001[music] Heat. Heat. So, um, we're excited to be able to discuss, um, kind of our grading practices, uh, with the school board, uh, and how they align to standards. Um, if you'll give us, uh, just a little bit of time, uh, we'd love to just kind of provide some context, a little bit of history at the elementary level, a little bit of history about the secondary process. Uh we'd like to talk about some key challenges that we've had over the last few years with implementation uh and some of the the um strategies we've used to overcome those and then uh finally just talk about next steps as we move forward. So if you'll give us just a few minutes to kind of set the stage then we would entertain a fully robust conversation thereafter. Um
002so just a a quick history on the why you know um um high quality grading practices it's been a conversation for 40 50 years uh the first books were published in the 80s uh and have subsequently gained traction across the United States in lots of different places. Uh and the goal is mainly to align instruction to the standards and give good feedback to students on their progress. Um in fact our policies and these were essentially written in the early 2000s um indicate the same base instruction on district academic standards align curriculum with the standards effectively measure each student's progress towards achieving the standards. So that's OE1 23 and 4. So that's um one of the places where we get our direction for some of these things. Um we want to also accurately reflect student achievement.
003So if students are doing well, they should get feedback on that and know that they are if they aren't the same. Uh we want to be able to communicate clearly both to students uh and to parents. And uh we want to ensure that there's as much similarity between classrooms as possible as well. If you're in an algebra classroom with Mrs. Johnson and somebody else is in an algebra classroom uh with Mr. Smith, we would want, you know, there to be some comparability. It's not random luck who you get uh in terms of what your grade turns out to be. So that's just a little like highle background for standards and how it uh impacts uh schools uh and our our timeline there. But I'll turn it over to uh um Shelley Shur. She has been
004involved in standards grading for many many years and assessment uh and just wanted to talk about it from the elementary perspective because we've been doing that for a long time. >> Long time. Well, good evening. Uh, thank you for inviting us tonight to talk to you about standardsbased learning and grading here in the school district of Lacrosse. And I'm going to share with you, as Dr. Ingram mentioned, um, an overview of our journey with standardsbased learning and grading at the elementary level. And so, as he mentioned, this is a journey that began about 20 years ago for us. Um, so back in the early 2000s, our elementary schools along with many others in the region began exploring how to make learning expectations clearer for our students and for our families. And at that time, many
005educators in our region participated in extensive training at CISA with educational leader Ken O' Conor and whose work focused on connecting grading practices to what students were actually learning. And from that work came a significant shift in how we thought about teaching, learning and communicating progress. Our teachers identified essential standards or our most critical learning goals or expectations in each subject and then they described them in studentfriendly language. At our level, we call them I can statements. For example, a learning goal in math might be, I can solve word problems using addition and subtraction within 100. These statements are designed to be used as instructional tools, shared and displayed in classrooms so that students always know what they are learning and what success looks like. During instruction, teachers should be referencing the IEN statements regularly,
006helping students understand where they are at in learning. And most importantly, this work shifted our focus from simply documenting grades to supporting learning and growth over time. Students earliest practice attempts weren't held against them, and instead teachers provided feedback and multiple opportunities to demonstrate mastery. This was a major change for us as we recognize that learning can and should continue beyond the end of the unit assessment and that learning essential standards should continue until mastery is achieved. Our goal is always to help each student reach their learning target. A common phrase that we use is learning is the constant and time is the variable. Our report report cards also changed to reflect our focus on learning. We moved away from traditional learning grades and began using performance descriptors such as emerging, developing, and proficient to
007reflect how students were performing relative to the end of the year standard. Early on, after hearing from parents who wanted to know whether their child was on pace during the year, we added an additional mark at the elementary level called on track, which we use midyear when reporting progress. This indicates that a student is progressing appropriately and if they continue at this pace, they will meet the end of the year standard. In 2022, we updated our report cards and essential standards once again as a re result of ongoing work at determining priority standards and learning progressions within those standards. Our report card is now written using our student and familyfriendly I can statements. We also recognize that success extends beyond academic standards. And as a result, we report separately on work habits and social development
008because we know these are equally important life skills such as working to the best of our ability, following directions, actively participating, demonstrating emotional management and problem solving skills. We strongly believe that these contribute to student success both in school and beyond. And these standards when reported to parents are based on developmental expectations rather than an endofthe-year standard. For example, listening attentively is different for a kindergartener than it is a fifth grader. So our standardsbased learning and grading work has created consistent and student centered approach that helps students to understand what they are learning, families to see student growth over time, and teachers to focus on what matters most, supporting each child's learning journey. And so I'm going to pass it over to Stacy to share the secondary school's journey. And we do appreciate at the
009elementary level the ongoing work that secondary is doing to provide that consistency between elementary and secondary with respect to teaching and learning. >> I have a quick question. When did you switch um the report cards in elementary? Like how long ago was that? >> They were well when I came in 2010 they had been in use already for um a couple of years. >> Thank you. And every several years we also um will reflect on them and make changes as needed as we update our essential standards and our learning. >> And that adjustment that we talked about in 2022, we simplified. We had we had a a report card that had way too many standards. It was multiple pages and we heard from our parents that we really would like fewer standards in simpler language
010that we can understand. So we moved to per content area about four to six standards and then also moved and aligned to those I can statements that we use with students um because we figured if our students can understand them then they can explain them also um to their parents. >> Are they connected to um the Wisconsin state standards like those six standards might be anchored? >> Yeah. So, at the elementary, we actually have a spreadsheet that has all of our standards um at the elementary level per content area. Obviously, there's a lot. Then we take it and break it down further into the essential standards. And then we take it and break it down further into and so like when I say break it down, we identify the smaller number of essential standards. We
011do break those down into substandards learning part of our learning progressions but then we begin to combine those into the I can statements that um are reflected in class and also reflected on the report card. So it starts large, it goes smaller, it branches out a little bit more with the learning progressions um of the subsklls that go into that standard, but then it goes back into the I can statements um that are reflected in our report card. >> When you say we like how many teachers are are in this process >> by in this process like involved in this? Um so every content area has a different group of teachers that work um worked on identifying the essential standards. Um with respect to like the learning progression um we've done some of that during
012staff development where all of our teachers were involved in that work. And so it depends on whether you're working on curricular work um as a smaller committee or um also at times in in professional development where we bring it to the whole entire group. >> Question. >> We just wanted to prove to you that we listened. >> Okay. [laughter] Thank you for that. So So yes, Dr. Engel and and Shelley set the stage well. I think uh the changes at the secondary level of have come later. We we started this process I think in lacrosse boy in maybe more than 10 years ago but it's it's been slow. Uh we're in a good place now and part of what Shelley and Dr. Engle described I think about in in terms of the explosion of research
013that's occurred around teaching and learning practices and the knowledge we have about human be how human beings learn and how the assessment of learning has changed in terms of how we think about that um what is equitable and what is what is um what is going to motivate a learner who might not learn something the first time uh to want to learn it a second or third time uh that they're exposed. So at the secondary level, one of the things that we recognized is Wisconsin is known for having way too many standards for one teacher to cover in a particular course. And so this process of working with teachers by their content area um is is complex. teachers uh involved in professional learning communities, PLC meetings, collaborative meetings work with the director of curriculum and
014instruction, each other, me uh and other experts that we might consult with to sort of consolidate or condense those standards into um userfriendly essential standards and skills. So, it's I think of it a lot like when I went to math class, it was very different than when I tried to learn to swim. I I had a very specific uh card that described what I needed to be able to do to be able to swim. By the way, didn't do very well. Um but I was measured daily by my performance and I knew where I might not have been hitting the mark. Whereas in my math class growing up, I might have gotten a B or a C in the class, but no one really articulated to me from time to time what I really didn't
015understand on an assessment. So by and large the philosophy has changed in that manner. The reason for a standardsbased report card would be able it would be so that you as a parent and the student can really diagnose uh what standards a student might not be excelling in or what standards they might be excelling in. It helps you as families know what to concentrate on at home. It helps a student dig into something they might need different exposures to. Uh we recognize that one way of teaching may not work for all learners. So a lot of our work isn't about the grading per se, but rather about how we instruct and how we look for evidence of student learning. Not every student is a good test taker. So we look for other ways to observe
