001after that start scratching somebody else's eyes she said I think you need so like oh you're right I probably earned that one so I I do know that uh Rene is is scheduled to be here I think in person so we'll just keep an eye out for her Renee is a woman and she is our attorney um through I see it is it is yeah yeah grab a sure y sure yeah yeah there's not too many people who uh come to our our um committee meetings but uh which is why we don't anticipate a large crowd but uh we'll we'll we'll put out if we need [Music] them so do we it's G to be your call she is here to support you guys and answer any questions who have um she did Supply an
002email right that's attached along with the the drafts that are available but um should you have questions she's supposed to be here maybe she ran into SE traffic or something that I don't see a a response from her when are you close right close to being ready I'm ready you're ready all right time is off 5:30 I call this a meeting of the policy Review Committee to order um in reviewing the agenda considering we we perhaps wanted to have our attorney present um would have the will of the committee to jump to letter C in our agenda for the time being okay sure sure that's fine okay all right go ahead no go ahead I say in letter C you can see that we have four of our 3000 Series um Margaret uh or diligently
003to prepare those for you so those would be the next set in the HR policy grouping for you that will leave one group left that will will have um as we go into next month we're hoping to finish up the 300s and maybe even the 4000s as we get into October um the 4000s is group two uh those go along with their their partner 3,000 group remember the 3000s is your professional staff policies that relate to professional staff and your 4,000 our support staff um so a lot of mirroring happens there is some uh small wording differences um based on uh things afforded to or how we uh deal with uh contracted uh workers professional workers versus non-contract or um support staff workers so um that's what C and drr for uh we're focused on
004C right now if there any questions Margaret's here avail ailable for you online to answer any questions you may have was there any questions or uh comments that anybody had regarding Neola policy 3000 group four I just have one question sure um on policy 3112 y um I just as I was reading that I just questions I mean I'm not questioning the wording of the policy or anything like that um I was just taking a look at it in the lens of um as it's like okay board Communications to staff but then how does that work you know like if we're you know working on more visibility in the buildings and things like that as as Schoolboard members and we have the you know see something say something and they're talking to us about stuff
005like what I just don't know how those two things yeah I felt like there was just this yeah okay what what specific question might you have like so if they're talking to us about so maybe um um okay student Behavior that's been a topic of you know a lot of different things and so they're talk maybe they um you know you're just kind of going through introduced I usually introduce myself say what you know um committees I'm a part of and things like that and um you know sometimes they'll they'll talk about like a student Behavior situation and they're you know perhaps not getting resolution from their building and so they're like okay well now what can I do or where can I go or you know things like that and so if they're talking
006to us about those things is that in um conflict with this policy or is it not well I guess I guess I was just wondering I mean I guess to get some clarification from your question um in that particular situation would would the board memb still be redirecting that to the superintendent or Administration um as they what if they say they've gotten like they haven't gotten a response or something like that well I mean there I mean that that te that's a technical question about procedure right and you're as a board member we're going to guide that procedure question according to board policy are we not so so I I would say that particular as long as it's within you're you're describing the procedure by which to follow that should be permissible underboard policy so
007I I think what this comes down to is more like your question is how do I act in a situation when a staff member comes to me right like as as a board member right so I guess what this policy is saying is that you you you listen but you say I'm going to listen to this but I'm going to direct you to our policy our policy says that you will follow this uh communication uh scope and sequence which is basically Chain of Command right um and then because the policy says those should go through the to the superintendent your job then is board members to make me aware right and say so I can go oh okay so that's the information that you got so that I can then take the steps that are
008needed to follow up and follow through and go to the staff member and say you know hey uh this information came to me uh through a board uh uh member they shared with you to take it through the chain of command that it has to I'm just checking in that you're you're following through that so that communication is is streamed through our policy the way we want or are intending to okay um that's that's what I see in a nutshell um and that that's not really any different than how we've been interacting with that um so that's why I was like confused like okay so if the question is how do I deal with that well the policy says um you're just going to uh tell tell the staff that there is a chain of
009command that you should continue to utilize or try to utilize and also it makes or ensures that you're sharing with me um that piece of information so that I can internally follow up on that uh for you as a board member or or the board in general as a whole right about that no no the the policy's new but it it really does it it's just doing what we already do anyway yeah but in in uh in that particular example where jir just shared you would you know you would think that um if if there's a failure of communication breakdown communication superintendent should know about that so that at least hey especially if I'm a breakdown that particular that particular message didn't make it out all and uh but so it's not necessarily that there's
010going to be a disciplinary option because they came to I think is that kind of where you were yeah like you don't want to oh you didn't follow the policy now we're going to write you up because you went to a board that you know what I'm saying like I think that's what I was kind of getting from Tina's P you know the policy says this if they were to come to us and even though we could redirect them to you they technically didn't file a poli you yeah I I think I I've shared many many many times uh that my interest is not in you know um you know walking with a large stick and punishing people for not thought I just want to make sure that we have good policy in place keep
011redirecting us back to appropriate procedures right I mean like I I've never shown that I've been one that's been harsh with the stick and saying hey you didn't follow policy now you're written up I mean sometimes they may have followed policy and they just don't know if they've gotten a response or where it ended up exactly and that's fine too my my question I didn't have any originally on this one but related to that if somebody approaches me about buildings and grounds and I know that it's going to end up going to Sarah they approaching me about curriculum and I know it's going to go to Jenny or if they approach me about an HR matter I know it's going to go to Margaret or to the committee chair would my course of action as
012a board still to go to Jared even though that it's going to clearly be a curriculum question for Jenny and and it says in the policy it says the superintendent which is you and obviously it would make it to Jenny or it make it to Margaret or make it to Sarah it's just that that's just one more person that has to get involved in it and I'm all when I've been approached about Personnel uh specific complaints my question is have you talked to your building principal and has that building principal talk to the superintendent I mean I'll I'll you can bounce ideas off me but I'm just going to tell you to follow the chain of command in these situations if it's you know hey why is you know whatever the example is but some
013of those are obviously related to curriculum or or buildings and grounds or to HR and I'm just asking the policy can stay as is but just I may call Jenny and say hey Jenny what do you think about this and Skip you but I can call you and make it your problem yeah well and and honestly I I think right now as it's written I would prefer that only because um you know easy know if I don't know I can't yeah your help you're taking the one person that you have direct control over in the situation the only and one person that you guys have direct and you're cutting them out of the ability to help right not a problem and which then which then undercuts your ability to do something about it if you
014put me in the loop and it still doesn't happen then there's a place that you can you can affect if you're not putting me in the loop and it doesn't happen I'm gonna say well you didn't put me in the loop in the first place how are you gonna hold me accountable to that you know or anybody else in the system so um you know that's why the policy reads the way it is um to to make sure that you have a control point in the situation that control Point remains me right and then my job is to make sure that that communication continues and and flows and does what it is and if if not then you can do something about that if you skip me you really don't have much recourse you know
015and I just will call attention to that butter B is board Communications to the staff so so that would be a board member initiated conversation to a staff member in which case that you know you kind of wonder if that's appropriate conversation to begin with you know with both of those is is and I understand this but sit down yeah sit down one is that we need to policies last a long time and not saying you're you're not be here forever I'm not I don't plan on being here forever we can't say this policy works for Jared it has to work for whoever is in that position um and I'm wondering if the word shall um we should have should instead uh or committees should be submitted through the superintendent we who um you know
016and I say should instead of shall because I don't want it to shall seems very specific and determinative and I agree with you this is the way you want it to be um but I don't want to I don't want to staff or reading this going okay I can't I'm not comfortable with J so I can't talk to anyone which is the circumstance we've had in the past and that's why I thought loosening up that language a little bit might be better but I I'll just throw that out there as an idea yeah again if if you want to do that that's the the your prerogative isore just reminding you that when and if you you cut out the superintendent from the what I'm saying is it could have that effect yeah when it does
017right then you're really hamstringing your ability to have really you know recourse with that within a performance standard right um and and again that's that's Let Me Maybe I'm not explaining this properly I don't want a policy to shut down the conversation entirely so to read the policy and say I'm not even going to have the conversation I'm not going to bring this up because and I know it says you know we don't want this to stop conversation but I don't want a policy to have them read that and go okay I can't do that I can't talk to them you can and that's that's my concern with that is just we making sure that we still have them allow them the ability to go I can approach a board member you know but I
018don't know how we do that within the confli of yeah yeah I I kind of agree with you too I mean just in the sense of okay does this does this policy or that particular wording limit a board member just to like approach a staff member to be friendly and say how's your school year going you know what I mean so you're not supposed to do that no that's not what it's talking about yeah no that's that's not the kind of communication this is talking about matter of fact that's indicated is sure this is all commun all official Communications so if you're a board member well but of the board of the board remember it says of the board so I so that would be anything from the board you know this is a directive
019specifically from the board it's a board member we do not call out individual board members here you'd be just a member of the community going hey how how's your deer going right but if we're operating as the board Communications from the board to staff have to go through the superintendent that I'm okay with sure okay so is there a specific suggestion that needs to be maybe reading it that way the board and it's committed you're taking it as the official stance of the entire board not an individual board member so I think I could see where we're going away from that to what Jared's saying is the official statement to the board needs to come to superintendent okay so we're comfortable with the language I okay yeah argued myself for my own Point yeah and
