Acushnet: School Committee Joint meeting with Board of Selectmen and Finance Committee Feb. 26, 2025

001[Applause] [Music] Wednesday February 26 20125 to 700 p.m. this is a joint meeting of the board of Selectmen the ACC school committee and the finance committee there there a motion to call the board of selectman meeting to order so moved second all those in favor would the chrush school committee please call their meing to order um I will just point out that this meeting is being video and audio recorded for future broadcast and can I call the meeting uh open on the school committee side please so move second Broome all in favor all in favor I I leg sense would the finance committee please call their meeting to order good evening ladies and gentlemen uh do I have a motion to open our finance committee meeting so MO second all in favor pleas rise for

002pledge of Alle I to FL of the United States of America stands naice all right everyone purpose of this meeting is to discuss the pending debt exclusion article for the school HVAC project review of matters presented votes may be taken um I would like to turn this over to the school committee or Patrick or whoever would like to take the lead introduce train and anybody else this bman thank you thank you chair person um the reason we're here tonight I guess is for discussion for the indoor air quality environmental Improvement project that we're proposing here um at a kushna public schools um a couple years ago we battled you know some significant humidity issues within um the buildings and it was The Perfect Storm to cause um surface level mold and other mold findings throughout

003the the buildings um to a point where we had to invest some serious federal funds into cleaning the project up uh funding equipment to you know Band-Aid solution the humidity and air purification um and then pursue permanent Solutions moving forward um which has landed us through uh Energy Management Service procurement you know performance Contracting um in which we went through a thorough process um to select trained Technologies to perform an investment grade audit on our campus both buildings um and and you know come up with a comprehensive solution to the problems that were proposed um so we're going to touch base on that tonight in the pursuit of potentially a debt exclusion to fund um said project through the April 22nd ballot vote um and without further Ado um we have Beth greenblat who you

004cannot see right now she's a she's here virtually she can hear um see answer questions um and she'll be up on the big screen once the presentation's down she is our owner's representative um she's a consultant that we have hired an energy um expert in this field uh um and and represents a Kush at public schools and she's with Beacon Integrated Solutions and then we also have uh Morgan Paris with her train team that I'm going to let her introduce Morgan is the Energy Services account manager who's been working on this um every step of the way for uh the greater portion of the year um so Morgan I'm going to hand it over to you thank you so much Mr McIntyre and thank you so much to the Committees for having us here today

005uh the finance committee SL board and cushion public schools and school committee thank you so much um as Patrick already mentioned my name did I mic just go up no okay all right my name is Morgan Paris I'm an Energy Services account executive with train um and my primary job is to work with public entities like yourselves um to do projects within schools and town buildings to make them more comfortable more efficient and safe spaces for people to be in so this is really what we do all the time me and my team of dedicated energy um professionals of project managers of project developers of Contracting professionals and more um and I have a couple people from my team today we have a g do you want to introduce yourself yeah I Atul Gupta I'm

006a mechanical engineer energy engineer that is very close to this project I've looked at it from day one I'm quite aware of what the problems are and what the solutions are I'll be happy to answer any questions and then we have Chris Jones as well hi uh I'm Chris Jones I lead trains Energy Services business for the Northeast thank you for having us so the the purpose of today is really to review some of the specifics of the project that we've evaluated some of the the current problems that we've identified and potential Solutions um to address really the core issues primarily of the humidity issues at the Kos Elementary School in the most C cost effective energy efficient way um I have a presentation here today the school committee's already seen it um so the

007purpose I think is to really Rush quickly a little bit through this it's high level um based off of the solutions that we've pulled together in the energy conservation measures that we have they're also detailed pretty extensively in the the executive summary that you have in front of you um what I really want to spend time doing though is answering your questions so I'll Rush a little bit quickly through the presentation and then really the purpose is to to open the floor to you all um to to ask your questions and have us answer them to the best of our ability does that sound appropriate absolutely all right awesome um so direct your attention to the presentation in front of you like you said or quality improvements for Kosen Public School specifically for the elementary

008school um agenda for the presentation is a little bit about the project team who we've really already introduced the why for the project um a schedule update on where we currently are in this performance Contracting uh process through this procurement path um a bit of a review of the scope for the project that we are contemplating and a budget review and then closing with Community benefits and like I said want spend the most time on Q&A um so already introduced the project team and and one of our members actually Max ma who's the the main project developer for this project couldn't be here tonight um so sad to have Max not here but he will be in future meetings um so you all can hear from him as well so a bit of the why

009for this project like like Patrick introduced um is really to address Indoor environmental quality issues within um aush Elementary School with with some of those humidity concerns um it's to address growing infrastructure needs related to some of the physical equipment and primarily the heating ventilation and air conditioning systems which is a very broad term right ventilation air conditioning and humidity um and heating so really encompasses everything in addition to how are we actually controlling these systems so building management controls and building automation controls to make sure we are appropriately and efficiently operating all of these systems um extending building longevity so making sure that these buildings really are going to last for 10 20 more years um so that you're making good use of the buildings that you already have in your fold um optimizing

010green communities funding to address some of these issues so taking advantage of any state local and federal dollars that we can possibly find um addressing some of that deferred maintenance related to the systems and then while we're at it like I said doing that in the most efficient way possible um while addressing energy consumption so looks like my my timeline got slightly messed up but really key here is that we've completed uh schedule items 1 through six all the way from um like Mr M mentioned um participating in a request for qualifications U being selected as as the Energy Services Company uh completing a detailed audit that took a few months uh to come up with with really Concrete Solutions where we walk through your buildings we walk subcontractors we came up with fix firm

011pricing identified Energy savings associated with these projects any and all rebates and incentives um and then finally came up with what we we um you know discussed with the schools as as that first um project to address those issues um and then now we're at the the stage where I have the arrow app which is really defining a project for for this town meeting that Mr McIntyre mentioned we investigated a number of comprehensive building measures this is really high level but at both schools um really everything from lighting and building envelope and of course heating ventilation and air conditioning systems all the way to Kitchen walk-in Refrigeration um kitchen equipment upgrades solar Renewable Energy Systems Transformer upgrades and more so this this project en encompassed a lot of development and energy um analysis on our

012part diving into the scope of work the the main portion I believe of what we're talking about tonight is um the core of the indoor air quality improvement solution which is addressing the the current um what we call primarily a Band-Aid solution of plugin dehumidifiers that have to be manually um relieved every night um from the condensation accumulated from dehumidifying to a really Central solution that will hopefully address the whole school in a more Central fashion it'll make it easier to maintain uses existing infrastructure existing Air Handlers um in the most efficient way possible um so that's through installing variable refrigerant flow heat pop technology um that will efficiently cool and heat in order to get that that premium environment that has the perfect what we like to call a sunny and 70 approach that

013dehumidifies um that space uh it also includes a structural analysis that we performed to make sure that the equipment on the roof um did not affect anything to do with the roofing warranty and was fully supported um with the existing infrastructure um we also performed an electrical engineering study to make sure that the electrical infrastructure um was available at up to par and we are including some infrastructure upgrades on the electrical side as well to accommodate these immediate upgrades I have a note here about the the roofing because I know that this has come up a few times we were able to get in touch with young developers who was the original roofing contractor that performed the roofing upgrade and have confirmed that there would be no issues with maintaining the existing roofing warranty um

014if we were to use a muleh high approved roofin contractor which we are happy to do um have them register the project with that muleh high vendor prior to the start of the project which we are also happy to do and scheduling a pre- and post inspection before and after the project um so we're confident with those three measures taken that we will be able to maintain the existing roofing warranty the building management system this really ties directly into the indoor eror quality improvements proposed this would be full integration and visibility of all Building Systems on one web-based platform so this means that um a cush Public Schools members are able to look at any piece of equipment um from a computer or a tablet or a cell phone so that if building problems arise

015or alarms go off in either the middle of the day the middle of the night or a weekend that they're able to really jump immediately onto that and to um address issues before they come see serious become serious we also included some funds to address what we call deficiencies which is a a really failed equipment that you might not know about but once we install this highly intelligent uh building automation system it may come to like that there are a couple failed dampers actuators Etc so we've included some contingency funds to cover those in the event that we do find um some failed equipment we've also really targeted building management systems because that combined with the end quality project is key to get the maximum amount of incentives to offset the initial cost of this

016project uh from ever source so we are working closely with eversource to make sure that that happens building envelope improvements were identified across the whole building I have a few photos from from the analysis done um but really it's roof wall intersection air ceiling it's um it's Door and Window stripping a few building building envelope improvements really related to tightening up the building envelope to make sure that the air that we are conditioning inside and making comfortable not humid is staying inside right it's not leaking out and then that humid hot air outside is not seeping in right and we also had a had a video as well next we have duck ceiling um similar to the previous building improvements project um when air is conditioned appropriately to pull out that humidity in the air

017handler that's up in the mezzanine we want that air to appropriately actually go to the room it was intended to go to um so performing duct sealing and making sure that those duck runs that are bringing um that nice cool appropriately um humid air actually gets to the space it was intended to get to um so that will really make sure that we don't have condensation in um unconditioned spaces we reduce our energy waste so we're doing this like I said in a in a really efficient manner and we'll also be uh coating some of the existing hot water coils so that we also have um an extended lifespan of existing hot water coils too air purification um is also a component of what we will be uh including in the um Air Handlers that

018are existing again in the mezzanine um right now there are room byro pluged in to an outlet air purifiers um that requires really daily maintenance for folks to go in um make sure that filters are cleaned make sure that uh they're working appropriately and adds additional maintenance tax for folks to have to go into every single room this will provide more effective air purification um of all of the air going through the central heating ventilation and air conditioning system through M 14 filters um without having to do that in room uh purification this is much more Central um and we'll be reusing existing filter spaces again in air handlers that already exist so really using an effective use of existing systems and then lastly kitchen walk-ins um this is something discussed that is I believe

019supported by existing Food Service dollars on hand for for Christian Public Schools but um it's really replacing um severely outdated um kitchen walk-ins both on the refrigeration um and uh freezer side of of both of the schools um so there's a lot of increased Energy Efficiency and operational benefits here of increasing insulation performing demand control ventilation um and having LED lighting as well quick qu quick question yes can can you just repeat that did you say that was already handled financially through schools already funded lunch program so the Food Service yes um from the reimbursements for school lunch and breakfast the the money that you make goes into a revolving fund to be able to sustain the program um you know the cost of food labor equipment Etc um we do have a a surplus