016and assess learning as as students grow in a particular classroom. So secondary sort of followed suit with the elementary but the work that that began at the elementary level wasn't intended just to be at the elementary. These are good practices for all learners even through postsecary school. Uh recently I found myself back in the classroom at Vurbo uh learning again and I was pleased to hear teachers talk about a different way of assessing learning. I can tell you that we the adults were the worst students. We wanted to know what our grades were too. What's my grade? and uh one professor just didn't have an answer until certain learning activities occurred. So that's one of the pinch points that um as we kind of prepared for this conversation tonight, we know that there's at least
017been five things we've identified that we've needed to improve upon and grading practices become more and more important as students move through the middle level into high school. As a principal uh long ago, I used to get the question a lot, okay, if you're going to do this standardsbased thing, do I still count for a a good student discount? Will my child still get that discount if you're going to use these these numbers? So, um I often had to expel that myth. Uh we at Lacrosse use a combination of proficiency scale numbers associated with the performance of learning with each student. Um, but we also transition that perform those numbers into grade letter grades which makes more sense to to parents. I think there might come a time where we won't want to convert any
018longer that that conversion in and of itself becomes confusing but today you will still see a final report card that shows a letter grade of A B C D and what we call any which is no evidence. Student can't really fail if they haven't performed. So, um, we've changed some of our language to again be more motivating for students. So, um, so many things I I could share with you, but I think tonight was meant to be a little more of a conversation than a presentation. Uh, but we know that one of the infamous questions was students want to know what their grade is. And through the different iterations of our our um practices, we didn't always have the calculator turned on. And that was done for good reason. We were we're learning to get
019away from the mean average, which as Shelley pointed out earlier, we don't want a student just because they didn't perform well on the first quiz, the first assignment, the first assessment, and then later who performs perfectly uh to be penalized for that. So the mean average can can be mean. It it can penalize a student who has simply accomplished that proficiency level over time. So we want to honor learning when it occurs. So the calculation changed which for good reason we turned the calculator off for a while. What we learned though is that's very time consuming for teachers and it also adds a layer of confusion for students when you can't see what the grade is. So we have turned that calculator back on and we have a variety of remedies uh for teachers to
020avoid just the mean average. uh we work with Skyward who has an algorithm and a quite a science to uh their calculators so that um students can avoid that mean average but rather see preponderance of evidence of learning over time. So that that was one pinch point that we have grown and learned from um that that concept of I don't know about any of you but I know even for me as a high school student uh as a college student if I side led up to my teacher or professor and said what's my grade today it wasn't uncommon for a teacher to become a little flustered not really know right imagine guessing maybe you've experienced that so standardsbased grading there be no mistake that isn't the reason that a student might not know their grade
021today. Um teachers are very busy people. Uh they are often coaching or representatives of clubs. Uh they may too get behind in entering grades. But nevertheless, the the practice that we uh recommend encourage teachers to follow is entering grades in the grade book for you and students to see on a weekly basis. um teacher might get behind, may actually be revising something in that grading book, which might be the reason that a student wouldn't know what his or her their grade is on a given day. Um but eventually a teacher is going to have to enter those grades because we have progress reports and parent conferences, family conferences whereby uh we have to communicate that grade. That's what the report card is meant to be, is communication uh and and time allowed for you to
022make amends before a final grade, right, is is rendered. And at the high school level, we know you're competing for scholarships and post-secary schools. So, that grade is going to be very important to you. Um, let's see. I know homework has been another concept. I would imagine this has been a concern even at the elementary level along with this explosion around how do we teach and learn um h is also this concept of well what is meaningful homework and how and if should it be graded I don't think anyone would argue that practice is is important right comment Owen >> sorry complaint about homework not being graded misses the point of the homework not in that it's trying to show that like, well, you're staying on top of it, but it's designed to help you
023learn the material so that when you perform on a test, you actually know what you're doing. >> So, if a student really needs more help with a concept, you'll give them either more worksheets or more help trying to teach them that material. But if a student understands what's going on and only really has to do a few problems to check up on understanding, especially for review material, there's no point in grading something that is frankly just kind of pointless to that student. >> Yeah, thank you. Couldn't have said that better myself. So, no one would argue that you need practice, but whether or not it's graded is has a lot of discretion with the teacher. uh we have really emphasized um the use of of a syllabus and a set of grading guidance for students
024uh and families to to understand how a teacher's landscape in a classroom is going to matter because how a math teacher might handle homework. I mean I don't know about you I used to get math homework every day and sometimes I didn't get it. So I wouldn't have wanted my teacher to count that against me. I would have wanted a chance okay I didn't understand my homework. will I have an opportunity to to learn again? So, a math teacher may not grade each homework assignment. Rather, they might cluster some of that work and look for evidence over time. Um, may look for performances in the math class as compared to other teachers who might not have a daily assignment. So, uh there's no one script for that. uh if I was uh my daughters have
025graduated, but if I was still watching how is my daughter graded in a classroom, I would be looking for that syllabus and the grading guidance that are decisions that teachers make with each other in their professional learning communities per content area. But um homework is really important. But the other if when I go to workshops, professional workshops, one of the things I hear and I know I'm was guilty of it as a parent myself, when homework is assigned, some students will have parents that can dig in and help and provide beautiful outcomes with that homework. Other students will not have that support. So we rely less on whether or not all students are going to learn on whether homework comes back high quality. Rather we look for that evidence in the classroom and provide practice
026time in the classroom. So sometimes especially at the elementary and middle level parents might say I don't get it. There's no work coming home. I want to see my student busy. Uh so uh that's just a new new concept. I think we encourage teachers to make sure there is opportunities for students to take work home, but it's not what we rely on for a grade. >> And teachers can indicate if homework is complete or not, right? So, there's a way for parent if that's a concern to them to make sure that their child's doing the work and keeping up on it, you can indicate that in the grade book. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. We use um Canvas is our learning management system in Lacrosse. And not every teacher uses Canvas in the same way, but
027that's another location where families can be watching on a daily basis and students for feedback as compared to a grade and they might actually know whether something is turned in on a daily basis and if there was a grade or or just simply marked done or not done. >> And you'd mentioned syllabuses. Another complaint we heard was uh students didn't know how they would be graded in a particular class and it would be it was confusing for for students for a little while and we if I'm not mistaken ensured that all teachers had a syllabus that explained how they were grading this year and >> right >> we >> I hear student I see students nodding have you seen better guidance in syllabuses from teachers? >> Um it really depends on the teacher and the
028subject. I know definitely in the core classes you're seeing a lot more syllabuses and a lot more information in those syllabuses but for other classes not as much but there's still a syllabus provided. >> Okay, it's good to know. I would say much the same that um a lot of the core areas because those are your your big ticket items. Uh they have very strong syllabus uh with this is my grading standard, this is the material we'll cover and it'll go in detail about what it takes to get that. But as you stray further and further from that, yes, it's still uh the required this is what you need for this grade, this is what this number means for your grade, it is less clear-cut. And I think it also [snorts] depends on what subject
029they teach because sometimes it's just not necessary. >> You started out talking about average mean and I like to tell this story. I once heard of a six-foot tall person who drowned in a pool at an average depth of two foot. >> That's a good one. >> [laughter] >> One was 10 foot, the other was one foot. The average depth was two foot and he was six foot. >> Another Oh, go ahead. >> Yeah, I would say as Cece was explaining some of the pinch points, we know that communication has been an area that we certainly have developed over the last few years, we've worked with our administrators, our teachers, our content coordinators, our learning lab leaders to have um more conversation around. Uh we call it our standardsbased huddle. we come together, we meet,
030and we work through some of these pinch points. So, I'd say we there's been quite a bit of growth over the last year, year and a half in regards to some of the systems. We've moved from having our grades in Canvas into Skyward. Um, we've cleaned up essential standards and the language that staff are sharing with students. um we're focusing more on assessments, but with that standardsbased ble uh standardsbased huddle, our content coordinators always took back information uh to disseminate with their teams, their content area teachers um and were able to have rich conversations during PD time around what are the essential standards, how are we um creating equity between buildings, so the conversations between Logan High School staff and Central High School staff Um so that grading practices are more similar the same with
031our administrative teams and and having shared conversations with them. But one thing for certain was that those syllabus um that were turned into the administrators in August that those were set and it was very clear and concise as to how grading should be taking place so we can put more and more emphasis on the teaching and the learning. the grading is the piece and the communication tool that we um need in place for our students and our families, but also then how can we focus on on that teaching and learning with the students in the classroom. >> There were I I think uh Carrie alluded to it. There were some technical challenges early on. Our teachers first chose to put the grades in Canvas, but they weren't translating to Skyward well where parents find stuff.
