001vote on the Ethan Elementary School bids. It's Tuesday, February 3rd. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance. >> I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Next on the agenda is public comment. As per policy 006, the board provides an opportunity at each special board meeting for eligible participants to comment on agenda items only. Do we have any public comment? Okay, seeing none, we move on to our priority discussion item. The recommended action is that the board accepts and awards bids, including recommended al alternates for the construction of the new Ethan Elementary School and directs administration, professionals, and council to proceed with processing contracts for each prime contractor to its full
002execution. Do I have a motion to discuss? >> So moved, Miss Dunn, and a second. >> Second, Miss Girtton. Thank you. I'll turn it over to Mr. Morris. >> Good evening. Thank you. Yes. Uh tonight we're here again um to uh review the the bids and the recommended alternates um as we did at the regular January 27th board meeting. Um, with us this evening is Damian Spar from Site Logic, our construction management firm, who is joining via Zoom, as well as Walt Tac from Site Logic, and Steve Barren from Breland Architecture. Um, we do have the presentation available tonight um that includes all of the slides that we reviewed last week. Um, we are happy to uh review that presentation with you again this evening. um review any of the slides and most certainly answer
003any questions you might have this evening. So >> Damian, do you want to make some comments? >> May I Good evening. It's nice to be uh talking to everyone again. I apologize for not being able to be in the room. Uh, I'm excited for what it is that we've been working on for so long, coming together tonight to potentially do so much for the community in a board vote here. One of the things that was very important last time during our conversation was understanding how we as a professional team looked at all the contractors that were the apparent low bidder before they were determined to uh be a low bidder that was considered uh laudable enough to be recommended for award. And uh what I'd like to do is remind everybody of what those things
004were. Uh last time we were together, it was requested that I provide some of that information. I'm going to take some of um what was written to the administration and and repeat it here. So, prior to the award of construction contracts by a public school district in Pennsylvania, professional teams take several steps to understand the nature of of how well a contractor performs when they are an apparent low bidder. And these are for prime contractors. This the the case of the new elementary school is no different. They included several avenues of research. The first was requiring a submission of a statement of qualifications. That's a a qualification statement that gets filled out by each submitting prime contractor. It is a form from the American Institute of Architects. It's supposed to be filled out accurately and
005truthfully. We have not found any of um our submitting apparent low biders to have gone against that requirement. Second, we required the submission of an additional statement of qualifications that was supplemented to the form by the AIA and that was uh thoughtfully about public school construction in Pennsylvania, Delaware County, and the area, etc. Again, we did not find anything that that was not filled out accurately and truthfully to our knowledge. Further, we require a performance and payment bond that has a demonstrated level of solveny of the bonding entity. all of the apparent low biders met that criteria. We also did reviews um online of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration which we all know as OSHA. There is something called an establishment search and it allows us very quickly to go back for the last
0065 years and understand the extent of OSHA's involvement with inspections, issues, violations, etc. And while we see some contractors that do have inspections and an occasional violation, we do see that um it is not does not rise to a level that is um that we find to be inordinate in any way and it a lot of times because we as construction managers and architects are are around when those things happen, we are aware of those. So we found no surprises in our research. relative to OSHA. We also review something called the experience modification ratio or EMR that provides insight into the way insurance companies view the prime contractors that are bidding. We did not find any EMR figures in what was provided to us that we felt to be out of line for the contractors
007that are submitting. And finally, we reviewed the Pennsylvania uh debarment and settlement list that the Commonwealth has and keeps up to date to make sure that we didn't have any of our prime contractors on that list. And none of them were. In addition to that, a lot goes into what the architect, the construction manager, and really even some of your former school administrators know as how these contractors perform. And again, we felt that they the contractors are apparent low biders fall within the norm and the expected levels of of standard that we expect to see on these projects and did not have any reason to recommend anything uh like a a reconsideration or not accepting of the bid. It's important to know that all of these contractors are working within the design public bid build
008construction procurement method that uses the separations act of 1973 meaning you have four more separate contracts for construction and you can see here we have more than four and we use prevailing wage rates as issued by the department of labor and industry uh to create a more even bidding environment between open shop and union shop contractors. So those are are some of the things that that we look at. There's been a lot of work and and there has been a unanimous agreement among the professionals and council that the contractors being presented tonight um do withstand those tests and can be considered for award. I'm not sure if we would like to, but I'm I'm happy to review the uh the program from last week. >> Do you anyone I think we're I think we're okay.
