001Good evening. Welcome to the November work session of the Rose Tree Media School Board. The school board holds monthly work sessions to carry out its responsibilities in public as dictated by the Sunshine Law. At these meetings, the board's standing committees conduct the work of the board through discussion with the administration. We welcome the public to these meetings and depending on the length of the agenda may be able to entertain public comment. If we're not able to address comments, we encourage emails to either committee chairs or the administration. As a reminder to where our conversation should focus, the students are the center of the RTMSD learning community. Our mission states that all students will reach their intellectual, emotional, social, and physical potential in a safe environment that celebrates diversity, individual talents and efforts, and promotes collaboration,
002caring, respect, and leadership. Students will be wellprepared to create meaningful and productive lives in a global society. Uh we will begin with a presentation um on synthetic turf for the athletic fields. Dr. Malash. >> Thank you Dr. Napson Williams. I'm excited to welcome our colleague Hugh from ELA Sport. Uh some of you may remember you met Hugh last year when we were doing the uh comprehensive study of the athletic fields in the district. Um Hugh is working both with ICS and with the district uh on a number of different field projects and we asked him to come this evening to talk specifically um about synthetic turf fields. Um what the materials are, what the challenges are, what materials can be used. Uh I know the board as we've talked about has questions uh and he
003Hugh is here to deliver a presentation for us um and have some discussion. We will take notes on questions that may came come up just in case he does not have the answers this evening. Uh and we'll move on from there. All right. All right. H Let me just get this situated. >> Okay. >> You should just go back. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Uh hello everybody. I think you know I understand there's some new board members. Congratulations uh on that. Uh I've never been on a school board but I've been in a lot of other boards. Sometimes I wonder why I do it but it's for the love of it. So any so [gasps] um okay uh yeah we uh presented earlier this year um last year we had done a study for the district
004particularly on the high school and well as Springton and as well as Indian ele lake elementary school and I was asked to come tonight before you to kind of make a presentation on uh on turf. Uh so to give you a quick look background of of some of those who haven't seen me before, I'm a landscape architect by profession uh graduated back in Penn State in 1983. Uh been sports specific for about 20 25 years. Prior to that I did a sunundry other projects, schools, institutions, residential and things like that. But for years we were doing school work and with every school usually came athletic fields and uh we just you know as a landscape architects decided to focus on that uh that line of work. I myself uh have spent probably 20 25 years
005of youth sport coaching 20 of those in middle school and high school. Um and we always say remember everybody's kid is a division one prospect. So when it comes to uh athletic fields, you know, I've seen it from the coaching perspective, I've seen it from the parent perspective, uh and I've also seen it from the designer perspective. So I I kind of been on all sides of the fence. So outline the topics tonight, I have you see up here basically a turf carpet overview, the different systems, the different infill systems, the field injury history and and maintenance best practices and also costs. So, next please. Turf carpet types. There's several available. Um, pretty much all of them. They are essentially a carpet. Uh, there have a backing uh and they have a secondary backing which
006attaches the fibers to the primary backing. And there most are an infill system which consists of a variety of types. uh the the SPR rubber and other things alternated fills which you'll see when we go further into this. Some some have a shock pad, some do not or and like I said a combination of both. Usually the the fibers are pro polyropylene. Other types are used but for the most part it's polyropylene. The types there's essentially three [snorts] types. The tape which is a slit film which is the oldest one uh is a fiber and you'll see in pictures a little further in what's it's designed to actually kind of break apart and help maintain and contain the infill uh infill that's placed into the field. The monofilament fibers which were kind of the next
007generation of fibers which were more created to look like look like actually like grass. there will be a single blade. Uh and then a a combination hybrid which is a combination of both. Uh often too there are thatch systems. Now thatch systems is the same as you'd have with a grass field where you have the thatch it's it's kind of a I'm trying to correlate it as I want to say a mangle of different fibers, but kind of a u you know it's it's in the thatch area and what that does is is contain the infill better. uh and it's a dense sub layer that holds it in place. Normally the pile heights are 2 in for non- football fields. There are some football fields that can be 2 in uh depending upon if there's
008a pad or not. And then most uh football, rugby, etc. often are two two and a quarter. Um there are variations that exist. I have seen uh projects where it's an inch and a half high pile uh which is uh more like a field hockey type pile if you know field hockey is you know each sport has a different different need and within when it comes to their synthetic turf. Uh so often when you'll see in in schools will be either two or two uh two and a/4 in with you know your infill and if so desired a u a pad underneath. So next please. So as I said this this is kind of just a pictures of different types of of synthetic turf. The slit film you can see like I said it spllays
009apart there. Uh so it the intent is uh to uh uh contain the infill. Those that type system is often used on heavily used facilities because it's more durable. The monofilament fiber is has shown particularly in when it's nothing but a monofilament field has shown a tendency not to be as durable as slit film. uh because what will happen one thing the one one misnomer with synthetic turf fields is they're maintenance free. They are not maintenancefree. You do not need to invest the amount of time and money uh into maintain them as you do a grass field. But you have to drag the field level off the infill. Watch out for your what they call the hot spots which are gold mouths faceoff circles and the like where it's no different than like um you
010know taking care of a baseball infield which I had done for years where you have the five gallon bucket of infield mix. You go out make sure the hot spots you check them you put some put some infill in that way because the infill keeps the fibers upright. What often has happened with the with the monofilament type uh fields um we just there's a local school here where I I went and and visited it. It the infill had pretty much to the point where the fibers all like this and the fibers are not made to withstand wear on the side. Um so what ends up happening that wears out quicker. So you're, you know, where you normally get, you have a warranty, standard industry warranty of 8 years, and if a field's properly maintained, you
011can get 12 out of it. These fields, they get to eight years, maybe nine years, and that's they need to be replaced. So we usually recommend uh uh not to go with monofilament. You'll see like on an NFL facility, if it's a if it's a synthetic turf, nine chances out of 10 it's going to be monofilament. One of the big reasons is it looks better on camera, which isn't high priority in high school. Um, you know, so, and then the hybrid fiber is, you know, both are are uh or weaved into the backing. Uh, and, uh, then you kind of have a combination of both. The the slit film helps keep the the infill in, also helps support the the amount of filament. Okay. Next, please. >> [sighs and gasps] >> infill systems. There's a
012there's a variety of infill systems. Uh the most common is your recycled rubber tire and sand at various ratios depending upon if it's a excuse me a ball sport type field, you may have be a little firmer. If it's a football, you may have a little bit more rubber. Um and for those for these fields that is the primary that's the primary uh shock attenuation uh feature. uh these are normally they are designed to meet the ASM standards uh uh that are in place which is is a standard American society of testing materials um which is a and they have a number what's what's called Gmax which is shock attenuation um you they drop a they they drop a cylinder onto the onto the turf you could and so what that number is supposed to
013be is 200 or under industries trying to lean it more to a lower number to like 165. All the specifications we have on projects is that it cannot exceed 165 for the life uh life of the turf. Now the other systems the EPDM SPR coated SPR uh and thermoplastics inorganic materials like coated silic sand are used but not that often. There are natural materials cork coke, coconut fi fiber which coconut fiber actually requires irrigation. Uh soft wood or nutshells etc. can also be used. Next please. The ambient uh two there's two different types of SPR rubber. The ambient rubber and cryogenic rubber. The ambient rubber is essentially, you know, uh they get tires uh and other uh SPR material and they they break it up at with ambient temperature. They don't freeze it or anything
014like that. Uh and so you get more of an angular break with with everything that's mostly used u with sand. There are um there are you know 100% uh ambient SPR fields do those sand not off not often you see that because it actually is very spongy and um it actually fatigues the student athletes much quicker. So you'd normally see a system with the sand like you see there like a sand ballast and then the infill. The cryogenic rubber is the cleanest form of it. It's basically they grind them up uh they're frozen and then shattered. Uh so it's a little smoother. Uh those prices for that when you compare again I have these 90,000 uh square foot comparisons uh just for rough rough numbers. the increase in price is approximately $60,000. You do you
015do not need a pad um because normally the infill uh infill should should achieve GMAX uh and you can reuse it as as well as with the SPR rubber. Now let and to step back too I probably jumped over a little bit. Uh the pad system on fields uh there are what they call a shock attenuation pad. It's no different really than what you have at home with the carpet. Um, and what that does is that is it's then itself like you'd see the days when back in the vet uh that where they would have horrendous turf, but the shock attenuation was handled through the pad. Uh, that was was on on on the surface when and so that was the first generation of of turf fields. And then when they came to the second
016generation it was these infilled system infilled systems uh some of them depending upon uh depending upon the height of the of the uh fiber they would need a pad or may not need a pad. Uh the pads the pads are really what they kind of a belt and suspenders thing in the sense that you know if you know properly constructed in most all these fields can handle your GMAX concerns. The pad also will further uh further uh uh make sure to make sure you you have a you will better maintain the Gmax and probably would be a lower Gmax reading uh on it. So again from shock attenuation standpoint the lower the reading the better the better uh it is for the for the athlete. Uh and the biggest concern is often when when with
017these with the pads uh if budget if there's budgetary restraints cuz on average on average a pad for like a football field like the stadium maybe is like $120,000 ad. Now the thing with the pads they they at a minimum will last two cycles. So you could you could put a field in, take the field out, keep the pad in there, and put in another uh turf system. So it's kind of spread out through the the the life of the two. Uh and for years, they've been trying to take a look at an analysis of why the pads, how why when this field has a pad, they seem to have a better tendency to, again, assuming proper maintenance, they're a little more durable. Well, I kind of think when I buy a carpet at my
018house, I want to get the best thickest pad possible. And so there's there's a correlation with that absorbing the shock and everything else. So, uh there is a that's kind of a that's definitely a correlation. So, uh next, please. Can >> I just ask a clarifying question? So, you're using 90,000 square feet. Is that um the size of the new multi-use field we're talking >> Oh, no. That's like the size that's like the stadium. Like a stadium. >> So, that's the size of the size of a stadium. Yeah. So, >> and then when you say can be reused or what are we talking about? >> Okay. Um, yeah. What what hap what happens there is you can recycle um >> what do you infill >> the infill you can recycle the infill. You never get
019just because of migration and stuff. You'll never get the full amount. So, you'll always have to supplement it. So, um the savings often isn't tremendous. Uh depend it often depends on the vendor. Uh I think recently we've when when we had an audited to recycle uh recycle material uh I think it was you basically saved like $50,000 you know which is you know it's money but it's not it's not like you can you won't be able to take everything out and put it in the new uh uh as it goes. So, and sometimes too if you have field A is done by so and so and then the field B comes in uh manufacturer B comes in they won't use they won't won't use the infill because it's not there what they normally use. So
020that's a case by case basis. >> So the reuse is when you're um redoing the field because its lifespan is over. You're then that is the reuse. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Uh the ambient uh Oh, okay. Next. I guess >> can I ask you a question about these two? >> Yeah. >> Um what would be the So you say the additional cost is $60,000. What's the overall cost of the infill? Like is that twice as much? Is that a third? >> No, it's like and I actually have a chart a little bit further down to kind of show >> components. >> Yeah. and talking to vendors, it's it's so it's so difficult when it comes to an actual like because there's so many factors with the field, but a good base number would be like
021per square foot cost would be like $5 for like a standard system. And that is really averaging things out. That's there's don't, you know, that's because there's so many variables. The amount of lines you have in the field, the size of the field, all that stuff. So if you go with that basis, you know, so uh I don't have calculator on me, but basically you you'll add 60,000 to that base $5 a square foot cost, right? Just to you know, so whatever. >> I'm just trying to figure out does that 5,000 60,000 divided by 90,000 square feet is 67 cents. >> Well, I actually have I actually I have a chart here to to compare it. So >> is there any difference? I mean, I understand that it's cleaner. Is it more durable or anything?