020just remember item C talks about those social interactions that you're talking okay um and outlines you know uh just what your concern was I mean the expectation is that you're going to you're going to have social interactions with people and and have those discussions that's not what this is about okay okay great thanks any other objections to all right was there uh just so that we kind of tie a bow around some of this um in the three Neola policies of 3000 group 4 was there any other questions concerns or objections to any of those policies moving forward for uh recommendation at the uh September board meeting I I'll make one comment which I I don't want to say that I say argued myself out of I'm looking at it most of these policies start
021with the board shall um just looking at 3419 the board shall discretion to establish and maintain group health plans if I was writing that for my company I would be writing that more in the third person and say the wusd or the district shall have uh established and maintain group plans most of these very very specific to first person the board and I just wanted to make sure that we read it that way we understand it that way we like it that way I was tossing between should we just say the district will ensure because but then that spreads the responsibility to more than just the district it might take a little bit of responsibility off of us put a little bit more on staff and then treat it more as this enigmatic you know
022monolithic being that hey we will provide but who are we who is the board who is the staff I'm just bringing it up because when you read it that puts the board front and center on every single microscopic decision up to the board shall have discretion to establish a maintain group health plans but we defer all those to people who actually know what they're doing well we do and we don't some of these things happen if you read through each one of these things we allow Jared Andor Administration to then pick the health plan that's going to be offered or or what have you um I'm just saying across the board lowercase b um it just seems like it's a it's not the way I would have worded it but it's not I don't want
023to say worth arguing about it or not it's not an argument it's I don't want to say it's not worth discussing I just want everybody to read it the way that I read it and say yeah that makes sense so can I throw an explanation what I believe the explan explanation may be um I think that Neola would probably um have the recommendations coming forward that would um basically if if it was an instance where um Authority is delegated away that would be spelled out into the into the actual policy itself and I do believe that uh in this particular case when it comes to Group Health plans and benefits that is a statutory obligation for for the state to say this the board is tasked with these types of of things so unless unless
024it is specifically delegated away in policy um the the language is correct in my opinion but I mean no I and that's why it was more of a footnote I don't think I'd spend much effort trying to change it because if you switch it from the board to the wsd then who are they I think I think it hinges on the word discretion the board is the one who sets things in place and that's where discretion Falls underneath the board the wsd does not have discretion right and they well and in your employee manual and my employee manual and everybody's Company employee manual it probably says the company okay and then and then there's going to be somebody at the company who's making decisions it doesn't say the CEO it doesn't say the CFO it
025says the company and in this situation it's not saying the company it's saying the board and and essentially if if if those are synonymous the company and the wusd these are worded weirdly but not inappropriately I just notice it as being something that's a little bit odd but CRCT to your point that is our responsibility the board is fine I just want to just point out that it's different than the way I would have expected it but not a problem just I just want to be sure he's seing it the same way I am or at least seen it not the same way I am so no that was just a comment right I'm good with the rest of the policies I read these and didn't bother with the 4000s because I checked and they're
026almost identical all righty um hearing no other objections I would um SE would be appropriate then for us to go back to letter A in our um and just a point of question these are going to then go to all these are all first reads at the next board meeting yes group four is yes 4000 I'm sorry so is the 4,000 group we speak it uh C and D C and D are all that's okay I just wanted to clarify where they're going to show up okay yeah I don't want to um thanks jump around too much I guess but uh we're going to pick up at the beginning of our agenda where we um at letter A where we talk about um the the administrative guidelines regarding transgender students um you will see three
027drafts there and it was my understanding that draft a was from the the procedural guidelines that was brought forth from administration at the last board meeting or committee meeting rather dra P there's a little section uh D in draft e which um there was some changes to the language there however uh not all of the concerns brought forth by the uh committee at that time uh regarding the draft were actually addressed in draft B uh draft s was a draft that uh Sam had put together and uh Renee had also commented on when when it came to some of those um draft discussions and points um and I guess we would probably pick it up on there um do we need to spend a lot of time on draft a considering we had much discussion
028about that at last committee meeting I think the uh I think the reason we drew up those alternative drafts was because our idea like you suggested David was to present two of them at the general board meeting and have a vote of some sort but between two of them and then uh I a draft as is just kind of a further modific of draft B to address some of the other concerns because draft B is just kind of it's just a clause change about BS and locker rooms so is there a a um do we just have three drafts a b and s or is there one that attempted to I saw some of the correspondence and additional changes and then emails so is there a document that we're now looking at or are we
029still trying to merge a couple of documents at this point well I think I think that's it I think we're trying to have a discussion about where where we're coming together on some of these uh documents at this point okay uh for a recommendation for the board um you know if the is it draft B and S that's going forward as a recommendation to the board for a discussion is it just Draft A and S or is it just one of the drafts that's coming forward um with some modification to the language with any one of these particular drafts um I guess that's that's [Music] where I would hope the conversation goes at some point so we need to pick two so that the board has two options to choose from whether one it leans
030towards well if we if we still have um if we still have concerns as a committee where there's division among the committee on on the necessity of having uh two uh two drafts to move forward then then I would still I would still support that you know uh but if there's if if we can come together as committee and recommend one draft to the go to the board that would probably be ideal so um the comments in the administrative content Renee I don't know if those were yours or there's another attorney who was out here in Emily I don't know which ones were which I wasn't reading from top to bottom so it depends on which policy so yeah this one it's it's those are my recommendations Emily worked on the employment one got it
031okay sorry um so the most recent one that has the oh that yeah from name um you wrote that on Sunday September a you had some feedback to Sam and to Jared and Sarah and there's some things in bold some things in italics just comments more or less on draft s if I understood that corre right so the Bold is the draft s that came to us and then the comments okay for consideration so if this was still keeping with I'll say sam the how we've edited other policies is one more iteration due in order to present a uh an alternative to draft B because now that we've had the attorney weigh in on draft S I would think that it goes back to Sam and Jared and the attorney to see if there's wiggled
032room on draft s to incorporate the attorney's comments or and if we're at an impass then Craig we're probably at a point where we have to discuss it at committee but if the attorney's commment can be incorporated into draft s then then it might meet all of our needs right and and then we still have it to compare to be but now it's a wholly or I'll say sam supports it the attorney supports it in which case now we know it's a legitimate document as opposed to still there being differences between Sam and the attorney who's and Sam being the sponsor of it but I don't know where we were in that process given that J just came out yesterday yeah um I mean I took some time to look at it so I could
033I guess I could hop hop on and get it started there so I really appreciate all of the effort that you put into this I asked you to give me uh some background information about like the logic behind some of those proposals and that really helps me when I'm looking at it because it clears up some of the potential confusion I could have so um I think that just going through uh from top to bottom so your recommendation for uh item one purpose uh adding that the board believes students should be feel safe and secure in the school environment and the board respects their right to privacy including but not limited to privacy as it pertains to the use of District facilities I think that's great so um I was on board with that uh
034I think if I understand your point about um item two definitions and clarifying with the definition of sex uh original sex um I would say original sex observed at Birth would probably be the better way to phrase it in this uh in this draft um I think that works really well but I think think I personally think it would be beneficial to keep all three of those definitions and not to shrink it down could you give me a little bit more background on that sure so at the outset and I know I've said this several times before but there are significant policy decisions to be made so we look at what's a board or a board memb policy goal and then we can tell you here are suggestions we have for reaching that policy goal
035so draft a and draft s have very different policy goals in mind we represent districts telling us we'd like to go with a draft a and we can tell them here are recommendations that we can give you to try to achieve those goals same thing with draft s here are recommendations we can give you to try to achieve those goals and specifically because um we there's a lot of recent experience in either creating guidelines resolutions policies that have not been challenged because of the way they're written um or have been challenged and we're defending that challenge so the recommendations you see here are from those districts gotta and I've asked them in advance um for level with my sharing this and some of it's public but those would be Magano and wakashaw and so because
036we've assisted them um with these types of issues some of the language that most actually all the language that we're recommending is because we've had some experience there but you still you're your own board so if you want to do something different than you can and those types of phrases that can be documented that are um you know if you use the phrases that that we've recommended from those policies you're in a spot where if you said I want to figure out how to prove this or I want to find out then you could ask for example for a birth certificate now birth certific can be changed but that's a linky process so um and I don't want to speak for other boards or what their decisions have been but it's an objective yeah we
037can get a document or evidence it's it's it's an easy way to provide Clarity and yeah so I would be per from from the perspective of the person who is working on draft ass I would be happy to include the phrase original sex observed at Birth um in the definition one under definitions why why not as a sign uh because sex is a biological fact right sex is not gender which is a a linguistic concept uh sex is biological in nature so it's not something that is assigned unless you have a larger metaphysical belief that like God assigns it or something but sex is just something that you have gender is something that is related to language so you wouldn't have a sex that's assigned to you you would have one that is observed when
