um incorporate uh books from academic historians like Doris Kron Goodwin or Cola? I I found those fascinating

069and I I discovered those long after I left school. Um and it's positive. You know, I'm I'm careful for my mental health to balance positive with a negative book like Animal Farm. I was like, "H sliding through that was like mentally difficult, right?" Because because of the just the negativity and I found most of those um historical books, while there's ups and downs, they're all overall positive and and uplifting. >> I'm not familiar with those, so no, I don't use it. But I personally think that in any negative, there's positive. And that's that's why I love literature. Whether it's, you know, Brave New World or Things Fall Apart or any of those that have very heavy darkness, there's beautiful light within that. And that's we as humans have to talk about that. Like, you know,

070animal farm, what what is the brightness of what is we as humans, what do we have to do to counter that. So, yeah, I'm not familiar with that. And you know, I >> you'll love Squidward. I'm I June 6, but you'll have time to read them. >> Sure. Her husband knows. >> Yeah, that's a good point, though, Lori. >> Uh those are I shouldn't say they're hard to get through, but they're bigger books. Trying to read those. But that's what I meant by biographies. Sometimes >> there are a lot of really good biographies out there written by good historians. And there is a crossover here between history. Um, and then you you can you can have have the good with the bad in those because all biographies are not all pretty as well. >> And

071biographies would be taught in like AP lane because AP Live is all fiction. So there's that, you know, we have that curriculum, too. Um, so yeah, that's why I'm personally not familiar with some of those, you know, biographies because it's just not what I teach. But but that's a good point. >> Okay. So, um I dare say that you and I could have hours of discussion on this. >> I'm sure the committee has noted I withhold my comments to this point. >> I >> Oh, you have go ahead. >> Yeah. I remember hearing that um it's important for kids who are want to be motivated reading to own their own book. I don't know if you've heard that. >> Yeah. Okay. I'm wondering how the district can come alongside and make sure that every kid

072in the district owns at least one book. So, I'm just proposing idea how we can do that and get a few weeks left for pay, >> you know, come up with an idea that we can. And the last thing I wanted to say was uh every time I end up going to a brick and mortar store and I see a student age kid, I ask who's your favorite teacher, that name comes off most often. So >> thank >> and they say Pam, they they are clear to say Pam Suski. They don't say Susi Pam seems to be not the other one. >> That's different. That's right. When high school does that, you know that they're respected. Sam. Okay, I'll Sam. Go ahead. >> Yeah. No, I just wanted to say uh that's a great idea,

073Dan. I think that's a really useful uh I think that's a really useful tool for increasing affection for reading. As Pam knows, I'm a big fan of literature. Uh to took as many literary classes as I could when I was in high school. Um, I was uh wondering if you'd want to connect with uh Jason and Jenny to have that put on the next ad services meeting. >> Oh, the book the book idea everybody in his or her >> own that discussion. >> Yeah. No, you and I had that discussion too. >> Good. >> So, um I have just a couple questions for you. Do you believe literature ought to be aspirational? >> What do you mean exactly? >> That it causes the reader to say I want to be like that or I don't

074want to be like that. >> I don't nec I wouldn't necessarily say that. I would say literature should make you think. >> And literature should make you think how can I connect or not connect? What what how do I relate to this? I wouldn't think it would be necessarily aspirational. >> Okay, >> that would be my view, but that's just my view. >> Sure. No. Um, so let's let's just briefly explore. Do you believe there's anything in those guides? And I know I mean I'm sure you've looked at them all even though you didn't personally write them. Was there anything in there that you would have um exercised and email out to parents for controversial issues? >> We all have all year. >> Okay. >> For all nipple boys. I did I did for all

075my units except for Frankenstein because Frankenstein is >> so like we're the croad scene. >> Yes, they've done it with everything. So, we haven't had any parents uh through any of that. But I I truly believe that first off just having a published curriculum I think is a great idea and we've never had it my whole career here and that's you know I think it's a great idea to put that out there for families. I think the controversial you know sending a message there's no harm no foul in that. I think it's just informing parents of, you know, what's going on in the classroom. Um, so yeah, I think there's controversy in everything in everything that you can read in school potentially. You know, whether um Leanne thinks something's controversial and I don't. So that's

076why I think it's it's a blanket thing. You send it and you see, you know, what happens with that. >> I do think and you and I have had this conversation. We have worked with families in the past certainly um if there were concerns. I think the the controversial issue policy is a new was new to us this year and we are uh always looking to improve and I think that we've had some conversations and I know Jason has been wonderful at the high school because when teachers send those out now they're sharing them with Jason ahead of time so he knows they're going out. I think having, as Pam said, the published curriculum is incredibly helpful. So families can at any point go see what's going on or happening. I also think there's some

