January 21st, 2026 - Board of Education, Special Workshop Meeting

001Heat. Hey, Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Oh, [music] hey. >> [music] [music] >> Hey, hey, hey. >> [music] [music] >> Oh >> [music] [music] >> yeah. >> [music] [music] >> Oh, hey. >> [music] [music] >> Okay. >> [music] [music] >> Hey. [music] Hey. Hey. >> [music] >> Hey. Hey. Hey. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Hey. [music] Hey. Hey. >> [music] [music] >> Heat up here. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Hey. [music] Hey. Hey. >> [music] [music] >> morning. [music] Hey >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Hey. [music] Hey. Hey. >> [music] [music] >> Mhm. [clears throat] So anything you say is now being All right. >> Okay. Are we ready? >> All right. So, thank you everybody for being here. Thank you for your patience. As

002you all know, um hopefully you all can hear me. Um during various um conversations when employment matters come up there have been some questions that the board has raised about how we are proceeding and should this be the way we are proceeding. So you asked for this workshop and if we can go to the first slide please. The basic purpose of this workshop is to review what um the questions are that have come up focus and focus it really on the question of how to manage employee resignations when there is a resignation issued. We've talked about during this the regular year we've also talked about resignation in lie of termination. The primary question today is going to be looking at the question of resignation in lie of termination. And as you all know, the board's

003primary means of governing the district is through these policy discussions with the administration or in the process of actually uh approving formal policies for the board. So that's a brief supplemental overview of our purpose tonight in addition to what the board president and superintendent have shared. I'm going to start the presentation. Next slide, please. Um just going over some key rules that govern dismissals and resignations. Uh this is not meant to be the waterfront and what I'm not going to talk about is when we have separations that are related to reductions in force. That's a whole different topic, but that is not tonight's topic. So what I would ask after I go through the rules, as the superintendent um requested, please if you have questions, just kind of note them. Once we're through with that,

004we will pose the question to the board and provide the district's administration. That's a time for dialogue and questions at that point. That will help move the presentation along efficiently, I believe. Um so really basic general rules, employment at the district is at will unless there is a written contract, a statutory provision, uh or other sort of mutual understanding between an employer and an employee. That employment is something other than at will. At will basically means we can hire and fire as we flee, right? Unless there's something else that's going to control. Principles under the school code are required to make recommendations for retention to the superintendent. The superintendent's responsibility is to then make recommendations to you as a board on the question and it is your bo your decision as a board to decide

005whether or not somebody should be separated from the district. These principles of just kind of governance as to whose role is what are already in board policies 21101 district governance and in 4109 line of responsibility. Um hopefully the links in the presentation for those of you that have access to it will take you to the direct policy. If not it is available on the board's general policy website. At will employees as I mentioned can be dismissed any time for any reason. All employees also can be be dismissed for cause or if the law allows it. Various procedures for dismissal are going to depend on what board policy says. If there's a collective bargaining agreement that has language that governs it. and all of our collective bargaining agreements speak to dis discipline and grievance procedures. Um,

006if there's some language in an individual contract, an employment contract term may sometimes say, you know, if there's going to be an early termination, how that proceeds and if there are state and federal laws that come into play under the school code in particular, there are certain mandates about employment in schools. First of all, if you do not have a proper teaching license for the assignment that you hold, you cannot work in the school. If you don't have a teaching license and you are assigned to a position that the school code says requires a teaching license, you cannot hold the position unless you have like the sublicens or we do still have licenses. Uh you do have a valid license with stipulations. If you might be working towards something, you still then are properly licensed.

007But for example, I have my law license and I have a social work license that or I had a social life work license. It's it's been reserved at this point, but I couldn't go in and teach a class on uh social behavior. I couldn't teach a class on English because I'm not certified that or licensed for that. Also, if you have had a conviction of certain crimes that are usually felony offenses within the last seven years or more serious offenses such as murder, aggravated offenses, using firearms, those types of things, you may be prohibited from employment in the schools as well as drug offenses unless it's a first time and you've gotten probation and you have successfully completed that probation. Those are black and white rules in the code. If those facts exist, you cannot

008work for the schools. If that were to come about with employees that are already working for us, that would be grounds for pursuing their termination and dismissal. Also, if the juvenile court has identified an individual as a perpetrator of child and abuse, you cannot work in the schools. The school code was recently amended to say if DCFS has made an indicated finding of abuse or neglect, we must consider that in the employment process. But that's not a mandatory can't hire. We have to make a judgment call as to whether it's appropriate for them to be hired or not. When you are a tenur teacher, one other mandatory provision is if you have gone through an evaluation process, you scored unsatisfactory, you were given a 90-day remediation plan as required by the school code and the

009evaluation plan put in place with bargaining agreements and you do not complete that with a proficient or higher evaluation, you are to be pursued for dismissal. So those are some of the mandatory dismissal rules in the school code. The next side of this slide speaks to when the school district must report instances of misconduct to the state board of education. They're going to somewhat mirror what you heard for mandatory um un uh lack of employment. If there is a pending criminal charge or a conviction of a prohibited offense, then we must report that to the state board of education. They will then determine what to do with the license. If an employee is dismissed or otherwise resigns for reasonable cause that is related, we believe reasonably, let me rephrase that, the employer reasonably believes the

010resignation or dismissal was related to an intentional act of abuse and neglect or an allegation of sexual misconduct as defined by faith law, then we must report that to Isby so they can take a look at the license that that individual holds. Briefly, there's a detailed definition of sexual misconduct um under face law, but just very generally, it includes grooming. It includes sexual harassment type behavior, sexual inappropriate sexual contact between teachers and students or um uh exposing them to sexually inappropriate materials. Next slide. When we talk about ESP dismissals and ESP means educational support personnel and it pretty much applies to anybody other than somebody who holds a license uh professional educator's license. Boards have general authority explicitly in the code to hire educational support personnel for a variety of different roles. There is no

011specific statement in the school code about your authority to dismiss them. But there is a general rule in the code that the courts also rely on to support your authority to dismiss individuals who are educational support personnel that says you have the authority to uh implement any rule that you need to in order to implement anything else in the school code. So by implication, that rule gives you the authority to dismiss educational support personnel. There is one provision specifically when it comes to making reports of child abuse and neglect. If a non-licensed staff member, so that specifically does not apply to licensed teachers. So it's the non-licensed staff. You may, you're not required, you may immediately dismiss for willful or negligent failure to report suspected abuse or neglect. And negligent failure to report involves if

012the employee during their job, during their official duties, personally observed an instance of what they believe is suspected abuse or neglect, they reasonably believe it is abuse and neglect, and they failed to timely report it. It says immediately. Immediately doesn't mean it happened at 9:00 and at 9:01 I reported it. You may not be able to immediately get to your computer, but it is as soon as practical afterwards and we would expect it to be within the no later than the end of the day and even closer to that at your first break, you would be reporting that. I do also want to just remind people if multiple people are aware, every person who has knowledge that works in the school, your duty is to ensure at least one of you has reported. So, if

013all of us here knew and I knew Amanda reported, then I have done my duty because I know it's been reported. But if I saw it happen and I don't know if any of the administrators at the table reported, then it's on me to report and everybody else to find out, hey Kathy, did you report this? So, if there's ever a group situation, my recommendation as an aside is always make sure you know who's going to report and then follow up that they did. Um, because we have this language that says if you willfully or negligently fail to report, you may be dismissed. Next slide. When it comes to teacher dismissals, the school code is more explicit. The general rule is on the left. You have the authority to dismiss a teacher for any of

014these reasons. Incompetency, cruel, negligence, immorality, other sufficient cause on the basis of their performance not meeting expectations. That really kind of ties into that evaluation piece in part. Whenever in your opinion they're not qualified to teach or whenever you think it's in the interest of the district to let the individual go. But you have to make those decisions within the context of what the law requires. is the bargaining agreement and with all of our bargaining agreements just cost. Egregious misconduct also is called out and is something that very specifically if it's egregious my word but with tenur teachers it is the school code will speak to remediable. If it's irrediable we can move to dismiss without having to show we've made efforts for improvement and changing behavior. or when you're in the evaluation context as

015well, they have acknowledged that through the evaluation process, if you learn of irrediable um deficiencies in performance or actions which are injurious to or endanger the health or person of students in class or at school, that is grounds for moving forward immediately with dismiss. So this is where the code is giving you some authority to take action when the facts of each case fits in. Board policy then has considered a lot of these different rules. And in board policy 4302 we identified egregious misconduct. And what we identified as egregious misconduct is listed here. Theft when it's over a value of $300, whether that's money or property or conversion of funds. If you lie or make materially false statements or misrepresentations in formal investigations about your own employment qualifications, which is another reason that the the

016school code says if you don't properly represent your qualifications, you can't work in the schools and they can pull your license. um various sexual misconduct including face laws, sexual harassment, uh engaging in um intentional physical harm to students, convictions for crimes for which you can't work in the school and other conduct for which there's irreparable harm to the district or irreparable harm to the reputation of the employee. Um and that's all built into our code. Now, I'm going to shift over to what the school code says about teacher resignation specifically. You really have to think of this in three buckets. The first bucket is the general bucket. Any teacher can resign at any time as long as the board says you're okay with that. So, they would bring it to the board. If you say,

017"Yep, we're good." They can resign. That's bucket one. Now, you break that down. If a teacher comes to you as the board in the middle of the school term and says, "I would like to resign two weeks, 30 days, 3 months, but sometime before the school year ends, and we have knowledge that they are resigning to take a teaching position someplace else, they may not resign under the school code unless the board agrees." So the board can say no, that's not in the interest of our district. It's not your professional obligation to us. We do not agree. And if you don't agree, you also can determine to refer that teacher to the Illinois State Board of Education for review of their teaching license for unprofessional conduct. the state um has through the it's it's a

018combination of the state board of ed and the teacher certification um departments will look at that and they have the authority to suspend that teaching license for up to one year in the school code. This is a conversation the board had and last January, I think it was, you confirmed that you supported moving forward with those referrals. In those instances, if a resignation came to the board and the board did not agree to allow the resignation and we knew it was for the individual to take another teaching position. This isn't a situation when somebody's taking another teaching position because the family's moving to Iowa. That's the resignation we're moving and yeah, I'm going to continue my career. This is the situation where, hey, I found another teaching position within driving distance of my current job

019and it pays me better. I like that district better. I've been trying to get there. Whatever the reason is, during the school term. The third bucket is during summer session. Summer session is after the last day of um school in the regular school term until the first day of student attend attendance. The school code is very clear. It says that you can submit that written resignation. It should be to the superintendent in writing. But if it was if it is within 30 calendar year days of the next school term starting the first student attendance day then we treat it as if you are trying to resign during the school year. The rule helps support stability in employment to have all of your classes filled at the beginning of the year and not think you have

020it filled and then suddenly you don't have a teacher for two or three classes because they held out and they got a better offer someplace else. When we look at how these resignations are dealt with in the bargaining agreements that govern our licensed staff, that's the teachers agreement and the psychologist agreement, they both use the same language. They expect the teachers, and this is a quote, to uphold the law and professional standards in regard to official resignations and procedurally follow the school code. board policy has that same timing consideration in it, but it also has a statement that says the board will accept a resignation as long as we get 30 days prior notice and it is not a resignation during the middle of the school year in order to take a another teaching position.

