08/14/2024 Policy Committee

001where's the bone go over the chat Arrow up the bottom on I want to stop the Jared I wasn't able to hear you I think you're on are you intentionally unmute same here Lyn can you hear me now try talking now R can you hear me do y thank you does it work great figure out how to thir or fourth week of July and then that means all of August open AUST like we had the first week banet celebrating last season Sunday is our pre-season kickoff with our new team and then first so practices start technically a new season yes middle of they used to be AUST but it's early middle of [Music] yesterday lot of attachments right was I for some reason the same day there was a limit cut off so Ricky kid

002party now at yeah only two of them home so not too [Music] big hi Craig sorry no you're fine I wasn't sure how are you I'm okay how are you hanging in there any knows not really all right waiting [Music] for but this team [Music] last still interested so had actually done a private trial and we had to [Music] where they were they would be think okay 15 girls come back if I can everything this is where screen so access [Music] Thursday or Friday watching so here yeah [Music] we ready all right and time is now 5:34 I call this meeting of the policy Review Committee to order um we will start right away with um letter A in under our policy discussion regarding administrative guidelines regarding transgender students and there are um some drafts

003that you see there on or docks is there a you want to start that discussion yeah I can start the discussion um so I want you to know that uh we work very closely uh with our attorney Renee and Rene is here from V better um she's waving on the screen there for you um and uh uh drafted closely um administrative guidelines uh part of those administrative guidelines uh are our main focal point was uh parent involvement piece okay um there there is some discussion around uh choice for transgender classrooms uh right now we have in the draft that um uh transitioning students would have the choice uh to pick which restrooms they would want to use all of our students who are on plans have chosen uh to use um a unisex bathroom um

004that is a private one stall bathroom um so I just want you to know what our history is um however the reason we we put in the choice is because right now many of the Court decisions lean in in in preference to um the support of the transitioner um that is really open uh and you can talk with uh Renee a little bit more about where do school districts align with that what are where some of our legal choices and options um but uh it's there for you um I know many of you have reviewed it um in the file is also a a a form letter that uh our liability insurance company uh put out there that form letter went out to all clients they serve um they are uh for liability reasons they

005say you can make choices on both sides um but right now um if if the business decision you make is um in support of all students versus transitioning students more of the case law has been in support of transitioning students up to this point um so there may be uh some uh more liability that you're putting out there uh in regard to that um again specifically to which issue uh to to the bathroom usage issue okay yeah um but you can again talk about any of those issues with Renee we had Renee here uh to help give guidance um but in the end as a board you'll have to make a decision as to what do we want for our culture how do we want to put that and knowing that what liability are we

006opening ourselves to um on either side of that I mean because there's liability on both sides I will tell you this the waters are shifting back and forth there's no way not to have liability if if anybody wants to get litigious so uh with that um any questions I would have you direct to Renee but she is more of an expert than I am I just gathered information anybody want to start off that go ahead Tina I have question hi um I was just taking a look as far as like as I was reading through the different documents and things like that the model policies that are listed in there we're and I don't know who best to answer this sure it would be Renee I like I said I would I would direct all

007the questions to right and you might need to speak up because again the the microphone is here so so I I'll put some clarification on the model I can hear really well just so you know I'm good there there's it actually it's actually model policy 33 that's in there that's um that's a resource from Wisconsin Institute of from of Law and Liberty and that would be uh an example of um I'm sorry that it would be model 32 rather um that would be student gender identity and parental notification and consent that that is that what you're looking at y like is that that's not NE it's a Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty resource so it is it is a a a model policy that that they're proping as a way um to address because

008student gender identity and parental notification consent because it's a recent thing and because of the court cases and that kind of thing so that's why we're using that resource instead of Neola no it's it's just a reference by which um you can you can see how this is a divided issue and there's actually Court backing about the 14th Amendment which are uh which is the inherent right of parents to direct the uh upbringing and education of children under their control right I have no issue with the with the I'm just wondering why we're not using the Yola and where that one is coming that's just that's just my question we've I don't think that so so the first the first thing is that there isn't actually a parent policy there's this this um this uh

009administrative guidelines and guidance and perhaps there is a a more of a story regarding that but there my opinion there should be a parent policy um regarding that uh because you know it seems to be absent does theola do guidelines this isn't a policy this is guidelines they do have administrative guidelines there's not um one that I've seen proper for this topic right right because I think there is a difference am I wrong I mean maybe I'm Miss but there is a difference policy in administrative guidelines correct right I guess I was just so so called policy is the because we have the first document is the guidelines then the following documents are the consent form and the support plan and those are kind of like along with that guideline and they're talked about in

010the guidelines then there's the informational resource for a potential policy that you're talking about Craig and that's 32 and 33 the model policies but but uh Neola does not have a model policy comparable to of the two that you that we have on there from will right that's my understand okay yeah gotcha the other part of it too is the title title line Update Memo from the liability carrier is also a piece of um information to consider it actually lists out a number of different um uh cases that that um are currently in litigation and have already been decided uh that forms a recommendation of of the liability carrier to uh to to encourage us to stick with uh more of what the current title the the executive order of title n is our district

011is enjoined but there's also my understanding that the seventh Court of Circuit Court um has a different has a similar alignment to the Title Nine the current the uh presidential executive order Title Nine um but that is also a circuit split between the um 11th Circuit Court as well where they have a different perspective on the executive order the Title 9 executive order so we fall under the seventh Circuit Court in our state uh so when we're looking at what our liability insurance is is indicating they're not actually telling us that you know they're not going to cover us if we don't go with uh um you know uh specifically gender uh biological sex for for bathrooms but they're they're emphasizing that we probably should stay with with the the seventh Circuit Court I just

012want to try to try to do the best I can to try to convey what's what's occurring here and um Alana how do you do anything else you would add I was say maybe she Rene or excuse me Renee Renee and uh and I and I think that's a great description of it so I can just give a quick overview by explaining that this is complex and there are a lot of decisions to be made and we understand as lawyers that the legal aspects of this are only one piece of the puzzle but that there are legal implications and so so our role is to be able to give you information uh so that you can make decisions and we can't can you hear me okay yes yeah um so that you can make decisions

013and so we work with a number of different boards and the decisions range from we are going to do everything that uh the seventh circuit is requiring right now and not things that the kettle Marine decision is requiring we're going to try to do all those things at one time we're going to do none of those things we're representing a district where we're about to be we we've been before the seventh circuit because they chose not to uh comply with the seventh circuit um precedent and they are relying on the 11th circuit and trying to convince the seventh circuit to go in the direction of the 11th circuit so there are a lot of pieces here I would say that the three that we know about right now are that like like you just said

014the seventh circuit as it stands right now um is very much on the side of allowing any access to any restroom and um and and it's the lower courts have been unwavering on that point and so as a result there are many districts deciding to go that route parent rights is another area and that's wsha County Court um the kennel Marine decision um very very definitive about parent rights and honoring parent rights and then there's a new case in Argyle that many of you may have heard of regarding teacher rights and that's just starting to develop right now where a teacher says I didn't use the pronouns I was asked to use and so um I think that's a violation of my rights and that has yet to develop so that one we don't know

015about but the other two we do so the materials you have in front of you is uh from the perspective of if the district wants to go the direction of compliance with the seven circuit case in the wakasa County case regarding bathrooms and parents' rights and being very assertive terms of parents rights it would look like what you have in front of you for those administrative guidelines if there's a policy choice to go a different direction then we can talk about the risks and benefits of of going a different direction but that's the overview of where we are where we're starting from and um out off the press this is an amicus brief from uh wiscons well number of different institutes but our clients but one of them is Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty

016M brief that was filed August 14th that was today for um to petition this uh the Supreme Court to take up this particular issue in and of itself so it's definitely something that is um not settled I mean if you're looking at the C seventh Court Circuit Court that is settled but it it's still being um you know discussed in the court system and I'd say it settled today um like I said we're awaiting a decision from the seventh circuit for a neighbor of yours um we're assisting and so you know again things can shift at any time but yeah that's that's where we are today um any so there's there's really two main issues in regards to the particular um guidelines that we have here today one being the parent uh parental notification and

017and consent and then the other being uh the use of the the um the facilities and I did anybody want to um start any comment about um the parental right piece that is discussed in our draft just a pral right let's yeah let's start with that topic start that topic parental right where where do you stand committee on parental rights they need to be involved that's where I can't as far as I read the policy it was redundant in the sense it's every single time you said consent you had to then say and if the case they're blah blah blah minor then the consent of the parent uh but otherwise you know you could save yourself some ink by just defining consent the front of the document but otherwise I think it was adequately covered

018you literally threw out every single aspect of the document that consent implies that it's minor parents we wanted to make sure that there was no question in which case if that was a gap in the previous policy which I read once but I don't I didn't memorize it and I don't have it it wasn't as clear yeah that this one seems to be pretty crystal clear that the parents are going to be involved if it's a minor in which case no issue and I'm you know I'll say I'm accepting of the way that it's written okay I would agree okay okay so that that issue um Sam uh I did have one question about that um just about and I completely agree I think that uh you guys when you were working on this it's

019very clear that you wanted to that you wanted to get that in the Forefront that you wanted parental involvement to be a primary concern uh which I know a lot of people in the district appreciate however uh in the second paragraph of section one or section I ran numeral one and in the first sentence of section two uh there is the phrase case-by casee basis and specifically in that second section uh when it talks about the following process being used on a Case by case basis I wanted to ask does that provide the opport for any given person to at their discretion not inform parents no it does not okay so they would be bound to inform parents of minors in every single case yes okay gotcha I just wasn't sure because the argument that

020I heard from some people was that because it says case-by casee basis then maybe this is a case where we don't have to do that since the notification of parents and Guardians is contained in that lower section um there is one reference to it in that opening segment but in the process itself that all comes after the case by case basis phas okay so my my only one of my concerns is that um it's it's out of the norm for a an administrative administrative procedure and guideline to be just kind of out there on its own I really find I really find it odd that there isn't a parent a parent policy that would kind of drive this sort of thing um and then it says at the bottom the related policies you know student

021record policy equal education opportunities student discrimination anti-bullying and all that great but those aren't parent policies that um I mean it seems like that this particular administrative guideline is really U kind of stretching like the the ability for it to uh take those policies and come up with a policy that drives our whole entire process around um transgenders how we deal with transgender students I don't know so yeah and sometimes we do have some administrative guidelines that stand up their own but reference multiple policy um and that's why we we have them so that we can continue to direct and operate um if you want to write a parent policy that basically says what a lot of parent policies does which is we as the board recognize that you know this is an issue facing

022our schools and we direct the superintendent to write administrative guidelines and reflection of this policy go right ahead uh you don't have to but but then you would have a parent policy um that would direct us to have administrative guidelines Sur it so I do have a question kind of based on that yeah go ahead how is parents going to know about this it's not on I mean obviously today but in a year or two years or three years where is this if it's not a policy it's not in our policy board dos um so it will be in um our policy board docs okay as we finalize our administrative guidelines okay uh remember before we didn't we didn't call out our administrative guidelines they were like the policy 0.01 right or or something like