020in that fund that we're comfortable to fund the um the freezer and Refrigeration project solely through that it would not be an impact on tax dollars or to the debt exclusion excellent and that is just to add to that the reason why the the kitchen walk-in project is actually not in the executive summary so it is something we had identified and and would hopefully be a part of this larger contract but it's a a separate project and then you'll see that I did break them apart here in this um financial support slide so um the indoor air quality project totaling those different five measures um is a not to exceed of a $4.2 million project right now after multiple conversations with eversource and their hired technical assistance vendor um it is looking like our incentives

021might be around 300 $2,000 so um that would offset that uh indoor air quality budget uh by that exact amount all incentives would flow directly um to the town of ausnet and that cost after rebates would be about $3.88 million and then um like Mr McIntyre already mentioned that the kitchen Refrigeration project is uh financed separately through the Food Service program um there are two other incentive um programs that we are contemplating at the moment uh Green community Grant cycle which has been applied for we are still waiting to hear back of whether um we have been accepted for any dollars through the GRE green communities grant program but that could be an additional um fund source for this project anywhere from $250,000 to 500,000 additional dollars to support this because it is a um

022heat pump decarbonization Focus project um and there's also a green School Works program um where we've submitted interest forms but it looks like that one is um not really to the point of moving forward yet I think they are taking their time moving forward with that and lastly just to summarize Community benefits we see them really as fiscal social and environmental um these are really needed upgrades for the schools to operate appropriately and you're doing them really in a comprehensive manner using existing infrastructure but approaching it from a comprehensive perspective not just dehumidifying from a central system but also making sure that the building envelope that the Ducks are all sealed and appropriately taken care of um eversource utility rebates will be able to support it and hopefully ging communities Grant dollars as well um

023from a social perspective we really are optimizing indoor air quality um and and solving these humidity issues at a Kush Elementary School which will hopefully positively impact um really students and teachers and from an environmental perspective all of this is being done um really with Energy Efficiency in mind um which you can see from the gr communities and the eversource utilities um hopefully supporting this and with that we would love to open up the floor for questions I think we'll come sit down with them to get thank you SC there she is [Music] Beth since we just brought you front and focus do you just want to introduce yourself real quick before we open up to questions please I think you're M can you hear me now yes thank you awesome good evening folks and

024thank you very much and I appreciate your accommodations um I had some illness stuff going on in the family that I'm I'm addressing um but I did want to share with you um my thoughts on on the sort of the Genesis of this project um again I'm from Beacon Integrated Solutions and an owner's agent for pushing at public schools and helping look at how we optimize the opportunity to First address the issues of the school schol location um whether it's inefficiency of uh energy infrastructure or whether it's Comfort issues or environmental issues doing looking at a performance contract allows for the optimization of a host of different projects combined together as a comprehensive solution to address the problem and improve the infrastructure um when when um uh Patrick first brought me on we took a

025look at what the what the large issues were that were facing the school with respect to the humidity concerns and also the lack of control and I give um a significant amount of kudos to the school department for working so hard in a in a heavy human resource intensive way to try to manage the issues so that they don't get worse it's cly a Band-Aid approach it's a Band-Aid approach that has many points of failure if not properly maintained but they have been able to effectively through the utilization of Staff resources both on regular time and overtime to deal with the humidity issues from in classroom specific dehumidifiers and air purifiers which does require human intervention to ensure that they are working properly and maintaining the level of humidity in the buildings the other issue

026is the lack of of controls in the buildings the controls systems that are there that operate and maintain that operate all of the hbac equipment um are are old and some obsolete um equipment that isn't controlling the state the air temperature and or quite frankly the humidity levels in the classroom so you could walk in to a class one classroom and it's you know in the low 60° temperature and another one's up in the 80s and it's just not a healthy learning environment for the students and not productive and so train was engaged as Morgan mentioned earlier through a public procurement process um called Energy Management Services which enables the the the school district quite frankly and the and the town um it enables public entities to go out with a comprehensive procurement to elect

027a firm to do design and build work and stand behind it with an annual guarantee for performance uh and a series of protocols to demonstrate that the project is performing as intended in this case you've got some high quality improvements like building envelope and Energy Management Service systems that will be bringing savings actual cost savings to the table much of that savings is being used to in reinvest instead of sending it to eversource to reinvest back into your buildings in the energy infrastructure in the VF system that Morgan spoke to in addition that the Aging but fully operational with years of life left on it boil fired boilers that you have will be will remain in place and serve as a backup if and when needed to supplement the vrf heating and cooling solution Morgan

028mentioned a minute ago that we have been working um very directly with eversource they engaged a highly respected engineering firm energy engineering firm in the industry um who works for private entities public entities and now has been working and selected to work with ever Source on helping us do even a greater level of technical due diligence in looking not only at the proposed Solutions and and how they may be optimized but also to ensure that the control systems that are put in place are are fully designed in a way to to ensure that the building is operating efficiently effectively and and properly so that second level of technical due diligence that's not just sitting on on trained shoulder but they're sitting as a as an entity at the table really helping us optimize this project

029and to the extent we're able to Garner more value or more benefits out of the project because of their expertise and their recommendations or quite frankly identify alternative that perhaps bring costs down we would f integrate all of that into the into the project to ensure that a cushan public schools got the best project at the highest value thank you [Music] back anybody have questions I got a quick question uh I'm just curious uh if this project uh goes through I'm kind of wondering like the maintenance of the system uh specifically I'm curious about like Duck cleaning is that is that an annual requirement and and what's involved does train do that will the town have to get a contractor I don't know buildings decize what that involves this document so I I I can

030take a let me just take sort of a broad stab at answering that question and then I'll I'll um turn it over to Morgan maybe to add some additional color it it is anticipated that a cushion of public schools will continue to maintain its mechanical systems in the in its buildings and we'll plan for annual operations and maintenance expense as it would normally with the existing equipment we don't anticipate there'll be a significant amount of onm required for the oil boilers although so they'll still be operating for domestic hot water um so they still will need to be maintained but additional maintenance on the new equipment is expected as we all know new equipment tends to require while it will require preventive maintenance it won't likely or it should not because of warranties and just

031new technology it won't require um an allowance for broken body parts and other things that curent currently are embedded in the school Department's budget so once this program is implemented um Public Schools will be expected under their contract with train to do annual preventive Mains on on equipment installed and other equipment in the building as it would otherwise do thank you Beth and just to add there thank you for your question um the one of the energy conservation measures mentioned was duck ceiling so I believe that once duck ceiling is completed it lasts for a number of years I mean it doesn't need to be recommendation by training that every year or two years that we have to have the system it's recommended to have the system cleaned for ducks please no no yeah go

032ahead to to I mean in residences you live we don't get it cleaned every year first of all the second important point is they replacing filters in the air handling units with high efficent filters that will minimize your duck cleaning procedures going forward you don't expect to clean them every year maybe once in 5 years once in 10 years with these hyper filters and if the filters are not dirty that means the ducts are not dirty either MH so train does that or is that a contract so we do have a significant maintenance arm so we have a a wide range of Mechanical Services and control services technicians that are driving around the state all the time um that would need to be an addition component maintenance and and operations um would be an added

033arm that can absolutely be included um we do have the capability to service and maintain but ultimately what's included and required in into this Energy Management Services agreement is measurement and verification of savings um and Beth I'm not sure if you can you can talk to how you believe those two can or cannot be combined but um we do have the capabilities to do service thank you and there there's two other pieces along with that you know something we enjoy about these types of projects is the long-term partnership between train and a district or any other customer that we have so we can help you plan proactively for what needs to get done every year every 3 years every 5 years and in addition to that the visibility you're going to have through a building

034automation system controls as Beth calls it you're going to be able to see if things start to go wrong slightly you'll see that far before things catastrophically and expensively go very well mhm thank you s question um has anyone looked at how much maintenance of this system will be in comparison to what we've had to do in the past and as far as like the efficiency what that's going to do for energy costs things of that nature I think that would be really helpful to understand I don't know if anybody's tackled that but just understanding how this will then save here I think would be helpful I don't know Patrick if you've got data points on that I don't have data points um especially because of you know some of the unknowns with what we're

035moving forward but also the unknowns of what has occurred in the past I mean we have conflicting record of when the the vents were last cleaned um you know what as someone has spoken to versus what invoices have shown um you know routine maintenance in the buildings in general the upkeep of equipment seems to be reactive instead of proactive which we want to get away from um so it's tough to gauge in a in a system that would be working perfect and effectively and efficiently um compared to now you oranges to to say if there were savings or not but I would assume there would be because we would have a plan and we'd be able to plan for those expenses ahead of time and and budgetarily versus something breaking say that again the Manpower

036right because the custodians are going in and cleaning like right now the Manpower is is expensive um we have those dehumidifiers being emptied daily sometime on the weekends over time so we would get rid of all so from a labor standpoint yeah so that would all be eliminated because the system's working how it should appropriately be um you know we'd be reducing energy consumption because we don't have 50 units plugged into the wall anymore we don't have 50 air purifiers plugged into the wall anymore um we do come in on Saturdays and Sundays in the most humid of times and empty the dehumidifiers sometimes you know they overflow onto the floors before we get to them and now we're cleaning up you know the floors U it's seeping into the tiles the tiles are peeling

037we're replacing tiles it compounds um so yes it will address that sort of Maintenance but um as far as train has spoken to you know the the the air filter mechanisms that they'd be using would extend the life of the filters the duct work um the the need to clean them as frequently as we do um and we'd have savings there as well Mr K I know right now you're bailing the water out of uh boat that has holes in it but as you know we are in a financial crisis in the town can you quantify how much it's going to cost for maintenance whether you or trained or your expert and is that going to be a an additional line in the school's budget and also the staff that you need is it different