021That used to be in the school code, specifically that 30-day language. It is no longer in the school code. It is any time you can resign with board concurrence, but they don't conflict. So, this might be something at some point if you feel you want to change that language in your policy, you can let us know or the administration may make that recommendation and then we would bring that policy change forward. But right now, it's all in alignment. >> Right. Hold your question. >> No, I just want you to rewind what you said. The board policy currently says if we get the resignation with at least 30 days notice before it's effective and it is not during the school year, the board will accept it. [snorts] The union bargaining agreement says you need to resign

022following the school code procedures. It wouldn't have that 30-day piece because the law changed a couple years ago, but the policy does not conflict with the change in the law. You can leave that language in. You can direct that we ought to rethink this. So, I just wanted to make it clear. It's not a conflict and it is a current policy statement, but the controlling language is going to be the bargaining agreement which says we're going to follow the school code. Okay. Then we have ISB's lure review practices. Next slide please. ISBE, like many of us, prioritizes what they have to focus on. When referrals come in the door, they prioritize on these three issues based on conversations I've had, when the allegations involved harm to students, including sexual abuse or physical abuse. If criminal

023charges have been filed, they may not act on it in terms of anything longterm at that point, but they may suspend it pending resolution of the criminal case. And that may also depend upon what is the nature of the criminal charge. Just don't have that level of detail. All of these decisions are individualized and fact specific. And the third one are the resignations during the school term. That is what they prioritize. So the primary question for discussion tonight is should resignations in lie of termination be limited. Remember we already had talked as a board about the concept that if somebody resigns during the school term and the board does not agree with that because and and they are going to take another [clears throat] teaching position that you concurred with referrals to ISBY to look

024at those. This question therefore is should resignations in lie of termination be limited and the administration's recommendation is yes they should in those cases when the egregious misconduct involves behavior that has to be reported to ISBY. So that's their position. That is what they would like you to discuss. And the point of this discussion tonight is whether you agree with that position. >> Yes, please. >> So, we've had a long conversation as a board of when to accept resignations. Oh, sorry. We've had um some conversation as a board of when to accept resignations in lie of terminations. Our recommendation is to not accept the resignation when the act is egregious and needs to be reported to Isby. And that is on slide. What number is that where it's at? I pulled it out, but >>

025I think it's one. I couldn't figure out how >> it says school code mandates and am I correct? Yeah. And so what that entails is pending criminal charge or conviction of prohibited offense, reasonable cause to believe, intentional act of child abuse or neglect, sexual misconduct and sexual misconduct and license holder was dismissed or resigned. So I'm just reading everything she has there. So that is our recommendation. and we turn it over to you for your guidance. Did you have a question? >> Yes, you were reading that one. >> Okay. >> Which which slide is that? That's why I asked. >> Is there a second one? >> Is that the board policy? >> Board policy. All staff. egregious misunders >> the the board policy all staff is what we have identified in the policy as egregious

026misconduct. >> Okay. and and we pulled a lot of those and identified them as such a because they are things that the school code really also identifies as being significant concerns for which that's an appropriate consideration. >> Okay, then I got mixed up on the clock the slides. I apologize. So Kathy, are you saying this is the slide? No, it's the previous one, right? >> Correct. >> We have the correct slide. It's the reporting >> mechanism that you want, >> right? >> Yeah. >> So, what we're saying is what is states that we need to report, that is where we should not accept a resignation versus a termination. However, when uh Miss Vanderbrock explained this to me, she says we have three things moving and I'm going to miss one. One is our policy, one

027is the statute, and the third was >> Bargaining agreements. Thank you. Mhm. Okay. So, so this page that says school mandates on the left side you have when we can't have them people employed. On the right side you have what we must refer to is bey. >> Does that clarify? And I'm standing because as you discuss I'm going to go over to the board and capture your comments. Miss Sienna. >> Okay. I got um I started writing. you know me, I would rather ask when it's being talked about, but um I'm going back to the general rules um and uh employment with the district is at will. >> Yes. And my question for that is, is this a state law or is this district? >> It's a general employment law rule. All employment is at

028will unless there's a contract that says I have a right to be employed for a certain period of time. Using the collective bargaining agreement as an example, that is a contract that says you can't just dismiss me for any reason. You can only dismiss me for cause or there's a statute that says you can't work for me. So if we learn somebody has been convicted of attempt to distribute drugs, then they can no longer work for us. >> Right. So is it so it you say it's a general >> it's a general rule >> rule from where? >> It's a general employment rule. I don't >> only general employment. No, >> it's a general employment rule across the board. We in this district do not have a policy that says that statement, but the Illinois

029Association of School Boards does have some policy language that speaks to employees at will. Usually that's your educational support personnel, but we also have to consider what bargaining language is there. We have a policy that says when we appoint staff, generally you're going to be appointed for a year. so that we have stability and employment. I didn't put that policy in here because this was about separation, not employment. Okay. All right. And now going to the next um the next point. Principles make retention uh recommendations to the superintendent. Is okay. There aren't there deadline date requirements for Yes, >> for >> there are there are for probationary teachers if you're going to to non renew them, but this presentation wasn't about that which is why they're not talking in general. >> Yes. >> Okay. What

030is nonnegotiable duty? >> Non-eleigable. That means that means that you can't tell the superintendent fire this person. >> Oh, >> that means the board has to make the decision. >> The school code says it is her job to make the recommendation to you. It's not your job to make the recommendation to her. You hire her to run the schools. >> It is your job though to act on what recommendations she makes. So if the under general rules I'll change flip the page. So uh pro procedures for dismissal and determining cause may vary and under board policy. My question is can a policy remove that at will clause? >> I'm sorry. So, I'm pausing because if the policy reflects a statement of the statute that says you can't work for the district if you've had this

031conviction like your criminal background check policy has, then I can't hire you or I can't keep you employed. Whether you are at will or not is going to depend on your job. If you're a tenure teacher, you have tenure protections, >> right? >> That's not going to go away. That's going to control over at will. If you have a written contract that says we hire you from date A to date B, I can't have a policy that then says, but if I feel like it for some other reason, I can get rid of you. But if I have just cause, I can. If my policy speaks to reasons that we could pursue recommendations for termination, then you know, remember at will is I can dismiss you anytime for any reason. So the policy isn't really

032going to take away your atill status. The policy is going to put you on notice. If you engage in this behavior, you might have a problem with continuing employment with us. >> Okay. Can I finish my questions? I I just wrote some things down as we went along. >> Okay. >> That's what we asked you to do. >> And now I'm at school code mandates. >> Can Can I just pause a minute? Mr. Riddle, was your question related to what she just asked about or is it something different? >> Okay. Can we let her continue? We'll go after that then. Thank you. >> Then I'll be done. >> Okay. Mandates. Yes. >> Yeah. Um uh how are we okay if you talked about um uh I guess you were speaking of teachers >> in some

033of them not all >> okay in where under employment proh prohibited when that's what I'm looking at >> right the teaching license is clearly going to be your teachers or administrators who need to have a teaching license >> and then your evaluations is going to be teachers. The other two could be any employee. >> Okay. But my question is um how are um employees uh being placed in positions that they are not licensed for. And I'm going by what you were saying that they have to be licensed for social studies, right? or science. >> I'm going to let Mr. Figueroa give you some examples of when that has come to light and how that's come to light. >> We might have provisional uh licenses like in the case of transitional bilingual teachers those are good

034for five years. After five years that license will expire and they need to have completed coursework and lensure requirements by ESB so they will be able to uh obtain a new license. So that's a a possible case scenario. The other the other possible case scenario is a teacher who is licensed in social study. I think she mentioned social work as an example to herself. She's a social worker but she cannot teach certain classes just because they're associated with her title or license but ESB regulates the requirement for the other position. So if a principal move a teacher from one position to other the other one is is not qualified for that new position but then that person cannot hold that uh position. Failure to also to comply with lensure because the the state have some

035bureaucratic timelines and what it takes for them to process requirements. At the end of the day, the person is found that do doesn't obtain the license for the position, then the person cannot continue in that position. >> Okay. And I'm still on school code mandate. Thank you, Mr. Figueroa. Um, under um superintendent notification required when license holders. Does this mean all of the Okay, it says pending criminal charge or conviction of prohibited offense, right? >> Mhm. >> And it it talks about and I mean, I guess it's kind of elementary that we're talking about students, right? No, the first one for pending criminal charges is if there's a pending criminal charge against the employee, then we can and that employee holds a teaching license, we are required to report that to the state superintendent. >>

036But my question is, does that mean adult victims too? it it's the criminal charge irrespective of whether it's an adult or a student. >> Okay, that's >> if the if the state's attorney has issued a charge, >> that's what they're talking about. >> Okay, so >> in terms of a pending charge and then if you are convicted, that means the criminal court has looked at it and you've been convicted of the crime charged. >> Okay, but I'm talking about adult victims of the uh the pending criminal charges if it happens in the district. That's what I'm saying. >> It doesn't. So, let me let me rephrase because maybe I'm catching this correctly. Are you asking if I'm the victim of the charge? Can I be dismissed? >> No. No, I'm not asking. >> Good. Good.