038you come out of the womb can I ask observe what if I blind or I don't know the difference between a male and a female in which case observation can we use the word documented at Birth that goes back to Rene's Point that's what's in your version okay I I get it that maybe there's some wiggle room in the term assigned higher power or I'm just feeling saucy that day so put the wrong well yeah a doctor doesn't assign it a doctor observes obes many documents in which case the word document gets rid of or it's a blend of assigned and observed and then it's documented but I i' I'd be more with Fred that says I don't like the observed part just because it's a little bit too loose I understand you're concerned with
039the word assed I'm asking Renee is documented at Birth acceptable unless it's not documented we have no idea what's going to be acceptable but what we are looking to is the 11 circuit so if you have board members saying we want to follow the 11 circuit pattern y we look to 11 circuit language and it's brief and specific and so I I I don't know that a documented verses and assigned is going to make a significant difference but we don't know okay yeah I guess I'm inclined these things I mean I don't think any of us have a law degree or have experience in a you know a law office so I you know typically there is a reason for the words that are used exactly how they are recommended and so if we are
040asking our you know professional um you know for help in this area I mean there's a reason that she's there's a reason you're making these recommendations there is and we didn't make them up right I mean it's based on what we've seen in the courts as the law has developed and will continue to develop and and I I'd caution us on on some things here um because I do think that we're asking questions we're trying to understand we're seeking to understand uh and if we're not asking questions to to you know that to seek a the correct answer um then you know who's to say uh somebody from author authoritative position is correct yep the question was never asked just saying it crosses a certain line where well you can ask the question but it
041just have to take it from credible source as I mean as a what do you want to call uh commonly used phrase assigned at Birth um and I I just saw another one uh that in a collegia atmosphere where the teacher the professor introduced themselves as assigned at Birth it's it's the term that's used for documented observed it's a catchall I would be inclined to use as written here assign at Birth not to change it to observe because there's I don't see any real benefit to it from a policy perspective yeah I mean I think that it carries with it a certain uh it carries with it a certain worldview and that's where some of the concern comes in in the community and Across the Nation really is that there's there's a world viiew that
042goes along with this that is that some people have strong disagreements with and so the idea of assignment of sex speaks to a sort of uh subjective experience of reality and so if we speak about assignment of gender that's a different discussion because that like I said it's a linguistic concept but sex itself being a biological material reality is not something that can be arbitrarily assigned by another person's thoughts I agree agree with everything you're saying hold on I just if the courts use that word then I would like to stick with the courts I understand exactly yeah it shouldn't be an assignment shouldn't be an option it is what it is but the the word that the carts use is assigned you want to use obser I mean is is using documentation going to
043get it is that going to create some sort of like nightmare scenario is we don't but as it relates to that it's just what we've seen before if somebody else comes up with something else and says help us to defend this then then we will and we'll describe what the will of the board is and how you've described the reasons for using the language that you use so it's a recommend it's not like a this is really important in terms of the you know language in the idea for example where if you use different language then it will be a problem this is a we're just drawing on what we've seen legal phrasing that is that is means a specific thing that has to be that you can't vary from that's what we've seen so
044far we've seen different words used we're just pulling from them and letting you all know here's what we've seen in the past here's what other districts we're working with have used so those are options for you Lor it's kind of far out there but does every birth have a sex now on the birth certificate I understand is that may not be the case so I don't know the answer to that okay yeah I don't I don't know if I have nothing to base it on that's right what I read but I didn't know if that yeah you know where the assigned or documented or observed that's where that can get but I mean to me I'm fine with a sign that's how I've always knowned it but I don't know if that means something to
045him I have not worked with the district yet having provided me with document that doesn't have okay one SE um personally I I think it's splitting hairs personally um I think it's getting at the the root of the intention here is to um I mean if if we have hang up with a signed at Birth is there a hang up with the term biological sex and the reason that I proposed uh observed at Birth is because biological sex is a redundancy sex is biological is no other form of sex other than the biological um so again it's the difference between gender gender is linguistic sex is biological by Nature it would be like saying uh a material Stone as opposed to a non-material stone like there's only one kind you know um I I understand
046yeah but does it get to the the nature of what it's trying to allude to but you know as far back to um your your biology as possible yeah um I mean I guess I would ask the other members of the committee and the board how they feel about biological sex versus sex observed at Birth or sex documented at Birth and where they would take it and I think the majority I guess I defer to the committee on where the majority of the committee would lie between those two terms for draft ass well I'm just going to throw back out to B to um as doed birth because of the settings that that follows this um where it says that um provides a standard that can be supported by documented evidence by having documented at
047Birth we we go to we have documented evidence we want to see that marry the two up so that gives you hey look we want to see documented evidence on this I think that gets us to the where we need to go okay with it is there I'm good with you the attorney's recommendations and the quotations yeah so I'm I'm fine with either of those two augmenting the draft S one two and three or they're expounding on them so I'd like to stick with one of those two just because they've been used and are generally accepted legal terms I wouldn't want to start deviating from them to causing me gray areas sure well then I would say go with biological sex if you guys want to choose between those two I think biological sex is
048probably the clearer definition that's for me that was my first thought but that works open okay yeah um then we have a bathrooms locker rooms um you recommended the uh appr phrasing that allows for an exception or exemption uh uh situation um a sort of accommodation um I I think that this kind of gets the heart of where many people in the community have uh been reaching out to me and talking to me about the situation and I think that providing I think it creates a sticky situation because you know as as I've had certain members of the community say to me um and I'm going to quote them verba uh a man in the locker room with my little girl to hell with that so the issue of having the the issue of allowing
049a circumstance like that to happen especially without the explicit notice being given to the parents who may object to that sort of situation that gets really difficult so um that's why because I had I thought some of this language looks familiar I had looked over some of those things but I wasn't sure how that would end up working out with where the kind of uh where where the chips are falling you know across the board in the country and in in the district uh so can you give me some more information about that right the district's adopting a process so it's as I said in the email it's not that there will be an exception it's that there's a process in case somebody objects so if somebody objects and they say I I believe an
050accommodation is necessary there's a process to um to achieve that conversation and it helps the district to understand that student's individual and unique circumstance because it's possible that there are other ways that that student can be accommodated or supported and it helps the it helps the district have information about that situation and when we look at the reason other districts have adopted those types of Provisions I gave you a couple of examples but it could be whatever process the committee or the board wanted um and it could be that there is no process however if there's a challenge again we look to the 11th circuit we look to distinguishing cases from the seventh circuit where that's the board's goal and if we're looking to the 11 circuit and distinguishing from Seven circuit facts and circumstances
051one key provision of that is that there's a process by which we can otherwise support a student and find out the totality of the circumstances but it doesn't ensure that there's going to be an exception it just says here's the process you follow if you have a concern or if you think that things should be different for your child individually and that could also include not that I didn't put it in here but there's other districts that will put um guano's policy for example mentions 504 process if there's gender dysphoria then the 504 team would potentially be looking at that and there would be that process to follow so we just get the processes out there and that can be helpful in a as it the direction the board wants to go I know I
052know I'm just letting people know um yeah the the um I am in support of a process if that if that is um helpful in that particular situation I'm just not sure that I am comfortable with with the language of an exception uh because I I view personally that a gender neutral bathroom by definition is the exception no that is the com this does not State what the exception is just that one can exist so to your point if you have a cisgender male who doesn't want to be in the male locker room right and you're going to apply for an exception it doesn't mean that they automatically go into the girls locker room it goes they get an exception to not being the boy's locker room and whatever the superintendent the administration determines that
053exception is that's what that is having the ability to an exception doesn't DeMark what that exception is going to end up being yeah that that's that's true and that's exactly my point as well I would prefer that we take a little bit more of a Firm Stance on that because um the exception should not be girls a boys in girl spaces that's that's what I would also caution the committee here to we talked a lot about boys and girls spaces and there has been no consideration of girls and boys spaces this has to go both way yes absolutely it does we need to consider both of those things sure right on your on the point about providing an alternate um if I'm not mistaken case law would strike that down and you'd lose that's according
054to the seventh circuit and if we following I'm saying that I'm not say saying in seventh and 11th I'm saying is that for my understanding and Renee you can correct me on this but if when I'm uh a general a gender neutral bathroom as my accommodation for you is not an acceptable uh accommodation I have to be able to allow you to go into the gender the bathroom of your choice I'm not that's a question I understood that that's been asked challenged whether it be by adults whether it be by students whether it be at the YMCA and it loses every time if I do not accommodate your request to be in the bathroom of my choice I'm not I'm just this is not a question for policy this is a question for legal no
055and but I I'll follow that question up with one of my own questions too is okay now you throw that out there in the situation where okay um you have to make available any particular facility for a particular child to use um according to an exception or a plan then what's the recourse for all of the other families that are uncomfortable putting their children in that situation if we're if we're equipped to happen to have communal bathrooms that are segregated for original sex or biological sex that's what we're equipped for logistically yep and to make an exception to that all of us we're not equipped to have parents that are uncomfortable with their children attending a a facility that happens to have the opposite biological sex in there we're just not equipped to have all
