Board of Education Policy & Linkages Workshop - January 29, 2025

001[Music] he [Music] n [Music] we no I decided it's a workshop we don't need a gavel um but we have this Workshop scheduled in order to discuss board policies I know during in the comments that were provided for the survey there was also wanting to be conversation about linkages so really what I think is going to be the best for us to ensure that we use our time wisely is to First maybe ask the question of like Are there specific policies that we want to discuss um I know linkages is at at a high Mark so I just want to see like how many policies but maybe linkages would be a good place to start the conversation but Are there specific policies board members had in mind that we want to maybe have more of

002a conversation about I only have one okay well and I have one but it's more it's a bylaw not a policy but it still Falls within the same purview I didn't have I didn't have specific policies that I you know wanted to to bring into question for any reason or things like that as far as I remember the earlier conversations about doing this Workshop Y part of the goal was to to like give us as a group a chance to to kind of get a sense of how they work together because I remember in my first year um one of the things that would happen is is is just getting that facility with you know a question comes up in one of our informational sessions or something right and then we don't necessarily know like

003oh that's actually covered in a different policy and then how that fits into the work plan so so getting a sense of that bigger picture so that we can you know we can we can see how the information is coming to us in such a way that we can you know absolutely measure it against the policies I guess is what I'm trying to say yeah and I in my in my thought process I guess you know nobody's inside my brain so that would be helpful you know my thought process was also this idea of like if there's policies that are questions that people have questions on we could use that as a springboard for like what is the the scope of say the governance culture or um operational expectations and then um also talk about

004like you know where are some other policies kind of duv tailing together so kind of getting to that point so um is that Nifty graphic I could just review real quick to kind of once over the world and then we can drill in from there yep uh Dan is it okay if I share via the Apple TV it was that's good I think that's and that and that was exactly where I was going to go I just didn't have that so I'm glad that you have that you mentioned it triggered my brain I found it yeah there's also the wheel that we usually do during the yes I'll find that too sorry that's that's terrible could be worse I can come up with the worse one if you want I'm humming on the inside to

005be honest with you so I need to get something else in my head there we go there we go so yeah this is a this is a um was it not unlocked no it's not unlocked so okay we will get that unlock thank you for letting should have mention that when I badged in yeah thingy just start pounding on this is a um a graphic that has been used in the past when we talk to people who may be interested in Schoolboard service there's also a wheel that I um Dr angle may share with us as well but um yeah I mean if you want to go ahead and take the first stab at it and I can add in as well so this is a graphic that's been shared with us when we um

006thought about coherent governance and it's very similar to how policy governance related previously um the idea is that at the top is the owners those are the folks that we serve our community members uh out in the community and next is the Board of Education which is elected by the owners or community members and the linkages provide that connection between those who uh owner school district and the Board of Education uh that provides uh the oversight for the school district and then how the Board of Education kind of governs itself is through those governance culture policies the GC policies um the Board of Education hires a superintendent it's their one employee uh and the board superintendent relationship policies um govern that relationship what to tell the superintendent what to do where there's um Independence to

007do stuff where there's oversight how that relationship Works um then uh the superintendent is responsible for operational expectations and results um ensuring that the school district is operating the way that the school board expects it to and that we're meeting the results that the school board uh expects for our students and we demonstrate um that we're meeting those expectations through monitoring so those student results policies go back up to the board and the operational expectations go back up to the board so those um policies all relate to kind of how this this this works yeah and so when we shifted from policy governance to coherent governance we had a two or three day workshop where we actually went through and said these are the expectations of the board this is what we want to see

008happen so when you read the for example the results policies this is what we expect the student to be able to do when they graduate um with with the operational expectations these are the things that we expect to occur for a um for our school district to function effectively so we created those the indicators were created by the administration and with our input in terms of like you know does here's what we think would be the evidence to show that we are meeting what you know we want you you to see Schoolboard like if you're saying this here's the evidence and then we can have that conversation about well you know maybe we can um modify that or no that's not getting at what we exactly are expecting so maybe take another stab at giving

009us some indicators about what we want and we've had those conversations even in this past year about you know we um we expect we think we expected this because we are not the same board that was here in 2018 but the School District administration provided evidence that maybe a previous board wanted but this board is looking for more so that is the give and take that happens here and that's the give and take we expect during our conversations and operational expectations and results um you know as I I think I've said before if this board feels that our policy language is not in alignment with what we believe as a board then we need to have a conversation about making sure the policies do reflect what we expect um the board superintendent relationship one is

010a really good example of one where we as a board need to determine where's the bright line so that what work belongs to the superintendent versus what work belongs to us um you know the example that our um colleagues gave us when we were being trained on the coherent governance um for for example is you can you know the the board has all the power and you def defer power to the superintendent and the administration in certain areas if you so choose so for example if you want to buy all the paper clips for the entire School District the board can take that power unto themselves you can do all of the purchasing you want or you could say to the superintendent it's your responsibility and if you need to hire somebody who has procurement

011expertise then you know do what you need to do but we expect you to show us the results that we are getting things appropriately on time we're not behind Etc so that is power we have deferred to the superintendent we could be the ones who hire everybody in the school district or we can defer to the superintendent you know either you or if you need to hire a human resources expert hire somebody to ensure that all of our positions are filled appropriately that we have a process to ensure those are filled appropriately that we're following all the laws regarding employment effectively but again I mean that's really what that BSR policy the board superintendent relationship policies are all about is defining what we allow the superintendent to do and not do and then what is

012the power that is reserved to us so that we're not encroaching either way it is clear who has responsibility and then we can hold that person or entity superintendent or board um accountable for either meeting or not meeting those um results that we expected in those policies see if I can find that other graphic so just so I'm clear I mean if if we're dictating buying the paper clips and stuff really that's not coherence governance then correct I mean virtually we're we're one vote away from not having coherence govern I don't mean one single vote I just mean like we could end it right um so where's the fine line where what you're saying is we can take over some of the the processes and procedures however then do we really have a coherence governance

013policy or you know what I mean so coherent governance really is the structure right so these policies the way they're written are the structure of how we expect things to function right um if you look at other school districts you might find a policy book that is you know policy yeah binders full I mean I remember when I was a union rep and rine um going into the superintendent's office and seeing about 10 binders full of policies right so it it's really just coherent governance is a structure of how you want to function um some of the things that we um do not deal with for example we've heard a lot in the news in the last few years about you know book Banning so we have delegated responsibility of curriculum to the superintendent now

014we could take that back if we wanted we're still functioning under coherent governance if we wanted to take that power back or we could say really you know we need to leave some of these decisions to The Experts who know more about it like I don't know that I'd be smart enough to to choose a sixth grade social studies textbook right or what um books could be used at an elementary level that will benefit reading great you know reading scores to go up like The New York Times had an article that you know all scores are going down with the national test uh report card so I mean it's that type of stuff like you can if the school board wants to take that on they can or they could pass it on to somebody

015else and hold them responsible to ensure that student results are being met in the way we intend them to be based upon our results policies does that help okay that yeah I so in 2018 what you did spend three days I'm Tris do that quickly to be honest with you but I will say comparing what was in place prior to that to what we came up with it's 85 90ish per the same might be organized a little differently so they didn't like start with a blank piece of paper correct and um where how they came up with that in 2001 or whenever they started it was again A lot of it was from Randy and Linda so um one of the things that I learned since we had our um um training with Randy and

016Linda last fall time flies um because I've struggled with the policy governance that we had in the past was not exactly that we operated with as a board we called it modified because we tweaked it for the way that it worked for us and our community so you we we had that leverage and we had that those discussions some very Lively um and we found what worked for us it was a similar framework the framework I think the bones that you hang it on are the same but what it how you flush it out looks a little different the reason it became coherent governance instead of policy governance and this is what Linda told me and now she's retired re she retired um so she said that policy governance was created by John Carver and

017John Carver felt very strongly about and I can't remember which two there was one about Personnel mhm something and there was another one that uh I can't remember maybe something there were two points that were I think it was absolutely sticking with Carver that said if you do it differently than this you cannot call it policy governance so then they created cerent governance the biggest change I see in coherent governance is from what we had in policy governance is the indicator piece I'm still dancing with that one um I kind of get why it's a good idea if I were the superintendent I'd love it because like what like if if safety you want student safety well if I do everything that I think is right and I bring you a report and you go

018actually I thought student safety was this whole other thing and so you failed and now I'm going to lose my job so I get why it's important but I struggle with creating well first of all I think we have so many I think we're starting to drown in in so much data that I I wonder if we're paralyzing ourselves in some in some ways I kind of wonder if all these indicators are really getting us where we need to be or if it's becoming Overkill I I how many administrat of hours are spent on these reports of things that may or may not matter to the board is a question I wonder when I see these reports with you click on this and you click on this and you click on this and you click

019on this this well I mean we don't look at every single one of those in infinite detail so why are you putting in all that work we have 133 key performance indicators so if you're using like lean Six Sigma or some other you know it's a lot yeah it's a lot and so you know I think that's not lean Six Sigma then not at all rather portly nothing lean with that I would love to see a discussion here one is um some people have privately told me they don't like coherent governance I'm not ready to throw it out I'm still like I said I'm still dancing with the indicator piece because I also struggle with so we set this indicator today and then a year from now we're like oh you know all these things

020happen and if we'd only known then and now but we could only measure on this and so I I struggle with that sometimes I feel like I don't want to penalize staff because they didn't know but it some of it isn't helpful so I do have a question about that because you you were here through policy governance you got all those reports back you know a few years ago and when I go back and look at some of those reports there maybe a page or two pages you know it's kind of like an assessment of things at the time whereas now it might be 20 pages with thousand pages of document you know legs so I'm so we almost had two extremes one was maybe like a little light on substance and maybe one is

021a little heavy on like overwhelming I'm curious like just from your perspective seeing both of those like is there a balance somewhere in the middle or I think we could we could have more of balance I really do like I love data I love looking at numbers but I just having run a large organization myself not as large as yours but I'm like well all you do is just Chase these reports all day like do you really get to do what you sign like why this do you love this like you're an educator this can't be that much fun every day so I I I kind of wonder about that but we can change it like one of the things I would like a lively discussion on is the way our Pol and know this

022is just an example I don't want to skew the conversation but just for illustration um the long range facility planning in policy governance we as a board kind of sat and spent three days working on that with staff and we together came up with it versus just saying the superintendent's in charge of that now maybe the rest of you don't think that and that's fine in majority rules and that's fine but but I I hope we can have those kinds of discussions here about like what do we hear from the public that they feel we should be doing more of or less of I I I just again I think there's a lot a lot a lot of indicators that maybe aren't really move I mean they're helpful to have they're it's nice to show

023volumes of paper but are they really showing us we're moving the dial are we flapping the bird's wings or are we showing how far we flew which one we're measuring off my Soap Box sorry well no and I I I don't disagree with that I think that you know part of coherent governance is ensuring that the administration can prove that they are meeting what we expect right and so again the beauty of coherent governance is we get to set that we can say you know we don't need this much data we we are comfortable we can say this is not within your purview this is hours so it I think the challenge has always been does the board because it's a new board every year when you think about it you know a third of

024the board gets potentially uh replaced every single year does the board feel comfortable jelling that quickly to come up with what we want to see do we can we gel quickly enough to Define as a unit what we want because it's not individuals you know we are not individuals as a board we are are a team we are a unit and so how do we want to Define that so I think what Deb has brought up makes a lot of sense but it's that question of what do we want and expect and also measuring that with what does our community expect us to be able to show them that the school district is doing what they are expected to do or at least what their Community believes that they're expected to do again you know

025for example uh something that came up recently was the uh removal of the French program right um I don't know that me personally as a board member I think it makes a lot of sense for the school board to determine whether we should be offering F or not right or specific um programs like uh IB or advanced placement I think that's better suited for the administration who can see at the ground level what's needed but I can tell you the community definitely wanted the board to make that decision take it away from the administration so I think you know we also have to measure what makes the most sense um so I I mean I totally agree I think the number of indicators we have uh may be on the end of excessive but I