032So then it was duplicate entry which was frustrating for staff. So then we moved it over to Skyward. you know, we tried something that we thought would work better and it didn't and so then we adjusted and moved it to the other platform. Um, initially we chose non-numbered grades. Uh, and that took a lot of time for teachers to grade and they couldn't provide updates to students quickly. And so when we identified that as a challenge, we made a change and we moved to numbered grades that convert into letters that um are the language our parents and families know best. uh and so you know trying to solve these challenges as we arise upon them we made you know um decisions as groups and this included teachers as a part of these groups to try
033something and when it didn't work we adjusted shifted course and moved uh onto a better strategy um you know those are the five biggest issues that we've hit uh and with that I would just turn it over to Carrie just briefly to talk about what's next and then happy to take any questions and commentary that folks have >> I just had a couple questions Oh, go ahead. >> Um, so we talk about elementary, you talk about high school, but I'd like to know more about the middle schools. And my other question is, >> help me. What is Canvas and Skyward like? What's their relationship? I don't I I'm confused what you're telling me. Are those tools that parents can see? So I middle schools and then software. >> Great. So right now today middle school
034is ex they're practicing with a different calculation than the high school but we have followed the identical process of identifying essential standards and the grading practices >> been in alignment with the high school. >> Right. >> So so they've been their implementation has been the same timeline as the high schools. >> Yes. Oh okay. Thank you. >> Yes. Yes. And let's see your other question. So Skyward is our CIS or student information system. So um we must adhere to CIS. I think there's two options in the state of Wisconsin. Um so um our student information system is that what we communicate to the state about our our grading practices and and the grades that are rendered per course. And Canvas is an we selected Canvas as our learning management system. So, I'm trying to think
035of a good way to describe that. It's it's like the digital classroom. So, historically, if a student, as a principal, if a student left their homework or their grade book or excuse me, their textbook at home, um, or needed it out of their locker, they they they couldn't get it unless it was physically in their hands, right? I remember opening the school building several times for families that wanted their homework and their grade their textbook out of the locker for the weekend. Now through that learning management system, how it what and what a teacher is using for resources, tools, assignments, the information shared, sometimes even video recordings of the instruction is cluded right on that digital Canvas page. So a student can log into their class and actually listen to instruction or find their assignment
036and all the tools associated with it. Um, each class might do use Canvas just a little bit differently. Um and historically, um we played with like Dr. Engel said using Canvas as the grade book because it is one place where teachers are listing the assignments uh the proficiency scales which is what D describes to students and to families what learning looks like based on the standard. What are we looking for if you're going to be a proficient learner? And it made sense to us to teachers, well, let's just use that as our grade book and we'll just enter a final grade into uh the Skyward grade book that reports to the state. Well, it didn't work very well because Canvas doesn't sync with Skyward. Um, and we ran into all kinds of glitches. For $100,000
037more, we might have been able to purchase the next step up, but we weren't convinced that was going to solve our problem. So, the decision was made, group effort, let's just migrate our gradebook back to Skyward because we must use it anyway. That didn't take away from the Canvas learning management system being very advantageous and helpful for students and teachers. It just meant we stopped trying to use it as our grade book. >> Thank you. And if you want to change a math instruction program in vision used to be apprentice hall used to be whatever then that's automatically loaded by that company. >> Yes, there's a language they talk to each other. It can be links and and resources associated right with the canvas page >> and we would also want to make sure we
038have the conversation at the dis our district just so we are identifying identifying our most essential standards. So envision will identify all the standards when they're covered in what in what topic um and we will make sure that we are have alignment within the district for what we are assessing specifically. So we're not assessing all 100 standards to mastery but um a handful. And I hear you talk about uh skyward in terms of system information system or and then you mentioned another word but we used to talk about rubrics. So we're rubric. >> Yeah. You know you can use the proficiency scale and a rubric interchangeably somewhat but um the yeah >> and those would be found in campus. So most of our proficiency skills are within Canvas. Um whereas that is the most meaningful
039place that you can find specific information or feedback. Our students can find that feedback from their teachers more within Canvas than the letter grade or the or within Skyward. >> And just add to that we use Canvas at UWL and I've used Moodle and Blackboard and half a dozen other C tools uh half a dozen other sort of learning management systems. And the difference at the college level is that you don't have outside stakeholders looking at the grade. It's just the student and the teacher. And so in that sense, a learning management system look works like that really well if you're just communicating with the student. It's when you have outside parties trying to log in and check progress that it becomes a problem because we do upload our final grade to an outside to
040an independent system that >> communicates with the whole, >> you know, UW system. I imagine they've got data collection through uh wings. which I [snorts] would never want to run a class through wings. It's a terrible, terrible, unfriendly system. Canvas is very friendly in that way. Uh, and is probably implicitly part of like college prep >> because you won't go to a college that doesn't have a system like that. It might not be Canvas particularly, but they'll all have a system like that. And students will need to know how to check their grade, how to look for, you know, complete, how to do all those, how to upload different things to Canvas. So, um, yeah, I felt like there was a lot of confusion between Canvas and >> that was the most of the complaints
041I was hearing from teachers is this double entry >> problem that was creating a lot more work. >> Well, and it's understandable. You know, you can bring up you can't bring every single teacher in a room to build consensus around a decision like that. So, while we thought we were making the best decision for all >> makes sense if you didn't have parents trying to log in and see >> for many teachers that was like who who decided this? Yeah, >> Scott, >> just just so I understand, there's still letter grades, >> just not as frequent. Correct. And we've heard, at least I've heard that um some some of the students feel that they're not given um a fair shot amongst other students who don't have standard based question. Is there still a you know,
042do they still get you know their their ranking and all that is there still and it it shouldn't affect their >> no >> avenue to going to college and stuff like that >> and completely understand where that fear comes from. >> Yeah. The GPA is still >> Yes. And we early on we've brought people in from Burbo WL um our post-secondary schools just just to make sure uh and some of you could probably speak to this better than I can but you know you can imagine that post-secondary schools receive transcripts from private schools, charter schools, homeschool situations. So what we are attempting to provide through our transcripts is kind of everything that postsecary school would need. the GPA, class rank. Part of the reason we still use letter grades is just just for that understandability
043about where a student uh fell in terms of their proficiency level. So what happens through the use of proficiency scales, those descriptors of what does it mean to be a proficient learner in my teched class or my math class? I know exactly what I need to do based on that rubric or proficiency scale. and then based on my performance, it's converted into this letter grade, a range of where my learning fell. So, it's not unlike traditional grading practices in that way, but it's definitely more articulate. >> So, second part of that, if I may. So, and again, I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. Um, so for those who have also been if you're a great student, um, standardbased grading's not really fair to you because you're doing all the homework, you're doing
044all this, but is it fair to also say that you're probably going to get the A on the test and where the other person who isn't really doing the the homework? Probably not. Or unless they're, you know, just good at test, they still may. But does it where what's your thought on that process or that theory? >> Sure. Thank you. So the the psychology behind this would really be the opposite of of um inequality or unfair grading practices. Uh some of what we've done aside from standardsbased anything has been um the the change of about 15 practices per research great explosion of research around best practice fair and equitable grading practices. So what I'm trying to say is in the past you might have been in a found yourself in a class not feeling like
045you understood the teaching, weren't learning, but the test is on Friday and you're going to take the test whether you're ready or not. The grade is in the grade book and there was no such thing as being able to retake it. I think if I had gone to a few of my high school instructors and said, "Well, I didn't do very well. Could I retake that?" the answer would have been a flat no. So one of the practices that we have changed in this metamorphosis has been um we recognize that assessment is often about how well we teach. Right? So if if students aren't mastering it, they are not learning it. We feel it is our obligation to retach and allow uh a student to be able to show learning in a different way or
046retake a part of an assessment to show that he she they have learned over time. So of course at the high school level we can't continue that forever. There are some due dates you must meet and there you know there will be a point in time where you cannot redo or retake uh an assessment or a learning activity. But the goal here is not the grade. The goal is to make sure that students are ready for their next step in life, whether it be the military, business and industry, uh, post-secary school. So goal is the learning and we want that grade to meaningfully reflect learning. I >> I think you are right, um, Scott, in that um, you know, it may feel unfair like I'm doing all my homework, I'm doing all the things I'm
047supposed to, and somebody else walks in and just gets an A on the test. And that's frustrating. you know, they didn't do all the hard work that I did before. It's kind of like uh you know, like your driver's test. You know, some people did their minimum hours of behind the wheel and they showed up and then they were able to pass it. Others have been driving since they were 12 on the family farm. They had lots of practice and iteration and you know, and then maybe even did didn't do well in the test because they had bad practices that they'd picked up along the way. So, that's certainly a perception I think. And I think to um Dr. Everson's point, it's uh going back to like having more opportunities like with your driver's test,
048like if you failed it, that wasn't it. Like you did get to go back and try it again. And so that is an advantage of some of the practices we put into place that kind of go along with this around the the outsides of it. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I had a poor arm in the air forever. >> I will just give some personal anecdotes and some information just of my experiences with it. So, addressing the concern of it being unfair to those who put in the work and do the homework, um, I would argue that a lot of what teachers are doing for retake policies, at least from what I've seen, is that if you have all of your homework handed in and marked as complete, you can then go back and retake the
049test because it shows you're willing to put in the work to try to grow and expand your thinking, which I think is a wonderful way to do that. Um, and in real life, sometimes people can just walk in, either guess really well or have a talent for it. So like saying that it's not fair because some people just get lucky is not at all preparing for the future. Um the college application concern as a senior who's going through the application process. I just submitted uh another one Saturday. Stressed out of my mind. [laughter] I will say that all of the information that you need, so like your GPA, your class rank and things like that are easily accessible in Skyward if you're just willing to put in a little bit of work to look for
050it. So like I was able to like press one button. It's like this is your rank, this is your GPA. You can go through find all your scores for your classes. I also think that it's a very fair way to say I'm really struggling to understand this one concept in a class. So, you could be excelling across the board. You could have all fours in I'm going to use um economics, for example, because I had that class eighth hour today. I could be doing really well with macroeconomics, uh the role of government and economics and things like that, but just really be struggling with microeconomics. Some teachers will let you retake sections of a test specifically addressing that. Why would you make a student redo the whole thing when it's just one like one specific
051aspect that they're struggling with? >> I think that standardsbased grading opens up a lot of opportunities to um show growth in a more consistent way. >> Emerson, >> thank you. Owen, you know, oh, sorry, you go Emerson. >> I agree with what he said and I also think that has a lot to do with the teachers. Um, I think they're learning along with us how to handle standard based grading. And I also know that especially in the core classes, like you just said, um, if you really struggle on a particular part on the test, you're able to make that up. And even if they don't have it, we have amazing teachers at Logan and they will take take it on to themselves to make one. Um, but as for again the college process, I submitted
052all of my applications and it's really stressful, >> but I didn't know you could find I didn't know you could find it on Skyward until right now. But um [laughter] my bad >> um but I like a skyward issue. >> Yeah, it's one walk down to your counselor's office and mine was gone one day and two of them were rushing to help me. So, it's I think even if you can't help like find it or understand it as an individual, we have support staff and quite frankly anyone in the school, even the students who want to help. So, I think it'll be figured out. You're good. >> I just I just want to just so I'm clear. You've never had any other kind always standard based grading though, right? Is that correct? But you said
053you've been in elementary school for >> how many years? And >> they would have had it at elementary. Yes. >> Yeah. I think in high school the first two years were different, but elementary school I went to Northwoods and they were very similar. I remember the >> there was like three or four I can statements just on every single kind of ceiling. >> I remember those. [laughter] >> They're all colorful and cute and >> Yeah. >> Okay. Hi, thank you. Yeah, >> Scott, I didn't mean to like bypass what you were asking too. And as I reflect on your question, one of the guiding questions that teachers use in our district uh to sort of guide their how they build their classroom, right, the teaching and learning is what do we do when students arrive
054in the classroom that already know the material? I mean, it's not common, but it happens. And Deb, you asked questions about the middle level. having been a middle school principal for many years, those few those students that do walk in classrooms that already know it can often become very bored. Uh they kind of give up on school in a way. It could be a behavioral problem or they might just not come. So part of the the philosophy here of well if I already know it, the teacher is going to help me guide me where I'm at today and not ask me to do a lot of things I already know. And and so part of part of our obligation is is helping to identify that and then helping to stretch students who arrive in the
055classrooms who already know it. >> Um poor Carrie's been waiting to speak and then I know Adam has a lot of questions too and then we can kind of open it up. So I'm going to let you go Carrie. Um and so much >> let people know where they are on the topic here. So much has already been talked about, but as we continue um into the future, our goal is to continue to just refine the work that we're doing. We're in a a Thanks. Um a a good place right now, as you can listen to Owen in Emerson and talk more with our teachers. We have worked through some really big pinch points and we are moving forward with teams of staff members through the different committees that we have. We listen to them.