077work to be done, too, as we always continuously improve on working in departments and having department conversations about what areas do we feel need to be we need to be making sure we're setting up controversial issues. And I think the Polish curriculum kind of helps us start that process. And I envision in the future and Jason and I have talked about that too like where departments are sitting down together like reviewing what we have and saying okay as a department so it doesn't fall on an individual teacher because to Pam's point what might she might think is controversial the person next door might not. And so having that more as a department um I really do feel like that would be a smart step and Jason and I have certainly talked about that and Pam

078and I have talked about that a little bit too. So it's not just about what one individual teacher is making the decision in the classroom, but more a department decision and then again always running those past the building principal before those are being sent home so that he's aware if someone is opting out so that he can work with that. And again I always feel like it's the start of the conversation with the family if there is something. >> Sure. >> Um so I do think that we've come a long way but we're always looking to see how we can improve. And to that point, we always prior to that with those choice units, even before this controversial um topic um policy >> policy change, we always send home notification to parents of are you

079okay with the book your child showed? >> Sure. >> So, so that's always been in place, but I agree that like we if Leanne and I were in both teaching English 9, we need to get together and go which units are we sending this? So, that's collective and not separate. And that is evolving and changing. Well, and I appreciate and I think that's one of the values of these guides. >> Parents, you know, um in an ideal world, every parents jumping on air and saying, "Okay, I agree with all this. I'm I'm great with the selection, whatever, and making choices or at least having conversations with their with their sons and daughters about, you know, they're reading, which I think is incredibly important." Um, and so I think putting this kind of information out there

080is is very, very important and timely. So, um there are many many other things that I would love to talk with you about at some point, but um I made a list. Maybe we'll do that before. >> Absolutely. >> I will always talk about books and stories involved. >> Yeah. Well, I I'm gonna name one author for you because this idea of an AP question that our students said >> and it was from 20 years ago. Well, but but I don't think that question is out of line at all. >> And then I bring it up with them every year because I want they all say the same thing too. They're like, "Oh, what's a happy scene?" So then Gatsby provides it. Frankenstein, you can do it with the wedding and then I show them

081how you take one scene and then you go back and explain that. So I agree with you. It's pretty dark. >> Yep. And um there there's a a relatively new author. His name is Charles Martin. written a whole bunch of books um and a lot of darkness in them but also a lot of positive and um you you seem to to I don't dare to go there because you and I could talk about that forever. So, um, but anyway, um, any more questions relative to the guides for, um, high school ELA? Are we are we okay? Dave, do you have your hand up? Is that you're not sure? It's it's part um I don't believe that what people read, especially children, high schoolers, too. uh what they read can help form their world view. >>

082Absolutely. >> And who they are or what's important in the world and uh that comes a lot through reading or today's world watching so forth. Uh do you see that as really important for them? >> Absolutely. Um, so that's why you have to talk about, you know, why do you think the author wrote this and why do you think the author included like when you talk about, you know, the darkness or the light or all those things? Um, because it can make them start to think about something beyond themselves. You know, they're at the most egocentric stage of their life and they should be. It's when you, you know, you shouldn't have to worry about other things, but also that they do need to look beyond themselves at another world, another culture, another um somebody

083who's going through something that they haven't encountered. You know, I I grew up on a farm in southwestern Wisconsin, little tiny town, and went to St. Mary's Catholic grade school for eight years. The library was the size of a bathroom. Um I'll never I loved reading. I loved reading as a kid, but when we'd go in there, she'd say, "All of you girls can read Nancy Drew and all the boys can read the Hardy Boys." Well, once I got through Nancy, I was on and sister Clarita let me read them. But there wasn't a lot of option for me at that library. And we didn't have a library in my little town. But the to show you how the poverty hit in my area, the bookmobile came every two weeks. And mom took us there

084and she she hadn't let me read anything. And I was in sixth grade and I read Roots by Alex Haley because it was the biggest book there was. But it took me to a whole new world that I didn't know about. I didn't know about the middle passage. I didn't know about any of that. And I was horrified, but there was also beauty in that book, too. And I agree that it it it takes kids to another level when we, you know, >> that's why we're looking for balance. >> That's why we're looking for quality literature because the vocabulary, you know, Every once in a while I'll pull something on my Kindle or something and get started on and think what a glorious waste of my time. >> I know >> the language is bad,