009>> Yeah, we're we're okay. Do we have would would we like to would the at the pleasure of the board would we like to go over some of those slides just to to uh recall and represent for anyone that wasn't here what we reviewed last week in summary. >> Mr. Spar, if you're I I did have to miss last week's meeting for a a business trip, but I actually watched it last night, so I'm recently fresh on the material. Reasonably recently fresh. Um, and I did have a couple questions, but I don't want to step on toes if there were if you had something else. >> Um, no, I just before we open up a question, I just um, thank you. I think that was very helpful. I mean, for members of the public who
010are may not be aware, we are we are required by law to go with the lowest responsible bidder. And so, you know, we were um sitting on pins and needles back several weeks ago waiting for these bids to be open. We had a lot of um we were pleased with the amount of um interest we had. We had a total of seven and um and so then we have our lowest and really what we've been doing since that moment is really the due diligence around the word responsible, right? Like and so how do we define responsible? And so um Damian, thank you very much. I think that was helpful to just kind of go through. As you know, we've been asking lots of questions. They started last week in our meeting and they've been we've
011been receiving emails um um the team's been receiving emails about questions. So um I'd love to right now open it up to the board um for any further questions. So Miss Dunn since >> so I I I want to say first thank you to my fellow board members. I actually a number of the questions I had noted got asked already. So that's always exciting for me. I don't have to talk too much. Um I I noticed um or I I heard you say this evening that you did do OSHA searches on all of the biders. And just for our information, not because I'm judging, did you when you did the searches, do the searches look at just the way the way the searches are set up in the OSHA system, are they just an individual
012legal entity or is it the kind of the legal corporate group? >> Does that make sense? And and I asked that because a lot of companies have, you know, they have a they have a various subsidiaries. And so I just was wondering how that search runs. >> When when I looked at that, I was looking at the overall. So if um if a company um Oh, well, I'm going to use Reynolds and Site Logic as an example. >> Okay. >> If I were looking at Reynolds and Site Logic, I would look at both Site Logic and I would look at um Reynolds and then I would capture all. So, I was being specific and I was being general as I as I did that search. And um I actually uh spoke to our um we
013have a safety consultant and I actually spoke to that safety consultant as I was doing some of this just to make sure I was covering everything. So, yeah. Yes. I I think that we covered it the way that um you're thinking about. >> Okay. Can you just give an example of what would be general and what would be specific? Sure. Um, what would be general is if I typed in Site Logic and what would be specific is if I typed in Site Logic Energy Services. So, uh, kind of a parent company versus parent company name versus a full name that you might um, not get everything that you were looking for. >> You knew what I meant. >> Go both ways just to catch anything that we could. No, that's helpful. Um, the other one
014I just I was a little curious. I hadn't heard of this experience modification radio ratio um insurance rating. Where did you get the determination about what's an an acceptable range for the biders to fall within? >> It's the way that the ratio is constructed. A a a number of 1.0 is considered kind of norm. Um, as you go higher than 1.0, that means that they're a bigger risk for insurance companies. When you go lower than 1.0, you are a less risk for insurance companies. So, I I believe to to simplify it, they kind of made the standard around 1.0 so that they could easily determine what that was. And that's that's just something that we're used to dealing with as contractors and construction managers as we deal with subcontractors and other contractors. >> And and
015without challenging you too much, I probably should have let Mr. Lee ask that question, but the without did did each of the biders that's proposed tonight fall at or below one 1.0? I think that one of the biders um and it was a bidder of a small scope had a number that was was higher than 1.0 but it was also a bidder that we've had experience with that it didn't rise to a level of a concern. >> Okay. When you say we've had experience with do you mean you >> is that correct? Was there one of those? >> Yeah, there was one that had a mod factor of 1.125. So just >> very small variance. Okay. >> Okay. And and when you say we've had experience with, you mean site logic or brerlin, not Rner
016necessarily? >> Site logic and Brelin. I think in those cases. Yeah. >> Okay. That was helpful. Um and then just if you could remind me, did we get references from other school districts with recent experience with these dis with these contractors? We we we had references I think I'm trying to recall if there are references in the sheet but we kind of get references in the industry because of what we do and who we work with and we give references to each other. So, um, so, so we did, uh, we really exercised the what I would call the informal reference because of all of us knowing who we know and and asking questions and asking the hard questions rather than just getting the references that the prime contractors would give us, which would tend to
017be set up to be good references. >> Okay. Thank you, M. actually >> uh yes just to uh follow up on that Mr. bar the experience mod of 1.125 basically that's equating to like 12 and a half% you know deviation really right above uh what their normal insurance rate would be so basically they're paying a search charge so do you remember um like how many years or what type of claims like did they give you that type of information other than just that experience mod >> the interesting thing with them is go ahead >> yeah they they did not have any reportable >> injuries injuries in the last three years. Um, but yet their their mod factor is a little higher. There are other things that go into it besides just in injuries and incidents.