056We meet with them regularly, have conversation. We work through different problems of practice. Um, and so we will continue through this continuous improvement process. We will continue to re review our essential standards. We're working on developing more robust um, assessments and really building the equity between the buildings. um not only through those essential standards and learning outcomes, but um shared shared assessments so we can have further conversation about um the data and our student learning versus um a continued focus on the standardsbased grading. We're we're putting more and more emphasis on that standardsbased teaching and learning and providing feedback to students. Um and that grading is just one piece of it. It's been that challenge from, you know, moving from points and that average grade to what does proficiency look like? How can we lay
057that out for our students and our staff to share with our students? And I think that's part of why um if some if some students walk in and they have a a quick understanding, quick learning, like their learning has really been laid out for them. We are sharing as staff members in our buildings, what does mastery look like for the sta the standard? What does proficiency uh look like? and how do you as a student reach that level? And here are the steps we can work through. So, as we continue to um refine our efforts, we'll we'll continue to um reflect on those essential standards, assessments, our grading guidance has been a large piece of um the puzzle that has we've heard positive feedback on yet this year. Um and as referred to, I believe
058by Emerson, this is a learning opportunity for our staff, too. So, it's been uh um lots of open communication. Stacy and I were in a meeting yet today um in regard to some grading and we're hearing more and more positive from our staff. Um and it's nice to hear the positive from the students today, too. So, something we're um putting more emphasis on the teaching and learning and the grading pieces are falling into place um as we've worked through some of those pinch points. Yeah. >> Can I go for um as as a parent who had a have two seniors and I've you know I was really critical about this at the very beginning because I got to see the process from when it started until now and I and I would really like to
059thank all of you for your hard work. Um and those pinch points that you were talking about are exactly every question that I had and they've all been addressed. Um, you know, I pull a lot of kids when they come over to the house and kind of ask them about it. [laughter] Um, and the improvement that they've even seen and have related to me has been fantastic. Um, so it's exactly what I said when I was a little bit of crit when I was critical about it is like I get it because we don't we're not all teachers. We're we're parents. We're seeing it from the outside in. Um, and it's fantastic that you continuously are looking to improve. Um, so kudos to you. Um, yeah, I'm really happy with it. >> If I could
060add to that, just kudos to our staff on they've we've had a lot of conversation in regards to learning, not only with our administrators, but our teaching staff and our student support staff. It's been a a joint effort with all of secondary um with our middle school and high schools. So, I've heard from my graduates at Logan High that they're like, "We're getting the hang of it." >> Mr. Mer, you're the one who called for this workshop and I see >> Hold on. I got to get comfortable. >> I see you've done some homework on this. Um I uh I want to be clear, you're one board member here and so I don't want you I um we all have opinions here around the table, but I'm going to turn over to you now because
061you are the one who asked for the workshop and you did hand this out. So, can you give us some I don't want you to read this to us, but can you give us a summary of kind of what your thoughts are? >> Yes. First off, I'm glad I remain silent up now because I want to hear from more from you guys since I want to hear more perspectives from everyone before speaking out. And one of the things I realized is during this year, I've been visiting both the high schools specifically looking to standbased grading. But one of the things I want to do that I never had the chance to do was to see you guys in Hogan perform. And I'm glad to hear this right here. Um, one thing I will say is
062I'm probably the one lone board member who has consistently not really liked standardbased grading and I am more than likely to confess that too. Probably the biggest critique here of it. But I want to come in here and point out some of the positive things I've seen and I'm kind of glad to hear a lot more positive stuff over here. But I also want to take a look into the other side. Um, the reason why I wanted to make this report is because this is the number one thing that's brought up to us during linkages. It's the number one thing I hear from teachers and from parents as well. Standard based grading throughout the last two years. And I want to take a deep dive into it because I think it was something which our
063board should be looking into the policy about to either completely refine it or to see if it's something that's worth our time as well. And this is something that has been spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for. Um I had a couple questions about the Marzano training you guys were doing performing. I want to understand more about your training you're doing as administrators and allowing teachers upon there but I'll go briefly read through some mine over here and open for discussion as well is some of the positive changes I've seen and as you guys discuss here was the introduction of the proficiency scale that was something which that during the beginning of standing based grading implementation was very clearly lacking I remember last year I looked at the old workshop we had from August 19th
064and that was the biggest um hurdle the biggest party you guys had had the proficiency scale and now this year I believe it is refining that I had a couple of questions kind of regarding that when I came in there but what I found is with the proficiency scale is that it kind of brought a lot of that letter grade right here and one of the biggest challenges when staff when they were assigning homework is how exactly do we grade this as as you all said like that's the biggest thing right there and this here. Um, this is just from some of the math departments I found. Um, this piece of paper here clearly shows these the standards what they have here. And the other piece of paper, I left it somewhere. I didn't have
065it with me, but it showed a lot of that. What does exactly does a one or a two or a three or four look like? And I was very impressed by that. And I wish I had that there because I wish I could show that right there because that's exactly what I kind of hope to see in standard based grading is refining what kind of standard is being reflected per the grade. But that proficiency scale was very essential from the start towards impenting standardbased grading and we clearly have it now. And the second positive change was talking a lot about going back to this piece of paper here is what exactly are the standards we are reviewing or expecting teachers to give and that was something I remember during the first year of implementation where
066it wasn't universal and you all were talking about how you made it kind of universal between the departments. This worked proficiently well in the science departments and the field departments. I noticed is that every single class and tell me if I'm correct on this every single department has their own standard that each and every class has that standard assigned for them that they each student is expected to perform well on in each class. Am I right? >> Yep. There's standards assigned for each um class each course that we teach and they should be the same across um the grade level so to speak. So English 9 whether it's at Logan or Central would have the same set of standards that students are expected to master, >> right? And that I was also very happy to
067see since that talks a lot about communication issues and that every single department felt overwhelmed because out of nowhere they were expected kind of what I kind of got from them is that they felt like they were supposed to make it completely a new or try to figure out they got handed nothing with very little support from last year and now hearing that this is implemented that is very good for refinement as well And the staff in particular were I mean over at Logan High School I talked to their new principal and he seemed to be really proficient in stand based grading and I felt a lot of great confidence for him there. So I saw again I want to be fair. I saw a lot of great improvements of standardbased grading but I also
068see that this is still something that needs to be refined by a lot and that is seen in almost all of our linkages. And going on to the hard part here towards negative changes is that when talking to these teachers, there still seemed to be a lot of distrust towards Hogan, almost like it was a hostile environment. And we talked a little bit here about hearing from the committees, but upon going to the high schools themselves, there seemed to be a lot of teachers were apprehensive even discussing their their thoughts towards it is that teachers felt like they'd be retaliated if they kind of voiced against standard based grading. And that is a huge concern I had towards this because there were a lot of teachers who said they wanted to leave the district because
069of this and there still are a lot of them out there and we want to be a school of choice for these teachers but are we exactly providing it for them? Are we enabling student success upon that? And >> may I respond to that real quick? >> Yes. Um, teachers have not been hesitant to tell me what they don't like about standardsbased grading, and I'm the superintendent, and I know that Stacy and Carrie have certainly heard it from staff as well. May not be everyone, and there's certainly folks that might not be open to giving feedback in that regard, but I have definitely received feedback directly from many staff regarding their concerns. And so certainly appreciate that that is true for some. I would certainly say it's not true for all. And I just got
070back our staff culture survey um that we put out in the fall and the spring of every year. And fortunately, over the last two years, we've seen consistent steady improvement in the positivity of teachers around our school district and their likelihood of recommending the school district as a place to work. And so while there are certainly still outliers and challenges to be had, I'm thankful that the kind of holistic data that we have continues to show improvement. Uh and I'm also thankful that teachers have no hesitation in telling me what they think about policies and practices in the school district. And so I certainly appreciate that what you're hearing is true for some. I just wanted to throw out some kind of more holistic data and a personal experience of mine just to to to
