07/23/2025 Fiscal Committee Meeting

001And we'll start with uh the public input. Is there anybody here for public input? Don't look that way. So, we're going to go on to the budget and referendum planning. >> Okay. Thank you. So, last month we start we were talking about this um and we wanted to build on it this month. Um last month we were covering some of the things that um maybe went right or went wrong with the last operational referendum and then we talked quite a bit about the mill rate impact and why the mill rate impact was what it was for the last referendum and why it's likely to be different this time around. So at the end of that meeting um the committee asked for a couple of scenarios of potential mill rate impacts for different dollar amounts. So

002I have those today and we can go through them. And then also I just kind of like for a higher level view I thought it might be helpful to talk a little bit about how we got here right now especially we have a new committee member. We have a couple new people who are relatively new. Um, so to start off, I just want to say that we had an operating referendum before and it was a five-year non-recurring operating referendum that started in 2018-19 and then the last year was 2022 23 and in that year that final amount was $3.9 million. So after that, our revenue dropped by that amount naturally. And then the district has had declining enrollment kind of like gradually, but it kind of if it's trending downwards sometimes a little bit more

003than others for about at least 10 years. And because funding is directly tied to enrollment, that means our revenues have been going down too. Even in the years where we do see increases from the state, which doesn't always happen, even in those years, we still have had decreasing revenue. So that combined with the inflation that we all are experiencing and then certain costs really rising for the district that are hard to control or we have no control over at all. A larger and larger portion of the general fund budget is going to those things. So to cover special education costs to cover tuition cost or uh voucher costs and then um wages, employee benefits, all those sorts of things. So those two things combined really are how we've ended up in a deficit situation. It's

004costs are kind of steadily increasing. Revenues are staying flat or slightly decreasing each year. So in the last three years revenue has been pretty flat for for us overall. Um in 2223 we had about 52 million. In 23 24 53 and then again 53 for 2425. Um, and when we're projecting out in the model, it looks like revenue is going to stay pretty much the same, assuming that 325 per pupil stays on, which it is for right now, and that our enrollment continues to decline, and we're assuming costs are going to continue to increase. So, I think that that kind of sets us off for our discussion tonight of how why we are right here and why we have a deficit. I don't know if anybody has any questions about any of that so far.

005Um, so I did load a document in the administrative portion of board docs. If um you'd like to take a look at that, we can go through that today. To start off here, what I included at the top was just some basic information about the different funds. So when we're talking about fund 10, that's the general fund and that fund is inside the revenue limit. And then we have fund 38 which is non-referendum approved debt and the district does have some non-referendum approved debt that's also inside the revenue limit. And that total borrowing limit for the district is $1 million which we are already over. So we don't have that as like as a tool to use right now. And then fund 39 is referendum approved debt and um that debt is very close to

006being paid off for this district. um that will likely be completely paid off in this next year. So then when we're talking about the different kinds of op or referendums, there are two kinds. There's operational and there's capital. And last April, we asked for an operational referendum and that was we asked for a non-recurring question. So it had no end. Um and the one that was approved for the district before was five years long. And then a capital referendum is to issue debt or issue or buy bonds so that we can do specific projects. And so that was used to build the high school. They're two different things and they have to be asked as two different questions. And then school districts in Wisconsin can only ask two questions in a calendar year. So if

007we went if we asked for both in one election, that would be it for the year. And then I just included the upcoming election dates. 2025 is still in there, but um you can see going all the way out to 2030 what the potential election dates are for asking a referendum question and when the um resolution would need to be filed by. And that leads us to talking about some potential scenarios for an operational referendum. And the the big thing here is that the mill rate impacts that are here are estimates at this point. These are not final numbers and they for sure will change, but I think that it gets us in the ballpark for planning purposes. Um, so we were talking last last month about what would we need to get us to

008a point where no reductions would be needed, no further reductions. And so I ran a $6 million referendum and you can see that the mill rate impact on that is about $2. If we were to ask 4.5 million that mill impact is about $155 and we would likely still need to have some reductions at that point. And then if we were to ask three and a half million that mill impact would be about a$127 and we for sure would need to make some reductions at that amount. >> Can you talk a little bit about the the gravity of the like budget impact for that lower 10127 what approximately we would be cutting over the next two years uh if that were to pass even? Yes. So, we when we're looking at this and projecting out,

009we're thinking that we would likely need to cut about $4.5 million if the $ three.5 million passed. And that could be spread out. That wouldn't have to be one year, 4.5 million. But the longer you spread it out, the more impact it has on the fund balance. So, because we ran at a deficit last year, we ran at a deficit this year, we're projecting a deficit for next year. This referendum, if it were to pass, would not come on until the following year. So, we'd have three deficit years using some of the fund balance. So, it puts us in a different spot. Like, we would want to be making sure that we not only were close, like we wouldn't want to be running any deficits at all at that point. So, that's why the reduction

010level is higher. If it was the four and a half, we would need to reduce still, but it would likely be less. We could kind of see. And we would make the reductions in year one. and see what we would need to do in the following year to really get where we need to be. Um, the other thing I will say is what I would if we're going to go nonrecurring, if that's the way the board is going to go, in the last the last time that we did that, we graduated or we stepped up the amount. So, that referendum started at $2 million and ended at $3.9 million. And that would be something that we could do again. And I think that that would be a really good thing to do because it kind

011of levels the new rate out and it helps us plan for the future. So we can expect some increases in costs and we can hope that that is all covered and um we would need we would get where we need to be. Um so I guess could you clarify what that means exactly? Like you would first year get 2.5 million and then the next year you get 2.8 and then the last year you'd get 3 million. Is that what you mean? Like a step. >> Exactly. And it would be like right in the referendum question. It would be really clear and we would make sure when we were talking about it with the public that we were really clear about that. But it starts then the mill rate impact is lower in that first year.

012And even though it goes up in later years, other things are bringing it down. So often it kind of it levels out. >> Okay. Okay. >> More property value rises, right? um more properties come onto the tax roll, those kinds of things generally happen year-over-year. So that would help bring the mill rate down. We would be having the mill rate rise because our our need for revenue would have to continue because of increasing rates of >> So right now our mill rate is 599. >> That's right. That's what it was for 202425. And the the line here, the 8.36, does that show like where it was when we were under a referendum? >> That's the average for these years. So when we were under a referendum, it held steady at 8.98 for all those years

013until the last year when it dropped down to 731. >> And then that 6,000 right here would add $2 to the 2024 >> 6 million >> or well, no, at the top it Yeah, the six million. I'm sorry. >> This is weird. It gets kind of tough to project out because the $2 would actually go on in 2026 27, >> right? But so we don't know that no rate yet. Okay. >> But we have been trending downward. Like right now we're projecting out to be a little bit less again for 2526. >> So So you're saying less than 5.99? >> Yes. >> Not a lot. >> Projected rate. Not not >> right. But it would be like an increase of whatever it was based on your projections. Like let's say it went up to $6

014to put a referendum it would add an extra $2. That's >> okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Um and this 599 I know I've said this before, but the DPI has history going all the way back to the 80s and 599 is the lowest mill rate this district's ever had. Um and the overall the overall property tax levy though has not gone down a lot. So that doesn't necessarily mean people have seen their taxes go down, but now we're at a point where this debt is going to be paid off, the property tax levy will go down and people's taxes will go down. >> The current the one that we're just about to pay off, correct? Right. >> Can you clarify that for me on a financial guide? Um where when you say

015that they haven't necessarily seen their taxes go down, that's in relation to inflation. So, so that would be prior to inflation. The taxes would have kind of stayed the same. You know, there >> I wish I really when I say that, I'm only talking about the last few years because I would say probably if they've gone down quite a bit since the 80s. I mean, I when I looked back, the mill rate here was well over $12 back then >> and property values were certainly not what they are now, >> right? So, but and the budget was probably not what it is now. >> Right. Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Yeah. As total assessment goes up, a lot of times stability comes down. Right. Right. >> So, >> right. If assessment rates go up, right, you

016will see a decline in generally. >> Have you ever seen assessment rates come down? >> I guess it's happened. You go to the board and you fight for why it ended just that much. >> Yeah, you have to go and fight for it. That's what Yeah, >> it's the only time I've seen mine go up. >> I got a legal question here. >> Can we >> I'm not an attorney. >> I know you aren't an attorney. Maybe you can check with it. Can Can we >> uh just apply a referendum just at a mill rate and ask for a certain >> mill rate? We we have to ask for a certain dollar amount which translates to a mill rate. We share with them what we think the mill rate's going to be, >> right? And

017in the last referendum that we asked for, we said you will not pay a mill rate above this. And you can see we kept it steady except for the last year. The last year we basically didn't do the whole amount because um as a board we talked about the there's a new assessment that's happening from the city. The city needs extra taxes. They're going to take the full assessment. Can we give a little bit of a break? So we we backed off a little bit on that last year of the last referendum because we knew in future years we were going to go out anyway uh or need to go out anyway. So it gave them a little bit of a break because the city was going up. So another another thing to consider is

