03/18/2026 Curriculum Committee Meeting

001Uh recording, so we can go on. Okay, so I have 7:31 still, but we'll call the meeting to order. This is curriculum committee on Wednesday, the 18th of March. And we're in a different place, but we're one of the group and appreciate everybody being here. We're ready to go. Um I don't see any member of the public here for comments. So, unless something is going on that I don't know about, but so we'll forgo with that. And we have someone directing traffic. Let me say. Yeah, so I'll say. >> Oh, so if somebody comes in, thank you. Thank you, Jason, for direction. So, um the first item under agenda, uh 3A, is curriculum course guide review, RMS math and ELA. And turn over to Jenny here in just a minute, but again, just to thank

002you folks for doing that and doing it well. Um it's always fun to look through those things and uh to get, you know, more up to speed about what's going on through these course guides. And I just want to reiterate that we as a board do not see this as um meaningless. We do not see this as busy work. We think this is a really important addition to the transparency piece that parents and and other members of the community have. Um I The plan is to put them visibly on that on our our website and to make sure that people know they're there. So, so thank you for getting them done in such a timely manner. I appreciate Jenny making sure that all the schedules are coordinated and that these are happening. So, it will

003be a good time today for uh stuck nothing Anna and ELA person person. Perfect. Thank you so much. I'm going to introduce the two reps from the middle school that are here. Kelly DeGraffenreid is the team lead. I don't know if that's the official title for ELA. >> There's some long title there. >> [laughter] >> And Matt Olson is our math rep um from the middle school as well. Obviously, you know Leanne, who is our co-interim principal. Um I just want to just start with some brief remarks and then we can uh turn it over to the board for questions. Um just so that you are aware, we are in the third year of implementation of our math uh adoption. We are using Illustrative Math, which is an open-source math curriculum. We are using the

004Kendall Hunt version of that. So, how that works is Kendall Hunt um essentially prints the materials for us and we purchase those materials through Kendall Hunt. Um you'll note that we have sixth, seventh, and eighth grade uh math courses on there. We also teach algebra and geometry at the middle school. You I did not add the algebra and geometry courses because they're literally the exact same courses that we teach at the high school level using the same materials. So, if a parent had a child taking algebra or geometry at the middle school, they would be using the algebra and geometry course um from the high school. So, that is not on there. Um for ELA, we are in the fourth year of implementation of Wit & Wisdom. They did a process uh curriculum review process

005um I believe probably 5 years ago now at this point. Um they piloted Wit & Wisdom for a quarter um and saw tremendous growth in their students. Um went through with a full implementation. I should note that both ELA and math have done some extensive professional development work through both the company and we've done a little bit um with CESA, particularly with math professional development with that. >> [gasps] >> If you'll remember, um I had presented the 7-year course um or I'm sorry, curriculum review cycle. And so, we would be looking at K-12 at these sets of materials. Eventually, math was more of a K-12 process than ELA was. Um but in the future, we would be looking at doing those in more of a of a >> [clears throat] >> K-12 process. So, with

006that, um I other thing I would like to point out is that you'll note with ELA, there is an honors course with each one. They use the same materials, but there's just some differentiation um with volume of reading and whatnot in those more uh the honors course of that as well. So, with that, unless you three have anything else you'd like to add, I will just turn it over to the board if there are any questions. >> [clears throat] >> Well, I wanted to make one observation that do the board will know what we mean the term open source means when it relates to something like Illustrative Math. Um just just guessing here. Well, open source refers to software that's available to be altered to fit the certain environment that that we're using. So, as

007as Jenny pointed out, we're using the Kendall Hunt version. So, they have gone in and done changes to it, made it theirs. We've opted to use that. And so, if you get open source, it's it's usually a much better buy and then you can add on what you want. Can Can I ask why you chose what you chose? Um it was a pretty deep process. We actually practiced um took some practice lessons and and units from other sources. Um but basically, we picked it because it was uh what's the name of the company that green-lighted What are they Oh, um yeah. >> Green-lighted. Literally pulled that up. It is Ed EdReports. And EdReports um basically said that covers um the IM's resource covers everything we need as a district for um like ELA learners, things

008like that. They have Spanish versions, they have uh different different uh adapt adaptations that we can use for our math curriculum. So, like it hit every it it it was already approved by EdReports that it hits everything we need as a district. When we went through the curriculum renewal cycles for all of our like math, science, ELA, um we only went with things that were fully vetted through EdReports because that was that was the initial like if it doesn't if it's not green-lit across all of their criteria, there are areas that we wouldn't falling short and we wouldn't want that experience for students. And so, um yeah, all of our curriculums are fully I would expect that. Uh but I I was more interested in like how it is to work with. Um I also

009teach the high school stuff. My So, my own I like the Open Up Resources more than the than the IM resources. Like Open Up is what the high school uses. I I'm teaching my for my first year now the IM resource. It's it's good. It's okay, but there's sometimes I look at it like, what are they getting What What is their motive to teach this? Like sometimes it's a little confusing. Like where I when I read the IM resource, I'm like, well, I know what they're getting to. I know I mean, Open Up, sorry. The When I look at the Open Up resource, it's it's like, oh, I know what they're doing. I know what their strategy is. Like I can figure that out. Like I do prefer that, but [clears throat] like I said,

010it's also my first year in the IM. Like give me give me another year or two. Maybe I'll understand it a little better. It's kind of like a Is there anything that you can use to make it easier, faster, more efficient? Um there there is. I think there are there are some things I can pick and choose and use and not use kind of thing. Um I'm trying to do it to fidelity that first year, like use everything I got so I can kind of see it. I would do the same thing. >> And then and then next year, there'll be some some changes, some, you know, across this add to this kind of thing. Sure. And so, to clarify, when Matt is saying this is his first year in it, so he has used

011Open Up for algebra and geometry and previously, his entire schedule was full of algebra and geometry sections. And as we have really looked to make sure that we are fitting kids in the right track appropriately, um we have recognized that like, hey, those sections are a little bit smaller naturally if that's the right fit. And so, it opened up Matt to teach math eight for the first time. So, he is in his first year. The other math eight teachers would be in their third year of teaching that resource. And so, just making sure to clarify that that that piece and there's a lot of learning that goes along with doing it. Um it is more of an inquiry-based curriculum where students are in small groups like really figuring problems all out together and like kind

012of working through the the math and, you know, having a teacher as a facilitator rather than I am standing at the front teach like telling you what to learn. They are really working together to be able to figure out those pieces themselves. Um which is helpful, right? To create that deep learning and that's what drew us to IM more so than some of the other curriculums that we looked at. And Open Up at the high school is also based on Illustrative Math. It's just a different publishing company. So, it's essentially well aligned. At the elementary level, we're using Bridges Math. Bridges does not go through um beyond fifth grade, but it all three sets of materials take the same approach so that a kid will have a cohesive experience K-12 within the district or K-12.

013So, you you mentioned algebra and geometry and and then it got mentioned again. Can we do something that a parent that's an eighth grade parent or whatever that's taking uh has a student taking algebra and geometry that they see something on the website that says go to high school version? That's a good point. And what we could actually do is literally just post the high school version at the middle school so that if they are there, they don't have to go anywhere. And I think that makes a lot And that's the one that Matt submitted. Like he turned that into us and just for the purposes of this meeting today, it was like, yep, that one already went through with the high school, but that would be our plan is that like, hey, when you

014are seeing algebra, you are opening up the exact same thing that the high school would see. That sounds good. Okay. That kind of answers my question because I I read in there that obviously, they could take a algebra course or something as eighth grader at high school at high school level. Now, do they go to the high school or do they not? They don't have to. >> No, and that's what I was going to say. That's what that's what you just said. >> I'm high school certified at the middle school. Yeah, that's what I thought when I read it because it sounded like that's what you were doing. But yeah, yeah, that's the thing to do, too. Yeah. And in the in the geometry part um it's Euclidean geometry, obviously, right? Yes. >> Okay. And

015well, the reason I say that is because you have analytical geometry, which is taught at the college level. So, if you're learning how to be a teacher you you better take the Euclidean geometry somewhere along the line in your high school years. And at any rate, so they're going to be taking that the same way. Can they take that Can they take a geometry ahead of time as eighth graders, too? That's what I thought. And so, those are like that's the track system. So, coming through um Stacy Bargains has really kind of we work together as a as a team. Like we're looking at a crew, yeah, between Chris crunching all of the numbers for us, really looking starting in fifth grade. The students are like, okay, which students are single accelerated versus which students

016are double accelerated. And so, that double accelerated student is going to come out of fifth grade and they are going to go into our accelerated seven math course as a sixth grader. Then as a seventh grader, they would take algebra as an eighth grader, then they would take geometry. And so, they are double accelerated down that pathway. A single single accelerated student coming out of fifth grade would take our accelerated six and then our accelerated seven and then algebra. So, those accelerated six and accelerated seven courses are compacted curriculum courses and so, um the sixth grade course the way that you can kind of think of it is like all of the sixth grade standards and half of the seventh grade. And then the accelerated seven is the other half of seventh grade and all

017of the eighth grade so that the kids are ready to be able to do algebra and geom- right, they're able to kind of follow that track and get all of the standards work that they need without missing anything. >> That's great that you you've kept them out of fifth grade, you know, you identified them. And they are starting that work in fifth grade so that when they are coming into accelerated six, they are already starting to do some of that work. So, like we're starting I think earlier and earlier like end of fourth, beginning of fifth to really identify who are those students, what track are they really to support them as learners. And then getting them support earliest on so that when they get to the middle school, they can really follow the pathway

018that makes sense for them. Sounds good. Great. Yeah, one of the complaints I've heard is that the new math doesn't have a right answer. And you've probably heard that, haven't you? That that you don't leave with an I wouldn't say right answer, more like hey, a lot of times the kids will the kids will I'll have them leave the room thinking about something. You know, like I'm not giving them an answer. Like hey, we'll talk this the way the curriculum does it. It sets the kids up for the next day kind of thing. >> So, it's more like show your work. Sort of, yes. So, I think the way that we would have been taught math, right? It's like a teacher would tell you, this is the one procedure to do this math problem and

019we'll do it this way. If you deviate from that and get the right answer, no, it's wrong. Right? Like that's how we would have been taught math. And so, I am and the math curriculum's kind of all the way up, right? Bridges, I am, open up really focus on teaching kids the concepts in order for them to get to the right answer. So, when you say, yeah, there's no right answer, it's like there is an answer. The way to get to that answer can look different and it celebrates the way that students make those connections and those pathways differently, right? By highlighting that. How did you come to that answer? How did you come to that answer? Let's make sure you're thinking about it in the right way, but the way that you come about

020it, it doesn't matter as long as we all reach the the right answer at the end of the day. >> that's my struggle this year like your first time through it. I'm starting to see like how kids are seeing these problems. So, I have the answers. Like next year, I'll know like, oh, they're going to see it this way or they'll see it this way. So, I got to kind of accept both and you know, I I really appreciate that you're doing this at this time. Um a little short story, right? When I was in college, I took statics and dynamics. Um And I got a cold. And I missed like a week, right? So, we were tested on the day I we came back. The day before I missed he taught the theorem. The

021how to. So, so, so I I got the answer to all the problems right, but I did them in the wrong way and thank it for that. But um I think that's a really great change in education. I really appreciate that. But it takes a lot of learning, right? Like from our staff. And so, when Jenny referenced the fact that our staff have undergone a ton of professional development, it takes a lot of learning to be able to say this isn't the only way that we're going to accept this answer, right? Like kids can come at it from lots of different ways and being open like as a teacher on the fly being able to say, oh, Dan came at it this way, is that right? Oh, yep. Yeah, actually, the way that he thought

022about that, I'm making those connections. But that is really Dan, I wanted to give you credit. >> [laughter] >> But that really quick thinking on the fly, like being able to kind of do that processing work has taken a lot of training and a lot of work with our staff. And so, And I'm just going to add patience because I've heard math teachers who like, I know there is this way to do it and I just want to tell them this way to do it. And so, it has taken, I know for them it's difficult to stand back and let the students do the thinking. Well, when Scott presented the high schools couple years ago, he said, I asked him, "Who has the most trouble with this?" And he said >> [laughter] >> it was