071show a different side of that. So thank you. >> Yes, I appreciate it. But my concern is that when talking to it, it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't just that some of them felt like it was a lot to the level where it rose a lot of concern to me. And my biggest question was where exactly is that coming from because this is very important to have that kind of support from the Hogan administration with standardbased grading. And that's something we saw a lot of the linkages throughout is that a lot of the teachers came up here and had that platform to speak said that they felt like Hogan was not listening to them. And I mean I appreciate that you said you're hearing the feedback for it too. But there are a lot
072of teachers who are scared out there who did not want to share that feedback. >> And I think you acknowledged it some way. I don't you just continue on with your I think you kind of made your point. I'm gonna call on you guys right after um Adam if that's okay. >> Right. Another one here and I'm glad this was actually mentioned here is the formative assessments. I am a big proponent of the fact that we should have graded formatives because it's not just teaching students to do well on a test or to give them work every day. It also prepares them for you know the workforce. We hear a lot about how Gen Z doesn't show up for work. A lot of this kind of starts up in our own classrooms where there was
073a big push from the administration about standing based grades that this would create a intrinsic reward for teacher for for students to do their work. we found was that and this has been going from the high schools is that teachers universally I'd say very almost universally said that their students didn't want to do homework and that they had to force their students to do their homework and they found strategies like that where I appreciate that that's something I learned where you know they would incentivize it by having you know want to take a retake you better show you have skin in the game you're doing the homework here too but without that intrinsic reward it's not exactly setting students to succeed. And looking at the March 3rd, 2025 all high school staff linkage, I kind
074of saw this reflected in this where one of the concerns was that this is not doing a good job preparing students for college in generals. Finals have been eliminated and moving away from test in general. Many students not preparing for tests first time, retake test, ensure that master finish needed and um continuously being late and turning in their assignments is that this is not exactly building students of character that we want to see from our students when they go on to their later life right here. And again, I appreciate the remarks saying that, you know, it's you don't have to do all of your homework in order to do good on a test. I I understand that very well, but that's not exactly the expectation I think we should be saying to our students here
075is that we want to see them build the habit to do the work so when they go in the workforce that they're doing the work that it's expected of them on the workforce. You can't just skip a day of work, come back in and do over again and just do well. And biggest complaint from previous years as well is that this is supposed to take away the testing from students. Instead focus on the overall learn learning growth. How exactly are we growing upon students to see that they want to learn but it's very circular in that at the end of the day you still have a test that marks what their grade is going to be and it's still going to be put as a letter grade. is that throughout this entire process that is
076still something that has not changed at all and why I think a lot of teachers when they came up to me and why I asked them too is that they said that this felt like a very circular process. the implementation was my eyes kind of failing towards you set a lot of these things here I mean the big growth towards standards graced learn standard based learning but with but you can't transition away from standard based grading it's still circular no matter what you do it has always been the exact same thing there's been little improvement upon that in order to have standard-based grading you need to have good grading and I think we still need to work upon on those core components were the culture of standard based learning is something that can be developed
077but if we don't have standard based grading it's not going to succeed. >> Mr. M I I appreciate you put a lot of work into this and I I don't want to sure change you but can you kind of summarize this a little bit better? >> Yes. And again I just have one last one right here and I saw still some technical difficulties. This was something that is being refined as you all said themselves too is that a lot of teachers said there's still some inconsistency with putting a grade in Canvas and then kind of going into Skyward is it either under or overestimates it and that I don't see as being a big problem. I see that's something largely technical and something that this has been brought up >> just implemented this year. So
078seeing continuous improvement, you talk about continuous improvement. That's something which that I don't think is too big of an issue to say that it's going to completely fail the project right here. But it's something which I think during refining skills some feedback for you all is probably focusing on the implementation towards the technical side. Um but the big picture here is that this is still something needs to be refined. We're at our final year of our window from last year, August 19th, and I want to know exactly what are the next year, next couple years through here, too. I see a very inconsistent culture of the teachers from Hog administration where we're seeing communications feedback from, but I'm not seeing that reflected in the teachers when I come over there. And I'm not seeing that
079in the linkages here. That's been universal for the past three years. I think when we say that teachers can come up to us, I think that's some of them. I think there's a very big disconnect with the culture of Hogan and the teachers and that is something which the school board here should recognize and to find ways to improve that to help you guys help solve the disconnect there. That's my biggest concern from this is that throughout this entire process, we're kind of putting teachers under the bus here. We're doing a lot of good things with standardbased learning. A lot of teachers like that. But when it comes to standardbased grading, this disconnect right here is creating it circular. It's not increasing the odds or the chances. It's not increasing student success. And the big
080picture which I got from this report right here is we need to fix that. Open more questions. >> I'm going to turn over to the students um to to speak on you're the closest to it. And the reason I'm going to turn over to you now is um Mr. Jamaica referred to linkages and I do recall last partic what I found to be striking and those who were several board members are in attendance. One of the high schools said majority of the students at that linkage said we hate the standard based grading and the other school said at least half of the students probably more hate it and wasn't like we aren't okay with it like they kind of hated it. So, um, I know there have been changes, improvements this year, and so I'd
081kind of like to hear from you, your personal perspective, what changes you've seen, what you, what your fellow students think. You're the ones at the end of the train here that we're trying to do all this for. So, your input is really valuable to us. >> Okay, I have notes. Um, I'll kind of start from the bottom up. As for the students hating it, I think they hate what they don't understand. I think that they don't I mean, they're not here in my position. They weren't able to hear from the like elementary schools and the middle schools. And I I I was critical, too. But I was frankly reassured with all the information I got today. But I do think that the students would feel more comforted knowing more of these facts than I think
082they do. I know you did a similar thing. I talked to a lot of students before today and like asked them what they thought about standard waste grading and they didn't even really know how to describe it. So they they kind of knew that they had certain level like certain criterias they had to kind of achieve but they didn't necessarily understand the overall difference from what they were even doing two years ago. So, I don't I think that they know that something changed, but I don't think they fully know what. I think they just know that other people don't like it, so now they don't like it. But, um, as for student success, um, I know at Logan, at least my peers, I know there we are very successful. I know that I I don't
083talk to all 400 plus people in my school. I wish I could get that access. But um as for that, I know that it is and that was part of the things that I was critical about before this conversation, but I didn't necessarily like that it was easier to get a good grade because I was one of those students and I still am one of those students that I am turning in all my homework like two days before and I'm doing it for all of my classes and I I have a friend and he he doesn't even need to study. He can just do it. And that part of that is luck, but part of that is he's he's more advanced in certain subjects. And I think that he's also he's also able to go
084to those students. And that also ties back to the great staff we have is those teachers are able to give him extra assignments to help him develop more knowledge on the topic that maybe they don't cover in class, which I think that's also really important. Um, what else do I have? >> Oh, yeah. Um, as for students not being prepared for the future, I think there's a lot of outside resources that students have. I think youth apprenticeship uh that we have several people involved in Logan and I think that like being on time for your job and meeting all of those deadlines. I think that that is setting them up for success especially in that the workforce portion I think what what you were worried about. Uh but also sports like you're you need to
085be on time for practice. if you're not 10 minutes before, you're late. Just little things like that. But I I think teachers at Logan have also found a little loophole where they don't necessarily give as much homework, but it's more it's more graded assignments that could be looked on as homework, but it's not graded as such anymore, which I think is helpful, too. And I think part of it is just student apathy. like we're seeing more and more students who just aren't engaged anymore. And I think that is definitely hard. But I don't also think that the two are correlated. I think that we were seeing that before standard based grading, too. And we're seeing that in elementary schools and in middle schools. And it's really difficult, especially for the teachers who are just wanting