018that because the district spans so many other municipalities, the mill rate isn't consistent from the city miller rate to the right townships. Completely understand that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> But by far the vast majority of our students are from the city of Watertown, right? >> Correct. >> Has to be vast majority of them. >> Well, what townships are we dealing with? We're dealing with what? The town of EMTT, town of Shields, town of Watertown, >> part of climate >> part of >> over over by you. >> Shield shield conquer >> conquer >> and that's about it, right? >> There's 12 township. >> 12 townships. I can't think of all right, >> right? Parts of >> I look at the map, >> right? >> Yeah. Go ahead, Sam. >> So, we're talking about two things

019that are projected in into the future here. We're talking about a potential lowering of the mill rate just as is, and then we're also talking about um a a you could call it a perceived lowering of the mill rate because of the paying off of the debt, right? Not that the mill rate's actually lowering, but taxes will go down. So, do we have any idea what that would look like for taxes going down if we were to like translate that to a mill rate? Because >> yeah, we we will and I will once we kind of have a more of a direction. I will get firm numbers on that. I will say that the the debt right now is down to a point where the mill rate impact is not big. So, we have um

020fund 39 can carry a balance, but it can only be used for debt service. And so, in that last payment, we should apply whatever is in there. And we have like $700,000 in there. So, that combined with that final payment, the whole levy for fund 39 is probably going to be less than a million dollar. And so, that million dollars is what would give us a little bit of savings in the following year. And it's that's not a lot. It's not a lot. I suppose I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is a value amount where an ask would not result in an increase to the taxes that he didn't pay. >> Unfortunately, no, because we just are at a point where it's too it's too big, >> right? Um any of that ability to

021do so or try to position it so has already come and gone already. We we were trying to do that with the last several years, try to coordinate a mill rate decrease with with a referendum >> so that it would be more of a palatable u rate for for the community. So, one of our objectives that we'd like to see before we leave tonight is to take this information and create anywhere from three to five scenarios that Sarah and I can um cost out and work on and bring back to you. And then from those three to five scenarios, we can decide which ones do we want to say in September or August survey out to the public and say which of these would you support most and then garner that information to say here's

022how you know if if we're interested in asking for a referendum, here's what we're looking at doing, right? And then we can make sure people understand what that scenario means. um if if cuts come along with it, what kind of cuts are we talking about? Um you know, if there's a different if there's facility work that we're going to do, what kind of facility work? All those kinds of things. And so, you know, I'll I'll let you continue, Sarah. But that's really one of our objectives tonight is we need some direction >> because if we don't get that kind of direction like really soon, we will miss our window of being able to cost things, getting out to community talking, working with legal to get a ballot together, we will miss our April window. >>

023What do you need a year? >> Well, um, if you want to fund it for no cuts, >> no cuts, what do you need? >> We're going to need approximately six million a year. Right. I mean, we will have some natural cuts that happen along that that line that, you know, like that we do in every any any regular year, but we're not talking about drastic million and a half to a million dollar kind of cuts. We're we're talking about the kind of cuts you would make normally. If we had six million a year for the next five years, we could probably make that work >> to make sure the budget is balanced. And that might even let us like keep our fund balance at a good place as well. But just just like Jerry

024would say, I would piggy back on that. What we really what we need to start thinking about is what is the mill rate impact that you're comfortable with because that's important in deciding how much we would ask. And then also how long of a referendum that you would like to have, which I think we talked about some last year or last month and um we got we got some good feedback on that, but maybe we can move forward a little bit. And then I think the big question too is are we thinking >> any kind of capital >> operational or are we thinking operational and capital >> if operational >> that would only be operational >> right those numbers are only operational >> Sarah can go into talking with you about like if we wanted

025to do like maintenance only and phase one of maintenance for all of our buildings right all of them including this one including lead if we want to keep all of our buildings Right. >> Right. We can tell you what kind of a dollar amount that would be. Right. If you wanted to go into uh like the the the suggestion that you made to P about an addition to the high school for the middle school and then doing some consolidating. We can tell you approximately what that might be or look like. >> That would be useful. >> Yes. So, and I have really rough numbers on that. Those are from but they are still like I just want to make sure I keep saying that because I don't want anybody to think it's firm but it

026it's very roughly 19 cents per 10 million on a capital referendum. So if we were to do that tier one on all seven buildings that would be about 60 >> cent yeah approximately >> 60 to 65 cents. If we were to do maintenance on build some of the buildings plus a small addition it would be about 80 cents. So if we were looking at 80 cents plus three and a half million, we're at $2 to $210 roughly on the mill. >> Okay. So we've switched from a total 6 million a year to now we're switching to mill rate. Um >> that's that's because the question was operationally what dollars do you need? >> Right? >> I answered that. >> Right? >> That's still if we don't do anything with maintenance that still means we're deferring

027maintenance. We still >> deferring maintenance, right? We're we're still not doing roofs or, you know, other major uh fixes. We will do the regular fixes and cleaning that happen and like a toilet breaks, we have to fix the toilet. Those are operational maintenance dollars. We're not going to be doing the larger maintenance things. If we do just the six million operational ask, >> okay. So, so for um for the minimum maintenance the that you know not fixing toilets but the big maintenance that has to be done >> on the front end. >> How much is that? >> It would be about 60 to 65 cents, >> right? Or approximately $36 million, >> right? >> Are these numbers coming from the >> Yes, they they would be they would be in your facilities uh work. They

028would be the phase one options for each building. Total those up and that's the total amount. >> Okay. So, can I ask a question? Just because I was speaking to other board members that got capital referendums to pass in their area. Um and instead of passing like uh putting to the public one large operational referendum for all of these future plans, uh their board decided to tar their capital referendum where they had a long-term maintenance plan in place. The board and administration made a decision of what are we going to focus on on the first step? Let's take that to referendum. And then that was much easier to pass in their community than one huge capital referendum because then the community knew, oh no, okay, well, Webster's gonna get a new roof and we're going

029to replace the boiler here and this is specifically what this capital referendum for. And that community seemed more willing to buy in than this 20year plan that was presented to them from there. >> Um, >> that's right. And that's why we were talking with P and that's the work you guys are doing with P to come up with a 20-year plan, but then to say we want to tackle phase one, >> right? >> Yeah. >> If that's what you want to tackle. >> But I think she's talking about how you present it. Like everybody understands that they have to replace a water heater or replace >> but but keep in mind is 106 million, >> right? >> So all years. >> Yes. All years. Tier one is that there are 36 million, >> right? I'm

030just saying if we like let's say we decided to build another campus, but that included repairing multiple elementary schools that were going to stay open. Uh the first phase of that would be you'd send to the community, we need these funds specifically to upgrade the elementary schools. And we wouldn't even talk about extensive plans for the new building, right? Like that would not >> I think that's where the the >> and I don't know if we should do that. That's >> Can I add some clarity because you guys did make some decisions for P. >> Yes. >> And I want to I want to talk a little bit through those. I don't have a lot of detail, but I can tell you some of the planning that's happened since. >> Okay. Just to get you

031focused. >> You have the we're not going to do a thing, right? then you don't have to worry about it. We don't have to go any further. You just have to look at those operational numbers and we have to decide what we want to do operationally. >> Okay? >> You have a maintenance only option. That's about $36 million for phase one maintenance, but it keeps us in all of our buildings. And we fix all of our buildings, right? To the level of phase one. Not to the level of the whole 20-year plan, to the level of phase one. That's about 36 million. And it's how much per million? You said >> it's about 19 cents per 10 million. >> 19 cents per 10 million. And you said this one's going to cost us around >>

03265 cents, right? >> So So phase one is how like five years? >> Phase one will get uh Yeah. I I mean Yeah. We would get us out, you know, and then we would have to in in another five or five to 10 years, we would have to do phase two. >> Okay. Gotcha. >> Right. Uh then the third option that you asked for was you asked for um and you if we were going to uh do something you talked about putting an addition on at the middle school and doing some reconfiguration. So here's how that would look. There would be a small addition on the middle school. Okay. And it would be a two-floor addition approximately 20ish classrooms. Um and then um we would use a portion of the existing high school for one

033of the grade levels. But all three grade levels 6, seven, and 8 would go to the high school. It would become a 612 building. Okay. Then we would take the current middle school and we would turn that into a 35 building and Douglas and either Webster or Shir. And that's going to be really up to having more conversation about facilities and which one you would pick to hold on to would become a K2 building. So those would be preK2 buildings. >> Okay. >> So we would have two preK2 buildings, an intermediate center of a 35 and then a 612 building. Okay. And then the 6 through 8 part would be in its own section. It wouldn't be filtered amongst everybody. It would the middle school would be really an addition onto the existing high school.