026also think the idea at the time was we want to ensure these particular things because they are important for us to be able to show that the school district is doing the work it's expected to do so I think that balance is where we needed I think that's a good point that for me it raises the kind of the example case of of I think the French French program is a really good one of a decision that you know a significant feeling in the community is like why didn't you guys do this right and I think that's a fair perception abely but when we think about the day-to-day operation and how you know we we we give direction through policy and we insist on accountability through you know the reports that were given one of

027the one of the values I think of coherent governance or of policy governance of of a structure that is not just everything you know in whatever way feels right in the moment which is just is constantly reactive I think is is that it it allows us to say well here's here's why I don't feel qualified to be the one to decide about that program and so we have delegated to Professionals in that area who are going to make that decision based on the the realities of this and and that frees us up as a board to do a significant amount of other work and to stay at that higher level in looking at the overall shape and direction of the district which is to my mind where a board ought to be I think yeah

028if I could that and that it's very true but let's say it wasn't French and it was football sure um or you know something that this this place would be I mean there' be people standing outside so there has to be some sort of happy medium where we as a board are notified of this or or at least be given an opportunity to talk about the positive the negatives you know and and be part of that knowing yes they are the pros but ultimately we have to answer for it and that's what we're elected for so I'm learning now that we can change more than I thought we could with coherence governance which makes me feel better that you know if we wanted to I don't I think what he has to go through for

029some of these are insane you know 133 my goodness you know but I also think that there's got to be some sort of happy medium if we're going to cancel something or no longer offer something I think we need to be part of that discussion not necessarily you know but we need to understand why and and um we need to be able to support that yeah I I I don't think you're wrong at all and I I think we have that opportunity now it it just maybe doesn't show up in the way that is like completely natural to what people might expect right so let's let's use that as a thought experiment right Aaron decides in the dead of night that we no longer need a football program um and he you know brings that

030to us uh that would that be on the consent agenda it wouldn't be on anything it wouldn't be on anything no yeah we would so public so absolutely like a situation like that where that could be let's just use that as the example right where where we would all have strong opinions about it let alone the public right and and about the value of that program we can step in and and yeah I I think a good example of that would be you know that's a so I think back to my high school when it closed um I was a speaker as a sophomore in high school to the school board in the hopes that they would not close my high school because the choice was close my high school or combine three football teams

031together guess who won right um because usually when it comes to things like football there's a budgetary implication right but also think about the um extracurriculars that have been co-opted between Logan and Central now and we have not done any you know we haven't really had conversations about those because again um I think football has a specific heartstring that it pulls but maybe not necessarily a theater program right I would Ian we combin that was a big deal right but I mean there could be some that aren't but but that's a good example too because like the the removal of a program as a budgetary concern is very different from the addition of a program right where if there's going to be a bidding process for materials and it exceeds a certain threshold we've already

032said we want to make those decisions right the removal of a program like that it's incumbent on us as the board to know what's going on to insist from the superintendent that we're being apprised of all those situations so that if that situation comes up we do have the opportunity to say Mr board president I would like this as a as an agenda item we we have to to give some specific Direction on a decision of that magnitude but I think I think a lot currently way it is uh we don't know about them until the decision's been made and then we deal with the aftermath which isn't helpful to anybody including the dec original decision maker we were providing email up I mean not all of you were here during the French debate but

033we were providing email updates along the way with the data and the things that were going on that's my point is we're missing that we get that information you send us lots of good emails I'm not I I don't but I think the piece that I think is missing is the public discourse is the discussion about hey I'm thinking about cutting football and having a discussion and and maybe our policy needs to be about having this public disc because I think if the public hears us discussing it and knows we've worked through it and why we've worked through it it it settles differently than what the hell is that administrator doing I I I person I think that public discourse is a pie that's missing yeah I would agree with that I mean there's points

034that are made at this board meeting and people vote Yes or no and I have no idea why they voted yes or no and before that happens I'd like just about get input from everybody what's on your mind in this that might change my mind Etc but it it seems like we don't have those discussions and I'm not sure why so I think I don't think that's the feeling of coherent governance I think again that comes to us because when we bring something for a vote is our chance to to push on those things so I guess then the question comes to like at what level do you want to get well and that's what was going to be my point I I wouldn't cancel a football program without bringing that to the board because

035it's going to be super political you know it's going to rise to the level of a community crisis show choirs you know it was probably three years in the works we worked with the choir directors I said we'll talk to your parent groups make sure that they understand what's going on and they're on board and eventually it seemed like a natural thing and then they came to together I apprise the board of the situation along the way is that something you want to talk about in public as opposed to having that go on behind the scenes with the folks that are involved do you want to cut Art Club at the at the elementary school if there's only six kids involved this year you know like it it gets to like what level do you

036want to be involved in extracurriculars just like do you want to be hiring a superintendent or do you want to be picking out paper clips you want to determine the surface of the roofing materials pretty extreme but but but there but there's somewhere in between right there's a point where it's necessary for it to become before the board and there's a point where it's not and finding that point is always a tension right you know and like at what point is the Tipping Point because you don't want to deal with all that stuff and you want to be the the the place of Last Resort you want me to make a decision so you can adjudicate and sit in that next seat as opposed to being the people that decide then there's nowhere to go

037you know so it I I totally agree there's things that need to come before the board that are appropriate but there's a lot of stuff you probably don't want to see until it's absolutely necessary and you'll have to put up with some public comments from time to time you know because well no matter what we're going to put up with that but I think yeah and I think that the point that I was getting to with what you just said is where is that dividing line right because again we need to be clear who is responsible for a decision is it us or is is it the superintendent aka the administration where are we going to draw that dividing line and I think that you know a good example of that football team versus you

038know the show choir how do you divide that right what what's the dividing line what so that the administration is clear these are the things that you cannot do these are the things you can do these are the things that we will decide these are the things that you can decide because we're giving you the authority to do so I think that's where maybe coherent governance is difficult especially for brand new people because if you serve on any board usually on a nonprofit board you're in the weeds right you you are making some of those decisions but here we're trying to keep ourselves at a higher level of the policy side of things versus getting into the Weeds on the nitty-gritty but that again that doesn't mean we can't it just means how do we

039draw that div that division so that the superintendent is clear and I think I I I mean examples of how we can do that is talking about the level of budget impact the the level of student impact um defining how controversial an issue is I think there are ways to do that um versus just saying it's all one or the other I I think there are ways to to do that I don't have good examples right off the top of my head but yeah and that's and that's a good point right I mean again that's getting back to that idea of where's the dividing line and then put it in policy so that we are clear and then Tim and then I was just going to that actually kind of cover that is is coming

040up with some sort of guidelines on when he has presented it then he presents it to us somehow um I mean yes could some of it be missed but you know obviously if it did get missed then then we have issues with it like you didn't bring it to us this was in part of our policy that said you should have brought it to us so I guess creating some sort of policy with guidelines of things that you do bring right like you know if you're cancelling curriculum or you're adding the cross yeah so I guess yeah that's where it would get to like let's look I don't mean that negative I we did that's why let's look at like the operational expectations are is there an operational expectation that we currently have where this

041already falls into place do we already have something in place and if we don't then we need to be more clear in direction to the superintendent what it is we actually expect so I think that's a good example of where these policies are important Jim well and I don't know where that falls but we've been in enough different schools and people are saying we need additional whatever let's say teacher assistance and I asked at the last meeting and I don't know whether it's appropriate or not but I'd like to know when the district adds additional staff like Hey listen we just added three more teacher assistants to help that school X Y or Z now is that appropriate or not I mean when we go to those linkages people are saying I've had these kind

042of problem comes in class I really need somebody in this classroom now what do we do with that information uh and when does it happen I understand right now the budget is where it is but when the B budget is okay will we be adding staff to assist in those classrooms not really for me but for the students in those classes and so I guess to add to get more clarifying on that Jim so for example we do get the HR report right every if they additional if I mean we get the whole list of people that were hired but is this a new person added to Spencer hen or wherever or is it no it's replacing this person and there's a difference right and so and what I was going to say to that

043so we get the HR report right currently so what I'm hearing you say is that it seems as though that's not sufficient information and then it comes down to does the board feel that it is insufficient information if it's insufficient what do we expect to see in that report because in the past it's been superintendent we are charging you to Ure we are staffed appropriately and that you have postings out there to fill slots and that you're doing your due diligence to ensure all slots are filled as appropriately as possible within the budget so that's the author so I think that that's a good place where we could say like do we need more then let us let the superintendent know this is what we expect do we are we okay with what we have

044because we are trusting that you are doing your due diligence with your staff and administration to ensure everything is filled so I I guess that's where I think the what do we need I think the hard thing also is it's hard to hire a staff right number one but I don't think he's asking some I mean it could even just say added position next to it sure you know just so but that's what I mean is like we just need to be more clear about what is it that we're looking create a bunch more work for and think he does either but if we would just put okay in Spence we added this you know well I think it would be useful to know as board members informed about what's going on in the district

045is just like are all of the positions filled at capacity at the place like are we still looking because it's not just the budget it is as you said like it's hard to find people that you know to hire there's a shortage sort of to do it so just knowing like which schools are at capacity which schools are still looking that might give us some context I I agree what I'm really interested in is like what are the what are the constraints we're under within the budget and if I'm understanding you correctly Jim that's that's kind of what you're interested in is is if you know if I don't see any teacher assistance on the HR reports for three months does that mean we're 100% staffed but then we hear at a linkage I need

046XYZ number more teacher assistance in my building it's not easy for us to see in you know from the budget like is the reason we're not buy buying more the reason we're not hiring more because we can't find them right we have the positions open and they're posted or because within the budget we we don't we don't have the budget for it right that that's the kinds of information I would be very interesting Jeff yeah and I can just speak from an outsider perspective but um every school I've ever been at there's always a need for more staff I mean that's just and we could throw a bunch of people at it that's it it doesn't necessarily going to make a bigger difference throwing more people at at it and you know hurting our budget

047but um I just wanted to throw that out there when we do hear stuff like that I know if someone comes to me and has concerns about staffing issues I I asked them if they've talked to their principal I you know that that chain of command I think is really important so we're not jumping right and as a building principal I recognize that yeah and maybe to Circle back it sounds like the policy is not insufficient the policy is good but an indicator that we might like to have is or 134 yes exactly or maybe there's some others we can like alleviate I was and that's what I was going to say right we have operational expectation for right Personnel Administration so once a year we do talk about these things and we do have

048mat Wy join us up front and give his report and we have specific indicators in that so either um do we need another indicator do we need to look at the policy we want to see the policy more than once I think the suggestion over here like so um what Katie had asked of Patty at one point was like hey could you provide some detail for this budget quarterly budget monthly budget thing that we get and and that's been helpful just kind of like being able to read it kind of like walking you through it a little bit I think there's a way we could beef up our HR report a little bit too noting if there's new positions to the district above and beyond the budget that was set at the beginning of the

049year um or and notating just kind of like percent fill either by type or building you know it would be very easy to add that information in a way that's not tied to uh another report or indicator just like more robust just information that I just want to say thank you for allowing us to have this discussion because really I think some of our discomfort with the policies is isn't that great but we you know just knowing we can make them what we want I think gives us a like okay we can do this but I I think questions like about what information we want or we don't want I think will help us get there instead of just saying what do you think of policy 6 or whatever so I appreciate us doing that

050um um I have several thoughts so may one of the things that might be helpful based on what I'm hearing in this discussion to to think about um and we kind of did it in the past your emails to us are very good and very helpful but I would say a good share of what's in those often times were in reports to us not actionable reports but information reports we'd have a discussion about it and the public could see that we know about it and it isn't just this email that we get and the world doesn't see that PE I think that you're communicating with us transparently but the world doesn't see that and maybe we could continue to improve on that and I think because what I'm hearing is people just want more information