022>> Yeah, it great. >> It does. It does appear to be more durable. The thing with cryogenic, it's not as commonly made as the others. So, that's why the price is a little bit higher. And there is a manufacturer that kind of quarters the market on the cryogenic. Um, it is available. >> Okay. >> But they they kind of quarter the market on it. So, um, but so, okay. Uh next EPDM in uh which is a polymer which is a polymer uh uh that's actually manufactured rubber. Uh what that is and we actually used it recently on a project uh where instead of recycled tires what it is it's all fall from some type of manufacturing process like making gaskets or you know and it's the trim when you they trim off it's then it's
023then uh ground up and processed uh processed that way. Um it's the there's additional cost for that. Again you don't need a pad. is very much like like your your base system and you can reuse it. Your TPE is a is a is actually plastic and that that's kind of a that system. What's the most notable with that system is you can see with TPE you can make it you you can make it any color. Often what you'll see with TPE it'll be green. With the green that means it'll it's better with the with the heat reduction. Uh but it is it is expensive. Uh so and uh so okay next please. >> You said it but I just want to make sure I I caught it. You said TPE is cooler, right? Like >>
024Yeah. When it's when it's when it's made into color green. Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. That Yeah. >> Okay. Next, please. Organic infill. uh made from natural materials. Uh it's popular choice in certain areas of the country mo mostly down south. Um uh it's depending on what system you go with it's it's absorb it absorbs uh water locks in water. The issue we've seen in the northeast is uh when it freezes and makes a makes a field unplayable during the winter months. Um, so there has actually been cases where uh, and this does normally is not at the high school level, but like you'll see like early season lacrosse games that are, you know, in the snow and they they will plow the snow. Well, they plow the snow then it rips up the turf. Uh,
025even though they're doing methods that should be quote unquote safe for plowing turf. Uh, one college in Connecticut had it happened two years in a row that they just removed it because, you know, the the the lacrosse teams couldn't practice in the winter. Um, so, uh, but it is used around here. Um, the union have have a field. Uh, Westtown School has a field. Uh, the, uh, and it depends on what type of organic you want. Co costs very little bit. Um, but you'll have to supplement it over the years. Uh, you can see probably every three years on average about $15,000 to refill. Uh, I have seen when it's you see cork fields uh used uh they float. Um, I'll never forget uh I was all excited to go down to Ocean City, New
026Jersey. Well, I was going to see my in-laws, but so I wasn't excited about that, but I was excited about the fact they had this brand new field with cork infill, and I wanted to see what it looked like. And I got down there and it had rained earlier in the week. It looked like someone had brought top soil in and top dressed it. It all floated up to the sur all floated up to the surface. So, they had to go in, they had to rake it back down, and they had extra extra maintenance to do. And any heavy storm, which like down to the shore you have, it floats up again. So then once it floats up, you technically really shouldn't be using the field. You got to get out there, drag it, maintain
027it. So um but there are other systems that don't float as don't don't float as much. The cork is one does float. There's other systems made out of corn cobs. There's other systems made out of uh wood that they also don't have a tendency to float, but they all absorb. Uh so that's the one concern up in the in the northeast. So, is are there some organic infills that are either less absorbent or don't freeze to the same extent or >> they they've tried there's been so many attempts over the years of like shells >> and stuff. And uh I don't know how you make a crack shell soft. That's that's the issue. >> Um it's you need to have some give to it. And when the give introduces air, there begets the issue. you
028got air, it's going to fill with water. Um, that's that's the problem. >> Whereas with sand, it's just tiny little particles. >> It's solid. >> Yeah. So, >> coated rubber infill uh is one of the most rare, but it can be done. Um, uh, it's it's it's not common to get, but in that cases, it's basically SPR, but it's covered. It's covered with a a certain product. um could be what you know what I what you I have there uh you'll see that on some fields um again since it's SPR uh SPR again you know it can be reused uh you don't need a pad for that organics you do need a pad and the last one uh that is out there and not all that common next please is a coated silica sand uh
029this is this a sand that are is coated with with a uh um a coating that essentially usually acrylic or you know less Americ's sand in it. It's just filled with this. It's green therefore temperature- wise it's better. But uh yeah, again you'll have to you'll have to need you'll have to have a pad with that. Um, I've only seen one of these fields uh in use. It was at a college up our way. Uh was, you know, F&M and um a lot of people didn't like it because it was just the feel of it that all the GMAX was uh with the with the turf with the pad underneath and just from a, you know, feel under under cleat. Uh it just didn't because it's it's sand. It's kind of roundish. Um, so that
030really wasn't a, you know, wasn't wellliked the field. So, next, please. >> Could you, oh, we're going to do new cost, but could you talk a little bit about the pads and the injury attenuation that pads provide? Because I talked to there was one presenter at PSBA conference who talked about how pads really make a difference between re meeting standards for concussion versus uh, leg injury. Well, I Yeah. And um the the shock pads shock pads are solely for a shock attenuation. The different types of pads um you like a like for like in your garage if you go get like a thick rubber pad like that. >> That's one type of pad. Um other pads they have out there is a uh uh manufacturer's name is Brock. for lack of better description, it looks
031like plastic cardboard, corrugated cardboard. >> When you look at it, it's like u but um it's actually probably one of the longest uh manufactured pads that that are out there. >> Um and then years ago, they used to do a a ported place system, which is some if you ever been on a playground, you know, ported place playground. >> Um problem with those problem with those was number one cost. Number two, often when you put a field in, you use glue and so when you go to replace it, you go to take the turf up, it damages it damages the pad. I have I have never seen any study or any mention of correlation of pad with uh lower extremity injuries because the pad really has nothing to do with the grip or whatnot. >>
032Well, concussion. >> Concussion wise. Concussion wise, oh, it's it's a it's a belt and suspenders. I mean, you will have a guaranteed lower GMAX depending on the pad you you pick if you have a pad with with a a rubber infill system. It's just it's and it's really for, you know, the safety of the students. You got to have you just got to have to watch out with your ratios because if the field is too gets soft, which it really shouldn't with a 2 inch, it's very fatiguing. uh you'll notice you you in like a brand new field and you walk around just kind of like you know and then because it doesn't give the it doesn't give the the energy back to the student uh and it's their you know the knees start to
033hurt the hips start to hurt um and things like that. So >> if it's an older field you're saying start to hurt >> if it's No, it's a if it's a new really soft field. >> Oh, I see. >> Yeah, brand new field. So you got to make sure that spongy. Yeah, it's I just visit >> there's a really spongy pad underneath. >> Yeah, I was on one two weeks ago and it was it is 10 years old and you could like you sit there like you it's like how do people even play on this? And they've had they have they have had a lot of injuries on that field and you know lower extremity injuries and it's likely due to the the the the softness of the field. >> It just they just doesn't
034you know it doesn't feel natural. So, uh, I took I took the all the all the paragraphs and kind of did a very, you know, just a sort of a, you know, quick comparison. Uh, again, like I said, I mean, very ballparky $5 a square foot uh, base price uh, for the your SPR. Then you add you add those accordingly. Uh, as you see here, the the SPR rubber sand mix is most common, least expensive. you know, you don't require additional I mean, you don't require additional maintenance. You have you do require maintenance, but you don't really require additional maintenance. Um, uh, shock pad, you don't need it. Um, but it it's it's good to have one. Uh, then like your coated rubber infill, it's really SPR, just it has a coating to it. Um,
035it would be used with sand and it could have if green, there could be a heat reduction in it. Uh heat reductions depending upon the material could if you if it's a green infill could be um depending again on the material could be 20 to 20 to 40 degrees u lower. Uh the and yes I mean fields can get to be awful hot um speak from experience. Um but the thing is often too it's like with those those dates where those times where you have those issues are also times there's heat protocols set up with the PIAA uh you know many a time we've had power football practices in August either canled or just limited to helmets and shorts and that's it. So u you know that's the thing living in the northeast I mean
036there's protocols in place to protect the kids. Um so if the times come where there's something that hot uh then uh you know that something it really has to be a scheduling issue uh to deal with it but uh the heat reduction also uh you know is is like 20 to 40 degrees depending on the material. A cork infill uh the heat you do have heat reduction with organics. It looks like natural soil. You know you're top dressing every three it's in red. It's it's it's a con pad. you know, you have you have to have a pad if you if you're up in the air and it freezes in the winter. EPDM, um, it's close to SPR, but there's a limited supply because that's manufactured and your cost is up. TPE, uh, heat reduction
037if green, good, you know, it's good performance characteristics and cost. You don't really see a lot of TPE fields, um, because of cost. Uh it's just you know if you know a less less expensive alternate would be look usually uh chosen and the coated sand which I talked about um uh not SPR uh rubber expensive and and it has a tendency to compact uh I mean it it compacts and you always that's the thing with all the fields you always want to make sure no matter what the infill is is that they will naturally compact over time through usage. weather uh and you want to make sure that you have maintenance programs in place uh um uh for them to make sure I mean you'll have your the school will have its own program but
038often you may wish to have uh have a contracted organization come in that could do deeper uh deeper cleaning which I could show I think next slide please. >> I actually ask a question. Thank you. Um I am reading that the EPDM um is a really reasonable option when we're considering safety of users either um because of heat or physical injury. Could that be done with a pad? >> And additionally um even though it says it's not necessary, would it still be a good idea for the safety of students to do that with a pad? And I understand that it's a limited supply, but what does that mean for us if that's what we chose? >> Like how limited? >> How limited? Like how long would it take us to get our fields done if
039that's what we chose? >> The the situ the situation with the school we had uh I I would have to get back to you on that because there was a delay in it because essentially where the the facility that made this was waiting for enough allfall to create, you know, uh to create the uh the infill. This was a situation where a field was constructed and um the infill the infill used was the standard SPR and sand and um the manufacturer the supplier of the infill who is the largest in the industry apparently did not they hired it they had a new new plant that plant apparently the QA QC was not up to snuff and there was metal particulate in or they call it metal uh and that was totally removed and replaced and
040the school said we're not taking chances. We're going with EPDM. though. Um, but I I would have to get back to find out on that. But yeah, I mean and you know when it when it was applied uh that was our first EPDM field it you know it look felt it's it's rubber it's you know and it's it's kind of a very you know you know the you all the all from construction and stuff or manufacturing not construction manufacturing of of of things that's a that's a proactive use of it. I mean, some of them do make it specifically for it, but the ones that we've seen for the most part are use all fall and stuff for processing. >> Um, what I'm reading is that it doesn't carry the same chemical contamination risk of
041recycled tire chrome rubber. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. And there there because it's it's, you know, recycled. It's not a recycled material, you know. Who knows where this recycled material came from? um you know that it's a manufactured uh uh rubber. So yes, >> can I ask the follow on to that because I Kelly or Heather, you were getting at that. Um they don't have any idea. They don't tell us what the industries are that they collect all of these. >> Yeah. No, they're sources. You you there you can get sources for the most part. It's it's it's tires. They will say now that the recycled the >> the the manufactured >> Yeah. EDM. >> Oh, EPDM. Oh, yeah. No, that you they can. Yeah, [clears throat] they >> But it's it's stuff that's
042left. But do we know what industry? I mean, like I'm thinking there's a ton of medical grade elastimemer waste in this. Uh >> oh, this No, these are this is they're making like they're making a gasket for an engine. They're making a gasket for for a refrigerator part. They're making th this is they're making gaskets. They're it's not like they're recycling gaskets. They're making it when they trim it. There's an all fall from it. Yeah. >> And that all fall the remnant is used and processed. >> There's a lot of I'm just asking the question like there's a lot of elastimemers that are made for vials and you know the vials the stoppers in the vials and the plungers at the end of a syringe and things like that. There's tons and tons of waste.
043And so I was curious because that's all medical grade and filed with the FDA and tested. It's not toxic to humans, etc. >> Oh yeah. >> So I'm wondering is that one of the components because you know they stamp little brown things out on big square sheets and it's a huge amount of waste and I know it goes somewhere but I'm wondering does it go to any of this? I yeah I I would have to check I would have to check that because again I mean this pro this um you know this is there's not a common it's not a common uh source but it it is offered out there. So but yeah I would have to check with them >> about the coated rubber. Um, does that qu, you know, sequester the pollutants from
044the recycled rubber or is it just a coating that wears off and you end up designed it's it's designed to stay coated. It's the it's the it's the seal. It it essentially was one of the early responses to the concern because years ago years ago uh we used to call it the wild west when uh infill fields were uh were uh just coming out. There was as with any industry there was no real control and things were getting imported from China from overseas you know and ground up and and you know it it was just it was a mess and uh since then I mean as we're talking 20 years ago they have tightened things up into the industry particularly with you know all the concern that's out there with it um that uh they
045they have have you know tightened up their their ship with this with the with the processing of it. Um this thing this incident we had um with this other school was was bizarre. um you know that that happened um and uh and actually it's a we ended up having to write a specification uh for medal um that actually this week the the sports builders convention we're member of the America Sportsbuilders convention they have an ASM committee and last year I went up to them I'm like okay guys why don't we have why aren't isn't there a standard for metal and you have a standard for metal in wood mulch for playgrounds why not on synthetic fields and the response was like good question so usually because the thought was in the industry it was better
046monitored well you know now that was a that was like an isolated incident I've talked to other people and usually when you have when you have uh infiltration of tra metal it's because when they go deep cleaning these fields If you ever see a picture of what they pull out, it's like my girl, my girls, my two daughters, I think they never wear bobby pins. I have never seen so many bobby pins coming out of fields in my life. They'll pull bobby pins out, uh like um uh uh uh cleats, um paper clips, uh pieces of glasses, uh pencils, you know, things like that, which could really be dangerous. So, um >> I I did want to I mean I have thoughts on this anyway, but you're you're zeroing in on it. Is the most
047common and least expensive? Is is the only reason why it's the most common is because it's the least expensive. I mean, are there any pros that I can >> Yeah, there no there are other and I I've actually I I have asked the manufacturers for samples of other of their infill uh because talking with staff and stuff that was one thing that you know they were talking about looking at was to be samples of of other you know other infill types. Um, now like with the Philadelphia Union, they have the top of the top of the top. So that's, you know, uh, but like Westtown, Westtown School, uh, I think they have the they have that one like the corn cob type, which is the organic, >> right? What I'm trying to say is like
048for the SPR recycled and you have is the most common and least expensive. Are there any >> is the only reason why it's the most common is because it's the least expensive because everything else, you know, you've mentioned >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. things. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Understanding as far as safety. >> Yeah. Like New York City. >> New York City will not do anything but coated sand >> and that's the you know not the most expensive but not far from being the most expensive. Um so yeah it is by far because of the price. Yeah. Are the um the shock pads the reason that additional maintenance is required or is it just that those options all happen to need additional maintenance? Like if we were to go with
049the SVR recycled for example the P you have when it comes to when it comes to any type of organic u the TPE the coated sand you have you have to have a pad because your Gmax attenuation is the pad. Uh any of the other types a pad is is an option. um you know if and for safety you know for for better better ensuring GMAX and shock attenuation inclusion of a pad is recommended >> and I guess then um does the pad then prolong the life of the turf or not really? >> Yes. Is that what you said earlier? >> Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's and it's it Yeah. And you you'll get two at least you'll get at least two cycles of turf with a one pad. So the the $100,000 it's really
05050 and 50. Um so uh but yeah it it absolutely does. So you have the benefit of you know kind of insurance for GMAX and you have two cycles with it. Uh so >> um a question is uh the infill Are there studies that say it should be different based on the sport like a baseball field versus football or >> Yeah, there's there's usually it there there are uh some studies on it. It again it's really the the the difference often will be uh with baseball and stuff is you know maybe your infill increases maybe you have more sand in the in ratio of the sand to the SPR or the coated SPR uh often you know that's one way of doing it uh infill types uh obviously like the coated sand the TPE you
051know they're they're since uh they're pretty much the coated sand in particular. You, like I said, you'll see that, you know, more often on a, uh, on a field hockey type field where you want, you know, fast bowl roll. Um, uh, we always jokey field hockey coaches would love just to pay the parking lot green and, you know, they want speed. They want that's what they want. But yeah, I mean, it's usually a ratio mix. You know, more sand makes it firmer. Less sand makes it, you know, less firm. But then you have to watch you have to watch with your Gmax. But if you have a pad that kind of off, you know, it's offsets it. So, uh, depending on your ratios. >> You mentioned asking for samples. I was just wondering, do you
052have a list of local schools with the different options that possibly we could all go on a tour? Yeah, I have actually reached out to the v I've reached out to to the different vendors um to give provide me a list of that uh and um I'm going to follow up with some of them, you know, uh on that because I do know I talked to one today that's why I mentioned Westtown School. Uh I have talked uh I have talked to another one and I have to confirm they they did a a field recently with an organic info. Um and uh any of the other types um I mean really for right now the only field I only field I know the EPDM field is up in Reading. Um but I would have to
053think there would have to be another one around here. I think like Germantownm is mostly organics. Um and uh I'm not in Delco. I'm not sure of all the this area all they have, but the the vendors are usually more than willing to offer up any alternate. Uh and the thing too with some of these they're they the rubber SPR recycled sub I can't speak the recycled rubber and sand have been around for a while. The other ones you like you know the coated sands maybe seven years. So, some of these haven't even gone a full cycle of turf yet. Uh, because they're always trying to always trying to get, you know, one better and and and and get something new. There there is some manufacturers offer uh a no infill turf. Uh the the
054school's out on that because there's a bit of mixed bag of reports about how it's when it rains it gets slippery. Uh when it u you need a pad which that's that so be it. But it's uh the players didn't like the feel of it. Um you know particularly if it's slippery. Yeah. Then you worry about safety. then you worry about things getting you know twisted and blown out. So, you know, it sometimes it seems like, you know, uh monofilament was a kind of came out as a fad thing and there was a rash of these projects going out the monofilament fields and the UV resistance was poor. The fact that, you know, the infill if it wasn't properly maintained, they went over, wore away. Then you know I won't name names around here but
055some of those fields you could probably if you remember going to a field couple about five six years ago and it looked more black than it did green was probably a monofilament field because it probably got worn down. You test to the GMAX it test fine. Does it look fine? No. Yeah. So um and you know again they well they add do things and add UV inhibitors to it. Well, you got to wait 10 years to see if it then now we're probably like about seven eight years into the newer generation of monofilament. They're better, but still the same the same thing with them. That's why like I think now there's really been bit been more of a movement to go with a hybrid so you get the two different types and one helps kind
056of support the other. So, >> okay. um on the pads. So, it sounds like you're probably going to recommend some sort of pad regardless of what system we end up going with. >> Yeah, it's Yes. And it's really it's a budgetary thing. It's a it's purely a budgetary. I mean, we've had schools that nope, can't do it. We just can't. Others are like absolutely. >> So, the ones that um you say the pad is required, is that is the pad included then in the cost differential? >> Yeah. Yeah. those those additional square foot costs would be like the >> include the pad. So if we went with let's just say the coated rubber infill with a pad the differential between that versus the TPE would be less. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah.