018It can also be uh safety policy uh things like that that go into it. Um I don't recall I should know it because I used to have my own business and dealt with it, but I don't recall what else goes into it off the top of my head. >> So sorry. Did you have something else you want to add, Mrs. Spar, or >> I I was uh I'm I apologize. I'm looking for um an email. Walt actually did a a very good uh review of that. I'm was struggling to find it because I do want to make sure that we're not misquing the the figure um before we get any further here. If you give me just a minute, please. Actually, yeah, I'm I'm looking at the email. I have it printed out, Damian. >>
019Okay. I yeah I do I do see the 1.125 and everybody else's was um under was under one and the lowest that we saw got down into like 0.5 the 0.5 to 6 range >> which 0.5 is as low as it gets. So that's an exceptional uh modification factor. And if you think about it, they take the standard rate for whatever trade you of workers you employ and then they multiply the standard rate per dollar by that modification factor and that gets your adjusted insurance rate. So they're getting a pretty significant discount on their workers compensation insurance as a result. Okay. Again, um you know, this is one area I'm not as well versed in with the experience mod, but it and and and thanks for I guess the clarification, Mr. back about like how
020the experience mod despite the name it's not solely based upon actual historical experience but based upon other qualitative aspects you know and and so maybe they don't necessarily have a good uh risk management program for example >> and they could be debited you know for for that very reason alone >> and it could be that they're they had several claims going back four or five years because if I'm not mistaken the EMR goes back I I think five or six years with looking at the the incident. So sometimes that can can linger for some time. >> Okay. Well, yes. At the end of the day, we just I just want to explore that a little more so that you know, we as the public and the board understands, but ultimately the decision is really um
021partly quantitative and partly qualitative. >> And at the end of the day, you know, the entire team basically felt very comfortable with this, you know, prime contractor and that's the bottom line. >> We've actually done a lot of work with this particular contractor and I don't know that we've ever had any issues with them. >> Okay. Very good. Thank you. Any other questions? >> I don't know if the microphone is at Lauren. Do you have a question? >> Oh, I actually So, thank you Damian for uh being with us remotely and the information you shared with us last week, the team, everybody who came out last week. Um, you know, I think we as the board had a good overview last week and then we tasked the administration and our team, I'll say our professional
022team with really digging in and taking a a hard look at things like OSHA. Um, you know, the safety I I went into that in detail last week. My, you know, I think we all share that value um with regard as number one, safety first. Exactly. Absolutely. Number one. Thank you, Liz. Um, so I want to thank you and acknowledge you and I do, you know, we did receive a number of emails. I guess not every member of the board received them over the weekend. We've shared them with the with the board at this point. And to your credit and and I do want to acknowledge our our administrative staff and our professional who we have here on retainer. There was a lot of information to get uh since Friday and I really appreciate that
023you all made the time to further look into this information and are coming to us tonight with still the recommendation that although some information was shared, you you did more due diligence. Mr. Morris, thank you so much. Um, as well, I'm I'm sure you were an integral part of this as well. I was looking out and seeing Mr. Pauling, but you as you probably actually the key guy and um, you know, continue to stand by that these are the responsible contractors who are the low who are the low biders. So, I I want to acknowledge and and and thank you for that. Um, it's still a frustrating process for me. I personally still believe that as elected officials, we should have even more freedom to select who we feel would give us the best value.
024That's not always the lowest price, but I actually think in the long run that that would provide in an environment where act one already says to us if we spend too much money, we have to go to referendum and act 34 already says you can't spend too much money on your building. um this piece that is now pushing 60 50 years old. Yeah. 73 53 years old. Um I I you know is it really serving us in the best way possible but it is what we have and so I appreciate that within those confines um you know it as much as I want to lean into the word responsible as I define it turns out the state has already defined that um very clearly and you did the job to make sure that um that
025the bar of safety and em EMR ex was was all um met. I'm wondering if you could go over one other aspect we touched upon last week a little bit just because I think it would be helpful to for the public to understand this one item that we spoke about last week was our relatively small contingency budget for this project. I I recall distinctly we had a higher contingency on the high school project. It was a renovation. It's a retrofit. You know, that made sense. um this seems um as a percentage of the product project it's certainly low. So Mr. Spar, if you could go into why you feel comfortable with that number, kind of the things that might play into a change order. Um you know, I know there's different categories of things that
026might cause a change order. And I do want to circle back to the board of one other item that has less to do with the with the um professionals and just more about how we handled the high school. So if you could speak to that a little bit, I'd appreciate it. >> So when we think about change orders, um we should all think that in public bid work of any complexity and this job is has complexity and it has size. There will be issues that cause changes in cost or time. those issues generally and this this a lot of this comes from um what was used at the department of general services where I worked for some years at the state capital but their categorization was an error or omission which was an was incomplete
027or incorrect design documentation and there there aren't usually errors but there there are omissions unforeseen conditions which are unknown existing conditions in the site or in a renovation project you don't too many unforeseen conditions in a new piece of construction for obvious reasons. Those are the two that you really see more often than not unless you have an owner that likes to change things during construction. And sometimes there's a good reason to change things during construction. and and other times um it's because an owner hasn't been thoughtful in their design. I can categorically say that the Rner Township School District has been quite thoughtful through the whole design process. I don't foresee that there would be many owner requests, but there may be some things that come up that tell us we could do something
028a little bit better if we wanted to spend the discretionary cost for it. I have seen um that used in in significant ways. I saw a school district decide to build a a planetarium as an owner request. That's a pretty significant owner request. While I don't anticipate a lot of owner requests, there may be some here and contingency can be used to that end, but I typically would say if you want to uh make owner requests, fund them for from some of the the savings that you had under the cost estimate or put aside a separate contingency for owner requests. The other ones are safety. if there's an improvement that can occur to provide a safer work environment, which can happen but is unusual, or a postcode, I'm sorry, a post-design code requirement, meaning the