051um one of the things again um you only start with your own frame of reference so I apologize you keep going back to how we used to do things but it really worked well um was uh with the budget process in I think it was around February because contracts have to be out shortly thereafter around that time if I recall but we it we would get a report as a board that here's our proposal on Staffing for next year and the we're uh and included this is we're adding egg we added these two positions for egg and we're going to not do this or we could have a discussion about that we're not approving the budget but we'd have a discussion about it and the administration would know where the board stood on these proposed

052changes versus giving us a whole bunch of stuff in September saying make a decision on it so we can get it published in October and I I think it provides a more meaningful conversation it doesn't say that the staff the I keep saying staff I apologize but the administration can't have a whole lot of say on the budget but I think again just make that some of that stuff more transparent um I I think would help us all feel more comfortable and it doesn't really change a lot of the policy per se but I think it changes how we feel when a lot we get a lot of information but we have to wait and for the next eight months till we get that report we again again if there's some of this more information

053going on I think we aren't as like finally we got this report now we have to really P jump on this because this the facilities I've been waiting to get into this or whatever it is I think I think that would be an interesting piece of information as well and that's a report you used to receive is what you're saying so and we didn't proove it because we aren't approving the budget right but let's go back to French for example right when if if we get that report in February and we see the anticipated needs in the French program have gone down to one person or zero people right has there been we we can compare like is there an explosion of Math teachers right or whoever right um and that that can be useful

054because Staffing reflects priorities as well right and and does give us a chance to open up further conversations that are related to what do we want on offer in our district right which is that again that higher level that I think is where I want to sit you know so I I'm going try to find it but I believe Patty does provide us a budget book that has I don't know if it's broken down by has some administrator goals that you know I think it would also right you know is that a place where maybe information could be included where it doesn't necessarily right it's not necessarily a policy it's not necessarily indicator but it is I mean I know that those are in there it's just a matter of seeing like you know again

055I think in the end what's important is is the board clear on it expectations to the superintendent and that way the superintendent can provide the information we are wanting him to provide right Tim were you trying to say something um yeah I mean just in terms of that alone um when last week when we were we were in a little breakout session with uh onboarding of new school board members I mean this is great this conversation but technically it's happening you know seven months later um is in our governance culture and I I read that you know the the president's responsibilities VP responsibilities if we could put maybe a responsibility on say the VP of you're in charge of onboarding the new school board members in terms of getting all the the stuff that we

056just saw some other things and have them have that understanding at least a little bit because I trust me it it takes a lot longer than just reading what we're supposed to do to figure it out I think we recently talk through putting that responsibility on Administration to ensure that it is a consistent process across boards you mean yeah across VPS oh yeah yeah I mean maybe it's something in Partnership but like well like the idea of it being a Board responsibility to develop yourselves the challenge would be you could get somebody who was just elected and they're the VP and and naturally they'll turn to Laura and I I hope and say like hey help us out you know I'm responsible but gonna need you to do some lifting here right and I think

057that's reasonable but that would be a way to like put it someplace now somebody's got that hat they know it's theirs we had just heard from a a few of other school boards that have had adopted that and it fell on the VP it fell on you know they kind of put it wherever they wanted to but it was really beneficial especially with the you know the change over on school boards now that happens you know people are running one terms and then they're done so m yeah I would agree with that I mean there were a number of sessions that you sit in and you listen to people and there's a mentorship type program there that you're attached to another school board member that has some experience and that person mentors you looks over

058your position helps you through different situations as far as what's happening even going through board policies yeah and it's something in in my first year we like talked about but didn't necessarily come to fruition within a reasonable time frame you know and and so yeah absolutely I think some kind we were a little busy with a referendum we were a little busy yeah so yeah I'm trust me I'm not putting any blame on anybody no no it's something that's going to require because eventually the people who put that into place are going to be gone right and new people will need to know like how do we want to keep this going so yeah absolutely this this changing in the number of Schoolboard members is new to this District um I could probably count on

059the 17 years I was on school board before probably I don't know I'd say we I probably served with 20 people over 17 years and including the eight that were there when I left and um I didn't serve with any of you so that it just goes to show that the it's it's a very it has changed that Dynamic has really changed I mean there were years several years in a row where we just all would hand each other the nomination papers cuz everybody just kept running we all just kept helping each other get back and it was just a it was just a different time than it is now for many many reasons and so um I do think acknowledging that shift I think is really important and part of that is you know

060is external to us it's the changes in the demographics it's changes in the shape of the city and yeah but some districts not only with board members they had mentors for their new teachers mentors for their new principles etc etc and they were they had all gone through MIP training and so that was whole part of it school that I was impressed with is Reedsburg Wisconsin and how I how they talked about all the mentoring that goes on and they felt good about stepping into new positions so for the policy work today how should we how do we get out of the weeds from where we're at right now can I raise an example real quick so we were talking about the hypothetical of the football program well oe8 right tells us the super intendent

061shall ensure that the board is fully supported and adequately informed about matters relating to board work and significant District concern right so that responsibility to open that discussion about something of significant District concern already exists in our policy right to create to create that space for the board to discuss it right now on the other side of that what uh is a significant District concern if it's up to the superintendent to interpret that there's the possibility we might disagree that hey canceling the football program is of significant District concern you didn't bring us this in an adequate way in keeping with our policy Dr engle's been a cancel football the the remedy to that though right and this is all again hypothetical right this this is all hypothetical but then the the remedy to that

062is also baked in with the superintendent evaluation correct right like and again it's incumbent on us as board members to note and and make sure that part of the conversation comes back and to hold that accountability correct which again every meeting we are completing the superintendent evaluation right every operational expectation is part of his his um evaluation every result policy that we talk about and vote on is part of his evaluation we could set him up to fail by that I mean we don't really so we say what what is significant to you had brought it up what's significant to you is may not be significant to me and vice versa so remember you know it's not about individuals it is about what does the board vote on to say is signant O 8.13 says

063inform the board in advance of any deletions of additions to or significant modifications of or any administrative policies or any instructional program so I think that's the place where this is located so then it's a matter of defining what significant means in our um uh um monitoring report we cover significant modifications which is shall mean changes that require considerable professional development and resources to implement doesn't cover you know the what deletion means which is should be pretty clear so the board was notified in advance that we were considering scaling back the French program over two years you know so there was notification there then it's a matter of you know if the board wants to to bring that up as an agenda item you know ultimately that's up to the the board to decide if

064that's the time to do so um and then you know if it's something like um the when we ended the year round program at Hamilton uh we had a workshop to discuss that um when we ended the year round program at North Side I sent out an email you know we'd already tread those Waters we knew where we were headed I think it would be like if we were looking for a opportunity to engage the public in those conversations to your earlier Point Deb like that would be up still to the board to realize that you're engaging us in a conversation about closing or stopping the year round thing right and then the board president or all of us who get a say in the agenda could say hey look I think we need to

065intentionally engage the public on this one let's send out emails a social posts or whatever to say that like we want your feedback on this email us or sign up to be public speaker at the board meeting where we're disc I mean that would be a board decision to try to engage the public more in that way we could just say it has to be an agenda item too which is the same virtually we're making it no one then that like an information or could be for discussion discussion it could be at least where we each can talk about it it's on the agenda when I said public discourse I maybe I Ed the term incorrectly I I I think the public just seeing us wrestle with issues we don't I'm not saying we have

066to engage them in in things because there sometimes we do but I think the public just seeing us but if we just go yep there was an email approv I think we're missing some connection with the public that we need to be building but if they see us talking about it and you know the budget is this we have six kids in it d da d da da da and we have a discussion you know it might be a discussion that this is these six kids are the most disenfranchised kids and they deserve this and maybe we have need to have that discussion um I I think that's a great point and the Fine Line there or maybe it's not a fine line but like there are did I get I'm sorry if I jumped

067in Jim well my point was going to be on the bottom of the first page that we got today I think says it all and and is a huge huge umbrella students will discover and develop their talents and abilities and will prepared to pursue their dreams and aspirations while contributing effectively to the local state and National and Global Community that's comes under the board policies I mean that's one of our policies that we're going to do the best we can to support the kids to do the best they can now that's a huge umbrella right there you know what doesn't fall underneath that [Music] one and I realize there's an interest in public discourse and you having like clearly aware of when things are going on I would also argue that in the last four

068years other than school closures the only thing that's really come to the board are teacher wages and the French program so we've made a lot of significant changes over time and the public hasn't been that concerned and I understand it but if if it was they didn't show up you didn't get emails there was no oped true there's not that much of a significant concern but if it is an agenda item at least we can say well it was on the agenda and we're you know it may be okay we all agree and table it but you know that which happens but as long as it's an agenda item I think it's not anything to be I don't see any sweat on our part of it and and I I agree and I think where

069where I was going to go was was slightly different was just that you know every every time something like this comes up it's a it's a heavy lift to put into place a plan of action to go and schedule all these meetings and invite the public and there's a there's a cost doing those things I agree that the discussion at our regular tables needs to be robust and and this is the place right the community if they want to be informed if they do care about these things needs to take the step of of investing themselves in our meetings we need to take the step as board members of investing in the conversations and voicing our our perspectives in these moments that's what the meeting is for exactly it as we've kind of noted before

070it happens in real time even though it doesn't always feel like it sure I would also just remind the board members as a whole that um we have had some pretty long board meetings right with short agendas so I'm not saying that we shouldn't have those conversations but what I am saying is that also is incumbent upon us to be mindful of the amount of time we're spending on each agenda item where we get to them all do we need to extend the time those are all good and important things but also recognize that we can have very very long meetings and get into very very long discussions and in the end did we accomplish anything in the discussion so I think that's what we all need to do as well is be mindful of

071let's make the conversations meaningful and as long as they have to be or need to be um rather than you know some of our meetings where we've had very very short agendas and I'm thinking oh we'll get done in an hour and three hours later we're still here right and extending the time on top of it but some of those discussions whether you think they're worthwhile or not are very knowledgeable people understand why people made that decision and again I'm not I'm not discounting that what I'm saying is we need to be careful about how long because we also have that policy that says we need you know we extend it and again that's all good and and fair and valuable and important but just recognize that the more you add onto that agenda got

072right that's what's important but I would also say I think if we had some of these discussions on some of these topics [Music] um the one time a year this one topic comes up and we just belabor it might be less because we've had some of the these issues already addressed I I it won't happen in all cases but I I think that could be helpful um and I I guess to to Dr engel's point we maybe don't get people showing up and emails and things but we all hear people in the grocery store or at church or wherever we go in in the world and um quite frankly hearing the board discuss an issue and wrestle with an issue um that uh is just maybe an information item that Administration could still make I

073think builds a lot with public because they can see and the public gets to know we're working through the issues how many times have I gone to a city hall to argue about something I might not get what I want but as long as they've really work through it and they're set up differently but I also think it insulates the administrator because we've all heard on occasion some negative comments about unfair negative comments about the administrator and I it's because we sometimes the public perceives right or wrong that we're just rubber stamping what the administrator gives us so these discussions that we have I think offsets that and changes that Dynamic and shows us shows the administrators listening to us and we're listening to Administration and I think it changes that dynamic in the community

074and just as important I think think in our regular order is where we're able to point to well no we're not just rubber stamping we are we have in fact on such and so occasions said this this information is inadequate or we aren't meeting these standards and we're not glossing over those facts and and we've had that conversation several times over this past year that like if we're not in compliance like the most accurate vote right there is not in compliance right and that's important to just keep that element in the interest of tackling some other topics tonight um OE 8.13 I think is the clear place where this is addressed inform the board in advance of any deletions of additions to or significant modifications of any administrative policies or instructional programs what I'm hearing

075you reading this um um o 8.13 yeah the very Bott one y last one 13 sorry I'm like under one I don't see a three under one army stuff in my head today um so I could see changing that indicator or that policy to say something bring to the board or you know in more than just inform you know some sort of at the board table type thing and so what I would propose is if the board is interested I can look at a policy suggestion for that for the next time we meet and bring it to a regular board meeting and then I would also Define significant in our um uh monitoring report so that it's clear like what level that rises to is it you know sixth grade art club or is it