057Yeah. Yeah. So that's Yeah. That that number includes includes the pad number. >> Yeah. When when a pad is Yes. I have a Yes. That includes the pad. Okay. Uh next field injury. Um and uh I get a little wordy here. Um but it's you know researching injury frequency on synthetic turf, natural g turf. The one thing I have found out over the years who paid for the study because you know somebody will site so and so and you look at who financed the study. Okay, could I understand why that went that way? Uh and so you know that's some something to be mindful of. You're trying to look at independent third third uh third person third person studies. Um and then the consistent pattern is that lower lower extremity injuries do seem to you
058know with do seem to occur more in turf but they increase not as at the lower levels not as much as they as you get to the get to the college and and the in the professional. Primarily reason the biomechanical the strength of the energy movements with these 275 325 pound guys compared to a two you know 120 lb uh uh wide receiver is totally different in the turf often to uh a lot of the NFL injuries often attributed are to improper footwear which there is now more and more call for people to like hold it a second, you know, start doing more studies on the footwear. Um, and I was looking up statistics. Uh, you try to keep on top of this this year. This year alone, I actually had a cross check and
059I was right. There have been more lower extremity injuries in grass fields than turf fields this year in the NFL. Now, speaking as a person who coaches, there are some fields, there's a misnomer, too, that all the grass fields are safe. Uh, I've played on a lot of fields. I grass fields I don't consider safe. Um, as we we call them ankle busters and things like that. Um, that they're uneven. Uh, you know, they're compact and hard so you don't get grass to grow. Uh, and the one thing people don't do, which is kind of surprising in a way, you'll GMX a turf field, but no one gmax tests natural turf fields, which I bet if you g if you, you know, gmax in these natural turf fields, you'd be surprised how high the reading
060is. Um, so again, it's yeah, there is uh there is an increase in it. Uh I my daughter blew her knee out um playing rugby uh a non-cont um injury. Um my son had concussions, but he had out of the three concussions his senior year in football, two were on a grass field and one was on a turf field. So um it's really the important thing is maintenance. you know, you have proper if you have a pad, you know, you have your your your your infill, proper infill, but also maintenance that all that stuff's maintained and sometimes that is, you know, not always the issue. Um, but uh is is kind of attributable. So, this is a thing, like I said, it it goes back and forth um again with who who's paid for the
061study and whatnot. Um, >> do you do you anticipate um recommending depending on which field we're talking about a different surface uh for example the stadium versus this multi-use field um that's going to be baseball/softball? Well, the the when we met with staff to go over some of the particulars, the one thing that was cited, I guess right now um the football stadium has a has a thatch system which helps contain your infill. Um and which uh uh again that that helps that helps you know because the fly you know everyone has seen the game the flyyou stuff you get you get less of that with with a thatch system. Um, so and there's there's also a couple rules because, you know, some people feel you need more infill, some people feel you need more
062face weight, quote unquote, um, which is your fibers in your in your your turf. Uh, school's out on that again because you'll get a study from one person that says this is right, you know, but all in all, bottom line is you they all have to meet a certain standard with safety. they all do meet that certain standard of safety. >> I mean, I guess just from like a cost perspective, if we choose a certain way to go for the stadium versus the multi-use field versus what's going in at um the middle school? Like, is it more cost-effective that we do all the same all the way across? Does it not matter? Um >> it doesn't really matter. I mean, it's the you're going to be playing football here and you're going to be playing
063football at the stadium. So, those are that would be I would recommend a two and a quarter. I mean, you can go less if there's pads. You can go less. Um the the the multi-purpose facility would be be a 2-in facility. Um but it I mean as of I would pro probably I would recommend hybrid systems and you know the request has been made for thatch that system on them. So, uh that's you know you'll have that continu continuity. the infill should all should all be the same if possible uh with that. So, um but yeah, if you have I mean if you had a certain you're trying to keep it consistent also for the students because if they're playing in the stadium, they're used to this type of turf system, they go over the
064multi-purpose field, they want to be used to the same type of turf system. Um so that's also helps because it's a playability issue where they know what to expect. [snorts] Okay. Uh next uh maintenance best practices. Now there these are the owner or root what's called routine maintenance. Whenever you know we have a new project uh what we do is we'll uh specify um equipment u to be uh part of the package. Uh because uh there's there's been advances in package uh any type of equipment uh maintenance. the owner. Routine maintenance is grooming with the your brush and you remaining in uh maintaining infill. Your magnet drag sweep to remove organic and foreign debris. Monitor infill levels. You know, you go around check the hot spots. You address it with the high wear areas. The
065hot spots and protective matter uh mats under high wear areas. Um usually with baseball like you know have batting practice, throw a you know throw a tarp down. they they actually you can get like batting tarps to help protect it. Um the contracted periodic maintenance is a decompacted infill. That's when you'd go and you know you you'd contract somebody out to do an annual decompact infill via the the tine rake and mechanical brushing repair any seams inlays and logos. Now often what that's done that'll be part of your warranty uh 8year uh uh warranty. Uh also in our specifications we we require that the supplier uh provide GMAX testing services for the years of the warranty. So uh that way it's that's part and parcel of the package. They come back annually to check it.
066uh highware replacements, usually baseball, softball, fields, because some people actually have a system where it's kind of it's a Velcro type system uh where they can lift it up uh and replace it. Um often what you'll see done is the old Veteran Stadium cutouts um that way cuz you know it'll eventually fade over time and if you put a you know a new tan piece there looks like a new tan piece. Uh, and often too you have to watch too with the uh we I was at a field where they did a repair and the it was like a half inch higher than the existing turf because that turf that turf wore down and they replaced it with a different type of turf. So it looks silly as all heck. Looked like the looked like
067the the the the lacrosse goalie sitting on top of a little hill. Um, and safety performance testing, you know, the hick the the GMAX testing. the the one test and I'm going a little into details here is called a hick test which is a spherical type drop uh test which is they're trying to push that to be more because that's more truly representative of of a head I mean some of the pe the actually the people who are leading in when it comes to testing these stuff are international rugby federation and the uh FIFA um have a lot of standards on the ball roll and and things like that. So, and often those are for like, you know, upper grade professional fields where but uh it's hoped that the hick test becomes a little more
068prevalent uh because that's a little more I mean there's nothing wrong with the GMAX test as it is. Uh I mean that's used in playgrounds and stuff like that. So uh next >> question sorry um you may have gone over this. My apologies if you did. The uh warranties are the same regardless of the system that we choose. >> Usually, yeah. Um there are they're normally industry standards eight. You can ask for 10. Some will but the like the last two years is self-insured, you know. So, >> so follow up to that, what is the is is also the the um I'm going to use the wrong word, the use life the same for each system regardless of >> I mean I I mean I I there have there have been fields and one of
069which was the uh it was a Hershey Park stadium field which was like 15 years old before they replaced it. But how frequently was that used? you know, um they had state championships there and that was about it. Uh and they had a pad underneath and stuff. So, normally that's 12 years. 12 years seems to be if everything's maintained properly, um it's 12 years >> and I assume the warranty only covers the remaining life, whatever didn't. >> It's the first eight years. Yeah, it's it's And some of these warranties some of these warranties when it's come to warranty replacement situations there's been like with typical with any warranty there's a little bit of a battle you know with it um you know I mean if if you have your arch rival come out and you
070know spray gasoline on and poof which has been done it has been done it's it's amazing >> as an example >> as an as an example no one take notes on it um >> my original question is what is a magnet drag Is that like you drag magnets along it? >> What it is? It actually is a magnetic bar. >> It's It's actually a mag It's a just a It's a like essentially Well, right. Well, you see the the on the bottom right. >> Uhhuh. >> That's a sweeper and a magnet. >> And is it just picking up like filaments that have come out of the tires and stuff? >> No. Picks up bobby pins. >> Bobby pins and stuff. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Bobby. >> So things that have been left on the field,
071not things that are shedding out of the rubber. >> Right. Correct. It's usually that is >> it's in the bobby pins, but there was no other mention. So, >> no, no, that is anytime you see pictures of I'll gladly send Dr. Malo a picture. It's like they'll after they go through it and they clean it, they they show you what they pull up and it usually it's bobby pins. I actually for one was a pocket watch chain. How that >> I don't have any idea how that got in there. And and Shel, we actually will use things like that in the theater as well in preparation for a show because so much work's being done on the stage. You have nails and screws and that kind of stuff. So little magnet on wheels, you run
072up and down the stage that does the same thing. >> Oh yeah. And that's and then that's the deep cleaning like the periodic maintenance. They'll actually bring the infill up and go through a like a go through a screen and it goes back down. Uh, and they have a magnet in there to to get any to get anything out. So, um, that incident, I don't want to make people think that that one incident means there's always issues with with metallic. That was a >> anomaly. I I felt like a fool last year at the ASPA going around asking questions and everyone's like, "Well, heck, I haven't seen that in 25 years." You know, it's like, whoa. Okay. So, it was truly an isolated incident. And then one last question. We've been talking about all the
073different costs and the different pros and cons to each of the infills. Do any of the infills require less routine maintenance or less periodic maintenance than the others? the the S the SPR coded the coded SPR um and EPDM are >> those are those are ones that are you know because they're all similar they're all they're all the rubber um it it seems to be the you know the organics definitely require more maintenance um again like I told you that little story I was in the city u uh you know But also it depends it depends on what type of organic or alternate system you want. So the coated sand has a tendency to compact and you so you'll have to you know you'll have to not rake it but for lack of better term
074rake it out more often. So um and that's the other reason too why those are more popular because there's they're less they're less maintenance. Um, and we all know, I mean, it it's, you know, at most all school districts, I there's one school district in the state that had a staff of 20 grounds people. Most everywhere else, it's you count the number of grounds people on a hand. Um, and uh, it's it's just the way it goes. Just it's just the way it goes. It's just the way it goes. I mean, you know, and and like I said, you know, every I it's a it's a it's a coach joke, but every kid's a division one prospect and it's like the parents in sports do not get in their way. I mean, you know, um
075and it's very important and uh and like well here around here, these fields, you could see how much these fields are used. they are beat and high usage warrants, you know, a lot of maintenance and a and a lot of cost. And I think next to actually the next slide I think it yeah I actually I took this from the report that like kind of shows you like an annual this is kind of an average annual maintenance cost like for you know synthetic turf you know you know again you know this this actually came out of a uh sports turf management uh article a couple years ago and just adjusted the prices based on inflation. I mean, we're talking now you you're comparing a comp a competition grass field to turf field because your standard
076your standard grass field does not get the level of you know care that like you have a competition field. You know, comparing turf to your standard school field is is really not. That's apples to peanuts. So, but um and again, I mean it there's you have maintenance with the with the synthetic turf, but nowhere near as much. And again, this was from a a sports turf management um study that was done years ago. So I always like to cite it because I mean th that article was basically just you know comparing I mean in different you know you know if anything they're probably more grass f you know favor grass more so but that gives you kind of a rough you know a comparison on that end and I think is that I think is
077it the last yes it's the last study last one so okay I I I could stay here all night talk about this stuff I'm sorry about So, um, yeah, it's not an easy decision. I mean because you know it and the the one thing wasn't brought up tonight and you know is like PFAS and and and microplastics and the disturbing thing that I'm finding out and the industry is finding out and there was about four or five years ago there was a field going in up turf field going up in Cape Cod and a lot of environmental issues on that. They went and tested the insitu soil. The amount of microplastics and PFAs in that soil was alarming. And there's people out here, you know, oh well, the synthetic turf is the biggest generator of
078of PFAS. No, it's in the water now. And they do not. The industry now has all gotten on the bandwagon about we Oh, we add there is such thing. There is such a thing as good PFAS and bad PFAS. They don't add any P PFAS willing to their processes. They have letters attesting to it and stuff like that. Soon as you get the first rainfall, you probably have PFAS in the field. Microplastics are everywhere. I mean, we probably all have microplastics. I mean, this kind of scared me when I'm we're doing this research about, you know, the your containers you drink from, the you makeup you put on the, you know, uh, cleansers. It's everywhere. Um, and, you know, these fields are not a sole source of microplastics. We got a bigger issue environmentally there
079which I I'm not qualified to talk about that but uh you know on that end um the concern with concern with chemicals and cancers and stuff for years the studies were going back and forth and back and forth and everyone was waiting for the EPA to come out. The EPA came out and basically said there's no smoking gun when it comes to turf and rubber infills. Um, and they always say, "Oh, we always can do more study, but you know, so you that study that study came out and it's the EPA with, you know, so it's it's it's it's pretty much, you know, okay, finally there's like a benchmark for other people to take a look at um with it." So again, I mean there's always a lot of these studies you see lo like
080they're tilted one way or the other then they're always qualified about additional studies will have to be done. Um can we go back to the the slide where it talks about the different options and the price? Um, yeah. I I'm just curious if we chose synthetic synthetic turf infill. Do you have a recommendation? You've looked at our fields. You you have a sense. >> Well, it's it's really these all work. They all have their pluses and minuses, but really it's the desire of the owner. What what what do you feel is your biggest concern with it? I mean, if it's cost, it's the SPR rubber sand. If it's, you know, if there is a, you know, uh, a concern that, you know, we want, you know, we kind of like to have the maintenance be
081easy, then look at coated rubber rubber infill, um, or EPDM. Um, going with the other ones. Okay. Well, nope, we're going organic, nothing but organic. Okay. Well, that's going to be an additional cost. I mean these these all all here because they work. I the only if if if you know I would say don't even think about coated sand. Only reason I have coated sand up there because that's that's an option. That's an option. TPE there not many TPE fields around. Why be the why be the experiment? You know why be the only one in a 50 mile radius that has a TPE field? So that's >> is that because of the cost where TPE? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's the other thing too is when it comes to these other
082fields, you know, really to get a time scheduled to go talk to these other facilities that have this, it's like you go go mono when I have these when I like to get these meetings scheduled, there isn't any salespeople there. It's school people versus talking to school people to talk about. What have you seen? I mean, what have you seen performance-wise? What have you seen from a maintenance? What have you seen from the responsiveness wise to the from this vendor? We don't need to have, you know, you don't need to have a vendor there trying to sell you, you know, whatever he's trying to sell you. This is peer-to-peer to go over it. And it's like, you know, based off because we've had some people, some decisions, uh, you know, not necessarily with infill because