086their students to engage. I think they're they're just sidetracked a lot and they're Yeah, I don't necessarily know what like what is causing that and the uprise in that recently, but I I'm seeing it in high school and I know that that's definitely going to impact the students moving the Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] the students moving forward. But I I would be interested to see what's causing that, but I don't necessarily think the two are related. fully. Maybe it is a little. Who knows? You can go. >> Um, okay. So, I'd first like to thank you, Mr. Ma, for putting all this together. Um, I will say some of the things in here I found quite distressing. Um, but I'd kind of want to open with this. How did you collect the data? Were the teachers
087you spoken to randomly selected or did you put a survey out ahead of time of people who would be willing to speak with you? Do you have like any figures that would go along with this? I know we are a very numbersbased board. >> So yeah, >> taking a statistics classes >> actually I I yeah I am but um I I am genuinely interested in the way you gathered this data because that changes kind of the way I think through the rest of my process. >> Yes, to answer that kind of went through more of a personal anecdote kind of going beyond what we see from linkages. I did not try to persuade the discussion. I simply came in talked to the principles. They had me tour the classes that I went to and I
088simply try to find time to talk to the teachers and when outside tried to seek even more and what the teachers they kind of want me to is that I just kind of ask them what's good about sandbased grading what do you like about it and then what are areas to improve what's your thoughts about it like how do you think the culture is reflected I asked open-ended questions and kind of just listen to them >> I did not try to just persuade him anything right there because that has a that adds a you know you can add a response bias to that. And then I also had the chance to talk to personalized departments. I talked to the social studies department over at Logan High School during their lunch break and had a chance
089just have more so of a group session of let me know like this is something I am one board member. I'm not exactly here to be the voice of the administration or the entire board. I'm just want to hear as someone as an individual want to hear your thoughts and they gave me their thoughts right there. Okay. Um, thank you because that kind of reassures me a little bit. Um, the hostile work invol fear of retribution that you brought up, I would just like to say is a very um, serious thing and I would like to know if you had any knowledge of times that administration had retaliated or if there were was genuine cause for concern for things like that or if it was just kind of the hush hush show. I don't want
090to really say anything too crazy. >> I think we see that a lot in our linkages as well, saying that it very much feels like all this is being forced down upon by administration that there's no way to get any feedback for them. A lot of that hostile working environment that I kind of heard from the teachers came from the fact that there is no upper level communication is that to use a personal anecdote from one of the teachers is that they don't even know that if the information that kind of goes to goes to the superintendent, goes through the administration. They said that the channel of communication just kind of stops completely. There's no feedback what's going on there. >> Okay. >> And you know, I'm happy to hear from the superintendent about things
091like that. But it was more than enough just by asking the the teachers themselves right there that where exactly is this coming from? That's one of the things we want to ask administration is they said that they hear this from the committees is that what where why am I hearing this consistently? >> I want to be really clear. This is a workshop on standard based grading and I want to make sure we don't get off track about >> because I think the term hostile work environment has a number of elements in it. I suspect standard based grading for staff that don't like using it or uncomfortable using it say it's another reason. I don't want to derail this conversation on that subject if it's okay. >> I will add one thing too. One of the
092biggest comments I got is I felt like that they were being demeaned for being teachers. That Hogan administration was coming to them and saying that if you can't figure this out on your own, like why are you a teacher is kind of like the sentiment I got from him. >> I was say I was kind of following up on that. I literally have written down kind of in my notes as I was reading through it that it feels in that section particularly more of a critique of Hogan and the administrative center than for standardsbased grading. Um but I digress. Um, also you mentioned that standard based grading is actively I believe it's on either the final page or second to last page you say that it actively harms education. Standards based grading does. I was
093wondering what evidence you have for that. Um, if you have access to the grades before and afterwards or any other outside factors that you may have considered when making that statement >> like to ask you to clarify what you mean by that question. >> Yes. Um, where was it? Where was it? Where was it? I have to find again. I had it written down. Um you say that standard based grading actively like is actively harming um like grades and actively actively harming the education of students and I was wondering where you are getting the evidence for that or if you have statistics associated with it >> from the changes of standardbased grading. I would say that the largest part of it is the fact that it is inconsistent. That's something that we've seen right here
094is what exactly was one, two, three, or four. No one knows exactly what an A is. That was seen throughout the last two years was the biggest thing we saw in our linkages coming up before is that um let me try to see if I can pull up from the linkage here. I'm pretty sure it was an anecdote here. I would offer up that I don't doubt that there were many concerns, you know, expressed in linkages and that's one of the reasons why we've worked so hard to make a lot of the changes that we've talked about why we've been very transparent about the challenges that we've encountered along the way. Uh, and I think a lot of the concerns that you have addressed in here, um, you know, some of which are real, uh,
095we have gone to great lengths to address as we've moved forward. And I expect that in the linkages this year with staff, you'll hear some things about standardsbased grading, no doubt. But I would also suspect that a lot of those same concerns will have been mitigated because of the excellent work of our administrators and our teachers. >> Right. I will say too, the largest thing about that is the fact that it is a very much a subjective thing where you cannot really clearly define or it's been a real struggle as refining what exactly does your grade mean in the end. um without those formatives. I believe that's the biggest part of harm is that it is you know you don't have any grades besides the test that is standard based grading is trying to alleviate.
096I also believe that the subjectivity is whether it be what exactly was a oneb one of the things I got from students or teachers saying that you know it's a 3.8 equals an a while that keeps on changing. >> I'm gonna chime in here. Um, this is getting off to a place that feels uh not where it started. Um, Mr. Ma called for the workshop and we're having the workshop and Mr. Ma clearly put in a lot of work to put this information together. Um, um, and so I do want to thank you. I want to thank you for that acknowledging what has what is working. And I think what isn't working I think we have heard I think you brought up some additional points that are valid for some of the people you've talked
097to. And so, um, I don't want to discount that in any way. I also want to thank, um, the staff, um, because this wasn't a sales job. You said, "This is what's working. This isn't what's working. This is what we're continuing to to um improve on. Um, and um, I I appreciate students. I mean, even your acknowledgement of um, I learned a lot tonight. Maybe it would be helpful for the students to learn more." So, with that said, I want to turn it I want to open up to the rest of the board. um to kind of hear their thoughts on it so that we can kind of wrap up this conversation. Um I I don't want to take away from uh Mr. Ma's concerns. He's clearly put a lot of effort into it, but
098um this is a board discussion, so I don't want to to loosen up on it. And I believe Dr. Percy, you had your hand up first and then Mr. Beski. >> Yeah. I just thought to Emerson's point that like students can describe what standardsbased grading was. I think that's a really good one. I wonder how many of them could describe what like the AB scale was before. I mean, the thing is we don't know what an A is. We didn't know what an A was before. The point of standardsbased grading is to take out those elements that are being evaluated like can you appropriately site evidence for your claim. Um, and then make what's graded those elements and it's supposed to provide clarity. But I agree the roll out was rough. It started in 2019.
099It got strategically abandoned. I know in some buildings because of the pandemic. And if you wonder what strategically abandoned is, it means uh everybody dropped this. We've got bigger fish to fry. Um so I understand why it's gone up and down. Um but it's good to hear that your experience with it is improving. Any of these changes and education goes through cycles of these changes about how evaluation happens. But I I think it's interesting that Mr. Ma's point is that like we don't know what an A is, but part of the work of standardsbased grading is to make clear to parents and students what I'm grading you on is whether you can use evidence, not whether I like your point. What I'm grading you on is whether you have strong sentence boundaries, not whether you
100um not whether your spelling is perfect, because we know some people have great spelling naturally and some people struggle with it all their lives. Um, but you're pulling out the things that you're evaluating and you're making notes about that so that as you said, if you miss one part of a test, you go back and just fix the part that you misunderstood instead of having to redo the whole thing or retach the whole thing. And I would say I am going to wrap this, I promise. We've taught to standards for years and years and years. I took the CTVs test and the ITVS test. I actually did this lesson with my students just this week and showed them like four different kinds of report cards that you can get in different systems. Um, and the
101point of standardsbased grading is to make those standards clear to the students in a way that helps them understand their performance on them. Um, so it's trying to make something that's been implicit explicit in the way that rubrics try to do that too. It's another kind of rubric. So, thanks >> Mr. Mcnes. Yeah, I would agree with what you said. Uh the present system, if you really understood that between two teachers, four algebra one teachers as an example, they are totally different in terms of their expectation, the difficulty factor of this sentences, the questions they ask. There there is no consistency of. So if you ever delve in and look behind the curtain of our present grading system, it is erroneous. >> Yeah. >> It it just does not do what we want to do.