076the football program or is it show choir or is it the French Club and then with that recommendation that I think would tackle a lot of you know concerns about like the direction which is high level board stuff that folks are concerned about and you know maybe there is to Deb's point a natural opportunity in February when we're in the you know late early stages of uh budgeting to kind of like hey here's the plan for next year these are what we thinking about and then there will be some decisions made before that but we just bring that up in workshops or whatever else at the appropriate time the board table so I would propose that I'll craft a policy language change to present to the board along with a monitoring policy change to Define

077significant so you know exactly what you're getting out of that I don't think it's just there's there's other yeah and I AG thank you but I think that we need to have a few things on let's say uh boy clubs adding their big you know addition on and we're giving them some land again we I think we have to be part of that decision and and that should be an agenda item where we talk about it we're giving up we're giving up the the pits the that Logan had over there I mean we continuously give up land to them I think as a board we should be part of that decision you know and that's that's something that we really need to look at moving forward and again there's some stuff obviously paper clips isn't

078something we need to be part of but if I think if it's something significant like that we should definitely be part of that yeah and fortunately we're not selling any land there yeah so we were retaining the property just working with the boys and girls club so and but here again I think is a good opportunity I I I feel the need for that but the question like for our Workshop is does that already exist right and I'm pretty sure it does I'm o oe7 the superintendent may not purchase or sell real estate including land and buildings so that's work they don't have to sell it then give it or they can let them use it or you know but I'm just I'm just stating that that's something that we can work on being part

079of uh the you know notified and talked about that right I don't disagree and so there we're in we're in the combination of of policies here that we need to be adequately informed you can't just outright go and sell it you know without our knowledge or approval right which is there and so then I'm going back to Katie's point about like where are we in terms of of a workshop on this like those are going to be my questions is like does this already exist for us and then how how are we what changes if any are necessary to respond to that felt need right and maybe there's something about use of land or lease agreements or other things to kind of clarify you know the specific things the Board needs to be involved in

080so to answer your question because I'm um full in a china shop more often than I should be um I'll say this if you sit down and you read every word of these policies well first of all you'll fall asleep then when you wake up um there's not words in here that make you go oh my God I can't believe that's in here there's nothing that's going to make anybody say that but when we start really digging into what does it really mean that's where we struggle and so um I um Mr board president you can go do go the direction you want but I I'll just say that as far as the policies are concerned I'm I'm still learning to dance with the indicators and I'm willing to continue to to do that um

081but the things in the policies that if you asked me where I would like to have some discussion um one is on um um facility planning where that bright line is between Administration and board um uh agenda planning right now it's solely the um president's um decision on what's on an agenda I I've had a board member come to me privately and say can't we have any input and I said not we can send emails but if the decis I mean is would we want to change that but the way it's currently in policy is how we're currently operating um another one I'd like to talk about is committees sometimes are controversial but I think sometimes talking about what we'd want a committee for might get us to an answer that we all come together

082on and um oh my this isn't a thing in the policy but since we're talking about how things are presented I would personally like to see some of these issues like um the community service fund thing that we had that was um Jim and I would have voted differently even though fundamentally we agree philosophically um uh that was a workshop so we had staff come in and tell us about it was a workshop I don't personally know why that needs to be a separate meeting why that just could have been part of our meeting to talk about why it's set up the way it is why administration's proposing what they're proposing I think that could be a regular meeting item but that's just my personal opinion I just want to say that but the three

083things that if I could say what I'd like to see a little bit tweaked in the policy policies is facility planning agenda planning and committees I I can't say I'm saying I absolutely have to have committees but we've had a committee structure that has worked well in the past not perfect um but I'd like to hear what other board members think but that's just my thought you can go where you want Mr President I think it does address committees in here doesn't it there's a board officers roles I think no there's committ committees GC so so the Committees are cont veral because I think having a small group of people working on something to bring something to the board like one of the things we used to have was a governance committee and so before

084every one of these policies would come up to the board for review we would have the governance committee review the policy and like three or I think it's three of us would sit down and go through and really be like yeah this this still kind of gets to what's important to this board we don't recommend any changes I would like to make this wording change or this wording change in the policy so not just reviewing the the um superintendent's report on did we meet the indicators the accountability review of it but also the review of the policy there's but the side well within though it is the flip side is then you uh say right so some some people the board W comfor like we had a finance committee that was looking that was working

085a lot on uh working with the auditor and getting to know better about finances and um working with the treasur so we we as a board felt we knew more about finances at the time and there were board members that felt like well that's just if I'm not on the committee I'll never know what's going on and I don't get that robust discussion that happened at the committee it it doesn't happen again at the board table so there are there's pros and cons to committees that's why I say I'm not saying we should have them but I think it would be good for us to discuss if we would are there areas that we really would like to concentrate on would we like a small group of us to work on them for some time

086I think it'd be a good discussion to have five out of seven of the last committees I had and Gail edric trumpo became Committees of the whole because everybody wanted just that to be involved and so then we just had four board meetings a week or a month instead of two right you know so that's certainly one of the contradictions I think you know board committees as defined by policy um are deemed helpful to the board in the performance of responsibilities uh if they are established they'll be used to exclusively to support the work of the board uh not to assist the superintendent in an operational area that's what the policy says you know so it makes sense definitely for governance culture I think if if there's a need to rewrite policy on a consistent

087basis to have that committee meet and do that work I think that's great we had a communication committee and we had a legislative committee because we really felt that the board's legislative priorities should be the boards and not just the superintendents like sometimes they're they most often they're not the same but sometimes they're not and they might we might have same we support a particular piece of legislation but for different reasons and so um those are ones we had again the other thing I liked about the Committees is it created you got to just know people in a way that you don't in our very formal meetings and that was nice too I think just to give some history the reason passports have not done committees is exactly that that committees became a committee of

088the whole right and we didn't want a conversation happening in a small group that we every board member wanted to be a part of anyway like the finance committee with audits like that the the board specifically on that one said we should be having that conversation as a full board at a regular board meeting we shouldn't be having a committee having those conversations also the reason these workshops are now recorded and broadcast was because people felt that the workshops needed to be more open and transparent so when we do committees are we going to do that as well we have challenges getting people to attend everything already that we currently have on the calendar like linkages like special meetings like um you know cesa for board meetings or LPF Etc so this would be something

089else to add on to people's calendars and we just felt again passports felt like let's foro that and let's always have the conversation at the board table um and if you read the the policy it also does state that the the Committees are at hoc which means that they end after a year um so you're always going to recreate which makes sense right because new board comes on there'll be new people who may want to have an affinity for going to that committee so I'm just recognized they they are considered ad hoc which means they're temporary and usually for a SL slated purpose but that gives you a little bit of history of why we have not had committees in the past so again I mean if we want to have committees we can have

090committees but I guess that would be my question is what is the committee going to do differently and what conversations would they need to have that we shouldn't have at the board table or should start somewhere else instead of just starting here at the board table I think given that our policies already allow for committees we need to redirect our Focus to what we came here tonight to do and maybe have a different Workshop to talk about whether we do or don't want committees I don't even think we need to consider the question of of whether we want them or not the policy allows us to create them if the need I to share those concerns I prefer the discussion of a workshop anyway and but I I don't discount the possibility that a situation

091arises we're like no we got we want three people to get together and like Hammer this out right so I agree with you I don't I don't see that need when when I think the the workshop mechanism is satisfactory to me right now the hardest thing though is whether you agree or not the Workshop like this kind we can't have this conversation at a meeting or so this is our only time to be able to talk and hopefully make us better as a whole and try to get us all more involved you know I think she brings up wonderful ideas if it's off topic yeah it's probably off topic a little but this is I think the whole point of a workshop is to be able to to talk on some of these and and

092I for one think we have an overkill on workshops because we talk about the meeting then we go into a workshop but there are times that we really need to um talk about everything and I think this is a prime example of one of those well yeah that's exactly what I'm saying is I I think but but even like the workshop needs to have that the focus of a committee right if this is our Finance Workshop like that's what we should be doing right but again then it's it's a committee of the whole and and workshops by Design are not you know you take no action at them because I agree with you the value is in the open nature of the discussion and yeah I mean we're people it's going to go off the

093rails every now and then but it's it's on us to try to bring it back as well [Music] so well I think if for instance there has to be some method of getting to know people better on an individual basis the sooner you get to know each other the better it is as far as the flow of conversation uh I mean I I felt even just driving down to Milwaukee with Tim opened up a good conversation between the two of us as he drove both ways I if there had been three or four of us in the car during that how long did it take 3 hours uh 6 hour trip that was good time because you got to know each other on a personal level and if you can get to know people on

094a personal level I think the conversation is so much smoother people aren't afraid to say what's on their mind they let other people know and it's a it's a good way to talk to each other um and I don't see that happening at at these workshops well this is a little better than some but at a regular meeting I mean a regular meeting is a little more rule bound I mean that's that's for a good reason but but I see I see the committee issue is being hand and glove with the workshops here every every Workshop is a committee on a topic maybe maybe people disagree with that but no I agree I agree with you cuz if if we need to form a committee about something then we'll have that discussion in form a

095committee about something right and if we if I can move to a different top we can come back to it but I was wanted to get to the facilities piece oe2 does talk about the superintendent will develop and execute a facility plan that establishes priorities for construction renovation and maintenance projects that ABCDE Project Life Cycle cost ensure the facilities are safe clean properly maintained ensure facilities are made recently available sure the board shall make the final selection when naming buildings facilities real property so I mean we do have a the policy states that the the superintendent will develop and execute a facility plan so at this point in time the policy is stating that the Administration has the authority to develop and execute a facility plan if and this is what I mean by this

096board may feel differently and if this board feels differently then we need to then talk about that policy and make the right adjustments but at this point that's where we are at so that's where maybe there's a feeling like we do not have input or we don't create it ourselves but that's the policy language that we have and actually thank you for reading that out loud because it made me think there's really kind of two facilities plans that are the pictures in my head the one Joel brings us that has each School building Summit and all the school buildings and then this is what we're going to do this year this we're going to do like I think that works I think that works shortterm 5 years yeah I think that works well like I

097don't know where the hell you need a roof you tell me I don't know I don't even know why roofs cost as much as they do but I believe we need them and I'm grateful there's no water leaking in them so I that's as much as I know we need roofs you're good um but I think about uh there's also another document that's been created about where we see our facilities going further than 5 years in the future and I would like to see that document be more created as a partnership with staff and board together versus staff prepares it presents it to us and we say yay I I don't feel because some could say that's the board's input on it but I I would like to see again a different kind of input

098on like yeah can I can I try to ask a question to clarify what you're saying because I think I see the the distinction between like the the maintenance plan knowing what every building and the existing properties is the longer term projection of like where do we see our needs in 25 years how are we preparing for that now knowing that these are huge long-term Investments right that's the kind of thing you're talking about okay so I I can I can see that I I I can see that and having some kind of input I don't know that like I personally or any hypothetical board member individually has like a a total perspective to be providing too much direction to that I would still lean on Joe and the administrative staff to to really be

099looking at that I mean what we used on the last one that we created is we had the architect and I'm sure you've done I know you've done this because you referred to it in terms of the report on capacity for school building and so these reports I mean we had a binder with each School building it had about capacity and you know all the additions and the age of the square foot no I mean there was good healthy detail in there not enough to overwhelm us but good useful detail in there and then then we could talk about I mean we had a discussion um I can't remember what year I'd say probably around 2014 is maybe is somewhere around there about would we ever see a future with one high school so um

100so that discussion actually did happen and we all went oh God we don't want to touch that with a 10-ft pole um uh I know Lessons Learned but but like we did like we had happen again in years happen again in 10 years and they'll be like why didn't they fix this 10 years ago but the I will tell you the difference that we 20 years ago the difference we had then was the projections in student enrollment was we not declining at the rates that we are seeing in the last 10 years eight is years um it it is really very different so we were not I've heard a staff person say well the previous school boards just kicked the can down the road we didn't even see the can we didn't know that there