023the high school students. They just want to do it >> do it. Yeah, they want to do Yeah, and they figured out in their head a lot of times. Well, and I I learned my lesson the first time. I'll give you a quick story. Like first time I was teaching this, I there was a great lesson. The kids were like all eager to learn and stuff and I'm like, oh, and then I'm we're probably going to learn this and we're probably going to learn that. Just just kind of little things and I ruined my next three days' lessons. >> [laughter] >> You know, all all that week or week, I just told them so like, you got to learn to shut your mouth and be a little >> [laughter] >> because you'll give it like

024you just ruin it like the next three days, the kids were absolutely bored because in five minutes I taught them >> [laughter] >> everything, you know, instead of having them learn it, I just gave it to them. And so, you you learn too like you read ahead, okay, I can't talk about this, I can't talk. I mean, you you can, but you know what I'm saying? Like you got to strategize a lot more. >> And a lot of times they push you ahead. Yes. >> They they jump in. I see what you're talking about all the time when I observe student teachers. I see sometimes at the elementary level, they're now actually talking about more than one way to come to an answer on something. And as long as they know how to do it

025to get the right answer in many of those ways, that's that's a good thing. They still need to get the right answer, but yeah, I see it all the time. So, it's good. Here's my Do you have follow-up questions? Yeah, I will. I I do have some questions. Okay, if it wants to follow up on what you asked, then go ahead. Um it sort of >> [laughter] >> Sorry. I need more coffee this morning. Um so, uh uh I know So, I'm kind of living this with my grandchildren in the fifth grade and the fourth grade. Um and so, they use IXL to kind of supplement. What do you do in middle school and high school? >> IXL. You still do it? I Okay, thank you. I I didn't know if Yeah, no, we that

026was part of the K-12 like So, the middle school teachers really recognized that skill practice, right? Like I am is really good about giving them the inquiry kind of group learning piece and giving them time to be able to flesh that out, but it doesn't have a lot of that practice that we would have come like become used to to like help us really solidify and cement that work. And so, the math department had said like, this is really great, but we feel like we're missing this additional skill practice piece. And so, that's where IXL comes in. Okay, that's great. >> That IXL is aligned to I am. So, you can literally like I am I'm on lesson blah blah blah, this is the IXL. Like these are the IXL skills taught within that I

027am lesson. And so, we can assign skills or you can build your quizzes right in IXL so that kids are getting that responsive learning right there on the spot. Like, nope, I didn't get it right. They can be told they didn't get it right. Let's go back and rework that. Let's look at how to get that right the next time. All of that is built within that platform. So, really truly intermingling the two. I am and IXL really go hand in hand at the middle school level. >> I also say like just getting practice doing the math on the computer because the forward exams are on the computer. Like they get to you know, we try to train them like, hey, even though it's on the computer, get a piece of paper and pencil. You're

028keep track of things, you know, like become better computer level students, you know, computer wise students than I I experienced that myself. I used to teach soldering. >> [clears throat] >> And I I had to re-qualify. I lapsed, I had to re-qualify. And the first time I took a test on the computer, it just threw me. And I I didn't expect that. I mean, it's the same stuff, right? So, yeah. Well, my my question that I was wanting to ask was that now that you've used this This is your first year using some of that, right? No, IXL I've used before. My first year is I am. But you've had a number of years using this program now. Have you seen progress? Have you seen actual steps where you can say, okay, we've reached a

029higher benchmark? I would say like most notably in the kids' ability to do the cooperative learning, right? that first year like that is a massive mindset shift for everybody involved, right? Like figuring out how to do that and to do that well. And so as kids are coming up like being trained on that this is the way we do math now as opposed to I am a teacher standing in front of you just telling you all the answers. It has forced them to like kind of sit back and realize like nope, I'm not just going to like be spoon-fed this is the answer and here's how I get to it. Um and so that has taken a while. So yes, I would say in year three we are starting to see like the benefit of

030having this truly be a K-12 alignment. Like that's what I would say like I mean kids are still practicing and it's going to take some time, right? To steer the ship in that direction. Um but they're getting a lot better, which is really cool to see that this is more normalized. And Chris um has created and I had shared it with Jolene like a like a system where we're tracking the forward scores and over time like from like the year before implementation first year of implementation and so that we can ensure that we are seeing positive progress with that as well. And so I know when she gets the forward exam which is starting beginning today I believe when we get the results of that I know she'll plug that all in there so that

031we can make sure that we are continuing to see the growth that we'd like to see with that as well. So I think there's kind of like when we talked about the assessment calendar and services they're sort of like different types of assessments and I think that is important for us to be tracking the forward exam results and EOCT and the EOCT suite as well. So And we're doing that with the English curriculum too the Wit and Wisdom. We've been looking at that making sure that it's successful for not just all students but for different demographics of students as well like are our students with disabilities successful with this curriculum? [clears throat] If not like let's talk about that. And because of where I don't think forward exam is being re-normed this year so we

032should have some data to be able to compare. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> One room country school house. Is that kind of like that model? I mean you're walking around to each student and It's not that bad. I mean >> [laughter] [laughter] >> No. It's the like the with the class sizes and stuff like that like we're it works out really well like and kids are going to start learning to collaborate and there are times like I'll just say hey you two need to talk. You know and the kids will slide over you know like you got to as a teacher nowadays like I understand like when I was the way I grew up it was you know this is how you do it. >> Sure. Now it's how are you going to discover this? And

033and then you're tweaking more of the kids like their thoughts like hey you got to use if you're going to do this then you have to do this. If you're going to do this then you have to do this like you just got to keep an open mind to get the final like you know there is an answer but like I said there's a lot of ways to get that answer. >> Okay. So part of the fun of this conversation from my perspective is watching Leanne in an instructional coach mode. >> [laughter] >> Fantastic Leanne. Yeah so yes I was introduced to you guys as co-principal and my role last year and for the last seven years I have been the building's instructional coach. So helping with all the curriculum implementation and working alongside these

034guys to be trained and then also then be supportive of them as they go through the trials and tribulations of new curriculums. I have a very good question. I don't want to we have Shelly here and we need to talk about ELA as well. So um are there any last comments about the math guides? Last question. Or questions? Yeah. Um so um I have one grandchild that um is not into all that social stuff where you you know he's sitting groups and he's like right? Um and I excel really bailed him out at the fifth grade. But at at the high school level um I'm wondering how how do you deal with kids that um are are struggling and I know I'm a little bit of a behavior nerd so I understand that when you

035learn something on your own works much better, right? Uh but when you get that tipping level of the frustration now you're going in the negative, right? How do you how do you balance that? Um checking in with students a lot like I'm I don't stand in front of the room I'm walking around. Sure. I get I I wish I should I should count my steps someday like like [laughter] you just got to make sure you're hitting all the like hitting all the kids. I will find myself in a lesson like I'm in the front of the room way too much like I'm doing too much teaching and not enough coaching. Sure. You know so I will find myself like I got to get around and just start walking around so like and you and it

036basically you have to say like you guys do problems two, three, and four. Instead of like hey let's do two, three, and four you got to do two and so you you learn how to do that and like I said some kids work great together you're right some kids work more on their own. Um a lot of times like like a student like that if I can say like hey you're really good at this can I send someone over even though they don't like it like once they know they're a professional at it or they're they're a master and then and then like the trick is like if you can have kids teach each other they learn a lot the kid who's teaching it learns a lot more and the kid who's learning from the

037student like if they get it from students it's more powerful than the teacher. We've done a lot of work with staff around that concept of productive struggle, right? Being able to recognize that in the moment like okay is this student learning on their own or are they struggling and what is the level of what's the threshold with which we need to then step in to be able to be supportive as opposed to no they're grappling with ideas. It's okay to grapple but we don't want you to like flounder and that idea of like yeah when is the time to be able to step in and have students right be supported in their their learning of that. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. So I know I have it as a one agenda item. I'm wondering

038if we feel comfortable as a team moving the math curriculum course guides for resolution at the March board meeting. We have a what do we have consensus here amongst the >> [laughter] >> Thank you. Are you guys okay if I let Matt go then like to >> [clears throat] >> talk to RMS? >> [laughter] [laughter] >> No I didn't need to eat I was too busy talking to I was too busy to eat like >> [laughter] >> I've been talking with the green like all Yeah let me say this before you leave. What you described is exactly what I've seen in an eighth grade situation down in Illinois several years ago. And she was the teacher was so good at that and the cooperative learning and putting them in groups and putting the right people

039with the right people just just the way you're talking about. They went from the bottom of the of their ratings as far as to the top. And I said how did you do that? And she said we did that by doing what I'm doing right now. And she goes around the country giving workshops about that. That very exact same thing that you're talking about and how you did it. So I I expect to see that too. >> [laughter] >> And that's the goal, right? And we're talking like as we have adopted now we have the resources we have the curriculum in hand. It's like what's the what are the fine-tuning pieces, right? That intentional grouping. That takes skill, right? To recognize what does an intentional group look like? So that is our next step for

040professional development, right? Like we are recognizing within our across all of our curriculums, right? Like the curriculum great but what are the skills that we are recognizing as educators that students need? What are the the things that students wouldn't want but they definitely need, right? That cooperative learning. How are we doing that and how are we doing it well? That's where the professional development is. >> I usually spend about 10 minutes at the beginning teaching from the whole class on something again. Then I gave them a packet to something to work on you do these problems. And like you said she was around the room all the time our student teacher was around them all the time talking to each group and the kids will often learn from other students quicker than they'll learn from

041the teacher. Especially I think in math because there's a block there sometimes. But thank you so much. I think math is unusually suited. Yeah I think I think it is too. It is. I think Matt. Thank you. See you guys later. All right. [clears throat] So questions or things we can provide to help with the ELA This is just a note to make sure that if you look at the attachment that is labeled updated eighth grade honors ELA curriculum course guide I think we should probably add the word honors in the English art because it's same as the regular one. Yeah. That's the thing we add honors to it. The first one Jenny. No yeah. The sixth grade. I just have to put the name on it. Yeah. We just add that just for clarification.

042I kept going back and forth between them thinking okay so which yeah So Thank you. Questions? Yeah Shelly. >> [clears throat] >> My concern six through 12 is are our kids getting enough writing? And it's when I was teaching I noticed it should have been two courses it should have been reading and writing because it you know really two courses with the same amount of time. So in your opinion is everybody getting enough time and enough work writing assignments? Um we write every day whether that's a quick write whether that's a paragraph um the larger writing is not as frequent so like five paragraph essays things like that that's more one per quarter. Thank God for me. As a grader of those yeah and I I think it was Gallagher that said if you grade

043all the writing you're not writing enough and I can't grade all the writing so I feel like they're doing a lot of writing. Um and I'm speaking for middle school obviously I don't know beyond that but um our goal is to write every day and try to get as much feedback as possible. One of the things we're we're trying to get out of services is getting volunteers in to read the writing cuz what I found is that what the kids appreciate the most are comments. You know I mean they're going to get an A. Those good students are going to get an A in writing. The comments would be easy for a volunteer to come in and say this is a really good you know um That sounds amazing because I I always tell the

044students they look at the most of the students look at the grade and they don't take time to read the feedback and the comments. So I'm I'm always pushing that let's open it up look at your comments what did you notice what um So the good students they'll read the comments but students who are less than you know the honor level student they kind of oh I I passed I made it you know. So to have but then them also knowing that other people would be reading it and giving feedback I think would be outstanding. One of the teachers that I taught with um would maybe give five or six writing assignments and say you pick your best three. And they would grade those and I always liked that idea but I just couldn't you

045know take that. I had to grade those other ones I just had to. Uh So I mean there's possibilities that you can give them a lot of writing and still not have to grade them all. And and uh The practice is still there. Yeah yeah. So if you guys can give me ideas how to recruit people and who to recruit for that volunteer program cuz I think that would be very important to have them come in and and they wouldn't even have to face the students. You just drop off the so It would be a in order that to be really helpful to the student somebody who's quite knowledgeable on the skill and art of writing. Right but there's a lot of readers out there and they've read a lot of good you know stuff.

