5/4/26 School Board Meeting

001Mhm. >> Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to call to order the Monday, May 4th Penn Manor School District Board of Directors meeting. The Committee of the Whole meeting. The next scheduled meeting of the Penn Manor School Board will be held on Monday, May 18th, 2026 at 7:00 p.m. in the large group instruction room of the Penn Manor High School. An executive session was held prior to the Committee of the Whole meeting for the purpose of discussing personnel as detailed above. Mrs. Rose, may we have roll call, please? >> Sure. Mr. Beakes? Here. Mr. Herr? Here. Mrs. Hough? Here. Mrs. Kat? Here. Mr. Lombardo? Here. Mr. Warfel? Here. Ms. Wart? Here. This is >> [snorts] >> Here. Dr. Pullins. >> loud. Here. Nine board members present. I would love to entertain a motion to

002approve the committee of the whole minutes from our April 20th, 2026 meeting. So moved. I have a so moved Mrs. Wert and a second Mrs. Keck. Any further comment or question? That was in stereo. All those in favor? Nine affirmative votes. Board development opportunities and reports. Do we have any board reports? Mr. Beeks. >> Yes, from the CTC. Uh, they started a new program, the um building maintenance program. Uh, it's 20 new students opportunities. They have seven already filled from the uh wait list. So, they're they think they'll have it filled here in the next very short time. So, it's pretty awesome that they put it together January and it'll be ready for this coming fall year. Uh, right now out of 17 130 openings, they have almost 1690 already filled. So, um definitely need

003to do what we can to support support that growth because it's a great opportunity, a great program. So. Thank you, Mr. Beeks. Any questions for Mr. Beeks? Any [snorts] other board reports? I have a legislative report. Um, last Monday I met with Senator Martin and his staff regarding our previous conversation on school funding and specifically um discussing legislation on continuing to fund schools when there's a budget impasse like they do in other departments, specifically the Department of Health. Um, and so my um I would say as a result of that meeting, I would encourage my colleagues and those in our community to reach out to your senator, which is Scott Martin, and um depending on where you live, to reach out to your representative. They both have bills currently in circulation, one in the Senate

004and one on the House, that addresses that concern. Um my understanding is that they are not similar, but if we can get one to pass one body, maybe the other body will pass it, um and then ultimately we would need the governor to sign off, but that is where that stands. Um and then also today I was in Harrisburg for PSBA's advocacy day, and I do have some handouts that I'll pass along. I'll do my best teacher impression and pass things two ways. Um there is the state mandate uh book for those of you who are new to the board. If you haven't seen this yet, it's great bedtime reading. But uh these are all of the mandates given to us by the state legislature, um many of which are not funded, which means they

005tell us we have to do it, but the money to to do these things is not funded by the state or federal government. Um and so the top priority of today's conversation was discussing these mandates, and the fact that if you're going to continue to mandate school boards and school districts to do things, then it's probably appropriate to fund them, or at least partially fund them, or I don't know, talk to the districts and find out how it impacts them before making these decisions. Um there was also discussion around um maybe reviewing this book and finding what mandates may no longer really be applicable to public education in 2026, um because I don't know about you, but I'm going to guess in this book there's probably quite a few. So, um I will pass I

006only have two of these, so uh maybe if there's new board directors that want some bedtime reading, you can pass them amongst yourselves. Um but some of the other things that were discussed today um were obviously the continuing budget pressure uh pressures, student mental health, uh continuing to maintain faculty in schools, and along with that uh staffing shortages, uh how do we pay for school facilities now that we don't have PlanCon? Um we had a I had a lot of discussion today with one individual specifically um Representative Mentor about um prevailing wage and how that affects school districts negatively. Um and but again, that's going to take three bodies to get something to pass. Um and then again, the state budget impasse. So, um I have two of these at a glance that you can

007look at, and then there's another just kind of more in-depth thing on um the mandate. There's probably one for like every other person, so share with your neighbor if you're interested in reading. Um but all in all, it was a good a good day of meeting with our legislators, um and the capital was busy. There was a lot of activity happening today. So, If you don't want to take the the unfunded mandate book, there is an electronic copy in the report information folder, so you can you can review it that way as well. Yeah, I think so. But it does continue to grow each year. Yes. We we had some conversations about specific things that maybe we could address, so here's to hoping. Thank you, Mrs. Nasinger. Any questions about Mrs. Nasinger's day on the

008hill? Sounds like a new TV show. It could be a Bravo show, for sure. Seeing none, uh how about our opportunities? >> Sure. So, Wednesday of this week, May 6th, um is the PMEF retiree breakfast here in the LGI 8:30. Thursday, May 7th, we have our board back breakfast at Peckway Elementary at 8:15 a.m. As well on Thursday in the evening from 5:30 to 7:30 is the district art show here at the high school. Monday, May 11th are the senior athletic awards at 6:30 in the auditorium. And then at our next board meeting, as a reminder, we will be recognizing our retirees and outstanding employees and educators and we will need to be here by 6:00 p.m. for a reception with those individuals and their families. Handing it back to you. Okay. Next meeting we

009also get our wonderful graduation assignments, so do not miss it. Do not miss it. Okay. With that, let's move on to item number one, the Freedom Park development update. Dr. Gay. Yes, thank you, Dr. Forten. Uh tonight we want to uh just continue conversation about some of the ongoing projects, developments that are taking place in the district. And tonight uh Brandon Conrad, developer with Vista Block, is here to join us. Uh we want to talk about uh how this is one of the developments that is going in. Uh but Brandon is here to uh share some information, make his request and along lines that we've been having through the discussions uh with him. So, Brandon, uh introduce you. You're more than welcome to step forward here. And also with us uh Larry Laboda's here. And

010then representing uh Saxton Stump, Dave Jones is here as well uh from our solicitor. So, Brandon. Yeah, thanks for uh giving me some time to explain what we're attempting to develop here and sort of what our options are as the developer and then what some options are for the school district. So, we're at this path or a fork in the road where as the developer, we can go one of two ways. One way if the school district did not want to collaborate with us is we would build single-family homes on the western side of the development like this plan. That would be 200 unrestricted single-family homes on the western side. And the school Eshleman Elementary would continue to be landlocked on its current 12 acres. This option financially from the developer's perspective, it's it's the

011same either way. So, both options from my perspective don't make the development company any more. Our financial outlook is the same with either of these options. So, this isn't like one or the other makes me more money. That's not what my concern is. Um I mean, I want both of them to make money, but um but it's not that one or the other is making us more money. Um they both entail significant financial risk on my part that I've already incurred. Um it's 210 acres. It's a ton of site work to bring sewer, water, roads, curb, electric um all throughout 210 acres. So, this plan, you know, we don't need Penn Manor School District for access. We have our access points. Um and then the the plan would be we would still have the eastern

012side under agreement and this will take 5 to 6 years to fully build out. And over the next 5 or 6 years we would obtain access to the eastern side whether through Penn Manor School District or there is a single-family home next to Eshleman Elementary that so far has um for their own personal reasons, they're not looking to sell. But over the next five to six to seven years might consider it. So, that's option one or two depending on your preference. The other option would include Penn Manor collaborating with us. Um we would provide Penn Manor uh 16 acres to 18 acres. We just got a new diagram that was 18 acres on our site. And in exchange, we would obtain access to Layman Avenue through the current Ashman Elementary School parcel. And we would

013also receive in that exchange the existing elementary school. Which would then be our responsibility to renovate or demolish as the case may be. Um obviously those 18 acres that the school district would be getting would have public water and public sewer and electric provided to the lot. They would have roads, curbs, sidewalks provided to the lot. Which would all be paid for at our expense. It would also we would be limiting the western side of this site to 55 plus. So, there would only be about 120 single family homes that would be unrestricted. If we went with this option. So, that was a lot, but big picture one way Penn Manor get like in this current way, Penn Manor gets an 18-acre lot for a new school. They get all the site work provided by

014Vista Block to the lot. Um and they get a limit of 120 unrestricted single family homes. So for future schools and students there would be far less school age children under this plan. The other plan we would have um 200 single family homes that we can do by right and the school wouldn't get any land of ours and in the future we would then be able to do another 150 single family homes on the eastern side most likely. So you'd be looking at a total of 350 unrestricted single family homes and you'd be limited to your current school parcel. So I'm here just to answer any questions anybody might have as well as um yeah, hopefully provide any input or or and kind of get a flavor of of what the board thinks. My time

015I've had this under agreement for a year and a half. I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in nonrefundable deposits and engineering fees to the point that I need to move forward one way or the other um at this stage. So if we're going to do if we're going to have a collaboration um we do need to decide in the near term. Otherwise we'll have to go the single family home route. Brendan, can you remind me I want to make sure I have the numbers correct. Um if we go with the option uh where we do the the land swap for lack of a better term, how many homes do you intend to place on the farm that is being farmed by the Kendigs? So on the 55 plus side, um they would all be

01655 plus, but it would probably it would probably end up being, well, first of all, we would require a rezone from Manor Township to do the 55 plus uh overlay district. Informally, the district has said most districts most townships love 55 plus because they get tax revenue without the impacts that unrestricted housing has. So, we think that we would are likely to get the rezone. And in that case, we would probably be able to do um about 300 housing units on that side. Thank you. >> going to be and even this design shows some apartment units. Um as I've met with potential other partners on the site, the 55 plus side, we are going to limit to single-family homes and [clears throat] townhomes. Okay. Um so, there wouldn't be apartment units, but it would be

017it would be a higher density Okay. than than just single-family homes. Okay. So, the drawing is not currently accurate, right? Cuz that shows those apartment units. >> is Yeah, that drawing is going to be re- drawn. Okay. That's fine. That happens in the process. I just want to make sure we're all working Yeah. good information. Yeah, the apartment units um just with other things going on in the township and the the potential competition and demand, we think single-family homes and townhomes are our best use of that land for 55 plus. Okay. Um we also find that apartments occasionally encounter higher opposition than single-family homes and townhomes. And since I'm kind of uh opposed to oppo- I try to avoid opposition where I can. Um it seems like the prudent direction if we go that route.