034>> Okay. That would cost us around 40 to 45 million. This is on top of the 36 million to >> no because we would take some of the the 36 million from the buildings we would close and we would have to close Leap Lincoln this building and either Webster or Shurers depending on which one you would pick. >> Okay. >> Right. And those monies that would have phase$1 dollars in it we would put to the addition. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. which is why we would we would only have you know we would have more money in an addition but that puts the ESC up there at the high school and the middle school at the current high school site. >> Okay. And so the reasoning for this is that you we are m largely

035maintaining empty buildings right now. >> Well we have a lot of seats available right? I mean it's districtwide districtwide districtwide we have a a large number of seats available. So, at the high school, how many seats do you have open? >> I don't have the number on me, right? Do you have the sheet on you? I can find it, but I think it's somewhere like 500 and some seats available. >> That was in that report. Yeah. Was built for 1500. We were running right around a thousand. >> Yeah. And so, so we have approximately 500 and some seats available, but you know, when space is available, you fill it. >> So, you're >> so we would have to get more efficient about how we use the space again. So, so you're heating and cooling that

036space year round, >> right? >> And nobody's using it, >> right? There are there are some classrooms that sit empty, some classrooms that, you know, um have a few number of students in them versus, you know, uh 25 or whatever, you know, that kind of >> we we currently have 1,021 students in the high school and the max capacity per the documents were, 1472. >> Okay. I just have a spreadsheet. >> I don't have that with me, but >> is that all laid out? >> Yeah. So, right now, well, the target in the building for the documents that we received 1,178. >> So, like that's the target in the building based on that document. >> I'm going to bring that to you. You can just point that out and then I'm gonna what he's just

037said I will >> completely review. >> Yeah. So again, we we do have some space available, but we wouldn't be able to fit the whole middle school there. We we can crunch and and it would feel tight seventh and eighth grade in there. And if we don't pass a referendum, that's probably one of the options we'll have to think about need to find a way to get budget. And one of those ways is to close buildings. So, so we would probably have to consider that as an option. So, this conversation seems a bit convoluted to me. Um, because it seems like we've got to figure out what if the horse is in front um and what is first thing and and I understand the domino effect. I do and um I did read through the

038the capital the facilities thing and was fascinating uh to read that. So in your mind tier one for for maintenance. Okay. On a scale of 1 to 10, how important? >> Well, if you if you want me to run through the scenarios of of what I think is most beneficial from, you know, uh running a school district standpoint, the first and most important thing is operational dollars. >> Absolutely. But but my question that that I have for you is I could operate in a lot of different budgets. If you want to continue operating exactly how we are programs that we have, the buildings that we have, I need $6 million more a year to do that. >> What? But the buildings have mechan maintenance issues that I don't know. I don't know. >> That's true.

039But you asked me what is first. Well, no. >> First is we got to keep the doors open and decide what leveling to me. That's a given, >> right? >> Okay. That just >> then yes, I believe like we need to get started on our maintenance and that would be that phase one maintenance. The question that I had for the board a year ago and the question that I have for you guys today again is do we want to do maintenance and keep all of our buildings open? Because if we do, we're looking at keeping all of our buildings open, $6 million plus first level of maintenance, 65. We would be at $2.65 to do first level of maintenance and keep all of our buildings open. Or what we do is we decide to change

040our footprint a little bit, maybe change a little bit of our programming. will get more efficient, but that brings that mill rate down, right? Um to do that. If if we don't change our footprint, uh then uh we we know what that's going to cost us. If we change our footprint, we can take some of those maintenance dollars that would have gone into other buildings and we can use that for a small addition if we need to or even um you know even if we don't do a small addition like I said we could put seventh and eighth grade at the high school it be tight but let's say you don't do the addition well then you could do more maintenance if you wanted to or just stay with phase one maintenance but you have

041to tell us what level of cuts to programming that you want to more maintenance dollars or dollars to change our footprint or if you think it's available to us and you think the community will support it, right? Mine would be let's do the $6 million a year operating that we need and if people are willing to to back us, let's get the phase one maintenance needs. But that's the largest referendum that we would have and that would be a $2.65 mill rate change. Now, that's a thousand. >> That's per thousand, >> right? Right. Okay. >> Right. Right. >> But that would keep us in our buildings and it would it would get us by uh for five years. A matter of fact, those fixes that we would do, some of those fixes would be for

04220 years, right? Uh because, you know, if you're putting in a new heating uh unit or whatever else, that's got a life expectancy, right? Um but it would it would get us operationally up five years and we wouldn't have to change any kind of programming. We wouldn't have to close any buildings, right? um we would have more space become available in those buildings. It would, you know, more elbow room and everything else. Um and we would start to see after five years more empty space, but at that point in time, people then could decide whether or not we want to start closing buildings because they really are getting to be empty >> or or or we've reversed the trend and we've got more students coming in, >> right? I mean, that that could be too.

043I mean, >> ideally ideally that would happen. The birth rates right now don't show that not in the five year I'm talking in a 10 year trend maybe I'm talking qualitywise demandwise >> where people want to start opening >> regardless of birth rates >> if we if if we can reverse the trend >> we can have people coming in not going out right has water ever had a year where we had more my had a year where we had more students coming in on open enrollment than going out >> I would like to change I I agree. I agree. I agree. >> Um I'm curious um Jared when you talk about um the schools. So just and I don't mean to speak continuously retrospectively. Clothing conquered was not fun. Okay. That school was very important

044to that community. >> Closing any school is never fun. >> Well, of course it is. >> It's not. Let's put it that way. It's not. >> But it was fiscally responsible board action. And we we really had no choice. What we weren't in a budget crunch like this, but we were congre is that school is leap important to Lebanon. I know they that's their school and they I have people who work at Lincoln. I don't want to close Lincoln. Lincoln's got what 150 160 students in it. at at some point whether it's now or 5 years down the road I don't see us being able to maintain all of these elementary schools. >> So my question is one question is cost of construction is not going to go down. >> No, it'll keep going up.

045So if if you have to do an addition to the high school to make this work, you know, um to move ESD over there, to move uh most of RMS over there and all of that, then you're talking uh construction costs that are are going to be sizable. I know try to keep within the budget we're projecting here. >> And then we have to project what savings with those changes. >> Exactly. Then the most I don't speak for everybody but the most practical change to save money that I saw that would be amendable to the community was closing RMS entirely shutting down and building an addition on the high school and moving RMS like you picking it up and moving it to the new high school addition. I I think I I I like where

046you're going. Well, however, I think I think what you might be missing is the the uh the maintenance needs for the remainder of buildings in the district. >> Oh, I'm not missing it. >> Okay. >> She's just saying maybe that >> is if you know the community. Yeah, it's hard to close a school. It's horrendous to close a school, but I asked around like, well, what about this school? What do you know? and RMS does has the least resistance in the community to closing for saving money. Uh the the elementary schools are like a hard stop. Do not close our elementary schools, right? And this is not my opinion. These are the opinions of people I I I have just gathered from. I'll I'll, you know, nab somebody and say, "Hey, what do you think

047about this?" Right? Um and and and so go ahead. No, I I'm listening to you. I just want I just want to respond with you. >> Yeah. But um I I think that we have to look at what the community feels is important as well because these are big big awful changes that we're talking about. And the community needs to be comfortable with this to some degree or at least understand, you know, everybody understands a limited budget and you have to cut here. >> That's why this Sarah and I are suggesting that we come up with maybe three year or so scen three or so solid scenarios between now and September >> and we could that we could survey people in the community and say here's the three different scenarios here's what they mean you

048know this is what it would look like which of these would you support most yes it's not a vote but which which avenue should we be going down >> right >> and that scenario those scenarios would include how we look at um an addition to the high school or closing a school or doing away with RMS and >> Right. >> But but we we need to have those decisions done relatively quickly in the next couple of months because if we if if what happens like last year um what happened is th those discussions started fading into October and November and then people started getting confused about buildings closing. What does the real referendum mean? And that that was part of what hurt us. >> I think that was all of what hurt us. >> Well,

049I mean there there was a good part of that, right? That that that was distracting to the question. We need to be really clear and we need to be really clear. Um certainly by the end of September and early October and then be done and then write questions up and then put them on the ballot. >> Yeah. And I understand RMS is not done with their their task of of costing that out, but I would also like to be able to to share, okay, say we close RMS and make an addition to the high school. What does that savings look like, you know, and to be able to pres present that and say we're saying saving this much per year by doing this? >> And here here's the thing. We would have to say something

050like that. This is approximately how much per year. >> Yeah. Because when you start getting into that situation about how good of a decision that this is over the long haul, I I have to ask you like how many years do you care about? 10 years, 20 years. And then I have to say, well, average rate of inflation, average cost, you know, those >> whatever sound whatever is the most understandable. >> But but what what I what I do know is no I' I've done this enough. No addition will be a smaller cost upfront, >> right, >> than closing a building. >> But but you you do have >> you do get some efficiencies, but it will take 20 years to pay back those efficiencies. >> It it depends. It depends on your rate, >>

051maybe 30 years, >> but we need to be calculating the the the ROI, >> right? >> Isn't part of that though involved is I don't in fact I'm not sure. didn't conquer get turned back over to the community and they repurposed that as a community center and I don't know I don't remember if the district gave it to them if they paid a low dollar amount but you get you get empty buildings you got to you still got costs involved in maintaining empty buildings you just don't they don't >> exactly >> it would be nice if they just went away but they don't >> and there's a lot of >> I don't know it's still this way but previously Julian the plan was that if we did leave those buildings the district would actually demolish

052them that's an arrangement they made the city so that it didn't, you know, it's not like an eyesore, right? Right. I don't know if that's >> we would we would try first to uh sell them or repurpose them like that. >> Okay. >> Um and then after a period of time, we would raise them so that they don't become blight. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Uh and we had that dollar amount figured in to uh any costings that you saw. >> Okay. >> To the public. Right. But certainly we would try to sell them first. I mean we wouldn't just raise them and say okay here's the land cost. We would try to sell the building. There might be some people out there who want that. There's a lot of places out there who like

