St. Helens School Board Work Session 11/24/2025

001[clears throat] Wait till I will call this work session into order. >> What's the password? [laughter] >> Okay. It's Joe. >> Can you and >> we thought maybe you were like off celebrating Thanksgiving. >> Let's start with the pledge of >> allegiance, please. >> To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. No worries. >> And then we'll move on to roll call. We'll start with student representative Howard >> here. >> Director Walker >> here. >> Director Russell >> here. >> Director Kellins >> here. >> Vice Chair Smith Reed. >> And Cher is here as well. Uh item three, OSBA consultation with Kristen Miles. The agenda. >> No, there's no agenda approved on this one. Oh,

002>> just a work session. >> I don't see it. Is >> there agenda we got to approve? >> I thought it was only on regular board meetings. >> Hey Kristen. Hi. >> Hey. She can tell us. >> Hi everybody. >> Hi. >> We have a question. >> Yeah. >> When we are having a work session, do we have to approve our agenda? >> Generally, you don't vote during a work session. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I knew there was some freaky answer. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And OSBA consultation with Kristen Miles 3.1 boards superintendent operating agreement. >> Okay. Um I'm going to share my screen. Hopefully I have ability to do that. Looks like I do. One second. Let me Hey, hopefully you are seeing the right thing >> and

003excellent. Okay, so yes, so we're looking at your board operating agreement and your communication protocols. We will go ahead and start with your board operating agreement. I know that we are um my understanding is that we are looking at the one that you adopted and also looking at one that has been proposed. So, um, what I'd like to do is just sort of go through and ask some questions for the board to discuss and look at and, um, look at what has been, uh, how you're using it, if you want to make any modifications to it, and where you want to go from here. Of course, we won't make any decisions because again, like I just said, the board doesn't typically vote during a work session, but coming to consensus about what you want to

004do going forward and then you can make any final modifications to it if you want to at a future meeting. Um, so let's see. >> I have a question. Yeah, >> I had just been looking into some some research about this and I'm just curious as why we need an operating agreement and communications protocol when um OSBA wrote policies for bank guidelines to that and since it just seems counterproductive to have you like then making more rules on top of what are the the policies that you guys wrote. So um I appreciate the question. So often what the board operating agreement offers is um first of all uh a distaliz I'm going to use a different word crystallization maybe of um some of the B section policies. It pulls from the Bsection policies and prioritizes

005some of the pieces of the ones that the board would like to focus on. But it also offers an opportunity for the board to add pieces to it that aren't necessarily in B section policies or other or a section policies. So it doesn't have to stop at those policies where um the board would like to come to agreement or add things that aren't in policy. It can in communication protocol, >> but it's not necessary since it's laid out in the policies. >> What's that? I'm sorry. >> But it's not necessary since it's laid out in the policies. You are not required to have either an operating agreement or a communication protocol. >> To your knowledge, are there schools that don't have them? >> There are there are districts that do not have either. >> We

006consider it a tool for collaboration and communication. We recommend them every time we do a training to every board. So anytime I do a governance training to a board and anytime my colleagues do a governance training to a board, we recommend that you have them because the more consistent and the more clear expectations are on the board and between the board and the superintendent, we I mean best practice shows that um clear consistent communication and expectations lead to better um lead to better and smoother relationships. And so anytime you can find tools that express those and that can underscore those, you're going to have better better relationships. And that what that means is that these are tools that are meant to outlast any individual board's tenure. And so if as people cycle on and off

007the board, I mean, you can certainly and it's meant to be reviewed, right? These aren't meant to be static and to never change as board members come and go, but they're also meant to establish the culture of the board. And this is, you know, in general how we operate. And these are our expectations that we hold ourselves to and that we hold our superintendent to. And this is how this is how things go in general. >> Does that help? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So as we look at these two the the proposed and the adopted document um so looking at the board operating agreement these are my questions for you and we can sit in consideration of these for a moment. So my first question in general would be are you currently adhering to the

008agreement as a board? If yes and and what I'd like you to do is sit with these for a minute and then we can we can talk about them. If yes, what are you doing well? Like let's point out some strengths. What are you doing well as a board? If not, if you don't feel like you're adhering to this, what areas need improvement? And then the second question would be, do you want to change any part of the agreement that you've adopted? And if yes, I mean if no, it stands, but if yes, would you want to use the proposed agreement for examples and or language? So we've got these two documents. So take a look at these questions and maybe sit with these for a minute. We'll take one at a time, one major

009question at a time. So the first thing that I would invite you to discuss is do you think you're currently adhering to the agreement as a board and then those two sub questions underneath? >> Do we just speak up? >> Yeah, go for it. >> Yeah, when you're ready speak up. I was just saying like nobody has to answer like this if you wanted to take a minute. >> Just letting you know I'm new. This is my second session, my first working session as a member. I don't believe that we are working in collaborative governance or in within the confines of the communication agreements just by what I've observed in the last few meetings both as a member of the community and as a board member. Um, I feel like they're really strong tenants if

010we um um the fact that everybody agreed to them before I was a board member, but they feel really like really good pillars that hold up the policies. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend any changes to those two sections. Um, I haven't actually absorbed the bottom half of the page. Um >> I think one of the concerns um myself and another member had was um we we had heard situations that were placed at a board meeting that we didn't know anything about and so we reached out to the PTO um leaders to get more information from them and then we were uh told that we weren't able to do that um due to the operating agreement. And so then we kind of took a step back and started realizing that we don't want

011to be um have the community filtered or you know funneled through the superintendent. We want them to be able to come straight to the board member with board members with any concerns. That's really where we started kind of questioning. >> Can I clarify? In my opinion, what I observed was that was made during a public comment. And Kristen, correct me if I'm wrong, during public comment, um, typically the superintendent follows back up with the folks that have shared something during public comment. It really had nothing to do with the board operating like if it was I that's what I remember it as. I don't remember it impacting the board operating agreement to talk to the BO had to do with public comment. >> Yeah, it did. And so we just didn't know anything about it

012where others seemed to know what was going on. And so we did that's our PTO members. And so two of us had reached out to just get some clarification on on their views of things. And that is something that we just didn't want in any setting to have filtered through. We just wanted to have an open communication with all of our community. >> So in general, and of course I can't speak to this individual situation, right? But in in general in public comment, again not speaking to the situation, most things that that require followup, the board is generally saying great, you know, like we will ask the superintendent to follow up on this and then provide the information to the board. And um because it's not like the board doesn't get to know or doesn't

013want to know, but in most cases the question is something administrative or something that the superintendent can get the information then and and provide it to the board. Sometimes there are maybe legal questions or or something like that. But most of the time it is some question that that is something that the superintendent will follow up on because that's usually the chain of command. Does it you know does does anything prevent somebody from contacting the board with information? No. You all have email addresses. The community I'm sure contacts you. But then it's what does the board do with that information? Again, most of the time until something works itself up through the chain of command, it's going to go back through the process. And again, I don't know anything about the situation. I don't need

014to, but you know, there's always going to be some sort of, you know, how does this work its way through the process until and unless it gets to the board, >> right? Yeah, this was definitely one that it sounds like it had gone through um the superintendent. We just hadn't heard anything about it, so we were just asking some follow-up questions so that we knew what we were going to be asking the superintendent later. We just had no idea on any of it. So, >> it's just some it's just some simple things like that where we just don't want to cut out our ability to communicate with the with a district that's really wanting some um access to us as board members um in a in a time when they are just really needing to

015build trust. And so, we just wanted to offer some understanding. We weren't trying to like overstep your bounds in any way. I think the thing that's hard is that four out of five of us are new >> and excluding you because I'm not talking about you. Um and that understanding the role of a board member is not operations and it's governance and understanding that I mean I come from a place where community members have because of my job talked to me about things that were way beyond what I as a board member can make a difference about. that I can direct them to the right place. And that has been a challenge because it's not the role that I'm used to playing. I'm used to being a sounding board, but that is not my role

016as a board member. So understanding the difference there I think is like you might be having that same struggle Michelle but I don't want to speak for you but that is something that you you know knowing when you have to draw the line like this is operation this is not my area but I'll make sure that this information gets sent to the right person you know there's there's only so much I think that we can do when we cannot make everybody happy. We absolutely cannot make everybody happy. But we can have four out of five new board members. We can have a new superintendent, a new principal. We can do all these things. But until people allow us to start making changes and seeing the changes take effect, they're just going to assume we're the

017same old board, the same old superintendent, the same old principal, the same old same old. If we don't let changes happen, they're never going to see them, you know? Sorry, that's my box today. >> On that same topic, I think the biggest issue is we have new board members, including one poor lady that just walked in, had no idea what she was getting herself noticed. Um, and we we honestly because of transparency, that's such a big topic. Um, we haven't even had a time to even sit down together and evenly get to know each other. And obviously we all came in with different ideas about um where we were, where we stood as a district. Some people knew things that other board members didn't know from before and after they became board members. Um and

018so it's been really hard because everybody, including me that's been here as long as I have, there are things that also were done before that weren't even supposed to be being done is the best way to say that. right down from communication to how things were handled. But just like she was talking about, we are all over this district. We're all over this town. I My husband jokes about me. He hates it when I go in the vegetable and fruit department at Safeway because he knows we're not getting out for another 20 more minutes because somebody will find me. >> And even today, I was at Costco today when a lady walked up to me that I have no clue who she is and she said, "Don't say that out loud. I know." But she

019said, "Aren't you Aren't you that lady from St. Helens?" And I said, "Oh, no. Yes. Why?" Okay. And then she said, "You go, girl. You got just keep going." I have no idea still. I didn't ask her name, anything. I don't know if she's she doesn't seem like she was a board member, but but that's the kind of things that we're all dealing with. And me being a flagger just in one elementary alone means I probably get at least five every single morning comments from parents if sometimes more. And most of the time it's like no big deal. And it's they love that this is going on. They love that they don't. But we don't ever have a time that we can all pass it on. She's running crazy and so is Jeff just like

020our superintendent before. Gor Michelle's running crazy trying to keep up with all of us. So, it feels like there isn't that time to ever pass on the one piece or or or also not even knowing if something we know is that important to to waste her time or her time with. So, I'm not sure where to go with this either. And it it is different than a lot of years of being on the board before for me is that we always could talk or we could send a message really quick to, you know, a superintendent and it almost always had time to do it. So, I'm not sure where to say to go from here either. It's It's been really hard for everybody to get to know each other and to be able to learn

021how to be able to just talk and not be upset. And we have a billion things that need to get done and taken care of. So, >> maybe we need a board communications policy like where if we have something that we're not sure if it needs to go to her, we send it to him. And then >> not necessarily a policy, but >> not a policy, but yeah, a procedure like agreement or something like that. Maybe not a policy, but >> because like as busy as she is, she's trying to overcome everything >> from the past and >> make all these changes moving forward and on top of everything else like Kale reports to you one way after another, right? So, so you wear a mask, we can't help it. >> And you can certainly

022put something like that as part of communication protocols, right? I mean, like that's not done. If you're finding that, you know, something is missing or there's a process that's missing. We can also look at I know you've got a number of policies that you want to look at. You know, there's a board officer's policy. I don't think that's on the list for tonight. Um that you know what is the role of the chair and there may be something in there about the role of the chair as well. Um but that you know how do you streamline if you've got an issue? I know there are things in here that are like what if there's an issue that doesn't have to do with interpersonal like what do you do? And I mean there there can always

023be modifications as you are running up against situations that you're like we don't have this addressed anywhere so what do we do? And you know as as you work your way through things because you are a new board and this is not like this is what new boards face and um you're not alone in any of this and you know the growing pains that um you're feeling are are normal. They're not easy but they're normal. And so having support through that establishing I mean that's kind of exactly what these processes and documents are for is so that you do have a structure around these kinds of things that are normal but hard and um and so adding to those or changing them to work for you as you go is really key. So the more