037Good. >> No. No. No. >> No. The charge doesn't have to be against a child or an adult. It can be either. And it doesn't have to have happened in the school setting. It can be any place. >> Okay. So, I think I'm not sure, but and all through the thing I'm looking for, um things that like would cover uh adults, uh staff members, and I'm not seeing that. I'm just seeing students referencing students, but not uh staff. So yes, I think it is true. We don't have a statement, for example, in the school code that says if you sexually harass another staff member, you can't work for a school district. But we do have rules that say if you engage in sexual misconduct with a student, refer that to ISBY because they're going to

038look at the license. So what you have here is what the school code has determined as a matter of public policy. If you engage in sexual misconduct with a student, that is more egregious in a school setting and you shouldn't be able to work in a school setting than if you engaged in sexual misconduct with an adult. But that doesn't mean, this is important, it doesn't mean as a board or administration, you can't determine that is not appropriate and in the best interest of the district. It doesn't mean that's not rising to the level of irreparable harm and you should not work in the school setting. You have that discretion, but it is not required to be reported to Isby. It's not written, >> not in not in the school code. >> Our policy where

039we talked about egregious misconduct follows pretty much what the school code tells us. So we don't have that provision for example explicitly stated but remember for egregious misconduct we have a provision for other conduct that causes irreparable harm to the district or your reputation. >> And so should our policy speak to that? Because if it's silent >> Mhm. >> in the policy basically we can do the interpretation of the policy but in my opinion I it I think it needs to be made clear >> and that is for discussion of the board and feedback to the administration >> right >> on that point. Okay. >> Okay. >> Did you catch that one Amanda? So, Amanda's caught that question. >> Um, okay. Oh. Oh, and you know, we were talking about like being like a mandated

040reporter. >> Yes. >> Right. Does that also include board members? >> As board the board members duty as a mandated reporter is to report it to the superintendent and direct her, >> okay, >> to have it filed. If you don't want to file it yourself, you always have the right to file it yourself. We can't though. Employment rules don't govern board members, your elected officials. I don't believe, but I can double check that there's any rule that says if a board member knows about child abuse and neglect that they've learned while sitting as a board and doesn't report it, that is grounds for them being removed from the board. I don't think that's a written rule. >> Could you look into that where >> where we stand with that? >> Because I've been told that

041I'm a mandated reporter. >> That is true. >> Right. Right. I know that. But to what extent? >> Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. Um Okay. I think that's everything I wrote there. Oh, >> can I go to Mr. Riddle? And if you have another question, we'll come back. Yes, >> Mr. Riddle. >> Okay. First, I want to make sure I understand correctly. >> It was There you go. It's on. >> Okay. Okay. First, I want to be clear that the purp I believe uh Mr. Ander Brock, you stated the purpose of the meeting was um to clarify with the board and what are what the board wants as a policy for um when resignations in lie of termination should be limited. Correct. >> Correct. Because in the past year there has been some the board has

042brought up some instance instances where we have had individuals brought to us for resignation and then when the board has asked why they are resigning we found out it was in lie of termination. So we the board was not clear that that was always being done that we were not a clear that every resignation that was being brought forward to us that some of those were in lie of termination. That was one thing that [clears throat] happened in the past year >> and the board said with some of these individuals we felt that maybe we should terminate some members of the board thought we should terminate and not allow um resignation in lie of termination. Correct. >> Yes. There were different instances when you felt that that shouldn't be an option. >> Right. And one

043of the considerations that I thought why this first off this the principal makes the recommendation to the super superintendent and the superintendent makes a recommendation to us for either resignation or termination or or resignation in lie of termination. Correct? That is what the school code sets forth, but also any of your administrators could work through HR and HR is another >> significant source of supporting or weighing in on whether termination should move forward. >> Okay. So, I have several questions. If if I could just kind of briefly go through those. One of them is at this point in time is the superintendent obligated to tell the board that this a particular resignation is in lie of termination. Do we have that clear in in board policy at all? >> That is not written in board

044policy. >> Okay. I think that's something the board should consider tonight is whether we want every resignation >> that is in lie of termination >> brought to our attention >> and explain why this is being done. Yes, >> that's important in my way of thinking and I want the rest of the board to understand that. Yes. >> The second thing I want to ask is >> basically just a brief question because it's a big district with 2,000 employees. I wonder how many times in the past year an employee was offered the chance to resign um in lie of termination. >> Can I give some context? >> Yes, please. And I don't have those the data. >> I'm not asking you to it tonight. >> No, no, we can get you that. I just want I

045just wanted to say so I just want to give some context. This is not a new way that we've been handling this. This has been a way that this district has been handling this prior to my arrival. Am I correct, Mr. Figareroa? >> Yes. So the reason we're having the discussion tonight is because I'm looking for the right word because there has been some discussion and certain board members feel it should be handled this way and or and others may feel it should be handled this way. The administration is looking for direction from the board on how you guys how you all would like to move forward. So if the ask is we would like to know anytime there's a resignation in lie of termination we like to know that during close session we can

046we can prepare that for you. No problem. The second piece and I'm going to can let you go let you finish. The other piece to this is the question has to be answered. Do we keep allowing people employees to resign in lie of termination at all times or is there some things you're going to hold firm on on saying no on hypothetically sexual abuse, sexual misconduct? We are not accepting your resignation. We are going for termination. And that's the direction we're looking for here, for you all to set a new standard where you all are in agreement so that we have clarity on how to perform our job at the best we can for you all. That's what we're looking here for. >> Right. And and from my understanding of briefly reading the law, the

047faith law that came into effect says that we cannot allow um staff members to resign in lie of termination when there has been sexual abuse to a child to a student. And and of course legal has to clarify that. But but as I looked at the law, it looks like that is the uh what it it came into effect and and it requires that um that be reported to Isbian that we don't pass those people on to another district, right? >> If they have been found guilty of sexual misconduct with a student >> that we don't we're hands are now tied because of that law. >> Um so that's that's one question. You don't have to answer all these questions tonight. I'm just bringing these forward. I also know a consideration or at least I

048presume a consideration about allowing individuals to resign in lie of termination. And I'm not just talking about the sexual abuse with the faith law. >> One of the considerations is how much is going to cost the district if this person sues us and is it worth, you know, now we're not talking about the faith law. We're just talking about this individual. We've we could terminate them, but we're going to offer them the chance to resign. Do we take into consideration the financial liability here? And is there a threshold that this district uses to say well this could cost us for instance $100,000 in legal fees just as we would in workman's comp cases we negotiate and in this sense you kind of negotiate with the individual and basically allow them do you want to resign

049in lie of termination I'd like to know what our threshold is in the district and what I if that is a consideration that we make now I understand the district is wanting to use this recommendation agious misconduct Correct. And when I look at that, I see theft over $300. >> No, they don't want to use that one. >> Oh, they're not using that one. >> It It is It is egregious misconduct that also aligns with what must be reported. >> That's the one before that. So, that's irreparable conduct or performance deficiencies or actions which are injurious to the health or person of students in the classroom or the school. >> Is that am I on the right? Absolutely. Yes, that's what I'm looking at. >> No, not looking at school code teacher dismissals. They're looking

050at school code mandates >> and then we're different. >> Oh, there's three. Okay, it's this one. Pending criminal charge or conviction. That one. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Okay. I'm looking at the right one. That's what you want to use. That one. I want to be clear on that. >> Okay. Pending criminal charge. I I guess I have a question on that because I I've thought we've had a pending criminal charge we can't actually terminate because we could be sued if they were found not guilty. A conviction yes but a pending criminal charge >> I know in the past we have held off termination because the charge >> and we asked why are we holding off because there's a serious pending criminal charge. Why are we holding off termination? the board felt we should terminate

051and we were told not to terminate because >> yes, >> this person could be found not guilty and then we'd be sued. >> So I I'm not giving a piece. I have two things I want to comment on, Miss Lensing, before you weigh in. >> The law states explicitly that you can either terminate or accept a resignation of an employee who's been engaged in sexual misconduct under law. So though they don't say you must terminate and that you can't take a resignation, that is a separate question from whether or not to refer them to ISBY. It also says if they engage in that behavior and resign or are end up terminated, then you must report them to us, but they can do either under the law. So that's that point. That's so under faith law

052you're saying they do not we don't have to terminate and they don't have to resign >> but we have to report >> but you if they are if they resign so if I I if uh Mr. Figuroa went to an employee and said, "We have an allegation that you engaged in this misconduct. This could be grooming. We're going to open an investigation. You're going to be on um admin leave pending investigation." And two days later, we get their resignation. You could decide to accept that resignation as the board and then that would trigger them being reported to Isby >> Okay. All right. And whether we finish the investigation or not, that goes to Isby. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. That's that. Your second point about pending criminal charges >> there. It the law used to

053set it up in the case law decades ago that if you take action on a pending charge, you might get run into trouble on that. Um, so we let people sit on admin leave. We kept paying them for long periods of time because the criminal law can move slowly, especially if there's not a settlement. It did change to specifically allow for us to dismiss them pending a criminal charge. But if they're not convicted, it also says you have to give them all the back pay. So that's a compromise. >> Oh, okay. >> You do. Then the only other new law that's out there and this goes to the process. It doesn't go to whether or not is you have to be careful when you're acting on arrests and uh information of arrests and convictions to

054ensure that you're not acting on any kind of potential discriminatory manner under the Illinois Human Rights Act. and they set up there is language that allows you aren't discriminating if you dismiss because a law says you must >> like the reasons we have here for those various criminal charges. And then it says if there's a conviction that you think is directly related to their duties, you have to think about that and that might warrant dismissing or not hiring. Either one is another option. So there has been some changes to the law that have tried to kind of bridge that gap and create a more equitable situation for both sides. >> Okay. When I look at this, what you're recommending right now, the is this under that section is the superintendent uh notification required. That's where