018Thank you. Yeah. Brandon, uh, you had mentioned that you would have to go to the township for rezoning of the 55 plus. Yes. My question is have you gone to either the township or to the borough to get any approvals? And why did you come to the district first? Yeah, great question. I would have loved to get approvals without the district's um, collaboration. Um, about a year and a half ago I started working with the district because it became clear when we once we got the all 210 acres under agreement, which is technically four different parcels, three different owners. Um, if we were going to develop the whole site, we needed another access point. So, Lehman Avenue or Shirts Road Lane that bisects Millersville park the Freedom Memorial Park. And we worked along those paths

019for maybe 9 months to a year. And ultimately got to a a no not at this time from the school district. So, then we That was with this plan. So, then we created a single family home plan for the western side about five months ago. And we approached the township and we said, we can do this by right. The school district at its current makeup is not willing to collaborate on Lehman Avenue access. So, I need to move. So, I want to do this western side. And they said, um, you can do this western side by right, but given some, um I don't know I I don't know um all the politics, but there's different people that get on boards at different times. And they said, "Can you give it one more chance to go

020through the school district to try to get the whole development approved and not just do the western side." And I said, "Um I can, but I you know, if it's I I can't wait forever. And so, the last four to five months we've been working through different meetings and ultimately getting to this meeting where I could get some feedback from the board as to whether we want to collaborate or not. And if the town if the board says, "You know, no, we don't want to collaborate." I I have no hard feelings. I'm not offended. Um but then we would just go back to the township and say, "Hey, I I tried to get the whole development so we could have one big plan. It's not going to work right now. We want to get the

021western side approved and do our single-family homes." And for the western side, you would only need the township. You wouldn't need the borough. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean technically there's six single-family homes that are on the borough's land on the western side. So, I think technically we still need borough approval. But, um that's not something that we envision I mean anything can hold up the process. I'm not naive about it. But, comparing like the 194 homes that we have to get approved in Manor Township with the six homes in Millersville Borough, I'm I'm confident that that won't be as big a road block. The bureau. Now, the bureau ultimately, I'm hoping, and I've met with bureau council, bureau planning commission, bureau staff. I've had multiple meetings with Millersville bureau because in a perfect world

022we expand Freedom Memorial Park to the east um on some of the land that we would acquire in the swap with the school district. So, in my dream scenario um we could go to the bureau and say we have this school this old school um that is has reached the end of its useful life. Um we would like to keep the current footprint or at least not expand the impervious space. Um but then we and in exchange if you let us build something else other than a school here on this footprint this limited footprint um we would contribute the western side a portion of the western side to the park to the bureau to expand our park put another ball field in something like that. The bureau might say, "No way, you're not developing that

023piece. We want it to just be you know, an old school." Um but that's my it's my current thought. When's the last time you spoke with Millersville bureau? I'm just curious cuz I go to those meetings. So, >> It's been a while, right? It's been I haven't gone there since the school district you know, So, like a year and a half 2 years ago something around that. Or a year ago. I would have to look. I would say between 1 and 2 years. >> Okay. I don't I'm not going to lie. >> Not within the last year. >> I'm not asking you to like swear like on your life. Just Okay. Yeah. How much of the East section is that entirely Borough? No. In fact, all of the East section is Manor Township. >> The

024entire East. Yeah. And the West, it's just those that small portion. Yeah. >> That's the Borough. Yeah. And so you'll have these situations where I have the exact same situation where a development's happening in a Township, but it's right on the Borough line. And so the Borough is seeing development out just outside of its footprint that it doesn't get any significant tax revenue from. And the Township is getting it. Um and so that always creates some amount of conflict that I'm not uh ignorant of. But there's [clears throat] no I mean I can't Like when I was working with the Borough or I was talking to the Borough, they were obviously saying well you're going to increase traffic to the Borough and you're not going to generate any tax revenue for us because there aren't

025that many single family home There aren't There isn't that much development. So in my head um one benefit of the swap is that in theory Millersville Borough, if they so chose could have a 12-acre parcel that could be developed and generate some revenue for the Borough and it could be developed however they would see fit in my opinion. Mhm. In other words, like however they think it best fits into that >> [clears throat] >> neighborhood and that intersection, we would be open to. How can you guarantee that you can get your approvals and meet our timelines so that we can stay on our schedule if we were to swap? I cannot guarantee that we would stay on our schedules because there are entities outside of my control, including this school district board. Um I always

026want to move faster and so all you all I can offer to you is that I'm more incentivized even than the school district because my personal literally my whole life is at risk if if we don't get it approved. And so we'll be spending I mean, I'll be I've been thinking about it every day for 3 years and I have another 7 years where I think about it every day. Um and hopefully with the if we did collaborate in the and the school districts together with us, that helps dramatically from a township approval perspective because the township obviously wants to assist the school district in you know, building a new school and I think that would that would help from that perspective. Can I ask a follow-up question? Um so you specified that the west

027side is like 5 to 6 years is what you're what you said. Yeah, 5 to 6 years till it's till every single home is built. Okay. And so the east side, suppose the swap went through, does that become priority? What um like what timeline I know she asked for a specific like but what timeline would you foresee would be ready? >> Yes. So, the the ideal and I think very realistic timeline would be a 2-year approval process from the date that we agree. I think it'll take 2 years to go through all land development including PennDOT, HOP, we need an NPDES permit. Um obviously we need Manheim Township, Millersville Borough preliminary and final land development approvals. So, I think a 2-year until we're shovel ready. And then once it's shovel ready everything becomes [snorts] easier

028in a lot of in a lot of senses. Like right now that land nothing can be done on it and so um So, obviously I don't have like if you think about the 210 acres to develop it, um it's going to cost you know an ungodly amount to develop the whole thing. So, we would bring we bring in a partner who will um build single family homes. We don't build single family homes. Um we don't build single family homes or townhouses. We put the deal together and then we bring in a builder um and we bring in a site contractor. The only I don't want to get too far into the weeds. From the school district's perspective if the concern is we want to make sure we have a school that we can build on

029our timeline. I think the actual site work that needs to happen for that is about 6 to 9 months of work. So, if you back in 2 years of approvals and then 6 to 9 months site work process, then the pad's ready. Now, that doesn't mean every other and it like the period at which all single-family homes are built and occupied is way longer than those 3 years, but at least the school could build their school on their timeline. How do you guarantee when you have a 55 and older 55-plus community, how do you verify? Obviously, when you're originally building, you can verify that. I guess it just has to be one individual, one adult that's 55 and older. But, down the road, 3 years after the person moves in, they decide to move out,

030who who holds them accountable that that next buyer is going to be 55 and older? So, it's a zoning ordinance that like this would be a text amendment to the zoning ordinance that would say 100% of the units must be occupied by a family that has at least one person 55 or older. And so, it's almost a zoning officer issue. But, [clears throat] I also think like if you looked at the Traditions of America type of developments, generally, the people that aren't 55-plus aren't moving into those 55-plus communities. Like it kind of there's is filtering process that happens with 55 plus communities. But it is I mean it can be enforced by zoning officer, it can be enforced I'm sure there's something on the deed that would say you know, this has to be 55

031plus. Yeah, it through the title process it would be deemed 55 plus. That has to also be disclosed in the you know, in the seller's disclosure agreement. The title company that's their job to go through and that would happen and and the real estate agencies themselves would say this is an age restricted you do not meet those requirements. So there there's three or four different processes that I I'm not going to say it's impossible but [clears throat] very very very very unlikely that that could or would happen because title company if they make that mistake they're having to reimburse for the whole cost of the home so that's you know, they're not going to want to do that so they do their due diligence and they verify those things. I've worked a lot of title

032companies in a lot of different deed restrictions way and that I could not tell you that that would ever happen. So I mean I I think I was going to say I feel like I think that's a conversation for maybe after Brandon leaves maybe that we could have a a legal conversation is that or do you have to go? I I can help with that one if if you want. Yes, please. So typically what happens is if there's a zoning requirement for 55 plus there'll be a requirement for a set of covenants and restrictions that go on record so that every single parcel is encumbered with that restriction. And then yes, the title company would pick that up but then every single person who lives in that development would have the legal right to challenge

033someone to tried to move in there that's less than 55. So, it's not just the municipality, it's a third part it's it's the individuals who move in expecting to live in a 55 plus community who would have the right to enforce that restriction that it's no one over 55 or under 55. So, I I have a question cuz I did like some research and spoke with some other legal folks who stated that there is legal precedent that like those text amendments can be challenged and that there's actually federal law that is in conflict with with Yeah, the Fair Housing the Fair Housing >> Yeah. The Fair Housing Act we can but but I'm not so worried about the zoning if they have to self-impose the restrictions, that deed that when you buy in it's like

034when you buy in an HOA community, you're buying in to be to be governed by the HOA set of rules and restrictions. >> Right. The township doesn't do that. You know, it's the third it's it's all the individuals who buy into that. >> But can't the HOA at any time vote to change their their charter? I mean, it's a it's essentially a governing body much like a school board or municipality. >> They sure could, but typically it says 80 or 95 or sometimes even 100% would have to vote to change that. And the municipality could get in and say they could put a requirement on that says you can they have to review your your covenants restrictions to make sure that they're consistent with what the zoning requirements are for that plan. I'm not saying

035it can't it won't never happen. It'll never happen that it would would come about that you couldn't they couldn't get rid of 55 plus, but for the foreseeable future, all the all the financing's going to be based on that. All the all the title searches, everything's going to be based on that. So, it would take a fairly long time to cycle through, plus people move into a 55 plus cuz they want to live in a 55 plus community. They don't want to live with and no offense to kids, right? But they don't want kids next door. That's why they moved in the community in the first place. So, I get what you're saying and there are some some paths that could get to a place where that 55 plus would go away, but in general

036you see these all over the place where there's 55 plus they put the restrictions in place, the zoning's in place, and and they're they're they're built that way, they're designed that way, and that's the folks that move into them. But that I just want to add that that there is a a separate restriction that would go on record that anyone who lives in the community could could seek to enforce that if someone tried to move in who was under 55. Now, you can't keep grandchildren from living there. Okay? So, you you you So, that is something if if if someone has you know they're in their 60s, their child dies, you know, their children die, they have grandchildren, grandchildren can move into that. It doesn't mean there won't be any children in that community. Or

037people my age are having babies and I'm in my mid-40s. >> Sure. Sure. But if 50 that 55 right, they can move in and have Yeah, but you can't restrict natural family members from living together under federal law. That's clear. Yes. So, I just I want to make sure I'm understanding. So, because I I mean I looked at Manor Township's zoning and I spoke to some zoning folks and there is no zoning in Manor Township that I can see that's age restricted. It is density based. So, the way that this is enforced is a text amendment on I'll leave that to Brandon cuz I haven't haven't explored that yet. I've spoken to that you know, I So, that's my first question and then Brandon, I have a a question specifically for you. You're developing the