053repurpose a school building to become apartments or other things. You know >> Jefferson even has schools apartments that daycare centers other I mean I I've sold a number of school properties already. Uh, and um, it does take time, but sometimes there's good buyers out there. You know, church bought one. You know, I was going to say um, that Riverside isn't probably the worst shape building that we have right now. >> Well, that's convenient. >> Yeah. as well as the fact that it happens to have a pool. And Pure Ray was mentioning that it would cost probably between 20 and 30 million just to um you know build a pool. Yeah. If we if we left that and need we still need a pool. We need a lap swim pool, right? And um I know that

054the new Y's coming in, but they only have two lanes and it's heated, so you don't have a competition lap swim pool unless we decide not to have swimming, you know, but I think that that's something that's in this town is a a pretty big uh you know, thing that people support, but >> exactly. >> I don't know. I mean, I'm not in the swimming world, but >> you have to make the case that those types of programs, if we decide that we want to eliminate them, um are justifiable. >> Well, the taxpayers would would have to be presented with this is the cost. Is it worth it? Here you go. >> Yeah. And and our pool's in relatively good shape. I think we have, you know, 30 to 40 years life expectancy still left

055in it because it was really done redone pretty well, you know. Um, and um I also know this Barton Benson from the Benson Found family foundation um who you know Benson Park is named after and so his uncle helped put together the money for that pool and he would continue to help support it in whatever fashion he if we needed it. And I'm like, we don't need it right now, but thank you for that offer, >> you know. But he that that's something dear to his heart, too. >> Not to say that we have to keep it because of that, but but if there's a resource to help continue funding there, that would be a resource for us. >> Sure. >> I know that there's just ample discussion that the when P was here about

056that maybe the middle school wasn't the best learning environment because the lack of windows and data is coming out about >> Yep. Can we we we are having them price out windows for us. >> Okay. Okay. >> So that that's one of the things we heard from you guys and I asked them I said if if we're going to hold on to that building we want to know like is there a way to put more light in and if so what would it cost us? >> Okay. >> So they they are working on costing that right now. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. >> I'm not saying we have to do it. I'm just saying they're costing it right. I mean like >> a >> well I think RMS is one of the most unique

057but we have but I to be honest with you um through the years that I've lived here swimming the swim team has been a big pretty big deal for this community and we've done pretty well in swimming. Um I know that it is popular with community and I think you're right on the why. I don't think it's going to accommodate um some of the things that the size pool that we have at at that. And I think that's one of the reasons you were talking about turning RMS into a 3 through5 building, right? So that the pool would be still part of the package. >> Yep. And we would we would work with our FIAD team as well as Park and Rock to continue swimming lessons. We would just put swimming lessons instead of at

058the middle school level at an elementary level, right? Which is actually a more more of a benefit. teach kids to swim earlier in life. >> Um, >> girls aren't the >> there's there's a lot of things that there's a lot of things that can come of that from a positive standpoint. But >> I do agree with Lori that that and and this is what's so confusing about this conversation because it's got to land somewhere. We've got to land this plane >> and um but the community needs some information and I think you're right. We need to give some scenarios. Question is what scenarios do we want to give? >> So if you can narrow us a little bit more, Sarah, go ahead. I was just going to say to get it back to this, the

059reason that I put this up here is because each one of these comes with kind of an implication about facilities. If if we're going to go for six million, then potentially we're not making big changes with any buildings. If we decide to go with three and a half, whether we ask that question in April at the same time or later, it's likely going to mean reducing buildings, right? Is that fair to say? >> It would be reducing buildings. Yes. >> Yes. And so I think that's why we were talking about both tonight. Not that we'd have to decide right now, but it's like however we decide to proceed with operations, it comes with a facility's decision to one way or another. >> Go ahead. I was going to say that like um regardless of the

060six million, there's still that eminent um capital maintenance need that may drive us to have to close buildings for the sole purpose of having to maintain other buildings. You know, it just it's a difficult situation. I >> just this is a this is a related comment, but it is an observation. I was I was very favorably impressed with what the school district has done with schools as old as Lincoln and um and and out there in Lebanon and even you know Shers and Douglas and and Webster. Douglas being our newest elementary school. But I was very impressed with the positive comments that the group that put that analysis together that spoke very well of our maintenance people >> that we've been able to keep these buildings. >> I mean >> yeah they are they are

061really doing a good job of extending as much life as they can. >> Yeah. So kudos to them. But I was concerned um oh let me clarify something have you clarify something. when we were out of code in some of these older buildings, the only reason we can stay out of code is because something hasn't changed and we're grandfathered in under a previous code, right? >> So, the minute we do something that triggers that we go out of that grandfather protection, then we have to make the changes. That would be >> it's a percentage. >> We did talk about that too, like maybe trying to stay under that percentage if possible. Um, yeah, we we're definitely thinking about that NP too. So you want you want to tonight you want to leave. >> I want

062to hear from you as a collective group. What you you you I think you know the the breath and width of the issues. I want to know what direction like what three to five scenarios do you want us to really start working on and not bring kind of numbers to but bring some really solid numbers back to you and and maybe even drawings if there's additions or or even if it's maintenance plans what is what does that money get us right uh you know uh so that so that you you can then take the next step which is to refine that a little bit more and then decide what we want to put out to our public as a survey maybe, you know, and then go from there to a referendum question. >> Well, I

063think one of the first thing is are we committed to to doing a referendum of any sort, >> right? That's the first question. I was I was going to say that I would first of all like to uh in a in a very specific way because I think this is aside from the I guess you could call it cultural discussions that were going on last year. The number one thing I heard was people said I'm not going to vote for something when I don't know where the money's going. So, I would want to see very specifically here is every single thing and I we we've talked about this some I've over over recent months, but here is every single thing that we would be paying for by passing a referendum. And and I think that

064it's important to phrase it that way because I think we are going to have to cut or we are going to have to do this if a referendum doesn't pass is less >> I I think I need to I I think I need to flip that just a little bit. Gets the same job done. Mhm. >> It's not what are we paying for if it passes. >> It's going to be what are we going to have to do without if it doesn't pass. >> Well, and that's exactly what I'm saying. So, that's how the messaging has been for the past year. And I don't No, no offense. I'm not saying this as a knock on you or anyone else. I don't think that that messaging has proven to be effective. >> That's because we weren't

065specific enough with what we're going to do without. >> Well, well, no. And we offer alternatives. You always tell people what they can do. You don't just tell people what they can't do. >> I know, but the can do is a simple statement. If you pass this referendum, you have what we have right now. >> It will continue to pay for what we have. >> The one option. Yes. We've been here today. >> People don't know what we have. Jared, >> so I think I think framing it like currently we cannot I understand if I if I pay my Netflix subscription, I will continue to have Netflix next month. But I don't think that that's a tangible way of communicating it. I I think that it's more tangible to say here is what Netflix offers

066you. If if you pay $15.99, I understand you already have Netflix, but if you pay $15.99, you will get this many shows, this many movies, access to this live television programming if if you if you are going to make that comparison. So I think it's more useful to say if if you the taxpayer agree to this amount of money, this is what you will have. This many teacher jobs, this many program offerings, this sort of extracurricular activity. I think that if it's phrased that way, that does make a difference. I totally get what you're saying. I think that's coming from a very logical place the way that you're putting it. But I think that there's an element in communication where when you're communicating it's both logical and it is intuitive. And I think that there's

067an intuitive element that I'm trying to discuss that I'm trying to bring in. >> Would it be effective uh to say you know just that uh if if we pass this referendum right we will get to hold on to our and then just list off our facts. this many teachers, these many programs, right? Uh these many credits for graduation, whatever. And then we say, and if this doesn't happen, we will lose this many of those teachers. We will >> because >> perfect I think >> seeing both sides of that coin >> because I don't want them to think if they don't pass the referendum, we close down, >> right? >> Because that's not going to happen. What we do is we shrink our programming. We shrink our footprint. We >> And I think they would

068like to see you have a plan for exactly what that shrinking and cutting looks like. I think I like I mean and I'm speaking partly from my own perspective, but I'm speaking from the perspective like you said, Lori, of the people that I've spoken with who have communicated to me. Um, which is I think one of the main blind spots that we have had is who are the people who don't like who don't support the who don't support a referendum. They don't typically show up to referendum decisions. I like that because that works into our our survey strategy that we're talking about because if we if we do that middle one, Sarah, can you bring that kind of up here a little bit? Um to talk about >> uh you know that that mill right

069in the middle that's a$155, right? Something like that that we have on there. >> Yeah. >> Um it and that's 4.5 million, right? We know that that is going to come with some cuts and probably some change to our footprint, >> right? We won't have to close a lot of schools, but we may have to close one, >> right? >> We can we can still use that strategy to say, listen, uh we're going to ask for this amount for operating um but it's going to come with these. >> The first question is we ask this much for operating which is everything. >> Yeah. >> Right. which comes with like zero zero cuts if we pass it, >> right? Um and if it doesn't pass, right? Um these are like if nothing passes, this is the