056of the gender neutral bathrooms in our entire District to do that so so let's say that that's Part B of my question sure so part A it it really does go back to the same thing in the seventh circuit right now the seventh circuit would say that that's not permissible right now under the facts and circumstances so far presented to the seventh circuit okay so there's also the 11th circuit and there's also ongoing litigation right now where we are talking about distinguishing factual situations for individual children because it's not um many would argue that it's not just a one-size fits-all that there could be a student who suffers harm and injury because not able to have an exception but there could be again other types of accommodations that are provided and so that's what is
057litigated right now and so in the seven circuit so we don't know what's going to happen with that our argument in that case is that the 11th circuit standards should apply and that not every student is in the exact same situated exactly the same as the student in Whitaker that's the seventh circuit case that we're talking about so let me I'll ask the question just one more time maybe are there any situations where an entity has been sued for uh directing a trans uh individual to a a uh nondescript bathroom they sued and said I don't belong in that bathroom I belong in the one that I chose are there any situations where that's been defended and won not yet in seventh circuit yes in the 11th circuit okay but there has been the 11th
058okay thank you okay so on the 11th there is some precedence that says that we do not have to accommodate the choice for me to go into your bathroom there is precedence in the 11 right okay thank you but not precedence and the same thing in said right right okay I just want to understand which hey I just want to know how thin the legal ice I'm standing on well there's there's so many other pieces of this and I don't I don't want get too much into the weeds if people don't want to get too much into the weeds but then we also have injunctions you know it would be and recent Supreme Court activity looking like nine justices may go One Direction um which is unusual in terms of whether Title Nine applies and
059then there's the loer cas that we talked about last time where you know what is agency it's just there's just a lot of unknowns here more so than I think anything we've really experienced what I just handed David I just had a print out copy of it because I was reading through it earlier uh but to your point about the on a federal level um there has been some indication from from them concerning the title mind changes uh that would kind of take sweeping effect lower rulings yeah and uh they're they've indicated they've indicated directions about a variety of these topics and I think that that's that's worth your while to read um yeah like you said without getting too into it so I would recommend it's only if you blow it up to full
060page You' probably be five no I don't have a problem I just want on this specific portion of option A or option b or an exception or a request to exception I'd like to give the district the wiggle room to say okay this is what we're going to do on a case-by casee basis I wouldn't come down hard line and say we will never accommodate i w I wouldn't want to come down hard line and say that we're always going to accommodate I like to give ourselves the opportunity to look at the situation and say this is what makes the most sense and try to find out what that accommodation is by people who are going to be routinely briefed on new information like this ruling uh because in two months there could be another
061situation and another yeah and so case-by case basis Keeps Us in a position where we can live with it or I can and and the people who are going to be assigned and in this option A has at least six different people uh school psychologist school counselor cast teacher building principal uh director of student services and any other individuals who the district deems appropriate to all be involved in saying okay what are we going to do in this particular case I don't see why this is a bad thing for us to incorporate in our policy because then new information can be taken into account otherwise without it you're locking yourself into whatever is current precedence today and that just seems risky so M Tina I know you're we um we currently currently it's managed and
062we haven't had issues correct okay so there's been a process in place and it's worked well and you guys had the communication and things like that to be able to work with students and their families okay is there a law in Wisconsin that states that you have to use like as an adult is there a law or statute that states that I have to use the women's restroom estate law no there's people we're talking about students you know there's student non-discrimination and right now state law only mentions sexual orientation um so we're looking primarily at federal laws and how the federal laws are developing and then um a lot of people will argue that those state laws regarding non-discrimination anti-harassment anti-bullying will help to protect all students who Express a concern we still have conflict
063of Rights in lots of situations is a federal is there a federal is there a law saying like that I have to use the women's restroom Title 9 allows separate facilities but there's not I mean there's not an affirmative restroom law so as an adult I could go use the men's room I I I don't know I mean I don't I don't I don't I don't that question to me I don't do that I I I work with students so I hadn't really given much consideration to people were asking me that they're like okay well you know is there really a state law that says you know I mean I you know there's usually a restroom that I use but um you know is it I only work with this in the school context so
064yeah I I don't know how relevant that discussion is at this point um you know I I I respect the question um I I I see where you're going but let try sure Fred did you have a question I'm just I'm kind of coming back to where um I think about the the volume of students that we have this would fall under um and the amount of discussion that we're having on this and whether we should give an exception or not um we this is a minuscule population and what we're saying is you we're putting process the the reason to have an exception that has to go through parents the entire Administration effectively uh and then it it isn't card launch to be granted uh so I don't know if there's a harm in being
065able to have on the books a way to have an exception uh and not and you know um and if Jared is help me anything in my time here it's that um binding his hands with policy and giving very specific policy limit his Effectiveness um so I would look to keeping that as you can have an exception but we leave that until the court tell dictates to us what that has to be leave it up to to the administration and if Jared says hey look this is an exception that comes through I'm going to bring this to the board let the board know that this is going to happen then you know we have that I don't see I don't see a I don't see the need for us to need an exception or not
066see so I guess my my argument is if there's a process for which to go through to evaluate a Comm ation I would support that I I guess I don't necessarily support the the the terminology exception because and and all of the language whether it's Administration all the school principal classroom teacher other individuals it's all the district making that determination in conjunction with that child and their parent and um yet there is nothing in here for the other students that share that space nothing so that's where I have my issue are we going to then out of the spirit of equity give everybody a a bathroom and restroom facilities use plan just asking the question because if they if they request it because I don't want to I I don't feel comfortable in the space
067where are we going with that we're opening up Pandora box well again I come back to you know I've got a handful of students that this applies to and we haven't had any of them who who've applied for an exception um but I know of that you know and I understand what the the this is a larger issue here but again I think as what as putting this in place what it does is it provides it gives it back to the superintendent to make that determination let me say it it's like it's it's like anything else we have you know we allow exceptions to but but policy is is intended to provide some direction for the administration to move and this doesn't provide that I do think that you that perhaps draft a does if
068if that just means that this is a separate one that needs to be discussed at the board level I understand that go ahead yeah can I can I speak that because I I totally hear where you're coming from I really understand it I I think that the way that it's present in most people's minds is if there um if there if there's a boys locker room let's say to switch up the scenario if there's a boys locker room with 29 Boys in it right Fe males in it and then there's one female that would like an exception to enter that locker room it's not one student who's affected it's 30 students who are affected because every student in that locker room is affected and every family of every student in that locker room is affected
069so the difficulty comes with are are do families not have the right to be informed about the fact that this thing which many people view as a violation of their child's privacy is being enacted what's the what is the limit on that if we allow an exception it undoes the entire EOS your engine or allow I'm not saying we allow an exception or not I'm saying we put in a process that you can review an exception MH by saying we're not going to have an exception process which means there is no means by which they can address this and ask for any sort of accommodation whether it's allowed or not is up to determination by the administration the superintendent everything that's not for us I'm saying is process if we don't have a process for
070this there is no means remember when we were just talking about 3112 when we talked about with the with the the U staff talking to the board if we say there is no means that's that part three at the bottom that is crucial if we don't have that there is no way for the staff to talk to the board at all it says don't talk to the board you go through the superintendent the part three in the bottom says that's the exception to the parts up above that says we're putting a process in place to allow you to talk to the board same thing here I'm not saying we allow exceptions that allowing exceptions is a separate thing but I'm saying for the purposes of the policy is to put a process in place to
071have your questions redressed by the administration okay and to that BR I see your point yeah I I and I understand what the what your intentions are but I I'm not I'm confused by this particular language that it conveys that option A or option b so can I make for this uh for so because this is the the bill that I was sponsoring ultimately and uh I'm associated with this um allow me to uh propose an idea here so I hear what you're saying Craig I hear what you're saying uh Fred I think it's I I think you're making really really good points How about if we're looking at option A for the bathroom for the add-on for the bathroom student Andor parent requests for an and then strike exception or and just an accommodation
072to this guideline shall be considered because I think clear up what do you think Craig if you remove the language of exception I think that that gives it a little bit more clarity I think it's a little bit more straightforward I I think that would be appropriate yeah reest for an accommodation it gets the gets the concern gets the point of a process by which and it still keeps in the language about having that process that is that's conducted and I'm not seeing you win I'm not wincing the recommendation and again it's only a recommendation so that you get the information that you need to assess your risk and you can take students concerns on an individual basis and Sam's option A with you striking an exception or and just say accommodation that works for
073me would you say that this is kind of Uncharted Territory to a certain degree what we're dealing with here we've charted it before and the some samples you have are just two examples of boards who have discussed it and decided that's the language that that they liked um so there's a lot of options there and that's more what I'm it doesn't seem like compared to other areas of law it seems like this is a relatively new area that you're going to daily it's right and it's developing literally every day yeah so yeah okay side question but I want uh Sam brought up the example of 29 and one are there any is there any case law where the 29 have been need to be have fought and won lost by not being adequately informed in