023that right uh as we move to Neola Neola will have specific policies okay and then they'll have administrative guidelines listed okay right and so then people will be able to see those administrative guidelines that way that's just be more organized got before in our in our current policy book that's still active it's hard to even determine that they're administrative guidelines because they're the point it says point one doesn't me people read it as power posi go ahead Dan uh Renee is it possible for us as a board to adopt uh the assembly Bill 963 in essence uh overriding the vetle by the governor how's that on the agenda tonight that Rel it's yeah would be similar to the similar to the U models that were put on like 32 and 33 specifically 32 this would

024be kind of a something I just wanted to know how that was I don't I don't study all the assembly gos that are out there so it's about alloc funds when there was a dairy farming competition at the same time right yeah that's I just wanted to know so what we've learned lately is that anything is possible so like I said it's all about risks and benefits and a position that a board wants to take so again we work with boards saying we're going to do exactly what the law says in the form that it says it right now this moment and with no deviation we have boards deciding that they are going to engage in um what we would call intentional um non-compliance I mean like they've just decided we will not comply we've

025seen intentional non-compliance that is coupled with we're going to make a statement about our intentional non-compliance other intentional non-compliance that's the decision to not comply with a particular law or interpretation and then uh just wait to see what happens but be prepared to defend if that occurs um we've also seen boards seeking injunctive relief in joining um DPI for example uh or the Department of Education from uh enforcing laws you saw that in Kansas with Title 9 so you know there's just a lot of different different options so all options are on the table it's just a question of risk tolerance and what the district is prepared to do you're sure answer Jared's administrative guidelines time them all to a uh parent policy how many are there difficult easy makes sense I know that about

026two or three months ago we discussed administrative guidelines here at policy we said they are the ownership of the superintendent we struck one line from the first paragraph I believe to say Hey you own it you edit it but it's part of the policy book which means that we have perview I'm I'm pretty much yeah I'm summarizing but I I would say Lori similar to you or Craig where does this reside and if it resides in a very clean spot that everybody can get to then maybe okay administrative guidelines can exist separate clear I mean not not obviously I mean obviously separate there's no 3420 or 1569 in front of it or anything like that but how many are we talking about if you had to create some o2s are we talk you know I

027I don't even have that number off the top of my head okay that's but I'm not against it unless there are a significant amount of administrative guidelines that we already have and there's administrative guidelines that are draft uh Neola guidelines that they would say you should think about having these as administrative if if function if if form starts to cost more than function if it takes us so much resources to maintain the entire system in the book with administrative guidelines and all it is is for the purposes of maintaining a book and we don't get any value out of it then all we're doing is creating a bunch of work for no good reason on the flip side the concept of tying those together I agree makes sense that there should be not just in

028a footnote Craig but in the parent document that Jared as you more or less sucely said hey here's the policy we you know give the the district superintendent the authority to create an administrative guideline this is 1234 and that's 123401 in which case I'd be happy to sponsor or to to to suggest that and create one just so that we can start having a home for some of these Wayward administrative guidelines so that we know how they tie back into the policy and that they don't get lost they're easy to find and more specifically they don't conflict with anything right so and again what I what I would say is I don't know that you need to do that stuff because once it's all in yeah right and searchable uh through Neola so I'm not

029I'm not you would just be creating another document that we need to manage you're just creating another document but if it adds value then I'd be in favor of it if it doesn't seem like it's gonna add value then and it can exist on its own then I'm not push that issue I just want to understand the again I don't I don't either here's my my thought on that that question is that there's probably a reason why niola chose not to have a parent policy on this right now and and I don't know what that is you know and uh yet we have this so um I think it has to be somewhere and perhaps maybe Neola will come up with one in the future maybe they won't but um I I I I guess

030I struggle with the rational behind why this exists in the first place um because I'd like to think that when it comes to um the parent policies that are cited on this particular policy when it comes to anti-bullying and respect we treat every student with dignity and respect regardless of of their background you know and and stuff like that student conduct that that would that would be involved no matter who the student is this document Craig has the playbook in it legal name versus you know a Skyward name um there's another half a dozen things that no one would know intuitively because it's such an amorphous it's best that we have a document I'm not saying you were you were espousing getting rid of it Al together just saying is if I was any administrator

031in this uh district and I was approached by a student and if I didn't have this I wouldn't have any idea where to start or go so I better have a document to work from A playbook because if you don't give them one they're going to make it up and if you think you can be wrong now with the information we have I guarantee we even be more wrong without one well to that point I mean I I always kind of felt re recently as as soon as I was me aware that this exists um which that's a discussion for a different time um I I do feel like you know now that it does exist it it has to have a home and so that people can refer to it um now uh I

032I guess I I would be in support of coming up with more of a parent policy that is is a little bit more succinct on on what the administrative guidelines um maybe should be directed towards but I mean that's just a maybe logistic thing May we're putting maybe we put the cart before the horse on this one and we should probably do some cleanup that I would support that I just want to make sure we do that for all administrative guidelines because if you're going to do it for this one then you got to do it for them all I think the general practices that we do we do this is I think not necessarily a general not necessarily not necessarily that's why I don't want to become a distraction not not this policy that

033effort right you know if Jared and ly are already going through you know a thousand policies trying to migrate them to create another 50 more just for the purposes of directing somebody to an administrative guideline when they search transgender it's going to show up all of our policies and then right below it's going to show up all the administrative guidelines there may not be numerical relationship between the two but they're all going to be in the same spot that should be able to be found in query but but here here's here's the other function of that if it's a policy uh that that the board uh approved that's coming from the board that's providing board Direction uh if it's a administrative guidelines uh like administrative procedure guid L that leaves Administration on the hook for

034for all of this no not necessarily because our board policy that done yeah the board policy as it's written um basically says all administrative guidelines have to be approved by the board right basically giving them the force of policy covered that two months ago right and we did that with our handbooks as well so uh you know that's why I said I don't know that you necessarily need a parent policy if you want to have one and you think it's more organized then that's fine the only other reason I think that you would have a parent policy is if you wanted to direct the certain kinds of work that you wanted us to look at and not look at in creating an administrative guidelines for instance you would say the the board directs the superintendent

035to write administrative guidelines around this topic um and address these things right um and or and do not address these things I mean that would be the only other perview that you would put in a policy that you couldn't affect in administrative guidelin yeah that's the only thing I I could think and and this just goes back to the history of how this came to be I I feel that personally This was um not as transparent as it should have been and um I feel like I don't want to repeat that that situation we have that problem with policy too sure and that's why we're going through the Neola process right I mean that's that's why we're going through all of this Diana did you have a question yeah sorry I didn't keep me that's

036okay it goes back to the the thing about parents and just wondering um yes it says in the documents um the parent the parent with the consent of the student and if the student is a minor the parents and Guardians yet in some of the additional documents not the guidelines it doesn't state that so do we do that purposefully or not purposefully so we just need to be consistent if that's what it is what other Doc and where specifically um see um if it is if it is missing somewhere which I I think it's it has been put in all of those documents because that is what we have been doing and we want to make it crystal clear that that is what we I'll search that and I'll get it just to make sure

037consistent language the other piece is is that what we want it to be that if a child turns 18 in October the parent do not contacted is that consistent with what we do I'm not saying it should be one way or the other is that consistent with policy as it is right now because the it's actually consistent with state law okay I just want to make sure that that's even even the Wisconsin uh Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty also states rights under this policy transfer from the parent to a student who was 18 years old or emancipated under state law I anticipate that because the kids can call themselves in sick they can do you know other things like that I just wanted to make sure that we as we're having this communication I

038wanted to bring so Jared to your question or Craig to say move it along but is the question about rental consent now is the committee it sounds like the committee is on on page with with with at least the administrative guide procedural guidelines about rental consent is that yeah yeah I I am yeah okay all right so we'll move on to that second question about uh you know the use of bathroom lock bathrooms Locker and overnight field trips that the liability well liability does play into that conversation yeah it's still in still in the guidelines though right yeah it's still in the guidelines but the guidelines as they are written um allow for a a student to select the restroom that they choose and lock and lock room uh and wi has some say in

039in the in the sports aspect of things but that's not so um in regards to the WIA I was doing some uh Research into that WIA if I'm not mistaken they do not require that they do not require that any school that is involved with their Sports have anything of this nature in order to participate it's just that it you are doing that you have to let them know because they have to have that information for their purposes any any other thoughts um I'm not typically risk ofe I've taken a lot of risks Financial personal physical what have you but if I'm going to pick one side of the policy or not I'm going to get sued I want to know which one I got the best chance of Defending and regardless of my personal

040belief leaves and I won't even State what they are um if it comes down to the kid who is offended because there's a person other than their gender in their bathroom versus the non-gender kid who tries to gain access uh right now whether it be title seven or Title 9 uh or current case law and from wasby conferences as well as what our attorney might say what our recommendations are what anybody else says uh it may be close but it's not 50/50 I think it's you know 60 40 75 25 that you get a better chance of Defending yourself and the 50,000 year so taxpayers who are entrusted us to protect their assets to stick with the I'll call it the unconventional wisdom of allowing the transgender student to choose because that's where case law

041currently is and we have a responsibility more so than the people that we been elected us or that the ones we happen to agree with that we have to protect the assets of this District uh is another one of our charges and getting sued and losing is not a good way to protect the assets of this district and the 50,000 people who trusted us to protect them so that's where I would lean as long as legal says it's about 7525 you tell me it's 5149 I might switch my opinion yeah but at 7525 I'm gonna go that direction what are you gonna say I'm sorry she's like she's moving I just gonna say right now you can't hear I was that's accurate right now in the seventh circuit that it's not a strong chance now

042again if we uh if we hear more from the seventh circuit based on that other case that I mentioned earlier we will let you know right away um it could be that things shift but we're not anticipating that's going to happen right now so restate that again what's your belief is in defending a position of denying access to a a non-gendered student or non whatever you want to call it some chooses to sign ciruit the seventh circuit has been consistent saying that the student gets to choose um they said it previously last Thursday there was an eastern district case which Covers Part of your District um saying the same thing and saying that the lower courts aren't going to divert right now from the seventh circuit so um chances of success would be better either

043getting up to the seventh circuit which is along and as one of you just mentioned costly process um or going beyond the seventh circuit and like I said other districts are litigating that right now my my thoughts on this policy specifically is that um we have to get this right uh this is knocking on our back door quite literally that um you know the the kettle Marine uh lawsuit is is an example of that where sometimes we have to make sure that we have certain things in place um to protect the rights of parents and conversations with their children now while that is the case we also see that um Title 9 as it's being enjoyed across the country and including our district being part of that injunction it is actually that is actually um