024you can talk like this and zero in on right but we're missing this piece or we're missing that or you know is really good. And if that means revisiting um processes a number of times until they really feel like they're supportive and helpful that's okay too. I think that like we do board leadership meetings and like I I didn't choose to be the vice chair. I don't think Reed chose to be the board chair. He did, did he? Oh, >> you both did. >> I I didn't choose the vice chair. >> Oh, he didn't want to be. >> Sorry. Um and but we do do leadership meetings and I think one of the things that it feels like is that like we're still learning. So probably the biggest thing that has come from leadership meetings

025was the getting some guidance from OSBA about the election and then we in hindsight should have typed it up and sent it out to board members just as an FYI. this is what we've learned and for our meeting, but it was literally the day before and we both worked full-time jobs and we were like, "Oh, >> uh, well, that would have been helpful so that we weren't the only ones that knew what was going on." And because then when it happened, it looked like we didn't know what we were doing because we didn't know what we were doing because we had never been through >> Well, you guys practiced >> in a like Yes. in a closed door like, "Okay, so this is what we're going to do then and then this." I mean, we

026didn't have like a dry run practice, but we were like, "Okay, so this and this and yeah, that will do that." And then it was written up in I have it I I have it. >> And even if you did have it written up, it still may not go the way that everybody else, >> right? For sure. For sure. Because like things change. Like we had it written up, we would only have the top three and you wanted to interview all of them. So, we did that. We changed that. It was just like for us as leadership to know what the heck we were doing because we'd never done it. And then that got thrown in our face and used against us like we were some collaborating behind everyone's backs kind of thing. And it

027feels like >> we can't get two steps forward as a team because we're constantly kicked back because everything's pointed out as you messed up, you did an error. No, I'm going to make errors every single day. I'm a human being. I make errors. They're not malicious errors. there. We're trying to do things and we're trying to follow every single correct procedure because things were done not correctly in the past and we're trying to learn not from what used to be done but from what policies say and what OSBA says. We we're going to make errors, you know, and it feels like we just can't it feels like we're always fighting each other and I don't it feels awful >> to even come to meetings. It feels awful. >> So, so let me ask you Christine.

028So, and and I think this is where the conversation can get really good and it and I again not easy but good. >> So, um so first of all I will say if you are interested in it um my colleague Vince Adams um offers board leadership um consulting and support. So he um he was on the Corvalis school board for 10 years and was a board chair. And so not only does he do the board chair cafes, which is a virtual meeting once a month, but he will just do consultation, right? Like and that is not charged like he offers uh board vice chair and chair just you know like coaching and support. So if you are interested in getting hooked up with him, you could just call him and he does that as just

029part of his love of the job and love of that leadership role. So I encourage you to use his support if you're interested in that. Um both of you the second thing is um so when you're saying like it's really hard to come to meetings like what is that? A do do you all or most of you or or you know who feels that way and then is there something on in the culture of the board that is getting there? like you can't control the outside necessarily, but like you can control and work on what is happening on the board. And I know that like we're working on these documents to try and you know get some processes in place, but like how can how can you all if if the if the group piece

030that where you all have to work together is contributing to some of that like that's the piece that you can all work on too. So, what is contributing to that feeling? Can you identify that piece? >> I think it's when we're finding stuff out online that we didn't know or in a board meeting that we didn't know, but because they're having leadership meetings, I we are not being fed any of the information from the meetings. Um, and also I I just I'm trying to understand the difference between like a leadership meeting and a committee if they're having like the same meetings over and over again. Is that and a committee? Like where's the difference in that? Because then then it would be helpful because they would be getting minutes and we would be able to

031to know what's being talked about instead of it just being missed on on this. we just aren't like so when we're finding out online that they spoke with OSBA and were given guidance and we didn't know that. It's not that we're trying to say you were like conspiracy like we aren't saying that. We're just saying we weren't given that information and we've continually asked for it from the board chair to the point where when we don't receive it then we're like well can we get maybe minutes? Could we have the board secretary take notes when they're meeting so that then it's shared with the rest of the board because there is like it needs to be equitable and it's just not we're not getting the information. And so when we're when we're, you know, hearing

032about it publicly for the first time and we had no clue, that's kind of where that's coming up from >> on on along with that. I'm sorry. Um, one of the things that I think everybody in this room um has watched for a year of a board being attacked and I believe that all of us hoped that as soon as we started this year that somewhat that was going to go away even if I'm the remaining board member and they want to keep going after me. I felt that brand new board back be would be backed and somewhat the same members of the community don't even care about that anymore. So, and we just had a wonderful board meeting a week ago that had the exact same thing happen. Um, and so we as as

033representatives of the school board and the school district, we don't know when we walk in a board meeting whether we're going to have somebody walk in just like the other night and be yelling at us or or flipping us off or anything else. And so that's also a hard piece for everybody that's brand new in this room is I've been dealing with it for a year, but there, you know, and and off and on through being a board member in the past, but never to the extent that we have had now for pretty much almost to the day a little over a year. So anyway, so that makes it really hard to walk in meetings all by itself. It's so everybody's already, you know, apprehensive with shoulders up before we even walk in the room.

034I'm more apprehensive when we walk out because I'm like, "Okay, what complaints are coming this week?" >> But I've only been to one official meeting. >> So, but can we go back to the question about >> I don't want to let it die. The the executive meeting of like the board chair, the vice chair, and I would like to have that address. It didn't surprise me that that happens, but um I'd like I'd like to get that dealt with and out of the way. So, what are your thoughts on that question, Kristen? So, um what I will say about committees is that any any like um any committee that is developed by the board and that make makes recommendations to the board is a public committee. I don't know how this is set up, but

035um if it is, you know, a committee that reports to the superintendent and the superintendent gets to make recommendations to the board and is the last person to change those. That is an administrative committee. Um so that would have to be like the structure of that committee would need to be a determination of you all as to how that operates. um there as far as like so and what the purpose of that is. So I don't know what the purpose of these meetings are. You may want to look at your policy about how the if it's about how the board agenda is set. You've got a board agenda policy that you could look at and see how that's set. If that's that if that's a different kind of meeting and it is named a committee,

036you may want to look at that and see like well if that's a committee, is that a public committee? Because if it is, if it's a board committee, it would need to follow public meeting law. >> So leadership consists of that's not part of the agenda making because in our policy for our agenda, it only speaks of the chair. We don't have a policy that states um a leadership policy. Um they this is just kind of new and it's the three of them um that meets continue on a continual basis. The problem is is then it it builds like kind of guidelines of where we're going, what direction the board is going to take. um like tonight the Carver model, you know, like they'll come up with a plan and and kind of the direction

037in which we're going to go, but it's also talking about governance issues with how with board members, how um discipline, you didn't talk to to the attorneys together with discipline? >> No. Oh, [laughter] okay. Not at all. >> Um to the attorneys at all. Okay. >> So, it's just not a policy that we have and it's new to us and we're not getting feedback. So, we just don't know, right? >> You're you're just leaving out a lot of and that's where Melody came in a few weeks ago saying like we feel like you guys are running the district. >> This is where it kind of comes out. Didn't hear that from you, >> Melody. If you can share your opinion because what I'm hearing is we we we hear what you're thinking. Um, and what

038I'm what I want to make clear is the only reason why we um did a board 2 by two with board leadership was because you're so new. They're so new to board leadership was the only reason why we did board leadership meeting together. It's just like a board two by two. I actually speak more to you, Melody, than I do these two because you're always around. >> So, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful. You are. You're always present. You're here at the district office. You're in my office. You're in her office. You're always talking. Okay. And so I don't feel like there's any like and there was a set schedule for board 2 by twos where we all met specifically at the same amount of time except for board chair and myself because we

039met an extra time to plan the agenda just like we did today after meeting with the chief of police and the lieutenant. We sat afterwards and started drafting the agenda for December 10th. Right. And that agenda stems from lots of different feedback from the cabinet about what compliance issues are coming up that we need to present to the board in order to get this thing signed for OD or whatever. So they we always just have like a draft of these are things that probably need to go to the board by December 10th. They're not fun meetings. They're just hey read here's what the cabinet thinks needs to go. What do you think about these things? What do you have? It's not like we're we don't talk about uh like board business at these meetings other

040than planning for the agenda. >> We just don't know that. I don't know that. And when we're in a meeting and hear that there's $40,000 put into attorney's fees, >> that's information that we would like to hear before the public hears it. >> It is that was not discussed between him and I. That language still comes from and and it's not against you. But still, it's just a sense of we're not getting feedback from you even though it's been asked for. And so we don't know. I don't know. And so it just leaves a >> right >> a communication imbalance. >> Well, Kristen, correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of times things happen in a district. Like the thing about the field trips, I didn't talk to any of the board members about the

041field trip thing. We were going through a we were just getting bombarded by field trip from PTO and it was all over social media and we were talking about equity and it's all worked out since which is great but there was she came directly to the board. It wasn't something that I'd already pre-isussed with any of you so it was probably a surprise for everybody. I don't necessarily know when a community member is going to come to the board. That's you're I mean public comment is public comment. They have the right to >> So how would you have liked us to handle that? I would have liked you could put it back to me and said, "Hey, what was that about?" Like we did with the parent and I followed up with her and had

042a great conversation. Like those kinds of things >> and then will you be getting back to Yeah. I do every two weeks the board update. >> Yeah. >> When legal is your perview, right? The board doesn't have a relationship with the attorney. >> I do. And I when I And then when we need to have the legal at executive session, then we invite him to executive session. Then he's talking to you about legal benefits. And for legal, it will depend on what your BBA says, which I think is I think is one of those ones you wanted to look at tonight. Um, your uh superintendent usually is the one that interfaces with legal sometimes. So, generally no other board member gets to call and rack up legal fees. Sometimes your BBA will say that the

043board chair can call legal. Um, >> ours actually says requests for legal advice or opinions by a board member must be approved by a board by the majority vote >> by a board vote. Yeah. >> So whether you wanted a request for a legal opinion, you would need to bring it to the board on an agenda and get the board to vote that you could make a request for a legal opinion. >> Can I back up real quick on the $40,000? I pulled that out of the budget reports that we were provided with. I don't understand why it's a big shock where I got that stuff and I don't direct legal and I don't tell them to come in here. >> But my part of this whole thing is it's tiresome being attacked, >> being

044told you're breaking this law, breaking this rule and you know it's that's not how a board I don't think should work. We should be able to talk about this stuff and not be accused of doing things all the time. >> By who? >> Huh? >> By who? >> By you. >> Okay. >> Community. >> Hold on. Hold on. No, I get to answer my question, don't I? >> You did. And so when you won't let me put things on the agenda, then I do get to come back and state the law or when I don't get to get questions answered or things returned to us in an email from what you're getting shared by the superintendent and then you just ignore them. Those are things that it's it's okay to quote law. We don't. It's

045not saying you're breaking it. It's just saying, "Hey, just this is how it works. Could you please provide this?" It's not an attack on you. >> That's not how it's being perceived. >> It's coming as an attack in my eyes. >> Okay. Well, I'm I'm sorry because it's definitely just a hey, I'm I'm looking for this and um we're not How come this wasn't on the agenda? Well, you were allowed to add anything to the agenda during a board meeting and you tried once and it got didn't get the second >> because you weren't willing to read the whole thing at the time and you didn't put it on the agenda when I asked. >> You still had the opportunity. >> But why wasn't it just placed on the agenda when I asked? >> Let's