083infill is probably is kind of a given. It was type it was the turf type that they decided, well, okay, they said this is better. right? You know, do some research like, all right, we have two other school districts that had a choice. They felt this system was better. We're going to go with this system. When I looked at this from number one, the point of view of what would be safest for those using the field and safe meaning lower extremity um uh injuries um concussions and even breathing in uh uh chemicals and the heat issue too. Um, what I what my limited research came up with was EPDM with a pad or coated sand. And what I want to know is, and I know you said don't choose coated sand. I'd actually like to
084hear a little bit briefly more about why not. Um, but would any of would either of those options be reasonable for all of the different types of play that would occur on those fields? >> Yeah. I mean, you you again going back for commonality of surface types. Okay. I mean, you don't want to have one that's um, you know, TP, one that's EPDM, one that's Yeah. Again, for the kids, you know, that that they're used to this type of surface. I like I said, I I was on a code at Stanfield. I wouldn't have my players playing on it. >> And then that's it didn't feel safe. It didn't feel safe. It just felt I mean >> it felt too hard. It felt Yeah. And and actually uh the one school district I was working
085with, uh we're having we're there looking at doing entire field. come to find out her son played at that college and was just saying how much they hate to feel. It doesn't feel safe. It just does not feel right. Um it's just doesn't it it's hard to explain. I mean, if you're anyone, you know, you just you know when something isn't right and it doesn't it wasn't really the other ones TPE are rare is rare. I I don't know off top of my head of any in the area. I mean there has that probably is one you'll epdm is more common would be more common uh you know uh with it. So >> and does EPDM have a heat reduction property at all? Yeah, I've seen I I [sighs] have one I I saw something
086about like alternate they if it's manufact they can manufacture it green. They can man they can manu it's not all awful. They can manufacture it and it could be green usually because the cheaper thing is to use the off and >> and you know that >> and is there anything about our land or our drainage that we should be considering as we choose this particularly our location. Um again the concern is there's there's back probably background microplastics and PFAS out in the soil um with that but no I mean the the concern is there there is a move now to have lack of better term containment system so when you go onto the field there's like a great type system where the players walk off you know they could stomp once or twice and it
087it falls it falls down into the system and then you could then you can reuse it. Um >> I meant in terms of you know how we drain the field or or the quality of the earth or the elevation of our actual if that if that has any impact on which one we should choose. Well, and I'm not uh Gus Gus is Hman's going to be doing the design and um my understanding and I'm get drilling into the well going down a rabbit hole here a little bit. Storm water nowadays is becoming extremely it's always been difficult now it's getting more difficult. Um and uh if you don't get infiltration you get what they call MRC's but there's a big emphasis on water quality for like carrying particulate matter temperature thing like this. the systems
088that Gus is will Gus will be designing [snorts] are going to be addressing those issues. Normally with turf fields, the structures underground, the this the mix, the infill mix, the backing fiber uh and the stone act as a filtration. Um and uh and actually we've worked with D on this to to review it and they actually have considered it a a constructed fil uh filtration system. Um the biggest concern nowadays is you know you know is just silt and sediment getting into systems and you don't the way initially like designed you know the initial designs of of of Springton and in the multi-purpose field there is no no upland water going into there I mean that's going into systems that he's going to that's going to connect and go into the sub subsurface systems. Um
089so yeah that actually now your water quality is being mandated in your regulations now. So it the synthetic turf fields again is that's not an issue. The biggest issue is parking lots with petroleums and >> you know things like that. So >> did you say EDM ED EPDM is a sole manufacturer? Is that the one you said was limited? No, there's some they they there no the EPDM can be manufactured like can be manufactured in various colors particularly forthfills or there people who do who do the recycling of the of the virgin material. >> I I think you were thinking Shelley perhaps of the cryogenic at one point. >> Yeah, the cryogenic that's the Thank you. >> Yeah. And like so what manufacturer in particular that's kind of their forte is to use the cryogenic
090uh rubber. So, >> are there any implications in the disposal of these materials when we're done with them in terms of um how bad they are for the environment? >> They are. Well, at right again was kind of disappointing a couple a couple years ago. Pennsylvania is kind of the the epicenter of recycling facilities for synthetic turf. I'm like, why? Um and there was like three different people presenting at this con at this meeting and oh we're locating a factory in Scranton. We're locating a factory in Pittsburgh and it's why well apparently you know the regulations in the state are more favorable to it. Um they are yeah which uh in a sense that they are right now they are recycling them for reuse in turf. They're recycling them for, you know, like your um
091um your like benches and often you'd see like if you go to Yeah. like you front of a grocery market just like this was made with you know that uh other like other uses. Um the the infills uh the infills uh again some of these are so new they never been taken out and you know and and and gotten rid of. Um uh but usually there's always a chain of custody required to show a chain of custody that it goes it goes to the proper facility uh and uh that it doesn't go to some farmer which like in I live in Lancaster County there was a farmer in York who apparently was that's all he was doing was collecting you know turf rolls of turf for what purpose god knows. Uh but yeah, that is
092that is becoming becoming quite quite uh uh the industry now to recycle because of the concerns. >> So they're all pretty even in terms of decision across all of these options >> for the >> in terms of their disposal and >> Oh yeah. No, no. Yeah. >> Not one hands out as good or bad. >> No, no. They're they're all Yeah. They're um they're they're all have certain criteria they have to meet. And like I said with Pennsylvania, the the regulations uh the regulations the other thing too is p you know Pennsylvania happens to be like you know you have the turnpike you have 81 you have you know there I mean there's other states that have them but it just seemed to be this one convention one meet you know meeting I was at
093another facility in Pennsylvania what what is it actually some of them are reusing old industrial sites which well that makes sense because we look at yeah we have old industrial sites that are just sitting there vacant you know that you know they're they have the ability the size of the facility and stuff can be placed there. So um and that's again that's kind of that that is by probably two or three years because I think it was like four or five years ago that maybe that's what this whole recycling thing is like what is going on with these these these these turf these turf uh you know that's being removed. So >> okay um do we have any other board questions? >> What's the what's our Yeah. Um I'll ask Dr. Malage if you want
094to jump in on that. >> So we have some some questions that Hugh is going to secure answers for us that I will get out to the board um sometime in the next two weeks. Um we expect to have another discussion at the work session in January which will be on Thursday, January the 8th about where we are next steps. Um we expect that we'll have some sort of update where we are in the process with approvals um of the permitting process as well. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> All right. So, we will move on to the high school uh course selection guide. We have uh Mr. Roth um and the assistant principal, Mr. Rhyme Shuffle, right? Rhyme Shussle. We'll do a presentation. >> Hello. Use my energy. She
095goes. >> Good evening everyone. I'm Bill Dockerty, assistant superintendent. Um, this is our annual presentation of the guided academic program for Penrest High School. [snorts] As you know, um, each year we bring changes to the AC academic guide, um, for the board to discuss tonight and then approve at the legislative meeting. So, I have with with us tonight the principal of Penrest High School, Mr. Ed Roth, and assistant principal, David Ryel. >> All right. Good evening everyone. Um so we're excited uh a year ago uh we presented an academic guide with an entirely new look to the high school schedule. Uh I'm excited that we are not doing that this evening. Um so really what we're here to talk about is a little bit more traditional, talk about some new courses. Um and then you
096know some other updates uh you know to you know we're fine-tuning at this point. Um, you know, it's been a a great start to the school year. Um, we're really happy with where we stand schedule-wise, uh, at this point, and I think with some fine tuning, we'll be in an even better position moving forward. That way, kids are able to get all the courses that they want and need to pursue their hopes and dreams. And with that, I'm going to turn it over to uh, Mr. Rhymeshell, who has been nothing short of extraordinary in his what, 14 months here now? >> Yeah. There we go. All right. It's been a great 14 months. So, here's to here's to a great month number 15. >> Well, with an introduction like that, I should probably just leave
097right now. Um, uh, so good evening. Thank you for having us here tonight. Um, we are here to talk about the guide to academic programs and, uh, kind of an overview of the scheduling process, um, for the full year. So I do want to start by just um showing again our um scheduling gant chart that kind of gives you the full year process. So we just actually wrapped up last year's um process in September of this year with uh finishing schedule changes and adjusting for students. And so now uh we just now started the the new year which starts with building the academic guide and kind of presenting that here uh this evening. You can see that date there. Uh then the next phase would be uh student schedule requests which will begin when students
098get back from um excuse me [clears throat] winter break and that process goes until about the end of March. And then we will begin to build our master schedule uh by looking at course tallies and and um looking at staffing and and making adjustments there. And then um in the summer months, that's where we put the finishing touches on the schedule and do all kinds of revisions for the students. Uh so I did want to remind you of that full year process. It's an entire cycle of constantly looking at the needs of the students um as we move forward uh through the year. Uh couple of changes that we did in the Gant chart is we we did add um a check process for NCAA uh compliance. Um we've learned in conversations with some of
099the colleges that the way our courses were labeled uh gave pause to the the colleges. It wasn't necessarily a red flag, but it asked additional questions. And so, uh, now we're kind of looking at the way things are worded to make sure we're in compliance, uh, before we publish the guide. Um, we added an additional review of our MAP data for, uh, rising 9th grade students. Uh, this year we discovered that there were some students that in their very first map data uh, maybe didn't do quite as well as they did in the second one. We didn't catch that in a time to adjust it um, for the upcoming school year. So now we have a process in place to make sure we catch that in the future. Um and then uh because of the
100block schedule when uh teachers do their um course recommendations in January uh the second semester teachers will have only seen the students for about a week. And so it's very difficult to make a full recommendation on that. And so what's going to happen is at the end of March uh teachers second semester teachers will have a chance to go back and look at the recommendations they made and then revise those recommendations if needed. uh and so we can adjust the students requests in the system and and capture that data. Uh so moving into the guide itself um I do want to show you we have a brand new cover art. Uh this is done by our senior Will de Demos. It's kind of hard to get it in the one screen because of the way
101it's I'm having to share here. So I do apologize for that. But it's a really nice cover like like lots of bright colors and kind of a a modern take on our artwork there. So I did want to highlight that and uh thank Will for his his contribution. So we do have uh new courses which I'll get into at the end. I've got a a whole table there to overview what those new courses will be. Um a big addition to um the guide this year is uh we're transitioning from Naviance to a new program called score uh which it will be our comprehensive um program to help track students as they apply for colleges and and career beyond the school. Uh so there is a new updated section with that. Um we do have an
102up >> one second. Why the change? >> Um so Navia the change that we're making is one that uh I would say large majority of schools around us are making. Naviance is a satisfactory program. Um score is really you know offers one a much friendlier you know interface for students and families. Um the search features are much better. Uh the tracking features are also much better. Um you know everything from uh being able to Navvian does this but not as well. Uh being able to show um you know statistics of students who are getting into certain schools. Um helping students to really be able to build their target schools, their reach schools. Uh and then also a greatly improved way of using uh alumni data. Um, so that way we're not just, you know, tracking
103what's happening going into post-secary, but what happens coming out of post-secary. Um, and our counseling department's been working with, uh, several counselors in other local schools who have made the transition recently, and we are pretty excited about it. We're actually going to roll that out to our junior class this week, uh, before they start their junior meetings. Our current senior class will finish with Naviance uh, because they're already so far along in the game. But >> we heard the score is also much more costefficient which is a good thing. >> One follow on question to that is um is the history I know Navian had the history of of how many other students have applied to um those schools and what their SATs I guess and GPA scores were. So school students could get a
104feel for what the what their odds were and everything. Will score have that history or will we have to build that history again? >> No, all of that history is being rolled taken. We've already taken that out of Naviance. Uh all of that has been inputed into score. >> Excellent. Thank you. >> Uh another new addition is we we added a part to describe uh our moving into smart futures. Uh, and then finally, we added a section u really isn't necessarily added. The language was already in there. It just now officially comes from the Knack Act, which is a National Association of Colleges and what their recommendations are uh for students uh as part of their planning guide. Uh so those are our new additions, not nearly as comprehensive as last year when we completely
105revamped the entire guide. Um a couple of updated sections. Um we did update the graduation requirements section uh due to the um statemandated personal financial literacy uh graduation requirement. So that's factored in now. Uh we updated the weighted GPA section uh because starting next year we have all one leveling system and one GPA system. So it'll be really nice everybody's on the same uh chart there. Um we uh again because of the delelling uh we updated academic placements and how that will look. Um we did rename what's in the current guide as standard to college prep. I know that might be a little confusing because we deleled college prep. We're not calling the courses college prep, but the level itself as opposed to being standard, it'll be college prep and then we'll have the honors
106level and then the academic or sorry, the advanced placement level. Uh the reason for that is the the uh our counselors um thought it was better for colleges to see the word college prep than standard uh in our descriptions. >> Does that do anything to the group of students that may not be aspiring for college? No. So, you know, if you think about the the old leveling system that our current seniors are phasing out, college prep was actually our lowest level. Um, the standard level is a true college prep level. Um, I think college prep is appropriate for students even if college is not their post-secary option. Um, you know, students are still going to continue in one way or another, you know, continue to be educated. they're going to use rigorous academic skills. U
107the biggest issue with the name standard is that when students were filling out the common app, uh they were asked how many college prep courses they took. Uh and so students were pausing saying, "Well, I wasn't in college prep, I was in another level." Um so that's the reason why we want to make sure that they know that those courses are college prep. >> Uh another update is our service and career readiness. Uh we'll continue to update this in phasing in uh that new ser um service and career readiness program. Uh we're currently on well next year will be year two of that. Uh so we'll have two more years of updating that for the each graduating class. Um art courses uh we kind of restructured the way that the art courses are laid out
108in the guide um and created some pathways for students. Um so now students will have um an opportunity to choose a um a more traditional pathway or a ceramics pathway um a metal works pathway or a digital art pathway. Um they still can mix and choose from all amongst them and kind of get a whole um cornucopia if you will. Uh but this way now it's it shows a little bit more of a comprehensive program uh for those pathways. Um, English has been reformatted. Um, AP for AP research um, which will no longer be uh, count as the junior level um, English. Uh, colleges were not quite accepting that um, in some of the applications. So, we have taken that out of there. It still will be offered as a course, but it will be