046I'm I'm not I don't think it's a bad idea I just think it's because I'm a former English teacher as well and bore the weight of >> [laughter] >> I was a grad I was a grad assistant for in in the freshman English program and the number of papers we graded for at the was awful and as much as I I love the classroom that was almost almost enough to just say I don't want to do this anymore. So but the one thing we all know is that if you practice wrongly you don't gain a lot. So I understand the value of writing every day and I can see it. >> [clears throat] >> See it and and these are well done I like the way they're set up and I think it's clear and

047I think written wisdom gives you what you need to do to kind of set these things up. But do they in any way get feedback on their writing whether it's peer or Yep both peer feedback usually on a bigger project or bigger writing we have peer reviews and peer feedback >> [clears throat] >> but they always get anything that I grade they get feedback. So the things I don't grade well like exit slips I I look at those I don't grade those I want to know their understanding and where they're at but anything where I'm they're writing for writing and skills those things they'll get feedback on. Can I draw a diagram? I think a di like this might I prefer a visual. We have visual learners out here. >> [laughter] >> She was dying

048to do that. >> [laughter] >> Shelly's like oh my goodness the number of times we have seen like this visual over and over and over again. So the way that written wisdom is designed is that in every module right that is a quarter worth of content there is one massive end of module assessment. That's that big writing cue Shelly was talking about that takes a lot of time effort to put together. But within each of like the way that it's broken down is this is sorry that should be a T um is focusing question arcs. So there is a focusing question task and in like sixth grade for example module one there are seven of those in that first module. And so each of these is a bite size chunk getting kids ready for this.

049And so when I say bite size chunk it's like we're going to write a one paragraph informational like piece. Now we're going to make that a two paragraph informational piece. Now it's two paragraphs plus an intro. Now it's two like but you can see like they're writing something brand new each of those times. They're not adding on to a previous writing assignment. This is a brand new writing assignment every single time. And then within each of that this is a daily lesson. And so they might teach for four days and then have a focusing question task specific to those four days worth of learning that is getting them to a piece of understanding like how to get to that end of mod assessment to be able to break that down. So by >> each of

050those has daily writing tasks. >> Daily writing tasks right. And so I just think that's kind of helpful for like so when you hear like I know like [laughter] sixth grade one is a kick in the teeth with writing. I mean there is a lot of writing because that is the onboarding for kids at the middle school level of how to write an informational paragraph right we call it a two seat paragraph that's an acronym you'll hear but like from there the scaffolding and the foundation is set then six eight because they just keep adding and building and so they have to be really really good at it. So they get a lot of at bats. And so that is a rough outline for every module in written wisdom and it follows the exact same

051pattern. So kids know okay we've taught for three or four days now I'm going to have more of a cumulative writing assignment on these three or four days but I can't just discard that because what I did within that writing assignment is a piece of what I'm going to have to do for my end of mod assignment. So looking at those cumulatively will give me kind of that bigger picture that I need to be successful for the end of quarter assignment. So I'm going to ask the question that Lori asked on that. How did you come to decide on written wisdom? So um we looked at three. >> [clears throat] >> That was a long time ago already. We looked at a ton but like we got samples of things to three yes where we

052piloted pieces of three. >> and they were vetted of course that's what we looked at first and what really drew us to written wisdom was the alignment with our avid strategies um the whole idea of basing everything on an essential question and every day having a focus question and so many strategies we saw being weaved in that avid advocates as well. So that was probably the biggest piece that led us there. It is also [clears throat] very inquiry based so that it aligns like kind of written wisdom kind of kicked off like hey this is what we're looking for in that approach and so then when math came through they were like well the kids are already really good at that. They're doing Socratic seminars multiple times a quarter in ELA like that is just

053a normed process of collaboration with like I am then came through and it was like yeah this makes sense of asking our kids to do that across content areas which is important. That's good I've seen it work. When I was looking at the the guides it took me when I was in high school took a I don't remember the name of the course but it was meant to be I'll call it a liberal arts course. Because in the liberal arts you see the the confluence of history and literature and art and music you see all of those coming together in that kind of program. That's what written wisdom reminds me of is this this confluence of all of these various disciplines coming together. Um how does how does written wisdom work in this in the

054collective environment in the grouping nuns as Amy was talking about? I would say there isn't what five minutes? I mean like so Amy Clark has like the greatest line and I use it all the time with written wisdom. She said this is aggressive teaching. Like she's like I walk away every day like aggressively teaching and the way that that looks is literally I mean like if you are talking for five minutes that would be shocking to me. Like a 5-minute span because kids are constantly Okay. Turn and talk about that. Now get into your group to be able to decipher that, right? Cuz Wit and Wisdom truly is based off of the idea that the person who's doing the most talking is doing the most learning, right? Like that concept. And so if a teacher

055is stepping in too much, then the kids aren't retaining that. And so it really turns over to the kids that idea of like we are talking constantly. >> [clears throat] >> Can we talk specifically? >> Yeah. So um when when my daughter was in school, um the the group learning thing concept was was becoming popular. And um uh what happened was every time she saw it, she was like, "Oh gosh, no. Here we go again. I'm going to have to carry the group." >> Yeah. Um how do you prevent that? Clearly you're better at it. >> And so making sure to be clear, like it isn't there aren't group projects or things like that with Wit and Wisdom. It is what are your ideas? Make sure to bounce that off the person next to you

056because they might have something that might challenge your way of thinking or might expand your way of thinking to a greater degree. So like the assignments that they are doing are all individual assignments. It isn't like these types of things. Yeah. However, we just had like a reader's theater where a group had to perform a reader's theater. Um you know, so there's little there's things like that where they're working together, but also it's very well designated who's supposed to be doing what. So there really shouldn't be one job that is being done by one individual. Yeah, the group roles and the yeah. >> yeah, and there's like I'm thinking of other little daily things that we do that you work with a group to create a diagram of the trenches after reading an article. Um

057so then, you know, there are times where there might be a student who feels that way, but usually I group in all different ways. Sometimes it's very random. Sometimes it's level based. Um I like to put um the more advanced students together so they can kind of challenge each other too. Um but I you know, mix that up. So hopefully if there you know, with a student like that, it's they don't ever feel like they're always stuck with all the work. Okay, thanks. Are there more behavioral problems with this model? More? I don't think so. Okay. I felt like when we after a year of Wit and Wisdom Yeah, they >> [laughter] >> truthfully but like when in student rounding, right? Cuz that is something that Mike and I are doing a lot of this

058year. We just hit our 225th student last week of like individual conferences one-on-one. And hearing from kids, they are they will say to you like I'm never like there's never a long enough period of time in ELA for me to get bored because it is constantly like, "Okay, we just read this little snippet. Now you're talking." Or hey, you did this. Now you're writing. And so it's like if I'm like, "Oh, I really hate doing a quick write." Great. It is a 2-minute activity and then we're moving on. You're not lost in that activity for 15 minutes creating opportunities for you to have behavioral issues. And I think the routine cuz now we have that consistency in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade, I think they know the routine. I think they know the expectation. And

059I mean, there's always going to be behavior Sure. issues, but I don't think I could ever say, you know, there's not more. And is that what Amy means by aggressive? When she says aggressive teaching, it is literally like going >> She is walking around all the groups. She's checking in on groups. She's like, "I'm working a sweat like working the >> [laughter] >> Like to be able to make sure that like, "Okay, as I'm listening for these conversations, it's like, "Oh, Dan, you had a really great contribution. I'm going to call on you." So it looks like a random call on to all the other kids in the class, but he knows like, "I've got the ace in my pocket, right?" That idea of helping kids participate in ways that help them feel confident, but

060then having the class see, "Oh, it's okay to participate." Like this is a normed experience. That takes a lot of effort to work the room and to be listening for all of those group conversations to know here is who I'm going to call on when and why to be able to help move our conversation forward. I've seen a lot of Wit and Wisdom lately in my observations. That seem to be pretty popular. It is. And um I've seen it in the lower levels and upper levels and it does work exactly the way you're talking about. Um what I see though, I see a lot of different teaching methods being used in that one aspect and that's what you're talking about. And that's why and and talking about grouping most of the time I've seen them

061grouping by twos. Because if you had That doesn't mean you have to do it all the time that way. But and I think the reason for that is the fact that you don't get lost in the threes or fours uh with somebody else dominating the whole conversation. You you have to talk to this person. They have to talk to you. So you've got you've got twos. They break up into partners and so There's always a teaching time that goes on before that, especially if in the lower grades, especially a phonatic phonics type of a thing. Um my other question on top of this, I was looking at the standards and there were five basic domains, I guess, that they had in the standards. There There was reading, there's writing, there's um uh listening was one

062of them. And there was five. Which one of those is the hardest to get to in those standards? >> Grammar. Grammar was the other one. Yeah. And that's where we have IXL. Mhm. IXL is helps us fill that in. They have grammar is included for it's called the deep dive. So it's a 15-minute lesson every day on some grammar or vocabulary component. But [clears throat] we always felt like they're not getting the practice to really ingrain it. So that's where IXL has been coming in. And IXL has a Wit and Wisdom, although not not approved by Wit and Wisdom. >> There was a cease and desist going for a while. Like >> [laughter] >> like, "Hey, you can't just like slap Wit and Wisdom on your product without talking to them." And I know that

063cuz I'm close with Wit and Wisdom people after having so much training. They're like, "Yeah, don't get me started on that." It's like, "Tell me why." It [laughter] is very it yeah, looks great on our end because it'll have Wit and Wisdom module one. And it'll have all of the items that we've covered in our deep dives listed under module one. So it's easy to find. It's there. So and so that we assign those out to the students for extra practice on those skills. And they piloted. So whereas math was using IXL from the start of their implementation because they recognized in the pilot that that was something that they were going to need. ELA piloted IXL last year for the first time and then transitioned to that this year as another tool in their

064toolkit to be able to help provide that resource. >> And at first we were like, "How are we going to fit that in? We're already, you know, 90 minutes is which we don't always have is it's hard to fit everything in. But we have been able to use it along with the deep dives and as a support rather than as an extra piece. That's good. I I kind of expected the grammar one to be. The other one I expected might be a problem was the listening. And it's surprisingly they do so many like Socratic seminars and the roles in the Socratic seminars, it's like this group is doing the talking. This group on the outside is doing the listening and there are specific things that you are listening for to be able to give feedback

065to your peers about the things you're listening for. And so they do two Socratic seminars per module. So eight over the course of the year to be able to practice that skill. >> every day. >> Yes. >> [laughter] >> All the time. I've taught for years and years and all different levels. Listening can be a problem. >> [laughter] [laughter] >> So so I have a question. I I learned recently that IXL has a a parent function where parents can look in and see where we're at and you can all be in the same page with the teacher. Um instead of waiting for those teacher conferences which always come too late. Do you have that? Do you use I am not aware I am still learning all of the ins and outs of it. I I

066know I know there's reports I can easily send home. Um but I'm not This is that like a separate login and it it it it the parent can actually look in and see where they're at if they're having trouble with something? >> I don't think that we have that activated at this time. I just gave Bo the look like >> [laughter] >> What I will like what I will say is up to this point, like we we looked at IXL last year with ELA specifically because our our Renaissance like our STAR contract was due to expire. And so we wanted to be able to see, does this make sense as a replacement for STAR? So transitioning ELA over. But it was when we were asking them to explore IXL, it was never like this is