044a matter that is being discussed as we as we see and um I also believe that because there's a circuit split between the 11th and the the 7th um there's there's enough there to for me to believe that at some point the the Supreme Court is going to have to decide a number of different questions that these cases leave wide open so it it's concerning I I I I understand and empathize with the perspective that we should we should take a financial um approach to um the rationale behind moving forward with this um you know but also in this Amicus here uh elorn 105 parents with all with all with children in the school district um took the seventh court at its word and submitted evidence that numerous students are in fact afraid of using

045afraid to use the bathroom knowing that a biologic biological boy may be present in the bathroom with them so they're actually having a concern about their safety and privacy multiple members also explain that they are considering withdrawing their children from the district to protect them that's what we're up against we're up against potentially a division in our community that could result in parents making other decisions now when it comes down to it the way I see it there's two dis there's two main arguments there there's there's a financial consideration yes you might get sued but you might get sued from the other side too right then there's a there's a moral ethical and religious belief aspect to it that some people have and I and it and it's also evident you and the circuit split

046I I just I know where I stand on that um Craig only one comment sure I agree with 100% of what you just said except for the very first statement very very first state we got to get this right I guarantee you we will not get this right we will be sued doesn't matter what we do we will be soon it's a matter of can you defend it now you can defend it to your you know your household You Can Depend it to your friends your neighbors the people you think who voted for you I'm not saying that I guarantee you you will not be right on this subject the best you can hope for is odds okay that's it so I let's let's not try to convince oursel that we're going to come up

047with something that's perfect and right because there's not a single District or School District in this nation who's figured it out yet and it changes every single day so right isn't going to be in in our discussion here it's the closest we can get to right and everything else you said I agree with so I don't have a if we want to push the envelope we push the envelope and we roll the dice it's a matter is it waited in your favor or not I fair enough go ahead Lorry what have we been doing up until now have we been allowing them in the rest we've been allowing Choice we've been allowing them Cho we've been allowing choice also at the locker rooms um say that yes also in locker rooms allowing Choice okay okay

048Choice 100 100% of those who identify and have a plan have chosen to use a unisex bathroom okay and and and the reason they report that and I'm just sharing information you guys decide how you want to deal with it is one um they themselves don't want uh to be at a space where they feel they're different and they're having to be exposed to that right and they don't want the current body they're in to have to do that to others okay right so that that's that's been the reports they have for us up until is the choice based on these guidelin I'm just trying to make sense and thean CLA and that based on this they have to do the take this and we move forward with the guidelines the way they are are

049those students using the choice bathroom Only The Cho the students that have parental permission they all permission because 100% of our plans have parental permission okay no no I think I want to clarify your question though um could a student just all of a sudden decide they want to go in the boys bathroom if their girl or vice versa without who's monit who's going to monitor that they they they could but again that would go through a process by which they would be sitting down with their parent they would be sitting down with their school team and then they would make a change to their plan I don't they have an annual review of their plan I don't know that is consistent with the seventh Court the seventh circuit I I understand but the way

050we have our administrative guidelines and the way we represent it for our students is that if you want to make a change then come talk to us and we will change the plan okay okay you know I'll read this statement um this is you know did the seventh Circ also offer this Amicus the seventh circuit mean to require that a student must have a medically diagnosed or documented condition does a student have cons uh have to consistently live in accordance with his gender identity can schools require some sort of verification before immediately allowing any student that exerts a transgender identity to use the opposite sex bathroom how does reasoning in the decision apply to students who identify as non-binary or gender fluid Whitaker doesn't address these questions and has ultimately created further confusion this is

051these are some of the questions that are still left to be answered um in in under the seventh circuit uh so yeah I'm sure what you read there but on the page one paragraph one the very it says a transgender individual is an individual who consistently asserts a gender identity or identity gender expression at school that is different from the gender assigned at Birth this involves more than a casual Declaration of gender just for the day that I want to walk into the women's bom that day right okay so if they don't meet this paragraph for this policy right then I I don't exactly understand how the seventh in this one agree or contradict but we would discipline a boy who walked into a girl's bathroom on a Tuesday just because they thought it'd be

052funny to look up some skirts that that wouldn't they wouldn't be able to walk out and say but off transgender that doesn't meet our policy and it would fall under bullying and harassment etc etc but this maybe we could beef it up a little bit but the first three sentences in are pretty clear who qualifies and who doesn't although Craig I'm not 100% sure how that does or does not relate to the seventh districts what you just read I don't have that doc I guess that agree or disagree with what you were thinking I think it I think it contradicts what we have this is but I'm not an attorney and this is what we have so I'm saying so this oh seven contradicts what we have I believe so okay thank but so as

053it as a Schoolboard member when I'm taking a look at you know it's easy to get into the weeds uncertain things and I understand what our job is and so as far as what we take a look at um I agree David as far as like you know part of our job is to you know financially responsibly protect the district from risk and I'm not an attorney I may have certain feelings this way or that way but when we consult with the professionals which I I frequently look to the Professionals for their opinion and their guidance and that's why we're seeking it out um if they're telling me that um you know the less the less risky way to go you know is this because there are so many uncertain things there are so many

054things in process and you know we don't have a crystal ball and we could sit here all day and say well what if this what if that what if you know that's not going to get us anywhere but I think as far as giving us something to go on right now um I would go with a side that's gonna you know give us the most safety and the less the least amount of risk as far as it sounds like adopting you know this um you know what's what's written here as far as the update and things like that as far as following that is concerned it's not to say that I mean we we've come back for policies and things like that if something changes in the litigious world of that and it says no

055we should go this way I mean this isn't written in you know blood and stone I mean it's something that we can come back to right and change it the way that we would need to change it that makes sense for us but we have to have something going forward is the way I understand it I guess my I I agree with most of what you're saying in in the sense that I I guess I I I I I understand your perspective and I think they're valid points um but I also look at you know nothing about this is safe you know like we have uh six in one hand half a dozen in the other uh when it comes to Li liability in my opinion based on you know if this gets if um

056you know the seventh circuit gets overturned um perhaps maybe that means we're in not in compliance and we're that's a liability you know then we make changes that we need to make I mean right am I wronge uh there's more risks than just Financial here um this is a slippery slope they're in the locker room the next thing they're competing and we have more girls with concussions from getting hit with a volleyball by well hold on D we're not we're not talking about competitive play right now just saying it's a slippery slope the risk is we're going to have very few girls going on for those teams and pretty soon Title 9 is going to look a whole lot different than it did when it first came about and we're going to lose kids from

057the school district that's a risk too and I've never I've never been successful when I've made a decision based on fear if somebody's going to sue me they're going to sue me so I think I think we have a greater risk of losing our Public School footprint if we don't take a stance then do the right thing thank you Dan uh who is next was it Sam uh yeah I mean I do have a lot of questions I I went over this but I think that most of them the the issue that that we continually run into is the fact that things are divided no matter what there are going to be people who are not satisfied and the the the winds are going to blow in different directions you know pretty much constantly it's

058going to be one way one day one way another day and you don't really know how it's going to turn out until you get there but I think that there are questions that you need to address if you're going to do something like this if you're allowing if if you do have a situation where you're allowing a male to go into a female locker room are the parents being notified are the parents of those girls being notified do they know that there is a male in the locker room with their female daughters because that is something that my constituents care about a lot I've gotten more messages phone calls than anything else about this policy that's coming up and it's people's concerns about ambiguity there lots of people who are asking me about the potential

059Fallout the issues with um although it's not in this policy itself the concept of the purpose behind someone's gender expression is not is not a determinant of the validity of their choice and that opens the door for exactly what we've been talking about people using this to their own malicious Advantage like that young man in Lowden County did when he raped two girls in bathrooms and the school covered it up both times which was terrible that's a really serious issue that we need to avoid because that is a lot worse than dealing with people who are feeling frustrated that is a real consequence and the chance of that I think is so serious that we have to address it seriously uh the solution that I would propose that I think is clean and neat is

060you organize locker rooms and bathrooms by sex by biological bodies you do not organize it by people's gender identities and you spend 20 bucks 40 bucks to buy placards for the bathrooms and you replace the word man with male and you replace the word woman with female or something like that I think that would make it clear and simple but the bathrooms are not divided based on people's gender Expressions based on people's gender identities not based on social norms they are based on people bi I just want to make sure that you're aware Sam that the the whole argument behind Title Nine right now is under the definition of the word sex so and that's what's being debated is biological sex or what the definition of that word sex is um and the original uh

061Congressional legislation of Title 9 was intending that sex means sex yeah you know and that means male and female and the um the presidential executive order that's recently that we're enjoined about on is uh is it it makes that sex it convolutes the word sex in the way does it actually is it about the word sex or is it about the concept of discrimination on the basis of sex because I think it's built off of the B decision right it's it's it's Bas yeah the definition of the word has been changed as a result of okay I would I guess I would need to look into that my understanding was that the decision that they built the Title Nine changes off of was that if you do not allow a male to enter a women's

062room because he is a male you are discriminating against him on the basis of his sex being a male because the argument goes that a male can have the gender expression of a woman but it's not that a male can be a female that's a non-contradiction issue okay does that make sense I know that's maybe the attorney would be able to answer that Rene yeah can you tell me about that the question the question right now is whether the new regulations the 2024 regulations include gender identity in the definition of sex and so it's covered by Title Nine regulations and then there are a couple of different ways that couple of different pieces and I won't go into too much detail because I I don't know that you everyone wants to get this much into

063the weeds but um the we talked a little bit about the fact that the Kansas case is relevant because you've got your high school and one other school on the list so the Department of Education can't enforce the new title 9 regulations that include the gender um identity definition and that's one piece of it then there's a whole another body of law having to do with the Loper case from the US Supreme Court um and that calls into question whether or not courts will be bound by the answers that they're not um and so we're going to see what happens when courts start interpreting regulations of all kinds and sorts not just Title 9 but Ida 504 um because the ler case essentially said that um courts are no longer bound by agency's interpretation so

064that's a whole another area so I mean it couldn't be more unsettled thank you so Dian had unless you had something first I I just wanted to put on the table one of the things that many school districts Across the Nation have thought about is if if they're going to be thinking about uh the assets and protecting the assets of of the taxpayers and using those assets in a way that don't feel like they're gambling one way or another on this issue um they've instead invested in a winning situation that has resources available to anybody they just create unisex restroom areas and run and unisex um changing areas they they're all over the place you guys have seen them in many many places um and the new Y is have all unisex the the new

065Y is going to go that direction we we could make this a real non issue for people but it would take an investment of funds if we get sued it's an investment of funds so um when you can you explain that to me a little bit you're not proposing and I'm not sure what the Y is going to do but I know at the YMCA they have like family changing areas where there everyone has their own separate little changing rooms that they can go into is that the kind of scenario you're proposing or are you proposing propal changing the communal part is where you put your clothes in the locker after you've gone into the private area for you and or your family member right the other thing I do like about that is right