038pond, correct? Is that one of the developments? Um so, I looked at that website cuz I just was curious like what does Brand What did Brandon's neighborhoods look like, right? Um it looks lovely. We get drone footage updated drone footage tomorrow. Okay. Well, it looks lovely just to but um you know, I'm concerned. I look at that and it says designed for 55 plus. The pathway down the FAQ, it has school district information and when I looked at the application, there's nothing that asks me how old I am. So, can you speak to that? Yeah, so >> And how that is different or the same from what you're proposing here? >> Yeah, so that is very I want to say very different, but it is different. Um First of all, that was zoning that we

039came into. So, it was already zoned 55 plus, but the way that their zoning ordinance was is that 80% of units must be occupied by someone that's with at least one person who's 55 plus or disabled. Okay. And 20% of the units [snorts] can be are unrestricted. Okay. So, when we do our intake of actual tenants, and and so that's that By the way, that's a 69 town home, 132 unit 132 apartment unit Okay. thing. And it's all for rent. Those ones aren't for sale. That's not This is like a different product cuz this would all be for sale. Um But when we get our intake, we are tracking internally and we must share with the zoning officer every on an annual basis the percent of units that are occupied by someone 55 plus or

040disabled and then the percent of units that aren't. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that. And it does I know I mean it it looked nice 6 months ago, but it is a lot of 6 months makes a big difference, so. >> [cough and clears throat] >> Any other questions for Brandon? No. Mr. Beeks. Yeah, I got quite a few. >> Sure. Um So, one of the concerns that was brought up um around it being an HOA, one of the things that really entices me is two access points to the potential um new uh new Ashworth Main. You have a nice really big appropriate size road for traffic. All of those All of those very big positives. Someone had mentioned that with the HOA they might be able to restrict that road for access from

041for the school district. What would be Would that be a dedicated public road? Would that be Would there be opportunity to have that have the school district have access for drop-offs or buses for all the things that's going to go on Manor Ave? Yeah. Our um I should have my engineer here cuz there's a term for the type of road it is if we went that way. Um connector road perhaps. But all it means is that if we did collaborate if the school district collaborated with >> we wouldn't None of the homes on that connector road could have driveways out on the connector road. Which would be good for traffic. Good for getting buses in and out. And our plan would certainly be to accommodate buses um on the western side and on the eastern

042side. Um I think one of the pinch points from the beginning has been Lehman Avenue at school dismissal time becomes kind of a mess um for getting out onto 999. And so I know that I've I've committed to that from the beginning that Look, not only can you get another site that would accommodate the size that you need, but you would also have a secondary access point. >> [clears throat] >> So whatever legally and from an engineering perspective needs to be done to make sure that yeah, school buses. And it wouldn't be that many school buses a day. It's like Cuz not all some of them would probably still go out on Lehman Avenue and some would go out on Duke Street. Yep. Sorry, one last question. Um what about the traffic study that needs

043to be done and any enhancements to the roads? Yeah, so um the traffic study that all needs to be done during the next 2 years. And that takes um so much time and so much money to study all these intersections and give I mean PennDOT regulates that, but then the townships and boroughs have input on which intersections get studied and then depending on whether you have certain peak peak trips per day is kind of the metric that they use. And so if you go above a certain peak um then you might have to do different improvements. That's all regulated >> [clears throat] >> in some way and we just have to comply. But would you take responsibility for all of that, the expense and the Yeah, okay. Yeah, we would have to do all that.

044Thank you. Which would be significantly more extensive than if we just improved Ashman. Like it's two very different traffic studies. To empty 500 homes down Lehman or for people to come and go and drop off their kids twice a day, 180 days a year. But wouldn't we be increasing the number of students and wouldn't that have some bearing on that? Right, but it's they're on buses. It's not people that live there going in and out. So I mean I think Larry and I I mean Phil and I have talked about this and I know we discussed it at facilities. It's it's different. >> If if you renovate Ashman as is and you're not changing capacity >> Right. you still may get requests to do a traffic analysis. Agreed. If we increase the size of Eshelman

045in any way, we're going to trigger a traffic I I'm not saying Yeah, I'm not saying we're not going to do one. Agreed. I'm just saying it's not the same process. Like it's not as ex- extensive, I would assume. It It all depends on the capacity Right. or on that site. And then when you get the entities involved, it depends on They're going to tell you what intersections we have to analyze. Right. So when we did the high school project here, we had to analyze College all the way up through Mhm. Um so it it became broader even though we were not changing capacity here. Right. So we didn't change the number of students coming to this building, but the traffic analysis required that. Right. >> When we did Hamrick on Charlestown Road, we went

046to the intersections on Iron Stone Bridge, Iron Stone Bridge all the way down, and even up to the intersection of South Center Road. Right. And that is all depending on as we sit down with the engineer. Yeah, I I'm not denying that we'll have to do a traffic study. I think that's responsible. Potentially not as extensive, obviously. That's what Right. I just Right, that's what I wanted to establish is that it's But again, we can't We can't determine Right. Yeah. So So Larry, Larry, sorry. So dealt with this in some other ways and other capacities, if because we're talking about moving Eshelman down more towards the swamp, so therefore we won't be on the same >> it's not a same foundation. From the same foundation, lots of times, once you if you don't build on

047top of the exact same foundation, whole new restrictions and regulations go into play. So, would we also would that also more likely trigger a significant traffic study since things have changed since 1968? And we would be responsible for demolition versus if we were to partner, then the demolition falls on you. But if we partner, that's on this gentleman. >> It depends on what that traffic study count goes into. This traffic study or our traffic study Let me show him I have to do this. how how the timelines match and how they come together when development is done and planning. If they were all those have to come together if you want him to be responsible for all that because it was all going in that study at the time. If you do things at different

048times then the traffic studies take in different counts. Okay. Right. Okay, that's fair. Any other questions for Brandon? So, just to clarify we we say no to the land swap. We're getting 200 to 200 and plus single family non-age restricted homes. Plus. Plus the ultimate >> Plus whatever 100 another 140 non-restrict non-age restricted single family homes when you get access or figure out how to loop it or do whatever. Yeah. Um versus 140 single family homes that from our perspective brings kids. Mhm. Right? Um You're you're going to provide the access, you're going to provide the utilities, the curbs right up to the curb site. Um and then we will have a second access point. So, should Layman Avenue be shut down for an emergency or something, we have second access point for buses, for

049cars, for whatever needs are available instead of either holding the kids at Ashworth until Layman becomes open or we figure out some other way to get because there will be no access from your neighborhood to the school district. Right. >> Correct. Yeah. So Millersville has the And one one last question is we still have no idea what you would put on the Eshleman current Eshleman property. Like if Millersville Borough says build us as many apartments as you can, you're going to say awesome, let's do it. No, I think um >> I mean like I I mean I'm exaggerating, but I think it's more likely that Millersville Borough doesn't really allow much there based on my initial discussions, but um Aren't they going to want revenue? Yeah, but then you're going to have people along 999

050that will come out and say you know, I it was one thing I bought this house when it was a school and I I would like it to stay a school. That's how it's owned. I don't think we should rezone it. We have enough traffic. We have enough development. I don't want to see any development on that site. And I don't know the Borough Council members um They don't care. >> They might say >> [laughter] >> They might say yeah, but um just nume- numerically um I would say 72 apartment units would be the maximum that would go there. And it would be um it would be very I don't even want um It would be very high-end apartments. It's like 2,000 a month type of apartment units. Those are the only type of apartments

051that make sense anymore. So. Okay. And I I'll just finish up again. You were here or you presented to our facilities committee a year and a half ago and uh as a board we said we weren't interested. Um you have indicated today that plan one, plan two, A B didn't matter to you. Sounds like you've invested a great deal of money into this project where you could have started on the side where you're able to do the homes. You talked to township members. They know that the board members have changed and they said try again. And I don't understand if you don't care which way you go, I'm not certain I understand as to why you just wouldn't have started with your other project and you don't have to answer. I'm putting you on the

052spot. I It's not putting me on the spot. It's puzzling to me that you waited a year and a half, you have come back before the board. You said you don't care which way you go and we're sitting here after I think three months you came to the facilities three months ago or so Mhm. and we're still discussing this. So, if you want to answer, great. If you don't, that's great, too. I'm happy to answer. Um the wheels of municipal government grind very slowly. And so, I don't think it was a full year and a half ago. I think it was about a year ago. Um and it wasn't a firm no. It was we were in the gray area for several months and Okay, I was probably annoying some of the staff members like

053hey, every month that goes by, you know, I'm I'm writing another check and not getting it's pushing back the point that we get something approved. Now, the last four to five months you can say are on me because we did develop on a western side and we went to the township and I was fully prepared to just submit that. But I've learned, I mean I do this full-time for the last 5 years. And the one thing I've learned is when a township that has the authority to grant or reject your project, when they recommend that you do something, you do it. And um so that's what I did. Obviously, and again I probably annoyed staff. But I said, "Hey, we have like 1 or 2 months at the most. I need to get an answer."

054And it just doesn't It's not their It's not the staff's fault. It just doesn't work like that in in municipal government. It's like, "Well, we got to have another meeting." And then you set up another meeting, and that goes okay, and then you set up another meeting. And then by the time you get to the board, it's 4 months go by. Sure. So As a board and in in front of the audience that is here, when do you need a decision? Because we have to make one. And quite frankly, we owe you a not a gray decision. We owe you a black-and-white decision, and then you can go to the to the township and to the borough. You had said earlier about a perfect world. In a perfect world, we'd be able to fund schools

055without the taxpayers, right? That would be a perfect world. We're about to vote on a budget where we're going to pull money out of their pockets for future building, and we don't even know when we can put partake in that. And to me, that's just not right. And I want to say that out loud. I want to say that publicly, and it's going to be on YouTube for a year. It's just not right that we're going to continue to do this, and we are without direction. >> Dr. Fullerton, regardless. >> interject? Cuz I feel like maybe there was I feel like to me it's unfair to you, Brandon, that there was a definitive no from the board a year ago. It was not gray. It was a definitive no in a public setting. Um and

056so, I apologize that if that wasn't brought to you. Um but I also understand that you came back because another entity asked you to. And so, um I I understand that. And but I like I want to make that Also, that statement public that there was actually a definitive no from this board. And maybe that wasn't um conveyed to other folks appropriately. But we owe you an answer. I also want to be clear that the gray area was the several months between when I started meeting with staff, came to different meetings, and then, yes, there was a point at which I got a black and white answer. I just wanted to make sure. I was like, wait a minute. There was a definitive no. Yeah. But it's also fair to say what he's offering now