046look at Kristen sitting here. She can help out with that. Kristen do when the board and super when the board chair and the superintendent come together to create the agenda at the top of it that policy it states that board members and community can give feedback into the agenda. Correct. It doesn't necessarily mean that every single item gets placed on the board. >> So if you're generally the agenda policy states that yes that anybody can ask for it but that the superintendent and board chair determine the agenda. It does not generally I'd have to look at yours specifically. It does not generally guarantee that any individual item will be placed on the agenda. So >> and that's why at the board meeting there's a time where you approve the agenda and then if a board

047member wants to put something on the agenda at that time they can add it there if the board agrees. So then the board could just continually say we don't want to read it at this time and then not allow it to go on the agenda. >> The other thing, the other way to amend the agenda is at the beginning of a meeting where before you adopt the agenda, somebody could make a motion to amend it and the rest of the board, a majority of the board could vote to amend it adding an additional item. >> That was much more clearer than me. That's what I meant. Yes. But so if the board if there's not a second then it doesn't get it doesn't get at it. >> Correct. >> Or if there's a second just

048for the point of bringing up discussion but it doesn't but it fails to get a majority vote then it would not get added. Right. It's the will of the board at that point. >> I go and say board chair or board or whoever. I I honestly don't even know how that works. I would like to add root beer barrel to the agenda. So then I have to go I'm sorry this is seriously so confusing the policy. It says how many days ahead? Five days ahead of time. >> Okay. And then if someone doesn't second it then no root beer barrels on the agenda. >> Correct. >> Basically. Yes. So, and I can ask every time if I want. >> You can >> before the agenda is adopted, right? Somebody could say I, you know, I

049move that we add, you know, somebody because I don't know what your agenda adoption process looks like, but you know, like, I move that we adopt the agenda as presented. That's usually what that looks like, right? Somebody could say, I move that we adopt the agenda with the amendment that, you know, we talk about root beer or whatever. And so somebody could say second and then you vote on that. But if nobody seconds that with the amendment, then that dies for lack of a second. >> So essentially the board and the superintendent are going to they have the right to just well run the district if they're not going to allow other things to be put on the agenda from other board members. I think I take exception to the running the district. No, no,

050no. >> You're just making us her and I are running the district. >> I'm asking if you're not going to allow >> She just told you. >> So, I'm asking, >> but it isn't just him, though. Is the right word. >> No, I just said all of us. >> No, no, no. I'm just talking about the agenda in general. When we're making the agenda, >> um, when they are making the agenda, what's the point in us sending it to them if they will just constantly kick it back? >> That's not the case. we're not going to constantly kick it back. If it it's not appropriate for a board meeting, we might say that it's not appropriate for the board meeting, that it's more appropriate for a board 2 by two or it's operationally. Um or,

051you know, you can bring it up and the board and add it to the agenda, but it's not that we're not we're not going to turn people down all the time. We look at we look at it through many lenses. And when we have like community members that want to bring something like the um that lady that the no she came with the playground stuff the >> the name of the wildflower >> the wildflower. She came and said I'd like to put this on the board agenda. And I said well can we know what it's about? Can you come and present to cabinet? she came and presented a cabinet so we could see like what it was because we're not going to let just anyone present at a board meeting, right? And so we just

052take it through a bunch of lenses before it goes and is presented at a board meeting. And I think that some of the topics that you wanted added were brought to legal and they recommended that that not be and even Kristen before we bring it to Kristen, what do you recommend that it not be put on the board agenda for these reasons? Right. And those should have been explained to you. And if they weren't, I'm sorry about that. But they should have been explained to you. >> Which that's where I'm talking about that piece that is missing between the board chair that we're not getting like when you had told me those were discussed and that you had thought that he had shared those that they're just not being shared. And so I think there's

053just that disconnect where then it creates tension like why isn't this being shared? And then she's thinking, "Yeah, I thought you had that information." >> So, did you send something to Reed to add or she sent it? You sent it to >> both of you. Both of you >> and then and then they rejected it and you got a response from Reed saying that it was not added. >> Then, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it was at that point. I don't know what happened with that. >> I did not >> because I thought once the agenda came out, you could see it and you had the opportunity to add it at the board meeting, >> which is basically true. >> Well, you know, I think there's just many facets that we're not going to

054be able to communicate every single thing out, but we have to try to figure out how to assume good intentions because I think that is some of the tension in this space is that it feels like there's like people are not assuming good intentions of each other at times. And I don't think there's was any bad intention of not putting something on a board agenda. I just think it wasn't communicated in the way that >> you know and now we're talking about it and realizing it should have been maybe communicated differently or um and it was brought to the board. >> It was brought to the board and they didn't put it on the agenda. >> Well, because they weren't willing to read through it at the time that we're in front of everyone. I

055mean, it was literally said, "I'm not going to read through all of this right now." Um >> which it was a lot. >> Yeah. because it needed to be reviewed before an agenda item was brought in place. But moving forward, >> well, but moving forward, in order to prevent it, we have to come up with some sort of understanding between all of us that we prevent this from happening so that we can move forward as a unit. I think that that's I mean, we don't move like a unit, we move like defendants. And you know, it feels like we're constantly on the verge of defending ourselves against each other. And a lot of that is unfortunately coming from you. And I don't think that that's like a >> because I asked for oversight. >> I

056was the one on the stand last week because of, you know, like let's be fair, you weren't for the words you used. >> But the same I used words that were no different. >> I didn't accuse anyone of anything, but it's fine. It's fine. It doesn't matter. That's the other thing like >> so I was though you're saying that and I'm very well aware I just had to go in and defend myself. So >> that was a public request at your part too which is not >> the hearing was not a public request sir like you chose to put a hearing on. >> No I did not you asked for it >> I asked for it to be public. >> Yes that's >> I did not ask for the hearing. You chose that without an

057investigation. You're >> Did you not vote in the executive session? >> I don't think you can vote. >> We didn't vote in the ex you vote after you made the decision. Yeah. >> You came out here and you voted to have a hearing >> and it is my right to have that be public. Right. >> That's right. But you chose to have that be a hearing to put me on a hearing whether it be public or in an executive session. >> That's exactly what happens when you put somebody in public hearing is what I found out. We normally discuss this stuff in executive session, >> right? But I >> But you requested a public hearing. >> Absolutely. But you were given a public hearing. >> Absolutely. And I'm just saying that when you vote for

058that, yet you're not voting for it with other things brought into executive sessions. It does. It seems very targeted. >> You requested it. That's the problem. >> I I don't understand what the problem is. You requested a public hearing >> after you voted to give me a to that you're going to make a hearing out of it, right? >> No. >> Okay. I think that was I think the disconnection here is thatology >> is is that >> you we the board voted to four to one or 3 to one or whatever to not substantiate the complaints against me but voted 4 to one to substantiate against you and moving forward instead of investigation. >> It was three to two. Okay. Sorry. >> That's okay. Um um and and instead of choosing an investigation, it was

059chosen the hearing, >> right? And then I chose >> a public hearing. Thank you, Christine. >> Yeah. So So I that wasn't what I was referring to as far as like >> Well, I would refer to it that you guys are feeling defensive. I'm feeling defensive because I didn't I followed every procedure to get those documents the rightful way and was you know you even said at the hearing you did everything right but I'm still going to substantiate it. So I'm just saying we're all >> I didn't say you did everything right. I just said >> you followed policy >> right >> and you did follow policy >> and so yeah it does definitely feel like everyone is on the having their own need to be defensed when it's just when honestly I look at

060it as just doing my job and asking for oversight whether you guys agree or not oversight is okay and I think you guys are taking it as an attack on people's personalities and it's not >> I also think it's okay to I also think that it's okay to I don't know what you just said I didn't hear you I I also think that it's okay to understand that if >> collectively this is why it's not one person as a board if collectively the board votes a certain way that's it absolutely that's the way we move and it's not like hey are you voting this way are you voting this way it's not that it's like we all see something and >> that's the point board. >> That's the whole point. Right. And and >> that

061>> excuse me. >> I don't know why I said that. I just was saying that. >> So, if I can if I can step in here. Um, good luck. >> I think um, you know, as I I'm I'm I'm listening to you, I hear a lot of um, well, I mean, I don't want to I don't want to presuppose or anything, but I feel like there's a lot of hurt um, uh, between you all. And I also hear like there's a lot of desire to to repair, which is good because you are a board, you are a team, and you do have to operate as a team. And you know what Christine said just now is is right. You know like you make a decision you have to move forward. I think there are some

062technical things that need to be done but overall like this is an adaptive issue right like this is this is bigger than what your operating agreement is what your communication protocols are. I mean, I think it's good to get those things in place and I think starting out this conversation about like let's get those things in place is great, but I think that like, you know, as your caring disinterested third party, which I think I've said to you multiple times, like the real foundational work here is like how do you get to a place where you are assuming good intent where you do all agree on what oversight means? because I don't know that there is a common definition here of what board oversight even is. >> And um and then how do you get

063to the place where you even trust each other enough that you're assuming good intent? Because I I don't know if that's necessarily there because I mean like I mean maybe at some like really human level there is because I know you all believe that you're on the board because you care about kids, right? I don't think anybody questions that. But I don't know like if there's a a ton of trust for the way that you all approach it because there's a lot of different approaches because I don't think there's a common definition of what oversight is and should be. And so and so then there's, you know, because of all of that difference, then we get to the place where like we're seeing these fractures. And so I think that like that's the place where

064the work needs to take place. I think it can absolutely be done and and then and then these these pieces of paper that are sitting next to me become fruitful, become operational, become a lot easier. some of the technical things that I think will be helpful to sort of build that kind of thing because like as I'm sort of workshopping like what are some of the symptoms here are like okay so if somebody puts in a request for an agenda item and it's not going to be on the agenda like what is the process looks like look like to tell them why and to tell them it's not going to be on and then the explanation why right like not this time because of this like we talked about it and then here's the rationale

065and either you know that's going to be on in January anyway or because it's operational in nature or something else like what is the what does it look like to close that communication loop and then the understanding that it is not two people running the district right like there's so much input from other folks like before anything gets on the agenda like there's input from administrators there's input from OD you know I I mean, like these things come down and like they have to be put on the agenda and and the assumption that like nobody's, you know, just trying to like steer the ship and and keep anybody out and and all of that and that like this does not project into the future as far as nobody ever getting anything on the agenda. like

066that that sort of assumption of good intent, but what could help, you know, smooth the no when you get a no and and so, you know, like I wonder about like I mean, you know, how much can we get done tonight about looking at these things and how much is that really going to like how much is of this technical stuff is really going to help if we look at it before you all get to a place where you feel good about sitting around the table with each other. And I I want you to get to a place where like these these things can help, but it's just to me it's like when when um I have an example of where when boards are having a hard time with each other. They sometimes really want

067to get serious about Robert's rules. And what they want is to like really implement Robert's rules in a meeting. And like what I find is that that's because like they they don't have a functional relationship. They just, you know, they just want to get through the meeting and use Robert's rules. And it's not about Robert's rules. It's about the tough relationship. And and so I want to see like I want to stop there [laughter] and ask you what you think about what I just said and see like where do you actually want to go from here? I would agree with what you just said, Kristen. Um, I do have one of the things that's helped me in the past is kind of um roles and responsibilities, having a clear understanding of what roles and responsibilities

068are. And it in coming before I even submitted my application, one of the things that I recognized was I felt like there there might actually be more freedom for a citizen versus a member of the board as far as how and what they ask for. Um, and I do believe that there are different ways I I'm just going to use the request for public records. I think that there are ways that a board member can ask for those. And if I understand it right, it's in a meeting. It has to be an issue of the board versus a member of the public. It's a public records request that has its own whole process. >> Any board member is when they're outside of the boardroom is like a member. They can they can make public records

069requests, but they need to understand just like everybody else the fees involved if >> if we're having to create a report or we're having to research something or because we charge we do charge people for policy and so they would have to pay the same fee because we wouldn't be able to give things for free because that would be a benefit to a board member. Teresa steved at something differently than a community member, but to agree as a board to direct um the superintendent and her team to provide reports that would happen at the board in the boardroom. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's in policy BBA is that you know if you've got so simple things right like you're probably going to get and ideally the the whole board gets at the same time but

070it is there is a relationship between you and your superintendent or there should be where like your superintendent gets to say hey what you just asked me for is going to take somebody off their job for half a day or like that's going to cost a lot to produce because we don't have that. And so like you would need to and this is in BBAA go back to the board and say I want to request this and then the board does get to decide by vote whether or not that's a reasonable request or whether or not like that request merits taking you know the resources required to produce that. If the board says yes, yep, that's a direction of the superintendent. If the board says no, then you can submit a public records request if

071the thing exists, right? Like if it doesn't exist, just like anybody else, you don't get to submit like a public records request for a record that doesn't exist. Now, if it's data that exists, >> pretty basic data. Yeah. Data points. >> So, Kristen, may I ask a clarifying question? I think there's a little bit of confusion around board authority versus in session and board authority out of session. >> Okay. Um I think when board's in session it's five of us as making decisions as a board and voting on it. >> But when we adjourn we become uh private citizens and we do that outside as a private citizen if we want to request things. Am I is that what I'm understanding? >> As in not as a board >> not I'm not as a board.