074either the 7th the 11th or across the country that questions intrigued me from day one when the first situation happened in Pennsylvania 10 years ago or something like that I'm like what happened to the rights of the 29 versus the rights of the one and what are their rights to know and what are their rights of the individual for privacy and I don't know where the courts fall I'm not trying to get that into this document that's why it's a side question and I don't want to go too tangental is gonna be you know but you brought it up I just I want to know what your legal experience or precedence is on that yeah so so far it's been challenging for other students to prove an injury occurred however uh the Kansas district court
075case where there you all are probably aware of the injunction and you're on the list um in that case that opened the door because there was one particular plaintiff in that PL case talking about about said injury in bathroom in restroom won't go to the restroom because of concerns about being in the restroom and the Kansas Court was as you can tell responsive and recepted to that and called it an injury and therefore there was a and so that's why we had the injunction and then that will continue TOS so it's not there yet but it's being challenged and that injury is key to the 29 plaintiffs that's a really yeah interesting feature of that decision okay I think that makes it even more important for us to have this wording in because one of
076the things we're thinking about the one here and putting this in exception accommodation but if I'm a member of the the other 29 I can use this too I can say that I don't want to be in this bathroom this locker room because this other individual came in I can do this too if we don't have this in place nobody can use it right so we good with that then just yeah a without striking the exception stri phras exception yeah or the phrase exception or yeah exception or yeah there is a lot there's so so much that's still in play in the air um we this we don't in in the notes that you gave we don't go over the overnight stay language I don't think um but even that I mean still has so
077much so it's kind of like craft what you're going to craft use some language and we're g to see how things play out over the next year until that Supreme Court takes that big case but I think we have I think we do have an obligation on a on a on a smaller level to um to have integrity on the behalf of the people who elected us as Representatives so that's kind of where I'm coming from with this I want to make sure that if I'm putting forward a document it's something that my constituents that all of those people who voted for me are something that they are secure in something that they understand and something that that they think is appropriate um but yeah so I mean and I do I do understand why
078you put that in there I appreciate you giving me the uh giving me the background on it as well so uh if everyone else is comfortable with is everyone comfortable with option A striking an exception and maybe you and I can talk about in the future what that looks like and stuff I mean I don't know this is going to come before the general board next correct is that how it would work I got to go per I was say it's it's gonna it's GNA go to um the board to pick either one of the two options or if the committee can say we don't need to pick options we're comfortable enough with one of these options um so I'm awaiting tonight's discussion points to finalize that so I do a question like Sanders is
079a lot thinner go with what Jared you had presented are the any of the pieces that are not picked up in Jared's the option A going to be added into this or is this purposefully a thinner draft that would be a question for Rene because she's the one who's who drafted A and B for us oh no I didn't draft just to clarify we didn't draft either we took information that came into us and gave recommendations in terms of if this is your policy we'll hear adjustment that you can make so there's no requirement that you have any guidelines policy or um resolutions you could decide not to do any of it and so if we could decide not to have an administrative guideline um kind of where before we started this discussion no we
080had an administrative guideline um but I don't think everybody was aware of the administrative guideline that's that's the that's the biggest Crux of the problem which is H having awareness of it and then also um making sure where we stand with the parent piece was was where I wanted to make sure that we were going uh the other drafts you're right came came on the backside of what we had in place already or were utilizing as a as an administrative guideline and I don't know where that developed that was prior to me coming to this District so so that came to our attention and we said here's some if this is your policy goal here's some adjustments you can make but there's no requirement that you have that level of detail in draft s is
081s for Sam draft s is for Sam so but Draft A and B so B came from Neola with attorney no no no so let me explain one more time uh draft a in its instance uh came because um I became aware of an administrative guideline that the district had in place I shared some um discomfort uh and and also um it wasn't just my discomfort but I knew that there was some board discomfort with um language in there around parent notification uh and so I wanted to clear up that uh language um that led to draft a um and draft a was modeled after everything else that was in there bathroom usage and everything that we had been considering and working under and utilizing for however long that's been in place prior to my
082existence okay then the committee um asked us to take a look at uh specifically the bathroom language but then there were some other concerns um uh Renee and her firm addressed the bathroom issue um but did not address any of the other concerns at this point in time Sam then proferred uh his um views of uh other uh policies from other places as well as his uh thoughts and ideas and reviews um and that's what s is this email that we're going through right now in the administrative content portion is um Rene's review of s and saying here's some things to consider if you want to go down that policy route and just so you know this isn't unusual at all so when we sent we just said here's bathroom language but board members might
083have other concerns because we anticipated that there would be other concerns that's been our experience and so then Sam articulated what the specific concerns were and then documented some of those so that we could respond and give some other suggestions but it's not unusual at all to have in addition to concerns regarding bathroom language than to say we'd also like to look at the rest of this so as soon as those were available can we get rephrase thereal question you don't mind him um Jared is there anything in draft B that you would like to see in draft s that is not in draft s that was in draft B my my main goal is to understand as a board uh what policy issues you're looking for or when it comes to have me help
084navigate our staff through those right um an administrative guideline um especially when there's um procedural implications for how staff and students are interacting with parents um and our system um really have to come from a comfortability level of the board as to giving me direction especially in this instance where there's not a parent policy for me to go back to right and so right now I'm you can see I'm very quiet because I'm trying to hear and listen to what it is you're trying to help um draft we have our attorney here to help you navigate issues uh according to that and support you some things to think about for liability things and others um and that's that's what she's doing she's she's here listening also where what direction do you want to go in
085and how can I best support you right so so I I don't have an opinion that's a long statement but I don't have I think my thing is that you have very there's this level of specificity with draft ass and I understand that and we're navigating through that you know thanks to and Communications and discussion here but I want to make sure that um we don't miss context things that Jared had built into draft b or the specificity that we can take what's in draft as lift and shift into dra back draft be those specific pieces that we know that we have focus on you know and get that be just to get that well-roundedness yeah my my my only um consideration that I've put forth is that um when when you Veer from uh
086the courts in our area that we're assigned to right the more you Veer from those the more liability we may or may not incur I don't know but the then you have to decide is that what you want because that's that's your charge to do that right you're you're in charge of connecting with our taxpayers understanding what their will is and basically being the stewards of those resources right I can only tell you that in my experience um when you Veer from the courts that we are assigned into you may incur more liability you may not I mean I I see I I understand your position Jared um on that I would say that when you when you're looking at liability it's at parody with with you know whatever somebody else decides to litigate on
087I don't we can weigh those we can't really weigh the um legal risk associated with litigation you can't because you're darned if you do you're darned if you don't that's basically what I said you may you may inquire you know um if again and if we were down in Florida uh in in the 11th circuit I'd be saying the same words like the more you Veer from what courts were assigned to um did that answer the question I think who asked it did we did we leave anything on the chopping room floor from from draft B that should be a draft maybe that's a question for wait wait wait hold on I'd like to clarify something here um jaran Jered and Sam have not had the opportunity to sit down and coordinate together these two
088particular policies there was where where I was going is there a draft J in the future draft Jarett right I think that it kind of gets the the the big part and there may some little things that obviously could be done but I think hitting the high note areas that from a legal perspective that's what what I gave you is everything I got so if I saw something in a that I then I would have told you that's so let me let me give an example that speaks to what you're asking about Fred it's very it's very singular but in uh in draft a SLB there's the recurring phrase uh and if the student is a minor or under the uh if the as minor the parents/guardians over and over again and so not that
089that's a bad thing by any means but I wanted to as I was cutting through I wanted to arrange it in a way that um that at least to me came across a little bit more smoothly and I thought that it would be easier to have under the process in my draft a section on parental rights that clearly outlines those things and then it's understood from there on out that that is the case and that was kind of my that was kind of my perspective was maybe we can trim it down and make it a little bit um more accessible I guess you know just from that perspective and I have the benefit of working with an established draft that had a lot of hard work done on it already from draft a you know
090so um and from draft B so so that's kind of where I was coming from with those things Tina you had question um more of a statement I guess um just as Sam you're saying you're hearing from your constituents as far as that's concerned I hear from mine m with the opposite you know so just so that you understand that there are two you know oh I understand that completely I hear from I hear from I hear from both sides but you have to balance out and find something that helps with all students that the other thing is that um as far as I as far as risk is concerned um the constituents that I hear from are like you know you're crazy if you take on more risk you know if we're going to
091be asking for money why would we you know like want to assume more risk and put ourselves out out there as far as that's concerned so um you know that's kind of where where I'm hearing from as far as that's concern so I appreciate the comment my argument would be this was um a box that we did not open this was something that was discussed from previous groups whe whether it was um Administration prior to this Administration this is this is not we have to deal with this we regardless of whether or not there's a a legal liability risk and it can go both ways if it you know um you're going to have a community that either supports a referendum or doesn't support a referendum you're GNA have a community that's going to say