066now I mean we've got our same seex students doing awful things to each other fights and other things in an in a place that is UN unv videoed un whatever right if you create essentially closets where one person can maybe get in uh and change do what they need to do use restroom uh and then they come out right um that that can U be better um the drawbacks that I've I've been aware of of this situation um have been on the female side um you you let's say you have your menstration um it comes out of the blue right and you want to go into a place uh where um you can maybe talk and get some help from a friend real quickly and not be embarrassed right it's really hard to do that

067if you have a small stall right um so there are some drawbacks to it that we would have to think through or think about um but some of the other positives are we don't even have this conversation anymore right there there are other things that we could think about um and I'm not saying that we have a solution for that right now right because that would take a time and investment but it would move us in a direction where this becomes a nonissue uh Diana first sorry Jared took mine okay with you know as far as the UNICEF part um and my question behind that well making the suggestion a but the question is are we Bound by law right now to have the um students in non-gender assigned bathroom allow that permissible piece um

068or can there be a separate area in the meantime until we could do something like that what is the law State we you know because it'll be a bit before we can get to there that's more for Renee the yeah I I I would that Rene what what are your discussion points on that so the seven circuit currently says that students have choice right so that if all students have choice that transgender students also have choice and so but but that's it there's some other pieces we were talking about earlier that seventh circuit hasn't addressed but in a nutshell that's what the seventh circuit says and again districts are doing different things with that right they're um based on their culture and climate based on their risk tolerance based on a lot of different factors

069that are separate from the law but that's what the seventh circuit says right now as pointed out earlier different circuits say different things and um and that could shift but we're in the seventh circuit and so that's when when somebody asks about being bound um you know we know that lower courts are going to listen to the seven circuit we know that um but at the same time every District needs to make the decision that it makes for itself and when you say choice you mean the choice between the bathroom of their gender assigned at Birth the choice of a unisex bathroom or the choice of their gender what gender they're identifying in it's not just choice to right it's all free right right we're looking at Choice as opposed to you know all students

070who are transgender that's why you see the words Case by casee in a lot of administrative guidelines in a lot of districts because the idea is that we're working with a family to come up with a plan and that plan doesn't have to be the same for every student there's there's flexibility yeah the other part to my question and I agree with the statement of we have to be fiscally responsible we have a responsibility as a district for that we also have a responsibility for the safety of our kids and and I'm struggling with that because we have safety of our transgender students we have safety of our general population and I don't know where I understand the math game David's an engineer he's gonna air on the side of mathematics 100% of the time

071um I don't know if that's always best I'm not sure so I'm I'm willing to listen to more of the discussion in that I know my husand would be saying the same thing because I I come back to that emotional part of what if it's my little girl in the back what if it'ss my little girl for the first time seeing gentia they've never seen before and how do I explain that as a parent how do I explain that as a board member so there is an emotional part to this that carries in there so I understand the fiscal part and that's what I want to see okay Bound by law where are we Bound by law and if there's a way that we can maneuver I'm okay with that too because sometimes there's a

072little gray you know and and so so I hear I hear your statement and and you know don't don't necessarily disagree at all um I guess my my concern is yeah we have a liability of being potentially litigated because we change um according to what the seven circuit is is putting down but then we also have on the other hand strong liability even a worse liability if something really bad happens you know in in one of these facilities and and I know I couldn't live with with that you know as a as a consequence of of something that is still being settled in court and I I don't believe we're in Bad Company when there's clear circuit split here um but uh I do hear what Rene is saying the lower courts have all fallen

073down uh under the seventh circuit you know it it it's a it's a really difficult thing to consider but you know if there's a way that we can word this so that you know gender gender neutral bathrooms are accessible for that particular circumstance and that the you know that is said it's you have to give yes that's not but I mean that to me that would be a little bit more palatable even even going against yeah go ahead yeah I just want to interject because we're I'm giving you information we're giving you information about what the seventh circuit says and again I went through before there are a lot of options and Boards will make different decisions so if a board says this is what we want to happen we just want to make sure

074that you're aware of the risks and benefits right and that you're having the discussion that you're having now if the board's committee and then the board decides here's what we want to happen then we can help support with the language and the policy language to essentially put into effect whatever the board's choices are and I think that's an important piece so we can answer questions about the law you think about that you let us know which direction you'd like to go and then we assist in making that happen thank you um who was first was it David or tinaa go ahead Tina I just it as far as an information piece goes I mean I I don't think you know great we shouldn't you know be you know pushing fears and things like that out

075there I can pretty much guarantee that um situation that Sam described that more often that there are the same sex things going on there's more vaping in bathrooms there's more sexual assault through you know phones and dating and outside of school that is ever going to happen in those kinds of situations you pretty much absolutely guarantee it so I just you know as I know it's a sense it can be a sensitive topic but I guess I just want to put people's minds at ease that you know a lot more sexual self unfortunately happens in all those other situations more often than these circumstances okay D last go ahead my question is we talk about Choice which I respect 100% but if you have a girl and her choice is to be in a bathroom

076with only girls how are we not taking her choice away at what are we going to do in that situation if it's a belief system or a parent does not knows that there is a a student and while we can respect the boy wants to be in the girl that the trans for the transgender I can respect that we still have to respect the other child and I think that is where we are really up against a wall because I don't know what the right answer is you darned if you do darned if you don't I I think it's I don't know that's how I I what are we do in that situation what I've shared with you uh is uh you have to think of all the things that you're looking to do right

077in that situation if you if you want to equate those as similar similarly moral and similarly have same rights right um then you have to look at other things uh and you have to look at where your risk tolerance is right right then the committee the board as a whole right has to say how do we want to handle risk uh I I I believe I was talking to a citizen the other day um and they talked to me about decisions and risk making and it was true the person said um you go talk to the accountant then you go talk to your lawyer then you make a business decision that's what it's going to come down to you guys have to make a business decision on this you know because you're in the middle

078of a a moral um storm right now that winds are blowing back and forth in right right the only way I can help you is by telling you what the most current information is having you assess all that current information part of that information uh if it comes down to one thing it would be risk tolerance and how much you want to uh have as risk tolerance for what you are in charge of thank you what was next was it Sam or okay you're on the committee but okay um yeah no I think uh you guys kind of uh voiced a lot of the things I was thinking about I have one quick question for Renee Renee would it fall in line with the seventh circuit and I know that this is I'm asking the

079question for my clarification I'm not just trying to repeat things would it fall in line with giving choice to students if we because I see that on letter D on under article two uh the way that we deal with bathrooms is different than the way we deal with changing rooms right locker rooms are they don't say consistent with gender identity consistently expressed by the student so locker rooms do not have that same clarification in the language of the of the guidelines right now would it be possible for us to take out the phrase consistent with gender identity consistently expressed by the student in the upper half of uh item D there uh what because we are still giving choice to the students we are still giving the CH the student the choice of using uh

080something consistent with biological sex or consistent with or the private bathroom changing area or is that something that the seventh circuit is very specific about being insufficient bathrooms has been the focus and so we're seeing districts treat locker rooms oftentimes differently than than bathrooms because all of the focus has been consistently on on bathrooms so when we talk about these cases that's that's what we're talking about so I think the answer to your question is that that we do see more flexibility in other types of settings like locker rooms the seven circuit spe specifies that for bathrooms they've upheld currently that all three choices must be given not two of the three yeah that's that's what's happened but in those circumstances so some districts are arguing um that it the the difference is well you

081should be looking at the 11th circuit for example but but all arguments and you'll see this in the elorn case too are based on the specific facts and circumstances related to their district and students in their district and so um you know there could be a wide variety of different circumstances that lead to decisions regarding overnight trips and locker rooms and things like that but yes when we're talking about bathrooms then the the specific facts and circumstances that have been in front of courts in the seventh circuit they have consistently so far based on those those circumstances decided that choice was necessary for those particular students and then we'll see what happens so you know elorn is a preliminary injunction right um there's a lot to come can you clarify I mean because that that

082injunction could go both both ways but U I don't know how many people understand that the injunction in elorn is actually uh specific towards indivi the elorn school district proposed a policy similar to um you know sex at Birth policy rigid for for um those particular bathrooms and the injunction is for their students to be able to use a bathroom of their choice is that a correct statement the injunction is only for that one student to be able to use bathroom of choice it's a preliminary injunction and like I said there's more to come so when we look at injunctions we look really carefully to see does that injunction apply only to the student who's the the complainant or does that apply to all students and so the injunctions that we've seen recently apply to

083the student who is bringing the the action and so um that's something to watch thank you that's good information oh thanks um hour in not a problem another two hours in we're going to be in the same spot okay we're not going to get there tonight we not going to get there with the seven of us it's going to require um I don't have any problem we say you're till 11: midnight doesn't matter I B with that um I would propose and let me rep face it what do you think this policy is pretty consistent with the Seventh District we can write another policy that pushes a couple of envelopes you know says no no no no we're not going to do that we're not going to do that we're going to do this when

084it get sued over here and you have two more or less competing policies they cover they both have all parental consent in them as we already agreed and now you have kind of two documents and you give them to the board for a vote and you can have this discussion then everybody goes around the table says whatever there is on their mind and then you just vote on it and then you know where we stand and you know what the risks are you know what you're up against you know what hey this is the parents who are going to be happy about it these are the parents who are not these are the ones who are going to have to suck it up and maybe go into a bathroom with 10 girls and one boy

085it it could happen or vice versa but I mean we haven't even started wordsmithing this yet let alone agreeing on which direction we want to go right and given that it is fluid call it wins call it precedence Call It Whatever the court does tomorrow I already said Craig we're never going to be right so if we need to get to a resolution because right now Sarah is this orders in hand if somebody asked for a gender transition program tomorrow would this be the one that we would break out or we the break out the one without the print send so so at a minimum we should approve this one even though that it's a work in progress because I think we're all in agreement that we want parental consent in it and right now

086if somebody stepped forward tomorrow we don't have to consent their parent or whatever the last document said well we don't have to however that is what we have consistently done okay so I will say that the reason this came up was um during one of the strategic planning sessions um a parent had had a question valid question and I said no this is what we do and then I went back and I looked at our documents and I'm like these documents one of which that I had never seen before I was concerned that our practices as we do them was not reflective in what was written what was written was a bit vague and left out a very important piece which had to do with parents and Guardians being heavily involved in and providing that

087consent and knowing what's going on and knowing how to you know um if if there was a change or had some concerns or you know what to do we needed a Playbook that really did uh meet the needs of what we were doing and what we've been doing it doesn't mean we're going to change what we're doing but that old one has been used this one lays it out clear okay so my comment on that is that at a minimum we owe it to either that parent to Sarah's work to the agreement of this subcommittee to at least push forward that portion of this document that changes the parental involvement in the decision um and as Jared has said before let's not let great be in the way of good so at a minimum let's