070end result over here, >> right? But if it passes, we get all we keep all these things. No cuts. >> Yeah. >> If this if you choose this line, just want you to know if it passes, it comes with these cuts. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then if you choose >> I think and I think you lay it out like that but you lay it out again. I think it helps laying it out with let's say these three options and a zero option. Um I think that that helps communicate that out. Additionally um Oh actually no no I'm sorry because we're on this I'll keep on this. There's another thing that I'd like to mention that I think plays into it. But I do yes I see where you're coming from there. just as far

071as that communication goes, I think that's great. But I think that maintaining um a positive, not emotionally positive, but a positive like sentence formulation is really key there. So saying this is how many this is what you this is what is being paid for with that money. This is what you are buying with that money. It's not if you don't give us it. I think the way that it comes across again, not intentionally, I think it comes across like you're holding someone ransom. I think when you say if you don't give us se $6 million, it sounds if I say if you don't give me $6 million I'm going to fire 40 teachers, that's not that's not a winning strategy for talking to people because that's not exactly what the situation is. I don't think

072it's a very fair communication of it. And although that's not the intention, that's kind of how it comes across. >> It's going to come across that way how however we say it. And you know, I try to say it with as much positivity as possible, but when people ask me, they say, "Well, what does that mean?" I say, "Well, it means 60 to 80 fewer uh not just teachers, but fewer staff members." >> But you give people the options. >> They're like, >> "Yeah, >> well that's, you know, that's not a positive thing, no matter how you say it." >> This is the way that I've always thought about the referendum. Okay. Just purely on when we're looking at the numbers, when we're looking at the when we're looking at the facts of the referendum.

073The way that I've looked at it is the school the the normal course of events with how things are structured is that these things will be cut. The referendum is not a necessity. The referendum is an opportunity for the community to say, well, while we understand that that's the normal progression, we will choose to maintain some of those things. So, I don't think that the rep I don't Does that make sense? What I'm saying right there? it. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think that I think that is not how people have received it at least. And I think that that's the I think that's the communication that really needs to go out is hey listen these are the cuts that these these these are the changes that will happen. If you would like to if

074you would like to see this many positions or this many programs, this is how much we will we'll offer it to you for this much. But that's all that we have, right? Because it's not a matter of we're holding on to it and we're choosing to do it. It's just a matter of simple math. >> It is about messaging. I almost prefer that instead of messaging out this is this is what you're getting for your money type of thing. that we message out. This is this is how the community benefits from what we do, >> right? >> And I and I honestly think we can hit whatever messaging piece, right? We can hit that when we need to. Today, I need to focus you on we need to leave this meeting with three to five

075scenarios that you guys are comfortable with us at least costing out just rough draft one. We can throw them out the window and two weeks later come up with another one, right? It'll be more work, but we can't continue to do that because if we do, we're going to be in trouble. >> You're just looking for three to five scenarios for the operational referendum or for both? I'm just wondering >> from three to five referenda scenario that may include operation or may include operation and capital or may only include capital and I don't know what we're going to do. But we're going to have to um make some value choices about what we can offer if we only do a capital referendum and we don't do an operating referendum. >> Okay. >> And those value

076choices are going to come in in what looks like less offerings. >> So I'll start. >> Does Am I starting to get what you're saying? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Does it sound better? >> I'll get the ball rolling. Right. >> I'm trying. So, so um for an operational ref referendum only option 6 million per year with no maintenance. 6 million per year. That's the basic. That is the number one option. That's the absolute minimum that we need. 6 million no big cuts. Cuts but no big cuts. >> Yeah. >> For an option. the the cuts will be like the the general attrition type cuts like I if if um our class sizes, you know, to stay within our class size policy, right? And we have a let's say an elementary teacher position that retires, we

077look at our numbers and we go, we can do without that position. That'll be fine. >> Yeah. >> That's the kind of cuts I'm talking about. >> Good old budgeting, >> right? Good old budgeting, >> right? So, so not that this is the end all, but I think we have to start somewhere. And I I'd like to start with a an operational referendum for $6 million with no maintenance. >> Are you all in support of that being one of the scenarios we run >> for for communicating out to the public or at least for having for us to determine >> for them to get numbers >> for that for us to get more solid numbers on? Are you okay for that to be a scenario? A $6 million. How many year? >> Yeah. How many

078years? >> I think we said five to seven. I don't remember where we landed. >> Okay. So, uh, how many years, people? How many year asks do you want to ask our public for? >> I did the heavy lifting. Did somebody else >> How long was the most recent one that passed? >> Five. >> I would go for five. that seems to be a limit that the the constituents can handle, you know, and when when you look at the mill rate, you know, we we survived all that. So, >> okay, five five days. >> Option two, >> I would I would Well, first of all, I want to know, do all of you support that? Because if you if you all don't support it, even at this stage, we're going to have a problem. Because

079part of another part of the problem that we got to is once we uh as a board, we really understood what was what the real ask was. We had some board members who were like, I'm not so comfortable with that anymore, right? because they started getting feedback from their constituents and and I want to know like at this stage if if we don't have 100% support for it are you are you going to get there? I mean I don't want to waste time. >> When we're talking about when we're talking about numbers I am absolutely okay with getting all sorts of numbers. So that's a perfectly acceptable option to receive information on for me. >> Okay. at the end of the day that with what you're addressing, I think that the ultimate necessity is you

080need to have some kind of general community support indicated before you ask. >> But but I need to know that you're comfortable even surveying that out once we get solid numbers. >> I mean, doing it with doing it with these other options as you're asking for is perfect. So, I'm Yeah, I'm I I like having the wrench. So, six 65 no maintenance is good by me. Okay, >> Julian, how do you feel about that? >> Well, I first first I want to clarify. We're going to give three, you know, three to five options and then uh we're going to have a final. >> You're not going to go out with all five options to the community right away. That would be all approved. That would need full board approval to do that, right? No, we're

081just doing costing. Bring it back. >> We're going to do costing. We'll probably do some narrowing. >> Okay. And then what we'll ask you is which ones do you feel comfortable board putting out to survey. >> Okay, >> that will come that will come with a resolution to survey our community. Right on these three questions, right, >> Julian, how do you feel about that? >> I'm okay with that. >> Okay. >> You proposed it and I'm okay with it. That's one option. >> Okay. >> All right. We got an option. >> He's going against he's going amongst the committee. All right. >> Thank you, Carl. And I I think I I think I would like to see one option of the six million operational and and I don't know how to phrase this. I would

082like to know if we could do some prior further prioritizing within the tier one maintenance. >> Yes, that was that was the second thing that she listed at 65 cents. I >> I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Okay. You're you're saying uh the 6 million operational plus >> a capital but not the full phase one maintenance >> so that we looked at it and said okay this is what >> so we could give you a number too I would say like if you say we would want a total mill rate of x we can back into that number with >> whatever you're looking >> okay that's six million what's the mill rate on that >> well we're looking right now at about $2 >> $2 >> yes >> all right so so then we're

083looking at a mill rate if you go with Julian if you go with yours then we're looking at a mill rate of 265 >> no because I asked for >> if she paired it down maybe maybe 15 million of that right >> oh I see >> so so it would be $230 or $2.35 >> I see okay >> and let's just keep in mind that Sarah says and I realize Sarah this is not >> we're not holding you to an accurate crystal ball okay but that you suspect the mill rate's going to go down a little bit yes so that means it's going to be something under 5.99, right? So, we're building off that. So, so Carl, even if we >> I'm not comfortable with 265 off the bat total on that because it let's

084let's say it settles at 5.8. Then we're pushing at 2.65. We're coming right we're getting into that higher range up there that might make people more uncomfortable. But if we can go through and prioritize the tier one projects and say, "All right, our maintenance people say this, this, this, this, and this has to be done in order to preserve these buildings, okay? And do whatever is to make them safe." And by the way, when you talk about making a building safe, boy, that's a winning that's a winning message to parent. >> Okay? If they get the idea that the building is anyway is in any way unsafe, that's losing. But we can win on safety. So that's what I'd like to say. Maybe we look at 15 to 18 million, half of what they're saying

085that would be expended if we did all of tier one. But we would we would gain some ground and I would still go for five years because I think that's a reasonable look. I I think the thing we don't want to do is to come back too frequently on these referenda. Well, >> exactly. >> You can live with a five-year one, but these school districts, and I've watched them for years in another capacity. Year after year after year, they're coming back to the people asking for more money and and the people say, "Yeah, there's there's got to be an end here." But if you space them out, I believe, and we message right, I think we can get a winning combination here. So, that would be my recommendation. >> So, you're going for half. I'm

086going for six million the operation or six million on the operational side with half of but let's call it half of the tier one capital um expenses >> which is 36 million. Right. Right. So you're going for 18 uh the six 6 million plus 18 million on the capital side. >> Right. Which would if if the math is right um which would give us like about a two $2.33 mill rate increase. Correct. >> Yeah. >> Lori, how do you feel about that? >> I feel just fine. >> All right, let's That's your second That's your second scenario. >> And I just can I ask a clarifying question? The operational referendum wouldn't be five years, right? Or operational, but the capital? >> No, the capital would much be much longer, right? >> Probably 20 years. >>