067going to be an end-all-be-all resource for all kids for things. Like that's what Wit and Wisdom is. That's what I am as this is truly supplementary in practice. >> And so we haven't done all of the deep diving into it as like what is every little thing that it can do in the same way that we have invested that time, effort, and energy into the core curriculums. And so I would anticipate now that we're looking at IXL coming due, right? That idea of are we re-upping? And if so, then what is the investment of time, effort, and energy into the training for all staff on what that looks like and kind of universal then expectations across everybody as we have really dabbled this year specifically in ELA to figure out what what does it feel

068like to use this alongside a board-approved curriculum. Thank you. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I the the IEPs and special special ed students that are inclusion in the classroom, um any any thoughts on how you deal with that because there's going to be a lot of different levels. >> Mhm. We have our co-taught classes. So, the um learning strategist is in the room in our highest populated um classes with um SWD students. Um we just had Wit & Wisdom come in and observe because that was one of our concerns. Like, are we going to be able to meet the needs of the struggling students? And um I feel like she came in and gave good strategies to make sure they it was all accessible to them. Like, ways to um hold them accountable, but yet understand

069that their needs are a bit more. Um we are doing a lot of modifying, a lot of like support behind the scenes. Um And I will say that comes now that they are in year four of implementation. Like, they truly know the curriculum in order to make those curricular decisions, and that was something that leading up to I would say like last year we started kind of dabbling with some of that, but like up until last year it was truly like two fidelity. Like, we need to know what this looks like, and then partnering with Chris to be able to get us the data of how is this serving when we are doing it to fidelity? We are teaching as instructed. Now, what do we need, and what does that look like? And so, our

070professional development and our focus has really shifted to be able to focus on students with disabilities and making sure we're doing right by every person who's in that classroom, and being able to say now that our teachers are true content experts. They understand the flow and the arc of like where that teaching needs to happen so that when Matt is describing like, "Hey, I preemptively did this." And then ruin kind of the learning journey. Our ELA staff truly know that now, and they're able to say, "Okay, here's where students are going to struggle. What do I need to do on the front end?" And then being able to train and get the resources necessary to be able to figure out how are we best getting everybody to like through that struggle in the most seamless

071way possible. And there are in Wit & Wisdom like the at the end of every lesson there's a a a box that will say, "Um if your students are struggling with this, you can try this." And so, what we usually do is read that ahead of time, and as Wit & Wisdom would say, we keep that in our back pocket. Yep. So, then students who need it as we're walking around the room, we have those things that we can kind of pull out and use when needed, but not to give it if they don't need it so they experience that productive struggle as well. What what I want to be careful how I word this, but what level do you think Wit & Wisdom is primary primarily aimed at a class um the average student

072the higher >> It's at grade level. So, like it is truly like at the if it's an eighth grade course, it is truly at this is getting you to eighth grade. And so, it has supports built in for our students with disabilities. It has supports built in for gifted [clears throat] learners. Like, that is specifically identified. And then we also have the resource called Prolog, so you will hear about that resource. So, that is from Wit & Wisdom. It was a group of uh multilingual learner teachers who were teaching Wit & Wisdom recognize that some ML students and students with disabilities might need front loading at these places, and so they created kind of a they don't call it an intervention curriculum, but they created this kind of side piece to be able to say,

073"Here are the lessons that you could have put into a like a specially designed instruction time to front load for students who might need additional supports and scaffolds." And then they come into class and get the lesson, and our teachers are a difference cuz they've been exposed to some of those concepts ahead of time, and the hands are up, and it's I've seen a big difference with that too with Prolog being used in SDI. So, Mhm. Good. After some years of using something you know how to anticipate Mhm. what you need to do ahead of time. Another really good resource that I've I found years ago was the Iris Center. Uh are you familiar with that resource? It's by Vanderbilt University. Check it out. Has modules, has all kinds of things for for especially for

074reading, math, and those kind of things. It's just another resource. It's very helpful. Um >> So, no, go ahead, Dave. Sorry to interrupt you. Um uh my now I forgot what I was going to say. When you remember. Uh have So, in looking through the course guides, I see that there are a lot of recommendations in the novels and non-fiction and poetry and all the rest of that. Over the I think you said this is the fourth year running on this. Have you had any pushback on any of the selections from parents or otherwise? Mhm. I would say at open house parents will come in like seventh grade and they're like, "So, my kid's going to read Canterbury Tales?" Yeah. My kid's going to read Animal Farm? Yeah. Like, but that's what they hear, right?

075Sixth grade, my kid's going to read The Odyssey. Yeah, they are. It's okay. It's a graphic novel. Like, right? Like, they they have kind of preconceived ideas coming into the curriculum I think sometimes without realizing like we we would never throw your kid into the deep end without like having them feel supported. And then once they see it, right? We have those literally laid out at open house so families can look at the books, and they can talk to us about them, and they like but the initial shock of holy cow, I read Canterbury Tales at UW-Madison as a junior, right? Like, it's like it'll be okay. Like, I promise you it's fine. They're reading Middle English, right? >> Correct. Yeah, they these are made for the that level. They do that all the time

076now. Yes. I was looking at the books there, and I was thinking, "Okay, yeah, these these are pretty good." I didn't see of course we're talking middle school here, right? We're not talking high school. No. Cuz I didn't I didn't see uh um some of the ones that you're traditional necessarily yet, but some of them are like you say. Iliad and The Odyssey is No. No. It's in different Um I'm in A Midsummer Night's Dream, Shakespeare is the original. And then they're reading They do that as the original. Um they do have the is it Folgers [clears throat] edition that has the helpers like some of the Shakespeare language and underneath it'll say this is what that word means or is. But that is yeah, they're reading it as intended, which is pretty cool. I

077didn't see any Dickens or anything like that particularly in there. But uh I thought, "Okay, at middle school Mhm. And And how are you doing, Megan? Yes. >> There he is. Yay! And then just make sure it looks like it's still recording. Okay. Hit the wrong button. I got a little overly excited about parent tip sheets. Um >> [laughter] >> yes. parent tip sheets. Um and I know they have been sending that home. They send that home at the beginning of every module, and those are linked in there as well. Um so, I just wanted >> scroll Yeah, go ahead. So, if you want to go back up, Jenny, I'll kind of talk them through [clears throat] it. So, the parent tip sheet is a really great resource. It's So, the things that would students

078get is a blue kind of workbook with a lot of the handouts, and we have found it is cheaper to buy those books than it is to print every one of those sheets individually on our copiers like just in terms of the economical value. Um but so, they students get these blue workbooks. In the back of the blue workbook is a physical copy of this, but we also send it home digitally. Um and so, you can see it outlines for parents here's what the unit is, the module that we're focusing on, right? In this case it's Identity in the Middle Ages. That's module one at seventh grade. And then it takes them through everything [clears throat] that kids are going to read or listen to or watch. They're going to like here are the works

079of arts we study. We are going to talk about these questions. So, like kids can like parents would have the ability to ask some of those questions at home if they wanted to. They know what that looks like. Um and then down below it's like additional like if you want to be involved, here are some additional things that you could ask. Here are some books that if you wanted to read them at home, and I don't think we included every one of those in our curriculum course guides, but that idea of like you have the ability if you wanted to to read any of those at home, and then just kind of tips for here's how we are kind of discussing some of these concepts so that we aren't leaving parents in the dark for

080what is happening within the classroom. Um I would say some of those books that are listed there in like the books that you could read at home, so when we talk about the honors um portion of the class, Wit & Wisdom has what's called a volume of reading. So, they have curated suggested resources that follow thematically with the content being taught within that module. And again, truly suggestions. Like, here are some ideas that we would give to you, but like it is truly open for student discovery. If a student comes and is like, "I want to read this book connected with our unit." And they can explain how they believe it connects um to be able to give them deeper understanding, great, fabulous. But that is a an additional component to honors that is not

081part of the regular. Um but you can see some of the titles there. I did list out the volume of reading titles in each of the honors curriculum course guides that again are suggestions. And I think I put that in either bold or italics so that families knew like yep like these are just ideas that kids are getting and kids ultimately gets the choice for what they want to read as a companion novel for that particular module to deepen their understanding. I have a question. So so I didn't see anything controversial in these but um how is the controversial issues policy going in this in this topic? I would say we haven't really had anything unloaded a parent tip sheet and it's just like if there is something that you deem controversial let's talk about

082it. Like we would want um cuz like that identity in the Middle Ages sometimes I think when you hear identity it's like what does that look like? We would happily talk you through like the idea of identity as it relates to this particular module and how it's being taught right? You see here the questions that we're grappling with and this is what that looks like to give parents that well-rounded view of what's happening within the classroom. I think that's a great example because that word identity has connotations today. Sam has his hand up. And Craig just put his up too. So Craig just put his up so Sam I think yours was up >> Craig's times two. I see two hands for Craig. Maybe both. >> [laughter] >> I'm picturing him like this. Both hands

083out. Let's take Sam first because he was he was in there first. Go ahead Sam. Hey thanks guys. Can you hear me okay? Okay just want to make sure I my my my microphone might be a little bit less than ideal. Um yeah so I'm glad that Lori asked that question and I think this is really relevant. Um yeah I certainly I I don't see every single detail for every single module in here and I don't think that that's practical to be putting into a course guide. Um I would be interested to know more about what these conversations are when I look at the end of the course guide it shows some of the questions that get asked in regards to identity but I do think there's something you know I've I've had my eye

084on Wit & Wisdom for a while and regardless of those earlier identity pieces I think what it leads to up in module three in the discussion of language and power um there's a couple of things that are a little bit concerning to me when I look at the handouts. They actually have them available online on the Wit & Wisdom website so you can actually see the handouts that they provide for each of these modules and um what I'm specifically noting is the the combination of first they came for the communists by Martin Niemöller in the poetry section that's in module three page that's page three of the of the PDF um and then when you combine that with the historical account called excerpts from Friedrich Engels revolutionary activist unionist and social investigator what concerns me

085here is the material that's being provided at least on the surface by Wit & Wisdom is is really whitewashing the history of communism and the Russian Revolution. Um it really paints Friedrich Engels and Marx as pretty benign intellectuals who didn't really who didn't really push for violent revolution or anything like that and it even kind of whitewashes you know Vladimir Lenin. It I mean this is their description of the Russian Revolution of 1917. It says a revolt taking place over several years during which a group of rebels led by Vladimir Lenin ultimately overthrew and took over the Russian government. Before the revolution Russia had a czar who was a monarch or king and who actually exercised a great deal of power over the people. The revolutionaries rebelled because of what they saw as the unfairness

086and injustice of the system and because they believed that under that system those in the upper classes were taking advantage of working people and others in the lower classes. The leaders of the movement embraced the general theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and established a new political and economic system based on those. They labeled their new political and economic system communism. So that's how this that's how these handouts describe it. What they're leaving out is the fact that it collapsed the entire country. It led to the deaths of let me make sure I got the number right. It led to the deaths of somewhere between 900,000 and 8 million people just across the Russian Revolution. That's not counting all of the people who died in the Holodomor. That's not counting all of the fallout

087from the actual Russian Revolution. I am very concerned about material being taught in our classrooms that is not accurately representing the horrors that came about because of these philosophies. This would be equivalent to teaching about Mein Kampf and saying that Hitler saw economic inequalities and wanted to address them and leaving out the fact that he killed 6 million Jewish people and many others. I think that that's highly biased and when you combine it with a lot of the language and the questioning for those earlier segments on identity and unfairness and injustice I'm worried that it paints a rose-colored picture of Lenin, Stalin, Marx and Engels and it actually kind of uh softens people's ideas to those wicked wicked philosophies. And so what I would say to that is like that particular reading that you quoted

088that happens earlier on because seventh graders right being exposed to Animal Farm and like the whole point of this is trying to make connections between the text right? Like what is that looking like and how does this how is this portraying over time? And that idea that like that excerpt kind of like lays a foundation for students to begin their understanding and then they start to do a deep dive more into Stalin later once they have they themselves have made the connection like oh oh like this is what language is doing and this is what that like what that looks like within the context of Animal Farm and like really looking at the character of Napoleon and how that presents itself within Animal Farm. There is that slow rolling progression and so I can understand