038from to maintain the system is it different from the present staff are you going to need to add staff are you going to add need to add different staff with different skill sets and what would be a training budget if you could quantify all that I've heard a lot of one will balance out the other I'd like to just know dollar and cents amount um so I'm not sure that I could provide that information right now we can talk about how one balances the other but yeah it's something we can work towards um again you know living dayto day in this District in these buildings I I want to stress the reactive approach to things instead of the proactive approach um we have one and a half maintenance workers across the two buildings um we

039have a vacancy at the facilities director right now once if and once these pieces of equipment are in service um you know there's adequate training that's going to be provided by train and I will let them speak to that um and you know we'll be able to implement our technology you know similar to our alarm systems and other that I can be sitting on the couch at home on my phone get an alert that something's acting up and dive right into the system and prevent a catastrophic event before it happens um so I I think it would be more efficient um from a a labor standpoint that we wouldn't need any additional individuals but I would argue as is we're short staff to for maintenance workers for 200,000 square foot buildings are you going to

040need an increase at anytime in the near future to the budget I think take care of I think we that we can try to qualify that to the best of our abilities um but you know I talk a lot in our district about you know data is good only if the you know if it's good data right now I would argue the data that we have within the maintenance department is not good data because of again the reactionary measures that we take if we were to say our systems are working nothing's going to break this is you know a b and c of how to take care of things I'd be able to quantify it but being able to say a b and c and then knowing you know in between all of those measures

041are broken pieces left and right because of Aging equipment the maintenance is is obviously a lot expected to be a lot higher than a new system would be and and I just want to add that I don't think we can put a price on people's health and wellness quite honestly we're trying to preserve the Integrity of our schools and do it in the most efficient way and that is with this project we don't want to have to spend $100 million plus on two new schools we want to do this in the most efficient way and keep our staff and our students healthy and as you know Mr Kelly we've had people out on workers comp because of the issues that we've had with the air quality at the elementary school um and we have to

042do something about it and with that is the cost of yes workers comp but substitute teachers you know students that are absent is the cost of learning and education U you know some things are tangible some aren't um not to mention the noise level in all the classrooms with all the dehumidifiers running which is not an appropriate learning environment qualitative I know that Morgan's also going to talk about the training that you asked about I'd like I'd like to just chime in real quick I just I don't think what Mr Kelly was saying was to any in any way bring up the price of anybody's health or safety he is doing his job as the Town Administrator ask questions to plan for the future especially considering every year we go into the same problems we're

043asking the questions strictly from a financial standpoint in no way are we saying that putting a price on health and safety is even part of the conversation we're having right this second this isn't about that this is about us making sure that the town can support this so I need to be very clear about that what he's getting at isn't saying that the health and safety of the students teachers Administration is any way in question this is strictly from a financial aspect of it so what I can propose that I can do um obviously not now is take you know research what the routine maintenance would be on a your average school building of you know a certain square footage and the different components of it what the going price of that is now versus

044how frequently and um you know I guess at what cost future equipment these improved pieces of equipment would require it and that way we would have some sort of Apples to Apples comparison to quantitate can can I just add one other quick thing you know typically my experience working within the public sector typically the first thing that that gets put on the Shelf in at a time when you're trying to manage your budgets is maintenance and deferred maintenance has historically been a problem I suspect for a cushion it as it is with every other public entity that I work with it's not a judgment it's just sadly a reality what's happening now is your human resources that you have that would be doing other kinds of Maintenance in the buildings to help keep the systems

045operating efficiently right now are chasing behind dehumidifiers and and remedying situations resulting from um failures in this sort of Band-Aid situation deploying your human resources to work smarter on newer equipment that requires less band dating but more preventive maintenance is a better utilization of resources um I know Morgan will talk a little bit about the training they do they will be contractually required to train your staff and quite frankly or a subcontractor if you historically sub out for um preventive maintenance on your air handlers or your your air conditioning systems that you have now or your h&v units and the other Technologies in your buildings that are currently keeping your students comfortable right and so they're going to do contractually be obligated to do a very comprehensive training so that a cushion public schools has

046is fully empowered to properly maintain and conduct preventive maintenance on the systems that are being put in Morgan do you have any data points from other school systems that you've helped and put in a similar um you know done similar Ren Renovations that you could provide that will give us a sense of it was X now it's y we can absolutely attempt to budget and and we can budget what what we think maintenance will look like for this new system um but specifically for the systems that we're implementing just be helpful to get a sense Patrick's not going to have good data you might have better data that you can give us that'll give us at least a comparison to show what the expectation would be right um cuz I'm hoping for a drop right

047like I'm just hoping for a drop for all the various reasons we've already talked about but maybe you can give us the data points that and I think we may have even previous ly looked at it but it it's lost to me in my brain right now on on what that number exactly is my apologies um but we we obviously do have a maintenance Workforce and can budget that for you and and like I think folks have already mentioned there's it's not a requirement that you complete your maintenance with us right as long as you complete preventative maintenance and are maintaining the systems we maintain the guarantee um and and a bit about training was asked to expand on that um training is incredibly important to us as we know it is to you right

048um the worst case scenario for us is to install systems and not tell you how to properly maintain them and or use them because that does not leave us in a good position right a relationship wise or longterm wise um so we do extensive training after installation of systems U both on mechanical equipment and extensive training on controls equipment as well um so all building staff that would want to have access will be allowed access and they will be trained on how to use the systems how to change set points how to set up access on their phones computers laptops and how to make changes and or complete trending of how your buildings are operating over a longer period of time um I can also say that we do a first round of training right

049um and then usually a couple weeks later because we know people need time to use the system and and get comfortable with it we'll do a second round of training and then maybe a couple weeks later if more training is requested we'll do more training um so it's really we will do the extent to which we want to make you feel comfortable with the system um and I just to give you an idea of how we feel about training overall I had a um I have a client who is five 10 years somewhere in the middle there into a long-term agreement like this with train um and they had someone new come on board a new facilities director and they said you know this is a new system for them they're comfortable with a different

050system would you complet a training for them and we said absolutely we'll refresh the rest of your staff on the system and complete a full new training for this new staff member um so it really is we want you to feel comfortable with it and whatever that takes we we'll make happen are we going to need new staff more staff I am not you heard the uh Mr McIntyre say that we've got a vacant facilities director and one and a half C audience to operate this system are you going to need more than that I can comment on that if you like go ahead so something important here it it's hard to speak in full context to everything that's happening in all of your schools but what I can say is there's few things working

051for you with a project like this one is all the reactive things we're doing on a daily basis in every classroom with things like the humidifiers another is visibility from a phone or an iPad or a laptop on all that's happening You're Building through an automation system cuts down on the running around a lot it's very likely that all of your people are reacting 100% of the time you can cut that down drastically and they can start getting proactively after other things making every single person you have substantially more effective I'm just asking a simple question are we going to need more staff or not personally I don't believe we would all right thank you I mean we we need to speak to the fact that our maintenance staff isn't just responsible for equipment they're

052responsible for the grounds the snow clearing you know it it's you know restocking paper in Supply rooms you know we're a small District we have limited personnel and we all wear multiple hats including our custodians including our maintenance team um I think we can maximize uh what they're capable of doing with new equipment and proper training that we would not look to add a Personnel for this can I ask a dou Sor go Dr bu first all right so from the finance committee perspective we want to make sure that we're minimizing the impact on our TA taxpayers in this town and we're exploring all options to solve the problem that we're trying to solve here right so the problem that we're trying to solve I believe is mainly a humidity and moisture issue correct control

053in controls building man well it's okay so and but it's not mainly a decarbonization issue the decarbonization and I'll let you know our experts speak to that more is where you captured significant incentives to drive the cost of the project down that's not the the main problem we're trying to solve though so where I'm going with this is could we look into other companies that could possibly do an industrial siiz dehumidification system to just solve that problem without all a lot of this expensive high-tech stuff that's going to require maintenance so so again the solutions comprehensive I understand where you're coming from what I'm trying to show is we could get a $2 million project these aren't the real figures down to million with decarbonization and other related incentives versus the solution you're proposing could

054come in at 1.5 million so surface level you're comparing 2 million to 1.5 but then when you introduce incentives this comprehensive project actually becomes more affordable More Energy savings um and it comes with all this measurement and verification rather than an install and run um no training no no no anything that we've spoken to already um we've had this conversation um we've we've actually reached out to the vendor that the finance committee or yourself had suggested um and we had a conversation with them and we're going to engage trains Engineers with theirs um but ultimately uh you know specific to this vendor their expertise is in the dehumidification of military aircraft and storage units and warehouses um you know their feedback on a school system would be potentially installing equipment in every single classroom um

055which is similar to what what we have now with these manyi dehumidifiers and air purifiers um along with reproducing all the structural and engineering and electrical engineering that train is already you know completed um but again that's where the teams are willing to work together and see if there is a fit for that knowing that the vrfs and the decarbonization are what drives the price of this project down and that going in that direction could drive the price of the project up um they also alluded to the fact that they probably would not be capable of project this scope without working under train as a subcontractor so I think that is important um to hear um that they truly feel that they would need to rely on a lot of the expertise and due diligence

056that train has already conducted I just I think before before we have hearings with our residents in town I think it's going to be important to to demonstrate that we've gotten a couple other proposals not just one proposal I mean to just go into town like a town hearing with only one proposal uh we're not doing that's going to we're going not be doing our due diligence here so I just want I'd like Beth and Morgan to touch base on that too I know we've had this conversation before about the whole process of the IGA and you know the vetting of train and the engineering analysis and now eversource stepping with the technical analysis of the solution we're proposing um and the good better best process that we've gone through um has been laborious and

057and diligent um so I I think that should help that conversation um but again I think there is willingness to explore this proposed option of U desicant wheel technology and see if it is more favorable after all um that doesn't this project or this vote and this not to exceed amount um isn't okay doesn't mean that this project is moving forward as planned it just gives us the ability to move a project forward at the end of the day if all these votes succeed the select board still has to execute a contract which outlines the costs the equipment the solution so on and so forth so this is opportunity to enter into a place where we can do that rather than continue to Kick the Can down the road and see tariffs on equipment that

058are going to spike the price because we waited 2 3 4 years waiting for that bandaid to rip off and then spend another $300,000 on you know a deep clean and school closure and and small equipment and then continuing you know all these inefficiencies so I think that's an important part to recognize in this process is yes we're pushing through a solution the study doesn't need to stop until the contract's signed um and and the the debt exclusion that we would propose is the opportunity to enter into a contract and then a second vote to secure debt up to to the not to exceed amount that was voted on by the debt exclusion and then nothing happens until the the select board signs a contract saying yes we accept this project and yes we will