092no I don't support you know your position on this and litigate accordingly the same same thing if we you know it's it's there just lose lose all around and I'm looking for Rene if Renee cringes as I said before she's not wi soon I look at Renee and she said that's not a good idea that's something we should steer clear up but if's like look you've got wle room in here and this is the language I'm providing you within the bounds of what you have I'm okay with that then you know as far as you know risk mitigation I know you know what I got this from the lawyer the law tells me no don't do it then I'm a Fool to do this but as long as this is her language provided to us
093we're working within it I'm okay with that thank you thank you um I uh I do think I what I'm hearing is um I mean I read through the email I did have a couple of other pointers um I know that the other the draft also mentioned something about overnight stays and trips I do think that there needs to be a little bit U more indicative language in that particular um statement is as well um like about parent notification uh for instance if parent parent should be notified if sleeping Arrangements will include um a district employee or other supervisor of one biological sex supervising students of the opposite biological sex or parents shall be notified if sleeping Arrangements will include a student of one biological SE sex sleeping in the same room as student of
094the opposite biological SE Su MH you know stuff like that for extended trips where parents should be notified at least two weeks in advance if an exception is being made to the requirement that sleeping arranges be arranged by biological sex I think that's appropriate you know and um so uh I also was considering uh those sorts of Clauses and Praises when I was going through and making draft t uh the reason that I ultimately left out language like that is I felt like the thrust of this is um as I as it says at the beginning uh to address requests from students regarding gender identity or gender expression prioritize parental rights and ensure the safety and privacy of students so not that those things have no place but I thought that perhaps that has more
095to do with uh some sort of policy in another area that has to do with parental notification I think that there's a lot more to be done there and it's that gets into its own area and maybe for the purposes of guidelines that are dealing with essentially creating a gender support plan maybe the maybe notification of parents doesn't really fit into that area do you understand what I'm saying I I do but I guess I've heard from constituents that have emailed their concerns regarding notification usually with something like this that we say that there's notification of parents pursuant to policy whatever exactly which we should have your language in there about notification to parents but then reference the specific communication policy for parents that we have there not just Exile it to the communication policy
096that's where we have the interplay between them right okay fair enough yeah um you know I also felt like and I don't know if um if this is a appropriate policy or if this goes to the HR discussion about you know later um but uh specific language like notwithstanding any statutory or legal authority to the contract contrary an employ any employee of the district may be subject to disciplinary action if the employee encourages coh horses or attempts to encourage or cohor a minor child to withhold information from the minor child's parent um this policy does not authorize a parent of a minor child to engage in cont conduct that is unlawful or abuse or to abuse or neglect their minor minor child in violation of the of General law C policy of child abuse and
097neglect parental rights do not prohibit or impede child welfare activities or any other statutory legal duties or rights when performed by a court of competent jurisdiction law enforcement officer employee of a government agency so um very specific language that you will not coorse a minor child um to withhold uh language from a m minor child's parent yeah I think that's great um and one of the things that I was thinking about as I was coming into this meeting as as I Was preparing for draft s is that it would probably uh it would probably be a good idea for us to examine like uh I think Dan uh Dan bolner The Other Board member uh like he brought up at one of the previous meetings having something that does um we were getting confused about
098parent policy that phrase having a policy concerning parents parental rights Etc um and since these are guidelines and they're not necessarily a policy in and of themselves that's where some of that was but I I mean I would be I would certainly be happy to see something like that and have something like that to reference within the transgender uh student guidelines so if I'm going to wrap this up um it sounds as though there's some work left to be done when it comes to coordination between um Sam's policy and perhaps the draft b or a versions to see if we can come up with something that is a little bit um cohesive maybe maybe um appropriate to bring forth the com committee as a recommendation and perhaps maybe we will see that that there's some
099agreement that that can go forward as a recommendation and for the uh would it be October meeting at least octo yeah our October committee meeting yeah I mean I don't see anything that's ready for prime time at the board right now right is there anything else we need to discuss since we have her new year on any of the other items or yeah her other we were going to talk about be so you're going to need October for this one say again but this this one that we've been discussing draft and ask you're going to need until the October board meeting for that one I don't see how it's going to be ready for September it's fine it's going to have to go to October policy and then October full board meeting if that's the
100case that's fine for first read just making sure um and at the next committee meeting we're going to have to have a discussion as to are we sending one policy to the board or two competing policies um we came working out a competing policy to a um you know at least that's that's what I that's what I heard us doing right I don't know if we're still doing that or not unless you're prepared to put them exactly side by side with each paragraph versus paragraph versus paragraph because to anybody who's not perfectly fluent in a and the alternate whatever that is s EJ what what what have you it's going to be very difficult to pick up these the minor deep the differences and I think that uh Sam you and Renee have done a
101very good job job of blending them to this point and on the points where there's a little bit of differences I like the fact that the full policy committee is involved and we get kind of help we in between the sth and 11th in which case I'd prefer not to see two competing policies only because it'd be very difficult for any person not in this room to truly appreciate the nuances of the differences and as long as Renee and Sam and Jared are working within those boundaries I think we'll probably end up with a pretty good policy in the end spending time with yall but you're going to go on to six hours on this discussion and then you're going to throw two of them up to the board we're going to spend another three
102hours okay so that's that that was my reason for bringing this up because again next month I think we should be able to okay okay I appreciate I appreciate that input it sounds as though it would be um the intent or the hope of the committee to be able to put together um a policy that like Sam's alternative along with perhaps maybe draft b or draft a and try to try to come to this committee with a recommendation that um takes into consideration our discussion today and in hopes that we put bring this forth as a recommendation potentially and for the October meeting um and certainly at that meeting you know they the the board can choose to refer back to committee or or approve it am I I want to make sure that like
103in my opinion because it seems as though the um the less risky um you know area is to go towards the seventh court and see or the seventh Circuit of what as far as that's concerned so I'm interested in that language so however things come together um and if it doesn't if it's separate then it's separate um but I want to make sure that that's clear as well so that I understand deration would you want from that because I mean one of the things that you know Renee has been providing is is you know different gradations of that language and if that you know there's again risk mitigation I mean we can go hard to one but it seems like that we're trying to shade a little bit to the right but we're still you
104know that's fine I mean I didn't have time to read you know everything so okay I'm I'm just stating where I'm at as far as that goes and I do all I've heard a lot of um you know talk about um protections of the non-trans students I want to make sure that we're doing our diligence and protecting the the students who this policy is for as well as far as the you know the students that are needing the trans accommodations and things like that I want to make sure that we're following what we need to to protect them as well like you know we need to be with all you know with all kids interests and things like that um then I just want to make sure we have that in line because I'm not
105hearing a lot of that well I mean I think we're kind of building off of draft a which very specifically addresses that and the purpose of draft S is to like we were talking about we had we were going to have two policies that kind of come at it from two different angles draft s's purpose was to make sure that the voices of the many people in the community who were concerned about some of that language was heard if you were feel more comfortable with having two drafts uh the competing draft idea that we originally had between draft a and draft s um I mean I'm certainly okay seeing my draft s go to go to board in a stronger sense but I understand I guess I guess I would I would say we have
106to try to come with as a committee I mean as far what I'm hearing so far is we try to come together as closely as we can as a committee and that will be brought forth as a recommendation because we can talk all night and if we if if it's a matter of um looking at just draft a well there might be a series of holes that a number of us may have some issues with right before that gets brought before the board as a recommendation let's try to streamline it if we can let's try to get something that forth as a recommendation that's a little bit closer to as a single do as a single as a single draft I going back to my i' prefer not to review two policies in in competition
107with each other but if we do then make sure that I don't have to read this one and then 10 minutes later read this one and then try to figure out the differences I mean i' almost want something yeah we'd have to go through kind of a not a bullet by Bullet just so that we can compare topic by topic topic by topic topic yeah and then even editor's note an attorney's note that says and this is where they materially differ whether that's Sam's whether that's the attorneys just so that to I don't want to call it the novice user let's just say a guy who reads a lot of legal documents and can't tell the difference between the two because one adjective was missing or one comma was missing or you chose observed and
108not uh assigned and I'm like What's the difference so I really need some interpretation between those two I like the idea of streamlining to one um and then to Tina's point if the seventh is over here and the 11th is over here I consider it all thin ice because as I said last time there's still a good chance you're going to get sued you just have to have some legal precedence for your position and I don't see anybody dipping their toe into the Open Water on either side so far and as long as we keep ourselves in between those two I think we can come up with the policy that our board can live with but just don't go diving off of the edges because that's that's a problem for everybody from a risk mitigation
109perspective just for uh clarification so that um I can bring you back something that I think is less confusing and and more afford um our discussions uh as we move forward uh here's the two things I understand that we're we're working towards one we want to keep draft a in our content so that we can look back to it I think removing draft B and any other supporting documents there is fine I think we're all pretty well versed in where we need to be with that we will come together with a cleaner draft s from the discussion points from tonight my question is did we cover all of the discussion points under draft s for tonight that we needed to um can I ask one more question about the compelled speech section because I was
110I only a little bit confused on that um uh were you you were just kind of is that just kind of a comment on there just just to know there's s circuit case that felt came down on the side of the student but again there's a lot of cases out there and when you're talking about the larger issues too the Magano case we had or arguments on that a few months ago in the seventh circuit arguing the 11 circuit standard and this is seventh circuit any day like tomorrow we could wake up and get a decision right so a lot of this stuff could change so that's just a note so that you're aware and that's not even talking about other things that might pop up in the next month or whatever I mean there's