109an English elective. Uh, and then we've dleled English 12. So no longer having the accelerated and college prep uh courses with that. Um >> about the research. >> Yep. >> So um does that mean they would have to take an English class and AP research? >> Uh correct. >> That'd be very hard. >> Yeah. What we what we found was a small but important uh chunk of colleges uh while you know college board markets AP seminar as AP English 10 >> um college board does not market AP research as English 11 and so there were some schools like Stanford was one um that if you did not take an 11th grade English other than AP research they did not feel that you satisfied a four-year English requirement. Um, so some of our students would either
110have to know at the end of 10th grade if they wanted to go to this subset of schools and that subset of schools is going to change year after year. We wanted to make sure that we were setting our students up for success. Um, the way that uh, Mr. Ryussle and the English department have worked together to format this um, they will not have the course at the same time. um they're going to have AP research one semester, they're going to have the English 11 the second semester. Um so that way they're not doubled up on the workload. A lot of courses that do AP research actually teach it outside of the English department altogether because a lot of the research projects are more social sciences, science, you know, things like that. Um there's no
111literature component to AP research. we've been forcing that literature component in um because it is one of our four years of literature up until this point. >> I just think that the AP research and seminar are really valuable just for like life, right? Just to know those skills. And so I guess I just want to make sure that we're honoring the value of that. And I'm afraid that kids aren't going to take it. And it see such a if you learn so much in that class um that I'd hate to sacrifice what you're gaining for a small group of students who may applying to Stanford, >> isn't it? Uh it'll still be there, right? But what I'm not sure what the issue is. >> Kids will not have a lot of room to be taking
112extra English because they'll still have to take 11th grade English and then this will be one of their electives. And so, you know, trying to fit everything in to do the 11th grade English and AP research, AP research is going to fall away. And >> but but if AP research is not really English, they have to do something, right? But it I don't know if it's I can't speak to whether >> they're saying they're not it's that it's not you've had to >> or it's not a it is a research course. Um sorry I still have turf on the brain. Um it's uh I'm very excited about the turf. Um let me compose myself here. Um so it's it's not a it's really not an English course. um the research skills that are taught in
113the course the I mean they write a you know a mini master's thesis they do presentation skills but there is nothing you know English in the minds of colleges is literature and it's just not a literature course if if it was a senior year course maybe I'd feel a little bit better about saying here's the schools we know of that will not accept this credit. And if you know for a fact you don't want to apply to these x amount of schools, then take the course. The problem is colleges changed their minds every year and this course is offered to 11th graders. So we would be forcing 15y olds to know for sure if they wanted to go to a list of schools that we will never have a comprehensive list. So we actually discovered
114this issue halfway through last year. We met with the students in AP um research and seminar at the time. Um there were some students in AP research who were contemplating some of those schools. um we said, you know, you've got a little bit of time. You could double up in English your senior year. Um but again, I don't think that that's necessarily an ideal way to go. I I think that while yes, they are using an extra credit to take the AP research and the English 11, um if we also put it into context of last year these students only had seven credits in their junior year anyway. Now they have eight. um it really kind of takes the place of that extra credit um as opposed to, you know, taking the place of something
115else that they would have had before. I your your concerns are valid. Um I just I I think I think that students are too young to know for sure and I also would just hate to have a kid applying to whatever their dream school is, probably Temple. Um and Temple turn around and say, "You know what? We don't accept that." and then we've set that kid up for disappointment. Um, a lot of these schools, you know, no kid is guaranteed acceptance to Stanford, right? And it's a lot of those level schools. Um, but that's also the same caliber of student who is taking these classes. >> Mr. Roth, does it will it open up opportunities for other students other than juniors to take AP research? >> They could. Um, you know, there's nothing stopping a
116student from taking that. They have to take seminar first. Um, so a student could take research their senior year for sure. >> And are there other I mean kids who are interested in the sciences or social sciences who could benefit from an AP research kind of curriculum? Is there a way of making sure those kids are more aware of this course now that it's not embedded in English or will it still be embedded in the English department? >> It'll still be taught by an English teacher. I will say though, a lot of the projects are really STEMbased. Um it's a wide array of courses. I think a lot of the students that are more STEMminded actually steer more towards um the research course uh because it's not AP literature or AP lang. >> And and
117just to piggyback off of what you said, Mr. Roth, um not the students don't just have one extra credit in their junior year. they will this coming junior class will have three extra credits than what other students have had and our current freshman will have four extra credits than what students will have. So if you're looking to towards that four-year plan, you know, it's important to set it up correctly to make sure you you plan for okay, I know I want to do the capstone program, so that means in my junior year I need to plan for this, which might mean I have to take another course in my sophomore year or my senior year. um which is part of the reason why we add in that four-year planner into the guide so students can
118have that and our counselors will have those conversations with students every time they meet with them and we will reinforce it with our rising ninth graders when we meet with them about planning for four years not just with what's in front of you. >> Uh math we updated again just to reflect the delelling so we'll no longer have accelerated and college prep courses there. uh PE and health. We have restructured a little bit um we combined a couple of classes that I'll get into later when I talk about the new courses um to make it a little simplified for students and what the offerings are uh and create accessibility for students in the PE courses. They don't feel so limited into a specific uh branch of that. Uh we've also um put in a note
119that allows students to take some of those courses multiple times. Like we've noticed that students want to take yoga every year because it helps them set their minds right for the day. Helps them refocus. It gives them that opportunity. They want to be physically fit but don't quite want to do basketball and team games. So, this gives them that opportunity to be able to do that. Much like our uh art students can take uh drawing and painting every year, much like our music students can take band and choir every year. Uh science, we reformatted our AP bio and AP Chem courses. So, they will be um two credit courses that run the full year uh to adjust for what we're doing. Um and then also updated science courses to DLE for 12th grade. Uh social
120studies, we have deleled our government courses. >> Can I ask a question? It seems like all the courses senior year are DLE because government's a senior year, science, social science. What's the rationale for dleveling all the 12th grade courses? It's the continuation of the deleveling that's happened uh the last four years. So it started with the current um the started with the current seniors. They're the last sorry started with the current juniors. Thank you. Um so the current seniors are the last ones under the old system with uh college prep, accelerated honors and and AP. They're also the um last group to have the old waiting system. And so that's >> that there's no levels. It's the new level system. >> Yeah, it's just a reduced number of levels. So, the old the seniors have
121>> accelerated honors college prep. The juniors and beyond have >> When I saw Dleing, I thought it was no levels. >> Okay. So, >> sorry for the the confusion with the nomclature. >> Okay. Okay. Got it. No problem. Thank you. >> I have a quick question. I didn't um see any updates to technology What are local districts doing with regard to AI, right, and teaching AI, AI literacy or the implementation in coding? Coding's quickly going to not be a thing anymore. So, how are changes being implemented in neighboring schools, if if any, if you know of any, and do we have any plans for some of these changes? Yeah. Uh I can I know that we are working as a district uh on a new AI policy and and and you know um I and
122Mr. Roth are attending classes at the IU uh to uh understand exactly those questions. I don't have all of those answers right now as we just think we we've only done two classes now. So we're working through that process uh toward coming up with a comprehensive plan. I know part of the talks for that have been AI literacy and and technology literacy and where we might fit that in to our programming. Uh we just don't have it formalized as of yet. Uh that may or may not live in the technology department. I mean uh we could just embed it into our freshman seminar courses or uh make it um embed it into our English and social studies courses or just we could embed it into all of our courses. It all depends on what comes
123of this >> that part. You could, but the but like I'll pick on coding specifically that's going to change like it's changing rapidly right now. So that wouldn't live in another part of the curriculum. Are any of the local districts that we know of or you you have your ears to the ground everywhere? What's going on with regard to those type of classes? Yeah, I think I I feel like we're all in a similar position of, you know, we're all exploring. Um, we're trying to map that out. Um, I am not, you know, aware of, you know, I mean, there's certainly, you know, several other school districts that are at the IU with us, you know, as we explore this. Um, you know, I was at the IU for a PEOS training last week and
124just kind of casually on the side. U, it was some of the same people and some who were not. Um and we were all kind of asking each other just you know where we're headed. Um you know I am sure that there are some local schools that have some courses either already enrolled or in you know a design phase. U but I could not name one off the top of my head for you at this time. >> I'll also say I I appreciate the um taking care and not rushing into anything. I didn't expect it, you know, an explosive answer. I was just curious kind of where we're at. >> And I've been I've been working in conjunction with with Ed and Dave here as well and I have been in contact with Garnet Valley
125in particular. They have shared some resources with us so far with me and um we are in the process of you know exploring developing that and then um as we look at that over the next couple of months and when we you know circle back with AI and where we are with that then that'll certainly be part of it. And and with our coding courses, our coding courses actually live in the mathematics department. I know it sounds a little weird. No. Uh there there are mathematics course as and most schools have it that way where the computer science is is part of the mathematics department. Um so we when the students go through the coding or the the computer science program, it starts with intro to coding and then it goes through our um AP
126um principles and our AP computer science A and then the students that have advanced through all of that had the advanced computer science which is purposely left open-ended. It's meant to be more individualized to the students uh as they go through their computer science research projects for the year. Uh and certainly that's where uh students that are at that advanced level and have learned all of the basic programming and computer science could be ready to do some of these AI projects. Um we also have our independent study um uh option for students. So students that want to pursue something in AI, they would just need to have a faculty sponsor that would work with them on that. Um it doesn't need to be limited to a technology or a computer science teacher. uh you know
127we we certainly have teachers that understand AI and are using AI in various ways that can help guide students. So uh in that realm we have left it open and an option for the students to pursue uh their own individual interests. Uh so that ends all of our new additions and updated sections. Um I do want to uh then now show you some of the new courses and some of these aren't necessarily new courses. they've just been revamped or renamed. Um, so, uh, as we go through here, you might say, "Oh, I kind of recognize that." It's just may be because we had a new name for it this year. Uh, starting in our, uh, general academics courses, um, we have a course called peer tutoring. Uh, this was originally named, um, education practicum. Uh,
128more specifically, it was the math education practicum as it was, um, conceptualized. Um, and we uh just updated the title to make it more accurately match what the course activities would be and so students understand what it is a little bit better and also it doesn't limit to strictly math. So this would be for students who uh have an interest in helping others in a particular subject area. They have demonstrated an aptitude in that subject area. They've demonstrated um good citizenship and good attendance and and recommended by a teacher. And so they would push into uh 9th or 10th grade uh uh college prep courses to help those students and and uh help the teacher out and and um learn about how to teach others as well in the process. Um another title change is
129uh unified buddies. This again was uh previously called special education practicum and that course title really didn't garner a lot of interest last year. there were students that did were very confused on what that meant and what it was and am I signing up for a special education course or what was that? Uh so after uh long conversations with um uh our our life skills team and um uh our our special education team um we came up with unified buddies which will go alongside with the unified courses. So the unified buddies will be students that um are in our general education u population. Uh they will have a a teacher that will work with them on skills on working with special needs students um and give them guidance as they then push into elective courses,
130art, music, uh computers, uh possibly foods, uh possibly um uh PE. So all of our elective courses, the students will have um our our unified section of that and our unified buddies will then go alongside of them. Uh there will be an option for this to be a half credit or a full credit depending upon what the students that are signed up for that their availability is. >> That comes an elective. >> Yes, it will be an elective course. Uh a new course offering will be our uh exploring visual art um art course. It's a new half credit elective. The purpose of this course is designed to give the students a sampling of the different pathways that I mentioned before. So the idea would be before a student starts heading down one of the pathways,
131they would take this course and learn, hey, I really like to work with metals or I really don't like that and I want to do digital art or whatever the case may be. Students would be exposed to this. Um the teachers uh the idea is the teachers are going to try to work it out where each of them that has that specialty would be able to come in for a time during this course regardless of who's teaching it. So they might trade off the ceramics teacher might come in to this course and then whoever is teaching the the visual art might go cover the ceramics course so they can give them more hands-on experience with that with the expertise in that area. Uh again I mentioned before that our personal financial literacy course will be
132a new course. Uh this is a new graduation uh requirement and is mandated by the state. Uh this will be an 11th grade requirement uh as we're putting it into the our guide. Another new business course will be AP business with personal finance. So it'll be an additional AP offering. Um this will expand our business uh opportunities and the idea is it's for the students that you know right now our students get to the entrepreneurship class and then they don't have anywhere else to go. So this adds another level for that uh for students who who really want to go into business and and and learn that. Um, unfortunately, as of right now, even though it says the word personal finance in the course title, the state does not recognize it as satisfying the personal
133financial literacy requirement. Um, I know that there is a conglomerate of school districts that are working on getting the state to accept this. Uh, but as of publication of this document, it it does not uh and more than likely will not for next school year, but it could be for in the future. um title change for um English 12. So we were replacing what was our college prep and honors and accelerated English 12 where now we'll have English 12 and honors English 12. And again that reflects the um uh reducing of leveling uh for the class of 2027. Uh a new English course offering will be advanced theater. Um this is expanding the theater course offering. So students that want to uh pursue theater for college and career will have more opportunities for that. Uh
134family consumer science um a new course offering called early childhood education. This is adding a level in that uh child development. So um now we will have uh child development one which will be an intro level that will now be open to 10th graders. The early childhood education would be the second level. And then the third level would be the um early childhood education practicum or what is also child development too where the students go out to the elementary schools and work with our elementary teachers um in in the setting and then also help with our little lions uh in the mornings. >> Quick question. Um, I think I know the answer, but advanced theater is English and I just given our previous conversation talking about research and how it really didn't belong in English.