055we're we're recommending um termination in lie of resignation. In other words, um I I thought in the past um lying was considered, you know, egregious. If there's an investigation and that we would want to the administration would want to uh terminate for for an individual when when an investigation is going on and they are deliberately caught lying to us, trying to to foy or uh you know because then we can't trust our employees after that. you know, if they start lying about what and we're just investigating matters that are serious, is that no longer considered a reason to terminate in our district? >> Absolutely. We would still go for termination. The difference there is that we would allow them to resign. If if they said, okay, we're we're going to go for termination. And the

056employee said, our recommendation would be, well, can I resign? We would allow them to resign in those cases because that's not a reportable offense to Isby. So, we're not changing how we handle that. Right. >> Right. What we're talking about here is >> the discussion around when does the board not want to accept the resignation and want to move forward with termination. >> Okay. >> And I um I Miss Lensine had her hand up for a minute. So, I just want to recognize that. >> Sure. >> Well, well, I'm I'm I'm back to that. I just I'm not real clear on the those two points here. And I felt that the board when we have we have discussed this a little bit you know the past year when this if there was sexual misconduct with

057adults and Miss Hannah was bringing that up very serious matter um and that would be uh not be one of these instances where we could still I guess >> are you saying that too that is >> that's our decision That's your decision. If you want to give us that direction to add that to the list, you can do that as a board >> to put to add >> to add that. >> Yes. >> If there's sexual misconduct between adults, >> we gave you a snippet of it. You could add more. You could take less. That's why we're having the workshop for you all to give us direction. Okay? We're giving recommendations that whatever Isbby says we have to report. You should not all take a a letter I mean the resignation from them. You should

058say no we're moving forward a termination. Okay. Because part of this for the board and I think it's important because of the workshop is you want to be good neighbors and good stewards to other children in surrounding communities. And this is where this is coming from. It's not it's it's for walking, but you want to make sure that all students are safe in the state of Illinois or in any other state and that's where this came from. This the foundation of this. >> Okay. >> And I guess adding then I I I guess I like that uh going down a few to the egregious misconduct. There's a few of those that are are very serious and I don't I'd like the other board members to consider for instance that very last one where it said

059>> other conduct for which there's evidence of irreparable harm to the district or irreparable damages to the reputation of the employee. Since we're talking about people who are highly respected in our district, you know, our administrators, our teachers, um, individuals who work for the school district, and they if they do something that there's conduct there that's irreparably harming the district or damaging the reputation of our district or the employee, it seems to me that's very serious conduct. I wouldn't as a personally I don't I termination would be the thing I would think the board would want, but I don't know. We have to decide if we want that written into the policy is what you're saying added to >> what is the direction to the board in ter or to the administration in terms of

060what they bring forward to the board >> in terms of how they um engage in communication with the employees about the particular fact scenario >> right >> and and all of this as as I'm sure you all know but I'm just going to reiterate it so everybody is clear this is just general guidance >> all cases will be made on a case-bycase basis but we want to treat similarly situated people in a comparable manner >> whether to allow whether to say upfront Mr. Figuroa if these situations come up when you are talking to that employee and termination is the recommendation if they ask you can I resign in lie of termination you need to tell them this is one of those things that the board has directed the administration needs to bring termination forward to

061the board not resignation >> okay I see what you're saying >> that that's kind of how it would play out >> and the board practically the board can what you're saying is the board can always go with the recommendation of the administration is you know based on these policies we're going to let this person resign in lie of termination but the board has the authority to change that because you the administration presents what the rationale was and then the board can if they feel for instance the reputation of the district has been irrepably damaged or that individual teacher or administrator has damaged their reputation such that the board doesn't think they can continue in the district or even should work at another district. we could change that and terminate instead of >> so if we

062brought that forward to you as a resignation and you said no we aren't going to consider it as a resignation please bring it back as termination you could do that >> okay >> that's within your right >> right and if I may say something what what the board is telling us so far is that there will be certain offenses >> that human resources or the supervising administrator will not even discuss a resignation. I see >> or if a resignation is being offered, we will immediately reject it. Right >> now there are other cases where we might have that conversation. My my opinion is and we have been doing that already is that we will uh try to bring those cases that are very severe to the attention of the board and seek guidance of how

063the board want us to proceed. If those cases are not one of the cases that you're identified or that the school code is identifying as that we should go and terminate immediately. I have one final question then I'm going to let the rest of the board talk and that is if the board is inconsistent in its uh determination for instance the district uh let certain individuals resign in lie of termination and we have it as our policy and we're following that along but then with certain individuals we change and and change that that's could cause a problem with the individual that was not allowed to resign correct because then they could sue and say >> this is this is always the lawyer's favorite answer. It it depends. Every case is going to be factsp specific.

064>> You will have a problem if there is a perception that you are engaging in discrimination and unfair conduct and behavior. >> When your employees believe that, that is when we start to get more litigation, more administrative complaints, etc. >> Thank you. >> Consistency is the best as much as possible. Yes. And you we have to also remember that every case has many variables attached to it. So we have to look at these on a casebycase basis. But there's some of them where you can say sexual misconduct. We're not dealing with that. We're going for termination. Right? However, there may be another case where you say, well, we would take a resignation for that. But when we when we discuss the case, the board may feel, you know what, on this case, I'm not seeing

065it this way. I feel it f it falls here. That's still your right. >> That's what I'm trying to say. So, you're not locked in. What we need to get locked in is is there going to be certain things that we say we're not accepting a resignation on these A, B, and C. That's what we're looking for. >> Thank you, Superintendent. >> Um, okay. I just want to first start by thanking the administration. Thank you, superintendent, for getting this meeting together. I think this has been brewing for a while. So, I'm glad we could nail this down. I am very much a safety first person and there have been scenarios that have come to the board where it's very frustrating where we are accepting resignation in lie of termination. So, I think to their point

066and I also wrote down consistency. I think the point is to say to the points already made, if we have general basic baseline parameters of if they do this, this, this, if they do one of these things in these categories, it's an automatic termination. So, it lessens the they make a recommendation and we override it because the the goal is for us to be on the same page. The goal is for you to present something and our thinking is mostly in alignment. Are we going to agree on everything? No. But to Miss Vanderbrook's point, we look at those scenarios and she is very good at saying, well, we want to make sure that we are thinking of these things because it could come across a certain way. So, with the safety first, um, I am

067in agreement that with Miss Hannah and Mr. a riddle that this does not include staff protections and that's a concern to me. >> It should be our students should be safe, our [snorts] staff should be safe and our families should be safe. We should not have parents going into our schools interacting with administrators, teachers and get verbally abused or discriminated against or what have you treated poorly and then for the teacher to continue in that role. I think for me, if it's a if you are causing an unsafe present in our district, you should not be here. That goes for physical safety. That goes for emotional safety. And we can get into the nitty-gritty if we need to. I think personality conflicts, that's different, right? I think if you're in a department and you have

068a different perspective than your department head, you shouldn't get fired for that. I understand there's language um that we have for insubordination, etc., and it could be seen a certain way. If it shakes out that they're not a good fit for the district and they were still a safe individual to the school, it's just a disagreement of opinion. >> Let it let them let them resign. If you don't like that I'm a direct talking person or that I'm not Please, thank you. Yes. No, we're not we're not firing someone for that. Um there are some aspects in here that I still have additional questions on because I know the main point is to um identify resignation in lie of termination and where we limit that. Um there's just some aspects where it just creates more

069questions. Um, and if it needs to be a different meeting, that's completely fine. I'm just going through some of my notes. So, looking at the school mandate slide, right, we have some um we have the bullet point around employment prohibited when and it's talking about the qualifications for the license, etc. Like we find out on probationary basis, we need to move them or they're not a good fit, we need to fully terminate. Okay. Are we applying this to international teachers? because there have been instances where someone is qualified for middle school or high school but are in elementary schools. I don't need a direct answer but these are the questions that I want us to to be thinking about when we're we're looking at those. So there needs to be a process in place for

070that when we are looking at the isby superintendent notification required if we just stick with this list. I don't like passing the buck. I don't like passing the lemons. If you've seen Waiting for Superman, I agree fullheartedly with the superintendent that we not only have a duty primarily to our students, but to future students that this adult is going to interact with. So, if they are unsafe, we should terminate. And that's a clear line on their record. And we don't do it just because we don't like you. It's you have committed something serious. So when it comes to the intentional act of childhood abuse or neglect, who makes that determination? Is it solely DCFS because if it's solely DCFS, I have personal experience where there are big concerns with that department. It's not fully employ

071like they're not fully staffed. They're overworked. They're not following their cases within the required amount of time. So that's I would like some clarification on that. So on on that one, >> yeah, >> I think we have two or three different things to think about. >> Okay. >> The rule is if you as an employer have reasonable cause to believe that an employee resigned or following investigation, we found that the employee engaged in intentional abuse or neglect. That triggers the reporting obligation. If if we accuse them and they just leave and we never investigate, then it's a presumption. It's up to Isby to decide if they did it. More likely than not, Isby is going to wait to see what DCFS does. Remember, anybody accused of being a perpetrator can appeal that decision, but if

072they don't, it's going to stand. So you would have to establish factually it's intentional abuse and neglect and there was the linkage to resign or dismiss. When they absolutely can't be hired is when we know a juvenile court heard the case, had the hearings. They don't call them trials in juvenile court. They're adjudications. The child is adjudicated, abused, and neglected. And if the perpetrator was an employee or was looking to work for us and we knew that, then we can't hire them and we could immediately move for their dismissal. And because that is dismissal by law, more often than not, you will get a resignation offered because they know under law they can't work for us. >> I I'm going to add something and you may have said it and I missed it. However, anytime

073hypothetically there's uh a teach hypothetically a teacher hit a student in the face. Hypothetically, DCFS is contacted a report. We're mandated reporters. We have to file a report. However, we have our own internal investigation. And so, that is a piece of it, but it's not all of it. our investigation you know interviewing of the all the students in the classroom interviewing of the principal so that DCFS report in many not in many cases I don't want in some cases DCFS will come back and be like it's unfounded and you have 30 students that say this happened so we don't go by DCFS right it's a piece of it it's not all of it gives some context it's a variable it's not the full situation so what would be the full investig full situation would be