029design was created to a certain code level, the authorities having jurisdiction change that before occupancy, and we had to make a change to update to that code prior to occupancy. Also unusual. So to get to the bottom line of the question about the amount of contingency, currently before we go back and make final recommendations on soft costs, we are carrying a contingency of about $1.6 million. That would generally be used to cover omissions or unforeseen conditions. Typical standard of care for architects in new construction of the building is less than 2%. And typically when I see an architect that is established and and does a a good job at documentation, which Brelin does, I see much lower than 2% for that number. In fact, I can tell you at Lower Marian's project uh for their
030middle school, theirs was I I I'm feel like theirs was under a half a percent, but it was it was pretty low. So, we anticipate that you're not going to spend nearly 2%, but if you did spend as much as 2%, that on the $68 million um would be about 1.2 2 million leaving about 400,000 for unforeseen conditions really which can only linger in the site work. So when you start to analyze the contingency amount that way you start to see that this makes a lot of sense to have contingency in that neighborhood of 1.5 to $1.8 million. Sometimes school districts like to give themselves more contingency because they want to be able to make those discretionary changes. Clearly, that's not really what we were going for here, but that's partly because we've had such
031a thoughtful design process. So, I I tend to believe that this contingency was appropriate. We've discussed it internally as a project professional team and and all feel the same way. We are reviewing the soft costs and we also went back and looked at there was a category of work that was already bid. We and and when I say we I mean site logic we had a a number in the that one category um and it was it was duplicated. So, we had a a a wrong number and that's going to drop the overall cost of the project from what it was represented last time. I can tell you the process for this is that we will sit down and go through all of the soft costs with with the administration. So, for example, we will
032finalize what the costs for uh that we're carrying for financing are along with everything else that goes in soft costs. And I believe that if you accept the bids as presented tonight and by the time we've gone through and looked at all these soft calls, I think that the final budget for this will not be I think it's right now at like 76.35 million. I think it's going to be under $76 million with a goal that we would still spend less than that because we don't want to spend all of the money that we have in soft costs if it's better for that district to put that elsewhere. So, as a professional group, we we feel confident about how we set the contingency. we have an opportunity to modify that just a little bit as
033we talk about the final soft cost numbers. I I can tell you we wouldn't come back with any significant modification because we already feel comfortable about what it is. And just to reiterate, I think when the final budget is presented, if these bids are accepted tonight, you're going to see our budget will be something that starts 75 million and is in the higher range of that toward 76, but not over $76 million. >> Well, I know there's a board member up here who I think I heard an audible good from Miss Solomon. >> I'm writing down. >> I appreciate that. Um there may be some other questions about errors and omissions but the the one thing I wanted to pose it's more a question to the administration is only because it's was on my mind
034earlier today when we did the high school and Mr. Brereslin, I think, will remember this. We had a we had set up parameters for change orders and how our change orders were approved. I haven't heard talk of that for this project, although I fully support the idea. So, I'm assuming that's not an integral part of tonight's discussion. So, we had a we had a parameters with the high school that if there was a change order that was of a relatively small amount, it was approved administratively. If there was a next level up, it went to the chair of the FI facilities committee. I think the next level was the chair of the facilities and the board president and then the next level was the board and it was meant to strike that balance between efficiency
035but also trying to make sure that the board was well apprised of change orders and so I'm assuming we'll do something similar. We haven't you haven't set those parameters yet and it's not integral to tonight is what I am gleaning from the nodding of heads. >> Okay, great. >> That's correct. >> Super. Um, those are the um only questions I have about this tonight. Um, I really do I I really do appreciate the the deeper dive that you did this week in response to board requests. I would say, you know, I was a not quiet about that last week. So, I appreciate it. And also in response to some community emails that we received. So, thank you for that. So I just want to go back to um I guess you know the prior topic
036a little bit. So the um errors and emissions and unforeseen. So I always try to think of my world as right things that we can control and we can't control and hopefully wisdom to know the difference of course and the idea is that like I just wanted to reiterate what we talked about last week was that I feel in your words and I just wanted to confirm our biggest risk for unforeseen would be the geological survey and potentially finding like boulders and whatnot and therefore potentially changing you know the topography or the design or something like that. Um, so one, I just want to confirm that in the beginning when we starting to move earth and whatnot, that is perhaps our biggest risk from an unforeseen. Is that true? >> Yes. And that's what I
037said last week. That's exactly correct. >> Okay, great. So, so again, so the unforeseen things we can't control should be upfront. And so going back to change order, that's within our control. And so anything that you know scope creep or whatever then it's on us basically. So so that's so I just wanted to like kind of lay the groundwork and so hopefully the public would understand that as well. Uh secondly so the errors and emissions uh type of thing. Can you speak a little bit more to that in respects to like you know if something were to happen and maybe give examples that would be good of where it would be you know on us as a district something in an error or emission that we would be on the hook for as opposed to
038one of the contractors. So I just want to get a better distinction between the two. I >> I will um I'm going to use something that's that's a a bit basic for an omission. Sometimes when there is an interface between what is provided for the electrical feed to a component such as a motor or a piece of mechanical equipment, the electrical feed that's provided might not have the right voltage. It might not have the right phasing, etc. And if that's not done correctly, then either the piece of equipment has to change or the electrical feed has to change. In that case, as long as it wasn't built yet, the contractor will make a change that the school district will pay for that is an omission of the design. If that work had been installed and
039then we found out that it wasn't correct and would not work, that would be an error. And in that case, it is the the design professional's responsibility to pay for the cost of the original installation and the removal because the school district should not have to pay for that and the school district will pay for what they should have rightfully bought the first time. So you don't usually see a lot of errors. They happen but not usually. But you do see these omissions and sometimes they really can't be helped because the catalog and information that a designer had the day of bid changed when it when the equipment was bought. But generally those those omissions happen in in a manner like I described with the wrong type of electrical feed to a piece of equipment.