085the syntax is bad, the the it's just horrible and um you know I dig but I have the background to discern what it I think hope that I can discern what is quality literature and I have very high standards for that personally for me. But that's why it's so important that when we put a book in front of a of a young person, uh I I would submit to you from kindergarten on that it be quality literature and so that we build a vocabulary that is more than a four-letter word and and that they are able to actually use the English language with all of its dynamism >> express themselves or their own language. Yeah. You know, I mean, I realize we have multiple, you know, >> No, I mean, in their own writing transfers,

086>> for sure. Because the goal of good writing is not get the goal of grammar is not to take a sentence apart. It's put it back together better or at least as good as it was at the beginning. So, but they have to see that. And that's why um I'm done. >> Wayne, could you be more excited about this? Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. I I just know the role of literature in my life and it had very positive influence in many ways, but it had some very dark moments that I regret that I regret to this day. And um because my folks gave me incredible opportunities to read and um I read way more than they could keep up with. And so I made some bad choices in there and it it didn't help me.

087And uh so I want to make sure that in our school setting that as much as possible we are giving them really quality literature that will give them some aspiration to make them a better person to think better to be able to make wiser choices to to um to be better thinker writers you know readers. >> That's what you mean by aspiration. I thought you meant to aspire to be that. No, no, no, no. Aspiration. Personal aspiration to to to say >> I don't want to ever do that. Or man, that's what I want to be. >> That character embodies the qualities that I think make a good person, >> you know, or um the fact that they like the creature. I know, >> but that makes for great discussion because then when they're cheering

088for the creature and then you go you remind them that he's a murderer, then they go, "Oh, wait a second." Well, and you get this glorious opportunity to say that's the power of language. Yes. Because they can make you emotionally attached to something that you know everybody sees that in movies and plays and everything. They they emotionally attach you to the wrong in my opinion the wrong person >> and until it unless you have this wake up moment that >> and that's the best part of the discussion. >> You need an English teacher. I I miss the classroom so much. >> Now I know what you mean by aspirational. That is what I I do and we all do, but I I'm a center. >> So So that's my lack of define the word. So

089I just have to say I cannot wait to to cover the K through four K through five literature. That's that's where my heart is at. That's where my passion is with quality literature because if you got if you cut your teeth on quality literature at that age, you're going to choose quality literature throughout your life. >> So, you'll at least know bad literature when you read it and you'll be able to say this is terrible. Yeah. >> I read a quote the other day. I don't know the percentage, but people who read recreationally are far more successful in life than people who do not. So, we need to agree with them >> and and I think that comes to to today's Dave's point. um biographies are incredibly important in building into young people um their

090reading selections because they need to understand if you want to get into a different life into a different period of time or a different place man a biography and and at the end and I read them and I go I know the end of this story and I hate it but I can't but I still want to know what happened between you know so um so we're all fans of biographies We got to let Jenny's got to go. We have to go preview this which is an interesting followup. But are we good with saying that these can go as they are? Dan, Dave, Lori. >> Yes. >> Okay. Awesome. Got it. >> And I am sorry that I do have to dismiss myself. I'm gonna hand it over to Jason uh to lead the discussion

091or support the discussion with our class curriculum. Ashley is going to uh work on the piece with student growth and development advisor. and I will watch the rest of this video after the fact. Hand me your Yep. You can go back. >> Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Congratulations on your upcoming retirement. >> And then I will catch up with that going after. I'm sorry I'm disappearing. Um I have made a list of >> really I think >> there's certainly one And how many English and I are both gone and we're not sure on Danny's project. Um he is new this year and he taught in South Korea for the last seven nine years. Um and so he he had come back because his gal potentially >> that might mean three people >>

092maybe. >> Um I just talked to him the other day and he was still kind of going back and forth. Um, but yeah, staff is mentioned to me for the last three years. She probably did. >> That's a lot of years of experience. >> Yeah, >> it is. Yeah. >> And 35. It's a good life. Books are on a little bit longer. >> Look at all Look at all the time. You're gonna have to do more reading. >> I know. Well, I'm getting another job, too. >> What are you gonna do? >> Um, I'm >> Can you talk about it? I I'm I think I'm going to take a part-time job as an administrative assistant at a law office. >> I'll use my brain in a new way, but I don't sit still very well,

093so I'm not sure. >> Yeah. No. Great. >> I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, but thank you all for everything. >> Have a good rest of the day. >> You too. >> Laura will be right back. >> I got to start bringing water to these meetings. You talk I have my father used to say would you please be careful whatever you get into because whatever you get involved with you discover that's why I was really happy that you volunteered to do the grilling for that >> I did not volunteer to do the grilling >> it's in the minutes >> you know I'm the I'm a I'm a firm believer in the person who has the idea should do the execution. >> Yeah, I agree with that too. Usually, >> yeah, not in this instance.