074the internal investigation that takes place and the facts that come out of it. Do you want >> I want to jump in there. Um and I think this comes back to consistency because there has been an example in the district and I'm not going to name names or specifics but I am aware of a situation where it came back unfounded. Students other than the victim reported what happened. It was documented with HR. There was a follow-up meeting and then it was denied by the perpetrator and they continued to carry their job here. So, there was lying and there was still um physical abuse in the classroom and it continued. So, it happened and we cannot tell me that it didn't happen, but my concern is consistency. So as we're looking at this, I want to

075make sure that we're clear on what that consistency looks like. >> That's fair. >> HR will never agree to any scenario where a teacher or any other other adult in the district have engaged in physical abuse or altercation with students and we will agree HR to that individual to continue. So, and going back to the statement that that the superintendent was making, we don't follow HR in order to dictate our opinion in a case or make a recommendation to the administration. >> You mean follow DCFS? >> No, we we DCFS findings or investigation might add to the administration in that area. But in many cases not that it's just unfounded in many cases is that they won't even take the case >> after the referral have been made and and and sometime I have hear

076some people defending but DCFS didn't took the case and I said we work independently they have their set of rules and their goals what they're trying to achieve but the district have policies and practices and we also have that same interest. So we have different uh operations in that area although we benefit and there have been cases where DCFS have made a recommendation and have make founded and we have obviously incorporated that in the recommendation of the uh administration. >> Okay. I'm going to table that because that needs to be fleshed out but that can happen at a different time. um for investigations like in the situation you had previously given where 2 days in they want to go ahead and resign. Um I don't know what it looks like for us to finish the

077investigation and keep them on a leave of some sort. So it depends and again we have if it is something that the employee is going to resign and then they leave the vicinity and we have no ability to get information from them. You know we either have to conclude the investigation based on the information we have and they have elected to wave their opportunity to weigh in and you could proceed through that. You're basically acting in abstentia, right? you're you're convicting in extensia if you were in a court. Um you're making that decision that way. Um there may be reasons why and we've I've had these conversations where I've said, you know, you could resign, but you should keep in mind this involves sexual misconduct. And if you ever try to get employed in another

078school setting in Illinois and some other states that have this rule, we would have to report to them that you resigned after an allegation of sexual misconduct and there was no finding. >> Can I clarify that that's against students though? That's not against staff. >> That is true. So that's it's it's a comparable conversation, >> but [clears throat] at the end of the day, it's up to the employee to decide what what action they want to take, whether they want to resign and proceed that to present that, whether you want to accept it. If you didn't accept it, if they're not a teacher, are you going you can't force them to continue to work for you. you then it would move to job abandonment and then they'd say but I resigned how can you say

079I abandoned my job so you have there just some issues there lots of times and most employers when you're looking at resignation in lie of termination you're getting um clarity and expectations and you're getting efficiency in closing in employment matter >> yeah I just for me personally board. It it is concerning when it's a safety related investigation and then if they're not against a student and we accept the resignation again, we're passing the lemons and allowing them to potentially reperpetrate in a different district against adults. So that's where I have concerns. I hear you, Mr. Riddle, on the the cost of what termination and litigation would be. For me, I think that allows perpetrators to continue to do what they want. Well, it's like it's going to cost too much for them to come after

080me, so I'm going to do what I want to do. So, I have some hesitancy going along with that because that could just be a cover that they they go under. >> I was asking not I'm not saying we should do that. I was just asking was that a consideration that the district had and was there a threshold where on you know they felt it was to the district's benefit to take the resignation instead of pursue a termination. >> Yeah. it not necessarily a sexual anything to do with sexual just I wanted to know what cases if that's a consideration our district uses >> I just I'm wondering everything put in >> we What we put in policy, >> okay, is what the direction >> that the administration. >> Sorry to jump on that. I

081thought after this conversation we would expect it to come through in policy or is that my misunderstanding and jumping to all depend on where you land. >> Got it. >> Whether it comes in policy, whether it how we would bring that forward. >> Got it. Um I do just want to say one other thing and this is an example of that. One thing you could do which is a middle ground between resign or terminate is you could give a direction that you need on the personnel action schedule to say when it is a resignation in lie of termination. Then everybody will know and it will be very transparent. >> I like transparency. So I love that. Um I think because there's under the school code teacher dismissals in generally the last bullet is whenever in

082its opinion the interest of the schools require it. Um I it happens in our schools and it's unfortunate to say this but we do have some teachers that do not love our kids. We have some teachers that look at a second grade boy and say you're not cut out for college. You're going to the military. So, I don't necessarily think that that um should be a termination. Um but I don't know if we're following that aspect of the school code when parents are raising these concerns of how teachers are treating their students. Um the last point I'll make, Miss Hannah, and then I'll I'll be quiet for a while. Um under that same one for the egregious conduct where it says irrediable conduct or performance deficiencies. So, can you provide some can you clarify and

083provide some examples and how you come to that determination? And then I do have one followup, but I'll hold it after. I think your easiest example is through the evaluation process. You've done remediation plans. You've done professional development plans. You've done your appropriate evaluations. you may be into tenure at this point and not a probationary teacher. And it so it's really going to play out probably more with that because if you're probationary and you're not meeting performance expectations, there's likely to be evaluations that support that efforts to bring their skills up to speed and then a recommendation at the end of the year for non-renewal because they're still probationary. But on the tenure end, you're going to have those professional development plans. And we still have the same problem in the same areas. And we

084have the provision in the school code that says if you are unsatisfactory as a tenur teacher, you do your 90-day remediation plan and you're still unsatisfactory or needs improvement, then you must be presented for termination to the board. So that's where I think that is most likely to arise. But I always leave the door open for you never know what a fact pattern might bring forward. >> Okay. >> So, >> do you want to ask a question? >> I do. I just because we're >> Is it on? >> It keeps dying. >> Do you want this one? >> It's recharging. >> Hello. Hello. Hello. Okay. Um, going back to um having to report sexual misconduct with um with a staff to a student. Okay. And I thought, and this was before, okay, before uh you

085became general counsel, I thought that there that a law had uh been um been put in place um covering staff going to another district. And in other words, if we did not terminate and that that staff went to another district did the same thing because we didn't um both terminate andor report that staff that our district has a liability on that. >> So, the facts are going to control as always. We have tort immunity protections as a general rule for decisions that are made in your official capacity. And ultimately, liability would likely only apply. We might be in the lawsuit, but we would likely only be liable if we could show deliberate indifference in willful conduct in failing to report. And and before I got on, some of the changes in the rules that I've

086put forward here about face law and the willful or negligent failure to report, those weren't in place historically. They're relatively new, >> right? I know. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. And then going back to teacher resignations the generally during school term and summer. >> Mhm. >> I got a question. Um okay just say we get a um a teacher that uh wants to resign, right? But because it is within those B for simplification those uh restricted times so to speak, right? >> And we say no, you can't resign. That scares me because if someone doesn't want to be somewhere, it It's I I'm afraid that the teacher would be hostile to the students because they want to leave. They don't want to be here. But we're saying no, you can't leave. >> So I >> because

087of the the restrictions. So that that that's scary to me. >> I agree with you, Miss Hannah. Um, I'm just going to go back and so now I'm going to be a teacher in the workshop. So, just to finish that one off, um, the board had a discussion on that and it was a consensus of the board that we were going to hold license if teachers did not give us the right amount of notice of leaving. >> As a result, HR has already sent out notification to our teachers that we would be starting that in January. So, I believe the board has solved for that problem and has made a decision. So, now here is the question that's on the table because I'm going to try to bring us in. So, here's the question and

088bear with me. As a board, do you feel there are certain infractions that are terminable offenses you do not want to accept the resignation for versus termination? So can I get a consensus on that? >> It's so yes. So we the board as a board we're saying there's some offenses we are not going to accept your resignation. We are going for termination. >> Okay. >> What offense? >> Now I'm going Thank you. Miss H Miss Hanny. Come sit over here by me. We on the same page. >> If that is a yes. Now I have Miss Malooi. Oh sorry. Miss Howlet, I didn't see behind you. I have Miss Howlet behind me. What are those infractions that you will not accept a resignation in lie of termination? >> Okay. So, Miss Ramirez said anything that

089needs to be reported to Isby. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. So, do we have consensus? Can we have consensus on Miss Ramirez's point? >> Yes. Anything that has to be reported to Isby, we will not accept a resa I mean a resignation in lie of termination. Okay, number one. Number two, anything else you want to put on the table right now? We could just throw it in the parking lot and have some discussion. >> Um um physical fighting among staff. Okay. >> Within the school district. >> Okay. So, can I'm just I'm going to repeat what I'm hearing and you can tell me if I'm on the mark or off. So, you're saying um altercations from staff member to staff member, altercations from staff member to student, altercations from staff member to stakeholder, and it means

090parents. Do we all agree with that? I I put the state I put the parents in there and I went back to Miss Lensine because I'm adding what everybody's been saying at the table. So if you're not okay with that, just say no, Miss Hannah. But it's everyone. >> I need a clarification. Mrs. Hannah statement was physical fighting. Miss Lensing earlier raised a more nebulous concept of of physical or emotional safety. >> Kathy, can you give me one minute? We're going to get there. >> Okay. >> Because we can't take it all. It's going to confuse them. Let's go. >> You You switched it though to altercation. So, are we still talking about I'm talking physical altercation. I'm on the physical. I'm on the physical. So what I'm hearing and you could say the as

091a board you can say I like one and two I'm not crazy about three right so we'll go through number one are do we agree what altercation of a staff member with another staff member we would not accept the resignation >> well as as the aggressor right like if you are the aggressor because if our staff is defending themsel they shouldn't get terminated for it so when you are the aggressor in a physical altercation grounds for termination >> while on Okay. So, if you are the aggressor on school property, do we >> or at a school event, do we agree that we will not accept a resignation in lie of termination? Can I get a consensus on that? >> This is, you know, concession that the someone defending themselves, you know, that's not, you know,