111always going to be more that pops up um so then after this meeting concludes maybe I can talk to you two about a time that we could meet to kind of go over and do like the even further refinement of draft s huh sounds good okay excellent yeah that's the last of my question all right do you have anything else here uh Craig I think Lori had a question um I just wanted to make a comment more than I think that I appreciate the learning for the extracurricular activities so I didn't know if we needed anybody had to I just wanted to be sure that Dina we all which wording that we will to participate um with the that's consistent with their sex prior to any competition you know number two the director and wst
112Coach will work with the student and parents Guardians to determine what support need be placed but we do we need to change you don't need to it's just a recommendation to consider if you want to if you want to Loop in WIA and wakasa does it that way in the resolution so you know that's an option for you it's to consider and because I you know I just didn't know I wanted to be sure we didn't need to add anything more like the second comment with this it's just an option for consideration yeah just to just to get some feedback thought that that one was fine as well I thought that that addition was fine made sense because WIA doesn't mandate anything it just says hey if you're going to do this or this here's
113what you have to do you have to give us notice so I think that makes sense so I think it covers and they haven't been challenged yet okay and I and I want to make sure that um we're consistent with our other policies and our other policies specifically outline where we will follow wi so reiterating it through this piece is be important for me anyway to say we're consistent so I just wanted to be sure that got put in there yeah okay any further discussion all right that will move forward as not as a recommendation at this point but as the action steps that we will work together Sam and Jared will work together with ber to join those two policies basically together all right uh moving forward I don't know that we need you
114for anything actually I I would do you w to ask a question yeah yeah I mean it's specific to compelled speech on the non-discrimination Equal Employment Opportunity policy I think you you had Emily Emily Emily did Emily Emily sent y uh information there and she's available too so she said if anyone has questions for her you can dial her up and okay she would be available if you need anything okay I guess um I don't not at this time it seems as though the my questions were answered okay so thank you we just wanted to make sure that you all knew that if you do have questions as you she's on stand if the if the discussion warrants it may we might okay okay well it was good to see everybody and then we'll connect
115yeah thank you for coming in I don't think it's anything crucial that we have to make the tonight take your questions and get it okay you know I mean no that's fair that's fair we've been working through it I say if it's if it's that um we've been at it for three or four months now so all righty thank you thank you all right which brings us to a letter B about the non-discrimination Equal Employment Opportunity um policy and its companion piece so it's a 3122 and um the we have an email from Emily um that you know that that talks about uh the the usage of uh sex and all of the's here gender status race Creed color disability marital status sex National or origin ancestry sexual orientation arrest record conviction record military service
116non-use of lawful products use or or nonuse with lawful Products off the employer's premises during you know I mean so there's the language there um but it basically indicates that um we would want to include sexual orientation as part of those um classes um but it it in it we have the um the how does it say neither of these laws specifically require the district to expressly identify gender status change of sex sexual orientation or gender IDE identity as protected classes in its policies uh I would say that I think that sexual orientation indication there is probably a MP I think that it sounds like sexual orientation is um recommended to be in there and and that's never been that's never been an argument of mine I always felt that that you know you shouldn't
117be discriminating absolutely against anybody for for umri sexual orientation but rather that that specific um line that said specifically discrimination on the basis of sex stereotyping gender non-conformity constitutes sex discrimination so if if I'm reading this um advice from our attorney correctly we can strike in that first paragraph in the parentheses including gender status sex change of sex or gender identity and leave sexual orientation pregnancy Creed or religion genetic information handicap disability marital status citizenship status veteran status all of that stuff I did like even here it says that states uh the state statute 11.32 it does have sexual orientation so that's where I I think that does make St yeah I think you could say natural origin age sex and sexual orientation or comma sexual orientation pregnancy I don't know I don't know if
118you want to just take out the other things out of the parenthesis I would just take it take it take it out of parentheses and language that's not in the law it's not um because because okay the implication of this particular U language in this particular non-discrimination equal opportunity equal employment opportunity this is a non-discrimination that's encompassing disciplinary matters as well uh when it comes to HR and you know sexual orientation probably speaks to the individual uh whereas when you when you um bring forward other things like um gender status change of sex or gender IDE identification now you're speaking to matters of compelled speech and this particular document well I that's the question that we have when it comes to the compelled speech right so the document seems to imply that so an employee
119can be punished for refraining from speech I.E not using somebody's pronouns repeatedly that becomes a compelled speech matter um my question was was it necessary to put that language into this policy in order for uh us to move forward with a policy that speaks to harassment and uh discrimination and retaliation and um the uh the attorney's response was um as it relates to District employees using preferred pronouns of students there is a conflict ac across jurisdictions between the rights of employees and the rights of parents and students in the context of transgender student issues because of this conflict there is some risk in expressly recognizing One's group one group's one group's rights over the other rights in a board policy so as a result many districts choose to address situations on a case-by Case basis
120as they arise rather than through more rigid policies that may restrict a District's ability to respond to a particular circumstances uh uh however if the board wishes to directly address employees rights related to student use of student pronouns we believe it would be most appropriate to do so in material related to student non-discrimination matters perhaps in the transgender student administrative guidelines which we just had discussed rather than the in the employee non-discrimination policy so so this is this is an instance where I raised a question about this particular topic of compelled speech whether a a teacher has a right to refrain from speech the use of pronouns and the attorney differs from what Neola had recommended question is okay I'm confused number one so are we talking about the first paragraph where most of the
121attached documents uh as Lori just stated more or less allow us to remove um the two or three uh words in the parentheses so let's just keep it paragraph one right let's keep paragraph one it's not in state law if you do discriminate on it just like if I discriminated on hair color I'm going to get sued anyway but we don't have to leave it in the paragraph it it's additional words it's not necessary what Lori said five minutes ago take out the parenthesis leave the one word and move on yeah let's just let's just cover that I okay so yeah yeah I think that would be good to just kind of go through and okay because that's where I was going and then yeah then you would then you took that right turn down
122to speech not I'm not and tending to confuse so on on Laura's point which I believe is 31 22 the first paragraph and the question that was asked via Margaret uh and it's been relatively succinctly answered twice uh one is at the bottom of the email from August starts with uh Friday August 2nd uh from Margaret to Jared Burke at the very bottom of that page it's page 104 and it specifically says there rep the policy committee had concerns with including the references to gender status change of gender and gender identity there is an argument against there is an argument against specifically identifying them in the policy and they could be taken out so that's what I thought we were reviewing on 3122 that is the four words the four it's a start of it
123sorry sorry yes yes that we are we are reviewing that however I thought we had settled that last meeting but I thought that's what we referred to that was what was attached in most of these documents in correspondence between Emily and Margaret was that but then he had further questions okay where did we settle on that one are we taking them out which Lori just said I based on we're based on the thought process that um that we can remove them uh withold okay so then on 3122 where and where Lynn where things are currently in parentheses including gender status change of sex sexual orientation or gender identity the only thing we leave there is sexual orientation between the commas and and and that's it and that's on advice of counsel is that what everybody's
124understanding is that's my understanding okay okay so thank okay now I'm not confused about that right what what are you what am I willing take an approach to it thanks the the advice I believe of council is to not um lean on one side or other within our policy meaning this um for instance compelled speech if we put in our policy you're taken away from the first paragraph again I that's that's why I said we moved on past we we have that we have that done okay good I believe that was discussed and done right I didn't know that was discussed and done because I haven't seen a write up where it's missing I up again yeah right no my my understanding is is that you guys are leaning towards taking out those that's what
125I thought parentheses words right first paragraph four items in between the par because I thought you said okay yes done yeah and then I thought you said but no I didn't say but which means we're not done no I I didn't say anything in regard to that okay next somebody else brought up the next topic of compelled speech and I said Craig let me handle uh uh uh try to try to wrap up our our our attorney's discussion points on that um there's some uh language that can be uh considered consel compelled speech language meaning uh if we were to put in there that you're not going to discriminate based on um you know some of the things that are in this parag parenthesis um uh for instance um gender status um or uh gender
126identity I'm GNA use the gender identity piece for you know my terminologies here if we said um if they're identifying as something you need to address them as such right otherwise it's discrimination then that means if Jared says I would love it um if you call me Mrs Burke because that's how I I identify um then I'm compelling you all to call me Mrs Burke by our policy you all have to call me Mrs Burke by my policy okay and if you don't it can be discrimination right that's giving difference to one group over another me over everybody else out there who may have a problem calling me Mrs Burke okay if we stand moot on the point don't give difference to one or the other you still can handle it Case by case so
127if I ask you all to call me Mrs Burke and one of you I don't care which one of you wants to get picked on but one if Lori consistently calls me Mr Burke right and I have issue with that I can still say she is discriminating against me she is going outside of my wishes and what I'm asking for she's doing it purposefully and with every will and intent to go against how I identify please do something about this now it becomes a case-by casee basis and administration and the board are free to discuss that dispute work through that dispute but they're not giving difference to any one side or the other through policy to compel one or the other okay there the attorneys are saying stay moot on the point so you have