089what you're saying Sam in terms of like this those excerpts right like kind of like they don't hit on all of those points right away but that isn't the point of that particular reading at the time it's being placed within the greater like lesson arc as a whole. They do later get [clears throat] into like videos about Stalin. They are watching clips and things like that to be able to give them that more well-rounded view that oh like this isn't what it's supposed to be because again they are forming their opinions about the characters of the book and they're trying to make sense of is this a good character? Is this not? And they don't want to just come out and say this is who this is and this is why this isn't okay. They're

090helping kids kind of march to that to that understanding on their own if that makes sense. Yeah I mean I'm I I understand the concept that you're communicating there. It still concerns me that even in this discussion we're talking about the wickedness of Stalin who most certainly was an incredibly wicked person but I'm not talking about when Stalin was in charge. I'm talking about well before Stalin got into power. I'm talking about the millions of people who were killed under Lenin who I mean I I love Animal Farm. I think it's a great book but I do think that Animal Farm does not do justice to painting Lenin as the evil mass murderer that he was who used people's grievances as a justification to elicit violence against many millions of people. I I like I

091said I understand what you're talking about there but I am concerned that this is that the way that these things are being presented to kids is not with clear context and a complete view and that they're being presented piecemeal. Again the the definition of the Russian Revolution of 1917 that I read is not a piece from a single view source. This is the actual definition given by the curriculum writers themselves. This is not something that you know it's one thing if you present the the words of Engels or Marx. Of course they're going to advocate for themselves in their own words. This is the this is the supposedly non-biased middle-of-the-road position of the curriculum writers and it completely leaves out information about the seriousness of the Russian Revolution. And if all we're doing is telling

092kids well eventually there was a guy named Joseph Stalin who ended up taking power and he's the one who did most of the really bad killing. I think that like I said we're whitewashing the underlying philosophy that led to a system that allowed that sort of behavior. I understand that's a little bit beyond the scope of what we're talking about. the curriculum course guides that we have here but I think you know if we're talking about there being controversial issues or potential bias or inappropriate instruction I think this is something that we still have to look at and we have to be very careful about because I know if I had kids and they came home and they told me that this is this is what they learned you know this could potentially be a

093kids uh one of a one of the kids first introductions to the topic of the Russian Revolution and communism in Europe and if they told me that this is what they learned I would be incredibly upset by the misrepresentation and the whitewashing of such a horrendous event. And that may be something to keep in mind too when when you guys look at social studies curriculum cuz we have to remember this is an ELA curriculum and we can't delve into all of the deepest historical aspects but definitely I think that's something to think about for social studies and making sure everything is getting represented accurately. Can you talk about the connection to this example or other examples to the standards at that grade level? Yeah like so the the point of this unit is really to

094help students understand like the concept of propaganda and the concept of how words are being used to influence like for for good or for bad right? Students end up having to write an argumentative essay at the end right? That end of module assessment and so this is like one article like what Sam is quoting is one article that is leading them to creating an opinion. Like they're piecing all of these different articles and these readings together to be able to help form an argument specific to the concept of language and how it's being used to like to persuade. Is that like better if it's heavy-handed, if it's not? Um and so helping students get to that. So like the historical components, it's like yes that's a piece of what is being taught, but it is

095truly about listening to the words of what's being used and helping them create an argument out of essay specific to that. Craig Hannah Yes. Hi Craig. Hi, I'm sorry. I just got I I must have kicked myself off somehow. But yeah, I I agree with Sam to a degree about um but you know, I I appreciate that I don't know if it was uh uh Ms. Clark, is it is is that who's attending there? No, it's Mr. Grant. Mr. Oh, Mr. Grant. Um So um yeah, I I I appreciate the explanation that this is uh this is really uh an ELA class at this point. It's not really a social studies class, but I I do I do um value and and and think that some of Sam's concerns are are valid. Very very much

096so. The other the other thing too is um in um when it comes to like like for instance Animal Farm, there is is there an expectation among your staff that that particular topic of discussion should be uh should be disclosed to parents as part of a controversial issues policy. Um I believe so what we have told them is as part of their family tip sheet when they are sending those home, they are openly identifying like it like any of this could be deemed controversial from anybody and if that is the case, let's talk about it. So I don't know that they are particularly saying Animal Farm itself has been identified as a potential for controversial issues. It is more in the lens of here is the next unit that we are embarking on. We want

097to make sure that we are keeping open minds that families um may find any of the content that we um teach to be controversial and if that comes up when as you see this family tip sheet, let's talk about it and let's figure out a way to be able to help you feel comfortable and confident moving forward with whatever it is that we can create for you for your students' experience. Well, I think some look I am in full agreement with what Sam was talking about because when when history is is whitewashed or revised in a way that makes it seem more palatable to people, it sends an inaccurate message and um when we don't have an accurate view of history, whether it's portrayed through an ELA class or a social studies or history class,

098what we lose is perspective on on our own national uh being and our our our role and in the future. And so I think the concern here is is that wit when wit and wisdom can puts these kinds of cuz I think this what Sam was saying is I don't think that the students have access to what Sam wrote, but I think it's available to teachers. Mhm. Am I correct? Okay. So that the teacher comes in and doesn't really know much about Joseph Stalin or or Lenin, reads that and says, "Oh well, this is what I need to say about this should anybody have uh a question." And then what gets planted in the students' mind is a very um I'll use the word inaccurate or at least not complete picture of the tragedy of

099what happened in the Russian Revolution um in particular to these men. Um I do speak with some authority on this. I I have a strong history background and I actually took a course at UW Milwaukee on on Russian history and they were bad people. Mhm. They were really bad people and they did atrocious things. They practiced genocide for for the most part. I mean, that's really what you have to say. Um so that's our concern. Is that if if they only get that picture, then when they come to these kinds of assignments, how do they then um put all that together in a way that [clears throat] has some foundation in reality. I'm not familiar with this, but did didn't you say later Yeah, and so like that idea like the historical context. Like kids

100aren't writing about Stalin. Kids aren't writing about any of that. They are looking at truly the power of language as it relates to Animal Farm. And so it is just helping them kind of create like some background understanding of how Animal Farm came to be, where Animal Farm is based out of, why some of these ideas might be presenting themselves in the way that they are specific to Animal Farm. So it truly doesn't dive into like this grand historical like overview, nor do I believe it should, right? Like to a lot large degree, it's an ELA classroom. And so like our social studies, like we could certainly look at that as a unit to be able to be explored. But that idea of like we are teaching Animal Farm and we are giving kids access

101to some of the historical context that would make them make sense of the characters within there in order to make an argumentative claim about the language being used in Animal Farm and how it is how it's powerful, right? Or not powerful, right? But they have to come up with that on their own using Animal Farm as its basis. Yeah, can you can you speak to uh just the interplay between Animal Farm in this scenario or different text? And the measuring of progress of student progress as relates to the standards. Can you just speak to that a little bit? Yes. Like the student like this unit is based on like fictional text. Like that is the purpose of this unit. Like this unit has some non-fictional text components, but those aren't the assessed standards um for

102any summative measure within this unit. Like this unit is truly focused on are you able to comprehend this fictional text and are you able to create an argumentative assignment like writing piece out of that? So it's looking at like the reading comprehension specific to fictional text and it's looking at the written like a student's writing ability specific to argumentative writing. Does that answer? Totally. Lori So so I read it in the way that you explained how you understood it. Um but Sam does have a valid valid point in that it doesn't appear balanced enough. You've got Animal Farm here and then you've got genocide here, right? So so I could see the concern which is which is why we have the controversial issues policy so that parents who have concerns that we don't see, Mhm.

103we can validate that. Yes. Um but I I you talked about your connection to the Wit and Wisdom people. Do you have an opportunity for this kind of feedback? Like, "Oh, we didn't see this." So Absolutely. Yeah, I would I think it'd be fascinating to read the the end of module pieces that they come up with to see how they put all that What they got out of it. No, I want to Um they'll be due next week. >> [laughter] >> Truthfully, like honestly, you could come in there right? So our teachers Emily Asper and Jessica Wortman are the two seventh grade ELA teachers um currently teaching this. They are currently like if I were to walk back in right now, they are probably in some sort of preparation for like in that like six,

104seven like trying to get through their focusing question test probably right around there um for students wrapping up this module um because it'll be due next week. Aggressively. Yes. >> [laughter] >> Aggressively teaching, yes. Wiping the sweat as they go, yes. I think Sam has his hand up. Yes. Go ahead, Sam. Yeah, just yeah, just one final comment. Thanks for considering what I have to say here. I just did want to point out because Julaine, you said earlier this is something that would be available to the teachers, not the students. What I'm reading from is actually the student edition of the material from this curriculum. So this is something that's directly provided to the students. It's not a propaganda piece or at least it doesn't present itself as propaganda piece. The things that I'm reading

105from present themselves as just neutral historical accounts. So um kind of like you said, uh the reality is regardless of what the class is, if you are presenting something inaccurately, it's a it's a dangerous situation. Um and when we're talking about Engels and Marx and validating their ideology and we're saying, "Well, look, Engels said that living like a person in living a living a a lower class life was worse than living as an animal." And then we're pairing that with Animal Farm along with all of the other stuff that's being talked about throughout the rest of the or throughout the rest of the the the curriculum for this year, I think it really does paint a picture and kind of almost creates a garden path, if you will, um and leads people down this idea

106of, "Well, Marx and Engels had a lot of valid points. It was just that this individual Stalin kind of screwed it up and uh you know, I this is really something we're going to have to examine a lot more closely. Uh with Wit & Wisdom, I you know, this is something that I've been kind of noticing for a while is the tendency to lead kids down a specific pathway. A lot of times what we're dealing with is not um explicit propaganda that paints itself as propaganda. A lot of times when we're dealing with indoctrination, it comes across as very neutral and subtle because that's one of the most effective ways to muddy the waters. I'm wondering next steps. Um it sounds like there might be a request for some additional information. Um I know that

107the team would be more than happy to provide you with the resources that you need or may want um to continue to examine and wonder. And so, if that would be an appropriate next step, we can certainly get you materials. Um if you want to take a look at that, I know it's like the ELA materials of the elementary level. Uh some of our board members wanted to examine like the physical copies. There are things like that we can do if that would be supportive of that. Yeah. And Sam just gave a thumbs up. He liked that idea. Yeah, I think it's a good idea. Okay. >> [laughter] >> So, as a next step, I would have that we would be able to get the student materials available to any um members of the board

108who may be interested. And then I think some time to be able to review. I think if we can have questions at uh ahead of time so that we're like able to address them appropriately. That would be certainly helpful. And then revisit this um at a later date. I do think that we want to make sure we give you guys enough time to be able to review those materials and I think they'll be quite a few materials. Is that Do you think that that I don't mean to cut you off. Is that specific to module three, seventh grade? Like this Animal Farm. Like are those the materials we're talking? Do you like I'm just wanting to make sure that I can compile Yeah. I think that's that's the minimum. Mhm. Um I don't know. Did

109anybody have other questions about any of the other grades or modules within the other grades [clears throat] in particular? I knew when I saw this one out there, this would be the one that had most question on it. Um I had a couple questions and some other things, but it wasn't Yeah. And so, yeah, we can get you those materials and then any questions ahead of time and um I think it's always nice to have experts in the room um who know that and can speak to it. Well, and I may not bring Shelley next time. I may ask Jessica or Emily to come. Um and so, yeah, just looking for what would you like? What resources? When you say, I will compile whatever it is that would be helpful. I just want to make

110sure that I'm honoring that request appropriately. I think probably anything that gets actually given to the students or is available to the students digitally or otherwise during the course of that. Um Danny, are you making note of that? Okay. If there teacher prepared materials that correlate with this that you know, talk about presentation or Like our slides. Yeah. I I noticed um one thing you didn't cover was uh the history of the American government. Um the US government. Uh is that ever covered? Social studies. >> Social Social studies. So, not in the ELA. Mhm. Correct. Because this is focusing on they chose Animal Farm. Right. Wit & Wisdom chose Animal Farm to deal with the topic of the power of language primarily through and propaganda. Being able to discern the the words and the phraseology