094Sorry. >> I'll tell you who was a good griller and that's Jason Whitaker. >> That's grilling for that event when we had >> wasn't in here but somewhere around here. >> That was good. You did a good job of hamburger heard about >> we could have talked about literature stuff forever. >> It's because literature touches on everything. But I do like the idea of giving them something that's a lot lighter so they want to read. >> That was kind of the theme that Yeah. Julie and I wanted to get across. >> One of my sons was a non-reader until he discovered fantasy. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. And then he just took off and read, you know, the series and whatever and then he became a reader. >> And see, my brother was a non-reader until

095they discovered children auto. >> Oh, you mentioned that. Yeah. And he was so interested in engines and all of that that he read every children. >> Yeah. >> But getting to sit down and just read a book was ridiculous. >> I have read I haven't read. >> Yeah. Um so I think we have the committee back together and um so the next item on our agenda is um classical curriculum discussion. I asked Dan to lead this discussion. Just to set the stage, we were emailed. I think Cheryl or you Ashley or Jenny or somebody earlier sent us a list of of uh things to read. I did read them. Um and so, but I did ask Dan because this is one of his passions to lead this discussion on behalf of our committee. So, >>

096well, obviously after reading those, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's invented been invented for a while. Um, the question I think we have to ask is, uh, well, let me preface that by saying we could plug in to the curriculum offered by Illsdale pretty easily, but it would take um, it would take some effort to do that and that's it's I saw it as a wholesale change. I don't know what you people looked at that uh in the same way but is it worth the effort I think is a question we have to ask and um what are we losing when we do that because it certainly would be a different curriculum than we looked at today. >> Oh yeah. >> So what context I I do not have an email from you

097about this. >> It wasn't from Dan. It was from I think it was from Jenny. I can give you the >> I don't have an email from anybody about this. I just did a global search. >> Um, so, so what context are you are you looking at that this >> she you're included? Look, look, look at one from Jenny on April 2nd. It was entitled March Curriculum Committee followup. Oh, no, no, that's not the right one. Sorry, wrong one. Wrong one. Don't look at that one. >> Okay. >> But I know um >> All right. Well, if you could just just kind of quickly summarize like what's the context here? Where where are you looking to apply apply it? >> It's really easy to find it. You just Google classical curriculum, right? >> And one

098of the selections was from someone who's teaching it. I I'm familiar with the Hillsdale and and the format and I actually know a teacher who's teaching it at another school, >> but um as it applies to us, what were your thoughts? Like what >> Well, no, this was the we're initiating the discussion about >> if you remember in Cincinnati, we heard that professor from John's Hopkins, >> right? >> Okay. So we came back kind of excited about the possibility and um for years we've had the discussion in the department about classical education and you can plug in some of it by just reading you know the great you know books, great writings and whatever uh into what you already have. But these selections that we read were more more about the wholesale changing going to

099classical curriculum. And when you look at the the structure of it, it's it's like we don't have as many selections. This is it. This is what you would would read. And I think the uh it simplifies things, but it's more rigorous than probably what we're doing now. And uh you know, some of those uh classics are harder to read because the sentence structure is different than what the kids are used to. >> And you know, we we would have to make a lot of changes in order to do it. and and it so so that brings me to you know our kids are not prepared to read quality literature during K through five. So that brings me to the question of are you looking at applying this at the lower grades. So time out here

100let's clarify what we're actually talking about because a classical curriculum really is more than just literature. It is it is a way of teaching. We don't have teachers here who are trained in this and it's a special training that has to happen. Um, you know, you have the trivia, you have the I forget there's three there's three areas and you know I'm not an expert in it but I've looked at it for years but but it's it's very intentional starting from the lower grades working through the high school and if you just try to I think if you just try to take pieces and plug it in different places I think you might have a problem. Gotcha. Um that's that was that was what I was getting at. >> And and look, following up on

101the discussion we just had on literature, I do think that um you can choose literature that would be considered classical literature and really put it into an existing program. I don't think that's hard except I agree with Lori and you I think we all agree the the the classical literature is extremely hard for most students today because they cannot they are not equipped >> right >> to deal with sentence structure length >> just just going even depth of depth of >> thought and there >> and how many characters show up in books you know so so I I think we have to clarify what we're talking about. So, so Dan, I'm not sure. Are you talking about trying to find a way to change over a part of our program to a more classical approach

102or are you talking about really going to a classical curriculum which is a major huge step for a school district? >> Yes. Okay. >> Okay. I'm just starting the discussion because you know uh we had very little time in the van trip back to discuss those kinds of questions. So we're looking at would this work for us and if we went wholesale and started from K through five and did all that. Well, then we've got 11 years, you know, or 12 years of kids who haven't started there >> and never started there. >> Yes. >> So, I have a question on that. >> So, this this question is for Jul. Uh, so can you can you start can you dip your toe in the water in kindergarten, first grade and see and see how that