057is different than what he was offering previously, correct? Not really. I mean, other than we can pick where we want to put the land. But I think we could have gotten to that point. I think we could have gotten to that point with Brandon and honesty. Brandon, you've been fabulous to work with. Like, you're I I believe that you're honest. I believe that you've come and answered any question we've ever asked, probably honest so honestly to your own detriment in some cases, if I'm being honest. Um And so, I I appreciate that about you. Um so, I I think that if the board a year ago had entertained and wanted to enter into an agreement, we would have gone back to you and said, "Hey, I know we talked about this spot. Can we have

058this spot?" And I think we would have worked it out. So, I But you did. I don't think that this is any different than what we were given a year [snorts] ago. And so, I understand why the municipality thought it would be good to come back. I understand why some people think we need to continue a conversation that we ended as a board a year ago. Um I quite frankly just feel like it's really unfair to Brandon and um and we owe him an a definitive answer and then this body needs to agree that that's the answer and we need other people to get on board with that. >> There there is a difference so too because he just developed plan B of 200 additional single family homes three or four months ago so he

059could move forward. That is a significant difference for us to be able to consider bussing redistricting size of Ashworth men with all of the development. We're going to need around 700 seats in elementary. >> ago and one of the things that we took into consideration was that if 72 apartments are built on Ashworth men, we now have the same number of homes as we do if we don't swap land. One of the things that we took 72 apartments are built on Ashworth men. We now have the same number of homes as we do if we don't swap land. One No, we're not. I mean if 72 and 140 72 and 140 is still less than 200 and 140. And the and the apartments if you look at school age children of an apartment unit, it

060pales in comparison to a single family homes. And what we would even do the Yeah, I don't think the Millersville apartment 1% chance that we're allowed to build apartments there. I don't think that should come into your decision. >> I mean from my I go to those meetings. I think that's more likely than them not wanting you to build on it because they want revenue in order to deal with the traffic that's going to come out of your neighborhoods. And I think >> But but they maybe we would I mean if that was the issue then we would just say we'll we'll do 55 plus on the Millersville. Yeah. On the Ashworth men thing. I do I do want to say a year ago we did not have access on the western side secured yet

061so we couldn't have done 200 single family homes. So now that we can, I think that township, it sort of made sense to them where they're like, "Well, the school district would much rather have 55 plus on the western side and 140 single family homes than 350 single family homes unrestricted. Which is what I've relayed to staff and and what I thought would make the most sense. Like, it was one thing when the school district was thinking, "Hey, if we don't agree to this, there's going to be no development here. We're like his key to entry." But, that's not the case anymore. It's going to be 200 single family homes with or without the school district. >> Right. So, it's just whether you want 140 unrestricted single family homes or 350. You have to wait

062for comment till the end of the meeting. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. So, Brandon, uh back to my question. When's a a drop-dead date you need a decision >> um It's April 30th, right? April 30th was the drop-dead date. I mean, I was I was certainly hoping or expecting that by the end of this meeting, there would be some sense of um You got your answer. I'm on high alert. I thought there'd be some sense of whether we're going to do it or not. I will say, um I present to boards once a week, probably. We have eight different developments. And um this board is hard to read. So, a lot of you aren't talking. I don't know what everybody else is thinking. If it's all a no, that's fine, but And he did come

063to us on March 19th. He was at the facilities meeting and asked if the information be brought forward, but it took a month for us to bring it forward. So, just a side note. >> I mean, that is the the process, unfortunately. So, if we just have this on our agenda for information only and not to be voted on or anything of that nature. Not as an official Not as an official vote, but a decision needs to be made in an informal fashion. Straw poll, are we moving forward? I did drop in the presentation this the information that we had talked about at our last meeting. What the site would look like that we would be requesting [clears throat] according to what Larry, Jim Hawker, Dan and I have worked up. I also dropped in

064a couple of aspects just kind of in summary from our perspective as as the school district leadership team. It really for me like some of the options that what we would be gaining in both options. You know, we would be increasing capacity, acreage. And then also [clears throat] we would be rebuilding. But I do think if we are going to rebuild at Echelman as I said last time, I think we need to look at a smaller scale building than than doubling the capacity if we're going to build on the existing site. Dr. Gill, I had specifically asked for this presentation to include pictures of the plan that we've already developed to build on the the current Echelman site and also for cost comparisons for building on Brandon site and on the Echelman site. Do we

065have that [clears throat] prepared for tonight cuz I don't see that in the presentation. Cuz I I think those are the things that several people have previously asked for in order to be able to give Brandon a decision. Um because we're working on a lot of what ifs and opinions. All right, do you want to At the end of the day we're looking at >> did ask Mr. Lovato to work on you know, what would the site be? What are estimated costs? Obviously we're there's still a lot to be determined. Uh if we were to build on the on the proposed swap plan and then also what we would be looking at. Do you want to walk through those, Larry? Sure. So, um if we If we swap land, we'll start there, right? And Brandon,

066uh we worked out a deal to get the 16 to 18 acres of land. Um and by the way, that is a guideline from PDE. Um for every um elementary school, you start with a 10-acre minimum is ideal. Obviously, you have other schools that are not 10 acres. Um from there, for every 100 student population, you want to add another acre. So, if you're talking about a school the size of Hambright, 700-plus kids, you want to be around that 17-acre mark. And that's just the general discussions that we've had. Um we had our engineer um with the administrators walk the site and kind of handpick kind of that lot. That was that graphic that you saw that Dr. Gale just had up of of where that school could potentially go. Again, it's not firm, it's

067just an estimate. Um when we went back um in discussions about the scale of that building, um we know uh roughly the square footage of a 700-student building would cost um which is a new elementary school. We had that cost presented back in the study days. Um we also ascertained approximately, again, this is just 10,000-ft view, study level. The approximate site cost to develop that parcel is pretty close to about $8 million to develop that. 6 to $8 million, and that's just the parcel that you own. It's not the road improvement. That means that utilities are there all the way at the front of your site. Um Brandon has provided the roadway. Typically, the utilities follow the roadway when they're installing it. So, we would be nothing different than a house, and our utilities would

068come from edge of road down into to building. Um so, those costs we have. Um Um, so, again, $6 to $8 million on the cost of that plus the elementary school cost. Um, if you look at it building a smaller building on Eshleman, so, we would move the Eshleman kids out, we would tear down old Eshleman, and we would develop that 12-acre parcel. You're going to have obviously reduced site costs. Um, but we were talking about a student capacity of about 400 to 450 kids. So, you're probably talking in the range of 70, 75,000 square feet versus 110, which would be the new elementary school. So, that cost difference right there, um, is pretty significant. How many? Like, 10 million, 5 million? >> It would be the second option that I just described would be

069about 36.1 to 36 39.7 million. Instead of 55 million? But, can we look at that at a at a per square foot or per student cost rather than since we're talking about making it bigger, it's kind of like not apples to apples. >> Well, I feel like that's why it would have been helpful >> So, elementary schools in general right now, and please don't hold me to [clears throat] this number. No. Um, we're seeing uh we just bid 13 projects this spring. We're seeing around $300 a square foot for elementary schools. Right. Um, it could be 285, it could be that plus the site cost. So, when we when I look at these numbers and I ran the numbers, [snorts] um, 107,000 square feet, um, we're talking in a 50 to 55 million dollar range

070for that elementary school, and that's with that 8 million dollar site cost and a couple of years of escalation in there, um, cuz it takes 12 months to design it, um, couple years to build it. So, just understand that those numbers are in today's dollars. Right. If you decide in 4 years to build that out, you know, the price on that would go higher to like 56, 57 million dollars. Right? Um if you look at a 400 student capacity building, um same time frame, less site cost, we're probably in the 36 to 40 million dollar range for that project. Um in today's dollars. Again, there's escalation and I uh can put on that based on when we do that. The timeline we originally had was build the new Manor Middle School, then we can move

071the kids and use the old Manor Middle as swing, so we can move those Eshelman kids out. So, you're already talking we're starting in the year 2029. Not to mean that we can't design sooner that and get land development approvals, but we're not actually constructing that school till sometime out in that time frame. That's why I talk about escalation over that period of time. And everybody in the standard industry right now is using about 2 and 1/2 to 3% escalation per year. So, I'm trying to estimate if there is a cost savings to the swap, but I feel like it's not apples to apples because we would be increasing um capacity. So, [clears throat] how do we how do we define that for the taxpayers? The So, from my perspective, from what I've heard in

072the past from our administration, with the development that is happening on the northern tier, we will need somewhere around 700 to 800 elementary student seats. That then Eshelman was going doubling Eshelman because of the development happening right around Eshelman was why we strategically we were looking at doubling the size of Eshelman. Correct. So, I think it is not apples to apples because doubling the size of Eshleman because we're going to need 700 seats to be in that area. Now, we're going to have to move those 300 seats somewhere else in the district. Redistricting, bussing, >> [clears throat] >> potential programming that are all not being added into a reduction in Eshleman. And I think those things need to be taken into account. Whereas, the new site allows us to stay on that track plan. I

073mean, in in fairness, we've spent an entire year discussing making the current Eshleman work for 700 students, and the facilities committee was on board with that. Admin was on board with that. We paid engineers and architects to look at it. They all said we could do it. Um, I'm not opposed to reducing capacity if we think that we have capacity elsewhere, which has been discussed could happen at the old manner, which would make sense be since majority of the building is happening in Manor Township. Um, but to be honest, I specifically asked to have the this data in front of us like so you could see the numbers because I think that's fair. I think that's what we all were desiring the last time we spoke about this. So, I don't like I don't know

074how you we make a decision because we don't have the we still don't have the facts. We don't have the comparisons So, the feasibility study that we provided to you 2 years ago had all those numbers in it with the exception of a reduced Eshleman of 400 students. Agreed. I know, but this is not your fault. >> I'm I'm just saying. So, in terms of this, what we're providing today is something that came out of if we do a land swap. Right. Agreed. I That wasn't on the table at the study. I'm understanding that. >> at that initial spot, right, of Ashlawn itself, and said, "Hey, we don't know what that could be." >> we're receiving today is a very biased, one-sided presentation that doesn't also include all of the work that we've already done,

075and that information on a screen, on a presentation for the community and the board to view to be able to make a decision fairly for the taxpayer and for Brandon today. And that is what was we requested. And so, I think, like, I appreciate that you're giving us that data, and it's helpful, but when, we're, you know, we're not even seeing a drawing of what the other option looks like today to compare to what was put up there. And I think for people who are trying to make the right decision for our taxpayers and our students, I don't know how we make that decision today. May I uh ask if it's >> [snorts] >> We've got a couple slides in here to talk about the district impact with each option. Um How is the student