072The board's not in session. I don't have authority as one person. >> Right. Yeah. You have no authority and and that's in BBA as well, right? You only have authority in a legally called meeting in the boardroom as a board member unless you're appointed by the board to go have authority in a specific way. >> Yes. >> Great. Thank you. >> A single an individual board member does have the right to request records >> through email to the superintendent. So request something but again this is what we were just talking about like if that is an extraordinary request something that is yeah >> then the then the superintendent can say you need to take that to the board >> correct >> could you restate that again please? So if what you request is more than

073a very simple request, more than like and this is not well defined in BBAA, but if you read that in BBAA, if your request as a you know to the superintendent is something that would take resources or you know more than reasonable resources, the superintendent can say you'll need to make your request to the board to see if the if the a majority of the board would direct me to go produce what you're asking for and then that needs to be on an agenda at the board meeting so that the board can vote whether or not that request will be fulfilled. >> And Kristen, if it's requested by a board member and it's easily accessible that the it would be shared with the entire board, not just the one board member. >> Correct. You know,

074if I if I could say something, Kristen, I mean, the one thing that keep thinking about as each one of us has had in kind of an issue throughout it too is that maybe we even need to change the time a year that the first go on to the board because we have one meeting in July almost always. Um, most of the time we can pull off August, but sometimes that's even only one and we go to a conference. Then we have two in September, two in October, and then we go one one again. And so unless we do have extra meetings, and so now with this many brand new people, if I look back, I think maybe maybe we needed more time and we might have needed some other >> we didn't need to

075get on boarded. >> I know. >> We were like, >> there you go. Welcome. >> Hope you read every single policy. >> Yeah. And I think that's why like when we >> Absolutely. >> I because we have talked about this. I'm not going to act like we haven't, but when we signed this superintendent operating agreement, it was like after like we had had the OSBA and then the very next weekend we came and had six hours of this and made this document. And it wasn't until we left that we were like, man, how is this going to serve our community? And so it just felt like we were kind of rushed into something that we didn't really necessarily feel like we needed or wanted or we wanted more clarification on instead of just getting emails

076that were like, "Hey, you broke this rule." Um, so it just didn't it just didn't come across well. And so I think that's where too like there was just there was nothing. It was just boom, here you go. And then just >> understand it. Yeah. >> And I mean it's even though we created it, we also have to [clears throat] >> we are like absorbing >> 500 policies and trying to also follow Robert's rules and trying to keep up with OS's and full-time jobs and and learning this. I mean, I've overstepped it. It doesn't mean it's wrong. It means I've overstepped it. you know, I mean the well, and you started with this is all policy, right? So, if if it's all policy, it's not anything because they all coded policy all over that. Um,

077and that why are we having something separate if we have policy? It's to try to help >> like she had said, these things are to try to help the board to narrow to remember these are the important ones you need to remember during these times. Like that's what she was trying to say. It's like I don't want to say a cheat sheet, but it's like it's taking Yeah, it's guard rails. Well, it Yeah, sorry. I don't mean to you. It kind of um it does simplify it because if if we've got well I'm counting like five policies addressed in these first four bullet points. So you're not necessarily going to get this narrative out of reading those five policies. So having it consolidated here um like these are your top four in collaborative governance and

078these are your top three in communications. To me, this is helpful. Um, and you know, if I do have a question, I can certainly refer to BBF or CB or CBA or one of the alphabets. Um, but that's the point is that it's, you know, meant to like do you want to read all of your B section policies right now or would you like to prioritize some of them? Now, should you read all your B section policies? Eventually, yes. But, you know, what are the prioritized nuggets that we can pull out for you? You know, that that can guide you in one page, >> right? >> And then um and then do you want to set like what are your prioritized expectations of your superintendent? What are her prioritized expectations for you? And again, this

079is not meant to be static, >> right? This is meant to be something that you that you continuously, you know, look at. I mean, not every month certainly that's that's not reasonable, but um that you look at and modify as needed because there's no there's no point in doing it if you do it once, say, "Hey, we did it." And then put it away, right? So, I mean, is it, you know, is it clunky to learn how to use new processes? And you know, sure. Um, but you know, in our view and in the research, it's it's better to like try and adopt things that are going to inform your board's culture and do keep you within some sort of structure than to have nothing. And um, other than policy, which is super cumbersome and

080this thick if you printed it all out. um and to you know keep you in short form. And again you don't have to have any of it but you know we find that starting out by having some tools is um is a good way to go. >> Were you saying something? >> I was going to ask a question but I think I really kind of answer it in my own head for the benefit of everybody. you had said that it it is reviewed and looked at and updated and I I think you might have said as needed and I was thinking you know policies are typically on kind of a schedule and this is a policy it's an agreement but in order to be effective it can't be reviewed and updated at every meeting. No,

081>> like annually or >> annually. Yeah, that that's generally on the schedule is annually. If if there were policies that were updated, you would get those from us. Um and the B section policies don't typically get updated super often because there's not um like big laws that change that impact those. Those are often best practice policies. Now there are sometimes laws but they don't get updated >> as often as some of the other ones but um but you know unless something big changes annually is typically the schedule that we recommend unless something changes for you and you would like to change it sooner. >> Thank you. Mhm. >> Just put that all in my head. One of the things that I think would be good for all of you guys to know because I know

082I've I've heard it many times when people have looked at policies and they've went, "Oh my god, that one hasn't even been updated since 19. You got to be kidding me." But n in 19 the board before took people from the OSBA. We were here for three days. We went from policy one all the way through to the end of the book, wore the poor guy out that they sent us. Um sometimes it was only changing the word 'the' to and. Um or sometimes it was wiping out almost an entire policy and it had a paragraph left. But then as you all know, COVID hit. We went for almost two years of just breathe for a while and we didn't even know what they said anymore after three whole days back here. So you get

083to 23 24 and as you've all learned there's no way you're ever going to memorize every policy. I don't care what you do. You can get the basic concept of every single one of them. But then at the same time then we get referrals from them about as you see an average of sometimes five to 10 policies that there's something being changed in it. And then to keep it in your mind that now that part's changed on policy. It's almost impossible for from the superintendent on down is to ever keep track of every single policy. But maybe what to me is that is that working on coming up with something even if it is in writing just like a community member that a board can fill out and bring it to you. So when you've

084got a moment because you're running crazy yourself, you're running crazy. We Ed's running crazy. we can't keep up with um that or expect you guys to just stop because one of us board members needs to know something in five minutes, right? But um sometimes until I get the agenda, I don't even know that that's going to be the topic on this board meeting for me to know to ask that question. So I I don't I don't know what the perfect solution is. I don't know if there's a board out there that has a perfect solution for any any of this, but I still believe that our biggest thing is is that there's just things are different just like they are for me. I never have seen in 23 years anybody more than just the board

085chairman meeting with the superintendent to put the agenda together. So, that was a different thing for me all by itself, just like it's new to everybody else to do it that way, period. So, I I'm not thinking that we are really that far from being able to communicate together because I do believe that we have all learned a billion things and we've had things happen in the last six months to a year that I've never seen happen to a board. We've got a chair or a poor superintendent that got to walk into a a total disaster area. So, um, I just feel like that us as a board would be great is to actually take a day and figure out how to write these up that would work for everybody and a way to ask

086for it, a way that works legally between you and and work for her, etc. Um, sometimes it can even be something that Michelle can just find out for us real quick. That's great, too. But >> asking for what? anything like if you request for >> even an answer to a question and if we can't come up with it or it needs to be something that all the board needs to talk about is then the paperwork for putting on the agenda. I mean something that's real simple forms that all of us don't have to think we didn't do it wrong, we didn't do it right off. >> Yeah, just a couple documents for that parts of it is getting information to you getting it to her first obviously she can make that decision where it needs

087to go from that point knowing even the difference as to what should go to Reed, what should go to Karen, what should go to Michelle and so it's kind of learning for everybody not >> I mean sorry God don't sorry >> we had so many super I didn't should have never said Karen that's dabbling. Sorry. But um it just I don't know that even as me as being a board member as long as I have I never had to do anything more than send a quick text or an email. I had a question or wanted something on the agenda. So this is different for me too. >> Yeah. I mean, respectfully, Melody, that's because there was a superintendent with no backbone and to want to be buddies with everybody. And so, >> yeah, but even

088before then, there's really never been any way for a board member to to get something on agenda really easily to make sure that they know they don't do it wrong or offend somebody even by how they ask for it or request it. And then maybe even a form that comes back that says, "Hey, that's got to be an executive or yep, we can add it." You know, I don't know. I'm just trying to come up with some ideas for making it so everybody's on the same page for doing >> something clear and concise. >> Yeah. Clear and concise for everybody and also that those two can handle too and it's not overwhelming at that part or reads or anything. >> Can you create a document? >> I don't know how to open. >> You know

089how to make a Google doc? >> No, I don't. >> You're beyond this. Okay. Sorry. >> I think that like I think Kristen was hit the nail on the head when she said that all of this operational like these protocols and stuff isn't really going to work until we have the same working definition of what oversight means and and kind of like what are our roles and responsibilities because we'll see we I don't I think we're we can create like we did before we got many different protocols in front of us right now we've got tons of policies in front of us as well I feel like we need to really understand what it means to have board oversight in what it is to have the role of the superintendent and the role of the

090school board, I think that would be really helpful. Um, so before we even get to what that communication could look like, Melody, I really think that we need to understand what it is >> because we all think of it differently. >> Yeah. >> Because that's where the conflict arises, I think. >> Well, I can't create any Google Docs, just so you know. >> I know how to create Google Docs >> once we can agree. And I wonder what you all, you know, think of that. I mean, I I would like to know what you would I mean, I, you know, I think the idea of a Google doc is is great. And I, you know, um, Dr. Beris Brown just, you know, brought it back to what I was saying and I will, you know,

091just nudge you toward this again. I think, you know, I think just as people, we tend to get to solutioning and technical fixes, which that's understandable. We all do it. And I think that you know like again as your caring disinterested third party who's just listening to you and trying to you know think of you holistically is that the greater issue here is how do you think of um individually and then coming together as a whole? How do you all think of oversight in a way that then could be defined and accepted by everybody so that then when these things come up? Like you can have a meaningful board operating agreement that everybody is calibrated to and you can have communication protocols that maybe don't look like they do right now and don't necessarily look