111that is um loaded Or that's a better way to So, it's uh so that's why so we don't have a really great example here. >> Well, and and yeah, and I mean from a literary standpoint, Animal Farm is a good piece for that. Um everybody that's ever read that, I mean it's it's kind of a classic Mhm. in that area. The the rub on it is how it gets handled. How the ancillary materials that come in here are used to help these students understand propaganda. Um you know, you could choose words from Lenin and Stalin that would make you think they were just saints. Mhm. You could also choose words from Lenin and Stalin that would disclose the reality of what they were and what they did. Okay. Um so, I think that's what And

112and it's part I wish I could think of the term I use for that course cuz this is so illustrative of it. When you are trying to bring all these different pieces together from the art world, the music world, the the non-fiction world, you know, the poetry angle. It's a hefty task. It's really challenging. >> That idea of multimodal learning, right? That idea of like a kid may connect with an art piece very differently than they would connect with Animal Farm. And being able to like say, it's okay for you to form an opinion and have like be able to express yourself and have that be a cited text in the same way that an article would be a cited text. Like and our students do, right? They will cite all of those different pieces

113um because they're making sense, right? It's like that sense-making piece and It's similar to I would love to see this Anytime. I mean literally you can come back. They're going to be in prep here. >> [laughter] >> They're going to be in prep for the next hour, but then after that like truly my schedule I would love to have you in I mean you could come in today if you wanted to come in. I I can't I don't have the time today, but >> an email and I will >> [laughter] >> I'll take you through. Absolutely. And I would say next Friday, like would you say next Friday is people would be wrapping up end of mod? Most we're a week off because of DC. So, our end of mod is going to be a

114week late. So, So, within the I would say within the next week if you're hoping to see what that culminative like I want you to be able to see that experience. Thank you. So, for next steps, I have getting the seventh grade done. Sorry to cut you off. No, you didn't cut me off. I just think it's hard to wrap wrap your head around this one. Yeah, so we'll get you the student-facing materials as it relates to that particular module. Um if there are any board members who are interested in seeing it in action, reach out to Leanne and she can set up a time to do that. Um and then we'll schedule a time to revisit this at a curriculum meeting. Sound good? And just know I typically don't tell them you're coming. Like

115when we have people pop in, like they are very used to people coming in and so that way you are truly seeing this is what instruction looks like on any given day. So, it's not like, oh, somebody's coming. We have to do something different. Like I just want you to be reassured. That's why I have you coming through me just so that yeah, we can walk right in and you can see what it would truly be like. And bear in mind that uh spring break is not next week, but the following week. Yeah. You think you might be surprised to find that this is fairly uh fairly benign uh lesson uh module in and of itself, but um you guys can form your own opinion. Well, it certainly sounds like a much more interesting way

116of teaching than when I was in school. So, Mhm. I do know that engagement has been a huge focus of the middle school and that is something that um both through admin strategies, the middle school goals, and the work the teachers are doing is really ensuring that kids are engaged during their instruction. >> Every voice every day. That is the goal. >> [laughter] >> Every voice every day. And that depends on what the teacher does with this. Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> Danny is a former English teacher. You know, there are the former English teachers here and I I'm of the persuasion that a good English teaching the the pedagogy of teaching English really does involve all these things. Because you need to set the historical context. You need to set the the cultural context.

117You need to have that people and and the things that about the you have in their posters and photography and and they're powerful. And and they do add to it. It just gets really tricky to make sure that it all comes together in a way that presents the full picture. historical context. I I personally think teaching critical thinking is one of the most important things we should be doing in school. How does that happen? Critical thinking happens when when multiple perspectives come into play. And that that we're not on a single track. And we present the the you know, whether it's two sides or maybe there's even more sides and perspectives on an individual issue. And they are presented and and the students are helped to understand those perspectives and they're going to put it

118into their world view framework and um come up with a a way to handle that. But that's how we teach critical thinking. Critical thinking isn't taught when we just tell them this is And and so, the the multiple perspective >> [clears throat] >> approach is part and parcel I think folks coming in to see the phenomenal work that goes on to that very point is really going to be powerful. I also can't uh uh escalate the idea of the connection to the standards, right? I think that's gotten a little lost here, right? But the the the Animal Farm discussion is a vehicle for us to get to the standard and the standard is what we measure student growth around and achievement. And so I think you'll also see that as well. That that's going to

119come up when you look at forward scores. That's right. And I I'm planning on coming over tomorrow. Please, yeah. Um if you could um so we have forward testing first thing in the morning. So that is like the kickoff. >> [laughter] >> So I can have you be a I can have you peep in a window, but I can't have you in a room as a non-testing individual, but yes, aside from that, um I would say anytime after 10:00 a.m., please. Yeah, please. We would love to have you. And if you could let me know when to expect you so she's >> Yeah, I will. I'll check that out. And then for those student materials, am I PDFing that and sending that? Are we getting together and I'm bringing physical copies? What would you What

120would you prefer? I think we would prefer to see it. Then the PDF is fine. Get up with everybody. Yeah. >> Yeah. And are you planning on going at so that we can start thinking about the questions and Are you planning on going at 10:00? I'm going to look at my schedule. Okay. Okay. Just send me an email and I'll coordinate with you. Yep. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was very nice to meet all of you. Yeah, nice to meet you, too. And thank you for your work. Yeah, thank you for your time and everything you do. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I forgot to wear green yesterday, so I Well, it that probably matches all the pinches you got and like the bruises, right? Thank you, Shelley. You made

121my job easier. Thank you. >> [laughter] [clears throat] >> Yeah. Wow, thank you. Glad to hear that. Okay. Say hello to Cathy. Thank you, Cathy. >> [laughter] >> So we are now 9:00 a little after. We now are on agenda items 3B, graduation requirements, high school credit for courses taken by middle school students and the eighth grade geometry discussion. Jenny. And I can I appreciate Chris Moy. She joined us for this conversation. I feel like as the data person as well as a former math teacher, I think she's going to have a very useful perspective for us. I do want to point out that we do have some work that we need to do with our graduation requirements. And for in preparation for this conversation, I pulled our graduation policy um that was adopted with

122the new Neal law and I didn't note that um we were we did not um include the portion that had been in the retired policy as it related to uh high school high school courses taken in the middle school. And so we are going to need to revisit that um policy. I've let uh Sarah Audenhoven know and I know she's working really closely with uh policy. What I did pull um and I I don't know if I'm sharing this now, but I'm going to go back and share it. Um the retired graduation policy which has um that has language in it that we were planning on to but will also need to be um added back in to our current graduation policy. We had an entire policy that was high school credit for courses taken

123by middle school students in our previous policy book. Um and we will need to add language back into our graduation 5460 as it relates to that. However, what we're here to talk about today is that we had a policy where it says students in eighth grade enrolled in geometry at Waterford High School may receive credit toward the three required math credits needed to graduate. Um but students graduating in 2017 and beyond will be required to complete three credits of math and three credits of science in grades 9 through 12. So the idea being the conversation we had previously with Matt Cons, those students in eighth grade taking geometry do get high school math credit for it. But we also required that they would take three courses of math at the high school. Which would mean

124that they would take algebra two or advanced algebra, they would take precalculus, and then they could take either calculus or AP calculus or AP statistics to get to their three at minimum. Um I know that last month Dana Wagner, who is the math lead at the high school, did express um some mild concern about that and then that's where this conversation came from. So like I said, I invited Chris to sort of address the why behind that and then the curriculum committee could have a conversation about how do we feel when we update the policy and we can pass that sort of guidance on to the policy committee as well. So Chris, um do you mind kind of sharing where that came from, what the thought behind that was, and sort of the data that

125you have behind that? Yeah. So um the original 2017, I believe this adoption was under the idea we are accelerating these kids not to be done early, but to be able to take the more challenging math classes, calc AB during their junior year, calc BC during their senior year. Um and I think it was a what they thought was best for students to be taking math their junior year. Um Dana Wagner brought it up at the last meeting that she just had some concerns somewhat with the equity issue of the fact some kids could come to the high school, take algebra, geometry, and need the advanced algebra algebra two and be done, right? They got their three credits. And because these kids were accelerated and doing it early, we already weren't even counting the algebra

126as a math class. And they took geometry in eighth grade, but then would have to take advanced algebra as a freshman, which would be the end for some kids and their beginning, then precalc, then calc or um AB or AP statistics. So Dana really wanted you guys to think about like do we want to continue the policy as is, telling the kids they have to take the three years while they're in the high school, or would it make sense to say that they need to get the three credits of math being geometry, advanced algebra, and AP precalculus um ending their sophomore year and then it would be their choice to continue forward? Part of her concern is these kids make this decision in fifth grade. I want to take math forever. I'm really good at

127it. And then by the time they're a sophomore, their plans change and they are tied to a decision that they are as Dana said, probably their parents made when they were in fifth grade. Um I think everyone should take math for four years because I love it, but I know other people do not love it. So I I do see Dana's ideas in that and just thought I could try to share them and kind of open it up to your questions on that with that understanding. Go ahead, Shelley. >> Say it one more time. They're giving ACT tests at the high school right now or you know would have joined us for this conversation. So so um I hated math until I went to college. Uh and I feel like you shouldn't be locked into

128this, like you must take this much in in high school if if you've already gotten what you need, you know, partially in in junior high. Um so I would be very much in favor of of this. I think that it's very um individual specific and I think we need to recognize that students are still individuals. >> [clears throat] >> Fair. I think one thing that we have really improved upon over the last three years or so is um the sort of placement of students in that double accelerated track and the communication with families ahead of time. Stacy Bargains, who's our AL coordinator, um works with families when kids are being sort of um identified for that double acceleration [clears throat] path and explains to them the school board policy that they do need to take

129three so that I do believe, I would have to guess, 10 years ago kids did not realize what they were in that double accelerated and what that meant at like at the high school level. I do think we're doing a better job of communicating that to families now. Um so to the point of like they make this decision in fifth grade, don't understand what the repercussions are. I think we're doing better at that now I appreciate your point of individuals and uh I treating each as an individual. I think one of the other concerns is that students with the trimester system, if they're done taking math by like the end of second trimester in 10th grade and then they're taking the ACT as a junior, they could literally have gone like a year and a

130half without taking any math. And I'm fortunately or unfortunately, that that ACT score does play a pretty key role in um next steps if the student is wanting to pursue college. Um and so I think that was another area of like, well, it's hard to think that you'd be done with math at at like two-thirds of your way through your sophomore year and then not take your ACT till the end of your junior year and then that math portion um maybe being negatively affected. So I think that was another one of the reasons why that probably was put back into place um for the graduating class of 2017. Could we not make it clear to the parents and the student that this is the case and let them choose? And I think that that piece

131of parent communication has been key and that that can be a part of that as well, certainly. I know it's being communicated now that they do need to have three courses in 9 through 12. And do we have any data, Chris, that shows what happens if if if the students had had that option that they don't have to take math after their second trimester of their sophomore year? We haven't allowed it. The policy has been they have to take the three credits of it, so we don't know what happens if they don't. I also like Dana and I discussed this is like five kids, right? Like it's not like there's a large portion. Like first of all, we were double accelerating about 30. We've cut it down to less than 20 because we, in my

132opinion, were over identifying students not based on data. So, we've kind of worked on that piece. So, let's say there's 20 kids that are double accelerated. Most of them, if they were identified, are gifted in math and are going to continue on, right? So, I think it's something that we have to think about and it's about those individual students, what's the right choice. And I can argue both sides of it. I really don't like the idea of them not taking math their junior or senior year, right? But I also know that sometimes they come to conclusions by their sophomore year about what they're going into, what they're doing, and there's other classes they might want on their schedules at that point in time. I mean, you tell me which side you want me to argue.