102It doesn't necessarily say who learned the material. It says who could do the best on an average of this test. And it shouldn't be. I should say there's four things that I expect all students to learn that successfully complete algebra 1 to do. And that's all we're doing. We're saying you need to know this, this, and this if you want to say yes, I understand algebra one. Previous to that, it was difficulty factor. Some people didn't even cover certain units in algebra or whatever class you have because they just didn't really like them. And now you're kind of forging people to say these are the things that must must must be taught to say if you completed biology one or chemistry or whatever. So it is much more consistent today. The problem with hanging on
103to the pres old system is that it's tradition. We're familiar with it. Change is always difficult and therefore some people are fighting it tooth and nail. But I do think this is a better system that than what we've had previously. And if we really look behind the curtain on that system, we'd see all kinds of illconceived notions. >> I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Jackson, then Emerson, Dr. Sprag, and then Molly. >> You want me to write you that [laughter] the honor Um >> I don't want to bite people's arms to get in trouble. >> I just wanted to give a perspective because my kids I have a high schooler, middle schooler, and a grade school and my kids came through standard faith grade for the entire system. So they have never been
104on the system on the the mean average, which is what I grew up on. Um and really what I see from them is they understand what they're being graded to. They understand uh the concepts that they're trying to learn and and it shows us as parents where they're struggling. Um there is no disincentive to do the homework. It's how they learn to get to the actual tests and the quizzes. That's the whole point of it, right? Um it's easy for us to follow. Um I know there was some noise when the implementation anytime as Jim said, anytime you have change, there's going to be it's going to hurt, right? Change management is hard. That's why they teach classes, they teach masters courses, there's doctorates that go in in change management. It's hard to move change
105through an organization. um especially one that that feels like it's shifting from a traditional system to something that feels uncomfortable. Uh but from a parent standpoint, it's it's simple. Um my kids know what they're supposed to be doing. The information they need is easily accessible. They know how to turn things in. Um and as somebody that hires a lot of people within my organization, a lot of them younger, I don't see the consistent the the generational stigmas that that you hear, people are going to show up to work. If they don't show up to work, they're going to be employed. like that's just the way it works. Um I don't see any changes in that generationally and I've got four people on my team that are within that generation. We just hired in the last
106three years. Um they're great. Uh they're willing to learn. They want to be uh learn the industry. They want to learn the job. They're actively engaged. So do I feel like what's happening here at the district is good. Yeah. Do I think there's been some some hiccups? Yeah. I think the administration has acknowledged those hiccups. Uh they're learning. They're adjusting. I have yet to have a teacher. I've had teachers complain of lots of things when they see me in the community. This is typically not one of them. It was anymore. It is not one of them. So again, to Tim's point, parents perspective, um I know where my kid ranks in the class. I know what his grades are. I know where when he missed an assignment, but I'm an engaged parents. But I think
107the last point I'll make is this system, if you have a student and you have an engaged parent, it's a great scenario, right? This system allows for students that don't have engaged parents to have a chance. They have the ability to learn. They have the ability to understand what they're trying to get done. The teachers are teaching to what they need to get done. And you can see it done in in bite-sized chunks, right? And they're teaching to learn. My kids aren't really focused on their grades. They're focused on the learning. And again, we're an engaged parent. That's the way it works. But if for the kids that don't have engaged parents, I think this is a much better way for them to be able to see how do I learn this concept? How do
108I learn this standard? And it really gives them that ability from a grading standpoint to do that. >> I think to your last point, I completely agree. Um especially it's implemented in college in the college classes I take at WL. Um, I recently did not do good on a test and so I went in and asked if I like what I could improve on next time and she she reminded me that as long as I'm learning, as as long as I'm improving, that's what I'm here for. I'm not here for a grade. And I think that that's hard to hear as a student who really cares about her grades. But >> it is it's a reality that I think a lot of us should learn that as if you're not doing great numbers wise as
109long as you're learning and as long as you're improving that's that's what you're here for. That's what you're in school for. But if I may miss ask you one more question. Um what exactly are you looking for in relation to grading standards? Like what in your ideal world what what would be fixed because I think we've we've answered most of them I think as to their the teachers are giving us syllabuses and as on the math sheet that looks really familiar to Mr. math sheet, but um that they are saying at the top and they are saying even before a test in person what they're going to be graded on and when the homework is turned in and there's like a certain percent that you need turned in in order to retake certain parts of
110the test with those out of question. What are you looking for? So, I'd say the biggest thing I'm looking for is I want to see this become either let's say it has to work or it doesn't. I still see a lot of issues coming from linkages and there's still a lot of concerns I've heard towards this. I'm happy to hear the refinement for it, but I want to see the refinement turn into when we look at our linkages, look at things, I want this turn into a praise that we're happy to see the changes being made. I want this to see a steady decline towards the fact that you know it's being the implementation is going through there's a great working culture between there or if it's something which isn't working if I continue to
111see you know this popping up I don't want to see standardbased grading I would like to see my p that is my personal opinion >> is that if this is not if this does not disappear from our linkages as being a problem and if it's not the number one issue I hear from is that we can keep the standard based learning aspect of it that's been working very well. But going back to traditional grading spot, >> Dr. >> But actually I will I'll ask the question later. >> Um thank you. Uh so I've been studiously quiet. I I don't think it's any secret. I have telegraphed a lot of as this conversation has unfolded for the cameras and everything that I I disagree with you and and your critique to some extent. And I'll I'll
112come to my challenge in a in a in a second. I I do want to touch on Emerson. I think you put the point very nicely about about what is what is the shift philosophically that that standardsbased assessment, standardsbased learning practices and standardsbased evaluation or grading are asking for students in terms of motivations. Like the question is why do you throw a basketball or a football 100,000 times, right? Not because you're graded every time you do it. That's a big shift that we're asking people to make as somebody who I mean I was I was the test taker who struggled to keep up with regular homework, right? The system as it was worked for me. That absolutely does not work for for many other students. And so some of some of those processes, yeah, they're
113going to take time. And I I don't want to rehash a lot of what has already been said really really well um by you folks um and and by the experts in this that we have in front of us. So I appreciate all that. I my challenge kind of from the start with the framing of this discussion is what is the appropriate role of the school board in this and I am happy to have a workshop for learning and talking about challenges in assessment and grading styles and and schemas. um for general edification and so that we know what we're measuring something against. But in the language of the policy that we granted second reading to as well, that is the level of the board's work of of directing the administration to to to implement
114to enact to to research to study uh and to continue developing appropriate uh an appropriate instructional model. That is something that evolves over time. It always has. We don't teach people the same way we did a hundred years ago for very good reasons. Um, so that is all that policy does. I don't want this board or any board because we are not experts in this to get into the business of writing policy that prescribes or proscribes one particular system or course of action that would be available to the administration. What I want as a board member is exactly what I got. It is right and proper for us to criticize the implementation of some initiative. Right? And what I want to see from the administration that is accountable to me is proof of of growth,
115proof of learning, proof of adaptation, that they are are mitigating the issues where they can, that they are responsive to the the needs of their faculty and their staff, that they are listening to parents and the students as well. And I'm hearing that, right? And I think it's been said by the the two parents who have high school students here right now. While mine are still in in elementary school, I'm going to be in Jeff's situation. My students will have come through on this system, right? And and understanding the I can statements and how that translates into higher level work. I should be able to do X, Y, and Z, right? If I can't plot a standard regression, I'm trying to use math terms, but I was an English major. >> [laughter] >> Um, so
116I'm I'm happy to talk about the actual grading systems and things, but I I think it's important that as a board we clearly delineate what is the purpose and the intended outcome of our workshops and then our policy discussions. And that has been the heart of my disagreement with with the approach to this. I'll I'll leave it there. Uh Trevor, thank you for that because that was going through my head but probably not as eloquently as you put it. So >> Trev was good at speaking. >> Yes, >> sometimes pretty good. >> Um I also want to um you know there seems to be kind of like a black and white is this going to work or not when there's a probably a lot of gray area in process improvement, right? So I don't want
117to just be like oh it's not working. Let's get rid of it. And also not our job. That's the expert's jobs. Um, also I want to say I wish I had this in college in one of my classes because I went back like and tried to relearn the test every time. And at the end of the year, the professor was like, "Oh, your grade does not reflect that, but oh well." You know, it's like, come on. So, I really appreciate the fact that students have that opportunity to improve and have that reflected on their grade. Um, I have a kid in preschool, so this isn't exactly the same, [laughter] but my teach or his teacher gave me a list of things that she expects him to do by the end. And he came home telling
118me he wasn't good at anything once. And I had that list and I was like, "All right, let's start working. some of this stuff and within two weeks this teacher came up to me and was like this is amazing like I see so much improvement and without that like list of things that this is what he should be doing which sounds very similar I wouldn't have been able to do that with him so um and then finally um in preparation for this I kind of went on YouTube and Google and looked it up and um there's a school in Oregon because Sounds like some people don't quite understand what it is. Um that put together a cute little video just explaining this is what we're doing now and and sent it out to all the
119parents, all the students, everybody. And it was very straightforward, very basic, but it might something like that might be able to help people wrap their heads around it. >> So, um I'm okay. Go ahead. >> I just want to say two things. one, I'd like to thank Mr. Ma for bringing it up. Um, you know, whether it's the format we wanted or not, but I I think more than anything, we had a good discussion over it tonight, and I think I, for one, understand it one heck of a lot better than I did, you know, a half hour ago. Well, maybe an hour ago. It's been a while now we've been talking about this, but I and I thank you for that. And I'm excited to learn that we've um come a long way with