092like the proposed one. something in between or something that's not at all like either of those right now and then you can have a way of you know I mean you have you have a policy that says how agenda is developed so you know you'd have to redo the policy but like you can have processes in place that a are the foundation is understanding about what your roles are and what the superintendent's role is and also So the you know that like the assumption that everybody is doing the that operating on the same understanding of what everybody else's role is right I mean it's sort of um it's it's the classic um oh no I lost the term it's the classic like belief in everybody's highest abilities right and um and that you all are

093all operating with with the best capacity and the best intent and that you're all on the same team, right? That like you're not coming to it as individuals, but that you're all on the same team in the end. Um, and I would I would love to see you all engage in that way first. >> Um, again, it's not my time, it's yours. But I wonder um how you then, you know, if you consider that and if you consider what's in front of you and what's on the agenda because I know that you had a number of policies you wanted to go through, too. What is the value in the rest of your time tonight? Like how do you want to spend the rest of your time? Do you want to plan something else that would

094get to sort of the heart of it? Do you want to go through some policies? Do you want to talk about operating agreement, communication protocol? Like what would be what's most valuable to you right now? I think that um what I see as board oversight is like so for instance I've had multiple things brought to me over the last few weeks of you know um where where are our librarians? How did they get laid off or rift? And I you know that was something where that's not my purview. you know, that's just definitely outside, right? Or um the school bus situation. Well, that's outside of my purview. I would love to hear what you're feeling. Um or just even there was a listening session with students and and it was brought to me and that

095again is not in my purview. And so those are the things where I'm like, hey, those are outside of my purview. And that's when I refer to the like start with the person involved and then if that's not working for you, go ahead and file it. Like that's the process. Um other than that, like what we're here to do is really a board is chosen by the community because they pay taxes and their tax dollars are what is being used and it's we're supposed to have oversight of that to make sure it's done in the most you know, efficient and way possible. And so for me, that's what oversight is and not getting into the rest of it and then just really leaving that part out of it and supporting teachers and staff being there

096for the community. But even when they're talking to us, we still have to refer to them, refer them to the proper chain of command. even though we're there for them, we don't really get to, it's really hard. A lot of people will still come to me and my response is still, thank you for coming to me and sharing this with me. That's what we're here for. Um, I cannot step in until these things are followed. That's just not how it works. And then it's a board majority. Um, and so that's kind of how I have been working. Um, yeah, that's how I see it. I don't know. Would that be accurate? [clears throat] >> I mean, are you asking me or are you asking your colleagues? >> You. Sorry, you probably can't see who I'm

097facing. I'm facing you. [laughter] [gasps] >> Um, yeah. I mean, so I like your description. I appreciate you like stepping up and you know and offering your thoughts on that. Yes, you are your community representatives. You are beholden to the the taxpayers, right? I mean, um our former executive director used to say that uh board members um are the safeguards of the community's two most important assets, their students and their money, [laughter] right? And um and you do like you have incredibly important jobs and you need to be good financial stewards and you need to be good stewards of um of the programs that that students are experiencing. And then there are lots of limitations to that, right? Like you're constrained by public meeting laws and you're constrained by the role of the board which

098is you know like as a collective and then like you have no individual authority. It's a big learning curve between like having an individual interest as you come onto the board and then having no individual authority when you get onto the board. So then defining what oversight is in stepping away from like you know the individual like I mean you still walk in with this is why I ran for the board because you know if there only needed to be one perspective of course there'd only need to be one board member but then it is about as a as a collective defining what okay so now that we're all here like what does what does each individual contribute to then a whole because only the whole gets to provide oversight of the superintendent and of

099the system. >> And so, you know, that oversight piece is that 30,000 foot level, right? Like, and these are just examples, nobody is in the weeds writing the checks, right? Nobody is in the classroom evaluating teachers. Nobody is, you know, looking at the or nobody is approving the administrative regulations that go along with policies. Nobody is sitting in Corine's office with her like, you know, doing the the daily talks with the principles like nobody that >> and as I always say, it's not that you don't get to you don't have to like nobody nobody got on the board to like do the management. you hired an incredibly competent person to do this. [gasps] And so that oversight piece is that 30,000 look like your goal, your your your minds, your brains, and your eyes are

100on those strategic priorities and on the vision and mission and that north star of your district, right? You are constantly aiming for those things. you are on the what and your superintendent is on the how. And you know like those sound like really easy things. The big bright line between them and the conflict and the tension comes when the like it's not a bright line. It comes like when you know these things get you know get bump up against each other and and so like we constantly have to navigate that. And when you're a brand new board, it's okay. Well, then what do I get to ask for? What don't I get to ask for? Like where is management and where is governance? And so, you know, I think coming up with and really spending

101some time on sure, we know all the I could show you my slide on governance and management. That's easy, right? You adopt the budget, superintendent gets to spend the budget. You adopt policy, she does ARS, right? Like you adopt curriculum, she implements it. I could show you all of that. It's super easy. But like workshopping some examples of things that really happen or like making up some scenarios of things that are likely to happen or that happen other places like those kinds of things. I think like then get to the root of like these are the things that are that are the nitty-gritty of oversight that like we may need to just be aware of and work through as we go like the well what if I have this or like I did have this

102and this this went well this didn't go well like those kinds of things and >> even like even just with the operating agreement from last time like I left with the understanding that we go through the chain of command unless there's something to do with retaliation and then we would we would go to Korea. But then I followed through with that and that was kind of hit with the head. And then and then like just recently I sent you guys an email saying, "Hey, it seems like you felt like people should be coming to you directly and not sending KL's." And I thought we had agreed that that's not what was going to happen. That you didn't want them coming to you directly in the last meeting that we had with you where well not

103the last meeting but the first meeting where you were like no we don't send them to the superintendent we send them through the process and the chain of command. And so it just felt like there was some like even just trying to follow um it just seems like there's mixed messages sometimes and trying to clarify those um can be difficult and I just it's not that I'm trying to send you know I think they have this idea that I'm behind you know that there's comments that have been made that a specific board member just keeps calling for KL complaints and that's not the case, I'm I'm literally following what I thought was decided. And so it just then when I send for clarification, I can't get clarification. But I I think it's just a lot

104of those miscommunications like do you want them coming to your office? Do you not do we are we sending them through the chain of command? Um it's just it's it's so much I think there's just so much coming from every direction. It's hard to decide like which time feels right to others. So sorry just clarification chain of command would be like a teacher principal correct or and there's policies for that right there specific policies on board communication with staff. I I think we have them here listed about, you know, and it doesn't never I don't think have I don't remember Kristen when I've ever been with you where you've said send people directly to Kale complaints or I've said that. I think what we said is follow the line of communication. So like let's say

105there's a student that's having an issue with a teacher. I've had that before in other districts when I've done listening sessions with kids. They'll like go I have a problem with so and so. I'm go have you talk to that teacher, >> right? >> No, I haven't. Well, then go talk to that teacher and get your problem resolved. And if not, then you go to your parent and or and the principal and then you have a conversation with them. And if you can't get it resolved there, then you would come to, you know, me or someone else, right? The process isn't necessarily that you go straight straight to a complaint that you're actually having a conversation at the garden level with people and resolving it at the first like the I don't want to say

106lowest level, I would say the garden level. to resolve on it there before it gets up to a district level and then a board appeal of some sort. >> One thing we have to remember though is as as a superintendent I often I'll say, "Hey, I'm the appeal process. I can't get in the weeds when you're doing an investigation. I can give you direction on these are the processes you would go to have, you know, the people you would ask the questions to or you can ask people these questions." Just like you as a board, if there's something that's gonna get to that level, you all need to be very clear with, hey, I'm sorry. You know, you're having these struggles, but you need to start with the the the the process, which is at

107the lowest level possible. >> I have a question >> and that is what I think is happening. Sorry, >> I had a question about that from like a student standpoint. When you're saying that like if you're a student's having a specific problem with a teacher, you would go to that teacher. Would it be advised for them to go to a principal just like I know students have a fear of retal retaliation or things like that where they can be nervous to talk to a teacher? >> Yeah, you can talk to the principal. The principal usually and my when I was a principal, I would always say, "Well, do you want to have a sort of conversation with the teacher?" >> And then you would, you know, and it wouldn't necessarily be me because I'm the

108supervisor of the teacher, right? It would be someone that was willing to have another another teacher or another person that's been trained on those resorted conversations so that the student doesn't feel alone talking to that teacher, right? Um, and then yes, if there's retaliation of some sort, then the principal does need to get involved to address the retaliation. But what I'm noticing in this district is that we often move straight to I'm being retaliated against or this is retaliation when there are significant definitions of what retaliation means. There's different definitions for workplace retaliation >> and there's different definitions for retaliation within like what you're in the context that you're you're speaking of. And so I think that we need to just be clear that um that we give the reasons why we feel retaliated against

109that we're talking to what that means um so that we make sure that everyone's on the same page of because it might not be retaliation it might be discomfort like you're saying or you're afraid that there's going to be retaliation right yeah fearful of that >> had a comment going >> at the same time Joseph started talking >> I just wanted to give you a chance to answer sorry >> I don't I know. Now we got to hear. >> No, it's hard to say something and Joseph went. >> No, I think just that um >> it should always start with >> the lowest that you can. >> Yeah. And I don't think I mean I I can see why a student might feel like they can't maybe always go to their teacher and then maybe

110just go to the next step up. I I if you really couldn't go to your teacher, but you know, always start >> at the lowest and um >> I Yeah, I mean that's the best bet and that's what I'm telling people. You know, I had students reach out and that's what I'll say is, hey, you got to start here. Start at your >> Yeah. >> your lowest level again. Um, I think I don't think it had to do with the teacher per se. And so I just sent her to your lowest level of like admin, which I don't know if that would be Shirley before it would be a principal. I don't know the circumstance, but we could like if if there's a question of who it goes to, you would just ask who does

111it go to if there's a next line of communication. I mean there's but I I believe that when people have conversations and they feel valued and heard and they put in like agreements on how to move forward I think it is always more successful than getting to a level where it's appeal to the superintendent or the school board because then it when it gets to that level it's you know what I'm saying it's not as resolvable. um >> usually well I feel like there was three that came at me that if they would have just talked to me personally I could have said I did go through that process it just wasn't known to them and so those are simpler ways that could have solved a lot of that you know where it's just not

112always possible >> I I also feel like we as a community feel like there's a history here of retaliation and instead of us saying we believe looking forward there are good intentions that there is not going to be retaliation. You are going to be heard and respected. People are just automatically instead of doing the right thing. They're like let's go right to a complaint. Let's go right to someone else instead of the right >> because of fear. Is that what you're saying? because of a past history. >> I do agree with that. >> And and and I feel like one of the things that uh we I don't know which OSBA conference it was, but um someone said that as board members, you are the deflectors of and the uplifterss of your superintendent >> always.