059go out to our our our financial advisor and and obtain a a ban or a bond to that not to exceed amount um so there's there's time to continue to conduct studies and research and to find comps but I feel that we have done that internally through this process that you know is vetted out you know considerably and that's where I'll hand it over to Beth and Morgan to sort of speak on the process more because performance Contracting is a lot different than um you know just construction procurement um so so it's not again not an apples to Apple's comparison can I uh just jum in real quick um Mr gasar has a question real quick before Beth elaborates on that so just going back to the warranty maintenance issue I'm sure that your systems

060I have a little booklet that says that if you don't provide this kind of Maintenance to the system and proof of that maintenance to the system it would automatically void the warranty isn't that correct so there's a checklist there's a checklist for your maintenance of the system that says that we would have to do X or whoever's going to do it X Y and Z for maintenance schedule year over-ear or every 6 months this needs to be proof of this needs to be done I.E changing out filters in the air systems right can't have clogged air systems and expect things to work right so you would be following a schedule per se for maintenance in order to maintain the warranty from train correct so in here it says train is the performance of the system

061guarantee for the life of the agreement legislation mandates that train monitor verify and Report annually on the performance of each energy conservation measure C ECM this can be achieved through various methods each different Associated cost so if you're mandated by legislation to do this on a yearly basis and I think one of you touch based on that yearly thing that you measure cost savings and all that stuff efficiency and all that and you have to be in compliance with that if you were doing that wouldn't that didn't tell you that something's wrong with the system and maintenance it could trigger something for you folks to look at and say something's not right it's not being as efficient as it's supposed to because you're mandated by legislation to do this over the full term term and

062I believe that term of your equipment is 20 years is that true too that is the equipment warranteed for 20 years no so the the maximum agreement term per the legislation is 20 years so that is the energy Management Services agreement Max contract term is 20 years and that we would have to perform measurement and verification for the life of the agreement so if you elect to do a 20-year agreement we would be performing measurement and verification up to 20 years so then what is your what it says in here about a one-year warranty which is it just says are there any issues or failures with the project after warranty mhm so covered for the full 20year term of this agreement so that's why I was thinking you what is your warranty on all components

063right so all train construction projects um come with a standard oneyear parts and labor workmanship warranty so anything within one year uh from final completion to or substantial completion to one year is 100% covered both both labor and parts any train equipment and or any equipment that we carry and pass through will naturally have a warranty associated with the equipment usually that's a parts only warranty although labor warranties and extended warranties can be purchased on top of that I seen that so that would be my question so what is the actual warranty because you you kind of it depends on the piece of equipment that's why it's difficult to answer so some pieces of equipment have let's say a compressor for 5 years Parts only um some pieces of equipment have a heat exchanger warranty

064that may be up to 10 years um so it really varies depending on it varies depend on the design your system whose components are in the system what components make up the system they all carry different warranties and then naturally if it's not our equipment whatever warranty comes with that piece of equipment we would just pass one your pots and label warrant cuz that's kind of cheesy we're if you're going to spend $4 million on a system over say 20 years if that's whatever the bond whatever you folks are thinking for bonding um for 20 years one year is pretty cheesy right so what is the extended warranty cost for parts in labor that would be specific per piece of equipment um so I would have to investigate you couldn't you don't do anything systemwide

065I don't believe we do extended systemwide warranties um it's really equipal you have to go back to each manufacturer of each component and say you offer a 5-year warranty on this control what is the extended warranty cost for me to get 15 more years yes for equipment that is not trains we would have to go investigate that and for for for equipment that is trains what's the answer to that question I would have to go pots in labor so what is the extended warranty and what is the cost on all train equipment you can make that a 2year a 5year a 10year warranty and there's just a cost benefit that goes risk versus cost I can get just know the systems on they're not that reliable longevity wise for 20 years and we're asking the

066residents and taxpayers of of the town to spend let's just call it three and a half million and whatever we're Bing it for 20 years I can tell you right now that system will not last 20 years without substantial cost associated with it so it's kind of hard to buy something I think everybody in the room would say am I going to buy something with a freear warranty and pay for it for the next 20 years right so I think that's a I think that's how how do how do we get our arms around that and sell that bag of goods to the residents right that that's I'm sure that would be a question from anyone else that has I think any standard use for life of equipment right now um speaks to equipment lasting

067for 20 years so you know I don't know what a comparison is you can talk about a car some people can get you know 200,000 MI out of a car some can get you know 90,000 out of it it's how you take care of it so I I think with the training you know with the measurement and verification we would want to make sure that we're taking care of it and getting that 200,000 Mi out of the car we can certainly offer uh yeah so we can we can look at the costs of an extended warranty my my understanding was price point you know increasing is not what's in the appetite of the Town um I guess I have my own question that if train was contracted to complete the maintenance of this equipment would

068that change anything as far as warranty um liability if you will we have different levels of maintenance agreements um that extend from us doing regular preventative maintenance all the way up to what we call a select contract and a select maintenance contract actually includes everything um if anything were to go wrong we would come and fix it um for 20 years that I'm borrowing off that's what as long as you have people hold those contracts for 20 years we do have people sir pardon I couldn't hear yeah good you can hold that contract for any period of time yes it's an ongoing train how much is that warranty package that's whatever she said celest or whatever that we call a select select yeah package so it is it $500,000 on top of the project cost

069is it a quarter of a million dollars on top project cost cuz I think it's important there's got to be some kind of a guarantee right I mean if if you're going to spend 3.5 million would it be wise to add $150 or $200,000 in that package to give everybody a piece of mind and Al alleviate that uncertainty would saying we don't we don't have anything to do with it we're covered by this policy right it's like by an insurance policy that's all we're doing we can certainly provide that information I think I think it's important that you do that for the whole system wide and that's my question I guess is it on new equipment exclusively or every piece of equipment in a question in public schools every no so that's the other problem

070right so just what you would be responsible for what you this package is installing right and then we come into the problem is what happens when you get into we put a price tag again let's just use a 3.5 million right I'm sure you've done a lot of studies on our existing systems but the way Pat R's talking about oh you know being reactive instead of proactive and I and I use that terminology a lot in my sentences as well is we don't know you don't know what you don't know and when you folks come in you start installing a system and you and you turn them on live does it start causing havoc on the other end of the system that's not been upgraded right and and then that shuts down and we go

071uhoh that's 100 Grand well then that's a great point that is really the benefit of the building automation system and that being installed on all pieces of equipment new and old is what will really help all of these systems work in concert to provide optimal environments and not fight each other um the way that you mentioned and be able to Lally monitor it and identify it as it starts working against each other MH yeah I think what's important is to differentiate between warranty right and guarantee so the warranty is traditional if you know the one of the 18yearold or however old it is about that um no it's older than that boilers as an example if the if the heat exchanger cracked and you have to replace a boiler now you're going to get a

072boiler with the standard warranties right you're going to replace it because you need to you need to provide heat to the school you're going it with with as efficient as you can get with standard warranties unless you choose to opt up to an extended warranty and pay for that it's a similar analogy here for a guarantee under the legislation train is required to do annual analysis to demonstrate that the systems are performing as intended in their an in the analysis with respect to energy utilization and ort to the the um School District um on that those findings every year and and quite frankly the school district needs to file that report with the Commonwealth to demonstrate that the savings that were anticipate are in fact being achieved and if they're not being achieved then there

073is a mle provision built into the contract as contemplated in the legislation so if there for some reason the systems that train design are not generating the results that they anticipated contractually and as required by law they need to fix the problem so it doesn't occur again and they need to make the community fall for any loss benefit that it would have would have had because it's understood that you have Debt Service that you need to pay and and frankly while this project is not going to pay for itself through Energy savings and incentives and reates and grants it's a contributor toward an as an offset to your debt service I I think I think the other piece is with respect to and I hear you I agree all equipment should be maintained to the

074extent you have systems in place right now that either are are being properly maintained or have are are not being maintained on a schedule that quite frankly the school department would like to maintain um those pieces of equipment or quite frankly the town the town owns lots of equipment in its buildings and how those are being maintained on a regular basis and to the extent you have new equipment that has been properly installed calibrated commissioned operating well the deployment of your resources can be redeployed to areas that with older equipment to continue to baby it so that it works and it continues to work as efficiently as it can and your boilers are still working fine they have plenty of useful life left even though they're you know 20 plus years old and so I

075agree with you that all new Sy like once we have at our home we need to do preved maintenance to make sure that our systems are operating efficiently and effectively and to the extent you're able to identify problems before they are are significant there should be plus Savings in from existing um operations and maintenance cost costs the guarantee that she just talked about is great the warranty still matters the most right cuz that's a malfunction of a component that could cost 10 20 I don't know all these components but I know that these components in AC systems they're not 500 bucks right a control could be a few thousand bucks 10,000 bucks whatever it may be I'm not familiar with this system but I know that these things if it's got a computer in it

076it's big bucks right you know so I mean you can give us a breakdown of the most expensive components that are going into the system and then I guess that would judge what we would say for a warrantee maybe we can look at that and say well the most expensive component is $50,000 it wouldn't make sense to buy a extended whatever that warranty was that you called it for $250,000 we'll take the we'll take the risk right so I think it's important you give us an analysis of the components I don't you don't have to give us a $5 ones but maybe the top 15 components of the system that you're you're proposing to install and give us a price point for each one of those so we can as a town can make better

077judgment of what we might want to do as far as a warranty goes right yes I mean the guarantee she talks about is great right the warranty still matters the most right cuz that's where the price the money is ultimately you're absolutely correct it's the balance of risk versus dollar cost right so if we can help get you that information ultimately that's not ours to tell you what's best for the district providing you the information to make know the highest cost top 15 components highest cost then look at it as a group and say okay you know the highest cost of any component is $30,000 right and then we could ask you you know what's the failure rate on that component I mean you have a lot of background on your team I'm sure Train's