135Um, which I understand and I get. Uh, so the advanced theater is that then the study of plays or how is that related to English as opposed to performing arts? Does that make sense? >> Um, so yes, certainly it's it's the study of plays. Um but it has a little bit more to do with the staffing and and the teachers that would be um teaching that. So currently an English teacher teaches our theater lab course and and he is the one that proposed the advanced theater course to expand on that. He also runs our um is it Gon or sorry the >> Amon our our um our afterchool theater group that that does our >> it's not actually an English class. >> No, >> just to be clear, right? I just want to be clear
136with all of our categories, right? It's a person who teaches English but also enjoys teaching theater and sounds like they have experience with it, but it's not actually an English class. >> Correct. It's it's an elective. It does not satisfy any English requirements. >> Okay. >> Oh. Oh, yes. I'm sorry for the confusion there. Yeah. Is not to replace an English course. >> Okay. I just wasn't sure when I see title change and then also underneath it in the same box is approve a new course advanced theater. But do you see what I >> and that's where I was just a little bit >> well. Right. So all of the courses within the the topic of that. So like >> we've just put it in the topic of English. >> Correct. >> Even though it's
137not English. >> Well, yes. It's an English elective. Yeah. We do not currently split out communications, theater, drama. Certainly that's a common practice with some larger schools. Um we do not do that. Much like we don't split out computer science from mathematics um you know it's a certainly a um it is not an English course. It's not a literature course. I guess we think of our English courses more traditionally as literature courses. Um but >> or if this was dealing with the study of plays or anything like that. And it sounds to me and I mean it sounds a lovely class but it sounds like it has nothing really to do with that. Right. I mean it's >> Yeah, it's more focused on on the performance side of theater. Correct. >> Thank you. >> Uh
138music uh a title change of what previously was intro to ensembles will now be called musicianship. Um for starters, we didn't get a lot of interest in our intro to ensembles. And so the thought was this would be an idea uh this would be a concept for students at all different levels to have individualized music uh um training. So if you're an advanced student, you you could pro possibly use this course to prepare for college auditions. Um if you're a student that's currently taking tuba, but you want to learn to do the violin, this will be a great opportunity for that. Um, if you wanted to uh play the guitar, we currently don't have a guitar ensemble. So, this would be uh an option for that as well as continuing to if a student is
139a brand new to music and wants to be in one of our performing ensembles, this will be a starting place for them. >> So, the curriculum is changing a little bit too then. >> Yeah. So, um the curriculum was always meant to be individualized. It's just expanding now to instead of only being for beginners, it can be for any level of of student wanting to individualize that music training. Got >> uh a title change. What used to be music theory is now uh contemporary music theory. Uh this more accurately accounts for the the course curriculum which involves uh some more modern music and some jazz and things that uh are just more contemporary. PE and health. Um, new course, strength training and conditioning. Um, this actually replaces two courses, uh, personal fitness and strength training
140for athletes. So, we're kind of combining those two concepts into one course. Uh, trying to make it more accessible to all students who who kind of want individualized personal workout as they're building. It's not limited to just athletes, which that was very confusing for students. Um, and also it gives the students, as I mentioned before, the ability to if they wanted to do this every year, um, they could do that. Uh, another new course name combining uh, two old courses is team sports and recreation. This will consolidate what was team games and net games and lifetime activities. uh for similar reasons as before. Those courses were already similar enough in structure. Uh this kind of clears up the confusion, makes it a little accessible, more accessible for students. Uh can't even talk. I'm sorry. Particularly
141from a scheduling aspect, you're not pigeonholding into the only the net games or only the team games. Now, uh we could offer more sections of the same thing uh versus less sections of the individual ones. uh course title change. Uh what was forensic chemistry and physics will now be called forensic physical science. Um this more accurately accounts for the course curriculum, not limited to just chemistry and physics. Uh a new course offering AP Physics 2. Uh and I know all of our other course titles use a Roman numeral here, but this one uses an an Arabic numeral. And that's because the AP college board uses the number two uh not a numer Roman numeral and we have to label things exactly as college board labels them. Uh so this will increase our um physics uh
142offerings in AP and it also gives an intermediary for some students that uh wanted more physics but weren't quite quite ready for the challenge of AP physics C. So >> can I ask a question? I had to run to the restroom about the PE. Um I know in the past when this was raised about um students um and who are um on an athletic team and other schools have allowed that to count as a PE credit and in the past I know Pennsylvania didn't allow it but now Pennsylvania doesn't have a PE requirement anymore just we as the district do. So, is there an opportunity for students who do play sports to have that count as a PE graduation request? >> So, some some thoughts on that. I mean, of of course there there are
143ways to do that. Uh, but the districts that usually have where sports takes uh place of the PE or can take place of that are districts that require students to take four years of a PE course. Uh here we only have that that two-year requirement and and when stu when districts do allow uh students to take use sports to uh count as a PE requirement, it's usually only for the junior and senior year. They have to take at least like a basic level PE which introduces them to uh basic physical fitness strategies. Um it introduces them to some nutrition strategies. It introduces them to u the regulatory strategies that they don't quite learn in a sports program that's focused in more on the conditioning and the and the and the the single sport. Uh so
144for those upper levels uh those those districts do um here we only have the two-year requirement. Uh and so we have the PE1 and the PE2 and then our health which is with that when the students get to junior and senior year certainly they could take sports and not take a PE course if they would like >> spec well in their older years they won't don't have any requirements. So it's not fulfilling a requirement. My my question is what is what is the rationale for not allowing someone who does sports and they train two and a half hours a day um what is the rationale for not allowing that to count as a PE requirement? I just think the the breadth of the PE curriculum, uh, you know, I think someone who plays soccer in
145the fall, uh, is not being exposed to all that the PE curriculum has to offer. You know, they're not being exposed to, uh, you know, nutrition. They're not being exposed to wellness, they're not being exposed to, um, you know, information about substance abuse. Um, they're not being exposed to everything. Is that in our health course or is that in our PE course? >> So, it's in the health course, but they're also topics that are introduced in nth grade PE. Okay. >> Um, I also think that there's something to be said, especially in a day and age where athletes are oversp specializing and there's a ton of research out there that kids are getting torn ACLs. U, they're getting Tommy John surgery at 15 years old because they're not utilizing their muscles in other ways. I
146think there's something to be said for us teaching kids not just to use their muscles in other ways. You know, getting the golfer to learn how to dribble a basketball, to learn how to dance, to learn how to play bad mitten, but also to learn, you know, sometimes lifetime, you know, sports. Um, you know, I played football up until the age of 16, but you know, look at me now. I certainly wasn't going to make a living doing it. Um, but there are other lifetime fitness activities that I think are really important, I think, for kids to cycle through the cardio equipment in the gym. Not every, you know, ninth and tth grade athlete is spending time on the cardio equipment because they're 15 and 16 year old kids. Uh, but they do need to
147learn how to use it so that way when they get older, they feel comfortable in a gym. Um, same thing with strength training. Um, you know, and I think, you know, even for some of our students that play more individual sports, um, the idea of of being able to play, you know, on a team where you're relying on people on the field or on the court, um, you know, the PE curriculum, there's a lot of breath to it. Um, I give our PE teachers a lot of credit. I think they really do a good job of teaching skills. You know, it's like PE the way that it's supposed to be done. Um, you know, and I think that our kids quite frankly would lose, uh, you know, a lot of the benefits of our PE
148curriculum if we allowed, you know, I I love baseball. U, but I think there's a lot of things being taught in nth grade PE that I would have never picked up as a member of the baseball team. >> Well, that's changed a lot. Even in the last five years, it sounds like our PE curriculum has changed a lot. That sounds actually very good. So, thank you very much. I mean, we had dodgeball still five years ago. So, the fact that this is what the curriculum looks like now is a really big advancement. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Not to waste too much time, but thank you so much for that explanation. I really value physical education as part of our curriculum and for all the reasons that you said, thank you so much for supporting
149it. uh social studies uh changing the names of our government courses uh with the reduced in leveling um CP honors accelerated will now just become government and honors government. Uh title change of a course what was previously modern intellectual history will now become introduction to philosophy. it more accurately accounts for the course curriculum and also it's a significantly less confusing title uh for students. Uh partly why the course is not running this year. We had barely any students that signed up for it. Uh new course offering uh will be an elective course Philadelphia African-American history. This will be a half credit um uh course offering um designed to provide additional historical study opportunities for students and u hopefully it will also be uh kind of a gateway for students into our AP African-American studies uh
150program >> in world language. >> Can I ask a question? I have to. All right. the the Philadelphia African-American history. It it it will focus on things outside of Philadelphia, like in Delaware County, for instance, or is it just Philadelphia? >> I think it's I think it's dedicated to Philadelphia and and the history of Philadelphia. Let me >> Listen, I mean, we'll talk to you later about it. It's just I I think it should be a little broad. Philadelphia African-American history. It was a little off-putting for me if it was Pennsylvania African-American history, but I think um Philadelphia, Delaware County, Montgome, you know what I mean? Broadens the approach. And this is probably something for a discussion for another time. Um might be it appropriate. >> Would you like me to pull up the course
151description or my >> No, no, no. Let's move on. Let's move on. We'll talk about it later. >> Um >> Sorry. to completely understand and agree. I was actually going to ask something about the previous one, introduction to philosophy. Are you talking about like is it like modern political philosophy? What kind of I'm just trying to understand because you go from modern intellectual history to introduction to philosophy and philosophy is so broad. So I'm assuming what is >> again I think this title that previously I was there for for many years before um I was here uh did not accurately account for what the curriculum was. I think it was a title that was brought up to try to um entice students in and it kind of did the opposite of that. >> Totally enticed
152by intellectual history. I can I can see it. So um what I guess what I mean is for the philosophy and just so I can understand it. Are you thinking are we talking like Aristotle or are we talking more like a Spinosa or are we talking about a John Lock or whatever? I mean I'm just saying like are we thinking like are we thinking more like political or historic or what kind of thing just in general? >> Well, certainly I think more historical than political. Um I could pull up the course description for that if you live. >> We'll get you know what we'll we'll get a more robust description that I'll send out to the board uh about especially these last two classes. What does that mean? What will it look like to be
153able to provide? And I know Mr. Rimes Russell is willing to pull it up. We'll get it just I don't know that this is timely to go through but we'll before there's no action request. >> Well basically and I understand what you're saying. That's what I I'm looking at Mr. Doerty you know right lock Hobbs Rouso who are we going >> we'll get a more robust Yes. We'll get him a more robust description for you. >> Uh new course sorry moving on to world language. um a new course uh AP Spanish literature. So currently we have the AP Spanish language. Uh this would be an additional course uh to provide opportunities for students to continue beyond especially now with the opportunity for students to double up in languages they theoretically could finish AP Spanish language
154in their sophomore year. Uh so this gives an opportunity to go even beyond that. um courses that alternate every other year. So the lemon uh courses this year we'll be offering uh Europe and African subsahara. Um the sorry for next year we'll be offering those currently we are teaching Canada and North Africa. So these always rotate every other year. Uh similarly the Elmundo courses uh next year we will offer Mexico and Peru and Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic. We're currently offering Spain and Cuba and Argentina and Chile. And that is all of the new slash changed course titles. Can I um ask a question about um I noticed the there was a a year-long bio AP bio chem. So that is different in the sense that they had taken it so that it was
155essentially one and a half courses for bio and AP bio and and chem and AP chem. Now it's going to be two full courses for that. So, we're increasing the science requirements. And I know I raised this question last year about our science requirements, and Bill and Joe had asked me to raise it this year when it's brought up. So, now that it's changed again, I really want to ask this very fundamental question. Our kids who go into sciences and engineering, the schools want to see the following three courses: AP bio, AP Chem, and AP Physics. And our students have to take environmental science, bio, AP bio, chem, AP chem, and then physics. They have to take six courses to get to the big three. It's a lot. I know we've added this more more
156space with the four credits per semester, but we're the only district entire state of Pennsylvania that requires environmental science. I've asked so many times and I've never really gotten an answer on why that is. No one's ever said why every student in our school, but no other school in the state of Pennsylvania really needs to take this course in order to be successful when they graduate after Penrest. We are the only ones. We're the only we're one of the only schools where our students don't take the biology Keystone in 9th grade. They take it in 10th grade. I'm not opposed to being different, but it's a really big hurdle for our science students and scheduling. And so I'm going to ask the question, why do we think that every single student in our course needs
157to take a second year of earth science? That means the curriculum is exact. >> I mean, Shel, I I get I know you've brought this up before um but I I don't know if this is the appropriate time to debate about environmental science and the requirements because this is just an update of the guide. If we are doing >> will we change the science requirements? But if we are doing uh if we are discussing the changes right of the course requirements then I think it's relevant and people well they're basically changing the names. >> No the science for for AP bio now is not a course and a half it's two courses and chemistry is not a a course and a half it's two courses. So we are definitely changing it per this guide right
158now. But okay, if we could I I do want to just clear up some confusion and and I don't want to get into the the other piece of the debate, but for that piece right there um currently this year we offer AP bio combined with bio. It is a two credit course offering that the title of it is um honors bio and AP bio combined. It's it's really wonky how it's simuner. Sim similarly there's a two credit course offering this year that students are taking that is called honors chemistry and AP chemistry combined. What we are doing is for next year we're we're getting rid of that combined piece and just saying it is AP biology for two credits and AP chemistry for two credits. Um it's it's the same format that the course is