076The blue the blue ones. Or on the screen is one of them. It's the last two pages in the There's one that says existing property option, and there's one that says land swap option. Nine and 10. And I To to me, two ways in, two ways out, there's that's something we don't have today, that's clearly an improvement. A better drop-off area for parents dropping off and buses to turn around, that's clearly better. How does the new building on 18 acres or 16 acres, how does that impact programming for students and the student experience when we potentially have that site versus the site that we would have today and reworking it? Yeah, so if we were to increase the capacity, we would be looking at a model that we have at Hambright and Central Manor. Where

077it would be about four four classrooms per grade. So, we would Manor we would mirror the the student experience to those two buildings. If we stayed at the existing site and increased it like we had talked about when we when we talked about increasing, can we increase that site? >> Back to the feasibility study. Yeah, when we when we had talked about that, the building will be different. It would be two stories. The wings would be either s- lengthened or shortened. Um, you know, depending on the amount of area around the building would depend on some of the programming. If we stayed smaller at Eshleman, but rebuilt the existing building that we absolutely have to do because of its current conditions, would mirror what was happening at Eshleman currently, Hackbarth, Conestoga, Martic, where we have

078our two per grade level. So, to the layman, the potential impact on students and programming, the experience that could potentially be be worse is if we build the bigger school on the existing site. I don't see this I don't see I mean, we we have tentative drawings, but again, we have not gone down that road to say this is what would happen. This is how deep in into it we would go. Can we build Can we build a bigger school? I mean, that much bigger on women. It would It would It would be It would be a considerably different model than what we have. >> Right. Right. If we have the If we have the expanded acreage, we would build something like we have at Hambrick with some modifications and improvements that we've learned off

079of this. Is it automatic that if we make the swap, that we will automatically make the school bigger? Why wouldn't we? I think the question would be why wouldn't we? I mean, we would have the acreage. We would have the land that would be be there for that. And it would meet the needs that we are projected to have in terms of our increased students. If we don't If we don't If we stay within the same limitations, again, it's my recommendation that we would not look at a larger elementary school on that site because of the tight location. Now, we [clears throat] we do need to rebuild Ashlawn. We absolutely have to rebuild. Whether it's you increase the capacity or you stay the same. Yeah. Yeah, the question that That's not the question as to

080whether or not we rebuild it. So, just some Again, just to try and normalize this, and this has not been run through any calculation or anything, but if you just take the numbers from what we just heard, a 700-seat school district would cost $78,000 per seat. A 400-seat building would cost close to $90,000 per seat. That That would be to try and normalize what you are asking, those differences. Um again, [clears throat] again, just real quick real quick math to try and normalize it, and we would be paying $90,000 per seat for Ashlawn where it's at. Plus whatever capacity that we're losing at Eshleman, we would then have to also add those costs in order to be able to >> [clears throat] >> fulfill the projected kids with the developments that are happening primarily in

081Manor Township. And, you know, I don't see it stopping. Mr. LaMar >> sorry. >> [clears throat] >> My question's a little different. I just want to know logistically, like there's a lot of obviously a lot of we we can't plan this out completely. If if we were to agree to a land swap, let's say, how like is that something we're signing? What At what point does the land get switched? We currently have a school there with students on it. And then we're playing the what if game like we need approvals for this and approvals for that. So, like at what point would we no longer own that land? Would he own that land while the students are still there before the middle school's built? Like these are the types of questions I have. Like legally

082speaking, I know he needs an answer, but like is it a gentleman's agreement? Are we signing something to paper? Uh like how would this all work? I think that's the same as So, we we do have a a high level I'll call it a high level agreement. It's not really down quite as much in the weeds, but the way it's drafted currently, it says that the land exchange would not take place until the permits and approvals are all in hand. >> Okay. So, that they can move forward. All right. We'd have to work out the timing logistics of when does it make sense to for us to start building? My understanding is this would be spring of '29. Probably take what 16 months, 18 months. So, you have to be in by then. So, there

083would have to be some sort of agreement in place to maintain Eshleman where it currently is until you can move the kids over so on and so forth. So, but it would be a it would be a written agreement. Again, the one that I've reviewed I think is a very I'll call it a high-level agreement. It's not very many pages. It it outlines what's going to happen and kind of when, but it's like to be decided a future date, decided a future date. So, there's some there's some timing aspects to that that would have to be worked out if the board were willing to move forward with the land swap. >> That That answers it. The The only the last question I have is like because there are so many unknowns, is there an exit

084clause in that if if something were to go trap like I and I get it you're putting your whole life into this, but let's say something goes strangely awry, which I'm not saying is going to happen, what what then? Yeah, there is an exit clause. Now, it's it's a little Again, that would have to be more developed from what I've seen, but it basically says we'd still give them an easement to go through with this and there there's some other aspects of maybe we they we buy a piece of ground from them if it doesn't go through. I There would have to be some things worked out. I think what you need is the answer on concept. Is that correct? Yeah. He He needs to know whether we should go down this path or not.

085And to your point, no is an answer. I represent a lot of municipalities, okay? I will tell you they do exactly what Manor Township may have done to Mr. Cole. Air Air Air Air Mr. Air Brandon. So, at the end of the day, they may have said, "Please go back and ask again." And that's that's fine because sounds like the township is looking out for the school district to say there's some benefit here because you get an expanded piece of ground, you get 55-plus. I mean, there are some benefits. I think the board has to decide uh not to downplay the numbers and the impact on the taxpayers and so on and so forth, but if this isn't even a concept you want to entertain, why why hang this guy out here? I mean, let

086him go. Let Let him Let him start cuz he's he's writing a check every month to keep this going. And if he's if if you're going to say, "Well, we need to look at this or that and that and say no eventually," it just costs him money. And I I I'm just trying to be very realistic about that because I've seen it happen a lot. And I think from a from a collaboration standpoint, I work with a lot of school districts where they spend a lot of money to separate the bus drop the parent drop-off from the bus drop-off. And if you have more land on and you're able to design that from the start, it makes things a lot easier. If you have a bigger site, you it allows you to plan for a

087larger-size school building that can accommodate the growth that's happening. And Larry just whispered in my ear that you have 3,800 new building starts in Manor Township, I guess, or in the district. Um in the next couple years. So, you're going to need the capacity. So, I I you know, from my perspective, can we write an agreement that protects both sides? Yes. Is it absolutely ironclad that it's going to happen in the MPDES isn't going to turn up that they need a joint permit, it's going to take a year versus 8 months, right? Or HOP isn't going to make you go out and study the the the intersection with Route 999 and have to put a new traffic signal in. I No one can ever say that. But at the end of the day, you got

088to let them know whether you're going to start and whether you guys want to go down that road or not. And then we can we can write the agreement. We we can we can protect both sides. It's just whether you want to do it or not. And I appreciate both sides of this, I really do. So, Larry, [clears throat] question for you. So, if we're backing this up and we want to continue we if our plan is we want to dig in 2029, whether it's with Brandon or without Brandon, when would we need to know like when do when do you start going to work on that? I guess is my question. So, like if we were going to put in a contingency plan with Brandon moving forward, >> Sure. What would that drop-dead date

089be if Brandon needs to have everything in order, otherwise we're not breaking ground in 2029? Right. >> On either option. So, so our typical process is with what we're going through a similar land development process, which is 12 to 15 months. Right. So, we need a concept development probably 2 to 3 months before that so I can start the land development scenario. Um we're doing the same thing right now at the middle school. Um we're almost done with at least programming. We're starting diagrams and concept development. We haven't laid one building footprint on that site yet. But, um so probably by midsummer, so we've been working on for a couple months, by midsummer or so, um we'll be back here to the board to say, "Hey, here's our concept. Here's the size of the building

090that we talked to with administration. Here's what we're looking at." Um and then that land development time, if the board approves at that point, that'll start that window of 12 to 15 months. So, if you want to start construction in let's see. June of 2029. Fall of '29. So, once we're done with the middle school, right? I thought we I think we I thought we discussed June. Like kids kids left and we started. Yeah, it just depends on Right. So, like So, yeah, ideally this summer or so. >> It's not this spring. Correct. Someone said spring earlier. It's not spring. No, no, once kids are Summer or fall of 2029, right? The building gets turned over and/or we're on a different site. Um that construction period is about 18 months to 2 years depending on

091the size of that building. Okay. >> And to finish up all the site amenities. So, we need if we were going to work with Brandon and we would have an exit strategy that keeps us on track, Brandon would have to have all of his ducks in a row. And I mean that because there's a million things that have to collaborate, not Brandon's fault, out of his control, to be clear. We would need to know by June of next year that he has his approvals and everything in place or December of 2027. No, we would need um Cuz if we're June of 2029, if we back it up a year, that's June of 2028. That's when I would need. I mean, even a couple months before that. >> Right, so December 2027. For what it's worth,

092the proposed agreement has a proposed joint submission or preliminary plan. So, we're kind of lining things up. Okay. So, yeah, so if there were a joint a joint submission, we'd have a better idea of where we were at earlier on in time and I think that's that's the original time frame that he talked [clears throat] about. [snorts] So, So, what is the point of that is? Well, so there's two steps in a in a in a plan approval of a land development plan. There's a preliminary plan phase and then a final plan phase. So, and I don't know if you usually do combine with these or not. If you do or do you do separate? Okay, but so at least that once you get through preliminary, that basically says you can do this. You just

093have to develop the final details Right. and work them all out and get you all your financial securities in place and so on and so forth. So, it it allows us to align earlier if we do a joint process with Brandon and move forward that way versus kind of having him go and then we're doing our stuff over here. Like it it makes sense to do this as a joint joint plan submittal because then we know we're all aligned and we're going down the right path earlier in the process. Okay. Thank you. Brandon, who would you go to next for approval? My question is if we do the land swap and its parent to Manor Township is going to approve um your plans either or. If we do the land swap and the borough says

094no, what happens then? Or there wouldn't be a land swap. I would have said Millersville Borough says no." Where do you go? Yeah, that's like one of the risks that I get to lose sleep over [laughter] because I don't have a There's no like There's no contingency. If Millersville Borough says you can't develop this building. I still have to do everything else and I just have to figure out what to do with the current building. Obviously, a portion of that building has to be demoed for the road to come through. I think. Um My engineer says you wouldn't necessarily have to You could fit a road through there, but it would be tight. Um and then that >> [snorts] >> school would have to be reused, reimagined for something else. Yeah. But in my head,