078been around for decades you folks can say that's a relatively new component we've only been using it for 5 years it's not that much history on it or this is a component that we used for the last two decades and we've had three fail out of 3,000 right right pretty good failure rate we say okay no not a problem we won't take that chance I think that would be helpful for us yes happy to do that from the warranty stand Mr chairman Mr Kell just to keep going on warranties uh just a very simple thing upfront to let you know you described the various Milestones on making sure that the warranty on the roof is not voided and stays valid yes well in the town's contract with train we're going to need a shity guarantee

079throughout that period of time from the time you start until the time the roof contractor says the warranty is still in place where going to need charity to make sure that that is true I just upfront when we get into contractual discussions we're going to need that so we it's because we just did a school roof on that roof and and I think it was somewhere in the realm of $2.5 to $2.7 million and we were very creative on the town side on to finance that 13ish we'll call it right and we're still making payments on that roof so I mean we can't just say go ahead and throw air conditioning rooftop units up there whatever other units you need to put up on the roof walk away from the project and next thing you

080know we got drip drip drip in where we just we just spent almost the equivalent less a little bit less than what you're asking for for this kind of a system so we're not going to Avid that warranty and worry about this warranty they they go hand and foot right so you said you I think it was young developers you said correct for the roof that we just did so we we need to see that from them not from you we need to see that that warranty will be honored um and then I think Mr Kelly brings up a good point where there's assurity on top of that while you're doing your work so under the statute they need to post payment and performance fonds during construction I think what you're suggesting which I'm I'm

081I'm asking the question in addition to the payment and performance funds for 100% of the cost you would want a bond in in place during construction until there's a sign off that the warranty on the roof has not been um impacted is that right is that what you're saying we want charity in place through the whole construction period until the contractor that holds the warranty now says the warranty is still valid yeah so I think I think Beth I think you got it right question question just you know I don't want to have to State the obvious I don't want to see anybody with health issues I don't want to see asthma attacks that's not the line of questioning you know what Paul you know when you mentioned stuff about you know you can't put

082a price on health I feel like I've got to at least identify myself in this conversation um you know I've been doing this for close to 34 years in this town I've seen School construction take place I've seen projects get shot down I've seen projects succeed and you know I'm not going to question the need that's up to you guys to decide and I would never ever question the motivation I'm not in the building the teachers are the students are so I want to make that perfectly clear I look at this from a solution-based mindset and at least from my perspective the pay for is always It's always important right and so any project that I've endorsed or supported and Paul you I think you can vouch for this whether it's soccer fields here first

083thing I said to aysa you need to put some skin in the game you know you need to put some money in this thing right so um I go back to I think Bob and John when when we were looking to do the the school Renovations we sat with Harold dine and said look if you want a major project like this you're going to look at your your overall budget and and your approach there um so you know I look at it a forward is asking the taxpayers for some not all is there some from existing funds that we have whether it's in stabilization free cash or you know we've on the town hall side of things we've created a a a capital stabilization account because we know that we've got maintenance on a police

084station on a library on town you know Town buildings that we've got to execute and so you know I I I asked the school committee to really look at your operating budget and to see if there's a way to free up some funds to contribute to this because it is a responsibility it's an obligation and that's that's my that's my input for this thing I want to be supportive I want to get this thing done but I also we just can't go to the taxpayer and say that's the only way this thing can be funded cuz they are cuz I don't want to take the the historical approach and say oh my God if this this passes then people are going to be foreclosed on then they're going to pay their they're not going to

085be able to pay their rent they're not going to be able to pay them their their taxes we're not going to go there right so we got to make sure that before it goes to the um the taxpayer that we've looked on to every SE cush so Mr I think you make some very important points there and you know whether we can see what we can come up with but whether you know everyone sitting here at the table knows it or the crowd or you know who whoever may be we we can we already do that consistently with our use of facilities fund um with our school Food Service fund we take care of all the equipment in that department without asking for dollar um and we try to do the same with our own

086Reserve like it's not a reserve it's our revolving account um through the use of facility rental funds that we receive you know um so so we do I do appreciate that comment but I do want to share that it that exists already and we can see how much further we can that's standard operating procedure okay this is an extenuating circumstance what you're doing again that's off to you it's a standard respectfully tapping into revolving accounts and relying on those for Capital fixes is not standard operating procedures it's nice to have and and it's good that we can do it but it it isn't standard a lot of schools don't have the funds in their food service account to pay for a half a million dollar Refrigeration project a lot of suggesting is maintaining running your

087department sure is what you should be doing so if you're looking for creative ways to do it good for you with with with an operating budget that's you know appropriate for the needs and services that we want to provide process for that to talk to the debt exclusion piece um I know our town assessor is is out of office currently um she has helped me in calculating some of these rates uh what we've done preliminarily um we're going to have this really defined in line by line per year um if we're looking at a 20-year Bond um just as an extreme we used a 4 million $4.5 million borrowing um which would amount to about $6.4 million after interest over 20 years the average payment if you will I mean again it es and flows

088you're going to have a maximum payment that's close to 400,000 and a minimum payment that's you know a third that but averaging at over 20 years is about $320,000 um which what would be what we would be looking at on average for principal and interest um the impact that that would have on the average single family tax in a cush is $71 per year um and that's essentially based on a a a $500,000 medium value of a home um so you so you're saying take the taxpayer piece out of the the 70 bucks or whatever so you're looking at a321 $320,000 a year bogy again a at an amation that the town government would say hey you know what maybe we could do this with a combination of that that would that would be the

089amount I mean we can share budgets so on and so forth just like we did with the with the school we didn't want to go to the taxpayer for that we figured out a way to do that thanks yeah so I i' I'd be happy to have those conversations with you know the Town Administrator select and the finance committee to see you know what what is sitting there in different stabilization funds and what sort of opportunity there is I you know quite frankly I view going to the taxpayer for a debt exclusion for a generational project right so it was the police station we knew we were in the Dire Straits there we went to that um you know so that's that's the scope if you if we were looking to build a new school

090because these were in then okay that's when you want to use that chip to go before the the voter to fund something so you know D respectfully if we don't do this now doesn't get done then do we go to the voters for a brand new school eventually CU that's probably what will happen if we don't maintain these buildings I think what I'm saying is the challenge is to see if we can find the $320,000 Within town government to fund the project or a portion of that right from existing before going to the tax GP so just for the sake of the timeline we would have to again work together between now and uh you know putting the ballot questions together to know whether or not we have to ask ask for a certain amount

091um again from there if say we stick with the 4.2 to buy time and that's voted and it succeeds it goes to town meeting with those articles to borrow up to the 4.2 at that point before we sign a contract we still have more time to figure out you know the you know the financial health of the town and the reserves and what what we can do to be creative um would you like a not to exceed I I don't what I'm suggesting caller is I'm looking at a Deb exclusion vote as the absolute last option and the challenge is is there something we can do to bring down the taxpayer obligation between now okay I I just have a question gave to that um yes that makes complete sense to see if we can

092do something in-house before going to the taxpayers my only concern is yesterday when talking to the finance committee and the Town Administrator without the town accountant and the part time uh accountant that we we kind of have to pay the bills and we don't have a treasure how are we going to know quickly cuz I guess we need to figure this out in the next couple of months of how much money there is to finagle with as you mentioned like can we find is there so we don't need the town account can figure it out we don't need I can tell you numbers Miss goes I can tell you based on my financial history with this town I can tell you right now if Patrick was to give me a better number I could stop

093breaking down that number relatively quickly cuz I know it's sitting on the books right now and I could do my best with the board to figure out if we could do this a different way other than a Deb exclusion relatively quickly I've already looked at the numbers I'm already doing calculations I don't need a town accountant sitting inside of a desk upstairs we have a great town accountant that we have at ad disposal to call and ask a question to but all I really need to know and in the breakdown for household sounds about right based on what we did in 2004 15 with a police department at $5 million relatively close um neither here or there I think to Mr lona's point is we've always tried to have the approach of how could we

094do this without a debt exclusion and we've done this board of Selectmen and past Boards of Selectmen have done a phenomenal job keeping Deb excl exclusions off the books off the taxpayers back in this community I can speak for that because I was part of it all this time and I'm already reviewing that now and I've already gotten pretty creative on your 320 number but you just blew that 4 point something up to 4.5 or whatever and then with the interest and everything else and that's important to get that Max number down the principal down because the interest is really what kicks you in in the behind I I I I was just doing it to be conservative we want to go somebody wasn't giving you a number through all of this though no you

095don't have an actual number went to the treasurer who went to no I'm talking about train not to exceed the 4.2 it's what I'm sorry not to exceed 4.2 to well that's the that's that's the hypothetical 4.2 is that the number that they gave you but then you said something about Mr bu think talked about green energy and all that backing that number off you put a number in here of 25500 so if it's 4.2 it comes down to 3.5 3.7 if you get the max five right so that 500 Grand if that's grants and all that other Mickey Mouse stuff that kicks a lot of interest off right and and I'm not talking 320 I'm I might be talking 275 so there's a big difference on what somebody can do mathematically if they're given

096bad numbers versus good numbers and we can be very creative and I and I told you that I've already been working on this and I do have a creative way to share with the board in in the Town Administrator and I've already discussed some of the things right so respectfully they're all good numbers because there's three different situations it could be 4.2 million with no incentives if we don't get the grant if we don't receive ever Source incentives it could be four if we receive ever sources anywhere from 200,000 to 500,000 it could be less if we receed the Grant from 250 to 500,000 it could be less the idea is by the time we sign the contract those incentives are in place that we all only borrow up to the amount we need for

097now we need to plan three different scenarios to be able to educate the taxpayers worst case you know maybe conservative case and then best case so respectfully I think we have to look at it three different ways and have a plan all three different ways in case those incentives don't become locked in Patrick help me understand we can't find that out before the town votes on this so the grants we can't control when those are released they were supposed to be released in January um the awards it hasn't been awarded yet um the eversource incentives they're conducting their technical analysis um that we've been working with them thoroughly on uh eversource with their in their separate engineer that they've paid for outside of their own company to essentially audit Train's work and based on thresholds