103goes. You can always go back backwards, right? But it's it's a matter of starting in the middle where you get yourself in trouble. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Two things. First, I want to talk about common core. um when they put that in place and I went to a lot of schools where the teachers in the public school did not like common core. So can you explain to the rest of us who are not educators what common core is? >> Common core standards came out. Oh >> early 2000 something like >> I remember that >> the buzz word but >> and uh this was backed by President Obama and it was backed by the Microsoft guy what's his name? Bill Gates. >> Bill Gates. He put a lot of money into that and if states

104would adopt the alma core standards for their standards for their state, he would give each state like $11 million. >> Okay. >> And uh Wisconsin did not buy into that right away, but they they eventually did. They started out with English and math usually, and that's where it stayed for quite a while having common core standards. Common core standards are called common core standards because everyone in the whole state is supposed to use those same standards. That's why we talk about the standards all the time in here and the standards have actually grown to be more than math and in English science is next generation science and uh they've gone pretty much most of them are are common core standards that we're use they using here. Okay. The reason I bring that up is two

105reasons. When when that was being done and I was talking to teachers that I had student teacher with, they did not want to see that come in came in because of two reasons. First of all, it was another change on top of a change. Secondly, it was laid down on every grade level all at once. They didn't start at the kindergarten and work their way up, right? And so you were starting I had a math teacher tell me now what we teach in eighth grade we're going to be teaching in seventh grade. And so students as you go up are not really ready for the next step. Like you said they they were kind of out of step because they they was supposed to be harder. So what did they do with common standards? You

106got the standards out there. What do they do in the classroom? They actually water it down so it fits what the students can still do. >> The only thing they could do. Plus there's I'm giving you more than you will probably know. Uh plus there is within that system there's a 10% where you can change what the standards are or you can do something different. For example, Bismar, Illinois, that that's a small district but it was a good district and the common core standards for elementary students and lower elementary had nothing to do with money for some reason. So they kept that in or they kept in what had to do with some financial things that they did not put in within their 10% discretion >> within their 10% discretion. So that's the common core

107standards. And the reason I bring that up is because if you do what Dan's talking about and you take um the classical education, you try to put that into the whole system, this would be even harder than common core. I'm going to give you my opinion what I what I saw. I've observed a student teacher in a Christian classical school and it's it's a classical education school. just like what you told us about >> and what you sent out and uh I observed there and uh then you it is kind of simplified in a way but it really goes in very strongly to high academics who should say here's something I noticed and I noticed that in all the schools we sent out I looked at all the you know Hillsdale and all the other

108places the other schools that they had the dress codes that had everything right and I thought that will not fly that that will And uh I also saw when I was building a student teacher, I noticed in things I looked at these are somewhat elite schools financially. Meaning I was at that Christian school and I was watching the students, the parents come in to pick up the students. They all had nice big SUVs and they had money. And uh the Hillsdale school and the other schools that you guys look at, there's big money behind that. So to make things happen in a big way with classical education, I don't think it's going to fit Watertown very well. >> You're saying it needs a lot of money. >> It needs a lot of money and it

109needs it also needs a buy in that I don't think we're going to get >> from the teachers and the community in general. Is that what you're getting? >> This is the community community in general. What I've been hearing is >> I'll be real but what I've been hearing is is is they're all in for classical education. Uh but I'll let Sam >> I'm not sure they understand what it is. >> Yeah. I I think very much they don't just Sam we'll get to you in just a second. I don't think they really truly understand it. Yeah, the the trivia is the grammar, the logic and the rhetoric which is the grammar is lowest and then then the logic builds in 68 and then you get up to the rhetoric which is putting it's the

110synthesis of everything from from the grammar and the and the logic. This takes highly um this takes people who have been trained in it and takes people who buy into it. Um, do I think we can do better with selections of of classical pieces, whether it's from from great music, great art, great writing, um, great thinking and the philosophy classes and things like that. Yes, I I definitely do. I I I disagree with David. I don't think it takes money, but I think it takes huge buy in from the people who are doing because what this is is fundamentally rechanging the entire program on the district. >> So Sam, go ahead. >> Yeah, thanks. I I think the comments that you guys have been making are really great. I think they're really sharp. Um very

111good observations and I think it is absolutely important to delineate between uh the the popular conception of classical curriculum and the technical definition of it which is what you guys are talking about. I think that is important because if you uh if you start throwing out the uh the the the by by throwing out I mean if you start laying on the table this whole new approach to building ideas, building thoughts that is a huge shift. I agree with Julian. I think that that's a little bit outside of the scope of what the district can do at this time and uh that the time it would take to implement it also would be uh almost prohibitive. I believe at at this point at least. Um I think that the best place for us to start