113you are to be blocking her or him, but in our case her whatever they um anyway from all of the negatives and taking it on yourself so that they may properly do their job which is being in the garden which is whatever other things happen in gardens. I >> we always need to have their back >> and and it doesn't feel like we have each other's back, let alone her back. And that's what I would like to see us get to, that we can all deflect the community and say, let's take it down to the basics and we believe that you will be heard and we believe good things are coming because because good things are clearly coming, but we're in our own damn way. I do feel like that's been said, at least on

114my part, like anytime someone has brought up the superintendent that I do believe she's listening and I do believe that the she wants to hear about retaliation and that's not happening. I do agree with you that that might be why people are going directly to KL's because they're uh supervisors and maybe there's certain uh uh what's the word? >> Referring to me it's more >> like over a specific department, right? like they may not >> correct that that's where they don't feel comfortable going and so then they're going directly to a KL because of that fear of retaliation. I do think that's what's happening. But I have continually said like I believe she wants change and that this will be heard like this. She has promised us this is time for change and you will

115be heard and I think they also are seeing that right. >> I think it's very visible but I personally don't believe there's a person here that has not backed her and said that that I know of. >> Yeah. Um, one thing I think to remember too is it is it appropriate to call classified staff? Is that the union staff? >> Classified and licensed >> and remind them that you know they are part of a union and they also should go to their union reps if they have serious management. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Even something like that though just just like this is a reminder just like I was talking about things for them to any of us to ask for information. Maybe for right now is even just having a page that that's what

116we can memorize is so we've got it that you this >> don't you [laughter] have the train of Yeah. from top to bottom. >> Don't you have something that's posted in the schools that tells them where to start if they have a problem or to report something or like start here or something. There's there's policies that um for for children or for staff >> for staff. >> There's policies and in each I think in each like um >> going into the staff lounge they have like labor management boards that talk about what you can do as well. But there are policies that um and their own grievance processes that speak explicitly to try to resolve things at everybody wants it resolved at the ground level of our kids. I mean that's and and I mean

117we have the the ARS that go along with the each complaint either you know whatever complaint that it is because there's several different kinds of complaints that people can file that gives you specific on how to do it and where you start. >> Um yeah >> are you thinking along the lines of like a decision tree you put this then this >> and that would be great too. I mean just for even for it's like telling if you've got a student sheet right >> like you have you have this you have this complaint okay so this is my like blanket response for like any situation you can plug in words for that but like this is happening okay you go I would recommend going to the lowest level go see your teacher after that you

118can go here it's like your steps but like all these different types of it has like answers to them. Is that what you're looking at? >> I have the same idea. I mean, I I'm not sure the best way to put it together. I'm also thinking it'd be nice if I just had a cards in my pocket and I could just hand it to them. Here's your card and this is what they need you to do, right? So, but I think what I've always told people was I need you to start at the bottom because you need to remember that if you work your way all the way up, I can't even be at a board member meeting. If you've been telling me about everything all the way through and you appeal it all the

119way to the board, I have to step back. I can't even vote. >> So, I always try to tell people that so they'll do it the right way, hoping they'll do it the right way. And I think that that the the one word that has come up time and time again um as far as the role of board and the superintendent is that we're the appeals court. And I think that the public might understand it better if they understand we are the appeals court. We're not we're not district court. >> Yeah. we're we're after the efforts have been made and failed or whatever before it comes here, >> right? And then it's not even and it's and in labor management, you guys are the appeal at that third level, the third level, but they still

120can go to arbitration. Like they don't have to stop. There's certain things that don't just stop at you and there things that do stop at, right? So you might right Kristen there might be some final says in some things but then there's other steps that people can take within within their own contracts. Right. >> Correct. Yeah. >> I have heard quite often that they don't feel like their person right above where they need to go will do anything. And I still say just start with them and then you can decide from there what step needs to be taken first. And so that is just what I refer back to have documentation and you don't and because also their union is going to send them through that same process and they'll start at they'll start at

121the bottom again. They do and and if you're going to even escalate past the board, they're going to want to see, >> you know, the DOJ or the Secretary of State or Department of Ed, they're all going to want to see that you >> did everything >> did every single opportunities. >> Yeah. >> I think one of the things that we're all paying a price for, and it's not like it's never happened in the whole 23 years I've been on the board, but it's helped. It happened extremely a lot in the last couple years, was that it didn't ever get past a principal in a lot of cases. Never even got taken further. So then when it became a big issue later or suddenly even a lawsuit or whatever it may be was that the

122board the superintendent a lot of people had no idea that that had occurred. >> But if you're advocating for yourself and that you're not getting >> results or feedback at that level it's your responsibility to take it to the next level. >> I mean I know so many people who did take it to the next level and who took it even farther into the department of education and all kinds of things just were ignored. So and then and then retaliation started and so >> that's and I think that is a lot of the reason why maybe it's going straight to KL complaints. Well, and another thing I want to just toss out there because um I do think that in some instances people are not necessarily privy to the outcome. >> And I feel like

123people >> feel like they're privileged to know that and they're not, especially if it's the human resources or employment matter. They're not necessarily privileged to the outcome. >> I think it's just been brushed under the rug is a common phrase, right? >> But you can't go talk about it. Yeah, >> I think some of the first ones that came through to us had a lot to do with that where >> there was a lot of stuff that wasn't made public that wasn't known. >> Yeah. >> Just because the report came out, people thought that they knew things and there >> there's a lot of pieces missing out of that. Definitely. And so I think that has definitely yeah created a lot of which as a community who has not >> been told a lot >>

124you can't raise your hand. So those are things also that the board can can communicate to the community like what things can be shared with the community, what things cannot. And so, you know, and and I find this too sitting on my board like, you know, um we found that like often families want to know like okay, you know, somebody hurt my kid. What happened to that kid, right? Like that hurt my kid like th that that information cannot be shared. Furpa, right? I mean like what happened to that employee as far as discipline that cannot be shared. Like there are lots of things that cannot be shared. Now you're not going to sit and talk about a student during a board meeting, but you can talk about like the the discipline matrix or something

125that you've got or like the kinds of things at a high level where people might be listening that can and cannot be shared with the community, right? like you can be another source of information about how information gets out or cannot get out like or cannot be shared with the community so that like so that the board doesn't look like a roadblock because you're not right. There are legal protections that folks have and in situations where it looks like or or the perception is that the board is a roadblock to information from the community like there are opportunities for you to be sitting in a place of education to the community. especially if you are talking about these things before they become emergencies and so you know and during you know situations as well but

126proactively as part of your education to the community about what your roles and responsibilities are um which I always recommend like talking out loud in a board meeting and to the community about this is our role and responsibility is a really proactive way to keep that relationship ship good as well because when the community knows what you do like that is better for for that relationship stability too. So sharing those kinds of things because yeah people want to know like what happened over here and they can't. >> So is it worthwhile then when those kind of things do arise to set expectations when it's brought up that? So if we if we know for instance uh if a complaint comes in and it rises to the level of human resources or outcomes to advise when

127it's being submitted that you know this will be heard or be discussed like in the any acknowledgement messages that we get maybe um that go out when we get a complaint. uh please be advised the you you may not be uh the board may not be able to share. So yeah information, right? But like I think you know if you are and I would get legal advice on this on the wording of this I would make sure to get legal advice on the wording of this. not an attorney, not giving legal advice, but um I think there's probably a way that you can share like if you're voting on something after executive session, if you have to come out and accept something or vote on something, like I'm sure there's a way to say that

128your attorney can help you word that like the information that was talked about in executive session or whatever decision that was made as a result of this cannot be shared with the community and is bound by legal protections. Okay? >> Right? that like that could be said. You could probably also say it out loud and maybe like give some rationale to it again like so that it's not just in writing in sort of a cold form but that like you could say you know like we voted on this we cannot share this with the community for for these reasons. I would get a script from your attorney about that. But like in whatever way that you can can say to the community, here's why we can't share things. You know, again, get that script from

129your attorney. But I think that like >> that eliminates the secret, >> right? then you don't look like you're creating roadblocks to information that maybe folks feel like they have a right to and are not aware of the law. Right. >> Right. Thank you. That's >> Yeah. >> I know you've got 15 minutes left. >> Is that right? Are you done at 7:30? >> I don't have any idea. >> No, not this early. What time are we done? Did you want us >> She said 7:30. So, she's asking if we were done at 7:30. >> I'm gonna check what what the schedule says because I don't know. >> The schedule said 7:30. >> Yeah, it says board session is from 5:30 to 7:30 is what it says. >> But I don't know. >> Yeah, I

130just saw that it started at 5:30. >> I didn't either. I didn't see anything at 7:30, so I must have missed that. I was looking at the calendar. >> I was looking at the agenda. Sorry. >> I don't even look at that. I just looked at the I just look at this. Maybe I need to start looking at the >> What does the calendar say? >> I'm totally >> on the calendar. But >> yeah, as long as it >> I would like to see me here at five. I'm just telling you that right now. [clears throat] I think that I think we all have good intentions and I think that it's not I don't think we're on the same page of what oversight means. >> I agree. I really don't think we are. >> But

131that's my opinion. >> Well, and we need to get to the same page somehow or another. We need to get to the same page. Um, >> and I know that. So, would it be helpful to have everybody state what their concept of it is right now? Go now. Go now. >> Is this an official >> or is this what we're talking about tonight? This is gonna help us a little with oversight tonight. >> Do you have that, Kirsten? >> Do I have which piece? >> The the document that we kind of put together around oversight from the policy. >> Yes, >> I [clears throat] do. This one, >> we're talking about um trying to come up with a working agreement for oversight. What does it mean to us? So I think that like oversight meaning

132like failure to see something and oversight meaning overseeing something, right? Like there's a definition difference there. We need to make sure we're clear on what our role is. Yeah, I do like the uh Kristen's comment about it being from the what did you say the 60 mile whatever the >> Yeah. um meaning not getting in the weeds of operational um >> I like the definition on the paper. In simple in simple simple terms oversight is the board looking up and out to set the course and looking down to ensure the course is being followed without micromanaging the daily work of the superintendent and staff. And it's fine to read that, but we have to also all understand what it means, right? Like not >> No, I agree. I just like the definition. That was all

133the same. >> Like in your mind, Kristen, what does oversight mean to you? That's Corey. I'm sorry. She's my name. Um, so I mean I don't think any of this is wrong, right? I mean this is about like I mean monitoring is a huge word that that I would use, right? I mean, I think what you've got up here, like a lot of these words, like in this top section, um, vision, goals, uh, policy, monitoring, like that those are like the key tenants of oversight, right? And I think also, you know, um, the, you know, the oversight of the superintendent would be there as as well. None of those have to do with management. And so I think you know putting those all into and and then governance governance is part of that as well.