092>> we said the aggressor. >> Yes, the aggressor. Okay. the aggressor. >> Do we have consensus on that? >> So, so what we're stating now is that if there's an altercation from a physical Thank you. a physical altercation from staff member the aggressor, we will not accept a resignation in lie of termination. >> Are we adding on school property or at a school event? We could do we could do both. >> But right you didn't add a location to it. So under what you had said it could be you guys could be at Jewel and get into >> Got it. So yeah. >> That's fair. That's fair. So on school ground or at a school event? >> Absolutely right. >> Okay. So are we in agreement with that? >> Yes. >> Now that was staff

093on staff. >> Staff on staff. the aggressor on school property school event. >> I thought it was staff on staff, staff on stakeholder. >> Well, we're going with the staff on staff then we're taking the second one. Okay, got it. >> So, do we agree with the staff on staff? >> Yes. >> Okay, you got that. Second part of this is do we agree that if a staff the aggressor has an physical altercation with the student on school grounds or at a school event we would not accept resignation in lie of termination. >> That's the discussion you all need to have. That is >> if they are the aggressor. >> If the staff is the aggressor, I'm 100% 10 toes down. Yes. >> Right. Yes. But not defending themselves. >> Not defending. >> Okay. Because

094you know, it has to be spelled out, >> right? We're going to spell it out, but we're saying aggressor. So, we're using that word right now. We'll get more granular with that. So, can I get a a the temperature of the room? Is it a Can we go around, Mr. Riddle? Yes. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. >> And that's something you're recommending. >> What about Mr. McBride? >> No, this is you. I recommended mine. You guys are taking this. Oh, Miss McBride. I'm sorry. Look, you ain't no statue over there, man. >> I'm so sorry, Mr. McBride. >> Mr. McBride, are you in agreement? I apologize, Mr. McBride. Thank you, Miss Hannah. Thank you. I did not do that intentionally. You know that. I so apologize. Okay. >> So, are we in all agreement?

095>> We have to define physical aggression. It's not a staff member putting their arm around. >> No, not a CPI hold. None of that. We're we're going to >> if I come up and that's right. That's right. >> Clarify that. >> That's right. >> Perfect. >> Because you're going to see this. So, we'll we'll we're taking notes. The third part of this now is I use stakeholder, but we said parents, right? I agree. So if we have a staff member have a physical altercation with a stakeholder on school property or a school event. Do we agree that that's a termination versus resignation in lie of termination? >> That includes board members. >> Thank you. >> Aggression against the board member. >> Well, we're a stakehold. But you know what? I you know what's your discussion

096to me is so >> it's so generic >> and there's been there's been those instances with more parents than with when somebody say snake that's the the businessman down the street or the organiz they that's kind of few and far between. So I would like to see it specify parents. >> I'm fine if we do parents and other stakeholders if you want that clarification, but we have community partnerships all around. And I would hate for someone from Walkagan to college to get clocked because the staff members having a bad day and they're the aggressor, right? So I understand it's few and far between. It's less likely to happen. But should it happen, we hope none of this ever happens, >> but we have more instances with parents >> and not sure. So I'm fine with

097making it parents and other stakeholders. >> If so, if we want to make sure that is emboldened, that's totally fine, but I don't want to cut out anybody else from that pie. >> Right. But yeah. So, >> yeah, whatever. Just >> So, can I get a consensus from the board? >> Can I get a consensus from the board? We're looking at Mr. McBride first. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Kathy, should we go parents and guardians? Not all of our primary students. >> We define parents to include legal guardians in your policies. >> Right. >> Thank you. Okay. Now, there was another one around um emotional health and I'm going to let you term those three ways. Is that okay? Because you brought that in. Is that all right? So, we could get >> I don't

098want to mess up that. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> So, for if you are emotionally abusive, right? So when you go into your workplace and someone doesn't like you because you're a practicing Christian and they are constantly on top of you like God's not real this that and they're constantly going after you and just being disrespectful, excluding you from meetings, excluding you from lunches, excluding you from events because of that. Yes, that's discrimination. But the language on top of that, if it doesn't necessarily rise to a legal definition of discrimination, but you feel unsafe going into the workplace, or if someone uses a racial slur, or if someone just doesn't like your personality and they are moving in a way that is causing you emot, it's emotional abuse. I don't think you should be in

099our district. I I agree and I on that note I'm thinking more in terms of children >> what the three categories >> in the children in terms of the emotional harm I I'm not real certain um I know that in the um in the um child what What is it, Kathy? The child the the uh child act >> child Yeah. Abused and neglected child reporting act. >> Yeah. In in there they talk about that emotional stuff in there um in that law and that act. Mhm. >> I have always kind of disagreed with that because kids are going to be emotional. >> Oo. Okay, let's back it up. >> Uh-uh. Kids are going to be emotional by nature in terms of an adult causing emotion um a child to be emotionally um abused or something

100like that. I I know what I'm saying. Maybe I'm not articulating it, but um that that's that that's kind of that's something that needs to be discussed and kind of um you know narrowed down. >> We can pull up a more legal definition of what constitutes emotional abuse and children I'm not going to say are more more emotional. I feel they have less regulation over their emotions, right? And so if we have a teacher that is standing in a classroom like, "You're not going to be anything. Why are you even trying?" >> Oh, yeah. >> Y'all, we're I'm teaching in the ghetto >> misconduct >> as far as I'm concerned. >> And we should not let them resign. We should terminate them because that is a message to our community that we care about the

101emotional well-being of your kid in our school. >> That's bad. I understand what you're saying >> and I agree. >> Okay. >> That's so much harder to document though, >> right? That I guess that's what I'm saying. >> I would think >> I don't think I could support that as a you know just a a blanket. >> Um >> I think we need to get a more legal definition, but there have been instances where it's either I think >> normally it's longer term too. It's not just one incident. So, you know, there's a there's a range there. >> I got I got an example. >> Yeah. Oh, here. >> I got an example of that this very thing just yesterday. And I'm not going any further about it. Okay. But it's what you're talking about.

102But it is it it things can be said like the parents going to say one thing, right? And you have to be certain that the story is the the the factual story. And you know, I'm not saying that the a parent would lie, but a parent is going to um side with what the child says that took place, okay? And that's just the times that we're in when we were in school. If the teacher said it, >> you did it. >> It's not like that anymore. Yep. >> And go ahead, superintendent. >> No, this one's kind of working. >> I'm tracking with you. I want to remind the board that this is just not one incident where you said something. These are investigations that took place where we found there was egregious emotional >> abuse

103disturbance whatever. So this is not just oh I don't you you I don't you talked to me some kind of way did it didn't land right. These are formal investigations where students are being invest and our staff needs protection too. We don't need our staff to work in fear. what they need to know is what is required, what is expected, and how we're supporting them through this, right? So, it's not a got you, but it is is that's why um when I had a racial slur, if if if a racial slur slur is used, then you got to go, >> that would be an that would be a formal investigation and based off that cuz that's emotional abuse, right? Where would be where would be the stance of the board once we said yes a

104slur was used it was egregious. Would you accept a resignation or would you want the termination that >> it needs to be it needs to be narrowed down. Okay. I mean, a racial slur is a racial slur, but I think it needs to be more specific in terms of the definition or the what we're going to >> Yeah. what we're going to say happened or what we're going to charge the the the teacher, the the perpetrator or whatever it I think it needs to be specific. your kid just >> I I think we can place something in there um to accept terminations based on amuse on on on emotional abuse because one as a board um I'm hoping that um the opponent of accountability with our administration has been that once they bring something to

105that to us that there has been a long and extensive and thorough invest investigation done. I don't necessarily agree with Hannah that we have to be very very specific because we can also reserve our right not to accept that termination. >> No, I understand. So, so I think that we just need to ensure that the investigation portion is being followed according to school board and according to school policy. So therefore, when you bring it to us, we know that it's egregious and it's something that we must take absolute action on. Now, um, for us to be to put in a list of what we think is egregious means that us as a board do not trust that porn accountability of them being able to follow school code and school policy. So, I do believe that

106we can place something in there that we will not accept it because again, we always have the right to reserve not to accept that termination. So, I just believe we would be causing ourselves more work um to be able to put A B CDE E FG >> in there. >> Again, I think we're covered um because those are always points that we can discuss when we don't want to accept the termination. But then I if if it's not specified in there, it's not going to be giving the administration a direction. They're going to all they're going to come back. Well, this wasn't specified. But >> but this isn't it it you you know I just think that it's always better to be specific and then there won't be any question. I think one of the

107concerns maybe underlying um why to have it be specific is there's distrust within the district for certain cases to be investigated appropriately. I'm not saying it's valid, invalid, whatever. I'm just saying there is that distrust there. Right? So there have been situations where in my opinion it has been an interdep departmental or within a school disagreement and it escalated into an investigation. Um I think it comes back to Miss Ramirez's point of we need very thorough investigations >> to to make sure that we as we the board member given facts. I don't want your opinions. I want the facts. And when we have the facts, we can then determine our opinion of to me this reads more as a department conflict, not emotional abuse because they disagreed with you that we should be serving apples

108every day in the lunchroom. Right? That's just a silly example, but I don't want to give very specific ones. So I I think it does come down to the details that we are given. But I think to Miss Hannah's point when my hope is this will be put in policy, but when we go to do that, giving some general examples so that staff are aware and you guys don't see an influx in investigations for things that are are disagreements, right? So having some little vignettes of like this is a scenario, right? I know you want specifics, but I also don't want to hamstring us by this is emotional abuse, but we didn't think about it in the moment. That's my only concern with that. >> Yeah. >> Again, again, I think I I think the

109egregious conduct is already listed here. And I think to spell it out like you said, um, Mr. RmIrez, you know, we don't need to put ABC, you know, actions which are injurious to or endanger the health or the person of students in the classroom or school. You could list list them if you wanted. A intoxication, um you know, B, uh emotional health. I mean, you could list all those things, but I our staff is concerned about that. They we have, as you said, um I believe that we trust and they would come with an investigation. This isn't just a one-time thing. Um you know, so I don't know that we have to spell out all these things to to I think that covers it. I think but we just need to expand it because this