040Does does that make sense? >> Um yeah, I well thank you for that example. So again, you know, I always like to summarize things because I'm a simpleton sometimes. Uh but basically, if it's done to specifications, you know, it's and anything doesn't work, it's kind of on us. >> It's if it's done to specifications, it should work. >> Yeah. >> Yes. If it doesn't work and it's been installed, we have to figure out if there was an error. >> Okay? if it's if that we start to do coordination because what I want you to realize is there will be coordination that that occurs because in the case that I just gave you the information for the piece of equipment will have not only been shared uh by the mechanical contractor with the engineer for approval
041but the um the electrical contractor will also see it and there will be communication so that We do everything that we can do not to order the wrong thing or install the wrong thing, but to get it right before it's ordered and understood. So, there are controls in place to make sure that that is found early. We still have may have to make the change, but it won't get to a place where something was installed and has to be removed to the level of an error. So, you should own a building that can be deemed occupiable and that is effectively complete in design and use. That's what you bought. What what you may see in change orders for those omissions are these little places where there might be confusion in the drawings or there might
042be um some sort of gap because of something unusual or that there was just for some reason a gap in the scope. Those those pieces make up what generally are omissions and we have to finish buying that and that's why we have partially a project contingency to deal with that. The cost of doing a design perfectly is would be an ordinant in both dollars and time. So what we do is we try and in this case we had time we we did a lot of reviewing of the design so that we used the time that we were given to to really try and get the design right and we will continue to make sure that that's right even though we're on the verge of potentially awarding contracts. So, so we do our best upfront, but
043there's diminished returns and and that's why there is a standard of care that we pay for that has that little bit of potential issue because really designing something perfectly is is not the goal of the project team and shouldn't be the goal of these projects because of the nature of what we're doing and how quickly we have to do it. Miss Le uh thank you. Um I also want to thank our professional team and our administration um you know for their guidance you know especially as someone without any construction expertise and you know I think I can safely speak on behalf of the entire board you know for a lot of this we are relying um on our ex our hired experts um to help us gauge and assess you know responsibility and it is
044helpful that we do have for example the insurance companies they have the EMR are um that we have this form of statement of qualifications from the AIA. Um even with respect to you know gauging solveny that's a simple maybe not simple but that's still an objective financial assessment um and you know I I guess with respect to OSHA violations we are relying on you know those of you who have ample experience in this industry you know when when Mr. SPAR, you make statements like, "We did not find any surprises or an inordinate amount um or or nature of violations. You know, I'm kind of relying on you to tell me, you know, that there was nothing outside the norm for the industry and that it would be unreasonable to expect any of these um biders
045or contractors to have a complete clean sheet, right? Um after being in business for a certain number of years. So, I appreciate all of that. Um, but I do have a question about kind of my personal area of expertise, which is the law and litigation. Um, I guess it would be helpful for me if you could, um, confirm the level of litigation review that you conducted. So, um, with respect to any litigation history, lawsuits that have been filed against any of the contractors, what's the time period that you went back and looked at? obviously any pending lawsuits, but then you know how many years back did you look at? And then um did you actually have time to actually review detailed case, you know, facts and alleged, you know, complaints and did you actually have
046time to do that or were you just reviewing kind of the ultimate resolution or outcome of each of those lawsuits? The answer to that, and I might need to work backwards, and I will need to rely on Mr. Tac, so I'm warning him now. The answer working backwards is this. Um, we requested a divulge divulging of those lawsuits where a district was suing the contractor, the contractor was suing the district And in many of those cases that were recent because of our significant involvement in the construction community, we either were on the project where that happened so we could understand it in great detail or we were able to know it because we were able to find out enough detail about it because we're all familiar with what happens in in this business in in
047spite of the fact that we um are in a a large community around Philadelphia. Uh really the contracting community and and when it comes to these things is quite small and we understand where those problems are very quickly. I I will not tell you that we um contacted a lawyer and and looked into a case file per se. We we we don't go that far. We do understand the case. We do understand what caused it. And then we're able to understand what uh some of the issues could be and were they outside of a norm of what we would expect. And what we have seen h has not been outside of the norm of what we would expect. And um frankly since COVID we have seen an uptick in all sorts of things like that
048and we we still really aren't dealing with a bunch of contractors that I would say are latigious. These contractors um may like most contractors that do public bid. They they may be interested in obtaining change orders when something's not in their scope. But um I would not by a rule call any of the contractors that were working with latigious in my book. Not sure that I answered your entire question and if you'd like to revisit part of it, I'd be happy to do that. So I guess at the time period during which you looked at >> we look back uh we look back five years at at their uh the any pending lawsuits or any settled lawsuits in the last five years. Uh one of the contractors had several uh we were familiar with I
049think most if not all of those and understood the circumstances. One contractor had one. We were very familiar with that and understood it wasn't their uh their fault. I didn't we didn't see anything that was unsettling with any of them. >> Miss Solomon. >> Oh, so I'm going to take this conversation in a little bit different direction. Um, so I'm a as I have been since the start of this project, I'm really troubled with the cost of it. Um, and just for history that's long been discussed. Um, when we made the decision to do this, the estimates of this project were $25 million less or more than what we're currently looking at as um the the current bids. So the current bid total is 76 million 367,511. And so I just I I'm not I
050don't have expertise in construction. Um I just feel like that's an awful lot for an elementary school. And so, uh, I don't want to take anything away from the people that worked on this project because we have, I I'm convinced the best of the best working on this and I appreciate everybody's inputs and all the hard work. Um, so then I thought, I need to step back and rely on the community a little bit because I think this is a lot of money. I've been troubled by this vote for a long time. Um, and I have to say, correct me if I'm wrong, fellow board members, I don't think a single community member has come forward to say that they think that this is too much money for us to spend on elementary school. And