087Yeah. And and honestly, I think we should, you know, try to run all of them at 20 year just so we know. That's just pretty much standard, >> right? On the capital side. >> Yeah. Yeah, that would make sense. >> Yeah, the operational still at five years, >> right? >> Okay. >> Can I throw out a third scenario? >> Go ahead. >> Love to hear from you. >> Um uh the 6 million uh referendum and I guess maybe I should throw out two scenarios, but the six this would be maybe worst case. But before we go there, I mean, we started with 9 million saying that we had a shortfall of 9 million. We corrected we we reduced by 1 million and I'm still confused as to where the other two million came from where

088that's going to be made up if we're not making uh cuts, >> you know, to come down to that 6 million. >> Yeah, we were helped out a little bit by the state budget. Okay. >> Right. Um and uh we're going to try to be lean. >> Okay. >> And we have made reductions now two years in a row. >> Right. We've made reductions two years in a row. That's helped our scenarios a little bit more from where we started. Right. >> So So we we we think that we can we can survive, you know, survive with minimal cuts. If we have five years going out, >> Craig, you might also be confused about when I when I message out four and a half and four and a half over the next two years of

089cuts, >> that's assuming no more revenue coming in, which means we're going to be going out of our fund balance for and so we have to get more aggressive with our cuts to get us out of, you know, to get us out six more years, right, to do an ask. >> Okay. >> So, uh, we would be making about $9 million worth of cuts. It will still only get us out five, six years. We'll have to do an ask again. >> I got you. I got So, so don't don't think that those scenarios are always equivalent. >> Well, we got to figure in inflation, all that stuff, too. >> Yeah. >> Um, okay. So scenario the probably maybe worst case scenario might be 6 million uh operational referendum uh with a tentative uh you know

090assuming that that passes then the following opportunity to ask for a capital referendum but you have to message it so that you so that the community is very uh aware of the strategy that hey listen there's there's two needs here. If you pass the operational referendum, expect that there's going to be a capital referendum as part of the solution. You know, but that that capital referendum being the um let's just say 45 million maintenance plus with with the closure of four buildings, uh ESC being one of them. and three other um three other buildings. >> So, I have a question. Um if you closed this ESC today and moved it to some place with open space like the high school, would it be possible to do that and save money? >> Um we couldn't just

091do that. The reason I say that is when you're when you're like when I said we can fit the seventh and eighth grader at the high school, we can because you're swapping a classroom space for a classroom space, not a classroom space divided up into three or four offices. >> So, it would still cost to move the SE. It would it would cost a lot of money because you're converting basically big open classroom spaces into a smaller partitioned off uh um office space. So really the most efficient way to move us is to do an addition onto the building that is designed for the office space we need. >> Okay, that makes sense. Thank you. Um, or another option would be to move into some office spaces in town that are already office spaces and

092then make sure that we have enough of those. Either way, the the one thing that continues to hold us back is um our our downstairs area. And after this meeting, I'd love to take you downstairs on a tour, right? No business will happen, but you will just take a look at what we have down there, right? That is basically also space we have to replace. We've got dry good storage down there. We've got a whole a whole wood shop, other things. Just you need to understand what's downstairs because it's not just replacing office space upstairs here. >> And then and uh e campus, >> right? >> Come here to Yeah. And and you know, most people don't realize what's beyond this wall here, but beyond this wall is a school, like a small ecampus school,

093right? >> We actually have kids come in and uh you know, even though it's ecampus, sometimes they're face to face, they're coming in and they're using that space, right? uh and sometimes they use this space to do some education in. So, >> but but with that scenario, it would also include the liquidation of those four properties. >> Yes. >> I guess what what are the four properties? >> Well, that I mean I'm I'm asking administration then at that point to come forward with with >> the four properties >> four which four properties but the ESC being one of them, >> right? And I can tell you uh in that scenario, three for sure uh would be uh Leap, Lincoln, and this building. When we start doing costing scenarios for either Webster or Shurers, Webster has

094many more maintenance fixes and larger space. Shers has less space, but is much more well-maintained and has had more money been put into it recently and has more longevity on those fixes that were put into it. So you guys would have to tell me which one of those two makes more sense. We can do the dollars and cents of it, but really when we do, we're kind of like, you decide. >> I know which property is more valuable. >> So Craig, you said a 40 million. >> Are you saying for sale or to keep >> No, for sale. >> Exactly. >> Based on which one. >> So you're proposing an option. Yeah, that's that that's that option and and I you know it may be a combination of what Julian is talking about where you

095you tackle a portion of the tier one uh capital maintenance needs that are that you know that we but also re realizing that by um eliminating four um buildings from that equation there's going to be a a potential savings to that um maintenance need, but yet you're still you're still um utilizing that uh capital capital um improvement part of things to consolidate to perhaps maybe the high school, add an addition to the high school for middle school and or ESC operations um as a solution and maybe even um some updates the middle school. I don't know what it >> So, specifically, what's your proposal? >> Specifically, the proposal would be um >> 6 million operational referendum >> and $45 million >> capital improvement referendum with the closure of four buildings including the ESC. And the

096$45 million capital improvement would be for an addition on the high school. >> If the administration could >> we would have to come up with here's the best plan to use that 45 million. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. There you go. There you got another one. >> So not necessarily closing four buildings, just the best plan for that $45 million operational referendum. >> his plan also came with the closure, right? >> And I think we have to put something like that out there. Yeah, because because >> obviously we have uh a lot of maintenance that is eminent within those buildings. It's up to, you know, I'm hoping that the administration comes forward with, you know, a plan that includes perhaps the the largest uh burden on the district as far as the maintenance to do within

097proposal board. Which ones? That's that's why we talk about um the the order that I was talking to you in. It's not only the burden of maintenance, but the return on investment and the cost per student. >> Right. The cost maintaining an empty classroom or an empty space. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, the one thing I will say, we have three scenarios. All three of these scenarios are well over $2 on the mill right now. So, we might want to think about something that would be less. Well, that I would say that the the fourth scenario I would propose would be >> Oh, wait, wait, >> hold it, hold it. >> Because I'm coming from like a totally opposite side of the aisle philosophically than Craig on this. And I I'd like to throw one

098out that's kind of on the opposite end. Although I I mean I appreciate what you're saying. I love like I said, I want I would like a lot of scenarios quite frankly. >> Sure. >> Um >> can I before you propose that, I just want to clarify because I'm taking notes. The the first one is right at $2, right? Because Lori, you recommended just doing the Okay. Okay. I just want to make sure my notes were correct. Right. Okay. Go ahead. >> Go ahead, Sam. >> Um, so besides the not doing anything option and what that looks like and like very specific item options on that, I would like to see something even lower than 3.5. I'd like to see 2.5 and the minimal footprint impact that that the footprint alteration that that has. >>

099What do you mean by 2.5? >> 2.5 million. referendum question asked. So 3.5 is that 1.27 >> that'd be an operational >> for just for an operational >> how many years >> uh five five years I mean and I would also like to see three years I I think you know >> the years really it's important once we get to the question but for costing it doesn't matter. Yeah. And the reason that I say that is because I think even when people were talking to me because at the beginning there was a conception that it was 5 years. I know I was under that impression but I think that there was generally an impression of five years and then people were like wait is there not a sunset clause even when it was five when

100people had this understanding of five people were still a little bit apprehensive because I think when you're in a time such as this things are uncertain. Five years is a long way off. Think about five years ago was 2020. Think about how much has happened. That's crazy. I think people think five years and they're like that's like a life of business. >> So three. >> Yeah. And like I say for the costing like it will only be the first year. >> One thing I will say too just to go along with that is we can give you like what would the reductions need to be initially but when you're talking about two and a half and we're already running deficits that large or larger we would be making reductions every year. >> Okay. >> To

101stay within the budget. >> I just want to make that. >> I understand. Okay. We understand that. So you want a $2.5 million operational referendum for three years. >> Three. For three years, right? Okay. So that's what that's the what scenario? Third or fourth? That's four. >> That's four. >> All right. Let's have one more. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. Whatever scenario this would be would be um what I had mentioned in scenario three. Um but acknowledging that there may be a need to cut um more aggressively because if you're closing more buildings, you know, theoretically, you know, there's going to be some downsizing needed. Um, and I would say then go with the uh $4.5 million operational referendum and that might make it a little bit more of a palatable option that for u

102a capital improvement referendum close to roughly close to $2 mill. Did I follow that right? You you you're suggesting like a $4.5 million operating referendum, >> right? >> Then the a maintenance referendum that would get us up to whatever $2 would bring >> close. Yeah. Close. >> So go with a $2 mill rate impact. >> Yeah. >> A $4 million operational and then whatever is the difference used towards maintenance >> or or or reconfiguring or whatever it is. >> Correct. Okay. something of that nature. Does that make sense to you, sir? >> I think it does. So, we're looking to get to about a $2 note rate, the two combined >> between the two scenario >> between operational and Yeah. Okay. >> And the cuts that would be be associated operational from 62. >> So

103then if we're looking at something like that, Craig, what I would throw out uh is this. If we if we look at a $2 combined miller rate, I'll we'll put one together that's operational and maintenance only, and we'll put together one that's operational and a change of footprint. >> There you go. >> Okay. But but those will be a $2 impact. That sound good? >> Yep. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, that's good. >> We we we agree. >> I'm I'm good with it, >> Lori. I'm good. >> Okay. Very good. >> Just so we're all in agreement here. and a capital referendum to bring the mill rate to $2. >> Does that satisfy you, Mr. Superintendent? >> Does it satisfy you, >> Sarah? >> Yes. I mean, >> if she's satisfied, I am satisfied. She's