133I'll argue it for you right now. It's a tough decision, but I don't want you to think that we're talking about hundreds of students. Like if we're talking more than five, I would be shocked. I'm thinking you're talking two or three kids might decide that they don't want to take math their junior year. And then we have to just make sure our policy appropriately decides if we want them to do it anyways, right? Um or if they can choose not to. Chris, can you talk about the all the options after advanced algebra for the student as Well, we have an option of they can take a class they call functions, statistics, and trigonometry, but we historically have not had enough students taking that one. They can take it either after advanced algebra. I've had kids

134take it after pre-calc. I taught it for a couple years um back at the high school. Um so, that option is generally not there. So, then afterwards they have um calculus AB, AP statistics that would come after the um AP pre-calc, and then they have calculus BC that we have students taking their senior year. On these on these um students that we're talking about, the in the numbers you're saying, two to five, is that range? I'm assuming they would interact with a guidance counselor a guidance counselor to make course selections as they go through this. That and then I would assume that the counselor would offer the idea that continuing to take another math class or something would Uh I am concerned about that gap. Um because I think the drop-off in something like math,

135especially headed into the ACT, is pretty significant as far as remembering um what you have to know to do well in math on the ACT. But I [clears throat] I would look at the guidance counselors, I think, and parents, no, you are going to take math, you know. You don't have to, but you are. Um And that leads to the side of you saying they should have the option. Yeah, it's a very It's a very busy time if if you got a college-bound student anyways, and if they feel like they they've got a different interest that in you know, includes the basic math, but doesn't include advanced math, they should be able to weigh those those options. I would say if they're college-bound, they shouldn't be taking junior and senior year off of math. I'm

136thinking maybe you have a student that's decided they want to go into the trades or some other pathway where they are definitely not needing math, but this would be more pertinent. I would I mean, even sending in your college resume with no math in junior or senior year, I think would be really a bad idea. Very risky. I would also say you say counselors, and I also think our math teachers know our kids really well and will note um if they need a little more encouragement to take some additional math. I know I know that. I've had conversations with our math teachers. They know their kids. They know um they can take a look and see who's signed up for and not signed up for and can give them a nudge and can give them

137some of that encouragement, too. Um and so, I I do think that that is a I mean, I know that is a piece that our teachers take a look at when we're looking at their course selections and what kids have signed up for in school. So, Jenny, you could go both ways on this, too. Is that what I'm hearing? Um I, you know, I see pros and cons to both every day. I appreciate the idea of like individual kids making choices that makes the most sense for them. I also appreciate the always wanting to encourage encourage that rigor and challenging coursework, as well. So, if I do see both sides of it, um I do. And again, to your point, we're not talking about dozens and dozens of kids. Right. Okay. Yeah, I see the

138same thing as far as going to college. Um if you're good at math and you decide you want to go in a entirely different direction, that's one thing, but I think you're correct. If you're going to look at not [clears throat] taking trig or calculus and you've got that ability and background and you you're anywhere in science or math or anything like that, you need to stick with those that math course, or else you're going to be going into a college situation that says you have to take this before you could take the next course. You have to get that what you didn't get in high school before you go to calc one or two or something like that. So, I I know that exists. So, I think the the counseling part of this is

139really crucial. The And And like you said, Chris, if it's somebody who's wanting to go into the trades, that that's another idea. Probably not, though, with people that are liking that that much, but you I I think giving them the option maybe is a good idea, but I think that you really need to counsel them anything anything that's close to math, science, nursing, things like that, they need to have that math. Lori, um so, I am I am kind of curious why we don't we don't we don't have enough students to run the trig class. Well, we run pre-calculus, which is what I think you're referring to as trig. No, the separate trig class that you >> offer a separate trig class. >> So, no, what you just what you trig and statistics We have

140functions, and trig, which is a little bit of trig, which is also pre-calculus, right? It has a little bit of stats, right? Which is the stats class. It's a combination of those two classes, and generally speaking, the kids will be more likely to take the AP pre-calc, which they can get college credit for, the AP stats, which they can get college credit for. So, this is a combination of those two classes and at I would say a less difficult level. So, they're choosing for the more um more difficult option that will also give them a college credit, where this is often a class that we have seen if the kids are struggling, it's like, take this first, and then after this, you can take the AP pre-calc or you can take the AP statistics. >>

141So, in your pre-calc class, when I took when I took pre-calc in college, the first half was trig, right? Um is that what our pre-calc class looks like? It's probably the second half is trig. The first half would be more of some uh functions would be Oh, I I I may have that reversed. Yeah. But it's it's about half of it is trig. It would be the whole second semester, is my guess. I haven't taught it with the new curriculum, so it might be slightly different. Um but with the old one, the first semester was not much trig, and the second semester was. Cuz when I worked in the trades, um it was really helpful to know trig. And I happened to be the only person in the company and worked in a small company

142that that did know trig. And I had to sit down with the engineering department and show them this is a better way to do this than just like leaning on the AutoCAD to make the calculations for you. Uh so, I think for for kids in the trades, they miss that because pre-calcs I was like, you're going to college and being a math major, you know. Mhm. [clears throat] Yeah. Interesting point, Lori, in the trades, cuz a certain kind of trades, you do need that kind of thing. If you're thinking of other kind of trades, you need a real strong basic math, uh a real strong ability to do geometry and things like that. But uh yeah, for college, though, I I I still I I think the way Chris does, I know what the college

143people are going to say when you come in without this and you want to take a certain course and you haven't taken the pre correct course first. So, you're you're also taking that course again before you can get to the next level of math. And Well, the question before us is, do we want to recommend a policy? I think this >> [clears throat] >> if we do, that's the policy. Yes, correct. Yeah, if we want to recommend a policy a change in this because the current one is, you can take geometry in eighth grade, but doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to get three math credits in at the high school. Right. And the question is, do we want to change it so that if you have that set up, you don't have to you

144you were you earned your credit at the geometry class at eighth grade, and you only have to do two more credits in high school. Do we want to forward that policy? Yeah. Question, though. Are people complaining about this? Um I don't know complaining. I know that um Dana Wagner teaches the AP pre-calc class, and she has a couple of students that are pretty set on a path where they do not feel like they need that extra year of math right now, cuz she's in that group, which is what came in the end. Um So, they are taking AP calculus next year and not necessarily seeing it as something that they need for their future plans. So, I don't know that they're complaining, but having to make choices in classes that maybe aren't what they want

145them to be. Is that for getting out quicker or for taking some other course that they want to get in the schedule? Um I don't think um I think it's about just being done with math. In fifth grade, they loved math. In 10th grade, they don't love it anymore, and they're having to take it in the 11th grade, and they've already taken the classes that are higher than what other kids are going to have to take while in high school to meet graduation requirements. So, that would be where I went and talked to Dana about it yesterday just to make sure I had an understanding of where it was all coming from. And she was talking about specific students that are being forced on a path that may not be right. I You know, you

146worry about it both ways. Like, the decision they make in fifth grade and then the decision they make in 10th grade, right? Cuz they're guessing what their future may be at both points in time. So, I think that counseling piece is huge. Like, they decide to not take math their junior year if that is the decision of the policy, make sure their parents and their counselors and their math teacher are all having discussions with them about that choice and how it would affect them moving forward, which I think is something we can support if we decide to change the policy. Yeah, I think Lori's spot-on on the junior year is the roughest year. It is. As far as scheduling, as far as thinking about your future, as far as getting the right courses in that

147matches your pathway. Yeah. And and I don't want that to sour kids on math. It's like, oh gosh, this is like, you know, shoveling horse manure. You know, we never want them to not be excited about math. Mhm. I think Craig has a question, has his hand up. Craig? Yeah, I would uh I would say that if the intent is to bring this to the policy committee, that it would leave from this committee with a specific recommendation to the policy committee. But, traditionally, um I don't even know if it it it needs to go to the policy committee if the if this particular committee wants to um adopt or or adapt that particular policy within the scope of the committee's purview, um then it it could do that, but I I don't want to step

148on anybody's toes if if they feel differently. And when I when I spoke with Sarah about it, cuz I know she works um with the policy committee, I I didn't think the next step would next stop should be the policy committee because there is some other language that is missing, not just the geometry high school piece. There's some other language that we need to fit in with the middle school um course high school courses taken in middle school. So, I think that piece definitely needs to hit the policy committee, but I think the policy committee would appreciate I'm speaking for policy committee. I don't know if I have the right to do that, but I'm doing it. Would like would appreciate that Yeah, we'd appreciate it that it's a possibility. Yeah, I appreciate that. Well,

149do we want to make a recommendation? Cuz I think of that there is great truth in the giving them this option. Really allows parents to have some significant say in that. But, I think the counselor and the the counselor role and the math teacher role and the principal role it would be vitally important on this. Um most young people I I'm sure there are exceptions, but we all know most young people in 10th or 11th grade may have an idea of what they're going into, but change their mind. I don't know. Man, I changed mine about 10 times in that time period. So, um teaching was never in the never an option, by the way. But, so I so we have to guide them. That's right. But, do we want to make a recommendation that

150policy committee look at this and that our recommendation is that we allow that eighth grade geometry class to count towards the three high school credits for And then maybe with a caveat that says with counseling from the following people that you mentioned. Can we can we make the counseling mandatory? Just just to kind of like a belt and suspenders approach? Uh I don't we can't I don't know if we can Consultation with the counselor and the math teacher. Consultation happening. Yeah, there you go. Some kind of Consultation. language in there. What was your original recommendation? I think it's happening. Yeah. It is. Yeah, it's probably I'm assuming it is. I wonder about Go ahead. Sorry. If at some point it doesn't happen, then you have this belt and suspenders approach to say. I think the

151policy committee can review that. I also wonder about the language. Are we connecting it to uh eighth grade or are we just saying uh looking at the focus of the high school? That's just a little bit of different nuance, right? Uh are we saying that all students uh have to take three years of math at the high school level or are we changing it to if you had geometry at the middle level, you have options after year two? The the language there is important, I think. It is it is important. Yeah. And that's what the policy committee specializes in. >> [laughter] >> Well, and that but that would be a recommendation for us because it that very definitely is about curriculum, too. Um Yeah. Cuz what Jason is saying is our structure is that eighth

152in our district is eighth grade is the place. What I can do is I can work with Sarah to craft some language and then the policy committee can take a look at it if they want additional guidance from curriculum, they can ask us for that. >> My perspective is is this is much more about meeting graduation requirements than it is about eighth grade. That's right. Right. Right. So, I would I would lean towards language that was about graduation requirements in that area then tie it specifically to eighth grade. Along with providing options for Right. a relatively small amount of students. That's what we're Relatively few to find. Right. Very relatively. Okay. Okay. Perfect. Got that? Yep. Didn't take long. Good thing, right? Yeah, it did. Okay, the next meeting is The meeting is at 10:30.