101was there was no can the can was just fine so yeah it was it it's some things like that change and so we did the best we could with what we knew but we also had a really good discussion and I think about I thought about it often during covid about do you need school buildings to teach and how could you teach in different ways and and where are good learning think so it was a good doubt you do the co answer to that is yes you do you do but you community and you build community in person but even how is we deliver education how much of it is outside for our kids how much have we talked about the the outside space being so vital to our students and I mean I I

102think we've the way we saw school buildings 10 years ago and the way we see school buildings now or a facility for Education now is fundamentally different because of covid because of how students learn all kinds of things and so we did the best we could I I think we had a good framework but there were a lot of things we didn't know and you have to update it regularly but I think that it's helpful for us as a board to have that discussion and and talk about that and give direction to the superintendent I also have an interest in the board approving a longrange facility plan so I'll look at I thought last spring did we not yeah we did we proved yours yeah what was asking for is to be more to more

103problem with that as well you know generating the boiler generating the the material and the foundation you know and then Administration takes all that generation and puts together a framework for it brings it back to the Board review edit refine like our job is to do the work for you you shouldn't have to be producing documents you should be generating ideas and Direction and policy then it's our job to like make it happen for you and then bring it back for approval and so I could see a workshop where we talk about what is the future look like where do we want to go and then we take the your good ideas we put them down on paper we flush it out provide some detail bring it back you say like this don't like this

104just this we do all the edits work it up really nicely come back board approves it but I was so I'll just use this as an example uh middle schools um so um so the um discussion was there was discussion long before um Lincoln was closed about consolidation Middle School consolidation and it was done internally and then um I had Parents calling me up saying I can't believe and look at this and I think angles up to this and da d da da and and then it came to a discussion to the board about do we close Lincoln and then they said we need the money and we Clos Lincoln it's kind of a very short version of it but I think had we as a board just had a discussion about do we really

105need three middle schools or does it make sense to have two that align with the high schools and that way again it changes the community conversation that this is the direction of the board versus darn that angle what's he up to I I think those kinds of things change that discussion darn that board instead I mean you can have that too well kind of what we're for though [Music] yeah you guys did it right you needed to callose some elementary schools well I mean just I mean the board did it as a whole right like we we had the right I didn't close the building no but what I'm saying is is that that was in front of you guys or the the bo at the time the board at the time and then you

106diverted from that with a different plan I mean that's what happens when Dr Engle says we have too too many elementary schools now you guys come up with a plan yeah and you did right and I think this is the same thing you part of it yeah in case you forgot I did the yeah I just you had the you didn't say a lot as usual but well yeah want to I think there's also you know a piece I think there's also a piece to remember um about referenda right when they go well it's pretty public what goes well when they don't go well it we also are pretty public about what doesn't go well like what happens what's the plan B if it doesn't pass right and so part of that High School referendum

107was that conversation of this is what will happen if this passes this is what will happen if it doesn't so um I mean at least from my memory of those conversations we did talk about like if this doesn't happen we're going to have to consolidate at the secondary level because this was a high school well it was actually a secondary referendum that was impacting middle schools and high schools so and then people were mad that we were threatening them correct when we were like well if this doesn't happen like we can hang on for a while and we can keep moving money around for a while to keep everything going but like if eventually the numbers will get down to a level and then people were like you're threatening us you're threatening us right we're

108like we're trying to explain what happen which also is kind of interesting because not passing that High School referendum and then coming to the elementary referendum it was it was very interesting to hear the community talking more about declining enrollment talking more about the the issues with the budget and so it was almost as though in my opinion the that first referendum kind of set the stage for the second one Je just really quickly um kind of going off what Deb said um like bar puts out a study so they can give you a projection about enrollment so what we did in my last District was we actually put together a 10-year plan looking at facilities saying okay we know what enrollment is going to look like so if this happens then this is and

109and as a community it's like that's part of the Strategic plan that's put together so I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about Deb but it it sounded like it was right on those same lines where saying hey let's get the community involved so then when it comes to closing a building or if it comes to consolidating you know hey this was this has been the 5-year plan we've continued to look at it yearly update I know just a thought as we you know start to talk about strategic planning down the road I do Wonder to Deb's Point like what cans we're not seeing right like maybe we'll become a climate Refugee State and everybody will move here and we'll have we are a climate Refugee state yeah there's on that right but I

110mean we're not but we're not seeing that demographic in our numbers yet but potentially we could someday like I don't know it's interesting to think about I mean I can only assume that Dr Eng Les already been thinking about it in his own mind for the next 10 20 years I mean I I think we all think about it and it's going to things are going to rise only in the future I mean it's kind of common sense but right and could have a big fuction population again I I mean have another baby boom you know I think about that all the time when I walk out my front door and see all of the older people that live in my neighborhood I mean those houses aren't just going to be vacant I mean so

111I mean I think about that too so it's a so we did do some talking about the number of indicators how do we it sounded like there was some form of consensus around the table it's too many so how do what indicators indicators we're a little overwhelmed we're overwhelmed with indicator it is overwhelmed it would be mutually beneficial to reduce them so like how do we how do we grow about how do we start I would say up until this point there's been a continual interest for more indicators I know right every time we get into a policy and a monitor like oh we could add this oh we could add this I would love to know about this you know so I think there will be a conflict between us talking about it generically

112and then when we're actually in it and a desire to see more because you're all very curious people who want to know what's going on so we've already talked about probably 20 more meetings that we can have a year uh in order to get into the weeds even further to spend more time and our meetings are generally 3 hours long which is insane I've never been a part of a district that had meetings this long so uh I have no trouble doing more indicators or fewer indicators I if the general direction right now like not in the not in the thick of it is like hey fewer indicators is okay when we come back with monitoring report changes I can adjust two directions each time and say like hey this is what fewer would look

113like this is what the status quo or more could look like and we can make that judgment each time we come up to them throughout the course of this next year I think that's a good idea but I also think on the board side of the table we need to be looking at our own policies and seeing if we need everything that is in that policy because what is in the policy it's what generates indicators as well so it's as much like can the administration maybe combine or eliminate while still maintaining the data that we're required to do for the policy as written and on the flip side as a board looking at the language and saying is this really everything that we need or are we asking for too much and I would say

114an example of a place that generates a bunch of indicators is um oe6 Financial Administration and ultimately we basically just go through the audit and pull out all the stuff that corresponds to all the things on the thing and there's maybe one or two things that are extra you know that we go generate but can we just say a good audit exactly so theoretically oe6 could have one monitoring indicator that covers all policy Elements which is a clean audit and that could potentially suffice for the whole thing and then you would hear the auditor speak you would ask your thoughtful questions and then we would all high- five and get out of here and then oe6 is done you know so that is a way to approach it and there's maybe some other opportunities as

115we look through it for some kind of like Source documentation it's kind of like some big thing that we do some event that kind of checks the box for all of those things getting a little bit back to policy governance information and update reports versus like a whole series of things but maybe in results we're like yeah it's beef that up a little bit because that is the real that's the thing we want to spend our time on correct and those are the ones we're always asking for more different indicators on correct yeah I don't know which I can't remember the one that's like OE 10 and 11 are particularly important they're the learning environment and the instructional program the rest confuse them with results when we're talking right exactly one thing I am hopeful

116with this District visioning process when we get into it is that it will create some priorities in our community and those could be things like great staff great facilities great instruction and those would then maybe align with key policies that we focus more of our time on and so then maybe if it's great staff we focus on oe4 for Personnel uh if it's um uh great facilities it's o12 we focus on our facility program if it's you know student achievement as a pillar then it's results policies that we spend our time on and maybe we intentionally cover the others but don't belabor it and we all agree that we'll set a timer for 10 minutes and then we're going to move on to the next thing you know that may be a way to tackle

117some of the those other policies that are certainly important but maybe not where we want to spend our time I think getting your suggest questions on each one of these as we do it it's beneficial because I I don't think any of us well a lot of you probably did I had no idea there was 133 maybe 134 now I after today but I mean you know so I think we can what you just said there I mean a clean audit that just seems simple to me you know and obviously you're able to ask questions and do that but I think we could do that with a lot of these as long the only problem is the board turns every year as we talked about so somebody may have but I think I think this

118is you know as they're properly trained I think they'll understand that too are there for a while when I started education we didn't have state standards every school in every District gr their own math curriculum as an example and then finally what is h on Alaska differ from lacrosse and there were some standards put in place we don't have anything like that school boards standard indicators Across the Nation I mean they Rite these shouldn't they be the same relatively between lacrosse and Appleton and Green Bay Etc aren't there some standard guidelines that people get to follow so so there's only a handful of school districts two handfuls of school districts in the state that do coherent governance and there's probably 40 or 50 that do some semblance of policy governance well see so for when

119I asked that question how many of you are on coherent policy governance nobody but then how many are in policy governance they all were that's what they said I mean that's what they said um I have been in those districts and watched their board meetings they're not in policy governance um they may have some like policies that look like that a little bit but they are generally not Lacross did policy governance that was a commitment to policy governance a lot most other districts do not do it they their version of policy governance is not rooted in the philosophical principles that cause it to be policy governance they generate policy yes correct coherent governance being a little bit new and moving from information advocacy reports to these more comprehensive monitoring reports you know we look at

120Verona and Sun prairies and uh chipa Falls and eluna and oair we look at all the other school districts that do these sorts of reports trying to make them better we collaborate on a regular basis Laura knows all of secretaries very very well um we're all kind of doing the same stuff more or less you know we're all about in the same place you know so we have compared kind of to comparable school districts um and we've all experienced it in similar ways you know like boy it's a lot uh but you know from accountability oversight perspective there's a lot of good information you can demonstrate to the public our board expected this we did it you know it's really solid in that regard I also think it's part of transparency is making it accessible

121and when there's so much stuff it might not be accessible and so then people just like H I don't even want to deal with it and so slimming it down making it in a little more concise Laura and I talked briefly at one point about creating like a cover sheet that's graphically pretty that has some highlights and some call outs and some statistics you know that kind of summarizes a report all in one sheet and so when somebody wants to know about facilities we can say oh here it is this is what our district did this last year it's really awesome or if they want to know about Personnel you say hey here's um average wages and where we rank in the cisa and you know the important things you want to know the diversity

122of charts exactly charts pie charts graphs line graphs all the things I want I want to jump in before Deb just quickly to say we've been sitting for about an hour and a half so after Deb's comments are we okay maybe taking a f- minute break break and then coming back would that be okay okay so if I were to answer Key's question about so what are we going to do about slimming them down I think and and we do add some but it's kind of like when you buy stuff for your house and then you forget you have to like take stuff out because you only need so much crap in your house so I think school board Goodwill yeah there you go I don't think anybody would buy our discard policies indicators here's

123a used indicator for sale on Marketplace um but I do think like um and and Aaron your personality type is to um overachieve and so I think sometimes we have a lot of indicators because you want to just like I not only just met this but I really want to show you how I met it in all these different ways like how did you meet it what's the best way to show us you met it and we'll believe you you don't have to show us in a thousand ways that would be just my two cents where I'm speaking very generally I'm not speaking about any particular indicator of any particular policy that's just my I'll hold you to I'll just believe you because there there are if I'm remembering correctly there are a number of

124indicators where the evidence is identical it's the same document right so like why can't we slip that down well I mean that is already slim down then right so like that that has already been at least from the report generation okay and if that's the goal is is to make the generation yeah absolutely that's where the efficiency can come from right right but to look at it and for three different reasons that seems fine for us to do yeah all right why don't we just take a quick five minute break and then we'll come back and continue on go all right [Music] a [Music] you [Music] we can continue where we left off or somebody has another y goad can I ask a question then so if I was hearing correctly I I heard a