098and benchmarks that we can hit and prove that we can hit through their engineering those incentives change so right now we have we we project to have that incentive pretty much loed in by our public Hearing in March which we're we're anticipating for March 20th for those paying attention tonight so we can so by the time that we to vote June 2nd at town meeting we should have a a pretty finite number and then we will absolutely have a finite number when we go to borrow um thereafter and I know we talked about different Alternatives that were reviewed analyzed and maybe this has been part of an other presentation and if it was I'd love a copy of that presentation but be helpful to understand what other Alternatives were thought through why they were you

099know eliminated um awesome I'm not sure if you're done with your question I'm no that's it I just I we just want to know like just Dr bu's point you know did we just fixate on this it would be important for all of us to understand what the all the what the other Alternatives were that were thought through why they were discounted removed so that we can understand kind of the the process 100% And thank you very much for your question um I do want to start off by saying our our purpose uh when we walked into your buildings to do the investment grade audit which is a crucial step in the Energy Management Services process we did not say this is going to be a vrf project we are going to decarbonize your buildings

100that will be the goal that was not what we walked in and and identified we walked in and said what is going on in these buildings what is the current state what are the current systems how are they operating and what is happening in the buildings that might need to be addressed or improved then we do what Patrick mentioned earlier which is analyze really what we view as a good better best situation which went all the way from replacing like for like and doing a simple standard condensing units or Mini Splits all the way up to identifying what a geothermal project could look like so really went from from basic to extensive right um part of what I wanted to give you in the documents that you were handed today was this executive summary that

101really details how we went about that um it's eight eight pages so I understand that it's a difficult and I did not give you enough time to really read through it before the meeting right um but I would encourage you to read through because it does do a pretty really from our perspective a good job of understanding and detailing what's the current state what's happening with maintenance what are the current systems how are those working right now and what were the different options that we had considered and some of that was desicant dehumidification um DX humidification um in different different types of systems through all all five of the ecms that we talked about today and it details the pros and cons of each price-wise operational what Manpower it would have taken efficiency and impact

102on your buildings and utility budgets um so we did consider all of those beforehand and and in evaluating those yeah it's it's all in that document um and through that and through multiple conversations with with with the schools um we had honed that specific solution and that really was because like Patrick had mentioned earlier the um incremental increase of the vrf equipment um and the additional incentive to bring that down much more than what it would have been to have a simpler type of equipment and when you were evaluating the different options were you looking in at like Allin costs and possible savings versus over over period of time okay and is that detail in here I guess when I think about the tax when I think the tax account some was going to say

103tax by okay when when you're looking at the savings I'm not just looking at the price difference for installation but operationally right like at least 5 years or maybe a 10e Time Horizon what are we all in at cuz I think that would be important I don't want to make a decision right you know one thing that we talked about yesterday shortterm versus long-term right making decisions strictly on one criteria a short-term solution right I want to look at it from a long-term perspective like what is this going to cost the town right and making sure that the residents get that information so that way we can then figure it out I also to the extent that we can refine that number as much as possible I think is also extremely important um before we

104just go all in right absolutely long-term operations and Energy savings over the life of the contract so the potential maximum term of 20 years was conent pled and part of that is all in a 100 plus document page document that is the final investment grade audit um so that that can be shared with you all and does include 20 20year cash flows um for Energy savings associated with the pro the that'll help pay for the for the project cost right well that said it's not going to cover itself right but at least it'll help subsidize I'm not asking for I'm just asking what that number is it's minimal I believe it's a few thousand um it's what a few thousand over 20 years a few th000 energy cost that's penis that ain't helping me at

105all yeah but I can tell you what's not being it's in Patrick you said borrow up to 4.2 but when you ran your analysis when Kelly was here and she'll be back this week um you said you ran at 4.5 right yes so that's a $300,000 difference right so 300,000 on a carrying cost of 20 years at 5% you're talking roughly $150,000 in interest right there alone it's not small change you're r savings is so that 300 Grand skews that number when I say interest just carrying that interest again I show I showed it to be conservative conservative we ran it from 4.5 million incrementally by a quarter of a million dollars all the way down to 3.2 million so I have all those amortization schedules I just wanted to show worst case scenario I

106mean already tonight we talked about adding maintenance plans warranties things like that that would all inflate the price that now we're advertising 4.2 and we find out a warranty is worth it and it bumps it to 4.4 well great I told you what the cost would be at 4.5 if all those incentives come in great you still have the cost of it at 4.5 and if you were comfortable with it at that you're going to be even more comfortable with it at 3.5 understood just trying to calculate to get back to mr's point trying to calculate and and come up with the numbers to perhaps maybe if you go if you have to go to a Deb exclusion it's minimal versus the full boat right so maybe if we get created and we can do

107certain things to say if the project cost us go with you 4.5 million we go for 2 million it basically takes that number and chops it in half that 70 becomes 35 per household for 20 years right it's it's it's simple enough math for us to do we just need to get better numbers figure things out and look at it because we can drive ourselves crazy saying we F we solved the problem the financial problem then you go oh no way cuz we can't find that last 100,000 bucks so I I will be over at the Town Hall office every day that you want me to be able to figure out these numbers um the last time we spoke we were essentially told it needed to be a debt exclusion so that's why we had

108it down this road um I'm glad that we can extend the conversation to to relief the taxpayers potentially of this project and and let's let's do what we can to make that happen um what we haven't talked about tonight um which I didn't want to talk about extensively is trains analysis also um looked at the component of solar a solar array and owning a solar array to offset the energy cost C that um you know we're adding because of the load of equipment um but generating Savings in in the district um you know ultimately we found out that probably owning solar isn't the most fiscally sound project for a kushit um but we also still have a power purchase agreement option on the table um that was voted on two years ago to be able

109to enter into contract um at town meeting for the board to select to enter into contract that is very much still in play that we can have further conversations about that um you know over over the life you know current projections we'd have to analyze those but over the life of that project I think I shared it with chairman hinley and My Town Administrator Mr Kelly um could be upwards to to $4 million over 25 years with a a carport and a a roof project which we wouldn't own we wouldn't have to maintain we would just reap the benefits of Energy savings so I I think that's you know pretty important to look into at this point in time too if we want to really work to alleviate the the tax impact the solar panels

110had going on the roof that's an old roof right nope that would be the AES that would be that would be the AES roof it would be all under warranty um to the train project quick question uh well Mr Kelly go ahead first uh Mr chairman a couple points uh not so much to train but the rest of the table knows that uh financially we've been uh very Innovative uh in how we've solved our problems over the last couple years and as some of you know Mr Gaspar and I were locked in a room for a month last year figuring out how to get out of the uh Financial mess we were in and uh we were pulling rabbits out of our hats and rolling quarters as Mr Gasper would say looking under every cushion

111and we took care of it and we can be Innovative with this but I do want to clarify for the folks sitting around this table that any of the stabilization accounts that are specific stabilization accounts cannot be touched except for the specific issue that they were created so even if we have money in the opab account you can't touch it so we have to go in and look at how we do this in other ways so one of the questions that came up in a previous uh you know budget subcommittee meeting with the finance committee was there's fund reserves um unassigned for and not I talk to that's a an accounting term they're assigned they're just part that was part of the general fund at that time can can you elaborate more on that or

112at this time we hadn't spent it yet but it was going to be spent what are you talking about can I ask that question no just off the financial statements um there was a question of clarity to say you know there there's F government fund reserves and it it showed restricted um for purpose as Mr Kelly spoke about OPB um you know education stabilization all all the things that we know Capital infrastructure regular General stabilization and then it had general fund unassigned and then it had General stabilization and it was to the tune about you know three and 3.5 million in each and we were just curious on what that balance represented and what those funds were for I don't have an answer that's why it was a question it's it's a I was told

113it's just a fund balance it is uh undesignated doesn't equate to free cash and it's just carried on the books as far as the atic goes so it's not designated General stabilization is there for unforeseen emergency raining and all that stuff right so there's no other magical $3.5 million roosting itself in a hen house somewhere okay it's it's roughly I think we're General stabilization fund somewhere around $3.7 million and that's a requirement by do that me we maintain as a municipality roughly 10% of your budget right so that's hence the $3.7 million okay can you vary from that a little bit and go off and say Hey you know we need for certain project two or 300,000 whatever it is and take yourself down to 9% or 8 and 1 half% without hurting your bond

114rating absolutely but if we went ahead and took a big percentage of that number and used it over here and you still went out to borrow then it's going to crush your borrowing rate right so that's that's the rule of thumb on all of that stuff there's flexibility for General stabilization and it's for these kind of Reason purchase Capital items and stuff like that but it's not to say go grab 3.5 million and bankrupt the town yeah and that wasn't what I was insinuating so there's no other $3.5 million Patrick I can assure you the not 23.5 million mons gold yeah the way it was presented in the financial statements without a a corresponding note in the financial statements was what prompted the question I didn't have I wish I wish we had another part

115of million can we can we share that documentation with them just so we knows what we're talking about we're asking you know working with our budget from the budget subcommittee I would suggest as far as going to have our our our town Auditors come in and present the financial statements at a joint committee meeting stabilization is not used for operating that's understood I'm not and I'm not inating that it should be or suggesting that it should be I I there were questions on a financial statement report that we could not get the answers from from the individuals in in the room that we represented by the town so we asked the question and I think it'd be you know I saw a lot of head nodding around the room to to to having the accountants

116that completed the audit present the financial statements just so we can all understand as well as the public the town's F fiscal and financial uh position um now and moving forward and understanding you know how these projects impacted as well as our operating budgets I think it would just be educational and informational for everybody just so you know you can go on Essence here at any point right it's like two years in the re but you can you can see a lot of good information right there financial information on DLS agre the presentation would be helpful though um I just think we're hearing a lot of different information so I was happy to hear Dave and yourself talk about being creative and looking for money in the town but when we go to a budget

117subcommittee there is no money right right and you're not at that meeting but we get different messages all the time so I think perhaps maybe we could have another joint meeting to talk about so that I can understand what it is you're talking about because I'm being shown those numbers as the town doesn't have it and we were told to go the debt exclusion route we don't want to put a burden on any of the taxpayers obviously we're trying to avoid a new building we're trying just to do the right thing we want to work with the town we want to work together but this was news to me that you have a solution to find some of the money tonight and I'm very happy to hear that that you're willing to do that um