088get that off the docket push forward at the same time I'd be really interested whether legal or somebody else could put together a document that was I hate to say as permissive or as as stretching the bounds of a court as possible if not the seventh pick a different one and if they're diametrically opposed well then we have at least some precedence on our side because we're not attorneys we're not judges we're we're not you know we're not even think tanks just a bunch of people that you know having to be dumb enough to put her name on a ball so am I wrong he's like I mean I'd like to think that we're we're a group of individuals that are doing the best we can exactly that point is that even with that we're

089Craig we will be here for another four hours because we've not gotten anywhere except where we all agree parental and consent has to be part of it righte but we haven't had this discussion at all but I'm just we don't even have an alternative document to look at to see how drastically different from this one it would be and what toes are we putting over the line right we know that title in Title 9 says if you're going to give them an option to one gender or sex you got to give the same options to the other gender or sex which means that offering unisex for somebody who's transgender but not the one that they declare I'm gonna say that's a big no no across every single court so you can suggest it in that

090alternate universe document but you will lose every single time because there's nobody who supported that yet not a single cour so now if it's about whatever is else in here I'm not saying that I don't find 90% of this is objectionable when I sit at the dinner table at night I'm not thinking about the dinner table this is more than just you know two bulls and a sheep voting what's for dinner and Franklin we have a lot of people to look after not just the ones that we choose to dine with and hang out with and we hear from them every single time that the that the public comment I'm not saying it's 5050 come close enough to think that it's 9010 there's a lot of people who are invested in this thing protecting their

091kid who wants to choose we represent them not just the ones we think voted for us so you I I have no problem with the different document I do have a problem sitting here for four hours talking about it and getting nowhere so I'm trying to get a way to get to a point where we have two things to look at and an understanding by the full board what our risks are with each if we were going to design an alternate document Jared uh I did a lot of going through this looking at looking at the cases that are currently in court uh and I I made a number of notations about things that I would maybe alter from that perspective like an alternate document like you were talking about and I appreciate that idea

092I think that's a really smart idea present both of them before the board let people vote the way they will who would we talk to about crafting an alternative version of this send me your thoughts we'll work with Renee on an alternative okay so what I'm hearing is one we still need to try to hone a parent document somehow potentially um we don't want we don't want that to necessarily hold us up however um we there may be support among the committee about two different um versions one that supports the the decision of the seventh circuit court and one that supports the decision of the 11th circuit court is that yeah if if if Sam has access to or the will documents you put in here are looking at different precedents from a different lower

093court I'm all in favor of looking at them and saying yeah that that that passes at least the red face test of we didn't do anything willfully wrong we may not be as liberal as this court but we're not any more conservative than this one right some input on that where as I mentioned we're we're litigating that for another District uh choosing to go the direction of the seventh circuit or the 11th circuit so we've helped to prepare some of those documents and happy to happy to give you our suggestions um as well thank you thank you um yeah I mean I have no problems with the thing you know I mean at some point we have to do something and so I think just ping into action and let the vote be what it

094is um I think is the right way to go I'm sorry go I'm confused I thought we agreed on the rental thing you said parent document I mean oh I heard that I'm stretching my sorry did that right uh so Sarah or jerck if this is a this is an administrative guideline and you guys create them and the board is generally aware of them them and ratifies them for the policy we approved two or three months ago does this one need any action tonight or just our awareness or how does it come up because and Craig I'm not trying to I mean I I think what we have to do is put this into action because we all agree that in a minimum it's better than what we have but that it's not done yet

095is is that accurate I think I think we're we're divided on that okay period I mean at least that's what I'm yeah I mean I'm 100% believe that there needs to be parent consent I think legally that's important they do think there are a lot of things that may still I don't know I one well I guess I guess my my bigger concern would be that there's still work to be done you know and does this come back to the committee again before it goes I understand I'm just saying if orders in hand is that Sarah doesn't have to contact the parent Ian is that now and then we to go back and revise it as to like the whole good versus great thing like we have in place Now does not match what we

096actually do more what's recommended I want to I wantan to I'm not defending what's in place now but it does say that it strongly recommends parental involvement and I'm not saying that that's the words I want in a policy but different Greg just didn't I wanted to make sure that we all knew what Sarah and Jared would be doing if somebody calls tomorrow and right now there could be some ambiguous as to why we wouldn't want that though like why do we not want something better in place I think we're all working for that but um you're asking you're asking the opposition to to part of the document to make a um you know a a decision that's against their conviction to support a policy and they're they're likely going to vote no on that

097so Craig if there's no vote they're supporting the policy that's in place would has the same language the same less language can I just chime in with an option that other districts have um explored and that is that if you have guidelines about how to navigate a gender support plan or a student support plan uh whatever title The District chooses the one of the options is to stay temporarily silent on the issue of bathrooms so I just want I don't know if that's a fit for all of you tonight but that's another option while the discussion is ongoing um in the event that you wanted to put those other pie in place but weren't ready to make a decision on the bathroom piece thank you for that uh that sounds appropriate um uh if we

098were to omit the um the bathroom uh Topic in this transgender guidelines and push that as a consideration the the uh both the what called they are called the student gender support consent form and the other form the uh student gender support plan both have an entire section called use of facilities in now so if you're striking them from the administrative guideline you got to strike them from that document which leaves it entirely ambiguous which means you're probably inviting more problems than you are by keeping what you have the next person who walks into a bathroom has no guidelin and and do whatever they want right I would highly suggest we do not strike it from the we may not like it and we have every right to change it in the future but to

099omit it is not going to help anything I'm I guess I'm a little confused because we're being told this is happening so if we're already doing it you you know what I mean like I guess so what we're doing right now is they have a choice of the three yeah but I guess I guess I guess to her Point like what's the urgency to be able to um you know to actually have a discussion at the next committee level that that that gets a little bit closer to to this I guess I don't have any reason to strike facilities from the existing policy in the ne for just to cover one month that I don't I don't think we gain anything so so what are you suggesting that we ask the um Administration to come

100up with a you know a draft policy on both both um the seventh circuit and the 11th circuit and just have a committee of the board I mean well that was one of my suggestions but if this policy is Gen if this administrative guideline is 95% of the existing one with the exception of PR consent I say ratify it I don't and then we continue to work as we just more or less agreed to which is having Sam and Jared draft one with in consult of will as well as the 11th District and our attorney to get one that is closer to the direction that some board members and some community members wanted to go but in the meantime to stay mood mute excuse me to say mute on bathrooms or to strike them entire

101from the policy and the consent form and the ETC I think is dangerous I I just don't think it's prudent to take it out okay so you all should you you all should make the choice that's right for you um so that you're aware the districts that say silent on bathrooms then that decision goes to the administration so some boards decide that they don't want that decision to go to the administration others decide that for the time being they're going to have it go to the administration but that's just so that you're aware that's how we've seen it operate when boards decide to stay silent on bathrooms either temporarily or for the long term yeah which is what we have in place now I have an out of the box question we have a gender

102support plan in front of us the other plan in front of us how is that any different than a DP plans that we have for Advan leers not specialized on by law that's different with IEP but we have an advanced learner plan specifically which tailor their instructional thing it gives them something a little bit different but it's within their needs how is this any different so do we need to have administrative guidelines to be able to move this forward that's my out of the box question that's a good question but I don't see a lot of I don't see anything um there's law yes so it does that make it similar to an IEP where you need guidelines or because it's still somewhat gray it's kind of like the D I don't know if the

103Administration has any guidance if Rene has any I don't know I mean when it comes to IPS and stuff like that you're always going to have some sort of a guiding um legal document that does that right right St law right that's federal and state law and so that's different um and in terms of how districts handle this again all over the board some districts have policy some districts have guidelines some districts have neither policy nor guidelines and they handle um they have forms that the administration uses and it's all directed to the administration to implement in their discretion so it's very very uh there's a Continuum of different ways to handle it but it's not like I right I'm just wondering if this can at least moving those forms forward so we're at a

104better place than we are today and still honor the fact that we can still work the guidelines at a different I'll I'll say this I'm not voting or a policy that um is against my conviction um when when when it's not finished I'm not going to do that okay is there anything in the plan that we say that we don't like but let's move to the gender support plan then is there something in there that we say we don't like because we're currently needing to do that anyway we're currently doing these things anyway it just gives consistency for building to building to building where we may not have that right now so I guess I'd asked Sarah is there anything on these plans that we're not currently doing yes or no and if I mean

105you already said that this gives more um consistency from the buildings I guess what here don't we already do sure so again uh while our practice was to have our parents and Guardians involved in this um it was not something that was written down in stone that we must um and there left a descrip AR Factor this takes that out of out of the issue right um we then um I chose to make sure that the this document that these gender support plans were reviewed and revised every single year so that they were updated whether it is current whether there has been a change a concern um they have not been actively reviewed like that with the families and with the student unless the student approached a student service member okay so there's some of

106that when we go into more of the areas um I added a little bit more explicit um verbage I added um some information regarding the change of legal names to make sure that we are following legal policy which we can only do that if there is a court order um we have dealt with that in the past um however it needed to be stated um went through here and I added specific action items on the bottom that must be done we must complete the gender support consent form with the families so that we have documentation that the families are involved and they do consent to X Y and Z the sharing of the plan the scheduling the consent to you know do a variety of things we don't have any of that at this time

107I wanted it to be very clear for our student services staff members um what they needed to do to um make sure that they were following the law because this follows the law as it stands so what I'm hearing you say is that this is everything that we've currently been doing but we're also covering ourselves for the legal pieces that were we didn't have documentation of in place there are pieces that we had not been doing and so it creates a more robust plan that is very um consistent with the law and and um it is spell out okay so you know I I there so much on here though that we haven't discussed I do think we need to we haven't talked about student ID and let's discuss it Dave is saying not to

108the committee is wanting to to come up with a new Ian okay being here until I do but if this is if this is something that we need and we can do right here right now at the start of the school year and the guidelines aren't a necessity to that what are your additional concerns Lori we haven't discussed the WIA this makes it seem like we legally have to allow them Title Nine is still I'm assuming we are not required to follow Title 9 I I have questions about what wi enjin from title the the current executive order Title Nine right but this is kind of saying we are we allowing transgenders to go into the sports that they were not I mean it's giving them that option Am I Wrong maybe I misre I

109interject on the Kansas case and the injunction so the injunction is against the US Department of Education so the Department of Education cannot um enforce the new title 9 regulations not all of title 9 but the new title 9 regulations including gender identity they can't enforce that in those two schools um in the district and so that allows in those two schools the board has a choice some boards will will say we're going to implement the regulations anyway others will say we're going to pause and others will say we're not going to implement so just so everybody is aware um in case you get questions or it comes up uh the injunctions against the Department of Education and the board has a choice my understanding is that we were taking a pause yes we already

110had decided but okay your question Renee do you know what w how WIA lands on the subject of transgenderism and sports we we know that they've got some guidelines and we usually in policy if a if a board wants to take any kind uh make any kind of statement in policy or in administrative guidelines we usually just refer to WIA Because unless there are athletes for which the district decides it wants to challenge the wi rules so most of the time what we see is just you know we're going to follow wi for WIA eligible students in activities what are those current WIA rules so I can just I'm not an expert in WIA I focus mostly on what the law says but I can tell you generally that um they have you know they've