134And so you wrap all of those pieces together and that's oversight. And I wouldn't go much further than that because if you start going much like deeper into that then you are starting to get like that's too that's too detailed. Like you want to be the umbrella. You don't want to be all the things underneath it. um because then you're getting into management. Um I will ask you a question just to think about not to answer right now. But you know this is this is two whole pages. Um it's a lot of stuff. All of the stuff is true. Um >> just to kind of consolidate from policies and law what oversight means. wasn't to be the working definition like this was just kind of consolidating things on one as two pager and to determine

135what oversight is the general working definition for all of us that's what that was for not to adopt this as the >> yeah okay um right I wonder like okay yeah I wondered like what you wanted this to turn into like if you need all of the statutory references. Um, and what you wanted to do with those, like if this is a document, the whole document you wanted to adopt or if this is just sort of like you wanted those statutory references so that you could talk about it, um, or what you were intending to do with that because it's, you know, it's it's long. Um, but anyway, that's my answer for the oversight question. I do really like the four components on page two, the four components of oversight. I feel like that gives

136you more clarity of um what oversight looks like. >> I agree. >> Did you hear that, Kristen? >> I did. Um there's there's one I would ask you to another one I would ask you to consider. Um, I think all of those are good. I wonder about establishing or um adding um strategic oversight. >> Yes. >> Wrapping in, you know, uh, innovation, PD, alignment of resources, risk management, all of that stuff as well. >> Maybe some actual, I guess, words to go underneath that rather than just only the title. Yeah, I mean you have to word smith it. The other things I said after strategic oversight I would include but um yeah. >> So you kind of mentioned risk management and allocation. >> Yeah. My notes to myself were innovation, professional development, alignment of resources,

137risk management. Those were the things that I that popped into my head. You know, I mean you have other things in here about vision, I think. Yeah. vision and goals. But then >> any any one of those though I think I think the issue where um things happen where there's the conflict when the rubber meets the road or whatever that's saying is when we're trying to apply this in real time, right? So when you say risk management over a site, that wouldn't mean you're going to a site unless it was authorized by the board to check out what was going on around risk management there or um evaluating or investigating how many injuries that took place in a specific site. It means that part of that oversight is >> me reporting out to the board

138>> those things, not necessarily you all getting in the ground work at the garden. That's my >> yes strategic risk management. So for example like um >> when the budget comes around like is it worth the risk to reduce the reserves another >> 2% [laughter] >> right I mean like that's a decision that's at the board level there is a recommendation made by the superintendent that has come from tons of work by the financial department. Now it is ultimately the board's decision to say is it worth the risk to reduce reserves by another two percent. >> Yeah. >> And that's part of the reason we have regular reporting from your team. >> Yeah. >> And then but that that's important though when we're adopting a budget, right, for that fiscal oversight that you're not missing

139those key elements. like if there is money set aside for facilities repair or something that that we're taking that into consideration, right? >> Um, [clears throat] one more piece and then I'll be quiet. Um, the reference to OS uh 332 uh 105 number three at the bottom of page one, the general duties of the board. I'm not sure what uh edition like what year of the 332, but in the 2023 year these are not these don't line up with the 2023 version of the OS's. [snorts] So in the 2023 version the duties of the board are listed as to cause to be used in the district state blanks registers and other forms. talks about forms uh to perform such duties as the wants of the district may from time to time demand and to participate

140in activities of school boards. So it's not these that may have been an older >> that's like a lot of that was made to be a law like it's not helpful at all. >> So that's what that's what 105 says now maybe an older version of that. Yeah, I I just it's like I said it's the >> I think where the conflict happens is when we are putting it into action, right? the oversight >> and I and I as a new superintendent coming in I feel like um there's a lot of us getting in the weeds in the garden when you know that's not the place and I don't know how to and when I try to like refer people back to policy or try to explain what oversight is that that shouldn't be on

141my shoulders um all the time Kristen for me to have to explain into a new board just because I am an exper and and not bragging about I've been in education for a long time and an experienced superintendent. So I do know how to implement policy and law and make the standard operating procedures and administrative rules and give advice or recommendations back to the board. I just feel like that's where some of the conflict happens is the interpretation of policy and then interpretation of administrative rules and that um I that's where I think the conflict happens what I'm saying and so how do we as a team have a clear understanding of what oversight means so that it's not left on my shoulders to say well the policy states and then I hear well policy

142is this this and this because the oversight is this this and this right I just want to be that's that's what I'm suggesting is that we get really we understand that just be when I refer to policy or when I refer it back to something it's not because I'm trying to challenge anything I'm just trying to keep board members out of the day-to-day operations out of the garden weeding the garden because I weed the garden with our staff and you help with the pesticide control like >> [laughter] >> from a higher level, you know, and so it's the getting into the weeds thing that I I feel like we have a >> and this happens with every new board, Kristen. I'm not saying that that I mean, this is >> No, it does. And that's

143that's absolutely true. It's it's hard to, you know, it's it's counterintuitive to get on a board and suddenly be told like, well, stand back, you know, like [laughter] you got on a board because you were interested in participating. And normally we get on things and get to participate as at an individual level. And it's very counterintuitive to get on a team and, you know, to be told like, hey, for the most part, you you get to function in a very detached way. I mean like it's not detached detach but like you know we don't get to function as the legislators that most people think that we are right and um and that and that takes a while to learn um and so you know no harm no foul but it is incumbent upon us to

144then learn that >> and um and I will say there is also research that says that our superintendent should not be providing us professional development like onboarding is one thing but It does cause tension when we are reliant and I I'm sorry I keep saying we because I'm on a board too but like when board members are relying on the superintendent to provide professional development that causes tension in that relationship. I mean imagine providing your PD to your boss, >> right? Like that that would be really hard. [laughter] Um and so um so you know when that when there is that you know that need or that ask you know for a lot of clarification or whatever or that or that dynamic just feels like it's taking place for a long time that adds to

145whatever tension may already exist advice you have then for us as a team um as a new board and um new superintendent for St. Helens. How does that what advice about the oversight do you have for us? >> So, I think that you know this document uh first and foremost is a really good starting place. I you know I've been thinking for like an hour that you know one of the things that you all need to do and I think you're you are also coming to this conclusion or you're talking about this this isn't just this isn't me this is me listening to you is that you need to you know set aside some time that is probably not tonight to you know to sit and and focus on these things that you all really

146do need to come to agreement on and then like establish that relationship so it doesn't do this and and result in these divisions that then lead to really tough conversations and lead to sort of you know everybody sort of operating away from each other. Um, I think that this document that you've got in front of you just with the core components of oversight, like stripping away the rest of it actually is really good because if I'm looking at this, I'm flipping straight to page two. >> Yeah, that's what we were saying. The core >> just the core components. Again, I would recommend adding number six, strategic oversight. But like starting with the core components, really sitting and workshopping those, you know, six things and like you've got a really good start, but then digging into

147as a team. So what do those things mean? What do they look like? What are some practical examples of these things so that you know them when you see them? So that you know like you're never going to be able to think of everything of course but like if you sat and talked about like number one what does it mean to hire and supervise the superintendent? Like okay we know what hiring is. You already did that. But what does it look like to hire and supervise the superintendent? Like I think that is a that is a conversation worth having and you do that in collaboration with your superintendent, right? Like that's not a daily thing and it's certainly not done individually by individual board members. But like what does that process look like? You know

148what what do you do? What if any of you have individual concerns? Like what do you do? But what do you do as a team and what does supervising look like? Just like what you're talking about right now. What does oversight look like? So what does supervision look like? How will Dr. Barreris Brown feel supported while you are and what how will she know what you mean by supervision, right? So that she has an expectation of the group and just the group and you know then what does like what does it mean to be the stewards of vision and goals? Like what does that mean? What does that look like? And and within that conversation, my hope for you also would be that you could get to know each other better. And and then also

149that like you're creating strong foundations that you know again the more definition and the better the expectation the clearer the expectations that you all have and the clearer the expectations that again and I'm talking when I say you all I am including your superintendent in this and I am including I'm including Michelle Hall in this too. I mean, sorry to say your first and last name, but like [laughter] I'm including every single person at the table, right? Because you're all the leadership team >> and so, you know, so that like everybody has the clear expectations, right? so that you're all functioning as a team. Like I think that's just going to improve so that you're not having like tough at the table conversations or if you do they can be resolved quickly >> and then

150I think that you go back to okay so then what do the operating agreements look like that maybe they will be more fruitful later. Um, but that that you know, listening to you tonight and sort of directing the energy toward a common definition of oversight, I think we'll get to some of the core issues too that may be driving some of the the tension. But most of all, what I want for you is like a really strong trusting collaborative relationship. And I would I would actually build I mean like have another retreat. I mean, you know, like it only needs it doesn't need to be full day, but like set aside some time to talk about this stuff. >> That would be my advice >> as your interested third party. I think one thing I

151did want to say really quick is that um looking over these I know it sounds terrible but number one through four for me almost always has been almost easy compared to number five and number five I believe has had its ups and downs and all the years I've been board you have great years and everybody's doing fantastic and then you have other times when something happens and it feels like it all went downhill overnight And I know that's the way it's been for everybody for the whole last year. One of the things for me on this is find out how to get the public to understand also though it's not like us five can walk in as individuals just because we get told something or somebody's really pushing us out there in the community or

152even a group. It's how to honestly say I can't do anything of that and they think you're supposed to and just like they think the city council is supposed to do something. I think the mayor and the police and everything else were caught in that too as far as we run schools so we're supposed to gosh fix everything and it's a hard one >> a general understanding. People need to have a better understanding. >> Yeah. Better understanding. They can't figure out how to get that out to the whole community so they can >> welcome to come to meetings >> but they've been coming and yelling and screaming and then it hasn't anything effective is the best way to say it. Melody, I'm thinking about the other day when an educator and myself did, let's say,

153some activities and protocols um with our special ed folks and the whole library is filled with people. And the reason I'm saying this is because it starts out with people doing kind of like this sort of thing. But when you take people through a protocol, like we used the fivey protocol about we define the problem and then we'd say, "Well, why is that? Well, why is that? Why is that and I was like why why is that? >> And there's a reason you do it because you start off and you're answering but when you get to the end it says if this answer to this question is not in your control like your locus of control then you have to go back to the next one and then you read it. Is that in your

154control? No. Then you go back to the next one. Is that in your control? because then we're not doing the pointing the fingers or thinking that you have um some magic >> magic wand that then it brings a collective together to solve a problem, right? And I think that sometimes >> um being being able to redirect people back to the process is helping >> resolve the problem at the ground level, right? Um, it's hard because I mean I had many people say to me um, "Well, you're the boss. You should be able to change it." Well, I can't just change something overnight because if I say that's what we're going to do, do you think everybody's follow that? >> You have to do it at the garden level and everybody be part of that process

155to be able to make those changes where people don't feel like the changes are imposed on them >> that they're part of that process change, right? which I think is great for all of us would be in that same way too. >> Yeah. Kristen, thank you so much. I appreciate you coming. >> Sorry we kept past your bedtime. >> Let me know if you need anything. I'm here to help. >> Happy Thanksgiving. >> All right. You too. >> Thank you for coming. >> All right. Bye. I think you said it Kim that during your interview maybe or something or you're like anyway whatever that's called um that >> when you're steering a ship you don't go like this change >> well even it's only gonna I mean you can turn the wheel printers >> but

156it's only going to turn slowly it's it's the rudder that makes the difference not the wheel >> um I will also say who who in Just room remember service contracts >> just older ones. >> Yeah. So you used to, you know, buy appliances or televisions, whatever, and they would send you a service contract. >> I'm just thinking employment type thing. What are you talking about? No, so right. So many people understood that if they went directly to corporate headquarters rather than follow the complaint procedure, they get a new TV just because they were trying to regulate the number of corporate complaints that they got. And instead it incentivized people take it to the top. >> Uh which is why it failed. That's why service contracts fail. >> Can't keep up with them. >> Anybody been

157offering free TVs? >> No free TVs from us. Sorry. >> Keep going. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm ready. >> I feel like we've made some headway. >> My day started at 3:00. >> We're moving on to what? Uh, I want to discuss the uh car model >> and see if anybody be interested in looking at it. It's a short book. >> Can we can we talk about the board superintendent operating agreement, please? >> Yeah. Go ahead. We discussed that, but go ahead. >> Because it was already signed, >> right? So, I don't >> Was it exactly the same as it is right now? >> The only thing that's different about it is that the policy numbers are listed as to what was referenced. That's the only thing. And I think it she had said though like

158let's get through the oversight piece first and understanding what oversight is before we um touch these but we can't because it is signed I mean it is adopted the original one is we can just move forward with that until we make a change which would be after the >> the cross. >> Yeah. But I don't think I think that the most important thing is is that we schedule time like she said not tonight to go over those oversight core components before we start editing >> just because I think any edits that we make isn't going to >> we have to just understand the rule first. I think that's why we we're done with that portion of it. We can't go over the policies if you want >> or we can go over the car model

159whichever one you I think we kind of went over policies with Does anybody feel like >> what were we going to be doing with the policies? Just reviewing them. >> It kind of had to do with all the other conversations that we were having tonight, >> right? >> We need to review. >> Maybe everybody go home and read them again and even comparing to what you we all talked about tonight. >> And if something comes in your mind that's a question, write it down. we come back together for oversight maybe. >> Okay. >> Before we get into that, I just wanted to ask a question. Do any of you guys have a contact that's like a board member of another school district that you can rely on? >> All right. Thank you. >> I do

160actually. Actually, well, >> I think actually he's on the OSBA board and I I know he's on the OSBA board. I'm not I think he's still a board member out of caucus. >> A lot of them are both. >> Okay. >> Not everybody, but most. >> All right. Thank you. I was going to um compile some compose an email and send it out to some board um leaders, some board chairs to ask what their because there's been a lot of um concern raised about us having legal look at KL complaints and uh I just wanted to see what because that's all that's that I know is that what other districts Right. I want to see what other districts just so I can say, "Oh, look. I emailed 40 board chairs and this many of them

161said that yes, their legal does look at it or this many said no, they don't." >> I can clarify why legal looks at more of our things than other districts is because in order to have the liability insurance that we have because of the liability issues we've had over the last year, we have to have things for us. So there's not more liability It's all around the liability. And so when our liability insurance folks say we're going to sign on having, you know, well, we all went through that, remember? We didn't think we were going to get liability, then we got liability and that it was very little liability, then we had to pay more money to give you more liability. And so it's just >> um and we have our insurance brown and brown

162that wants to come and share a presentation on why it is important to do just that. All right. and and that there is that I think once they do that presentation at the next work session or whenever they can um I think it'll be really empowering because then everybody in the community can hear like why why does a school board um want to um follow legal recommendations >> well you just saved me was because of the volume that we were getting but that makes sense >> and you know school districts don't get a ton of >> No No school districts run well in there. >> All right. Okay. Well, I won't send him email or [laughter] >> I just want to let you know why >> I can come up with one have the opposite.