125general sort sort of support for the idea of slimming down the o6 specifically I think it would make this this Workshop singularly productive if we came came out with an idea for like are we okay with yeah give us a clean audit does does that mean CU what what I like about the way policies are written is it's these affirmative and these negative statements right you will do this you will not do this does present a a clean audit cover all these things correct so if everybody's comfortable with that what is the next step to begin the process of changing that policy so I I'm getting well I don't think there's anything wrong with the policy itself I think it's nice to enumerate the various things that the board expects I think what I present

126in a monitoring report the next time we have an update is here's how I'm going to present the evidence clean audit clean audit so we don't we don't need to go through that work of rewr I would say the policy is fine and it's up to the administration to bring forward indicators and if we're okay with the indicator that it's going to one indicator is going to cover all of this then we're good I would argue that the audit alone does not cover everything that's on here I would encourage everyone to read through here carefully and make sure that you know what you're agreeing to correct and I would say I probably won't bring just a clean audit it will probably be this plus a couple of other things you that meet the comprehensive nature

127of it but it might go from 35 indicators down to four so here's here's one way we could potentially have this happen right is that it seems based on consensus the board would like to revisit oe6 in terms of reviewing the indicators and so we would be asking the administration to bring back oe6 just to review a change in indicators and then asking the superintendent how long do you think you need in order to bring the forward so that we can take action given that we have a meeting on Monday well it doesn't have to be Monday we won't report on oe6 until January so I a lot of time to like address that one that's that's not an issue at all but you could change indicators before January totally and that's what I mean

128like if this board wants to say we'd like to see this sooner than January M like what what would be a an appropriate time frame to get that done I'll work with Patty and get it in the next couple of months December yeah exactly be our Christmas present right um but yeah I mean I think within a couple months F you know then we could talk about like you know we're ready to present the change in indicators to the board and then it comes in front of us and that would be I believe I have to look again Laura is at just one meeting because all we're doing is looking at the indicators and so that would be a matter reserve for board action we could take action at that board meeting to make the

129you know we're changing o6 and we're done the monitoring would it be Ben official to do that to all of them I I think from a workload perspective we're naturally going to be reviewing the monitoring reports as we move forward I can do a scan through them to see if there's places where it's obvious we could make some early changes and present that before we monitor it the next time but otherwise I think just iteratively just making them small we don't have to do everything all at once correct and I think as a board as these come up we got to remember that we're trying to yeah shrink these do it and and again that's why we always had the two meetings right the first meeting was to discuss what has occurred and has the

130superintendent provided us enough evidence to say the monitoring report has met or not met or has um you know reached reasonable progress whatever right the second meeting was always to discuss the policy language and the indicators right so that second meeting was really where the board members could even come and say I'd like to see a change to the policy in this way and then you know obviously changing the policy could potentially impact the indicators and then the superintendent would then have to make adjustments there and I can foresee where many of them might decrease but we may have some gains in a few of them but corre ultimately I think we can make life a lot easier on 132 I'd like to cover something before Katie takes off cuz she's the right 7:45 yes

131yep um our three is one where we've struggled with of the indicators to find something that reasonably measured student progress but also wasn't a real burden on our teaching staff and those are our five or R3 number five and R3 number six recognize the impact and demonstrate awareness and this is a good example right and just to jump in quick of something to Jim's point where incoherent governance I think we're the only School District with coherent governance that has those statements as part of a policy and I love these as values about you know recognizing how we are ourselves in the world as a part of social emotional learning and also being aware of others and how you know our society impacts others you know naturally but um this may be something where we don't

132need to measure whether or not kids know it but maybe an area where we can measure whether or not we taught it and so these might be better put in oe1 specifically OE 11.7 you know to talk about the instructional program that we have as opposed to specific outcomes that we're measuring so it's one of those that's been a real struggle for five years and I just throw that out there as an example this was a kind of sidebar conversation during the break because I was sharing that quite a few of the indicators have evidence that they produce anyway right like the standardized test sces and the audit and stuff like that but there are some that are quite burdensome to the staff and administration to try to drum up some form of evidence that

133proves that what student results are right and this I think is a good example of that and while I love what we're trying to accomplish here the burden of proof is overly burdensome in my opinion and so that's where we were talking like if we're talking about reduction of indicators um could we look first at some of those that require evidence that isn't organically created Created anyway and this because we're even when they do come with evidence like I'll speak for myself I'm never satisfied with it like it doesn't seem like we're really achieving what we're we say we want here and I think it's almost impossible to do that so to your point to move it to an operation expectation where we're saying we do value these things and we want evidence that these

134things are being taught but it's not tied to a student result and and again you know to point back to what Jim has said which is tying to what you're saying is that no other district has these and so for five years we've been trying to figure out how do we measure it yeah right and with others of these policies we can look to other school districts and get ideas and suggestions about how they get to the end result of showing the board that the evidence exists why they don't have it now yeah it's just it's been very very challenging and so yeah it does get to that idea of like do we want to see evidence that every student has met this which is a result or do we want to say that our

135curriculum covers it which is an operational expectation under instru so J well and and I don't know where we stand but I look at five and six and read some of those words there and then with today's political agenda uh are we talking about Dei issues or woke issues talks about homophobia transphobia ableism I don't know doesn't matter I'm a war person yeah does it matter so I like it but it doesn't matter are we tread in there yeah I I think it's the the social emotional learning the the social awareness the um personal awareness skill that we're teaching kids that allow them to recognize where they are in the world and how the society impacts themselves and others we could use different words for these or be less explicit if we needed to be

136but you know I think the concepts are great and there values that are clear in our community um you know we have an equity and education policy as well that asks us to you know give kids a good shot at interacting in the world uh you know so I I think they're good values I think it's just been really tough to provide something that the board has been satisfied with Y and I think there's a clear expectation that we need to teach this these skills to our students um but whether or not we can effectively measure them with the tools we have available that isn't a complete burden on our staff I don't know that that exists I think this may be a good area where Miss Sula brought up where there's a group of

137three or something to go through these to see if some of these can be eliminated and work with you on it and bring it back to the board um for everyone's thoughts so we're not doing one at a time we might be able to kick the Cann down the road a lot faster across the road however you want to I mean the other way to do it is like the one we change from policy to coherent which is like set up a two-day workshop for the entire board to go through them at once I don't recommend it that's what we're doing right now yeah exactly how about I just bring some policy recommendations whether to a small group or the whole board hash it out for 15 minutes I N move on I I'm going

138to say I'm uncomfortable with that because this is the board's job it's not administration's job and I I I think that puts you in a difficult spot I I I understand why you want to do it and I appreciate your your generosity offering that but I think that's our job I don't I I don't want the public to see us approving policy that you're bring Ford's policy our policy that you're bringing to us I I I bristle at that to use the quote from the opportunity when we're reviewing it to make changes again yeah I mean every single time that a policy comes up we do have that opportunity so that so my idea wasn't a very good one is what you're saying no I I I think that you know you could have a

139committee but I I also again getting back to the way passports have thought about it is like the are those three people or four people how many ever are they going to also capture things that I might find valuable which in the end is going to be brought up anyway as part of the whole board discussion because I'll want to bring it up at that point in time anyway so does it make sense to do a committee or not I mean I think in this case a committee might not be bad because at least it would build a foundation to start with and then we can edit from there great committee territory corre three people can write language easier than nine absolutely so rotate all three so um here's what I would propose so I'm

140hearing some consensus again on R3 that maybe we're looking at eliminating five and six from R3 um we could ask Dr angle to then consider where an indicator in operational expectation did you say o10 or O 11.7 Okay where this could be captured but in terms of needing it in the results policies I don't know that it's necessary frustration I couldn't support removing it from results if we didn't have it in the in the operational y like so I wouldn't I wouldn't support a vote where we remove this if we didn't already have it in place in the operational and I would not want to see the language watered down either so it should be a a policy in the operational not an indicator in the operation so yeah I agree I agree I was

141I misunderstanding Katie's point that the the whole R3 could be moved to an OE was that not what you was no five and six just five and six r one through four there's well even four I think I can't remember if that's one that was one where we did have a problem because they they Chang what they were able to measure within a year but the first three for sure are ones that other school districts do have and we can provide evidence pretty easily on those I think our four we've had some challenge but but not as many as our five and six four is fine now yeah it was just before it was um we wanted we wanted kids to be doing the thing which is great science citizen science but it was a

142burden to try and capture all that information as opposed yeah okay I just want to make sure I understood yeah what what I was in part of five and six definitely are are unique to our school district only so okay so and I like that I'm glad we have them yeah yeah and I don't disagree um but and I also agree with you Meredith and that I don't want to see them go away unless they're found somewhere else and so but but that's the consensus I'm hearing right is that they don't belong here they belong elsewhere and so let's talk about where it should go and again getting back to Trevor your point of how do these things intersect right I mean here's an example of where there is some intersection it's just what are

143we trying to measure right what are we trying to hold the superintendent accountable to and how are we going and what is the evidence we want to see so um would we be hearing and Meredith I just want to I'll pick on you just because you know you did voice it so would you want to see that exact same language as under the superintendent will 14 and 15 let's say we're looking at OE oe1 instructional instructional program I it would be written slightly differently though because the OE is about what the like it would be that we offer this instruction versus the students will demonstrate learning right there'll be slight changes to the to the structure but not yeah but I mean you know I I did hear you say you didn't want it watered

144down I don't right so I mean if we look at oe1 the superintendent shall maintain a program of instruction that offers Equitable challenging and relevant opportunities for all students to achieve at all levels defining the board's results policies the superintendent will um and then we could change the beginning of number five where student you know super will ensure students ensure that the instructional program includes correct you know opportunities to recognize the impact of social location right so I mean of model some of the others in here but in the end what we're going to do is just move it in there and make it make sense right yes exactly okay okay so um is there somebody who would be interested in maybe just doing that work that that language change and then we could bring

145it up in front of the board as a conversational piece where we're talking volunteers I'll do that I'll work on it too got have two versions of it to kick around and then um you know if the board's okay with that we could do it that way and then we can also talk about creating a or more than one policy committee where you know maybe somebody has an affinity for operational expectations but wants nothing to do with board superintendent relationship right so there may be different groups who may want to get together and just focus on those pieces or do we want one committee that is going to be the policy committee that is going to see all of them how do we want to tackle that as a board I think a policy committee

146would be one that got so angry my friend I don't know who wants to be part of that but you're thinking just one would be sufficient that oversees it all yeah because I think then they'll they get done early and just go to the next one and you know I think it'd be just a lot quicker I don't know yeah so you're looking for a committee to go through all of this and bring forward or what the um governance committee had done in the past was every time a policy comes comes forward to the board we would review it for any possible changes because it would it' come to the board for uh the accountability piece of it and that's when we review it so my question is do we do it piece by piece

147or one big chunk is that what are you looking at or thinking well I don't have an opinion I guess I now you bring that up it's almost like a two-part I think you can go through them to see if we can find um some synergies by getting rid of some stuff maybe adding to other places or whatever then maybe as it comes on the board can do that but I just think if we can reduce this by making life easier not just on the administrator I think it'd be a lot more lot more easier for us to understand too instead of keep on adding maybe a way to accomplish both is that we would have a policy committee that is going to review the policies that are coming in front of the board at

148the next board meeting or in the next month or after we get the monitoring report and then prior to the next meeting where we would be looking forward they they would do the review and come with yeah I think it just depends on like how much time do we want this policy committee to have well one year would take them through all of the policies if it's an ad hoc committee right no and I'm just saying so for example you know if we talk about it and then we want to bring it up at the next board meeting for the changes right now we had already said we're going to just one meeting where we're going to talk about it and make changes well if if it makes sense right but that's you know so

149that's what I'm trying to figure out like where do where does it schedule how you what's the work that they want to get done so that we are all clear of the expectations of the committee so MTH I'm sorry no no don't be um I think that the advantage of the piece by piece part of it is that sometimes I understand the policies better when I see the indicators yeah and then have a feeling of whether I like the indicator or not that's what I really understand what the policy is about when I'm like oh oh that's what this is so I think sometimes when I look at these in the abstract I'm like like you said earlier Deb yeah looks good I have no objections you know but when you see the indicators you're