159offering you right now. Um it did slightly change for this current year from the previous year where students had uh two classes and then they utilized the every other day IE to to um uh get in the rest of the course offering for the AP bio piece. >> But that was updated >> going into this current year because of the block schedule. We had the the ability to do that. Right. One of the >> quick one of the things that helped push us in that direction, um, you know, College Board lays out for every course that they offer an equivalency. >> Um, AP Bio and AP Chemistry are the only two courses where the equivalency is a full year of college level. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so there are other schools in the Central
160League, you know, some of our neighboring schools, certainly other schools around Pennsylvania. um that regardless of when you take AP bio or AP chemistry, it's a two credit course. I think where our students are right now is, you know, in the past prior to block scheduling, um you know, no kids, we always had the AP chemistry uh combined as an offering. It never ran. Um it's running this year in the block. Um, in the past, kids were not getting AP Chem until senior year, and our AP chem numbers were really small because of that. Um, we're seeing growth in AP chemistry. Uh, we're I think we're going to continue to see more growth. Um, and then the fact that students will be able to have AP biology, AP chemistry completed by the end of their
161junior year while also being able to begin their tra, you know, their path in physics. Um and students can take a number of physics courses at this point. Um you know and our students are are already doing that. Um you know I think that we're going to see more and more of our engineering minded kids where three four years ago you're right they were not getting you know they were getting into physics but they were kind of losing some of the tech the teched side of it the architecture that's that piece. Um those kids are also starting to find themselves down in the tech wing more. um which I think is going to pay, you know, dividends. Kids that are going for engineering, yeah, they should be living and breathing physics and calculus, but they
162should also be with Doug Graham and Lindsey Wolf, you know, learning architecture, uh learning, you know, the, you know, all the 3D work and just good oldfashioned, you know, get their hands dirty in the wood and metal shop. Um, so I feel like, you know, the the ability to take things in the block, um, the ability to say, you know, we're not forcing you, uh, to take, you know, bio in 10th grade and then even if we, you know, regardless of grade, the ability to double up in those things in one year. Um, you know, the students will have their math requirements, you know, in place. I also think that, you know, one of the things that we're seeing is um the way that not just kids think about their course selection, but the way
163that we think about course selection is rapidly changing with the new schedule. And so I think we're going to start to see more and more kids who in their sophomore or junior year are taking chem and physics at the same time. You know, the schedule allows for them to do that. Um, and my experience in other schools with the block schedule, you know, that's what we got to see. Um, especially we'll get back to a point where kids are completing calc AB and BC. Um, some of them, you know, by the end of their junior year, they're going to have openings, um, you know, to take these courses. Um, you know, certainly the, you know, the the environmental piece, um, you know, it's maybe a discussion for another day. U, there's a lot of schools
164that don't do environmental in nth grade that do other courses in nth grade. um you know so it's little potato potato maybe um and if we didn't offer that in ninth grade a lot of our kids would circle back to that after they were done you know anyway so >> so that's my question is and it could be a conversation for another day when I raised it last year I was told wait till next year to have this conversation we're really focusing on getting the block scheduling out so I'm waiting and here we are at the discussion so I feel like it does warrant the discussion since I was it was recommended that I do this year. >> I guess it's just that we're not going to do it right now, right? I don't I
165sort of remember Well, we can talk to the board and see what the interest is and >> so if I'm interested in I think I should question address >> need to finish, right? We're not if you began talking about environmental science and I know you wrapped other stuff in there. environmental science, that issue is a hot button issue and we deserve to make sure that that information is available to the community so they can come and discuss it so the board is informed about it because not everybody knows. I get what you're saying. I I sort of remember the discussion, but right now we're not going to be able to talk about environmental science as a requirement. I think that is >> well that's the thing. No, I'm not in any way suggesting we don't
166offer it, but making it a requirement is a whole different ballgame. >> And I understand and that's a discussion that we'll have to have later. I will talk to Dr. Malage and figure out where this could fit in um for I guess next year. Um >> Okay. So, last year we were told we would discuss it this year for next year. that to me cuz I mean we had a well we need to move on but we did have uh what do we have a retreat and we talked about some of the issues. I don't remember that coming up but if we need to maybe we can >> I didn't raise it as an issue because I was told we would talk about it this year at this meeting at this discussion. >> You didn't
167tell me I can't say anything. >> Oh I'm sorry. I don't that wasn't something that I remember that was told to me. I'm telling you now cuz we need to move on. It's like 9:00 and we still got we got finance and human resources and yeah, we got the rest of the agenda. >> Questions about whether or not theater should be English and whether or not AP research should be English. I think I should be able to ask my questions. >> And you did. And you did. And I'm telling you, we're moving on because we're not going to have an in-depth discussion about environmental science being a requirement. Not here and not now. We need >> it seems like not ever. >> Okay. Well, we'll talk about it. I'm I'm telling you now. Everybody hears
168me that we will I will talk to Dr. Malage, whoever we need to, and figure out where it can fit in because it is not sort of ask a question and get an answer immediately. It is something that's going to take time and I know the community wants to have a voice in it and other board members want to be prepared to have a discussion. So that's what I'm saying that's coming from me. I will make sure that it fits in. I don't know where it will fit in but we will have a discussion about it. That's all I can say. But we do need to move on. I I will just say that I'm interested in the pathway to through the sciences coming from the perspective of having been at a college for many
169years that there's always a concern that high schools are not successfully meeting the needs of incoming freshmen to colleges in the sciences in particular. So it'd be great to have uh a time in a work session to understand how we manage the science path overall and if environmental science is part of that that would be that would be part of it I would think. >> Okay. All right. Are we good with the presentation? >> That concludes my presentation for this evening. >> You sure? >> All right. Thank you. [laughter] >> Thank you everyone. >> Next up we have finance and operations. What point number two? Oh, look at us. Uh oh. Oh, okay. Who are they? We have uh Mike Nolan and uh Dennis Feny. >> Good evening. I just have one capital project item
170for you tonight for your review and approval. And on November 21st, we had a bid opening for our summer 2026 HBAC project at Media and Indian Lane. And you have the bid tab. Oh, okay. So, these are the low biders. Um, if you can open the bid tab below, do you have the hope tab? down. >> Yes, thank you. As you can see, we had a lot of competition, a lot of interest in the project and with the budget, we were able to do the base bid for both schools and all of the alternate bids, [snorts] which will definitely improve our systems. But our total budget was 10,854750. The contract award was 10,236. So we're about $618,000 under budget at this point. Yes. >> We were very excited when the bids were open. We recommend
171award to the low bidders. Um, >> sounds great. >> And Mike Mechanical who did last summer's projects for HVAC. Uh, AJM Electric and Donald E. Reinger. These are all contractors we are familiar with and done good work for us. We recommend the award. >> Correct. >> So, they're all it's under budget. They've done work for us. It's gone well. We're happy. So, >> thank you. >> Okay. Okay. Just want to make sure I'm understanding everything there. There's no shoe to fall. So, okay. >> All right. Thank you. [laughter] >> Splash. >> Right. [laughter] Mike. >> So items B through G are all capital projects that were approved at the previous meeting. These are just going through the prices trying to get proposals so that we can move on. So if there are no questions, then
172we'll just move on with doing purchase orders. Once the once they're approved again next week, we'll just go forward with doing purchase orders and moving on with these projects. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Stole my thunder. >> No, it's no. >> I think that's all we have. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Thank you. >> Thank you for being patient. >> We here for morals supporting. >> Thank you. >> So the act one resolution, this is the time of the year where we'll approve the resolution that says that when we're doing through the bud the excuse me the budget process, we will not increase taxes over the 3.5 act one index rate set by the state. So it doesn't lock us in. It's not saying we're going to increase taxes by
1733.5. It's just saying that we're not going to go above that. So which we've done the past five or six years. >> Can I ask if um that's going to become that's we're going to vote on that this month, right? >> Correct. >> So is there a way to use that as an opportunity to mention that we actually raised taxes much less than that in this past year? because I don't think we ever publicized the fact that >> that the rate was 1 point something rather than >> Yeah. It was it was well below what we even approved >> originally. >> Yes. >> So can we public can we >> Yeah. >> And you can >> Yeah. >> Depending on how you want to do it. >> Yes. >> Okay. Yeah. I think we have
174There you are. >> Somebody else will remember this better than me, Jackie. >> I don't know. >> Oh, really? Oh, I missed it then. >> We approved a certain number, but then we didn't raise taxes as much as that >> past. However, >> no, that's different. So, so tell you. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't need to explain it now. Okay. Um item J. Scroll up. Sorry. And then click. Yes. Flowchart. Yes. So J is just the flowchart of the meetings which we do this every year. We show the green are PTE requirements. The blue are our meeting dates and we just set up how we'll um do the budget presentations going forward. >> No questions. We'll just >> let's just tell out that special work session. >> Okay. So the special work session which
175we have been dedicating to budget is March 2nd of 2026 which what day? Do you know the day of the week? I didn't look. Sorry. >> Is that on the calendar? It's on the calendar. >> Yes, it is on the new Monday. Okay. And the other items on the agenda, we have a entertainment contract, arbiter sports subscription, which is how we pay the game workers, a videographer services for the high school musical. So, those will also be on the agenda next week for approval. We have a couple of budgetary transfers. There are no budgetary comparison reports because today is the first and we don't have bank statements yet. So when we get them, we'll prepare it and send in one to everyone. Any questions? All right. Thank you, Dr. Scott. We'll move to education and
176wellness. There are two items listed. both from student services. Hi everyone. Uh the two items that are from student services. The first is to uh ratify a contract with the pathway school. It's important to note that it the student has received a 4010 slot from the uh Commonwealth. So, a significant portion of that tuition is paid through state funding. Uh and then the second item from student services is in response to a hearing officer's order to satisfy that um and resolve uh any issues uh with the family regarding placement for this year. and the uh two uh attorney's fees that are required to to be paid. Any questions from the board? >> Okay. Thank you. >> All right. Moving on. Human resources. We have uh Dr. Saladino's here. >> Good evening everyone. Uh for um
177human resources, we have a number of routine items uh on the agenda. We have uh some resignations that we've received for uh some staff members as well as some appointments of some new staff members who are going to be starting. Uh we do have the approval of a leave of absence for one of our staff members and a couple of supplemental contracts that uh just sort of like finalizing some positions that we had available. Um just a handful of routine items. Any questions? >> Thanks so much. >> All right. Thank you. Uh we'll move down to the policy committee policies for discussion. >> Thanks Dr. Williams. Uh we had a um our last policy meeting uh was two Mondays ago. Um seems like a lot longer [laughter] ago. Uh but it was on the 17th
178of November. Um we had good discussion, continue to have good discussion. our uh colleagues from Fox Rothschild have been joining us um which has provided some um really in-depth perspective on the nexus of some of the policies and what appropriate language that we can use and great discussion from the board members. So for uh this month um we have second reading of two policies. One is on student discipline. The other is on the generative AI which is a policy. In fact, there was a little bit of discussion earlier this evening about the development of that policy. Um first reading about school district searches which was just a review of a policy that that had not been reviewed in quite some time. And then we've had ongoing discussion or having ongoing discussion about public participation in
179board meetings, diabetes management. Um and then having discussion about a civility policy which currently we do not have. Uh but we've been having some discussion about the value of one and what does that mean? Not because there currently aren't any issues. There's not, you know, all districts went through a number of issues over the last five, six years. Um but as we've talked about where we are in the world, this has been a good discussion for us. We do have policy committee meeting this coming Monday on the 8th. Uh it's always the Monday prior to the legislative meeting. We'll have the agenda. Uh on the agenda will be the um the discussion policies. There'll also be a couple of new ones um for us to discuss that'll then carry over after the first of the
180year. >> Question. >> Um so when we do policy um a lot of the policies that we've seen the the pieces have already been created. So when it says the board directs the administration to blah blah blah blah, it's it's actually already a thing. >> It is. >> But with this with the AI policy, it's not. So is there like an accountability for a timeline? And I know we have all of that other stuff coming up, but are we putting the cart before the horse? Like what like you know, we're going to pass this AI policy, but then like within what kind of time frame are we going to see some of the directives in this policy? So, there will have to be an administrative regulation that is written to go along with that that
181deals with some of the direct implementation, what the day-to-day looks like. Um, we'll have to take a look at it again on Monday and see what that looks like about are there specific time frames that need to be included in there or are there um sunrise and sunsets of certain things about when they go into effect? >> We asked to pass this before we know that. Is that right? >> Yes. Yeah. We expect we'll have to come back and revise this policy. I mean that's been part of the discussion. Yeah. You know if you remember over the last 15 months we've had the discussion do we wait on the policy? Do we >> No. And I'm glad that we're putting something into place. I was just wondering just really more with regard regard to how
182policy works like you know what part we can put far in advance of the next part and then how do we know that you know is there a time frame that goes along with the next part kind of coming up >> and the pieces specifically if you're curious. Yes. I'm trying to picture my mind. >> The board directs the students receive age appropriate instruction on the proper use of AI tools. So like that's something that has to be developed. Like a lot of the pieces in here still need to be developed. >> Yes. I'm sorry. And just to respond to that, right? That's exactly what I was referring to earlier. So um you know, we've put into motion researching that and seeing what that curriculum would look like. But again, when you start a course,
183not only does it decide where you're going to put it, who's going to teach it, and how. So there's and the curriculum. So there's a lot of pieces to that. So yeah, that is in process, but we're in the very initial stages of that. And certainly, um, as we talked, we weren't sure whether to balance, you know, waiting on that to approve the policy, but that could take a long time, right? >> No, I agree with having a policy in place. I I think I thought the policy might reflect different AI concerns. Um uh and I'm not certainly trying to rush anything or you know stamp my foot in any way. That's not it. I really was confused about well if we put this in place we're passing a policy for something that's coming how