095the the joint preliminary plan that we could submit in the next 6 months and then you get everything approved by the summer of 2028 from a preliminary plan perspective. >> You get MPDES, you get PennDOT HOP. It just makes it less stressful for that next 9 months when you're planning what sounds like a $30 million or more building so that you're not like, "Man, PennDOT better come through here like it's and you're getting to March, April of 2029 and you're like, "We want to break ground June 1st." Like it's so frustrating for the developers and it would be developed frustrating for you if you're trying to break ground June 1st and you're in front of a township in March and you get approval. It's still months and months before you can figure out all the

096administrative agreements that have to be signed, the different financial securities, the different impact fees that might have to be paid. Um the sewer and water connections and all those stuff. I mean, it's months and months of work even if even if someone's just devoted to that one thing. And I'm sure you guys want Well, I don't know. Okay. So So, just just working through this timing realistically or regardless as to and not to give you more heartburn, not to give you more nightless uh sleepless nights, but regardless with the land swap once we get that access road and utilities there don't take this personally. I hope you're successful. Right? But no matter what happens to the rest of the development we have what we need to develop a much better option for Penn Manor. More

097buffer from zoning, more buffer from road. And yes, when the development goes in, the development goes in whether it's Brandon, hope you're successful, or some other developer. We now have additional acreage. We now have a much better road access. And the thing that I look at the most is that at some point we will have second access to Bachman, which is a huge safety and a logistic advantage that is probably the biggest advantage for me, especially Leaman Avenue gets shut down. What do we do with 400 kids? How do we get them out? [clears throat] How do we access for bussing, for getting the access route around 999 or Manor Ave? You know, it his development doesn't have to be successful for us to gain these advantages. We just need the access road and Penn

098Manor will be significantly better. Sorry to Sorry to say that in front of you, but >> No, I agree. >> But yeah, that's But there's going to be development there. We're going to have to work with lots of kids, better programming, cost per seat significantly less, safety for our staff, safety for our kids, probably lower cost bussing and redistricting and everything else. Every time we put in another school, we have more administration. So, the the costs significantly outweigh the risks with contingencies. I would ask that in the agreements that we had also, between your lawyers and our lawyers, that that access road development would be one of the first things, you know, that I would like to see moving forward just so that we can guarantee that we can put Ashlawn on our timeline. And

099then what you do after that is good luck. Right. Okay, folks. I'd like to land the plane here. Uh we'll do a straw poll. This is not a vote. Nothing uh of that nature. And I'll just go I'll start with you, Mr. Beeks. Absolutely, yes. Well, I'm sorry. What exactly are we voting on? Moving on? Or straw poll? >> not There's no voting. Straw poll if you want to move forward with Brandon. >> Oh, yes. Mr. Lombardo. Yes. Mr. Hurt. No. I'm sorry. No. >> No. No. Ms. Hopewell. Yes. Ms. Wyatt. [clears throat] Yeah, abstain. You may not. I'm kidding. Uh I'm leaning towards yes. Okay. Are you keeping track of this, Mr. Okay. No. And I'm a no. Five [clears throat] in favor, four opposed. Okay. Okay. That's a not an official vote, but

100that is a straw poll. Um and we'll move on to item number two and that's the budget update. It was really four or four with one leaning. Well, it was a leaning, but that's you know. She said yes. >> [clears throat] >> I'm not telling you that we did Call Sir, Sir, Sir, we can't we can't take that. Sorry. Sir I don't not at this point. Not at this point, Sir. Thank you. Okay, so we're looking at a Thank you, Sir. Sir, thank you. Thank you, Sir. Does he know he can comment in the next it wouldn't be on the agenda. Apologies. >> Yeah, no, second second at the very end. Yeah. Sorry, Mr. Fuller. Thank you Mr. Fuller. So, we're going to follow up from two weeks ago looking at the 26-27 budget. Obviously,

101a lot of this as we talked about talked looked at the timeline two weeks ago. We're now into that second step a budget update and and I think as Dr. Full should explain well last time we'll get to the end of this and there's some things that I need from you so that I know what I put together for two weeks from now. And mostly that is what does the tax increase look like or is there any other changes [clears throat] that need to happen. So, there's our timeline. Um expenses it changed a little bit. Obviously, as I'm getting data I'm trying to keep that updated. One of the big things that I'll get in the next week or two is our actual [clears throat] property casualty and workmen's comp costs. Those come in here

102in the end of May. So, it continues to evolve and I want to put the most accurate information as we see. Still pretty much the same number $123 million with regard to expenses. One of the things that that I laid out as I talked to the team is really trying to understand where do those expenses lie and so you can see here that as we talked before salary and benefits are the primary contributor that you'll see sort as you work your way around the pie. Those numbers to the right are percentages of those categories. Obviously I stopped at bond payments cuz the slivers get smaller and smaller so it's harder to get actual words in there. But there you sort of see like what is the breakdown look like, how does it come into play,

103you know where where do the expenditures currently lie in the system? Same thing on the revenue side. Like I said pretty much the same number about $123 million. Um similar approach, right? Where does the revenue come from? You'll see that about 50% of it does come from the local real estate taxes. You work your way around. I didn't put percentages in here you just see graphically but obviously our funding from the state is is three of those next four categories, right? Our basic education funding, our retirement and social security contribution from the state and then our special ed, our local wage tax is the only one that's in between those and then then they obviously drop off throughout there. Um You'll notice and now post COVID we're back down to that that much lower federal

104number and so they're the smallest pieces of that pie that are out there. We talked about it before, 2 weeks ago, right? Looking at the long-term plan, where do we go? Some updated information there. So, the information for discussion for you all this evening, laid it out what you've seen in the numbers ahead, have that 3.5% tax increase. It does cover those expenses and revenues. It does assume, as we talked 2 weeks ago, the governor's proposed budget and allows us to take 1% of the tax increase and and use it towards the projects. 4.5, which is our maximum, which is the Penn Manor Act 1 index, does everything that 3.5 does, except it now allows more to go towards the bond capacity. What do the differences look like? So, at this point, you can see

105that a 3.5% tax increase is allows us to put 600,000 towards the projects. That tax increase costs $10.33 a month to the median household. 4.5% allows us to double what we can put towards the project. That either shortens our overall need to build or gives us some flexibility in those out years, depending on what the budgets look like. That increase is about 13 dollars and 25 cents per month per household. So, the difference between the two is about 35 dollars per year for the median household. That's where we're at tonight. Questions and discussion. Yeah, Dan, do you do you put you on a hot seat, but you have kind of >> Fred, Fred, speak into your microphone. >> sorry. I I wonder Mr. Forry, if you have sort of a recommendation within that range. I

106I think we know what we know today. And if if the board is able to say as we did last year, we can take 2% of the tax increase and put it towards those projects knowing as Raymond James talked about the Act 1 index is going to go down. I don't know what future costs are going to do. Um it I think it puts us in a better spot in the next few years if that's a possible. Okay. I'll go first. Uh slide 10 and 11. The tax increases help cover the new autistic support classrooms. And the staffing, yes? Yes, so the >> My my issue with that is on February the 2nd, we saw a proposal that taking back two autistic support classrooms away from the IU was somewhere between a nominal and a

107$900,000 a year savings. So, I'm just confused as to how >> [snorts] >> the tax increase is going to go to cover the cost of that when that was originally a cost savings to the taxpayers. Right, all I'm stating in that is that I I just want to make sure what everybody understands what's in the budget. Right, it's not that we need a tax increase to do that. It's the budget includes those positions that change. Right? It includes I I just want to make sure everyone knows what's there. Would we need 5 and 1/2%? If we didn't take back the autistic support classrooms? Because we were going to save a million dollars. We're We're not saving money in this current year. We're saving money in the future years. And And And really it's a cost

108avoidance. Cost avoidance this year. Correct. So, I don't know that we would be able to put as much money towards the bond project if we had not taken those classes back. Um so, I apologize if I missed this cuz I had to step out. Um but, what have we cut? Or what have we looked at cutting? I know that we did a cost savings measure with special ed, which I think is fabulous. But, where have we made any cost savings for sure in this budget? If If you look at our expenses, So, our breakdown, as you can see, the the vast majority of our of our expenses are in salaries and benefits, student services, and bonds. Beyond that, any cut to any other areas is pretty insignificant. So, what we would be having to do

109is, at some point, if we were going to look at significant savings that we [clears throat] are already do not have in place, we would have to cut programming. So, I mean, I hear that, but we also just said it's not insignificant to raise people's taxes $35 a year, but we're not willing to look where we could save $35 a year. So, and I That's absurd. I understand that that's an absurdity. But, there's I I pride ourselves on the fact that we run on a shoestring budget, but I run on a shoestring budget budget within my business and I still just saved 15% on my cell phone bill this year because they called me and said, "Hey, if you do this, you save 15%." So, while that was a small savings, it was still a

110way that I could save save money and put that towards something else. And so, there's I can't imagine there isn't something that we can say to the taxpayers, "Hey folks, we have to raise taxes, but we found this way to save 5% or 10% on this expense." Is that something we're looking for? Is that something the district has historically done? I mean, from year to year, is there is there always a a savings brought? No, it's something that I've asked for for 9 years. Okay. Okay. I was just interested in the historical perspective. >> not. Just so you're Yeah. So, as as we continue our discussion, uh I think if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, Mr. Forry, you're proposing either a three and a half or a four and a half or any such

111number, but those uh those two numbers have the data up on the screen to back them up. Any other variation, we would not be able to see the revenue expenditure in real time. Correct. >> Correct. So, um uh so, as we continue our deliberation, I just want to have that in everybody's um forefront. Yeah, I I I have a quick question. So, with all of the development that's coming into the township, with everything that's going on, building buildings, etc., etc., how is the Act 1 index going to affect our projected tax increases year 3 4 5 to be able to be able to meet the needs that we're going to have to need meet for the construction of new buildings, renovation of buildings teachers, staff, etc. that we're going to have to bring on for

112all the expansion. How is this all going to be affected? based you know, year 3 4 5 You know, so so my question is is right right now our max tax increase would be 4.5, right? Between Act 1 and our Adjusted index is >> Yes. Um From what I've been hearing is that's expected to our Act 1's expected to go lower plus also probably our um My mind's gone right now. But you know, the additional that we can What what would you see as projection year 3 4 5 that we would need in order to be able to sustain what we're doing. So I think that the challenge The challenge is is that we have our adjusted index. You remember we talked about it before. It It's based on market value and personal income. Um

113As market value goes up there's going to have to be a higher personal income to support that. Um and so I think that our added above the state is probably also going to drop. So I think if you know, we saw the numbers from Raymond James where you're talking about going down to the low 3s I don't know that we're going to add a full percent anymore above that. You know, it it all It when it gets how it gets built, you know, those type things. Um and so I think the other thing that the challenge that we have is that we um we need to plan longer um to be ready for the construction than waiting till the tax base grows. Um and so how do we how do we get ahead of that?