120this because honestly when we first started you know it was like you know an issue it seemed like with everyone and I haven't personally heard it a problem with it and now two years from somebody you know we did hear some feedback in our talks with teachers and stuff but I I have the feeling that this year is going to be much better and hearing from our students and our parents. I have grandkids in in high school. So, you know, I really can't talk about my kids because they were ABCD E. Well, not E, but F, maybe a couple of them. But, um, and and I I I get the feeling that honestly we're we're in the we're in the right heading the right direction and and I'm excited to see even two years down
121the road where we're at. So, thank you all for your hard work and continued diligence in making this a the betterment of the grading system. >> Oh, >> I was going to say as someone who has dealt with the traditional grading system and now standardsbased, I will say I I like standardsbased more if I'm being frank. I think it gives students more opportunities in general. I think it's especially this year very clear-cut on what you need to do to succeed. I think that it allows for like better nurturing of growth. You can have teachers acknowledge like if everyone on a test really struggles with one concept before it's well I don't really know what the problem is. I guess they just like didn't learn it well enough and now it's okay. They can go through
122and go well they get everything but this key point. Maybe I need to touch on this. instead of reteing an entire unit, they can just go over one lesson. I think it's more convenient. I think it's easier to access once you know what it is. If you know what it is, and I think it kind of takes some of the pressure off students in the best way possible, not the well, school's just free now, so like I don't really have to do anything. But especially for students like us where it's the oh my god, what happens if I don't get an A? like you're just it's a constant state of like fighting down panic before a test. You could you could know the material and you just still panic going, "Okay, well, I have teachers
123that support me. I know if something is wrong, I know what the issue is and I know how to address it. Why [clears throat] am I really this upset over it?" >> So, I'd like to make some comments and then I'm going to turn over to Mr. Ma for his last comment and then turn over to Dr. Engel to kind of wrap it up. you're okay with that because I don't see any more hands up in the air. First of all, um this was a I've been tested now on my facilitation skills. So, I'm still um stressed in here tonight. Um I want to thank students for being really honest. You were prepared for a real some of this discussion. Uh Emerson, I appreciate your comment to Mr. Mink about what you want because I
124think that kind of has helped us synthesize where this is going. And um Dr. spre your question about what's the role of the board and our we're a policy board and um but we're also we set policy based on what our stakeholders have said and we have heard a lot about standardbased rating so I think it is appropriate that we had this discussion um I also think it's appropriate that u Mr. MO who's had a lot of concerns has the opportunity to express what his concerns are and share with us. I I appreciate that he acknowledges it's his personal opinion. Um I appreciate that he's acknowledge that uh it has to work or it doesn't work because that's kind of what we do with our policy. So I think that's a fair thing that we
125can all agree on. Um and I think that the linkages we're going to hear this year will kind of tell us where we're going. I think that it um um there have been issues, things are being addressed, they continue to be addressed. I think our linkages will be helpful to guide us um to see if they I mean we've heard we've heard really loud about this in linkages a couple years ago. It's not as much and so we're I I'll be curious to see where it goes this year. Um and I also want to u back to the role of the board as a as um Dr. Sprag talked about the staff accountable to us which is only one person. So, I hope that the staff here feel and understand that the questions and the
126conversations we have. Um, I know when we had this discussion a year and a half ago, it felt icky for you and you didn't walk out of here feeling very good. I want you to know that u we understand your work and we understand your role and we understand what you've done here and I don't want you to to walk out of here feeling the same way as that conversation left you. So, I don't want to take that away. So I um I appreciate your patience with me and trying to facilitate this uh conversation which is one that we clearly need to have because there's been so much discussion around this table. We needed to have this discussion. So Mr. Ma and then Dr. Engel. >> So I got all the perspectives from all the
127teachers but I want to ask your guys' perspective. We heard a little bit what's next and going back to last year we saw the picture of what's exactly was the timeline. We're now at refinement and you mentioned continuous improvement. And so I want to I'm curious here what are your priorities this upcoming year or even next year towards continuing to refine sandbased grading to be able to I'd say conclude its implementation. >> I would say the the primary things will be refinement of some of the technical issues. You there's still some glitches here and there and we want to make sure that it's as easy as possible for teachers to implement, for students to access and for families to understand. So there's some technical things that we still have to work through. And then as
128teachers are teaching with this method and grading this way, they're going to identify standards that don't quite make a lot of sense or uh they're going to talk to their peer in another school building and they're going to say, "Oh, you know, we should do it this way in order to to meet those uh expectations better." I think from what I've seen from our professional development, my conversations in professional learning communities with teachers, a lot of it's focused on assessment now. How do we create highquality assessments that match our standards and allow students to demonstrate their mastery of those? And I don't know if there's anything else you folks want to add, but >> yeah, on that because I want Are you done with your comment or do you have anything else you wanted to
129add? I just want to >> I I just kind of want to hear more from your guys' perspective on things, people who work there. >> One little thing at the elementary level that was a growth area for us. When we started out originally, and I don't know if there's anybody that had elementary kids 10, 15 years ago, um, but we had lots of standards and over the course of time, one area of continuous improvement for us at the elementary level has been to continue to refine those essential standards. Not that we don't still teach all of the others, but what are the ones that we want to take to mastery? And then we also break those down into more discreet discreet skills for students so that there is a learning progression within that too to
130so they know what if they didn't master it, what they need to work on and keep working on to get to that mastery. And so hopefully when you're at an elementary linkage, um you don't hear a lot because this has become our way of being. And so we've been doing this long enough that there's still still opportunities for us to refine. We just went through a pretty significant revision a couple of years ago, but it is our way of being. And I would anticipate with time at the high school level and the second and middle school level that will continue to be that we'll refine their practices within this and it'll become their way of being. And the same thing for students. >> Yeah. And that I would say that that is that refinement is
131already happening within our essential or within our content areas. We have had several reach out to us and ask for um support in refining some of their standards. I was on the phone with uh the content coordinator for high school science today um before I came here and that was a conversation of setting up a time. We're meeting with um uh art content coordinator. Um, but that's really to refine the essential standards because so many of like they they're passionate about their content and so many have identified more way more than they than we really um even have the ability to assess. So, we're refining those and now yes, taking that next step like Dr. Engel said to to build those quality assessments. So, we're building equity between schools, between CLA courses. uh biology one
132there will be common assessments there will be common formative assessments um so those richer conversations can happen so it could be pointed out like Owen said like if everyone missed this problem it's a reflection of like how did I teach that um as a as a teacher and we are um we are very deliberate about the opportunities that we give our staff to um have conversations with us um I believe in the power of relationships and we have many teams that come together um with us um virtually, in person um through phone calls that we have very open communication with. So that it continues to be the goal as we move forward and um strengthen um our practices here. Uh I would also share like we we even listening to Molly's suggestion, we have um
133we have some videos. It was a good reminder like we have some videos that we can pull back out and share. Bethany Nent has created videos. We've had our own secondary, middle school, and high school administrators um share information. But I think that will also bridge the gap of knowing what it is. And it's not just the grading piece. It's it's that how are we laying out what it looks like, what our teachers are teaching um and how we support them in that process is important. >> Yeah. The only thing I would add Part of the reason we know what to improve upon is teacher voice. Um and and we don't always agree. Someone brought up, you know, the study of cycle of change and it is hard when you're changing legacy practices. It is
134very difficult. And I would say even in the midst of the pandemic, we have been storming and norming right that stage of making change for a time and change is hard. Our teachers have worked very hard >> and one of the realities of the work of teachers is the work is never quite done. We always come back to the table and talk what could have gone better or do we need to rearrange the essential standards and what we're looking for in skills and I think in turn teachers listen to students. I mean you are great teachers for us to know what works and what doesn't. But um I think where we're at in the school district of Lacrosse. I'm I'm proud. We are proud. I think we're growing to a very progressive teaching and learning
135model. So, I'm excited for the future as we refine. Um, we need to do a good job of supporting each other and championing the change because it is very hard and has been hard on teachers. The I've probably shared this with you before, the the Little Red Grade book I was handed a long time ago, very simple as compared to what teachers click into now. And there's just mega opportunities to grade any which way. I mean, there's a lot of options in a digital grade book that make it very complex for anyone training a teacher to grade in today's digital world and for a teacher in that classroom to know exactly how to grade. So, it's it's it's complex and I can understand where teachers have been stressed and we are doing the best we
136can to listen to that and make the appropriate changes into our support. >> I want to thank you, Mr. Mer, for that last question. Forward-looking what's next? I really appreciate that. Uh, thank you to our students. Your feedback, I mean, that's what we're here for, right? It's what our students experience is ultimately. So, I I really appreciate that as well. Um, we're a learning organization both in that we are trying to help kids learn and it's our job to learn and get better. Uh, and we have been consistently doing that, receiving feedback, being honest about where we're facing challenges and our weaknesses and seeking to continually improve them. Implementation science would say it's, you know, somewhere between three and seven years to implement a new initiative. We're at year five of our reinvigoration after the
137pandemic. We're right in that zone and I think we're in the refinement piece right now and we're going to be in a really good place uh very shortly. And so I thank you all for the discussion and appreciate you taking the time tonight. >> All right, let's go. >> Who's playing football tonight? Jeez. [music] >> [music]