150like wait a minut that's I want and then you better you have a better understanding I I actually was going to say although I really like what you said I was thinking that we would look to any policy changes and have those approved at the meeting or at least proposed at the meeting before the indicators would come because moning report yeah that was because how do you write the indicators if you don't know what changes we're going to make to the policy but I really like what you said I would recommend a meeting monthly on a routine time and place so that people can put it on their calendar and you'll review the last month's policies and make recommendations for the upcoming board meeting it would be a way to make it so you you

151know when it's coming and it'll be a little bit lagging in terms of when you're addressing stuff but that's perfectly fine for our purposes as administ had like the indicators along with that yeah you'd already have them then we usually get the indicators ahead get right meeting so in our in our current structure I think it's still I'm I'm just trying to make sense of the timing sorry so we could still have the the committee meets in the leadup to the monitoring report the informational item right and they could come that night having already looked at and and come with recommendations to discuss if we wanted to on changes that night or it takes two meetings to do a change well yeah you go through the process then but their their job is to do

152the homework come with hey we could we could reduce this we could shift this just as we're doing right now right at each at each point do not want to be on that meeting we consider that within the regular board meeting as an agenda item right and that would fit either with the one meeting or the one meeting where we where we both get the information and prove it right or what has been the traditional model where we get the monitoring report we also get the homework we have a two two weeks to consider it and then we vote on the proposed changes am I understanding that right I think so I mean basically what I'm hearing you say is like we could either do it pre right or I think what we were talking

153about was post like so we've the board reviews the monitoring report votes on it whether it has met what we expected to meet right there meet reasonable expectations Etc after that then the policy committee could take those things that we just did give them time to see if there's any changes and then in the next month come back and hear the things from the previous month that and we looked at and here are the changes that we feel are important so I think I think we we're all jelling at the same point just a matter of sense we can't change the monitoring report we're looking backwards and then we have the time to consider correct been brought forward and to discuss in the approval what we want to to have changed so let me ask

154this um in terms of time frame when do we want to start this because right now we're in end of January you know the new board comes in in April at the end of April the they their meetings will start May so really this policy committee will only last between now and our last board meeting in April there's always a new board right and then once the new board comes up you all as a new board would have to talk about creating a new committee because they only last until the board ends unless we extend it could we just start it with the new board that's why I'm asking I'm like do you want it now do you want it later I don't care one way or the other but we should be clear with

155each other about when do we want us to start and then and then when the new board is seated those of us who remain can be like this is a plan we put into place this is our goal with it let's get started that feels fine good again I just want to be clear because my assumption don't want to be on the committee I'm happy to be on the committee but it it makes it clear to me like does this board want it now and we need to start that work now so then we need to start building it we need to start finding who the committee is we need to start the you know what is the purpose who's on it when are they meeting or is this something that like let's just finish

156out the year and start a new year with a new group of people with a again you need to build a new common understanding with your new board anyway right so my opinion is it makes a heck of a lot more sense to start it with the new board than it is to try to pick up now because then you'll have to change it anyway yeah so I I agree absolutely okay so then that will be something to wait for the new board to deal with in terms of a policy committee Jim and I think it'd be good to have a packet of these expectations and then also the monitoring report so that you could put one side next to the other in the same booklet and you can say oh that's this is it

157that's how they monitor that yes so it sounds like that will be what will happen with the next board right so yeah yeah so I think the committee piece in terms of the policies I think we're we're we're not making decisions we're just talking about consensus at this point but I I do think that that makes a lot of sense and we can just have this board have that conversation at that point in time about what is the structure what's the purpose what information is necessary for the committee to finish their work MH okay so now we've got got we've got o 6 we've got R3 we've got o 11 and we've got a committee so we've we've done quite a bit in our two hours together I know Tim said he wanted to lead

158one of them I'm pretty sure I heard him to but you are a problem sounds like sounds like Tim chose you as a vice chair St with the pencil I got I got a prior commitment that day so what other work do we want to accomplish while we are together linkages l oh uh just an announcement in terms of the election of new board members maybe you're interested maybe you're not but on January 30th Thursday there's a meeting at tomorrow yeah that's tomorrow that's tomorrow that's at Bennett on Mormon and what will be there is all the school board members and all the mayor mayor candidates and candidates that are running for that City District so we're not necessarily interested in that but they'll be sitting at tables and you can go up it's a

159they call it a meet and eat so you just get to meet them and discuss whatever hi I'm so and so so if you're interested what time is it start thank you so Trevor you had something about well I mean we had it on our on our radar for today and I know we've we've had again so just going back my m Mor of some of our discussions about linkages was in particular thinking about the um what's the word like the efficacy of the questions in getting the kind of feedback that we're interested in right and I mean in our recent linguage linkages and it's always interesting there's a tension because if you if you if you ask people what's wrong you're that's that tends to dominate the discussion corre right and every everybody has

160things that they wish were were different right so I don't want to lose that opportunity for for people to highlight challenges because I think good insights have come from that um and but I I I do like the opportunity to to ask people to to find those moments of Celebration as well so that we can keep doing the things that are working right or looking for those opportunities too so I I don't know if other people had different senses of what the linkage is what part of the aspect of the linkage of situation we wanted to talk about and again just a reminder like again when we talk about things unique to the school District lacrosse the linkages with staff is unique to the school district of Lacrosse it is something that we believe in

161it is something that we believe is extremely important for the school board to remain connected but just recognize that that is one piece that is unique no other really you know our our facilitators would say that that's not a good thing to do because it undermines the ability of people to deal with issues with the administration and instead they have a for lack of better terms to work around to go around their building Administration go straight to the school board right so I mean again I'm not saying it's good or bad I'm just saying that's again pointing out something that's unique to us um and also the board always sets the questions at the beginning of the year like what are the linkage questions we want to ask so you know I think that that

162is also a good conversation let's start it here but I think in the end where it's going to end is when the new board gets seated and what do you want to see as your question but also what do you want to accomplish with those linkages who do you want to bring together I think it's good to start it here because it's going to be a long conversation but I think in the end the implementation will be after the new board gets seated am I I think does that make sense Okay so Tim had a great learning at the board convention yeah I I just have one suggestion is to re start off positive instead of negative in terms of the questions yes um I mean one of the speakers that we listened to was

163fantastic I mean I've listened to a ton of speakers that like to start off with positivity first right it just makes more sense to start with the Positive stuff first I think the question could be more specific too right that's very very broad what what makes you drout but like I but I don't I don't necessarily I want them to talk about everything that's well I I do too but I think in terms of being specific like asking them like what's working at your building like right that's the kind of thing that I also think positive and then concerns or um opportunities yeah but I think it's also important to end in a positive so you know there's that's what what I always try to do in my meetings is you know you start out

164positive you go through your opportunities or issues and then you end in a positive too because we're we're doing a lot more well than we're not right so we want to we want to celebrate the good things as well I was taught that the linkages are our way to talk with our um stakeholders about because our job is to set the policy and our policies have to reflect the values of our stakeholders and so it's really our conversation with stakeholders to inform us so that we can make sure our policies continue to match that I I agree with that wholehearted ly but my only um concern is that you're primarily meeting with your employees you're not meeting with your stakeholders primarily and if I were to make a recommendation to shift it I think it's

165great to meet with staff I think it's weird you don't let administrators there um but you could meet with the elementary group the middle group The High School group Lea you know if that's four you capture everybody every year everybody gets a shot to talk to the board but then there should be at least four if not five or six communitybased ones with the PTO at districtwide parent with the local legislators with regional Representatives with the Chamber of Commerce with the youth serving organizations I think that's where um you know some of those have probably slid off the radar from years ago and I think to reinvigorate that point so that the balance of linkages are with the community and the stakeholders not the balance with the employees that's a perfectly valid thing to do

166and I think it's great to get that feedback but I looked at 10 years of linkage notes and it's the same themes every single time not enough staff tough kids wish we had more money salary and benefits wish administrators were present more wish they understood what we did you know it's the same six things every single year and it's good to hear that and get that feedback and there are some variations and some ad hoc stuff but I would just hope that the balance of the linkages are with the stakeholders and the community not with staff I think that's a great idea I second I have that that's what we used to do and my problem with that is uh how do you get a I'm going to say this across section of the community

167to um I mean I think that would be a good discussion question as far as where do you meet that general public uh to have that good conversation with and you don't get just a select few I have neighborhood meetings and I know when when there's an issue all I hear is the voices of those that are against M with that being said I think that happens though with our staff too getting just I mean I think yeah but you get the world is run by people who show up when the entire staff is there I don't think that's necessar you have the but we don't we don't get we had one where I'm pretty sure the entire staff was there I mean it was I me and that compared to Logan Middle was night

168and day Logan Middle had what two people you know was embarrassment and think think about when that has happened though like the linkage ad hension was like everybody right and it depends on if it's during or immediately after their staff meeting and we try and schedule them associated with staff meeting so that you get a broad crosssection but depending on what's going on that day if the staff meeting got cancelled then nobody's showing up and it also depends on if there's like a a moment of Crisis right in the the Comm which we have just sort of been through so clearly there was there was going to be a lot of interested parties especially at the most intimately affected buildings right so but I I think there are natural opportunities to meet with city council

169natural opportunities with we go to districtwide parents there's a natural opportunity to capture all those but you know that's a great thing that you say about city council cuz I feel like we're on like two separate planets sometimes absolutely when we have a lot of things going on you know in the future we have some buildings and properties and things that but also but also remember it's not just lacrosse city council but it's like town of Shelby board town of Campbell board right and so so it's all but we're so intertwined because strong schools develop what it it develops the city and people move in and you know school district is so you know yeah but I agree with we also we also need to be careful because those those communities are also part of

170the school district so I don't want those communities feeling like well we're so with lacrosse what about us when all of us are together I love to hear Aaron had some great suggestions about the linkages in the community where you're you're you're building out you're learning from the community but what I think the linkage is without putting administrators there you're building a culture of distrust towards Administration and um there's a lot of ways to to gather information about you know how we're doing or what's going on and we've got surveys out there and and if you do kind of what Erin suggests I think that that's a better idea but I think when you're talking about the community going out city councils and connecting with the community that those are your stakeholders those are you

171know when we looked at the organ organizational show at the beginning they're they're the people that we're that you are representing sure and uh I think the only thing I would disagree with is you know the administrators being in the room I know at least in my place of employment my director reports will have a much different conversation if I'm in the room versus if I'm not in the room and right and and we do have opportunities also that we should be connecting with District leadership team if we're going to be connecting with the faculty separately so I mean again I think that I I don't disagree that there may be those feelings of of this trust that are built however I also know that different conversations will happen depending on who's in there in

172that room at that point in time but I but I do agree that Administration should be part of like Council meetings and I think it develops more they'll they'll get to know you more they'll understand your point I think Administration being part of those would be a key I think it would be very important to have them part of that especially they're often answering asking questions about administrative stuff and we can help support the board and and like relating some of that stuff yeah so in either case but it sounds like you know we are jelling on this idea that um maybe we might be too heavy internally looking versus externally looking and we should come up with some Surefire way that we get a a crosssection of town yeah and there are district is

173tough yeah I mean there are districts that do this well across the country and I'm thinking one in Colorado if I remember correctly has has built a culture in their Community where literally they've got you know I can't remember how many linkages but I know like they have one at 6:00 a.m. at a coffee shop to try to catch like the third shifters they have another one that'll be offered around the noon time to capture other people who are available and they'll have another one that's in the evening to capture a different cross-section so they do have ways to do it it's just a matter of what's going to work in Lacrosse and and our surrounding communities that make up the school district versus um you know I think the point about building culture is

174we we can't expect even if we come up with a great solution it's it's going to take time to get people to invest in it and as new people come in and you hopefully you bring them right on board that's all going to take time I mean that's yep a dissertation about that I think in the meantime we can we can we can start getting feelers out you know because there's going to be a new mayor and all that right so we can start getting feelers out to um you know the visitor and you know the Visitor Bureau get a hold of some of them there at convention center and we can start going out and tell them what we'd like to start doing and they could start working on it prior to this and