114How do we make sure that we're in a good spot when that comes? And you know, I None of us expected to pay 450 a gallon for gasoline today. So >> Where was that at? So you know [clears throat] you know, that's part of when I was asked, you know, We know what we can do today. Right. But my question being then becomes [snorts and clears throat] we have one of two options, right? Raise taxes or find areas that are that we can save save additional dollars. >> Sure. And There was a and and again support what Nikki's saying. I think that has to be So I a combination. So I think the challenge and we've shared before Right. we are at the bottom of the county in expenditure per student. And we're also one

115of the three largest. We're growing. Other schools are shrinking. So as averages so as students go and taxes go, we're not going to catch up as students in other districts are shrinking and their taxes continue to grow. Their costs per students is going to go up. So Am I >> But but when you have a shrinking enrollment, you can reduce staffing. When you don't have a shrinking enrollment, you can't reduce staffing unless you're going to eliminate what you offer. Right? If you have if the second grade class is smaller and a second grade teacher retires, then you don't have to fill that second grade. Right? We're not in that scenario. I I think the other thing that long before I got here the district has I mean, I'll look straight across from me. I don't

116know that anyone more efficiently does a tech budget Agreed. than Mr. Risinger. Right? When you look I mean, look where tech is. It's 1.4% of our entire budget. Why? Because every nickel that could be taken out has been taken out, right? The 15% reduction, the cell phones are down, the copying is down, the like that's just who we are and what we do. And so what we're asking is then show us that. Like if you got a 15% reduction in the cell phone bill last year, tell us. Like does does that make sense? It it does, but when we're already paying less than everyone else, we're not getting a 15%. We're just continuing to keep >> like can we turn off the lights in the high school on the weekends? I I mean, I'm I'm

117not trying to be absurd. I'm just saying there's there's there's something. Do we not replace athletic uniforms every 4 years and we replace them every 5 years? Like I don't think that Matt has I mean, Mr. Weeks, I apologize, you know, has talked about going through the lean process and we have resisted doing that. And you know, if we did that type of analysis and it came back and said, "Hey, you're already lean." I think we'd stop beating the drum. >> First off, there's always room for improvement. Right. There's, you know, I don't know I I hate to use this word, but there's waste in everything that we do. And one of the first concepts of lean is not a reduction of staff. That's the first thing we have to look you know again, maybe

118you know, through attrition, but you know, it is not you know, we do not reduce our staff 10% and say we're lean. That's not the case. There's a ton of other avenues that we can look at to save. If I can take the unpopular position of defending this a little bit. Um So without the buildings, it would be 2 and 1/2% would would anyone have a hard time with that? I mean these days 2 and 1/2 I don't know what the average is out there, Dan, but that seems pretty reasonable. Um so the question is to me >> money by force from people that could take them from their homes I don't I want to know that we're we're looking for any way possibly that we can cut before we raise taxes even a half

119a percent, if I'm being honest. And that's what we have done in all these categories when we talk about, you know, our monthly bills our tracking of the expenses throughout the throughout the course of the year. We continue and we went through this line by line. We went through the budget line by line as we've talked about each month. And each of these, you know, for example, the building accounts .7% of our budget. That number has been in existence for five now year five years. We have not increased that percentage. So we continue to look at that and we continue to look at these numbers line by line. And again, that's that's some of the things that we would gladly do with individual board members. If we want to look at this as an exhaustive

120situation where the board and it's all of you say, we want to go through this process. We would gladly do that if if that's the will of the board. We we I asked Charlie to pull what are we saving in tech? And Charlie pulled up his numbers [clears throat] and I think we came to what, Charlie? 900,000? I mean don't quote me on that. I have to pull the spreadsheet. That's what That's That's like our yearly savings. So, as we continue to talk about this, yes, you're right, Mr. Herr. To balance the budget of growing expenses in three areas, it would be a 2.5%. And I guess what I'm asking for is when we have these conversations, it would be it would be in my opinion appropriate for you to just mention, "Hey, the tech

121budget is 7%." Or I can't see the number cuz 0.7% and we saved $900,000 this year. I know you give us those presentations, but it would be helpful in this process for us to have that information in this type of setting, not just in a presentation 6 months ago that you want me to that you want us and the taxpayers to recall, I guess is what I'm saying. I do want to give a plug for meeting with um Mr. Forry because I did that this past weekend it was extremely helpful. So, if anyone is interested in doing that, he opens the books and is willing to share. So, um it definitely helped me with my perspective. So, I'm just going to speak that I'm a spreadsheet girl, so pie charts make it really hard for

122me to make solid decisions. >> [laughter] >> So, I I miss You used to have presentations where we saw solid like actual numbers and now I really just get percentages or factoids, which are helpful, but I miss seeing the solid numbers for us to be able to get a better bigger picture of what we're dealing with and addressing. Um because I don't know. That's just my visual need, but and I don't know, maybe other people don't need that, but that helps me to be able to see where we're I mean, I see the pie charts, but in solid dollar numbers to like see where things are going, that is way more helpful to and I would I also agree um and I've heard it well. I sat out there for half a decade hearing people

123always saying about finding places to cut and it's very fascinating to me that we're still not really being given even a smidgen of something. Yes, I know we have work on a bare-bones budget, but I still think that there's areas that people can find to be creative with your budget. We have to do it at home and I don't think if people have to do it in their homes, I think that there's nothing wrong with asking us to find areas that are even small areas to at least acknowledge. Um I did I did put seven or eight documents in the board folder two weeks ago that have 20 plus pages of spreadsheets in them. So, they're there. I To Dr. Gale's point, I want to present what the will of the board is and so,

124if the will of the board is more, then we'll present more, but I I I think the documents are there if you take a look. >> Yeah. Yep, they are there and much appreciated. Again, uh in the interest of landing the plane, I want to make sure that all the questions are answered. And then we have to make a motion to place this on the May 18th voting agenda with a percentage. Correct. So, um And and right now we have the the data to support a 3.5 or a 4.5. Or we could put something else in there, but recognizing we're not going to have revenue versus expenses because we're not going to ask Mr. Ford to do that at this particular juncture. This is a placeholder. This isn't the final budget. So, it could it

125could be anything, but it's not going to we're not going to have numbers to support unless we use the 3.5 or the 4.5. So, I will entertain a motion if there are no further questions. Can you can you put the back up with the uh 4.5 3.5 one please. Thank you. So, can I can we discuss more? >> Sure, absolutely. >> [clears throat] >> So, with the Act 1 probably going down, I I don't want to raise taxes either, but I don't want to also put ourselves in a bind where we're not able to pay the bills. Uh So, I mean, I to me the bare minimum is the 3 and 1/2%. And if next year the Act 1 is sinking a little bit, I mean, when we built the high school, you what what

126was it? 7% >> 7% the one year, okay. Yeah, we were >> can't really do that anymore. No. No, but if we don't raise it rate, couldn't there be a point where we would need to go to the absolute max year after year after year? I mean, I think it's [clears throat] it's Well, I think we're at that point this evening, and I think that's what Fred is struggling with over there. Um But yeah, I think Mr. Forry said that you can't you can't really say, "Oh, we're going to do 10% this year with that >> Right, you don't you don't So, you have to apply for exceptions. If you remember, we talked about it when they started giving us the additional rate of learn. Right, so we've been getting an additional 5.4 million over

127the last 2 years. If you go to exceptions, you have to give all that away. Well, we can't raise taxes to give a Mhm. Right. Right. >> So, yes, this is the limit that that we're going to that's possible. So, like to me the the extra is is sort of a mandate that the Manor Township mandate. And uh so so it's it's not really negotiable. I mean, we have to we have to build. And to go after Charlie for 1% uh like I mean, he saves money like it's unbelievable. I'm appreciative of that. I just think that we need that in the presentation. That's what I was asking. In this presentation? I think that when we're raising taxes, the taxpayers should also see the other side and what we've done [clears throat] to try to

128conserve our resources. I think that's fair. I think it's [snorts] more I think people understand if we're trying to save money and do things on a shoestring budget if we have to go back and ask them for more money. That's all. Fred, is that a Is that a motion? No, I didn't make a motion. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Uh I don't disagree uh and I hate to say it. Um you know, the good news is is if we continue to raise taxes at 4 and 1/2 this year, say 4.1 next year, 3.9 the year after, there might not be anybody to live in those homes that haven't been built yet cuz we'll tax them right out of town. Um you know, but thinking ahead to 2029, you know, and and we don't know what

129that might be, 1 and 1/2 to 3 and 1/2% I think they use per year. I think that's what Larry said. I might be off here or there. That that could all change to two to four or three to five. Um so world we live in when we when we have developments coming in whether we want them or not. Um so This is what was handed to us. Well But the schools needed to be upgraded and all like actual minute is not a result of new developments it's a result of an existing school that's reached >> The expansion of it. But but we weren't talking about doing a 4.5% last year. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. We weren't. In fact, we were fighting about giving extra money last year if you remember.

130Mhm. And now we're talking about a 4.5. Make it make sense. We were arguing about what was it last year? 0.75 or something like it? >> It was less than a percent to go up. Correct. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. >> [clears throat] >> So Listen. I'm the one who stood up in front of the Manor Township supervisors and I stood up in front of a uh you know, a Republican committee last year and I said we were going to have to raise taxes. And here we are. So which one of us is going to make that motion? I'll make the motion for the 3 and 1/2% to be on the agenda. 3 and 1/2% Do I have a second? You think we should get a feel for what people are thinking? Or just go with it.