118I don't I don't think it's so much a solution I think it's willing to put some extra effort in we we don't find out we found out what free cash was going to be a mon like two weeks ago so there's a lot of variables that change daily so this isn't us starting you know originally when this conversation started there wasn't any other option other than a debt exclusion and and when I when I talk about what I talk about finances and and and money I look at the basic recap sheet and I understand what a recap sheet is right and I understand what's there for how long it's there for right so and I know other revenues that the town has but when I try to solve problems with my board um and we

119try to be those creative of people in the room it's never got anything to do with stabilization that's not what I do right I don't I don't I don't just go off and say I'm going to finding something out of my bank account and in in 10 years I won't have anything in my bank account but I'm happy I'm driving that Ferrari and respectfully no one suggested that I know I understand I understand that but just I just want to for clarification I want to make sure that when I'm looking at money and I'm looking at revenues I understand it better than most people do so I can look at for instance what we just did with the school roof the board of Select did with the school roof we financed it with solar Revenue

120right so we're going to look at that when's that going to be paid off we paid what 600,000 the last down meeting Jamie 500 500 600 2,000 we're looking at we're look at the new something that right so I mean if we can get rid of that we can then look at Future solar panels projects that are going on in town what kind of Revenue stream that would be bring it in and possibly use that as the way we paid off the roof without a debt exclusion right this be a plan yeah I I don't want to speak for the school committee but I I think I can on this case that we would like to look at every viable solution that is out there to make this happen and if there's an opportunity to

121do this without a debt exclusion we would welcome that conversation it's safe to do it now assuming the debt solution what we were talking about is not finding money that is there it's how are we going to borrow the money and the creative ways we can borrow money reduce the amount of B whether we ban or we Bond or we partially do that and uh you're looking at right now a uh outstanding as far as uh total long-term debt in the town was 8,774 th000 as of July 1 2020 23 and we've been chipping away at that since then as Mr Gaspar said but worst case scenario is the way Patrick's been going and that's the smart way to do it but as far as an operating budget uh we're broke and we're more than

122broke and you can't use Capital money for operating money I just want to clarify this and Paul I'm sorry if you're getting caught in the crossfire um but maybe it's more a conversation that I should have with my elected colleagues it's is there a pot of money out there no but I would challenge you Ron and your your colleagues to look at your existing budget your subcommittee talk to the administration and say are there things that we absolutely have to have to operate the school system or are the things that we can I think conversation all the time we prioritize of course and say you know we've got this major obligation we have to do so we've got to reprogram or re look at things differently I just keep hearing that yeah but Dave I

123would put the same challenge back on you to say you guys should look at this as and and look to work with us to come up with a creative solution to make this happen Ron you're in control of you're in control of your own budget well you're saying you are but I think previously we've heard okay has to be a Deb exclusion now maybe there's other Alternatives cuz we kept working on it think's please I'm going to clear the here right now the animosity level between multiple committees we're here to work together there's no reason it there not at all I'm just saying I was presented a challenge I'm saying I think the challenge is for all of us to work together to find a solution and I think we all address that and that's

124what I'm saying I don't think we need to keep beating a dead horse we're all here to work together and and I sit down with Patrick quite often I talk to Patrick quite often to actively find a solution for this pass the information along to my colleagues it comes across whenever we sit in this room with these three committees it always comes across like one of us is trying to outdo the other and I'd like to put a stop to that because I think we're all work much better collaboratively than we do against each other and I think all of us have shown that we're interested in the project and we're trying to find a creative way to do it but I still feel like it comes off like well you said this you did

125this well you said this this is just as new to us it is is to you as we progress every day we find a little bit more here a little less here we have to keep moving forward put the heads together and get it done but we don't need to do this with back and forth we're throwing ideas out there we can figure this out and that's all I'm going to say but I can already see some animosity coming up and I know everybody else in this room can too and I don't think that's the way to do it so let's just figure this out without picking each other's boards apart and move forward you all I was going to add was I I think over the you know my short time here you know

126we've seen progress in that uh in my own opinion I'm not going to speak on behalf of anyone else um but we've been in different meetings with the finance committee with the select board with our own committee and anytime that anything was asked of us I feel that we've we've done our best to try to deliver and give those answers whether it's more detail at a at a budget perspective if it's you know going to a select board meeting to talk about a solar array a grant that will help the town if it's you know phone calls at 7:30 at night that weren't planned just to talk about Solutions I I think you know we've been there and we're willing to continue to put that foot forward I think a lot of the proof of

127that is is in our budget as well where we've you know maintained two to three percentages each year which um is difficult for the town but is also difficult for us to continue to operate um you know we're not we don't have to get into that conversation now we'll have our budget meeting um we can talk about mandated costs we can talk about required net School spending and how we're quickly approaching that line we can talk about the the flawed Chapter 70 formula and the minimum Aid We're receiving from that and ugga um all combinations of everything but it's not due to lack of effort of the Personnel in this room at least from my standpoint and I and I mean that to everybody at these tables I see everyone working hard and trying to

128find answers and trying to find Solutions I just want the clarification [Music] because Creative Solutions are great but every time somebody brings up a creative solution and I'm just going to harp on this one more time well we were told it was a a debt exclusion only we're trying to get creative so I want to lose that mindset well we were told this well we were told this we're trying to actively pivot to make this less AB bracet for the taxpayers but also to Pro protect the staff the students and the teachers ultimately whether you realize it or not when you make comments like you can't put a a price on the health and S safety of our employees and our students it comes off as like you're implying that we actively are trying to

129do that and I want to be clear that we're not we I did not mean that I and I know you didn't but it comes off that way and I know I'm not the only one that feels that way when you say things like that and we just really need to figure out how to do this without getting to the point where we can sense that animosity and I think we can and I honestly think we can and I think we've all had conversations together individually together and we've always come up with some kind of solution um But ultimately the butt you said this needs to stop ultimately let's just hunk it down and get it done yeah again agreed um I I I hate to keep going back and forth but to your again

130to your comment earlier at one point the solution and the only solution was a de exclusion it was the only choice right so that that is the last word that we had heard about it until now so now we are I mean we continue to want to work towards the success of this project however it may be preferably without a tax impact and you know let's let's get creative let's meet let's continue to meet whether joint or individually or whatever it takes so that we can find that solution for for the citizens of this town and for the employees of the school district Patrick I mean up until now we asked for one task from you give us what the max 4.2 debt exclusion cost for the taxpayers are and you provided that obviously we

131need some more numbers and we've got some more requests from train and I think that's going to be very helpful um once we lock in some incentive rates and we can really focus on that numbers it's going to help to and we can just go from there so we're not picking apart the fact that you did exactly what we asked you to do we we can definitely figure this out now and if that number comes in lower even better you seeing by March by your first public hearing You're Expecting The incentives from ever so us to be as locked in as an official that is the Hope certainly is that the 320,000 that's estimate estimated at this point yes all right what was the what was the interest rate that you calculated um I just

132I want to pull it up before I misspeak I want to say it was 4% and again that was what was provided by the treasurer through our our financial advisor hiltop Securities I did not pick the interest rate that was based on the borrowing company I understand calculation bear with me and I'll pull that pull that amount up as we continue conversation I would just like to say that you know from Finance committee's perspective um look we have limited revenue streams in this town that's something you know we need to we need to work on but right now the only thing we can control is what we spend and I don't want to see us St to go down that road where like some other towns are making it common place to try and fund

133their operational budgets by asking the residents for a tax override our residents are already over tax to begin with people are paying outrageous fees let's talk about utilities and eversource right outrageous 35% increase in electricity 20% increase in gas and then they're going to give people a 10% break and then recoup it a couple months later that's a joke uh we just can't keep asking our taxpayers to do more and more we have a lot of retirees in this town who are fixed incomes and okay so $70 you know for the year that that might not be a lot of money for for any of us here sitting at these tables but it could be it could be for them I don't know and then there's going to be other things coming down the road

134besides this some some bigger projects that we have to think about it's not just this so we have to think about the big picture long term what other big dollar projects are going to be before us um and we know potentially what one of them is it's going to be Old Colony um and that that could be a huge debt exclosure so that's going to be something that's going to have to get talked about at some point so it's it look we're this is challenging and we definitely all need to work together to come up with Creative Solutions uh without getting each at each other's throats um but we all we all need to be on the same team so we got very lucky and that's exactly what I want to bring out as a

135fact I'm not countering anything what we said here when we were looking at potential Solutions we were very lucky there were 50 12 Heating and ventilation units in the Attic in the ceilings and everywhere and there were old train units from 2002 so when we looked at them we figured there was a place for adding a cooling coil to those units which is what we got verified from our Factory so we did not have to replace those whole units we were just able to add a little cooling coil into it and be able to air condition the whole thing and de ify you would not we very very creative in coming up with the solution that we came forward to you with you would not have this solution if there was not a place for

136a cooling coil in the existing units you would not find a cheaper solution than this that cools the classrooms as well as deid as as deifies so just as a fact matter of fact that those air handing units had a place for a cooling coil which is what figured out that is How We R down this road than keep in mind as we because train has a des solution also but that would require new units out on the roof which will be more costly more floor space and all of that other thing that come along with it so what we think in our mind is our best solution that minimize the space and the cost for your schools just a couple questions um you had mentioned uh the contingency funds that were um put aside

137just in case they either replace other units that are there do you have a ballp park on what that what that amount was I think in our in our estimates um included in this not to exceed was something around the neighborhood of $775,000 a small change a small change um and that's really because it's small parts right but important parts um and we find this happens quite often where you know you put in this incredibly intelligent control system you put in some new equipment but but keep a lot of existing equipment for what we've been talking about which is really efficient use of what you already have um and you find that maybe you didn't know that some dampers or actuators weren't previously working so we decided to and is that the advice of the

138the school to carry a little bit of extra money in the project so that we weren't coming back to you for additional dollars to come and do um additional repairs um also the um you had mentioned building envelope been fixing various items in the building um such as walls ceilings whatever there's an issue with the gymnasium wall um with water infiltration is that included in this package I know we had talked about this with Pat but he had said no but are you guys under this impression or no no I do not believe that the the water leak and building exterior work is included in this project and part of that was due to timing again you know we were investigating the issue we tried just um repointing some bricks and recocking some areas um