128the best flexibility to address situations as they come up so I understand everything you just said and it makes perfect sense is that related to 3122 it is it is part of 3122 is related to because if you there's a that this is equal opportunity and non-discrimination of employment this has nothing to do with interaction with students or each other this has to with can I hire Jared this beyond that but this is 3122 non-discrimination equal opport and equal employment opportunity why is it goes to the continued employment aspect yes it continues on if you go down like for instance reports and complaints of discrimination and retaliation just a yeah that kind of will kind of get you into that bring you into where word okay I'm in 3122 I apologize I'm just not no
129that's okay it's very understandable 31 the page three the second paragraph has a very similar phraseology as that first paragraph top okay investigation and complaint procedure is that what we're talking no um it's on the top of Page Three reports and complaints of discrimination orilation got it okay and the second paragraph the second paragraph they say discrimination against an individual based on their sex including gender status sexual orientation and gender identity so now it's taking these specific Concepts okay got it and or that you would want that to align with paragraph one and just a sexual orientation right and and our attorneys would say that gives you the most flexibility in house to you still doing what the law says you have to have I ask a question quick about that paragraph then the second
130and third sentence of that paragraph specifically discrimination on the basis of sex stereotyping Etc this is true irrespective of the cause Etc would those also be struck because those are dealing direct language yes and yeah that seems yeah I mean and I had questions about that since the beginning the irrespective of the cause language seems really right because that ask about that that's like not in the parentheses though you know what I'm saying this is what we're asking about because this is that specific line specifically discrimination on the basis of sex stereotyping and gender non-conforming constitut sex discrimination so that goes to compelled speech because how else would you be discriminating against somebody by your speech so right sorry what did the attorney say about that to leave it out in a that sentence as
131well so um B basically um after the pr right um keeping that language to the paragraph or to the period is correct is discrimination and violation of title 7 right but the next two sentences are what our attorney is talking about if we identify those we're in deference we're giving deference to um one group possibly over another we're given specificity where we should not we should have we should we should have more open language so that as a board you can interpret each situation saying that it's okay to be harassing somebody for like that's not it's just not saying that I think that that you know and it is discrimination against pretty right and in sexual orientation yeah I mean this goes over and Beyond what gets an individual based on their sexes discrimination violation
132title 7 period actions based on an individual sex could be suspect and potentially impermissible yes yeah and so taking out those other two sentences I believe Emily is sharing with us that really um that that's that's giving difference to one group possibly over another and she would rather us uh take each individual case uh into consideration and talk about uh where we think U that lies she's she's not saying that discrimination in those areas couldn't exist she's saying it may exist but you also want to make sure that when you're when you're looking at that um you you have as broad of approaches you can yeah you don't want to overcompensate and end up having problems in the other direction especially because it says specifically that's where it really so do we still take out
133gender status and gender identity that first sentence of that right yes okay and any other occurrence where it shows up in the document I would say to to try to explain sex further is possibly giving difference to um certain individuals or groups and and and possibly not others right is what I heard that that's my that would be the the question I had yes um based on a teacher's First Amendment right um to uphold their deeply rooted religious convictions and beliefs um now to to not be able not to be compelled to speak right now again if if if Title Nine comes through in full force as it's written um I'll be coming back and saying okay we gotta change that I I want you to know that like we're just we're just following what's
134in place now right um as law because this is verbage from title yeah yes Cent right and they they tried to they tried to take that language from the new Title Nine title and and they tried to marry it with um definitions around title 7 right so I mean and that was just you know person personally personally I will accept those changes as a compromise because I I don't think it goes far enough personally I think there's there's there's some language that I'd rather see in there you know uh like for instance the district respects the rights of its professional staff members to free speech and to teach while remaining consistent with their sincerely held beliefs and religious practices any professional staff member that has an objection to using names and pronouns which correspond with
135the G with gender identity that's inconsistent with biological sex of a student um a staff member will not be forced to do so can I right can I stop you for a second because I want to say this putting that kind of language in goes against what we were just talking about that our attorney set that's that's what I'm I think refence to the other side of that discussion yeah yeah I we have to go back because it let's wait to see what happens with tile n where we do have to start putting these words back in or this then maybe we should have some discussion on how how that relates Rel to free speech and opinion well giving difference to one group over another exact want to make sure that a um you know
136staff member professional staff member is not going to get U disciplined or let's say for instance finding a happy meeting of using the students last meeting you know instead of in soad yeah for this purposes we're good y all right sounds good so so is that gota if that is the committee is that the direction of the committee then I'm good do with first read yeah let me let me check in when are you did you follow do yeah okay because she's she's gonna the one who does the work on that right so I gotta just double check and comes up just we'll do that okay sounds like we got that addressed so let's move back to d looks like oh um we have group two of the 4,000 the 4,000 policies um those changes
137that we just made to 3122 also have to carry over to 4122 sure I would ass y yeah um did anybody have any additional questions or comments or concerns about these particular grouping of policies I'll start off by saying I did have one under the drug food workplace yeah I know I feel like I had a question that's why I just pulled this so on Under The Heading permitted acts paragraph two we see a large line that's um struck out in when it comes to the use of marijuana and THC now I'm kind of wondering why um because I know that we don't re allow kids to have THC or marijuana on in our schools I hope not right that would be [Music] correct sorry Craig which one uh it is uh which number 41
138uh 41221 drug free workplace that's what I was looking at s and we at se it is the permitted acts paragraph two you see the large Str oh there it is got it okay what's the argument do we want to include that yeah I just I'm just asking why would we strike it out it's I think that's why it struck out Craig saying that we don't exclude those as I think if it wasn't minded we'd be saying that could have that it's considered of the standards regarding unlawful possession use or distribution of illicit drugs and alcohol like you think those are I missed that I'm sorry I read through this so fast you struck that on the first one that's why yeah sometimes you read all these polici you start to go thank you change
139the word well that that's why I asked for clarification when when you talked about the communication policy I'm like just want to know what what it is you're trying to get at because sometimes you don't you know until you like ask you know where are we with that right right and the and the discussion point was different so sometimes just discussing it makes it Mak sense exactly that I do have a question go ahead 4215 M of tobacco and nicotine by support staff why is it called up specifically support staff because this is a support staff policy and the other one's professional that's you have yeah yeah that's the difference between the 4000s and the 3000 I just want to go back to my high school teacher Lounge okay where it's just like in The
140Simpsons it's just all SM I I remember my sixth grade teacher coming in and just wreaking supposed go came out like you were in a bar I did want to um just kind like from the HR perspective and things like that um you know I know like from being a part of HR committee and having conversations with Margaret and things um even like 4139 where it talks about like discipline procedures and things like that um I know that out of these policies Neola will be providing like handbooks and we're very excited about that Margaret's very excited about that because um you know that's been on our list and that it has yes it's there but this just gives it more meat to it and a greater understanding and things like that so yeah it just
141gives it more that is gonna so from these policies that's going to be going into the handbook um and those are that's a very good thing that more guidance and things like that needed there so that [Music] standpoint these these are all pretty much similar policies to the one so any other questions regarding that and I guess these will move forward uh recommendation for the September [Music] Ming which brings us to letter e or neol development process uh you know it's always a struggle um we're trying to get through all of our policies this this time around it uh uh considering uh vacation schedules and other obligations that were in in the works at the end of the summer here and then the beginning of school and yeah it's my understanding Administration to the best
142that they possibly could get us me yeah you did yeah get 30 but we got 25 so thank you for that got 50 next time so um I I will tell you that um Sarah um is now starting work on the 6000 so um we're we're going to really just be able to crank out some more uh when it comes to our September meeting with you guys uh and um that that one is the standing meeting these ones in between are always kind of excuse me did I say I me I know it's crazy it's I was looking right here and it says September right um but I meant October in our October standing meeting um and so she uh is going to be ready with um a number of those to come uh forward
143with um and uh you know put up in front so she can she can start dropping some of those off now she's got them I mean so we can start reviewing them yeah I mean we won't have another committee meeting until October but but you're right yes it is she there will be Sumit October yeah well I mean as as far as our ability to try to digest them before the meeting that would be nice like yeah I mean just no that I'm out no no that she's out for the next tomorrow starting tomorrow through next week uh okay so sure wedding right wedding yeah so okay um we're keeping as good of a pace as we can um it looks like so about a month behind on the Financial templates but we're not hopefully
144I don't know if there will be should we adjust this calendar then no just let's keep it and let's keep trying to hit it all right um you know I I'd rather uh you know try to get stick to our plan at work as much as we can okay um you know um a plan is a plan right right um and uh if if we don't hit it we don't hit it but I I'm I'd like to was keep trying to go with the plan instead of keep changing the plan because if we keep changing the plan then then it's just gonna keep changing and keep changing keep there R try to really direct us back to it like I'll very good any questions regarding the process or the last thing I'll say is this
145uh when your when your pilot uh takes off right he's got a scheduled Landing right um sometimes things happen uh to to change the course turbulence other things weather patterns whatever else um but then they try to adjust the speed in the aend right and so that's what I'm going to try to do to try to uh at the airport within a reasonable amount of time and so uh we'll just keep at it perfect okay any anything else for uh future agenda planning I have one thing for this one you couldn't sneak all right uh it is 7:35 uh we stand [Music] adjourned which one is this I think we did you want to recap them all we stand a Jour but I want to make sure we we I think we had uh two
146we had a policy to change