111talked about the types of medical information that they do and they don't require it's very specific and we can get those detail dets to you it's it it's not just black and white it is January conference at wasby there was two amendments to the wasby manual that were put forth that weren't considered by the called The Board of Governors and one of them came out of Sun Prairie I think having to do with free breakfast for all all the time and then the other one came out of another District that wanted to specifically put into wasby uh guidelines and recommendations that had uh I think it was to protect the women's sports uh clause and wasby as a governing body if you want to call it that as a recommending body maybe they said you

112know what we're not going to take that up we're going to defer to wiaa and they recommended all districts do the same thing meaning that kick the cam to somebody else's problem if you want to rule on it do it but wasby wasn't going to take an official position on the uh protect women's sports clause and recommended uh Wisconsin Association of school boes which means they're leaving us all out there on their own to make our own decisions there no recommendations and they have some you know rules wa I don't know if you want to call them rules or they have like a the procedure if there is a student if we would so my understanding is it's a discretion of the school district to allow it at this point I wouldn't know but so

113we allow it a team shows up with somebody who's on a team what do not and that's and that's why asks for people to disclose that if they are going to allow it because let's say that we're let's say that the school district only allows males to play with males and females to play with females are females who are playing football whatever female football they have a right to know if they are going to be playing football against a male very important that's my point like I think there's a lot of discussion that has to happen there I know it's a bigger no they do not they don't decide what any school district does school districts decide and they just they don't far anyone from doing anything in this plan I don't see where it

114goes into that if we take out under curricular activities if we take out the two lines that descript of under it and just leave the heading there in that gender plan if we took that out for now until we take care of the administrative guidelines if we take that out I don't see anything in here that gets into any of that stuff so based on what you were saying you have a hesitation on this that if we remove that does that remove that hesitation so SE section go to page three curricular activities of the of the plan yeah okay where it says refer to the administrative procedural guidelines transgender blah blah blah blah blah those two lines for the time being until we get the administrative guidelines taken care of because we have nothing to

115refer it to at least we have that heading there Sarah does that take anything away from the document itself and B for the people in the room does that at least satisfy our um does that take care of our apprehension for that piece for for you that was the one apprehension piece of why we wouldn't move forward with the plan well that was one piece right so so so we put another piece out there you know we can only deal with one thing at a time so remove remove uh remove the two lines under qu activities go to the top of Page Three under the gender support plan yeah refer to administrative procedural guidelines transgender students for information on student interal well last Athletics extracurricular activities yeah if you just remove that Des scripter you

116still have full curricular there you still have everything underneath it you just eliminated those two lines for the time being and if webe Sarah can put them back after we take care you know I don't want to do anything different to the plan you created but does that at least take us to get us in the inter I I think it's still in in the document though the you know section V under Section yeah section V and the guidelines themselves we talking about the plan we have a plan right now that's not connected to the guidelines so I'm saying right now can we at least have a you know a better plan in place we already said that we need to look at two different sets of administrative guidelines we've already kind of agreed to

117that we're not going to get to that today so how can we do something better for our administrative team in the next two to three months before we have this stuff T because it's GNA take at least two months Sarah do we have guidelines currently in place do we have any kind of guidelines because my understanding was that you mean like administrative guidelines prior to these administrative guidelines my understanding was that there was a copy that was on a computer and that was what Jared found when he was asked to look look into it so we do currently have guidelines yeah okay so so the reason that we're questioning this is because currently as it stands we have um a like you said Sarah we have a less specific version of what's on our table

118tonight we have a we the stuff that's currently in place is a broader reaching bagger version of these guidelines that you and Jared have worked on um we have a gender support plan that is less specific than what you guys have worked on which like I said I appreciate that always want to get credit where credits do on those things but the reason that we keep on getting held up on it over and over again is because fundamentally there are there's at least one difference of opinion or more differences of opinion on the board currently about what would be the best model to move forward with that and that's the reason that we keep on getting held up at every stage because those things are all wrapped together the current guidelines the current support plan

119the the proposed guidelines the proposed support plan that's all going to be wrapped together for the entire the entirety of and the reason that I come to these as a non-committee member is because this is where the majority of the conversation happens and we have huge board meetings already the conversation needs to happen here right um just to clarify I'm not trying to bring draw things out um I guess my question would be to Administration whether or not they would have the bandwidth to move move forward with those two different drafts sounds like it sounds like um the our legal council has uh you know some some language already um potentially worked up that might allow for that to to occur um is is that possible we can put forth those two um those two

120proposals are recommendations for the board for the next board meeting and just happen to have u a uh you know discussion of the whole on that particular topic and then and then and before they answer Craig I'm going to ask um not that our presence is relevant but when we've had somebody sponsor mostly time of policy but let's say in this situation sponsor an administrative guideline it's worked pretty well I mean whether it was bullying all right Veteran Affairs or not honorary diplomas for veterans and deceased class members uh Tina worked on extracurriculars Diana was working on I believe that one got punted a couple times uh you had one as well uh and if Sam wanted to let's say it's the next policy we talk about if Sam a sponsor one we'd give it

121to that other board member and a member of the administration to work on it and bring it back to the next policy meeting I don't as contentious as this one may be there's no difference in what I just stated in the bulling policy that Lori worked on and I was only advocating that Sam do exactly that sponsor this take it back work with Jared work with legal work with niola and propose an alternate with them side by side and my only comment my only my my only pause at any of that is what's the order in hand and you're telling me you can't even get behind this document even though it's better than the one we have because it's got a language objectionable to you on the flip side you also agree it's better than

122what we have so we're at an impass yes we're happy with Sam moving forward with a different one we like what we have but we don't want to end this meeting until we alter it to be perfect and I'm saying we're not going to get there I agree with you we're not GNA get there so then we have to which one do you want you want the one that's currently available online and and even more objectionable than the one in my hand or do you want to say Sarah and Jared work with this one until we get a better one drafted by Sam and ratified by the board and your call you're the chair I'm just telling you got to pick one right I I would be supportive of the sponsor um process if that

123if that works if Sam you're willing to sponsor that I don't know if the rest of committee is supportive of that thought sounds like David Trader has his good with it I'm good with it okay all right and then it's a matter of do we need any action on this administrative guideline or is that does is that action leave Sarah and Jared kind of in a well I it would suggest that the current um administrative guideline which has not ever been approved by the board still stands so so why don't you just take out the one clause in D about the bathrooms and then pass the rest of it maybe take out the clause in D and then the we've discussed we' discussed it's just it's creating a lot of extra work for you know

124so no I understand it is really a rock and a hard place I I it's it's it's a difficult it's a difficult spot to be in say try to do more right than wrong Sam when you put it together I I think I'm I'm pretty clear as to the direction we're going here direction we're going is we're gonna we're going to craft an alternate that aligns more with the 11th circuit Sam if you can get me your notes yeah I will get them uh through Sarah to Renee they uh Sarah and Renee will come up with a draft for you to overview and then we'll bring this all back to the next committee meeting yeah I think that's the best best to take honestly and Sam you're the sponsor i' trust you on it I

125I would just let's not try to if if the seventh is here and the 11th is here let's try to keep between the two I don't I don't know I don't want to be dipping my toe on the other side of the 11th I get what you're saying I mean I don't know what that would be because I don't know what their policies and that precedence is but yeah um so so what what I title L want so what what I understand of this board right is is um you know we're we're not um of the ilk of a school district that uh is so far one way or another way politically because they feel like their Community is that far one way or another at least the majority in the community that they're going

126you know um to be uh you know Advocates they're going pass be pleading Edge on either exactly that's what I mean I I think we've always as a district been in the middle and basing our thoughts on Law whatever that is whether it's the you know politically left side of the law political right side of law but we still have basis and we don't we haven't been Advocates right um some other school districts push the envelope to be Advocates I haven't seen that from this District yet um and if we're changing that um then I need to change my work product that I'm bringing to you because I'm I'm hitting more of the you know um the idea of here's what things are in place here's things to think about and this is where you

127need to go if you want us to get into advocacy as an administrative group then tell me which direction that looks like and how are we going to get there um and I will bring you that work product because that's what I'm hired to do um but uh I I think I can hit what that middle looks like from the 11th circuit court side and bring it to you and say this is what this proposes to be okay okay and you guys can then vote on which uh side of that as a board collectively you fall in thank you for that any further discussion too bad thank you quick no wait time um go ahead consent form because this is something that we do not currently have no we're actually going to be under our

128our regular guidelines as they were uh I mean we're not moving forward with any change right now thank you Renee are you able to stick around for this next one sure yeah absolutely I can letter B um we have non-discrimination and equal opport equal employment opportunity uh that's policy number uh 3122 and we had a discussion about staff ethics last meeting those two um policies were going to come back uh we see we see the information U regarding an email correspondence with uh with um neol Neola and they they let see what they say um the the committee would like to see the current District policy verbiage included in the Neola version of the policy however they would like to find out if any U of the district herbage is problematic or conflicting with neol

129before it is added to the Neola policy and um I think their response was oh shoot I lost it the B I'm not sure I see the question regarding policy 3210 yep okay I think you could add policy okay 3110 uh 3210 and 421 10 appears that several of them may overlap so I would take care in adding if there are statements which are similar intent and content in those cases you would probably add either the district or Neola whichever you prefer although the closer you stick to Neola the easier updating would be in the future that's that's nea's response I'm sorry yeah is there I guess the question is say what what's your question my question was is there any harm with sticking with our current verbage District verbiage in the policy uh for

130staff ethics why don't we want an updated why would because I just don't know why we wouldn't want an updated one because wouldn't that be easier for to for Neola to update it as updates well keep in mind um that discussion was that our current our current existing uh staff ethics policy was quite lengthy not super lengthy but it was more specific it happened to have more things that we had identified as being important enough to call out specifically for her ethics concerns than what neolis was I felt ours was a little bit more concise as well but I mean so I don't know if Renee happens to have uh access to that policy I believe she does 31 I I haven't seen that before I mean we can absolutely review that um if that's

131helpful to all of you but uh I we haven't reviewed that I don't I haven't somebody else in our firm do you know um I don't I don't believe Emily has reviewed this ethics one um and that was because the the board uh directed some things to our legal firm and some things to us to have questions from Neola basically what I think has happened is we got a response from noola um and then and the response from noola is you can use either one um but we prefer you use ours because it'll be easier for updating in the future okay I mean that was the response basically that we got back from Neola um the the question is is do you want our attorneys to review it because that would be uh a different

132set of eyes um and offer an opinion in my true sense I mean I read through this I didn't memorize them but there's in my mind there's not a material difference and I say material I'm not saying it's not more specific and there's not more examples I'm saying materially there's no difference in which case go with the one that's the easiest to keep updated easiest to implement easiest to understand and let's move on to to split hairs on non-material differences Craig if you want them take them you'll have my vote I'm just saying then then let's do that but I'm I'm not gonna as little time as possible there's no difference Sam yes basically Neola said there's no no real difference to do so yeah if you want to put it Forward Put It Forward