112is really to define what what the the public is thinking when they think of classical curriculum, right? Uh and I've been talking to people about this for years. I've been having people ask about it and the big three things for me are that that I hear are that people want one better literature choices like we've already talked about. They want literature to be chosen on the basis of what explores important ideas in America not chosen on the basis of uh philosophical fads or on the basis of the nebulous idea of relevancy because trendiness is never a good standard for literature. good literature is that which stands the test of time. Um and then uh the the the second piece is people are frustrated with common core in a lot of ways and I think that's

113partly because teaching common core uh it can be difficult and you really do need a unified group in order to teach it appropriately. But even then I think that a lot of people view common core as having a number of elements in in their approach to literacy and mathematics that's detrimental to uh long-term proficiency in those areas. And I think that's kind of what we've seen and why we're moving away from the uh whole language model and towards a uh a classic approach to phonics and literacy. And uh the the third element that I see people wanting from classical curriculum is a a streamlining, right? A streamlining in order to increase rigor. Like Noah Webster said, uh, with students, students are going to rise to whatever challenge that you give them or going to fall

114to whatever breaks that you give them. I'm I'm paraphrasing them a little bit, but the idea is the goal with students is not to give them something they can handle. The goal is actually to challenge them uh with with very very steep challenges because that's what children crave a as as developing students. Uh we've talked about this with advanced students and how it's actually dangerous to under uh um to to underchallenge an advanced student, but that's really true with all kids. So, but that being said, I agree with David and and Julain. Generating buyin um and making sure that, you know, we're moving in a direction that people want is important. I don't know that we need to completely retool the the whole of the philosophy of learning and education, but I think increasing rigor,

115making sure that our literature choices are good and uh moving towards a more conventional approach might be a better way of putting it. That is going to be the key to fulfilling the popular conception of classical education. >> Yeah, that's good, Sam. I kind of agree with the same way. I think we can do some things without deducting the whole thing. >> And uh yeah, Sam Bob Logan used a good term last night in talking about how he challenges kids the crucible of failure. >> That's right. >> You know, and and that's a good point. Uh I I want to share uh my personal experience with Common Core. I was already retired and subbing and I subbed in a class um an English classroom that uh a colleague that I had worked within the department

116and I said how's it going? How do you like this? And she was really frustrated. She said because um she was teaching foreshadowing which is one of the easiest things to teach. Here it is in the beginning. Look at the end. That's for shadowing. And it took her whole class period because she was supposed to elicit a response from the kids. They were supposed to come up with and um either they didn't care or whatever. But it took her a whole class period and really um if you just come out and show them you got that lesson done in five minutes or >> say it say it in their terms. >> Yeah. >> Academic language has changed over the last 20 years particularly quite a bit. And so the academic language means that you're using

117that with the child, but does the child first has to be taught that academic language. And sometimes you just you're doing the same thing that they did 50 years ago, but you just put different name on it and you explain it with different words. >> Yeah. >> And and that makes a difference. Um here's here's what I saw about classical education that I think is is good. I did not take Latin in school. My wife took four years of Latin in high school and so therefore the romance languages she can pick up on much easier. She took a couple semesters of Spanish at the university and uh but Latin is so helpful in all the other languages especially the languages of our western hemisphere and so forth and uh that went away that went away

118even way way back and you weren't required to take that language to take and it's not I don't see that in our curriculum here much at all either I mean there there are schools that they offer Latin they offer German of course you have to have teachers for these which is difficult. Spanish is a big thing now. Uh >> Chinese, >> I my granddaughter, my oldest granddaughter, she's a real student uh all by herself. She took at her college she went to, she took Chinese and and uh English. She's an English major, too. Now, she's a psychology. But at any rate, the things that people would use when they get out there in languages are not really being addressed here particularly. That's not uncommon for a school in this part of the state. I think

119if you went to different parts of the state, you would see uh schools in certain areas that offer different languages. >> And uh there's Jason before Jason before Jason since I just want to remind everybody when common core was being discussed in the state legislature and even to this day there is no mandate that every district in the state adopt common core. what the mandate is, every district must have curriculum um um standards in place. You can develop them your own, but no district, well, there were a couple districts that tried I think over like Germantown or Monogy Falls or some place over there. Um they developed their own as I recall, but please understand it was every school board made the decision to adopt that or to create their own. And so I just