051in fact, there have been a couple of people who have come forward um over this time period and made suggestions that probably would have cost us more money um if we had in incorporated some of those ideas. So I have to believe that the community is in support of this project. I believe that this has been out there for what two years or more. Um, >> well, yes, but in this price range. I think it's been out >> for at least a year at this price range. And so I know Radner is a very astute community and people pay attention and people are not coming forward and saying, you know, we we think you're spending money frivolously or we don't want this. Nobody has said that. So I'm relying on that fact that I think
052the community supports this. And I do find this whole process really I I don't know how do I say this without sounding really snide but it seems to me that everybody looks at it as the Taj Mahal act limit and then kind of sneaks in just under that. And that aspect to it does kind of bother me still. But um as Mr. said this is the system that we're under. this is how it rolls. We have to take our lowest responsible bidder and they all know um what I guess the Taj Mahal numbers are and so that's sort of the system that we've set up in Pennsylvania. So um having said all that um I do have one request and maybe everyone does not agree with this but it would be my preference that in
053light of the fact that I'm just still really uncomfortable with this amount of money. I would request that we take most of the alternates um under the general contract um proposal and it would amount to not a huge amount but around 700 yes 700,000 savings. Um, and I think they're on here because they're possibilities and I know we have discussed them and there's reasons why these other things are better, but um, just to throw it out there, when we built Ratner Elementary School, now it's long time ago, but they the the board at that time was like, there's not going to be Terzo floors anywhere in this building. No way. Um, so it was a different point in time maybe, but as far as I know, the floors in Rad Elementary are just fine. So,
054um, just things like that like they're a matters of opinion and I don't know anything about construction, but that's just one example of something where there's a difference of opinion for people that do know something about construction. So it would be my request that we go with most of these alternates that could save us at least some money going into that. So having said that um you know this real this message is really for the community. You know I am sympathetic to people that hate that their school tax bill rolls in each year and it's an increase. I I'm very mindful of that. I'm mindful that families are under stress here. Um, and we're building, you know, this beautiful building um at a time of what I still consider extreme economic uncertainty. Uh, so but
055we're at a point in time we have to make a decision um to move forward. And so I will be supporting this. Um, I've struggled over this. Um, I am not comfortable with this. As I said, the community has not come forward to ask us to um do anything different and so um I have to believe that people support this. >> Can I Oh, go ahead. >> No, I um and I I want to tell you, Miss Solomon, when I'm ever I'm with a group of three or more taxpayers in Radner, I have mentioned to them that you are concerned about this and that they are welcome to come complain to the full board. they are welcome to email us and and a number of them have been people specifically who no longer have children
056in the district. So I wanted you to understand it's not just parents um and and they have said to me that building is old. It needs to be replaced. So I I I I haven't said it here publicly because I do genuinely believe what we're doing and I believe people will show up. But I have asked people individually, you know, if you if you have a problem, you need to come say something. And and the reality is look, I think we are good pretty good stewards of the taxpayers's money and we don't have Taj Mahals in Rner school district. We have not built anything. We we haven't and our buildings we keep them running for a long long time. It was a couple of years ago that the former principal at Ethan said to when
057I was on the facilities committee said to me, "So we have an interesting issue at Ethan today. Our toilets have all become bedays, you know, and in one bathroom, I think they were all spraying in the wrong direction. So, I mean, we've we've been working with sub subpar facilities for a while there, and we've done what we could, and at some point it becomes, you know, a losing investment because we can't just keep putting band-aids on that building. So, I do I do think what we're doing is the right thing. I also want to take the opportunity um to ask this question and I feel like you've answered it but um somebody mentioned financial stability. I wanted to make sure that each of these contractors has a reputation of paying their subcontractors on a time
058in a timely manner. >> My experience that the subcontractors that we're dealing with and I will look at Mr. barrens to tell us if he has a different experience that the that the prime contractors rather that we're dealing with do pay their subcontractors and vendors on time. There are times when I am aware that school districts, construction managers, and architects withhold money appropriately from prime contractors and the prime contractors then withhold money appropriately from the subcontractors that owe them work. I am not at all bothered by the the payment histories of the prime contractors that I have seen that are in front of us tonight and I'm not aware of anything that that would cause me to feel that way. >> Mr. Barren, do you have anything that's different to your knowledge than that? >>
059Good evening. No. Um I would concur Damian. Again, as you said earlier, both of our firms have been at work in the educational uh arena in in this area for decades. And so we do learn of the reputations of of these various contractors. Those here being presented tonight are not among those who have a reputation for not uh making timely payment. So, I just I want to I've been involved in projects where that was not the case and found out what I considered far too late that there were subcontractors from whom money was withheld inappropriately. And I I'm a corporate attorney. I get money gets held for good reasons all the time. So, I also know all those contractors are probably watching this meeting or will watch it at some point. And I want them
060all to understand that if it comes to our attention that they're not paying their subcontractors inappropriately on a timely basis, it will be noted by the board and I will not appreciate it. I'd like to add to to what you had to what you had to say there that we find out particularly the folks that we have on site our project manager Mike Crane and on-site construction manager Bill Minan we find out very quickly from subcontractors if there's a payment issue and if we find that out we will take that up with council and with the administration so that we can take the appropriate actions because we feel um that that's just as important as you do and I appreciate that you brought that up. >> So, um along Miss Dunn's um comments and I