104the one who needs this information to do her work. >> Is there anything else >> from us? >> I don't think so. Not right now. >> I think it was excellent. I mean, I know you have something else, Sam, but >> yeah, it's not great. >> I say it it is perfect for me, right, for for what we needed for this topic, right? And again, I want to remind you after this meeting, if you'd like to take a tour downstairs, I'd love to take you downstairs so you can see that space because a number of you don't know what that space looks like. >> And so, and that was five scenarios plus a sixth Z scenario. Um, >> right. >> Yeah. So then the the other thing that I was going to talk about that

105I think plays into this and this is more on the relational side of things but it does have to do more specifically with fiscal which is why I'm bringing it up here is the second biggest thing I heard uh beyond the sunset clause uh financially speaking the second biggest thing I heard was and this is something we've talked about in the past but we need to have more raw data for people to be able to look at as best as possible. I understand how frustrating funds are. But we I'm still hearing that from people when >> what kind of raw data are you talking about? >> I'm talking about Well, this is something that Craig has mentioned at fiscal meetings over the past year. But as much information as we can have to present to

106the public about this is how much we're spending on this, this is how much we're spending on that between the buildings. These are the reasons that we are buying those things. These are the reasons that we're making those decisions. I know that that's a very high standard to hold. I understand how frustrating that is. >> To what level? You mean to item level? >> Yes. I I think that's what he's referring to. >> I think it almost needs to get there. That's what I hear, >> right? Because raw data to you might be different from what referring to. >> One thing I available every >> We're actually going to get into that level of data right now. Amazon report is >> we're gonna get to that level of data right now. >> Right. >> I

107will say Sam I don't disagree that we need to present data to the community. Not saying that the district's not doing that on board docs. That's not what I was. So, I actually did some research for this meeting today and the amount of financial data this district gives the board compared to other districts neighboring us at a comparable size is vast. >> We do a really I think a very >> thorough compared to >> transparent you know showing of what what we're doing. But again, >> so and I I I I agree. I I still need I I we still serve you and we and if that's not enough then you we we still >> would be easier maybe like on the web anybody in the district that has the ability to make like a

108dashboard to go on the main school website where they could click on a school and see the expenses assigned with that school and the shortfalls that they're going to see if the it's if it's not >> is there a paired module that does that? >> Well, I think what I think what Sam's trying to say is it's got to be in layman's language. >> Yes. >> Okay. It can't um you know, and we we all are certainly learning school funding and school finances is oblique. Okay. It's vast and it is um it's just it's it's crazy. And so I think what we have to do is to start putting it into layman's language and the kinds of things that you're talking about. It just can't be raw data in the sense of looking at a

109report. It's got to be something that is synthesized and so that it makes sense. I think what is saying right like a dashboard would be and I'm not saying it's an easy thing to build by any means. I've built dashboards in in Excel and I understand how time intensive they are, >> but it is a very easy way for anybody in the community to click the school and see a graph that creates expenses, losses, if um a referendum didn't pass or such things like that. And it would be it would be easier to look at, right? You think about like an infograph, right? Like most people don't like reading a pamphlet. They like an infograph. They like to look at a piece of paper that has many graphs with separation of data where they can

110look at something and knows what it stands for. And if that's something that could be on the landing page of the district website and I don't know if that's doable. I'm not trying to imply that it is easy even to create. >> It could very well be possible to do that. I do just want to question like if we're talking about buildings and what their budgets are, they're all seven buildings budgets are less than a million dollars combined. So like when we're talking about moving the dial on our 53 to 56 million budget, it doesn't do a lot, but you would include in that building budget like the expenses for the teachers that are at that. >> You would want to put staffing on there. >> Yeah. just like this building to run and have

111teachers in there. And >> I'm not saying it has to be that way, but you could say this building costs $8 million a year. Let's say Lebanon. It costs us $8 million a year to run this building because we're paying this many teachers in this building and we have maintenance people assigned to this building and these are the programs that are offered in this building. >> Why don't Why don't we do this? We'll we'll take your feedback and take a couple of stats at >> next steps. >> No, I'm not asking easy. >> No, no. Next steps in transparency. Part of the thing that um you know, I think what Dulane is trying to say and what I'm trying to say and you know, I don't even know where Carl is on on this train,

112but I will tell you this. I I know it's really difficult to understand our fund account balancing. I know this because, you know, one of my best friends, uh, she is a VP or was a VP at Craft Foods, right? You don't get to be a VP at Craft Foods, not know business, right? Uh, and and currently she's working for hedge funds doing logistics, right? She when I tried to explain to her our budget and I sat it out and said, you know, because I was trying to get feedback. How can I speak to our business community more about what it looks like for us, right? She's like, "Oh my god, this is crazy." And then I gave her one of these budget understanding books and she read through that and tried to give me

113more feedback and she said, "You know what, Jared? I don't think the state's doing you any favors. I don't this this is going to be difficult for even the best of an entrepreneur you know uh to to really understand and I don't suffer from that because I grew up in the system right I know how it works and I know the inputs and the outputs and all those things and I struggle with it until I get Sarah to help me with it who went to school for years just for school finance and you know >> so appreciate your So, so like I I will tell you we will try our best. This is not an easy topic to understand and I I understand it leads to the frustration of people because people are like you're

114not being transparent. We are trying really hard and like to your point we are doing way better than a lot of other school districts. I did look around in size and board docs and >> most districts give like one report revenue >> high level revenue ins and outs because that's about the level that most people could try to wrap their mind around but even when they do that they're like well what does this fund mean what does this fund mean right and then yeah >> what you're looking for Tammy is descriptive ledgering >> yes >> that is what you're looking for >> yeah well Yes. Not no not not at the dashboard. It shouldn't be descriptive. It should be visual. It should be visual for the community members. >> That is the same thing as

115descriptive. >> You're just putting a pie chart to it. >> It's just big picture, >> right? >> Yeah. We're not looking for, you know, >> and to be clear, it's not layman's terms in the sense of vocabulary or graspability. It is because the it is because when a government system acrus mass and complexity over time, it never does so in a reasonable way. It always does so in uh the most frustrating way possible perhaps. I don't know if that's a a law of reality, but it might be. So, it's not about oh well things have to be done now. I generally think I'm the most layman of laymen when it comes to stuff like this. And I think that this is something that people can definitely get on board with. I think that people just

116want to be given the tools to look at it and they want to be given the opportunity to learn about it at their pace in a lot in a lot of cases. And then they also want to be given the the short, right? They want to be given the the they want to be given the abstract at the beginning and then they want to be given the information the the information itself um so that they can approach it at their own pace and and come to understand it >> which which can actually be done pretty easily with links to existing data right I mean on some of it >> probably I mean I I'll look at it and see what we can do but if nothing else we can create a web page where everything

117is in one spot and people can look at it >> and I will say during the referendum it was it truly was both sides it was for everybody who wanted more. There was people saying, "I don't want any of this and I can't understand it." >> Really did hear both. >> Yeah. >> But it's good to have it available for anyone who wants it. >> Yeah. >> It's not about saying, "No, here here's your book assignment. You got to read the whole thing." I mean, it's just like if I walk up to I walk up to the federal government and I go, "Hey, what's that department doing?" And they go, "Oh, well, here's how much they get every year and here's how much they spend." I'm like, "Well, okay. I don't know about that." And

118I think that you saw a lot of that in the first half of this year when they were auditing certain federal departments and people were not happy with how those federal departments were operating. But the thing is if they had done that process a lot earlier, I don't think that the blowback would have been as bad. I think that it would have been I think it would have been a much milder situation and I think that the district is already trying to be as transparent as possible and I think the tools to communicate that transparency are the next step. >> Yeah. Let the record show that I'm not trying to insult any intelligence of our constituents when they use term to mango language. Sam's right. It's just got to be we just have to make

119it so that it's a >> it's not clouded in the some of as you talk about the funds that that stuff gets really complex. >> Yeah. So we just take the essence of it and give it to them. >> But they can be transposed. The funds can be transposed in a layman's language >> a little bit more. And I've got a I've got a way that we tried to do it in Richland. Um you know and I can share that with the two of you and see if like that fits. Um >> and then a little bit >> and the next thing is comparative. It doesn't hurt to compare it to another school district. >> The problem is, Carl, that we would have to most likely public records request their financials because I'm yet to

120find another district in the neighboring area that provides so much financial data monthly at board meetings. So those would we would actually have to public records request that to get accurate. >> And FOIA ain't that hard to get. We usually cost and it usually there's a delay. >> maybe they'll be accommodating. >> Yeah, right. >> Maybe >> hopefully >> I just want to commend you. Yeah, I was saying we're getting off the topic of our our discussion for >> I just I I just want to commend you uh Sarah for being positive about this particular discussion because um I think what what I somewhat hear is for you to find a way to provide a master's degree level of uh insight on school finance >> and and it's going to be a challenge to try

121to break it down, but right No, we're gonna we're going to get there. I have something that you >> Thank you. Yeah, we will. We'll get there. >> Yeah, >> that too. >> Okay, you got what you wanted, Mr. Superintendent. >> I I got what Sarah directed me to get from you guys. >> Okay, very good. >> Yes. >> All right. Now, our next monthly reports, next thing on the agenda. >> Yes. >> What do we got here, sir? >> So, they're all the same. We've got our checklist, our credit cards, and then the two what we call variance reports. So for fund 10, the operating fund and for fund 27, which is special education, and then the Amazon report is here. And then I also put a fiscal year in summary in this time.