120want to make sure everybody understand >> that's a good point. That's a good point. That's true. >> If you go into Jenny's office, I wrote on the whiteboard a couple sentences. One of them says, "There's no crying in baseball." >> I think above and below it says, "We can do anything, but we can't do everything." Right? So, when I hear this conversation, that's the first thing I think of. I think it's valuable conversations, especially when we think about increasing rigor, right? That that excites me, right? Increasing rigor. Uh, the other things that I wrote down here as I'm listening is I wonder where the classical curriculum idea could show up in like our district of the future conversations. will bring people together and we can at least get their input from from >> I also

121know that our strategic plan will be suns setting uh tw 2027 whenever that means right it could mean as early as January or June but we we have an opportunity to to bring another group of stakeholders together to think about what our strategic plan uh looks like and how it provides a north star for the future of our district. So those are just things on the horizon. >> And then the last thing I got wrong again is if the classical curriculum is something we want to further explore and discuss, I think it'd be valuable for u the curriculum committee, some committee, the board, a group of folks to define what that means for us. Right? when when I was a high school principal, that was when um RTI was coming out and we had uh

122positive behavior. We took time as a group to say this is what it means to us and so we could communicate that and any decisions we made relative to that was based on our working definition. uh because I think there's value in communicating that educating folks but also like I think of like a crosswalk of the things that we do and how it may already align with that definition and we can also identify gaps right is there a gap in the rigor of our literature at third grade made it up right but if there is well then we'll attack that gap right so those >> no Jason I think that's an excellent point it's excellent >> I We need to um we need that committee discussion about what does classical curriculum mean to us. >>

123I think that's the essence of what we've been saying. >> So we need to maybe that becomes a I don't know if we want to make it a subcommittee thing or we want to and other people that might be interested. I just want to make sure she gets recorded. So, so it's my understanding classical one the a central tenant of classical education is that it's teacher led as opposed to studentled >> right >> very teacherentric right um and and so you know students are getting more from the teacher not being taught by their peers so so that's correct oh yeah the classical curriculum is very teacherentric yeah very in some ways it's a throwback And uh but back to the classes >> but but is it in always or is there something new? >> No,

124it's it's look it when it's done it it's teacher centric but there also is discussion but it is not group heavy. It is not peer peer-to-peer heavy. Um and there's >> it's very teacherdirected >> and there's some value in that especially as you go up the grades for for peers and so forth and peer discussion but uh yeah that's why it's called classical because it goes back to the old way of teaching >> well it's it's very arises and socratic and methodic meth method of question and answering dactic especially at the lower grades and then as you move up through the grades it becomes truly the synthesis of all that you've done in those earlier grades. As you start working, you're reading heavier material, you're you're you're digesting it, you're writing, you're doing analysis. It's

125it is very rigorous and um yeah, >> it came it came somewhat out of the Renaissance to some degree and it it also is pretty humanistic in ways. >> It can be. >> Yeah, it can be. It can be if you're not careful. >> Yeah. It's it's it basically is is about reading, studying, learning and thinking um hearing um creating in a way that is at least in theory the best of humanity, >> the best that we have, the best thoughts we've ever had, the best music we've ever created, you know, the best art, the best literature. >> So they're focusing on classical music >> generally. Yeah. the classical music together focusing on the languages, right? >> Yep. So, any other discussion on this? I do think we need to put together a committee whether

126it's this committee which I think this one could do it. Um but to to say, okay, what does it mean for us? What elements of it? I think we need to definitely add to the district the future. Does this sound good to you, Mr. Bulmer? >> It does. I I think we've subcommittee right here. I think we've almost come to the decision that it's a really big undertaking >> and and I think we uh we don't have to go further with deciding whether we should do the wholesale change, >> but we need to decide what elements of it might we be interested in. >> That's exactly right. >> Exactly. And there's a there's a very definite historical part to this American history part. >> Yeah. >> Huge. Well, and you know, do we teach enough

127logic? You know, do we get to that point? You know, we're talking about future ready and that do our kids go out there knowing that they're going to think how can we develop that in our students? So, maybe we can borrow some things and Jason thoughts really good about how we define this. Yeah. When I looked at it, you Hillsdale is known for their historical things and that fits them perfectly. We don't want to just we don't want to just throw something on people that's going to be a big failure that they'll never even think of again, you know, when there's good parts of this we can use. >> Well, there are a couple classical schools in our area. >> Yeah. We're having students there. There's a waiting list there. A friend of mine teaches

128>> but but in part that's because not every parent understands what they're getting when they get into those situations. It does usually involve a uniform. It does involve a very very rigorous academic approach. It's not for every student. They they sometimes like to talk about that like you can be you can be anywhere academically and sort I I find that hard to believe, right? >> But um so but I do think let's make sure we schedule a like a subcom we'll form our own subcommittee. Can we do that? make sure we can just talk about this and um what what elements of it we might want to um >> do we have to go to dual you know I mean trades here and classical >> well those are things we should talk about but but