110again is just for students and we need it for staff and stakeholders. So I agree. >> Well, it says the classroom or the school. Oh. Oh. Health or persons. >> The classroom or school. >> In the classroom or school >> of the student. It's still students, I guess. >> Oh, my bad. I just I just want to say um so everybody is aware this conversation is really terribly helpful. We are capturing this. You will have a chance to revisit whether we captured your intent as a consensus when we come back to you with documentation. So the piece of physical harm, the policy currently being focused on student, we've got your recommendations. We need some expansion to staff there. We've done policies before. An example are our sexual harassment policies where we say examples of include

111but it's not limited to. >> Yeah. Beautiful. >> Okay, that makes more sense. I apologize for that. May I add that um you have some recent examples of as soon as the board start conveying their concerns about more transparency in those resignations items that you're considering in personal items we have started the administration have started to provide some more clarity in those so even if you miss an item there I think the good judgment of the HR department the president and the near her future will be that they will come and through the administration and the superintendent present that in close session just to get your feelings before we bring the item for formal action and be a little bit of a situation where then in the middle of that process we need to change

112that we I think that the the mechanism that we used last time was we have this these are the reason but we're moving into the area that there is a concern or a doubt which way the board might act in some cases, we will bring that ahead of time and then we will proceed in the following meeting. >> Oh, there I am. I'm going to jump in on that because I feel like um in terms of the cost if there's litigation in that process, we're also being advised on the likelihood like are we in good standing? Should they combat us? Do we have enough documentation? Do we have enough evidence to say no, we're full within our rights to have terminated this individual? So, I do like that process. Um, can I get clarification because

113it was mentioned earlier? So, are the is the staff asking to resign instead of being terminated or is HR offering that opportunity as an avenue? The the past practice was that we were asking for the resignation in lie of making a recommendation to the board of education for termination. >> Okay. >> So I I personally don't >> there are times when they will ask us to do that. >> Can will the board accept a resignation in lie of termination? So we have had both situations. >> I'm totally fine if the staff wants to ask. I feel uncomfortable offering that as an avenue because if the principal is saying we should terminate, if an administrator is saying we should terminate, I don't think our our HR representative should be going around their expertise to say no,

114let's have you resign instead. So, I don't know how the rest of the board feels about that, but for me, I've always been a little uncomfortable with >> Well, I have to disagree with you because the expertise resides in HR and legal and in consultation with the executive team of the district how the district wants to proceed. It's a recommendation from the principles. They have recommendation for termination, recommendation for hirings. Sometime I have to stop a hiring because we already review some of the issues that won't allow us to employ certain individuals. So we need to filter that. It doesn't necessarily means that we're not going to be in agreement, but we have to have a discussion at the district level through the superintendent before we come to the board and make that formal recommendation.

115>> I think there needs to be transparency or clarity around how HR is determining this should be a resignation instead of termination. Yeah, >> we hear you. >> That that to me is exactly what this discussion is giving us those guidelines. >> Yeah. >> But to the point of the principal is recommending termination. Usually what they're saying is this person no longer needs to be our employee. I don't want to speak for the principles. I don't know that they're saying to us you need to terminate versus if they wanted to resign you shouldn't do that. They're really that is an HR function. It's that is a question of how the separation takes place versus whether the recommendation is that this individual should no longer work for us. So I think that language is very important.

116we should have them use the appropriate language, right? Because if we are saying in I believe it's the school code, right, that says the principal recommends >> Yeah. to the superintendent, but recommends what? >> Yeah. >> Superintendent recommend hirings and uh and dismissals. >> Make retention recommendations. So >> different things. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I'm struggling. Should I say this or not? Usually when you struggle, you shouldn't say it. [laughter] >> Yeah. I I think previously there has been a misconception that the admin and the board, us as a group do not like to terminate and we don't. We we we would prefer not to terminate, right? So there's staff members that will use that resignation because they don't, you know, the process and don't know if they're going to, you know, support the port

117and stuff like that. So, I think as we build this out, you're correct. They're going to have clarity. They're going to have transparency. They're going to know where the board stands and they're going to know where they stand because we've outlined it more where before it was a little gray. So, I think this is going to help us. Now this is for not employee separation. That's that includes everyone. >> Yes, ma'am. Everyone. >> Okay. >> Everyone at this table, too. >> And I liked what Miss Lensing said. I think always, you know, I worked for a former employer where we got when we wanted to terminate somebody or wanted somebody out, we just wanted them out. And so sometimes we just said, you know, we're going to terminate you unless you want to resign. But

118here we have a safety issue. We're concerned, you know, about the safety of our children especially. So we don't want that person going out, some of them, and getting a job in another school if it's been a sexual misconduct or something. So I think that's always the issue. The prime issue is the safety and concern of what, you know, what this individual might do on the outside. So some individuals we need to terminate. So there's a record. Um you know and we don't when when an employer calls they're we're not going to tell them what they did. We're limited on what we can tell them. But can we tell them Kathy that there was a termination or if if we had to report it to Isby at least >> it depends. It depends. A lawyer

119depends. But but nevertheless there's always that safety issue and that should be our top priority. Safety. You keep saying that and that's what we need. >> Yeah. That's that's my guiding pillar. To your point though, even if like we can't necessarily like they call HR, oh, did they work for you? Oh, why were they, you know, stopped working for you? Perhaps they can't, but it is part of public document in our board docs and in our meetings that this individual was terminated. >> Look it up. >> Yeah. The next school like any any good hiring staff is looking at that prior district and doing a little bit of digging. Like now the internet has most of everything about you. >> So I'm going to keep I'm going to be stay in my teacher mode. So

120we've talked about physical altercations. We've talked about emotional safety. Is there anything else that you want to add to that list cuz I'm going to bring something that you feel we will not accept the resignation for? We will only take the termination. Does any other board member want to add anything to put on that list for discussion? right now. The only the only other thing I have is about our ESP dismissals. Um, and they're not necessarily currently required to report um if they witness something. >> They are mandated reporters. >> They are still mandated. >> Yes. Okay. every school employee, no matter what your position is, is a mandated reporter. But what that says, what that says is if >> I I'll use if if I'm a maintenance worker. >> Yeah. >> And I see

121a teacher hit a student >> and I go, "Boy, that's not right. I think that's abuse." And then I do nothing. I have willfully failed to report. If I So, I didn't report because I didn't know I had to report or I didn't report because I thought Mr. Riddle saw it and reported it. Well, did you check? No. That's negligent failure to report. >> And the school code says if that happens, except for teachers because teachers have some different rights under a different part of the school code, >> right? You as a board may consider that to be grounds for termination. It doesn't say you have to terminate. Terminations are always I'm going to reiterate this always case by case. This discussion is do we allow resignation in lie of termination. That resignation could come

122just after they've learned what the charge is that we're going to investigate. It could come in the middle of it. It could come when we're done. And they know a recommendation is coming for termination. We get it at all different points in time. >> So, are you going to put all of this everything that we're talking about tonight, right? and a second meeting if we have time. Um in um are you going to uh devise a policy or policies around what we have talked about today for our yes >> perusal and approval. >> We will look at again the code of conduct policy. We will look at the resignation policy. We could end up with language that that says this directs the superintendent to develop specific guidelines that incorporates these areas because that gives us

123a little more flexibility as an administration and board to respond to things that change on the ground. Exactly what it will look like we'll be working on over the next several weeks and then we will be bringing it back to the board for that change to be put in place and and then after that we roll it out with training and notification and all of that >> and you'll have multiple times to look at it give input say hey I see this but I I didn't think about this so what about this like we do with every other policy >> we've made a lot of ground today and we have a good foundation of where to start at. So, I'm going to ask one more time. Is there anything else we want to put up

124there? Because if you think of something later, Miss Hannah, or anyone else, you can say, "Oh, I I didn't think about this, but what about this?" And we'll be discussing it during when we're, you know, discussing policy. Well, it's this or it's that. So, it's not said, done. >> That failure Oops. That failure to report you know, it might be a coach, it might be one of our other staff that that has a conversation with the young person and they reveal something to them. Um, or, you know, the coach or, you know, sees something, you know, when the guy changes his shirt or whatever it is, you know, some marks on his back or whatever. I think that's a you that person with all our staff need to know, including our board members, that failure

125to report is subject to termination. I'd like to see that. I don't know if you all consent on that, but would don't you think that's pretty serious? Failure to report a suspected abuse. >> Yeah. So, I'm going to just pull because that's what I'm just going to So, Mr. Riddle's putting on the table that if an employee does not report an incident that we would go child abuse or if somebody said, you know, I'm having an inappropriate touching at home and doesn't tell anybody else. Are we in agreement that for that type of case we would go for termination versus if through a formal investigation it was found that this employee had knowledge of it didn't tell you you know we got to go through the formal investigation so I don't want to just go

126straight to the point what does the board agree that if the failure to report we will not accept resignation we would go straight for termination that's what you're saying did I capture that correctly Yes. >> My only caveat is that we as a district, if we're going to add that in, need to make sure that that type of training is done before the school year starts. So, I don't know if like HR needs to connect whoever's in charge of trainings to make sure that these safety based trainings, whether it's um sexual harassment, whether it's bloodborne pathogens, whether it's faith law, all of the ones that impact safety for themselves and for others, that needs to happen before they interact with students. because if it's not, it's hard to hold someone accountable if we're not doing

127our due diligence to ensure that they are informed. And I'm glad to report that since I was a teacher, okay, and that's years ago, the district, the schools, every year at the start of the school year, that's one of the items that the principles in their first meeting with their staff discuss that continue when I was a principal and is my belief that that still is ongoing. >> I I also I want to manage expectations. So there are we cannot require any staff to take trainings when they're not on the clock. >> Oh yeah. >> Right. So we have to remember that once they come back they have a few days without students. So at times those trainings are not done. It's it's impossible. They're setting up rooms or but they have a window to