153The the next item on our agenda uh 3C is with Watertown High School course request process and class size policy discussion. And um the attachment was for uh the policy 5105. Thank you, Chris. Thanks, Chris. As always. Thanks, Chris. Have a good day, everyone. You, too. So, Annie, this is yours to lead. We talked about it. Yep, absolutely. So, we have had a a request to have a better understanding of what the uh high school course request process is as it relates to the class size policy. Um I did meet with the um folks up at the high school to get a better understanding a more in-depth understanding of what that process looks like. I will tell you that if we have specific questions, I will uh probably jot a note and ask for their

154guidance on that as well. Generally speaking, this process starts uh surprisingly enough in uh late fall um when we um work with uh our teachers to get um coordinate any additional course proposals or removals to the curriculum what was the in-service committee, but to the curriculum committee for um any of that uh any additional courses that might be proposed. We aim for the course um book to be finalized by November so that we can get it printed and ready to roll because in December we're already starting to communicate with eighth grade families. Um January we're posting that course book for families to take a look at. We have freshman preview night. Um and then we do look for requests for grades 9 through 11 to be done by the end of January. So, um we

155have the data and information about how many requests are made for each course. Um It ties in really well with the conversation we were having with Chris. At that point, once we get the course requests in, counselors, admin are kind of looking through those course requests [clears throat] to make sure that students are, you know, getting the courses that they need. Um this would be a perfect time for that conversation if a child did not request uh an additional math course, um that we would be having some of those individual conversations with them. Um February, the course request process closes, um and then at that point, like the administration can get some initial impressions. And again, using the conversation we just had, Chris mentioned the math course that doesn't run. Um usually it's because you

156can take a look and see there's just a real small number of students who are requesting that. And that process happens across all of the different um departments. And usually at that point, that's just like at the admin level. At the same time we're having the staffing conversations, like how many teachers in which departments, um and and what makes sense um as it relates to staffing, as it relates to budget. Um this year uh Mr. Whitaker did have a process where he sat with the other APs, and they took a look at the course requests. So, like, let's just use these easy numbers. English 9, we have 100 kids requesting that course. Does that make sense to be four sections? Or does that make sense to be Is that going to be 25 kids in

157a class? Or is that going to be 33 kids in a class? And then from there, they're sort of building what the teacher um workload might be or the teacher course load might be. Um at that same time they're considering staffing and are we going up for a department or are we going down for a department? Um and and playing a role with that. If you take a look, we do have the class size policy here, and the one thing that I do want to point out is that um we have language in here about a target minimum for grades 6 through 12. Um and it does say it shall be 15, um and any exceptions would need to be authorized specifically by the superintendent of schools. And I think that process is something that

158we're looking at um to ensure that we're really doing that piece. As we've talked about with the um with the staffing formula, we're really aiming for that class size average of whatever we put in the formula, but we understand there's going to be classes that are going to be bigger and there's going to be classes that are going to be smaller for a variety of reasons. Uh like for example, sometimes Calc BC, we might not have 15 requests for that course, but do we feel like it's important for us to hold that course at the high school so that kids are getting that instruction at the high school or is that something that we can work in combination with university to be able to offer that perhaps face-to-face if it's here in town or online.

159Um and so those are some of the discussions that they're having. Um it is an incredibly complex process and I think that our team is doing a great job of using data to be making those decisions um and ensuring that though we're we're aiming at the average, we understand we're going to have classes that are bigger than the average and we're going to have classes smaller than the average, but just ensuring that if we're running classes less than 15, there's a really uh valid reason and that would be discussed with that with the superintendent and the math tables as well. Uh that was the overview that I had to prepare and I'm happy like I said to write down questions and answers [clears throat] for you or answer them myself if I think I know

160the answer. Well, we have language available to us here. I think it's adequate if we go over the target number. And uh some districts have saved money by asking teachers to take 32 students but give them like $2,000 extra. And that saves the district money and the teacher, you know, is is able to uh to agree to that. So that may be something we have to do considering that we're going to have some school closures in the future and kids moving to other classrooms. And it would be uh the cheapest option. So It It's talking about exceeding the class size. Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. Recommended class size. Class size. Yeah. So. I think I would just say that in a former life I was a high school principal, so I've done this work, right? And

161so that that what Jenny's talked about is the admin team having discussions and then subsequent talking to the team leads. I think those very conversations are happening, right? Okay. For the example I always give is I I talked to our fire teacher leader and said we're going to stripe every fire course at a maximum of 37. We just set it, 37. We also had a home construction course that we were we weren't comfortable putting more than 15 on the roof of a house. And so we just knew, right, that we'd have 12 to 15 there. Yeah. And everything in between up to like 37. I think I kept orchestra at 75. Right? So we those were conversations that we're always having with our teacher leaders and our teachers. But we knew that the class average

162or the school average was whatever that policy said. Right. So so that's part of what I wanted to say, but I also wanted to say that um at the um at the lower elementary level that uh I don't remember a discussion of ever having ever changing these target class sizes. Uh Probably not since we've been on. Right. Even even with with the consolidation of two schools, uh I I I've been assured that these class sizes will never breach that level. So I just wanted to say that cuz clarify. I I think when they when we started talking about this from my perspective anyway, in my recollection is it was mostly do we have courses in particular at the high school level Right. that have way too few students that we don't have justification for. Chris

163Malloy gave us an excellent example today of a course that's probably still in the books and still in the course guide. In fact, I think I remember seeing it that we don't have enough people in there to teach it. There's not a And And the question is what are those other courses? Are there other courses? I think what I hear you saying is Jason and his team are keeping a close eye on that and they would be making recommendations. Um and we had some recommendations in the fall. Um I think it was math and science courses that came out. Yeah, there were a couple of science courses that came out that were certain less rigorous options and then an addition of a math course came out that was a less rigorous option, too. Which Which

164probably weren't highly populated is my guess. So I think what you're saying is there's a plan in place, they're working the plan, and if there were these underpopulated classes, so to speak, um we would know about them and they would be factoring that into how they're looking at their staffing needs. Correct. And I would say that >> [clears throat] >> certainly they're figuring that into their staffing needs. And in the way the policy is written is that it's the superintendent who is being made aware of those lower class sizes um and the rationale behind why we're running that that. So for instance, if we have 14 students who are interested in Calc BC, if Jason's work with the administration and the math department indicates that that makes sense to run, um then they're working with

165the superintendent before that purpose um to make that decision. Oh, I definitely think there has to be flexibility. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So I I'm assuming that that you two are comfortable that these are being looked at and that especially in the situation where we're looking so closely at budgets and everything that every all these are no stone is left unturned, I guess it is. I do believe that staffing formula is really helpful conversation because the the principals at the middle and the high school know the number of total FTEs is the expectation to get to. And so then that just helps the conversation. Yeah. Right. All right. Well, but thank you for that. It gives us even more knowledge about what's going on in one of our schools when it comes to Right. Pre-K.

166And there's so much online offered now from legitimate places to actually help in that situation. I like your numbers here. I think they make sense. And what's what's really hard is when you have English teacher that has 30 kids. Yeah. And the grading is overwhelming. >> Right. But uh How do you think those pieces of that come into that conversation and including like the team leads in that conversation as well to like acknowledge that there are differences between some of the courses. Giving a bonus for teaching above that is is it's not a new thing, but that's interesting. I I thought about that. Is Are there any legalities with that that are a problem? Um I'm sure. All right. >> [laughter] >> That would be a good question for for our attorney. Yeah. Um I

167think it's something that we could think about. I really do feel comfortable with the conversations that the admin team are having with the teacher team about uh the reality that expectation we are having. I I think it's a really healthy relationship. It that team is good building. Good. And And um when Dan brought up that thing I thought was interesting coming from him because I immediately said $2,000 does not buy me more time. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. It's not a reward I'd be looking for. My hand. I'm sorry. I refuse the 2,000, but You give it to me. Well, I think I I think it's been used in elementary schools. Yeah, that So different kind of greed. Yeah. And every course, especially at the high school, every department's so nuanced, right? English has a lot

168of papers. Science has has labs to think about, right? So every department has those pieces and that really just speaks to the importance of the conversation. >> Absolutely. Any other discussion on this um item 3C [clears throat] on the course request process and the class size policy? Um okay. Seeing then we'll go to um 3D, which is human growth and development advisory committee update. I was not at that meeting, but I did see your minutes. And I don't Is Sam still on? He is not. No. >> Okay. It's too bad cuz Sam's the liaison. He was at the meeting. >> Yep. So. Yeah, I will just give you a brief overview. I apologize. Normally I try to get the minutes out so that I can put them in um this meeting agenda, but I did

169not get them done. Um it was a really great work session essentially. Um if you remember, we're dividing up um one group is looking at fourth and fifth grade, one group is looking at the middle school, one group is looking at the high school. Um we had proposed the idea of additional meeting times, but the team felt like they were making the progress they needed to um meet our goal of the May presentation to the full board. What the focus of this last meeting was was working through um suggested changes to our current curriculum. So at each individual level, they were making suggested changes to the current curriculum. Um the largest, I think, changes, if you will, would be at the elementary level just because of that those materials um weren't necessarily matching what the

170lesson plan pieces were and that there was wanting some updated uh like um visuals and updated like teacher presentation. So uh Jessica Weidenfeld, who is the teacher in the elementary teacher on the team, and Ashley Pyrick pulled together Friday morning and just revamped that so that it matched the we matched the materials with the lessons. Um the middle school had some minor tweaks and then a couple of more major suggestions and the high school just had some minor tweaks. Um I sent out an email yesterday to the Human Growth and Development Advisory Committee with all of the updated materials to give them this full week to review those. Um and then the idea is our next meeting we will be working through as a whole group all three sets of material or all three levels

171of materials. Um if the group comes to consensus that those are the materials they want to forward, then we would be bringing that to our curriculum committee either in April or May um and then to the full board in May. So overall I felt like it was a very productive hour and a half uh positive feedback on the survey from the folks on the committee um and I do feel like we are on the right track. Jenny says really nice job of organizing all this. Just to make sure you all know, we [clears throat] do not currently under the program that we are using for HDND, we do not purchase any program that is pre-designed. Um these are all pretty much department or teacher made um you know, building principal approved superintendent approved materials that

172have been used for fifth, sixth, and ninth. Yeah. So we teach those. [clears throat] So just give you a heads up, it's not a package deal. Mhm. Yeah. And so uh we will be meeting again earlier, it's Tuesday, March 24th um to avoid spring break and to avoid the election. Um and then we will know more on March 24th um at the time that we will be bringing it to curriculum committee. Potentially it could be in April or May is what our original target was. So it depends on how that meeting goes on the 24th. And we will have opportunity to make I I had a suggestion that I gave to Jenny and she said because I knew when I gave it to you that wasn't the appropriate place. I was giving her a heads

173up. But once we see [clears throat] this, we will also have opportunity to make suggestions. So Mhm. Okay. Any questions on that? Okay. Then action items. All right. I have three. Um the first one is to bring the RMS uh math curriculum course guides to the March board meeting. Um get the seventh grade ELA information to the board um and schedule visits as necessary. And then also that I want to craft the policy with Sarah as it relates to the middle school um courses high school courses taken in the middle school policy. And so I'll meet with her to do that. I didn't pick up any other action items. Anybody else? Those sound like the right ones to me. I think that covers it, I think. >> Okay. Any future agenda items? Anybody have something?

174You are on the docket with classical curriculum discussion for April. Okay. So you know. I I want to I looked at you because this was something you were interested in and you'd put it forward and it's been showing up. Okay. And parents have been asking about it, too. I've been hearing a lot. >> Any information that you want to give to us? Okay. So I have to do some research. Well, this is Just have fun with that. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. I'm not asking me for I'm not raising my hand to do your research. I got my own. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Well, no, but no, you're going to be one of my resources. >> Oh, okay. So but but I just wanted to let that you know that we it hasn't been ignored. When

175we transferred it into curriculum, Jenny and I talked about we knew this schedule. Today's agenda was too full. Sure. And I know that Lori, we had some discussion in Cincinnati about that. So But You I'm on a different focus right now. I'll be happy to support you, but I have an agenda item of my own to suggest. Okay. All right. So uh can we look at early literacy, the changeover to science of reading, how that's going, where we are? Sure. I'll have that. Mhm. Uh yeah. That's a good goal. >> Yeah. You have to learn how to read before you can get to the good stuff. Jenny, anything else? I'm just wondering pathway for the curriculum guides of ELA to be to the board. Do we want to pause that and take a look at

176that that unit and then get to the full board? Yeah. I think That's a good point. We're going to have to do so we're going to have to put the um RMS ELA curriculum guides back on for April. Okay. Yeah. Good point. It must be you. I don't know. If it is, I It's me. Okay. >> Oh, it I I got it on the sound down, but it still dings. >> I know. Isn't that so funny? Well, I heard it vibrate. >> Yeah, my wife's like, "Where are you?" Okay. Any other things for future agenda items? All right. Hearing none, um this meeting will be adjourned at 9:46. It must have just switched cuz I wrote 9:46. 9:35 is fine. I don't