061don't think that I don't think my question is going to disqualify any of the low bidders, but it is just a question that I wanted to pose out there. Um and it sounds like you've had a lot of experience with the with the bidders. Um, can you speak to the timeliness of their work in projects >> with the biders that we have, I have not witnessed any significant issues with those biders maintaining schedule with the bare exception of troubles that all contractors had during um the first couple years of the pandemic and that um followed based on equipment delivery. We don't have that situation here because we have a long period of time for procurement between when equipment is needed then uh when it will be ordered and I have not found um these contractors
062to have any uh labor issues in terms of not being able to supply labor subcontracted or on their own to finish the work. So construction is always a challenge. Construction schedules are always a challenge. But these contractors are are not habitual or any kind of recidivist contractors at poor poor performance for schedule. >> Um Lydia, I just wanted to circle back to what you shared um and just provide a couple of pieces. So, when we were talking about this last week and because you mentioned the comment about saving the 700,000, I think it was last week and um the and I appreciate it and I I want you to know that there's a big there's a big um loss for me in the project as it currently stands and I couldn't even convince us I
063couldn't even convince this team to put it in as an ad alternate which was the um retention basin. So the retention basin is not going to be what I would have preferred. Um I think I was vocal about that. I couldn't even convince these guys to put it in as an ad, but I said what if the bids come in under then could we then can we design the the have an ad alternate? And they had gone to design development and planning commission with it the way that it's designed. Um, and so I'm I I'm saying that that in the spirit of there's something I really wanted that didn't that I'm not getting and it and it saved us money. And what I would what I would say to you is because I looked at
064the prime the general contractor and the $700,000 predominantly is is derived from a substitution of the terratzo floor for this high density whatever whatever HDT stands for high density tile maybe or something like that. Um >> I I think I opened the door last week to this conversation. I didn't I didn't hear an appetite on the board to make that substitution. I but I did hear that request last week from you. What I would say about it is I I think that we have to balance that $700,000 savings which would be you know.1% of the project and say Toraso is a longerlasting product and that savings would be offset by having to replace the highdensity tile sooner in a lifespan. So, I don't even think it would be the 700,000. Um, I'd much rather see
065and I was happy to hear that the team, the professional team is going to be sharpening their pencil on the sharp costs on the on the soft co costs and that maybe we'll and and I know I heard the audible cheer from you and I know you were happy to hear that and I just really want to acknowledge you. I know how much you have struggled with the cost. when we when we did the feasibility study, when we approved it in 2022, I took a quick look back. Um, this option was $57 million. So, it has gone up $20 million. It wasn't it was never actually I don't think it was ever a $50 million school, but um it was pretty quickly 50 57. So, I do want to acknowledge and I've struggled with that
066as well, you know, and and related to the site costs. I just I really want you to know that I I acknowledge where you've come and how you've you've brought yourself to a place of having listened to the community who is not objecting to this school. I know I understand that and we can still internally struggle. Um I just didn't hear an appetite last week that the board wants to start talking about the alternates. Um so I'm happy to hear there's there's we're anticipating a cost savings on the soft side. Um, I hope as we continue to finance that we will continue to see that on the finance committee when the team comes to us for their next round of borrowing and that we're able to recoup some further savings at at that point as
067as well. I mean, that will be that's all happy news for the for the taxpayers. Um, I also want to let you know I did a quick Google. There is in Delaware County, there is a proposal for a K1 center in another school district that at this point in time, and by the way, they have not gone to land development yet. I happen to know that because I sat with a board member in the schoolboard training last week, that K1 center is estimated right now to be 78 to $85 million. It is unfortunately the cost of construction. Mr. Pauling and I are going to we're going to be having a conversation this week with the chair of the education committee about act one about act 34 and about this this conversation mostly it's about act
06834 but and and I'm actually hoping to propose I would consider it a real win if they would adjust act 34 and recognize the extreme cost of construction in southeast PA. I don't actually see a world in which Act 34 is going to be repealed. But there may be ways that we can help offset how incredibly expensive it is to do construction in southeastern PA as evidenced by my quick Google search on what this K1 center is going to cost. So I feel your pain. We are not alone in how expensive it is to build right now. >> Hold on. I So I have a different take on the Act 38 >> 34. >> Act 34. I am appreciative of it. I think without it these bids would be astronomical. I just find it and
069I said this I mean it sounds a bit snide but I just find it really interesting that the bids come in just below that. >> Well that's >> so I actually would like to see it lowered. That's part of the bid coming lower. But >> Lydia, I think that's a function of the open bid which is public and that's what we should be. What's interesting at the end of the day, we can't spend more than we can raise with act one with act 34. We could have spent more money on this school. We just would have had to go to referendum and that's the same mechanism that exists under act one. That's my only point. No, but that's my that's my point. There are other mechanisms. We don't have to get down that tonight. I
070wanted to acknowledge where you've come in terms of this vote tonight and tell you there will be a piece that you wish we could have done differently. There's a piece I wish there's actually a big piece I wish we could have done differently, but this is where we are and I support the project as well. >> So, thank you. I I appreciate you um expressing, you know, that sentiment. I I'll tell you that I one of the other reasons I still struggle with this is that then part of me thinks well maybe the community is entrusting us to do that that they they think oh these this is a very competent board and so maybe they're trusting us to tow the line on this and that's why people aren't coming forward. I mean that's the
071other you just you don't know but again the voices haven't been raised. So, >> how was last week's meeting? Did they come? >> No. I think our community has proven to be pretty outspoken when they need to be. So, yeah, I'm not I'm not too worried that they're holding back because they just trust us. Um um so I humble opinion, but um um so um do we have any Mr. Le? >> Yeah. So, I just wanted to uh just make some comments. >> Yeah. >> I think everybody in this room wish that the school were like a Costco hot dog. It's a buck 50 for like how long now? But unfortunately we're not Costco. Um other comments is that I would not necessarily interpret like quietness from our community as acquiescence. There's a big difference.