128get them done with deadlines from the district. So you said before they see children that may not be feasible here because of the timeline of when they come back versus when students are sitting in front of them. However, there is an understanding that you have to take mandated reporting training. Um give me one. >> Yes. So we're all taking those trainings and then there's a due date. Now I'm going to go to last year. we were monitoring the training and for staff who didn't take trainings there would be reminders and then progressive discipline if it didn't happen right and so Mr. Molson is in charge of that of looking at that list to ensure that everybody has taken the training or if not we're escalating on the levels. So hypothetically I worked in your district

129I knew I was supposed to take it. It's January I still haven't taken it. There should be communication to me that why have you not taken this training and accountability for me on that part. So, just so you know, it may not be before students come in, but there is a requirement to take it within a window. >> Are staff notified when they're hired that they're mandated reporters? >> Absolutely. And they need to sign a document acknowledging that they receive board policies and what their obligations are as mandated reported. Every staff member. >> So, that covers everybody. >> Absolutely. No exception, sir. >> Okay. And I got one last question and it uh Mr. Riddle provoked the question in terms of our coaches. Okay. Our coaches are kind of on a different level in terms

130of teachers, >> right? But what I'm saying is that coaches can be rough. But but and Mr. McBride, please help me with this. Coaches can be rough, but it's not um it it's more in like like more more training type stuff. Okay. And you know, we people may hear the coaches being harsh or you know, um uh uh rough talking with students. So I I hope >> that we don't get that mixed up with what was being said about emotional abuse. because that's something totally different. >> I'm going to disagree. >> Well, because here's the here's the thing, and it's it's come out and like we can look at not in our district. I know there have been some concerns within our district, but let's look at how some Texas coaches have interacted with their

131high school students. They Yes, you want to encourage these kids. You want to push them, but in no way should you demean them or emotionally abuse them. you shouldn't be saying move your fat A across that field. Well, I understand, but there are instances where that has happened recently in our district. And so, while yes, we want our coaches to like push our kids, there is that line. So, I think perhaps that's another conversation we can get into the weeds on. But I I think coaches should definitely be made aware of what emotional abuse will look like. >> So all of that training takes place. I'm going to ask because we're kind of getting circular in our conversation if we can have Miss Mar Ramirez your comment and I know the superintendent had one more

132thing you wanted to raise. Great >> and then maybe we can bring tonight to a close. >> Perfect. Give me go ahead. Did you have >> So the only thing that I have to say is regarding I'm I'm glad that we have the trainings. I know as a former employee I've experienced that when we have to do our trainings. I know there's a timeline. I've been the employee that has gotten the warning emails of finishing them. So I know that we do get them right. But here's where organizational efficiency and our goal to organizational excellence makes a big point of what goes into board policy. Now, we have to utilize those reports that you're saying, right? We can't wait till January to see them. Absolutely. We have to review them monthly. We have to review

133them 30 day. You know, there has to be something that says 30 days of employment. We have to make sure that they have them because here is the problem that if we don't do our SOPs, if we don't follow our systems of operation, if we don't put those rules of organizational, you know, >> in place, then whatever we discuss here as a board becomes null and void. If we are not running those reports, if we're not reviewing them, if we're not using them as tools of management and discipline and all of that, and then everything just comes into a hole that we're spending this money for these um software and these trainings and these reports, but then we're not using them to create the organizational excellence that we need to function as an organization. Because

134whether we like to see it or not, there are two aspects of school. There is the social aspect, then there's the business aspect. We are in the business of education. And we need to run it in some organizational efficient way. So if we're not going to look at these reports on training, then what are we spending the money on when it comes to this software? So, as a board, we also have to be hearing that yes, we're doing these trainings and we have a 98% success rate 30 days going in. All right? Or we have to come to this person that refuses to do these the these trainings. There are people who just think they are a waste of time. There are people who just hit that start, hit that next, hit that next, hit

135that next, and whether or not they got a passing grade or not, it doesn't matter. Those reports are made there for us to find those individuals. And if we don't start utilizing all those systems that we have in place, what we discuss here today has been a waste of time. And this is where the board holds the administration accountable. That's the accountability that you put on us. And you're absolutely right because previously we were not using like that. Mr. Molton has been charged with that since last the previous school year. We took a more granular approach on that and that is the consistent basis of it now that where we're looking at it and we're utilizing either support progressive discipline wherever that falls. I I have two questions and I'm going to try to get

136you out of here within the next 10 minutes. Do I have consensus on what Mr. Riddle has put on the table because we did not take a consensus. Yeah. The failure to report Okay. And the last question I have and then we're going to the last question is our stance is if you lie during a formal investigation, we go for termination. We are not moving from that. My question to the board is, do you want to take those on a case-toase basis or do you want to say we will only accept termination based off resignation? If you want me to give you my opinion, I believe you need to take them on a case-toase basis and you do get to hear the case. You get to look at it. Or the opposite is you can

137say after formal investigation there had if they're found to be lying during the formal investigation we are going for termination. We will not accept your resignation. Where does the board stand on that? I I think the case by basis makes the most sense. The reason I say that is because there there are concerns of staff of, you know, retaliation of if I tell the truth, even if it's a small thing, it's something that I can be fired for where if my, you know, neighboring teacher does the exact same thing and handles it in the exact same way, they're not going to. So, I I think the case-byase basis makes the most sense. I think it is on the administration to make it abundantly clear that we want you to be honest so that we can

138help the situation. And it's not I want you to be honest and incriminate yourself and admit to this thing that you did so that we can fire you. Um there's there's a lot of trust rebuilding that needs to happen and so until we have that as a a stable basis I think case by case makes the most sense. >> That's fair. >> I I agree with that because there are different levels of severity of mistruths or lies and some are going to be very severe violations and some are not going to be. >> So I think it really needs to be taken on a case- by case basis. I I agree with that as long as we understand that the investigation is a tool for us to find the truth and sometime the truth is

139correctly is that that individual violated certain board policies that require us to act in a disciplinary way. So if we water down the tool then this is will be open season for staff members to come and lie under investigation for us then to be able to find the truth. We're searching for the truth. >> We're really not watering down the tool but we're just giving ourselves the opportunity to do a case by case determination. >> I agree. >> Yeah. I I and that's how I perceived it. So, what I'm hearing from the board, and I do agree, it's not watering down the tool. We're going to still have the formal investigations. We're still if we if we catch a lie, we will be going for termination. We may accept the resignation, but we will decide

140that on a case-toase basis. Do I have consensus for that? >> Wait, first, let me Okay, go ahead, Miss Hannah. Go ahead. I'm going to consensus. >> Okay, go ahead. [clears throat] [laughter] >> Well, that's how my brain works. But um okay and investigations makes people nervous, makes people sometimes misspeak. It may not be intentionally lying. People are afraid first of all that they're number one they're underinvestigated two number two they're sitting in this room with all these people that can say my livelihood is going to be gone or not. So case by case of course, but we also have to understand that there may be mitigating things that causes someone to misspeak. Okay? And it's not just because they're being um there there's a malicious intent to lie, you know. So that that's my

141only caution. >> So that is noted. Um and the admin is hearing you. So from now on on a case-toase basis, when we get to this point, we will present the case and we'll take them on a case to case basis. Sorry for the redundancy. So, I think we've come to a very good common ground. I hope that the board feels that we've gotten a lot achieved tonight. I will tell you I have a lot more clarity around this and so I believe our team will be able to perform better for you in this area because now we have direction. I did hear about moni the accountability of reports and utilizing systems for effectiveness. 100%, Miss Ramirez. That is what they're for. We need to be utilizing them. I will hold my team accountable for

142that. And I do want the board to know that we will have more time to look at this, flush this out. Um, Miss Vanderbrock is going to go back and put a policy together. It'll come back and then you guys can say, "Well, I that's not what I meant. This is what I meant. I think I need to add this." So, right now, it's a soft document. We're still working for it. And I do want to acknowledge that, Miss Hannah, what you said is policy dictates practice. And so if you're setting the policy, it will dictate how we operate and the norms within this district. So I do want to acknowledge that you said that and it was right on the mark because it will help us run um be a better school district with

143more transparency and that's what we're all trying to do as a board. So I want to thank you this evening. Can we give Miss Vanderbrook a a round of applause for presenting tonight? You did a great job. [applause] And I'll turn it over to the board president. Was really really a good um session because this gave us a chance to really be very introspective and think about things that we really needed to uh uh think about and actually hear the other board members uh positions on. So um the thing about the d the the next document that we get is going to be a draft. And the thing about a draft is we can look at it and say, "Well, you know what? Maybe this isn't what I really meant to say. This this isn't

144what I wanted." And so, we can review it and get a second draft or a third draft, as many as we need until we get it right. But th this is a start. And I want to thank Superintendent Placencia for bringing us around to conclusion because I like the way that you summarized everything. we're going, we're discovering a lot of ground and you helped us kind of solidify it and put it into into kind of a an agreement that we're kind of all working towards. So, thank you and thank everybody for being here. This is very uh very productive. And before I ask for a motion to adjurnn, I'd like to ask in the spirit of uh board member time, I'd like to ask if any board members have anything that they would like to

145say about any subject. >> I'll make it Um, I'll make it brief. Um, so Miss Hannah, Mr. McBride, Miss Fabian, and myself were able to attend the dreamers breakfast. Superintendent was there as well. Um, and it was a lovely event put on by WA Keegan Township. Um, Miss Fabian was acknowledged as a drum major this year. I know Miss Hannah was last year. And, um, I really appreciated they had speaker Jesse Jackson Jr. come. um and speak before us. And it was just so wonderful for for me to be able to just hear him speak and tie everything together about what we're seeing now in communities um being terrorized by ICE is not congruent or in alignment with anything that Dr. King had envisioned for the future of America. So, it's just nice to be

146to have attended an event where everyone is in community working toward the same goal where we can all just live in this country and aspire to our hopes and dreams. So, it was a beautiful event. Thank you, Mark Jones, and your entire team. Um, and I just wanted to make sure that we acknowledge Miss Fabian was a drum major this year. >> Anybody else? Okay. In that case, I'd like to ask for a motion to adjourn. >> So, motion by Mr. McBride second by Mr. Riddle. All in favor? >> I >> oppose. Motion carries. Meeting is adjourned at 8:37. >> Thanks everybody. >> Thank you everybody.