122So all of these all of these documents as of right now, the variance reports and the year- end summary, they are unawited. We have the auditors in the office this week actually. So, we're going through the financial audit right now and we'll have audited numbers, but everything has been booked and so it is the end of the year. It's just not absolutely complete. >> Is the financial committee going to get a copy of that audit? >> Yes, absolutely. It doesn't get completely done until about December and then the auditors always come in January and present that to >> Very good. Okay. >> Who's our auditor? >> Um, we have cash. Yes. I don't know if anybody had any questions about any of the um checks or credit cards or the variance reports. >> Go ahead,

123Lori. >> A quick question, a general question. So, do we have a way to evaluate and manage how we're using resources responsibly? Like where we're not wasting paper or think we buy it and then oh, you know, we have no use for it or we're buying it in like tiny amounts when we could get, you know, a a flat of paper for cheaper. Are do we know what we're doing there? Yeah, for papers specifically, we order that at the district level at the beginning of the year and so we get it in one huge order. >> Right. No, what I'm saying is do we have do we have a way to evaluate how well we're doing keeping costs down and reducing waste? Do we have a >> I guess I don't know. We don't have

124anything specifically set up to watch like paper usage or anything like that. No, >> not so much paper usage, but that was just a probably a bad example, but um >> we have copy rates and we know down to the teacher login level. >> Yeah. No, >> who's using how many copies? >> So So say we're buy and we can talk to people when we think they're getting high. >> I don't think Lori's just talking about paper. I think she just means in general. like do we have like a a self audit like like you know somebody who has knowledge of the purchasing habits of the district and they go around and they're like let's let's take a peek and make sure that we're not wasting anything. >> We don't have anything like that formal.

125I would say that's like so we have our system of approvals and so at the building level we have like people approving purchases and then at the district level we have approving. I don't know that anybody's going around and checking >> answer it with this discussion or topic right um like Sarah said before we have decimated our building budgets to a level that really supports just the basic needs of teachers >> so it's cultural >> and and and I want to say that because >> part of how I also know is they're they're doing other funds to try to get things for their classroom or they're paying out of their pockets to buy things for their classroom. >> I know your wife's a teacher. I'm sure she buys stuff out of her pocket. >> I'm

126not saying we're not. I'm saying that >> I I don't I don't know that like I don't know how to answer that. I mean, sure, there could be waste even in a in a society where it's like you don't have many much much to have, >> right? >> I'm not asking for an audit. I'm asking kind of like do we periodically check >> like does somebody you know go around and like oh yeah this is doing well or oops we lost something here you know >> I mean our our building principles work closely with our staff to understand the building needs >> but what I'm saying is they frequently ask us for do you have anything more because we are be because the first question they ask right and I know because I ask it

127in March when we get down to March and we're talking about building budgets, we basically say after March 1st, uh, pretty much it's right right on there. We say, "Listen, you have to have another new level of approval process. It's not just your building principal anymore because we're trying to take the whole district-wide budget, which includes building budgets, and land it appropriately where we we're hoping." >> I think you answered my question. It sounds like it's built into the culture. I can I just >> but I I also think there's might be a disconnect that I'm not hearing that maybe Tammy's trying to point out. >> Can I just add on that line? >> Okay. So, I guess I'm going to use the Amazon purchases as an example. I I'm assuming that's for discretionary spending.

128This is my assumptions. I do not know and I don't know how the approvals go for any of that. But over the past year, not including January because the board doc document I don't think that like the column was wide enough. So the total was just numbers. The district spent $262,000 on just Amazon purchases. So I guess we're wondering if there's any sort of or I'm assuming Lori that you're wondering if there's any sort like approval process or budgets for each department or >> for at each school level or how we go through that because like for example on >> we recently approved um a large purchase of laptops >> and then looking over the documentation there was also a laptop purchase on Amazon. So if we just purchase like a large bulk of devices,

129why are we using Amazon as a tool to buy another device? I don't know about that specific um laptop, but generally the Amazon report pulls in purchases for many things. So it is the operating fund. It is fund 21, which is money that's been fundraised or is in club money. And then sometimes it's special education. So, the laptop could potentially have been for special education, but I don't really know. Um, about like who's approving anything ordered on Amazon would be going through somebody's budget. So, it's going to come through a building budget. It's going to come through a department budget. And so, it's always going to be approved by whoever that building leader is or whoever the department head is. So, yes, it always gets approved and it's always coming through one of those budgets

130and coming out of a line item that's already in there, some supply budget. So, as a purchasing person, um, I can tell you that what she just described is a requisition process. And the requisition, every So, every one of these purchases then, if I'm getting this right, has to have an approval on the requisition by a person >> like usually a manager or a purchasing manager. So, that makes sense. >> Yeah. >> And that would be in our case the principal, right, of the school, >> right? So the principles would be the first approver and then it does it comes sometimes to the department depending on what department's purchasing it and then it comes to the business office for final approval before it's actually purch for for >> and and once it gets to March

131it needs my approval >> a three-step approval for once we get to March end of March. >> It's not as inefficient as it sounds. >> It's fast answer your question. >> Okay. Well, and I think what you what we're ultimately talking about is look, our building principles um need to be people of integrity and they need to be people that we trust are not using money frivolously. They're not approving um requisitions that are not going to be used are just going to be thrown in a corner. And I in my opinion that rests on the building principle to make sure that the staff um and and the faculty are using whatever they requisition in an appropriate manner and that it's it's not wasteful spending. And so that's why it's so important we have really quality

132people in those building principles. >> Well, and honestly, our staff is they really do try to make sure that they're watching their spending. Um, and it shows because e even with the the low building budgets they have sometimes at the end of the year they still have some leftover, right? Um, >> that's good. That's a good sign spending to spend. >> But that's because they know and we've been really and especially since Sarah's gotten here, we've been saying we're we're already borrowing from our fund balance. If you do not need to purchase something, do not purchase it. If you do not need to hire a position, do not hire it. >> And we saw that impact this year, right? I mean, we really did see that impact this year. >> So, so the short answer

133is it's built into the culture. And that's a that's a that's good to know. I think it was important to say it because everyone assumes that large government entities tend to waste everything. And I think we need to say it out loud that this is the culture we have. We are being responsible. I think our teachers are are responsible and I think you know um classroom expenses and sometimes I think forever teachers have been willing most teachers have been willing to spend out of their own pocket to to supplement in their classrooms and that's what good teachers do you know um but they requisition what they really need and hope they can get it within the budget but they try to be very responsible and you I'm sure that's true of our our teacher >>

134I'll correct you on one thing Julian not more than 250 bucks That's only reportable. >> Sarah, I have a question about your explanation on Amazon. I don't I'm not sure I heard you right, but does all of this come from money that has been raised from fundraising or it's all >> No, it's just that some of the purchases on there because it doesn't divide it out by account number. Some of it is. So, it's hard sometimes to tell what's being purchased for where. >> Sure. >> Um, just by looking at that Amazon report. >> So, some could be like athletic boosters or something like that. >> Yeah. Like sometimes we'll see candy or >> Oh, sure. Sure. >> things like that. And you kind of think like why would a teacher need that? But it's

135not always a teacher buying it for like a classroom. >> Well, candy for teachers in the classroom can sometimes be important. Thank you. >> She she asked the question and I was trying to clarify it. I mean I I was basically going to mention that um it's my understanding that Amazon does not include I mean it's it's a it's a vessel by which a number of other funds may be utilizing purchases within it. >> Hey, I'm I'm a fan of Amazon. Excuse me. Personally, >> okay. Is there anything else on the future agenda? >> You got anything Sarah? >> Oh, for future agenda. I'm sorry. I think for next month where we'll talk budgeting again, I will bring these scenarios. Hopefully, we will have some um solid numbers and August we will likely have the

136contract for DNH transportation. Go Rightway is not up for um renewal this year. And then I was speaking with Kevin Suko. We he wasn't positive about the waste pickup. We think that will not renew for another year. So that also wouldn't actually be on this pod >> and that's the busy. >> That's right. That's okay. >> Special transportation. >> All right. >> Now, do can I ask a technical question about that? Do they have a shorter contract than >> Theirs is one year? So we we look at it and renew every year. >> Okay. I see. And who is the other busing service with? >> Go right way. >> Right way. Okay. Now action items. Any action items? >> I don't think there were >> Well, we're going to do those costings. Right. >> Right.

137Yeah. >> And that's it. >> That's it. Is there anything else? >> I don't think so. >> An after meeting tour downstairs if you would like one. >> Okay. If you want to go down to the basement, go with the principal, the superintendent. I >> And this meeting will adjourn at I got about 17 minutes after seven. >> So, we're done.