072Um I think it's a number that people find a lot of trouble getting their head around. Just like what is $ 38 trillion? >> Wow. >> For example. So, it it's funny. That's all. Uh, another comment is um I feel for you since I'm still new and but you you like the people who've been here are anchored, you know, psychologically to that 57 million number. And unfortunately, you know, it it's a real psychological phenomenon. It's just anchoring and it kind of like gets you to that spot and it's kind of hard to kind of like move away from that. Um, at the end of the day, you know, being the freshest board member, um, if you will, or the newest one, um, the number Yeah, I didn't mean that in the porative term. >> You
073got a new nickname, >> but just trying to live things up a little bit. Yeah, there you go. Um, but like the whole point is like, you know, we we we had a fair process. We had an open bid. We had lots of biders. I mean, the price is what it is. And you know, if we somehow defer this, I don't think it's going to go down. So, you know, again, I for one will be voting for this as well because I just don't think like, you know, we can wait any longer. And basically, we've had to bite the bullet. And I think over the last several years through I Finance, we've been able to build a bank in preparation for this and that's helped a lot so that we can avoid this whole referendum
074thing. >> So, I just wanted to add some perspective on things. Thank you, >> Miss L. >> Sorry, I just want to add on to that because that's a great point. Um because we're not considering this gargantuan number in a vacuum, right? I mean, I want to commend the work of Mr. Pauling and his department, right? I mean, for the past year or two in his budget presentations, I mean, he has game this out for the next five years. And we understand fully. I mean, I know we can't predict the future, but we've taken into account both act one and act 34. And we know and taxpayers know what to expect in the coming years if we do this, if we go forward, right? And I think we all looked at it and yes, it
075gave some of us a lot more agit than others, but we understand the potential impact. And I think ultimately when we, you know, because we've taken a lot of votes to lead us to this point, it's also not the first big vote that we've taken on this. When we approved those budgets, right? each time we approved those budgets, every time we approved this step of the process, um we understood the potential financial impact and you know and I think we ultimately came to the con conclusion that it was something we could bear that our district is privileged and lucky enough to be able to bear. So you know I just want to remind all the work that we've done on the financial front so that it's not going to be a shock, right? We know
076fully what to expect. Um, and we're lucky. We're just so lucky to be even in that position, um, to be able to make a decision like this. So, I just wanted to reiterate that. >> Well, I appreciate all your comments and you're so thor the thoroughess of this board, the questions, the thorough the the responsiveness of the team. I um I definitely share what Mr. Stern said is that you know this process can be frustrating about what we cannot control but what we can control is the process and the team we've assembled and in that I think that I have a lot of confidence um and I think this board has expressed confidence in you in the pro and you know um Mr. Spar you said thoughtful the thoughtful process um I mean there was
077uh an Ian community meeting last week and we had a a few people in the community come out and Yeah. So, it was nice and um there was one slide that really struck me and I sure we'll see it again, but it was the the line of all to to Miss Lao's point of all the meetings we had and then there's big dots on like the critical decision points of the board and it was over the past probably two years, right? And um so this was not to your point made in a vacuum. was a very deliberate process and and you know I remember back when we had a slight delay one of the benefits that I think you said Mr. spar was that we were going to pour more energy into those construction documents
078and the more time and detail to those construction documents the more you know confident we'd have in the bid right and the ultimate you know what we got and and I think you know we saw this process bear fruit with that right like so um I know none of us takes this lightly I mean $76 million right I mean none of us so I but I do think the I the pieces this is the process that we were able to control. We've done our due diligence. So, um I with that I'd like to um reiterate the recommended action that the board accepts and awards bids including recommended alternates as listed on the agenda for the construction of the new Ethan Elementary School and directs the administration professionals and councils to proceed with processing contracts for
079each prime contractor to its full execution. that. All in favor? All opposed? This passes 90. Way to go. Congratulations. Congratulations. >> Yes. >> And you know, one other thing I want to say the other because I was thinking the other things we can control is the team we put in place. And something that is also um you know, and Mr. Wagner and your team at Ethan are certainly critical to that as well. the admin the school um administration and um I think one of the benefits too of that preconstruction like what we approved before is that it's my understanding that same person that was on site is going to continue this project right so they know the site right so um so I think just please you know what I've asked please keep communicating with
080us you know like no surprises we like no surprises right so um with that we will move on to board announcements Um, February 10th, we will have a 4:30 curriculum meeting, a 5:00 pm finance, 6 pm policy, and 7 p.m. facilities, and then we will have our regular business meeting on Tuesday, February 24th. With that, I'd like a motion to adjourn. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Meeting adjourned. >> Congratulations. That's amazing. Well, I'm glad a 9 o.