133okay I mean is there any objection to moving forward with 3110 like our old our old version version of instead of ne1 neas what because I would prefer to go with neas because if there's not really any fundamental difference that way um you know I think we have to look long term as well just as far as like okay if Neola is going to be able to update it like oh they can update it otherwise they're going to have to pull this out separately and who whose job is that going to be the committee's job we'll see what their updates are going to be and then it's just a matter of a discussion and then plug it plug those changes in if if that the code ethics changes you know then okay we we'll have

134that conversation but I can't imagine that there's going to be much compliance changes with ethics I mean they're going to say actually you are allowed politically process students no that's not think they're going to take issue with specifics that are in there just so I don't know I so so Tina would prefer to stick with NE okay I guess we'll move forward with not gonna die on either Hill okay we'll move forward with the old ethics so we're gonna language the old pull the old language put it into the new number and then just remove their their language yeah all right uh which which actually brings a question that I several questions um regarding the non-discrimination and equal opportunity uh equal employment opportunity um you see the response there from was that Neola wa why

135is this there Neola and the attorney correct Neola and the attorney um regarding was just the first paragraph por parentheses was that the major difference that was I think the question the question was on page three of 3122 there's a pair the second paragraph under reports and complaints of discrimination and retaliation they wanted to know why this is written this way and clarify what parts of the policy are legally required okay I I appreciate that um and I will clarify the question that I I actually do have that wasn't um wasn't uh explained in in their response but I I did I don't know I wanted to give for me an opportunity to talk speak to what what's already been profit by them um and Renee uh Emily from your office did respond to Margaret

136under policy 3122 non-discrimination language it's in the uh supporting documents there um so you can email attached you can see her thoughts on that it's the wusd email forward policy 3122 yeah I can see this up here um I could look for it but anyway I can just give you an overview if that's helpful so um I can see here that the this language has gender identity in it and so if that's the heart of the question and is it required um as Emily will tell you regarding Title Nine there's not a requirement that um yeah so I think there's I think what might be helpful is that if if the committee and and then the board decides they want to go a certain direction dire then we can absolutely support that Direction with language

137that is consistent with you know if you want to go with new's language there's other language that's recommended other places and if somebody asks us is that okay yes that's okay you can do that so in other words the new RS and Title Nine and um you know the injunction and all that kind of thing you still have the choice you have the choice of moving forward with language that would be consistent with the new regs even though not required by them you have the choice of pausing and it sounds like you're pausing so um there's also the opportunity to say we're not going to do that yet because we're pausing so all those policy choices exist and then once we know what the policy choice is then we can say okay here's the language

138that would be consistent with that policy Choice hey Renee this is Margaret this PO this email is related to our anti-discrimination employment language not related to the title 9 policy language and there was a question as to whether the title 7 language included things like um gender identity um and things like that so it's more it was more focused on title seven not on Title Nine got it and so when we're looking at general non-discrimination policies that's what I'm talking about and Emily can speak better to the employment issues as many of you know I'm student services so I don't get into the employment issues and always ask that she weigh in on that so that's my overview of how we're handling the title N9 stuff but Margaret I'm glad that you um interjected because

139if the policy that you're looking at right now has to do with employment only then um then I would defer to Emily on that piece of it and she sectional orientation is a specific proteced class outl outlined in state law so we want to keep that reference in there however gender status change of gender and gender identity are not specific outlined in state law while title n argu AR arguably covers these categories under the prot protected classes class of sex you would not be required to include these specific terms in your policy Additionally the pending Title Nine litigation could have an impact on these terms as well right so so she it seems to be that she clarifies that pretty pretty decently I'm sorry what's our issue with that so I will I will say

140I think my I tried to I tried to email these qu this question uh my my questions regarding some of the language it was actually the um second paragraph or the that particular paragraph that that was contained within so I I said um I'm not sure my questions are answered but discrimination that that section discrimination um against an individual based on their sex including gender status sexual orientation and gender identity is a discrimination of title s specifically discrimination of based on sex stereotype gender non-conformity cons uh constitutes sex discrimination this is true irrespective of the cause of a person's gender non-conforming Behavior employing employment actions based on an individual sex could be suspect and potentially impermissible so along with um that section in parenthesis which gr which I feel gratuit gratuitously references gender status uh

141my concerns pertain to the last two sentences and that's what it says specifically discrimination on basis of sex stereotyping gender non-conformity con constitutes sex sex discrimination this is true irrespective of the cause of the person's gender non-conformity Behavior employment actions based on an individual sex could be suspect and potentially impermissible so that that takes on the tone of of the particular neolo policy that that moves on throughout the disciplinary actions that the district takes so I felt as a board member that has sworn and O to uphold the Constitution I am concerned that this line ultimately gives deference to an individual that has gender identity complaints while at the same time rest stking one's First Amendment rights of free speech through compelled speech uh compelled speech is a complex issue and the references provided by

142the EEOC are seemingly more lenient than our policy as written than this particular policy um then under Section 11 uh it says could the use of pronouns or names this is from the EOC could the use of pronouns or names that are inconsistent with an individual's gender identity be considered harassment I and then it says yes in certain circumstances unlawful harassment includes unwelcome conduct that is uh based on gender identity to be lawful the conduct must be severe or pervasive when considering altogether unwelcome conduct based on individual sex including identity therefore thereby creating a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating hostile or offensive so very specific language from the EOC so in that response from the EOC they clearly indicate that the conduct must be severe pers persuasive and repeated uh yet

143this Pol proposed policy takes on the tone that it's a zero tolerance policy where one can be fired for refraining from compelled speech so at the same time the policy does not seem to remedy this situation where two individuals that are not gender conforming provide a complaint against another so that's opening up Pandora's Box too uh so my main argument question concern is this would it give the district the most amount of flexibility and reduce the liability regarding the Constitutional questions by omitting those particular lines since the protections are provided to individual currently under law for discrimination which is also acknowledged that the state has not added to statute why is there a need to provide deference to a group of individuals over another group um who have convictions to reserve their speech so that

144would be my question that's my main question um and you'll see in the examples in the agenda [Music] under administrative guidelines regarding gender transgender students I included po model policy number 33 the use the employee use of student pronouns and and that is Will's um model policy that also seems to um lend Credence to what I'm concerned about you know specifically the district will not discipline a teacher from refraining from using the preferred names and pronouns of a student if doing so will conflict with a teacher sincerely held beliefs so are you okay so I there's a lot going on there um sir you're saying that paragraph goes against First Amendment rights and so what Neola is recommending goes against first amendment I think it omits first amendment the First Amendment protections of individuals that

145that H want to refrain from using uh pronouns according to their teacher teacher sincerely held beliefs we're here to protect the Constitution that's to to uphold the Constitution well that's what you s not to so I mean I'm asking from the standpoint of because okay so it I mean and I'm sorry I'm just um legal council in this area might be able to speak to it because I guess I'm trusting that niola is giving us the like what needs to Happ and I'm raising a question that they're not so I can I can add a few things I have reached out to Emily to see if she could jump in and I haven't heard back um because she didn't have this on her schedule but um but we're absolutely abolutely happy to give you additional

146information one thing I can say right now is that that that issue um that has just been raised regarding the teachers rights and that's what we're going to see litigated in the Argy case that I mentioned so um there's a teacher who raised that concern and that's going to work its way through the courts and um so we'll know we'll know more through that we do know that there's going to be a conflict between parent rights because parents have the the right we know from the kettle Marine case to be able to direct um what their children will be called in the gender that they will you know be that will be acknowledged and so then you know that we've got those competing rights and so this case is going to be about that so

147I can tell you that from a general perspective um and then the other thing just generally that in our experience with Neola is it's really great to have these bases it's great to have a start um and we frequently will you know weigh in on different options that districts have because you have a lot of choices in terms of like going back to what I said before the policy decisions that you're going to make so there's times where the newa policy will match the policy decisions the board makes and other times where it may not match there's times when Administration will say the newa policy is working great for us and there's other times the administration will say well we just tried to implement this and it's not working out for us so we need

148to make an adjustment so there is some flexibility and um like I said we're happy to to weigh in on this further when when we get some from Emily okay so I guess down for now I guess at this point in time we don't have we don't have the questions to I mean the answers to the questions that I asked so I I think we move forward I don't know if it makes sense my suggestion to the committee would to be moved forward with the um the staff ethics that we had mentioned earlier as is but then policy 3122 uh for non-discrimination Equal Employment Opportunity we postpone that for the next committee meeting and in postponing the action step that we need is to contact Emily and to talk about speech Provisions right speech is

149that what you're asking right I I want to know so that yes I can get you what you're you're really looking for I mean like the qu the questions I like to have those questions answered um like why the omission of you know acknowledgement that that staff happen to have a First Amendment right of compelled to um to refrain from speech okay and so your concerned are concerns are outlined in which which will which will policy that I could I could put in policy number 33 Okay so I could say more in line with policy 3 33 from well correct right um there are some questions about nea's verbiage and does it give the same protections that that policy 33 would give for staff for free speech is that what you're asking to refrain from

150compelled speech so sure yeah I mean that means I think there's some extra words that got put in this that necessarily aren't well title seven am I right let me ask this Rene Renee do you think you can help convey to Emily what it is that we're asking yeah we work as a team all the time you know Brian Emily and I and then Dan is is part of that team you know for the for the time being until his his official retirement but we work as a team all the time and so this is an issue that comes up really frequently and I just don't want to speak to it without you know being an employment expert so yeah absolutely I can and I'll let her know that this is on your minds and

151that you need additional information and we'll get it to you thank you appreciate that appreciate that yeah yeah of course any further discussion on that topic yeah just um Renee when that happens and I know Emily knows this make sure that the response when it comes back um is carbon copy to Margaret and myself U and and Lynn here um because uh we're the ones trying to uh pull all these things together for the board absolutely I'm making a note of that right now thank you for your late night uh Renee we appreciate your presence you oh I'm I'm happy to join you and we'll keep doing what we can to get the information to that you you need and if other things come up through your meeting tonight just let us know we'll follow

152up thank you take care everybody take care thanks for me um we're at lettery on the drug free workplace this was coming back from the previous uh session of policy um I was just kind of curious if uh Margaret may have some further clarification on on this one do we do we l you Margaret um I this I believe this was a Neola review the drug free workplace actually I think there were some questions about that I um this is uh whether or not the verbiage should be stricken what positives and negatives are and what if language might be recommended I yeah this one was supposed to be a legal councel um review oh yeah but but the um supporting email there again was going back to nondiscrimination right but and and there the reason