184far down the road because I know there's a lot of work that will need to go into developing the pieces uh that are stated in this policy. Thank you. Um let me see if I can clear. Are you looking for remember we said we have to do these sessions with people and get better consensus. So you're looking for the timeline for the next steps. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Some Yes, sure. >> So, there's also I wanted to if anybody hasn't taken a look at 218, um I would love for everybody to take a look or a second look at it. This policy with the increase in age of um tobacco purchase in the state of Pennsylvania about 5 years ago to 21. This policy reflects the changes to the law that you know in
185the past there was more leeway about contacting um lo legal authorities and according to the state law and what uh Fox Roth child has shared with us also we don't have leeway anymore. If somebody breaks the law we have to there's no exceptions anymore. And so it'll be a big change for our students and our families, but also I just wanted to make sure everybody is aware of how different that looks now for student discipline. I we're going to have a discussion today about the um searches and particular the use of uh dog searches in policy 216 school district searches. Uh, one of the things that we spent time talking about during the during the committee meeting um was about the use of dogs and bringing dogs in to search in buildings. Um, standard language
186that comes from PSBA includes that as an option. Uh if you go into the document that is embedded in the agenda um down on see the third page uh it is highlighted about K9 searches. K9 searches have not been done or used here in the district in a significant number of years. >> Five six seven years maybe >> six seven >> that was my my first year on the board. It was a very memorable experience. >> Yes. I remember many conversations >> about a contract, right? About whether or not to renew a contract with a company. >> Exactly. And I was told that the dog was very friendly and the children like the dog and thought perhaps we could have a higher standard for >> was that was the conversation that we had at the
187meeting, Susan, that exact conversation and that person is no longer operating that business. self. >> So, we don't have the dogs coming anymore. >> We have not. It's It's permissible by the policy. So part of the discussion that we had um is at least sitting at the table now there isn't anybody that that intends to bring dogs into sniff or drugs where it becomes a gray is if there is um what is believed to be a substantiated bomb threat there's a chance we will need to bring dogs in to sniff the school um to do that. That's just a a safety and security to sweep the building to go through which is one of the things that's permitted in order to attempt to reduce discourage the presence uh of weapons controlled substances goes through all
188the different pieces that are there. um you know >> maybe >> please maybe these uh shouldn't be combined in the same policy then if that's the confusion I I mean I understand if we're looking for a bomb but not if we're >> and part of the conversation was too is if there was um if there were a bomb threat then we certainly wouldn't be in charge of >> what's happening there Right. Police >> feel better than send you. It's it's some Yeah, it's a third party. Like >> I won't be at the door telling the police. >> No, sorry. [laughter] >> As a district, we don't intend to bring dogs in. That's the intention. >> So, so the highlighted portion is new being deleted. What What is that representing? We highlighted in here because we
189have the discussion with the board about do we want to have this in here. So and part of the discussion was do we leave it in and not use it >> right >> or do we take it out or do we take it out completely that was that was the conversation of policy committee part of it >> we know that there were there were there has been strong discussion and strong feelings about it which is why policy committee wanted it to come here for a larger >> I would like to take I would like to remove it I'm on the side of remove >> and okay so if we're having that conversation yeah I Yeah, >> I would remove it. >> Okay. I I say do not remove it. >> Do not remove it. >>
190I I think that you never know what situations are going to come about. And we need to be prepared adequately to deal with it. I don't think it's any we don't bring the dogs anymore. This was a big discussion what seven years ago. Um, but you never know when it may be needed. So if we don't have these dogs coming in and sniffing the air, vehicles, book bags, cars, but maybe in two years there's something going on or five years. I think we need to be prepared. >> That one of the other things Dr. Absolutely as you're talking about that came through in the discussion is and I again my understanding I was not here but for the history of it is because a contract to bring some for us to bring somebody in we
191have to have a contract with them right we just I'm just not going to call somebody and say bring your dog over there's got to be a contract you know the the board had the power to stop that from happening by not voting to support the contract being approved right contracts have to come to the board for action you So >> we may need a contract >> and this is exactly the conversation we have. We may need a contract someday. So we keep it in the policy because if we are going to exercise this right, it would still require the approval of a board or a contract. And that's a one cycle review rather than two and a half month cycle. We can get a contract at a work session and into legislative if we
192needed one on an urgent basis in a two and a half week time period, but to get the policy changed, it almost goes through two and a half months to get it done. That's that was the rationale for potentially keeping it in. And >> okay, because if we take it out, then it would take it's >> then it would take two and a half months to get back. >> Correct. So if we leave it in, we still have to have a a a contract that would be approved and agreed upon by the board on the scope of the search, who would do it, what kind of dogs it was, etc. and etc. But if we take it out and we then sometime at some point need to use it, it would take much longer to
193try to implement it. >> And so I certainly understand and agree that I I was hasty in saying I don't want necessarily all of it, but that is a lot. That's a lot for having I mean if all we need is to make sure we have the door open which I understand if we need it. This feels way too long and detailed for everything else. Um you know a dog's alert is determined by the handler constitutes reasonable suspicion. If the dog's alert points to a particular item or place a student that seems like a lot more than what we would actually want in policy. I can understand saying you know that you periodically it's a situation the second paragraph but beyond that I think it's a lot for policy >> also and I pardon me
194because I don't know how this works with the law but I understand that we would have to have a contract to have a dog come in but like what if a principal had a suspicion and called the cops for some reason and they brought a dog in like is that a thing that could that couldn't happen? So the now the the police couldn't come in. It's a it's a different threshold for us as academics or as as school administrators than it is for the police to do a search. >> It's been I mean that's Supreme Court all that kind of stuff has gone through. >> So the police if there's a a bomb threat then the police will come in no matter what our policy is with a dog. Right. But if it's you >>
195I I confirm that. I I believe yes. >> Okay. So that would be good to know. And also even >> children in the building if there's a bomb, right? >> No. >> So then >> well the dog is by itself sniffing around, right? >> Yeah. >> But this is for stu this is for if there are students here. >> But so say a student drops a baggie of drugs inadvertently in a classroom on the way out. The teacher notices it, notifies the principal there would be students in the school even if we called the state police. >> Not bringing a dog for that. >> Yeah. No. Right. and and our policy does does our policy doesn't impact that, right? I mean, that's what I want to understand. What does does our policy impact the behavior
196of the police? And also, even if we don't have this in the policy in that example, they still we still couldn't bring in a dog because we don't have a contract. So, so there's no instant use of a dog as we're contemplating here. I mean, at the very least, this should be a very broad, you know, we're allowed to have we're allowed to eventually authorize dog searches, and there should be a policy. I mean, there should be a a regul a regulation on that. But I I don't even see why we why we wouldn't, you know, just take it out and and have the polic, you know, be prepared to pass a policy. And that's kind of what I'm saying is that if we wanted to somehow and I obviously we'd have to wordsmith it
197incorporate just the second paragraph to say periodically I would even get rid of the word periodically. I would actually start with as the situation warrants. You could have this as an opening and I would get rid of I would recommend based on this looking getting rid of the rest. It just feels way too much detail for a policy. Um >> even as the situation warrants. Yeah. I guess I mean just because >> that gives you the open and we could word smmith it but I'm just saying in the event that the dogs alert is appointed to a locked vehicle the owner like way too much um a dog's alert is determined by the handler I just feel like that gets us more in the weeds of regulations and other things if all the goal is
198to have the window of opening if we need it right based on that. Fair enough. A part that um concerns me is the reasonable suspicion like who determines that um you know medical symptoms. So, does that mean a kid with special needs is acting in a certain way and then you think it's suspicious and then they get a dog, you know, sniffing around them for something? Like, who determines what is suspicious and like whether it warrants calling the people to bring a dog in? So just in terms of of day-to-day operation of the school, reasonable suspicion ultimately would be determined by the administrator who's in charge, right? The assistant principal or the principal and again as a for instance to look in a kid's locker or to go through a kid's backpack. It would fall
199to them to make that determination. Um school teacher, you know, based on our policy can't do that. It has to be the administrator that's there, you know, to do it. >> Principal or >> principal, assistant principal. >> So, it sounds like maybe some people are good with keeping it in but shrinking it, right? or and the other side is >> so my reason for removal is because policy speaks to the values of the community and I think there has been um historical usage of dogs to intimidate people and so to me I don't think we need dogs that we have plenty of other resources to search uh you know find where things could be lucky kids are putting things on their bodies. You can't even use the dog for that anyway. Um, so to me,
200it doesn't seem worth it if we're talking about policy being a value that the community, this board holds. I think that's a great point, Jackie, and that makes me want to ask our superintendent, an assistant superintendent, from your standpoint, what which way I know it's our policy, but really, what's your opinion on this? I I don't think dog searches in schools for drugs serve any beneficial purpose. I don't I just don't I just don't think it's real. Um I think it's performative at best, you know, in terms of of what you're going to get out of it. I've worked in schools in the past, you know, where dogs came in and did lockers and, you know, other than taking a lot of time because there were hits on lockers that there was nothing in there
201was a smell on a bag, there was a smell on a coat, you know, or something like that enough to trigger a dog, but there wasn't, you know, um I also don't know that traditionally what the, you know, many of us sitting around the table, what our generation, you know, considers that the dogs are looking for or what children are actually using and what's going on today. >> You know, >> I just think it's um an antiquated process. Um and as we talked a little bit about in policy, um students know, right? like students know like we used to use this as a sobriety checkpoint and that was the that but again like even the way clothes school bags are designed kids if kids really want to bring something to school they keep it on
202their person and they know that and we're never going to use a dog to you know um approach a child right that's never going to happen so I again I think it's just an antiquated method um I think that um Yeah, I just think the needs of our community are a little bit different than they were in the past. >> And oh, I'm sorry. I just want to say thank you so much for that. I do agree with Jackie. I I would be fine with the removal of this language about the dogs, period. Um, yeah, I I guess uh I don't know where we go from here exactly in terms of, you know, but I I do think I think a part of it and maybe a condensed part should be in there only because
203some of the things you said about the community changing and evolving and the issues and threats that we may face. I mean, as long as we have something in there about dogs that's very condensed, it'll be easier for us to move forward instead of putting something back in. I mean, I do see both sides >> except that if the community or the threat changes, this could be added back in. There's nothing that says this >> it'll take longer to do. That's the point, right? if it takes two and a half months to put it back in when if it's in, we can be more dynamic in dealing with whatever threat may come and maybe nothing will come. >> But any any threat or community change is going to not be overnight, >> but we will
204see it coming, right? >> I don't know. I'm going to I'm going to challenge you on that. How many heard about the tick tock Jenner girl lips thing and all these kids landing in the hospital in a week's time period because they were all going to follow that or the tide pod challenge. I think that things can change in dangerous ways really quickly. Somebody all of a sudden decides, hey, we should all be bringing anthrax to school. Guess what? A dog can sniff that out really fast. We we don't have any way of doing you. I just say you never really know what's going to happen. And social media has accelerated every trend for good and evil. They, you know, kids were tearing sinks off our bathroom walls because the Tik Tok challenge told them
205to do it. I just feel like I don't really want to ever have to review a contract about dogs. I really don't. But as a safeguard, I'm not sure what it hurts. And if no if everybody in the community knows we haven't used dogs in the last five years and the last dog we had was really cute and the kids did like the dog. I can't imagine that the community would look upon this unfavorably if we're really talking about the safety and well-being of students in extreme circumstances. And I maybe we can relook at this because even the way it reads, it reads more to again like looking to catch students doing something, right? And that's how it reads. But what we're talking about is really the general welfare of our school. So maybe we
206could reword it somehow to um be shorter. I agree. It sounds more like a regulation in some places than it does a policy, but maybe we should be talking more about facilities than students or, you know, or just the general welfare. >> Yeah. But this is a student searches policy. So that's that's my other question is if we say nothing about if we remove the section, does that stop us? Does that stop the school from bringing in dogs? It just doesn't say we have a pol, you know, we're not saying no dogs allowed. Well, yeah. >> Can we still call the police like if we have concern? >> Is it a Is there another place? I We will look I'll consult with our Fox Roth tribe folks. >> One of the new board members had
207a question. Let it go ahead. didn't you want to say something? >> So if there was this extreme case, couldn't we call the police and have them search? Like why do we need to have a contract for dogs if in that situation most of the time the police will be called anyway? >> That's true. >> And honestly, if it's about drugs, they're not going to bring a dog in. They're going to they're going to remove the child, you know, and go from there and then get the stuff, you know, whatever it may be. But I think Ten bring up a good point. This is a first read. So, you guys want to go back and figure this out and bring it back and >> should we do like a like a potential >> read of
208the board of I mean there's >> Okay. All right. Who wants to condense it? Keep it in and condense it. Anybody? >> Really? Really? >> Condense it. Keep it something about dogs. Maybe somewhere else. What? But condense it the language. One, two. Anybody else? >> Maybe somewhere else. But >> maybe somewhere else. >> I think it should be somewhere else in school safety. Some of our safety practices >> condensed. Maybe in school safety practices. Anybody? Anybody else? >> Yeah. All right. That's just four people. >> Four. >> So four, right? Carlen, Susan, me, and Shelly. So, it looks like it's coming out. >> We'll we'll adjust it for the meeting on Monday, and then when the agenda posts next Wednesday, uh, for the legislative meeting, it'll show the revision for the second read and for
209the vote. >> I would still like to make sure that the >> Never mind. The police that the police can the police If there's an issue, I will >> and also there's nothing preventing us from again revisiting placing this in another place at a later date. So, it won't necessarily preclude the rest of us from approving it with the understanding we could always raise it later elsewhere. >> Yes. And it'll take longer to do, but that's okay. >> I'm just saying it's not fatal. >> Dogs here apparently. >> So, all right. I think that is the end of our meeting. >> All right. Have a good night.