163I spoke with a board member for Inroads Credit Union and they went through some CEO tires and fires and turmoil. They had the public screaming at them. Um, and she said that they used the Carver model to kind of help get through all that and, you know, get effective board meetings going and get, you know, it's kind of like a one voice, you know, for everybody. So, it's a short read. >> I was only I was in the meeting. That's the only reason I have it, too. >> And if you would like it a copy of it, I'll buy everybody a copy and I'll just >> Yeah, I got it from Amazon. It's like 24 books. >> I was gonna say because I mean that way we're all on the same page. We do go

164to go talk. >> I just want to talk about so you know. You hold it up just so I can write that. Oh. Oh, hey. You don't have to. >> You were going to ask you guys want to do a book stud, >> right? We weren't we Okay, this was one of those things and like literally I wrote down on my book tonight. What did we learn? And the very first thing I wrote down was a general email to the entire board after a leadership meeting. Okay, that is something that I hear you and your frustration and I understand it and some confusion could have been easily cleared up had we done that in the first place. We are literally just new trying to do the right thing and we don't always know what that

165is. But these kinds of conversations do help. Okay. But this was something that was in one of those leadership meetings was this gal came and talked to us about all the ups and downs of our board. >> Have you read it? And >> this is like 25 pages. >> I haven't read it. >> I I didn't want to read something if we as a board did not decide because I don't >> why don't it ever hurts to read anything. Sometimes it's to find out you don't want to donate. >> Right. Just like Robert, I don't want to read it, but if I have to, I will. Um, this >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> No, I was just going to say just not to um and follow up, they still use this policy today, the model

166to this day. It helped turn everything around for inroads. And I guess if you remember back five, six, seven years ago when all the hooa was going on, >> well, didn't she say it was like 10 or 15 years ago? I don't know. Anyway, it was a while ago. >> Yeah. Oh, so say right in the middle of COVID. No wonder we didn't know about before that. >> Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> Um, no, I just hijacked your um, but one of the things that she said was that essentially >> like there were they had laid off their CEO or terminated their CEO or whatever, CFO, CEO, whatever, CEO. >> And um, this is a real like clip version here. Um, and they had people from their board trying to step in and help

167and telling tellers what to do and telling you loan officers what to do and trying to do all these things and then it just when they had to hire a new person and they'd terminate the new person, that person wouldn't work out and it was just chaos. Okay. And one of the things that helped them was having guardrails. And the guard rails came in the form of this policy um model. And that all communication to their CEO went through their board chair and the board communicated with the board chair, the board chair communicated with the board and then the board chair communicated with the CEO. essentially those kinds of things. And we talked to OSBA and they said this is not a this is not what we would recommend but it is not not recommended

168but we have specifically for governance that we believe is it will work. We were just trying to figure out like what other things can we present to try and make us a more united front. And united does not mean we agree on everything. United means that we understand a way of communication that will help us to be successful in supervising our one employee in overseeing or governing this school district and and trying to find positive outcomes moving forward. And that this was just suggested you know it's not necessarily something that we need to adopt. I we would love it if everyone would give their input and have an opportunity to look into it. I literally have not looked into it at all. I wanted to have the same amount of time as you guys. >>

169Well, it doesn't mean you still can't even just take pieces from it. Doesn't mean you have to do the exact same thing. or might give us ideas on how to do >> or not to do. Depending. [clears throat] Okay. >> Part of it would be that if if this were something that um the board was interested in implementing, it would be that we would create more opportunities for um executive session for like evaluation of the superintendent where we would come together and there would be more times throughout the year where we were meeting and discussing you know the goals and where we're headed and my evaluation and giving feedback into the entire board as a team because that's what she said. we come in together in an executive session that everybody gives feedback into that

170process and it's meeting more often which I actually prefer to do a meeting more often instead of having one and one at the end because I think it's more productive when we're all on the same page throughout the year. Um so that wouldn't be no communication at all with the board. It would just be outside of the boardroom. That's what she was suggesting is that there's one line of communication between everybody and you all have to be really careful like if you are going to email after a word two by two to each other. You can't like give if it's give information and then give and then forward it on and have a conversation about it, right? Because then it becomes one of those >> it's a very rigid program. >> You said that was

171inroads, correct? Well, um, something I mean it's on the topic but may a little different is just for us to all think about is we really do only have one board meeting in December on the 10th and we all go into crazy holiday time four weeks after that. Um, so maybe if something that everybody, even from what you saw tonight is things that you would want us to definitely do, but maybe even to give everybody time even to order that book and have a chance to read it, is we make it a really fun New Year's resolution that we all start in January. It gives us a time to get done what we need to do at the next board meeting. And if we need to review these policies, you want to add that into

172the next board meeting since we didn't get to them. if there's more time or anybody has more questions, but I guarantee you that meeting is either busy or everybody can't wait to get the heck out of it because they're all heading off for crazy at the end of that week, you know? So, I just suggesting because I know how it goes and all it takes too is a snowstorm over Christmas break and you could be talking the end of January. I mean, just it's happened many, many times. So, anyway, so I, you know, I want us to keep going. So, I don't want to come to a stop. So, >> so maybe just thinking about adding these things so that they are even at least in the next workshop in in January we go from

173here, you know, but I know that you're going to have things that you need to get done in December. >> I think that tonight has been like very positive and allowing people a chance to speak and be heard. And I think that that's really the most important thing that every human wants is just to like be have a chance to be heard. and that includes all of us. Um, one of the things that I would like to see us moving forward is not leaning on Karine as much for guidance because it's hard for her to be our employee and also telling us >> you're not allowed to look at board policy this or you're not allowed to do that. and and probably not you, but the three of us and your people other than you

174have probably all experienced that from her where she's having to tell us, which blows, you know, that your employee is having to tell you what to do. And that does make it look like, for the lack of a better term, she's running the board, you know, because she's telling them what to do. Like part of it is just that we're new and we don't want her to be doing that anymore. So like if we can become a better unit, um I don't know. I'd like to see it. >> Okay. >> I'm up for something between now and January or in January. >> I'm just was pointing that out because I know it's gonna happen. >> Book study. It just got trampled over. She mentioned a book study of some sort. What is that? >> A

175book study? >> Like a book club? >> No, I think the original reason to bring it wasn't to say that we're, you know, and you guys, you're fine. I just I I remembered that you said we could like bring it and say, "Hey, suggest that. Let's read this book and talk about it." Not that we book study >> kind of thing. Like I'm saying book study because that's what teach we do as teachers or advocates. >> Not like we want this to become our idea and then you talk about it at a work. That's why I was saying take good and bad out or maybe nothing. I mean, just >> it is one of those It is one of those programs that it's not really something you can do part way. It's very much like

176an allin. It's not something you can do halfway. It's one of those. >> Yeah. But there still might be something that we haven't even thought about that's talked about in there or even a way somebody >> resolves maybe partially like it wouldn't be us doing necessarily the >> model but maybe yeah I just know that as the model itself it's not something you can just do halfway but but yeah >> maybe I mean it might really it might be nothing and we might have just all wasted 20 bucks on a self-published >> be a good read anyway it's not that hard. I can read it. >> I can understand it. Okay. So, >> okay. >> Um, any other discussion? >> Okay. So, upcoming meetings and board meeting agenda input. Our next regular session will be

177December 10th, 2025. Um, the next work session will be January 14th, 2025. >> That should be six. >> Yeah, that should be 26. Oh, good catch. >> You're going back in time. >> Our regular >> I'd like to do that. >> January 28th, 2026 would be the next regular meeting. >> I didn't even notice cuz we're all stuck up 25 for so long. >> Been a long year. >> Just a quick note and I'll send an email to Ken to pass through Michelle so she can send it out so I don't get in trouble with talking to everybody at one time. Um, I did meet with the police chief today. Um, we came up [clears throat] with some good ideas on how to trespass people, how to um, follow the rules. I provide them with

178some case law from the city of Htoria that they were going to go review and so we found out that yes, we can trespass right then and there and >> and that the Supreme Court agrees. >> Oregon Yeah. said that there's things that we can do. So, I've passed that on to them and they both have offered to come to our December 10th >> January meeting and both the chief and the lieutenant said they'd be more than happy to be present. >> So, I have a couple of questions. >> Sure. >> Um, is there a timeline for when we would be reviewing budget, setting budget for next year? Next year, I'm guessing is next school year. They were in that policy timeline that you guys just adopted last school board. It gave you the timeline

179for the budget. There was a policy that we adopted that has line >> that explains the timeline, but we can go over it together. >> No, I'll look at it and believe it. >> It comes before you know it. >> Usually by just really where I was going with it is based on that timing. I would really love to have if you guys are open to it a board retreat. >> Sure. halfway like halfway between now and then or something. Um I feel like we made great progress here both in terms of what we're trying to accomplish but also relationship building. I when I came in I felt like we were doing the storming part of relationship building and today it felt very much like norming. So >> storming norming and >> sorry I did

180not touch that. I don't know. I just am losing my hearing, but you just said what? >> So, in relationship in relationship building, there's storming, norming, and I can't remember what the others are. And I feel like tonight was very much a norming session. >> Start storming and turning. So, >> I'd like to keep that momentum going, developing trust. >> So, we'll look at time. We'll look at that. We'll look at like the calendars and yeah, we can talk about it in December. or do we have we have a meeting? >> We're not having an executive session on that. >> Yes, we are. We are. >> Can I Oh, sorry. Go ahead. >> Well, I'm just wanting to clarify. Are we putting a date as to when you guys want to review that book? Are

181you going to do it at the next work session on January 14th? I was suggesting that, but that is >> because we don't have one in. I think that's fair. >> I think that's fair. >> Insurance guy. >> Time to either share or order or whatever. So, we all have one >> Christmas gift. [laughter] >> Did you say husband me a board book for Christmas? We are going to go around. [laughter] >> Let me tell you about the thigh master one here. >> It was our second Christmas. >> Oh. Oh, sorry. >> Okay, [laughter] >> that's surprising. >> I'm going to join the meeting, but we can carry on the conversation. >> Thank you.