175work with them you know because I I think it's yeah I think it's important to you're right I think it's that part of it PTO from schools start sending out information on that because that's where you're going to get the teachers that uh I should say the parents of the kids M absolutely I we can it this is another thing that won't start till next year we're wrapped up our linkage schedule absolutely so I think in April when we see the new board it might be a great time to throw out a new linkage schedule and Laura has worked on that in the past I think we can put together a draft of that and have it ready for April when we see the new board yeah so you'll have it ready Monday so is

176there anything that we want to continue discussing or schedule another time to discuss in regards to linkages or do we feel like waiting for the new board to get seated and starting that conversation then makes more sense I eventually I'd like to actually when I know that Tim had brought this up before as we get results it would be nice to have meetings on the linkages like right away what do you mean meetings on the linkages just talk about the outcome where what we heard yeah what we heard and more of a like this type of format when we can go through these you know it often comes up like at the end when there's like is there any announcements people have but it could be an agenda item it used to be an agenda

177item back under policy governance when I look back at uh the old uh agenda items I think it may have been moved moved to consent because it was often not a lot of commentary and it almost felt performative um based on my listening to recordings back then too you know so I think if folks want to talk about it just put it on an agenda item too easy or also I mean everybody has the right to pull something from the consent agenda and have a conversation right so I mean we don't necessarily need an agenda item if somebody wants to pull them we can pull them and have the conversation at that point in time because there may be linkages where we don't have anything to say there may be linkages where we have a

178lot to say yeah that's that's why I'm wondering if we can't have more of this type of thing with the linkages where we can be we can ask the difficult questions it doesn't need to be not everything needs to be such a public outcry of things I mean there might be sensitive stuff we want to talk about and you know that's why because to his point you're some of that we're going to hear every every linkage is going to be the same where that's probably why it was put on the consent yeah but there are areas where we would like to pull off and kind of talk about yeah and what I would say to that is I mean it's kind of funny that you say that because that was part of the conversation about

179whether these workshops should be live or not yeah because when they're live again just like having an administrator in the room you're going to have different conversations than if they're not live right but everybody wanted transparency of the board and so we all agreed that we were going to make live stream these so that everybody can see what we're talking about so in terms of having a more confident conversation about things in the linkages there's only certain things under state law that we can have that are confidential everything else must be public so at that in that regard I think the only difference is are you going to do it in a workshop or do you want to do it in the regular board meeting but in the end it's going to be public so

180how do we want to you know again I I think easy to just pull something off the consent agenda and have that robust conversation because you can have it when you pull it off or we can set it a separate agenda item is the linkage is like 2 months I can't remember how long it's spread apart takes us about 3 to 4 months depending on the year maybe a little longer you know so there's like a season it's the winter late fall to winter I mean students are in the spring yeah a a workshop on the linkages after they've all concluded where what we're talking about is how did the linkages as a system go that that makes that to me makes a lot more sense where at the end we can also talk about

181like these questions work right you know maybe we have some different ideas for the next iteration so I think that makes sense but you know if we want to talk about specifically about the linkage and the linkages that have occurred right you know then we can do that at any point in time if we have linkage notes and we just pull them off the consent we have the conversation yeah I think the difference is between talking about what is what is the value of what the linkages are giving us as a board and specific concerns that have come up within a particular linkage abely yeah no I do agree that you know is that something the board is interested in doing again um between now and April and you know again just like indicators we're

182starting to add stuff which is totally fine but when do we want to do this and what does the agenda allow us to do right so I mean if we want to do this in March April I mean I I think a standing agenda items not the not hard at all to have a linkage agenda item and if there's no we're talking about more the global that I would say March you would want to wrap up with this board you know to kind of review what's going on make recommendations for the next board and maybe it's all the same people or maybe it's a few different you know but um I think March is the perfect time to kind of have a wrap up yeah we typically have the student linkages in April and then

183District by parent is normally in May so just keep that in consideration and we can shift those too in the future so that that makes sense for March to have a plan for the new board to say this is what the structure of the linkages will be these this is what the questions will be so that and then when the new board gets seated they could look at that and make adjustments as needed but at least there would be a foundational creation of something had some expertise from a Year's worth of working with it exactly right and yeah I was just thinking I think you're anticipating it you got new board members coming in you're asking them to be like all right this is what you're going to be doing for a year in terms

184of this process some folks might be like I want to pause and wait on that every governing body in the world every body ties the hands of the group that comes after it right I'm okay with saying like we've been through this round of linkages here are the kinds of changes we want to think about here's our recommendations over time here's recommendations that we are giving to you and now you do what you want with it right yeah I can't imagine what would be so vastly different but well I think what I heard tonight is the questions are not the greatest and we need to adjust those right and so at least one thing for sure we will at least provide a recommend to the new board that comes in yeah so there are no

185perfect questions I I've had discussions I've been part of discussions for literally 20 years about how to write the right linkage questions and we still haven't figured it out but um doesn't mean we should stop trying so I just want to clarify so we will still have on the consent agenda the linkage notes and if we want to pull them off technolog something we can still do that I I like that opportunity because again I don't want to be it's would be inappropriate to say well I just don't know why Administration can't do X Y or Z and the staff really upset about this and why aren't you fighting administrat have more teachers like that totally inappropriate but sometimes I think it's good to acknowledge we heard XY or Z because these individuals took time

186out of the day that they didn't have to come to talk to us and they did and I think those are important things to say I actually think it should just be on the agenda I think it should be on the agenda and we ought to at least brought it up that we heard we we don't need to get real deep into things we can explain to him at the end of the year we're going to go all through all these but I think it's important for him to to hear that we you know we heard they were heard yeah yeah sorry I left I just when you said get deep into things oh yeah we tend to do that oops not only say that we heard him but in some cases a difference was

187made yeah it's one thing to listen another things to do something so I think I think Deb your point about perfect questions is well well made I think it also it it ties in with what Tim was a very rightly saying is that the framing of everything really impacts what you get as well so I I for one I I think I will come with like some suggested questions right or some framework for the questions as well as the order of asking them things so yeah well good luck on that in March and then you can do World Peace if you figure this out I think world peace is right next on there well have I mean you have unique perspective as I feel capacity for that right so yeah I'm happy to try we'll

188see what happens what else do we need to discuss I know it's been longer than most people wanted to but I think it's been very helpful so thank you everyone I love the workshops yeah me too I will say I again it is public it should be public um it but having it a different night than our board meeting has created a casualness that I think has helped facilitate this I think we're usually all pretty tired after the board meetings I think that's the challenge we try to get into something and have a conversation and it's just hard to stay focused right this started at the same time as our normal board meeting where we have energy I think have right and then you know two and a half hours in we may not have

189that same energy so and I think as we move down the line maybe we want to look at that a little more you know not to have not have them at the same night as the board every at board meeting every time because it does get to be long and you know and dear point if we're adding on to we're adding things to the agenda you know and and then we cutting people off because we got it the end before right you know I've obviously in the council we've had meetings that have lasted after 10 11: p.m. you know but I think it's important you know to be heard too so I agree I would I would add to that though you know just thinking from my my own perspective my family situation work situation

190everything depending on who is elected as new board members you might have folks for like adding meetings on different nights and different nights and different nights like I'm committed to what the work is and and being present for everything and and whatever I can but like recognize that there are always going to be limitations to what people can do but maybe and maybe we don't need them both nights I mean you know right the maybe we just have them one of the nights of our board meetings instead of both on and we occasionally we do that and it's like a gift to us every time wow there's no you know meeting afterwards so that's maybe we can limit it to at least once a month I I agree because my my concern would not be

191like not having a linkage every every day or every every meeting rather um but like not having the sense that we're not having a discussion when it when it needs to be had right like so our our short me sorry our short meeting you know their actual meeting went went short the other night and then the Clos session on top of that but I don't feel like there was something we should have filled that time with right so that's that's what I'm getting and maybe it might be helpful to just plan uh an offn night Workshop quarterly put it get on the calendar and if it's far quarterly isn't I don't think a burdensome to people but if you get it on the calendar I mean if there is nothing then we don't do it

192but I think there's always something we could come up with and if we do it quarterly it could be again our workshops end up being so short because we're always out of time yeah this might be a really so being in some of those breakout sessions there's School boards that have they'll have their their normal meeting and then the next will be a workshop meeting and not have two board meetings I don't know how they make that work or if it's feasible but just throwing it out to well not really cut down the indicators there's a lot of school boards that have two meetings a month one is committee meeting night the other one's take care of business night or it's workshop and professional development then the other one is business it's incumbent then to

193like do the business quickly and not belabor it and part of that's our monitoring report and we can talk about that a lot of the other part of it is reading the stuff in advance and coming prepared to just ask your questions before you get to the meeting and then just taking care of business when you're there and right now because we provide so much information it's hard to look at it in the 4 days beforehand uh so I recognize that as a difficulty but there are ways around it you know there are some boards that put time limits on agenda items knowing that we could talk about it all night or we could just say it's going to be 10 minutes and we're moving on yeah and some like the the council you you

194had three times you could talk about it three times and and you done you know and that's been at least in my presidency in my perspective I've never wanted to put a time limit and I've never wanted to put limits on how many times a person could speak because that's why we're here right um and it is interesting to me in the previous time I was President we could get regular board meeting and workshop and Clos session done in three hours right and so that's why I always say like you know the meeting will take as long as we want it to and so to your point of have we said what we needed to say have we covered the agenda as we needed it to cover did we feel like we had enough did

195we miss something um you know I think every individual will figure that out as they go um and every board has that opportunity at the beginning that it they're just trying to get their feet under them and then we find a Groove and then we start moving and don't take this the wrong way but we obviously see different you know on a lot of things and that's why it's taking longer absolutely I think your former board you were all pretty much you know on the same page and again and that's that's the beauty of having different boards right and and the times you know politically as well as just what's going on within the schools will will also drive that so I agree I do have to share this because it was actually funny and

196I'm only sharing it because it was funny but there was a school district I only in the school district but they had to have a workshop because they were not disagreeing Enough by the community's perspective yeah they were passing things too easily and agreeing on everything which is which it was crazy to hear that I'm glad that we have yeah but but also on the flip side like that does happen it does right there are things where we are okay and even the community will come to us and say Well why'd you just rubber stamp that well Tech we actually did the work we did do the re we just well Monday was one of those Monday was I me and it's it's not as long as we treat each other with respect we can

197disagree all absolutely day long I mean as long as I know why you disagree absolutely you know and there's and OB it's not going to stop because we'll disagree more down the road absolutely um but as we I think and I hope with that that I hope everybody I don't attack I try not to attack people and I I understand we each have our own opinion and that's the beauty of it the sooner we get to know each other the easier that all will be yes and that's helpful getting to know people Chris CLA was a board president for many years when I was on the board um I remember uh right when Act 10 was starting and a bunch of teachers called in six so they could go to the capital and um it

198was uh on a Thursday because Friday was supposed to be off of school and so Thursday we would have sent home a grocery bag with a lot of the kids to get through the long weekend and so we ended up closing school on Thursday because we didn't have enough staff here they couldn't get enough Subs to keep the school open so we didn't have school that day and so we had a lively discussion at the table about should the teachers get paid for that day or not and Chris and I could not disagree more in fact the the level of where one and I disagree we were at that level or wor but Chris and I she's one of my very best friends and I'm one of her very best friends and it's so the

199the disagreement at the table doesn't it it it's at the table and then you're done and um I think I I always enjoyed that and I mean to this day Chris and I disagree and it's so interesting on Facebook it looks like how could we ever be friends and um we have so much more in common than we disagree with yeah I agree 100% as long as you know why the person that not just push it off if you really want to get to know somebody just go 6 hours in a car ride with is there a chance we can agree to adj I was going to say on that note I think that's a positive note in which you say let's get out of here so thank you everybody everybody toward the center of

200the line and [Music]