131I guess we have a motion. >> Well, we have a motion. We we don't have to second that motion and it could it could fall and and everybody can throw out a number. Or if you want to rescind your motion for a second and then take I mean I can if the board wants to have further discussion. If you want to take out a number >> discussion for a second. >> to throw four out there. You're throwing four. No, I'm not. But then Wait. But Wait. Did you officially Did you officially rescind your motion? >> the motion? Did Can you rescind it? Just say I rescind my motion. >> Okay, I rescind my motion. >> Thank you very much. I'm not seconding Fred's motion though. >> No, no, no, no. Fred Fred's just throwing a

132number out. >> Fred's already He's not making a There's no There's no motion. Fred's just He threw out four. I second. Well, there's no motion. I thought No, no, he's just throwing out a number. >> we're talking. What do you guys say? >> Okay. So, you're So, you obviously think it's >> with the developments that are coming, with what we have to do with doubling the schools, renovating any schools, etc., etc., who knows what else is coming. We don't know how much the Act 1 index is. I mean, this is almost a year like we had two at the high school where we have to go I I I feel that we need to go a little bit higher to build a buffer so that we're not caught you know, 3 4 years down the

133road where you know, we're we're pulling from some some other general fund. I Trust me, I do not want to I would be a zero. I would be You know, I'd even be a tax Give back. >> rebate. You know, give it lower the tax. >> negative tax. >> Um I but with what we don't know, with the Act 1 index, with additional developments, whether it's in Manor Township or Peckville or Mardic or anywhere, we have to be prepared. And I just I I would be okay Well, my skin's crawling, but 4%. I mean, I I would not be opposed to that at this point with what's all been presented. Steph, what do you think? You you were at 3.5. Can you live with a four? >> [laughter] >> I think the gentleman who suggested

134it should provide the second. Well, no, there's no motion. It's just It's just We're just Yes, I would not go with four, but yes, I could I could go with four. I think 0% is completely unrealistic given the state of the world. I just want to say that. And And I think people need to remember what um was said, which is you're already the lowest per student expense. That comes with Right? And you're saying you want them to go even lower? I I just Although I'm a big proponent of lean, just as a side note. Yellow belt certified, ready to go. Let's do it. All right. Mr. Lombardo. I think we should vote on a four. Ms. Wirt. I just look ahead and all the building that we have to do. We can always back

135off. We all have to pay taxes. Not one of us wants to increase what we have to pay. But I would be willing to go to a 4.5 only because of what we have ahead of us. Okay. Mr. Worful. I can support four. Okay. Mrs. Hope. I would agree at the four. Mrs. Nafziger. I've been very [clears throat] clear for nine years. I will not vote for a budget where we are not given clear places where we have trimmed. So. That doesn't matter what >> So it doesn't matter what the number is. Okay. I will remain consistent. Okay. I think for me, Dr. Fullerton, is the difference the amount more that you get with a 4.5 for $3 a month, and I realize people are on fixed incomes. Um but that's why I would recommend

136four. But it It as though the general board is good with four and I would be good with that. >> and and and you know, early in early in my life in public service, you know, I always saw that $3 a month and just been uh it's only 36 bucks a year, but now it's 36 bucks a year plus whatever percent we do again next year forever. >> And so I I don't subscribe to that. I That's a great graphic up there. In in my mind, that bottom line is a feel-good graphic. Um I don't feel good about it. Um I can live with a four. I came in here tonight thinking, you know, the 3.5. I really want to say zero just for fun. Um but I think we're making a mistake if we

137don't do 4.5 and I hate saying that. I hate it. I hate the four. But again, this is just a a placeholder. So, if someone would please make a motion since the majority of the board said four, we'll do four. So moved. I motion, may I have a second, please? Second. Second. Any further comment or question? All those in favor? Seven affirmative votes. Opposed? And two opposed. Thank you. Item number three, we got some policy here, Dr. Gal. This is the second reading of the policy that was introduced uh at our last meeting regarding the selection of instructional presenters. Just uh review real quick. Uh it outlines the procedures for selecting and managing instructional presenters. So, this would be people who are coming into the school to present to students, staff, any of the above.

138Uh process is developed uh with input from the staff as well as the guidelines that need to be followed by the presenters. Okay. Any questions for Dr. Gale? On a positive note, I would like to thank Dr. Gale for this policy. I know that it was labor intensive and it came at the request of the board. Um and I think it it solves the concerns that several people had. So, thank you. Seeing no questions, may have a motion to place this item on our May 18th voting agenda. So moved. Second. Thank you, Mr. Warfel and Mr. Labarda. Any further comment or question? All those in favor? Nine affirmative votes. Anything else for the Committee of the Whole? Seeing none, I'd like to adjourn the Committee of the Whole and move to the >> do a

1395-minute Can we do like a 2-minute potty break, please? What all do you need a Some potty break. Yeah. Folks, I'll call a recess for 5 minutes for uh the biological >> Okay. Thank you all. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for granting us a a brief recess. So, I'll call to order the Monday, May 4th school board meeting of the Penn Manor School Board Directors. Would you please join me in a moment of silence and the flag salute. >> [snorts] >> Thank you. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The next scheduled meeting of the Penn Manor School Board will be held on Monday, May 18th, 2026, following the Committee of

140the Whole meeting. An executive session was held prior to the Committee of the Whole meeting for the purpose of discussing personnel, as detailed on the Committee of the Whole agenda. Mrs. Rhodes, may we have a roll call, please? Sure. Mr. Beaks? Present. Mr. Herr? Here. Mrs. Ho? Here. Mrs. Keck? Here. Mr. Lombardo? Right here. Mr. Warfel? Here. Ms. Worth? Here. Mrs. Nafziger? Here. Dr. Fullerton? Here. Nine board members present. Thank you, Mrs. Rhodes. In each of our voting agenda meetings, we offer two opportunities for our citizens to make comments. We have arrived at that first opportunity. This opportunity deals with items on our agenda only. Do we have any citizens wishing to make comments? Seeing none, be happy to entertain a motion to approve the minutes of our April 20th, 2026 board voting agenda. So

141moved. Second. And a second. Thank you. Any further comment or question? All those in favor. Nine affirmative votes. Dr. Gail, superintendent's report. Thank you, Dr. Forten. >> [clears throat] >> Uh just a reminder about the retiree breakfast that PMEF is having on Wednesday. I've been asked just to confirm those board members who are attending. Just see a show of hand. Thank you. Uh and then just also a reminder about our board breakfast at Peck Elementary on Thursday. We will be in the academic support room, which is what I consider the playground side of the building. So, if you come in the main entrance, down the first hallway in the playground back of the building. Look forward to having that opportunity. Uh this week is teacher appreciation week. And I think it's inadequate to say that

142we appreciate our teachers and support staff for all they do. Uh that's not just enough. It's not the depth that we really uh feel towards that. Uh as I visit schools and classrooms, read the weekly school happening emails, and see the accolades and achievement of our students, I see the work and impact our teachers and staff have. And I'm really proud of the culture that has developed in the district. Do what we can to continuously get better. That's our That's our philosophy. That's the perspective that many of us have. We don't chase new initiatives after new initiative. We rely heavily on the teachers' creativity, their content knowledge, and their desire to help students. It starts with the good people that we employ, add in the resources we provide, and then support from their colleagues and

143learning opportunities that are provided by the district. Pet Manor teachers are a breed of their own. We have a very specific culture that defines what our teachers are asked to do, how they do what they do, and the level they expect to do things. I'm very pleased and honored to to work with our staff and our and our teachers. This week is an opportunity to celebrate and thank our teachers and support staff for the work that they do. It truly warms my heart to see the way that our community through PTO organizations, our students, as well as in some cases the colleagues, and of course what the board will be providing our teachers with this week. Uh I know for some of them they will not go hungry certainly this week through what's being shared

144with them. Last at the end of last week when we hit May 1st, I did share the following encouragement with the staff, and I hope that they take heart in this. Uh and I said, "This month will feature many extra activities as we know by the the calendar of May, where we formally recognize our students' accomplishments. >> [clears throat] >> For I encourage them to please use the moments as affirmation of the work that have been done. But also I encourage the staff and teachers to be reflective during the routine day-to-day activities as it's in those regular moments where we truly see what is happening." And that is certainly happening in all of our schools. So while we celebrate this week what our teachers and staff are doing, we know that that certainly carries throughout

145the whole whole year. And as we know, this year will come to an end and there will be plenty to celebrate that will give us momentum going into next year. So thank you to all of our teachers and our support staff for all that they do in our district. Thank you, Dr. Forten. Thank you, Dr. Gale. Any questions for Dr. Gale? Seeing none. Please join me in reviewing our school board meeting agenda, item two. Letter A. Any comments or questions? Okay. Item three. A through J. Any comments or questions? And item four A through E. Any comments or questions? Okay. Thank you. May I have a motion to approve item two letter A? So moved. Thank you. Second? Second. Thank you. Any further comment or question? All those in favor? Nine affirmative votes. Item three

146A through J. May I have a motion to approve? So moved. Thank you. A second? Second. Thank you. Any further comment or question? All those in favor? Nine affirmative votes. And item four A through E. May I have a motion, please? So moved. Thank you. I have a second? Second. Thank you. Any further comment or question? All those in favor? Nine affirmative votes. Thank you very much. We have now reached the second opportunity for our citizens to make comments. These comments can be pertaining to any district business. Do we have citizens wishing to make a comment this evening? I will remind you the comment time is 5 minutes and would you please state your name and your municipality. Hi everybody. This is Tony Barr from Manor Township again. I missed you all over the last

147month but I'm glad to be back. I brought my child Harper again with me tonight at her own request. Recently I met with some students from the school's GSA club uh the high school and um they had a conversation with me uh about something certain concerns that they also had in addition to the concerns that I brought to the board when I brought Harper last time. Um it's a little concerning, and I hope that this board takes these concerns seriously. Students in this club have reported regular harassment, including the use of slurs and targeted comments, and described an environment where that kind of behavior is normalized or ignored or goes without consequence. Many of them also expressed a lack of support from staff when these incidents occurred, many of whom saying that their concerns were

148ignored or minimized by the staff they approached. The students also described feeling unsafe in certain areas of the school, especially in bathrooms and hallways, and spoke about being constantly misgendered by students and staff, or not knowing which adults they can trust. There was also a strong and repeated concern about privacy, specifically fear of being outed due to how names and records are handled. While some students identified supportive teachers and spaces within the high school, that sense of safety is not consistent throughout the building. This is how policies like 123.4 and 216.2 are experienced by these students. The outcome is very alarming. That is not protection. Protection means that a student doesn't have to wonder whether using their name will expose them. It means they don't have to assess whether a space or an adult that

149they are supposed to be able to trust are safe. My child is sitting here tonight. She's not a talking point. She's not a statistic. Hers is not an isolated case. Just like everyone else, Harper and her fellow students deserve to be able to go to school and focus on being a student, not on managing risk, not on hiding parts of who they are, and not on wondering how the systems around them might impact their safety. The students who shared their experiences did so honestly and bravely. And when they tell us that something is not working the way it should, we have a responsibility as their caretakers to listen. It's not about intent. It's about impact. Right now, the impact is telling us that these policies are not protecting the students who need it the most.

150I urge you to take that seriously, along with the other words that I've spoken tonight, and to review these policies with student safety, not just in theory, but in practice, as the priority. Thank you. Any other citizens wishing to make comment? Seeing none, anything else for the good of the board? If not, we will see you in 2 weeks. Enjoy. I think it's supposed to be beautiful tomorrow, so enjoy that day.