153why I added it here was because if you look at this one one line here it said we are comfortable with the changes to policy 3122 and 3122 okay so I don't know I was confused on that too I thought but you thank you no they just answered both things in the one email so I mean that that one I don't think deserves a ton of discussion on but I mean so we have our uh if it if we're happy if they're they're with the changes in the language we have uh is there anybody opposed striking of the off conduct or what was which one either June policy but as here I think I was here it was the it was the Striking of disciplinary action that may result if staff member conduct is being

154depict yeah put it this way I read through what's here and there been less the redacted portions I was okay okay with it okay I'm I know that was I think that was a question that Margaret had but I not sure but nonetheless if we're happy with or content with those um changes we move forward as a recommendation all right uh 2120 we're just still Cent cleaning some of the stuff up uh um was set aside to get some clarity on the verbiage with the HR department um is look ready to be looked at for first read I'm sorry where are you this is uh 1220 this is one that um we um to give you the background information I asked U when we were talking about this in policy committee when we were taking

155on them 1200s I said let's make sure that we double check this compared to contract language that we have in place that's right because we didn't want a policy right to have any changes that would enforce changes in our contracts that maybe you didn't want Margaret did uh have a look see um and uh we're able to go forward with uh what you see here so it it it it yeah it just goes along with the I wanted to double check I didn't want uh this policy to come back and then all of a sudden we are coming back to you with all the administrative contracts and going guess what you guys just made a change you didn't know about yeah right and so it works it meshes and now we're bringing it to you

156perfect I'm fine with those changes um I and I I was anticipating that much of this would go pretty much the same way um so so what you see in letter E and F you see the 300 the 3,000 group three and then you see a 4,000 group one the 3,000 group three that is there's a number of policies that don't have an existing match there's a couple that that um may actually have some may have some discussion or question about but in uh on letter F the 4,000 group one policy those are actually policy that are the um there's their mirror their mirror um to the professional staff policies but they're the support staff policy um sister brother twin whatever you want to call it um and so you've already passed the language in

157the 3000 for first read it's in second read this Mon and it's and now we're asking you to do that same thing for the support staff piece okay um and so you'll see a lot of that as we go from 3000s into 4000s um there may be small differences because professional staff have certain things according to contract that um you know support staff do not um but those would be the only difference really I'm GNA change things up a little bit here tonight um I reviewed them yeah and I didn't there was not something that I found objectionable among among all these policies um but I don't know if somebody else saw anything um in their review of these policies that they want to bring uh forward for discussion in both groups sorry in both

158groups no I I the ones that didn't have a matching USD I'm going to say that I trusted Lyn and Jared to you know move them over the ones that are a comparable one I read through those I compared them to what we had to make sure that there was nothing drastically different taking under of the assumption that new is acceptable and different might be problematic I didn't see any problems in the three or four that I reviewed compared to the old ones but I'll say that I didn't read every single one of them that didn't have I I read creating a position and I fell asleep immediately so I figured it was probably safe to take it uh the other ones so I didn't I mean I'll I'll approve them Craig but I didn't

159read through every single one of them the um I read through the ones that had a comparable there was one about uh there was one question about educator licensing um regarding the tier one and tier two um yeah I wasn't familiar with that so I didn't really know you want licensing so so Margaret do you wna uh go through um the connects to the law with the licensing tier so first of all I just want to say that is rare if we ever hire a tier one teacher um so that is uh for lack of a better term uh uh uh like a almost a temporary dead end type of license you'd have to go back and begin tier 2 preparation in order to really advance to get a permanent or a lifetime license so

160we um try pretty hard not to hire tier one because they're very limited in time and in practice so um other than that we uh we do comply with the DPI licensing as it relates to tier 2 licenses and I mean we have that going on right now where we are essentially cooperating with a tier 2 teacher who is seeking either additional certification or certification in a different area and in order to do that we have to uh verify that the person is U enrolled or in some type of formal uh program that will lead towards achievement of the additional license we have to verify employment and we have to provide clear and convincing evidence to DPI that we are monitoring the situation and tier 2 licenses need to um be completed within three years

161so by the end of that third year we need to verify that that person has completed all of the requirements that DPI has imposed on that individual for whatever license we are working with them to to achieve the license types themselves do change for example we have somebody working on a tier 2 that's uh going for bilingual certification we have had success with a couple of our teachers working under tier 2 licenses for special ed so this is just really uh a summary of our what we do to comply with DPI while somebody is under a tier 2 license all right thank you it seems like it it gives um HR the the the flexibility that they need to handle those particular situations so I I guess there's no objection for me on I just

162have one question on 3120 .08 employment Personnel for co-curricular extracurricular activities um the only question I had was that um siphon was crossed out and pay was inverted so I know we refer to I I I think as far as HR lingo and things like that we always say stifen and so I didn't know why the change if there's a reason behind or it's just we're going to change everything to that Margaret want to share yep I'm just pulling it up here Tina what what was your question what paragraph are you looking at it's 31208 yep third paragraph it's the third paragraph um it has stien is stricken and pay is put in there instead well I mean we have as some of you know a couple different uh terms for additional compensation we use

163stipend for some we use special compensation for others based on like the background for or the source of where the uh the extra pay is coming from I mean we I will say that we from an operational standpoint use that terminology for anything that's beyond base salary compensation I don't I don't know if that helps so so pay is just a broader term that incorporates the different kinds of pay a lot of what we do is stien pay for those kinds of activities but there are other pay sets that we come into um that we utilize so right like if a Coach we're just using a broader term instead of a narrow term does that make sense just using a more broad term than a narrow term yeah that's fine because it helps the policy

164oh okay I mean it just it just helps us to be you know I don't want somebody coming in and go well says here that we paid a stien my pay is not a stien am I supposed to be getting a stien too if you use pay it can mean stien it can mean bonus it can mean any kind of uh renumeration that we can think of of what pay for the employees so they know that hey they got paid for their coaching they do know that because in their letter of agreement they have they know what the the the total pay is going to be okay we do also have some uh o over and above activities or extracurricular co-curricular activities that are paid on an hourly basis you know on actual time worked

165as opposed to a a total stien that's distributed over a number of pay periods so using the pay terminology does allow for broader application of pay practices depending on the circumstance good thank you did you have any other ones I just had one other one and I am really sorry okay so back to letter b letter B B on the ncri 22 yeah oh okay my question my apologies there well you know we's let's get it we want we want to hear if there's other questions that I didn't raise the question I had was page five um the third paragraph 3122 what's that I'm sorry 3122 yeah love page five third paragraph um I know we had talked at one point I don't know what policy it was or anything like that but um we

166had talked about like this one says um you know five days is crossed out and a reasonable time period is put in there um right know we talked about wanting specific time frames in certain things but like I said I I can't remember if it was a different policy or what um because then the first paragraph after the word or so farther down there's also one that five is crossed out and 10 is put in I remember talking so I remember us talking about days and making sure that things were going to be consistent and so I just had found okay so what we will do is we will double check the the verbage that Dan gave us to talk about days for different because we yeah it's like one was going to go back

167we're we're gonna we're going to where where we can um try to be as consistent across all of our policies for timelines right and so we we will just double check that and and make sure if it if it's uh different as we move it forward uh that's fine we do know that um this one is being postponed anyway so we can also do that double check yeah that's fine that's fine thank you for bringing that forward we'll double check it I'm good I remember having that discussion what you don't want is to push yourself to a limit that you reach and then you're asking for you know so right we want to make sure that we're consistent y so I guess we captur the other action item on on 32 3122 just now right

168okay 3122 is to make sure their timelines are consistent with other timelines excellent did any unlet letterf okay hold on um let me just find it it was and I don't know if it's necessarily regarding the where is it oh we're on tnf the agenda sorry about that was an Athletics in here somewhere or am I thinking a different group thank you L up I think my only question I don't know why I can't find it I think it's uh oh there it is in the it's um I know we've been talking about the um and this is really I'm not even like specifically who whoa whoa wait wait wait wait oh sorry sorry you're you're on 53 31 it's in here yeah I think that was put put in there as um an indicator

169that this was a match of our of the proposed policy so but I mean if you're going to reference that particular one you're going to want to reference the co-curricular activities one that 31208 and make sure that that um that the question that you have lies with 3120.4 okay sorry I don't know if it will I guess I was just going to ask because when we talk about WIA where I get confused it's because we have sports that are not in WIA so it may be another time that we need to have that discussion but I get a little Lost in Translation when I'm because I don't know and when you're looking at okay so don't look at five so we're not approving yeah you that we're moving away from that policy of the 5

170uh and uh into 3120 perect okay that makes sorry I missed that that's where I got 320.0605 perfect right okay any other questions on those and then we're going to get rid of the driver's education one right thank you for mentioning that we just don't happen to have staff they're they're third parties if there's anything and it's outside of our district uh jurisdiction so it didn't make sense to include that policy as I understand it so okay uh letter G wait David okay letter G on the agenda I just included in here somebody else had um further discussion about the development process we we couldn't quite get through um the 30 to 35 that we we we aim for because well there's a limited amount of bandwidth but we came close great very close yeah

171yeah so I mean if you look at both sets and the other work that we did on the topic yeah yeah very close so um so do we need to set up a meeting is this our regular month or non regular month I can't keep Che anymore is our regular month sent an email yes um we post two dates the 8th and 9th of September as different dates to possibly have I'm sorry literally I've gotten more emails in the last so we're wondering if you're available the eth or 9th no it's the 9th or oh it's 9th or 10th okay so sep yes I [Music] remember 8 of September is a Sunday no 9th or 10th I was wrong you want to point it out again okay I just want to make sure I I'm

172available 10 I can't point out yeah I would assume like anybody else want toab I was listening ninth or 10th ninth or 10th I was in error by way nth or 10 I know that um typically I don't know if it's it applies now or not I know T Tina seems to have a challenge with Tuesdays unfortunately um it it didn't I my response was that either Monday or or Tuesday would work for me like I I okay so there's things you have to think about here um a lot of us have a number of different things um a number of different things within uh our September to try to find a date before the September board meeting these are the only two dates and I will tell you in giving you these two dates

173both ly and I again are you know um impacting some personal items so um just want you to know that I if Tuesday works for everybody else I just check out I'll be described for you if you get a bail so is either nth or 10th do we're good either the nth or the 10th um you do it the nth that would be awesome if I would prefer the nth because otherwise it's two meetings in one day I don't I want two Mee I don't know if I want to be with two people I mean we would prefer the ninth as well Lynn and I would but it's up to you guys I mean but those were literally when we sat down with those were the only two dates we had available this the ninth

174work for you Tina Monday I'm I'm not for sure okay so I guess we'll put it down uh as the nine hopefully Tina can join us um and we'll move move forward with that any other questions regarding the process all right we'll work on it that's all I can say you're Jour you come or was it the planning on Monday was uh 240 I got ed services done in 235 you're at 238 so you're raing sure in The Sweet Spot well pretty consistent wa started I think we going to be here before 10 hey quit stalling and we'll get done with this it's 809 now we are we stand a Jour tell me twice I'm last