139waited for rain spray some hose on it oursel to see if it prevented the water infiltration it did not um so then by the time we had an engineering team come in here and cut out um a section of brick on that roof um and they found out behind the scenes that it was really just installed poorly and improperly um they found that it was a bigger problem by the time that that happened that was late December um and train was well through putting their pieces together and ultimately what it comes down to is there weren't because this is a a Energy Management Service contract there isn't real Energy savings that would probably validate those construction costs under this procurement um and and be validated by the doe to say sure you know build that

140in so that is a separate project um you know again we've spent our own funds without coming to the town to to have that analysis done we're now looking at 40,00 ,000 for a bid design on just that closet and the expectations are on top of that the bids for the construction work will be six figures um so that is important and that does need to be addressed in the near future too but ultimately it's not energy related enough at the cost that it's coming in to to be mapped under this project um one last question for TR um is all your equipment made in the United States or are you getting it from Canada Mexico China yeah and you you probably know where I'm going with this with par stuff is that going to

141impact the actual cost of this project so similar to I think a good number of Manufacturers some of our components um are brought in from overseas but uh we're actually lucky most train manufacturing facilities are in the United States um so we have factories in Wisconsin and Colorado um Texas Florida South Carolina South Carol Columbia South Carolina Florida um all over the place um so guess bottom mind is is this do you perceive this as impacting the actual cost of the units or the equipment to these tariffs get forward there's a chance that it could have a small impact but I would I would hope that it's minimal in this case because of most of the manufacturing being done in the United States okay so you don't get sheet metal from Canada you have to

142pay the extra cost of we're likely to see that at 1 or 2% not 10 or 20% by any means and I'll say um so part of the benefit also of this type of procurement and contract is that it really is intended to be fixed in firm um so at the point at which we um agree on a contract and have a price um and it is ex executed that will be the price that we agree to um so that also hopefully will will assure you all that once we have a contract and it's agreed upon it's fixed in firm we will not hand you a change order for uh small increases related to tariffs unless you ask for more scope yeah unless we extend the scope and we add additional work with the town

143meeting being June 2 how long would you visualize it's going to take to lock in the contract price after that so we could have a contract ready for execution as long as can you have a for certainly if if we agree on a scope of work uh on a type of measurement and verification on a type of warranty extended or not a select agreement or not um we can certainly have a contract ready for execution before town meeting so it can go to our attorneys of course and and just to understand because of the procurement um statute any contract that's in what the community feels as final form obviously subject to Town Council review um would also then go to the Department of energy resources for their Regulatory Compliance review which is a twoe process

144give or take anybody have any other questions uh one if what this contract two week for state and us is it are you going to have to do this construction when the children are not in school great question thank you um so we would definitely need to consider the occupied versus unoccupied spaces um and it really all depends on when we execute a contract and what the lead times of the equipment that we finalize um are at the time of execution when we're able to order it's relatively fluid right now um some of the work we can certainly do when kids are in classrooms um but some of the work that's that's either disruptive and needs shutdowns of equipment or power would would naturally need to happen either on off hours or during the summer

145time summer time or could it be done during vacation time it really depends um on on the break and how long we have um can speak for for our team that we do and are certainly conscious of shutting down heating systems especially during the winter time for a few days or even a week because we're conscious of you know issues during construction happening and wanting to make sure that heating systems are operating appropriately so we would want to evaluate at that time what scope we could confidently complete um during a break but we do sometimes complete certain work during breaks so looking at negotiating contracts Etc and the fact Town meetings in June you're probably going to lose the summer construction period in the summer 25 we and it would go beyond that MH there

146is it's a price lock in yes if we lock it in in by July 1 let's say mhm uh just for picking a date mhm it and you're not able to go into construction until the following summer MH is that price lock in we would absolutely consider the construction timeline before we execute and we would make sure that our price like I said is fixed in firm at that time I'd only like to add that the entirety of our trains contracting business is in actively occupied buildings yes so these Logistics you're talking about every single project we work on large and small specifically focus on those and minimizing any sort of interruption to the Daily Business how many projects are you actively working on M massach Massachusetts in Massachusetts I couldn't even I don't even

147think I could tell you a lot this in any given year we do dozens of either TurnKey installations or projects like this with these types of contracts I believe we have 20 plus in the state of massachusett 15 20 plus around 15 to 30 ongoing either in construction and doing multiple phases or in that measurement and verification period that extends up to those 20 years and numerous more in every other state throughout in similar circumstances like with surface mold and things of that nature humidity I'm just curious as to what prompted those projects yeah I mean humidity certainly is I think a concern across the state um and and more so over these past few years um for some people it's just general deferred maintenance for some folks it's a failed boiler that really starts

148the process um for some folks it's really Rising utility bills and wanting to take an overall comprehensive approach to Energy Efficiency across our buildings it really varies the desire one I would say for clients that I support with performance Contracting many of them have pursued it for for the reasons that Morgan has said but others have been historically incrementalization how they approach upgrades to their buildings so they you typically go after the low hanging fruit where you get greatest benefit for the lowest cost and once you've sort of accomplished all of that work generally with the support of utility incentives you're left with the big Capital items that acting building operations that you really want to address and this is a comprehensive way of doing Mr chairman through your bth can you define what the

149low hanging fruit is when you say that is that the um lighting save energy compared to their cost is that the like million dollar spend on this document yes a low hanging fruit would be things like lighting upgrades right good savings for relatively low costs um building envelope work tends to be lower hanging fruit unless it's overly complicated because of structural issues um water conservation improvements those kinds of things um Motors drives uh you know variable speed drives there's a variety of different technological solutions that are heavily promoted and supported through the Mass Save program and through the utility incentive programs those tend to get done independently and on an incremental basis and so what ends up being left are the big expensive capital projects so on this page seven of this presentation on the

150table items 2 3 4 and 5 would that be considered low hanging fruit you know the BMS upgrade and envelope Improvement duck sealing air purification I think some cases building envelope improvements could certainly be be considered low hanging fruit considered just good Energy savings measur a lot of projects have taken on that assess the situation and then have decided to go forward with no it's typically it really I see it done usually from a comprehensive approach addressing both um the heavier Capital cell projects like Beth is talking about replacing HVAC equipment and controls paired with the low hanging fruit so that you're really combining the benefits of operational improvements and Energy Efficiency and that's why say low hanging fruit and then they get to the big Capital stuff afterwards so an example for a low

151hanging fruit would be florescent lights let yeah let's let because I think they're yeah yeah so so let me clarify that when you you asked why would an entity look to do this kind of project and it's typically because they have already done a lot of lwh hanging fruit in advance generally because of a push from the utilities through the utility prescriptive incentive programs and now they're stuck with the big major issues they need to address so they bring in an entity like a train or others like train um to do a deep dive an investment grade audit that looks not only at any remaining lower hanging fruit but all the big Capital items that can all be comprehensively leveraged together against one another to achieve a project that provides optimal energy efficient infrastructure upgrade

152and operational performance and so you're looking at balancing all those objectives as opposed to individual one-offs that quite frankly isn't a super efficient utilization of your Human Resources because you you're you're assigning staff to oversee specific implementation projects whereas here you're leveraging the resources of your staff and of a a a project manager from in this case train okay to be able to implement multiple projects across multiple buildings potentially to achieve the level of savings you're looking for okay thank you uh Morgan in the train team I believe you have a list of I don't want to say A List of Demands that came and we pred Sor yes I watch too much homk kids shows um for everybody for information and patri I believe you have a copy of the IG that you can

153share with it can be shared I mean it's a 400 page document there is we we talked about this in depth about when and how to share it it's it's available for those who want it we just didn't want it to be misinterpreted I mean it's engineering analysis it's it's robust it's difficult to understand and by just putting it out there and letting people interpret it on their own was a dangerous game but it it's available and then if that presents more question and more opportunity to talk about it I know train team Beth myself uh we're all willing to so okay so I would I would suggest if anybody is interested in reading the investment grade audit to reach out to Patrick directly versus having him send out multiple emails for printing off 400

154page copies yes um we don't have the funds for up have just just to review my um demand list I'm ready I'm ready um I have um existing maintenance versus future maintenance budgeted um extended warranties looking out what it would look like on equipment for extra 5 to 10 years um looking into a select agreement so what would that look like to do really full maintenance all in included for the whole building all contracted scope um what are the top including a warranty you just essenti say warant sorry sorry that select so we're going to go to that select thing right but then you then you just now you're just saying it's a maintenance thing and I thought the select thing was a full-blown maintenance warranty it is technically called a maintenance agreement but it

155is essentially a warranty if anything breaks the cost covered within that contract make sure it says that I will make sure it says that for that what the cost is for that puppy and then we want to know the top 15 component components and the cost asso that's my ly those those four things I think there was a mention about comparisons of other communities or excuse me I think that was mentioned at some point oh looking at his other yeah historical looking I think what he's talking about is gathering information from other projects that have taken place and what sort of um costs are for the maintenance right Patrick that's right so yes I think that was part of my compar existing existing mainten and what that would be normally versus future with added new

156equipment using data points from projects that you've already done with corre and uh to to touch on Mr balor's point that we would want something that's done in the Commonwealth in our seen climate right not somewhere down south in South Carolina this is what it is it didn't cost anything seen and I don't want to speak for train but when they mention the communities they're working with those aren't the number of buildings those are the cities and towns in the multiple buildings they have so there's it's it it's compounded to the extent of different buildings School Town you know pieces of equipment it's not 30 buildings no one of our communities that we work with has 40 plus buildings and if we uh whether it's Morgan or bit if there's a standard boiler plate for

157the contract we're going to be asked to look at if you could send that to us and we could start to knock out the boiler plate stuff with our Council that would be good I believe Beth has a template she likes to use for the emsa I will leave that to her okay has has the guaranteed Energy savings uh not ever been met we have never missed a guarantee in the state of Massachusetts okay we actually on average thank you for asking exceed our guarantee by about 133% okay thank so and really that that's flowing 100 % into your pockets it's not a PPA style where it's shared it goes all to you what you make your guarantee 3,000 is is that the what he's talking about is that the few thousand bucks yes and

158we'll get you the exact numbers that's in the I accept a motion to adj so move second all those in favor all [Music] hey