129let me let me also say if you if if we were to to to add serious components of the classical of the typical classical curriculum into Here I am going to tell you right now it will have huge hiring implications. >> Yeah. >> Huge. >> Right. Especially the language parts. >> Yeah. >> And the history >> and and it could even in the music have >> and open enrollment would affect us both ways. >> Gain some lose some. >> So these are but these are things we have to think about as we talk about it because we can't talk about it in isolation. It's got to be talked about this. So, we'll we'll have a separate meeting to >> We can't have Yeah, I know what you're saying. We can't have a little a little

130committee that decides on something for everybody else. >> Yeah. No. No. Okay. >> Okay. Um I think with that we'll move on to the human growth and development advisory committee update. >> Um Lori, did you have a question? No. Oh, I just thought that. Okay. Uh Sam, are you still with us? >> Yes, I am. Can you give us your take on the human growth and development advisory committee and then we'll get Ashley who is actually run been running. >> Yeah, sure. Um, so last uh the last meeting we had uh at the end of March was kind of uh it was a lot closer to what we do at each of our committee meetings and it was hashing out uh you know various changes in the curriculum. Um, we got through elementary and part

131of middle school. We didn't get through all of the middle school discussion points. Um, so the next meeting we're going to have, we're going to finish up on those discussion points and we're going to move forward. Um the main uh the main sticking points were about the definition of contraception and about some of the technical uh scientific uh you know elements of what comprised some of those definitions whether you know whether certain ele uh techniques or uh certain items that are used for contraception are uh abortive or not and discussions like that. So, um, that's still ongoing. Uh, we're going to have more discussion about that, but it looks like it's still coming along at a pretty good clip. There's only so much you can do when you have a group of 25 people or

13223 people. It's it's a lot of people having that discussion. So, I think that it's very productive and I think that people are getting their ideas out there in an articulate and respectful manner. So, uh, it's going well so far. >> Okay. Thanks, Sam. Ashley, >> um I don't have a ton to add, but like Sam said, we spent most of our time as a large group using our consens consensus process to move through those changes that um members had done in small group prior to that. Like Sam said, we made it through elementary um and we'll be looking more at secondary at our next meeting, which is May 5th, um from 5 to 6:30 at the Watertown Library. And um if all goes according to plan, we should be able to get through those

133changes and then bring it to curriculum at our next meeting and then uh to the full board if the committee here feels that. >> So there could be as early as >> Yes. Correct. >> Well, that's a Gilman's job. um especially with the committee that he large and I'm sorry I was out of time for the last two meetings but um I'm continued to be impressed with how you all have handled it and I think that consensus approach is really really helpful for this. So I think we'll all be um eager to see what we end up with and how these discussions go. Sam, thank you for being the liaison on that. We're very grateful for that as well. Okay. Any other questions on HD and E? >> Okay. Um, then we're down to item

134four on our agenda, action items. >> Yes. >> What we have, Ashley? >> So, it looks like bringing the elementary music curriculum course guides to the April board meeting for resolution, the RMS ELA curriculum course guides and the high school ELA. um Whit and Wisdom revisit at a curriculum uh committee meeting and then would you like the subcommittee for classical curriculum >> decided we're going to be that committee rather than maybe a future agenda item then instead? >> Yes. >> Okay, >> sounds good. And that's all I have for action items. >> Anybody else? That sounds good. >> Okay. Future agenda items. Um, as Jenny mentioned before she left that we would be looking at um, history coming up or um, I think secondary level is what she was talking about. >> That was I

135think history was supposed to come and I think it wasn't ready quite yet. So >> I think that's next and possibly um, 612 music would be coming in May. Joseph, does that sound? Well, just Anton I'm telling you um kudos to everybody involved with these because we asked for a shorter timeline than what you know um was suggested and you folks have really done a great job of convincing people that you can not only meet that deadline but the new deadline but also maybe beat it. >> So I think they're making great progress in getting this information to us. >> Very correct. So >> yeah. >> So that will be coming up. Anything else? I think obviously future agenda items would be with wisdom as well as the so >> yes and then um the

136update from our next human growth development. >> Yes. >> Um and then she does have tenatively um elementary literacy science of reading uh update in June. >> Yes. And I think that's in part from Lori. >> Okay. Yes. She has that noted here. We want to we want to do a deep dive into that. Mississippi plan and some of those things. >> Anything else? Okay. Uh we'll adjourn at the curriculum committee meeting on April 15, 2026 at 9:21. Thank you everybody.