001Heat. Heat. N. Heat. Heat. feeling. Happy. Okay, we'll call the meeting to order. Let's uh do the pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Good to have everyone here. Um, this is a reschedule from last week when we had the weather. And before we move to 1.3, I'm going to take a point of privilege and want to recognize last week was board clerk appreciation. And so we have a certificate for you, Mr. Ro, that we would like to present to you. And um and thank you for all what you do for us to keep us on track. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. >> We want that
002displayed in your office. >> Well, it doesn't go unnoticed the the effort and the work behind um all of the work that's happening at the table that you help us with. We appreciate that. So um thank you. We'll move to 1.3, which is we need um a motion to approve the agenda. So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor of uh approving the agenda. Say yes. >> Yes. That carries 70. And then we're going to move into 2.1, which is our um work session. You like to >> Yeah, I'd like to introduce to the board uh Angie Stallb. We'll just have you come up to the hot seat if that's okay. She's the I'm going to attempt the title and then you correct it. She's Well, I think it's true that you're the lead attorney
003at KASB, but she's also the deputy executive director of the Kansas Association of School Board. >> That's right. >> So, we are in good hands this evening, but we really appreciate uh you Angie taking time to come and talk through a couple of things. um board just specifically boardsmanship training and then obviously a uh important topic in McFersonen uh as we head towards March uh is just bond elections and so we are very thankful for you being here and we welcome you to share all of your wonderful knowledge. >> Thank you. Thank you all for having me. I didn't even think about the microphones. Do I need to be on this one? >> Actually we good. >> All right. Well, good. Well, thank you everybody. Um, yeah, my name is Angie Stalmer. Um, I am
004I've been at KSB off and on since Sorry, I'm going to put this down here for some reason I can >> that way I can see you. Um, it's so since 2007. So, um, we have right now we have six attorneys at KSB and we cover the entire state of Kansas. So, it's it's really fun to be able to be out here and to practice preventative law instead of just, you know, cleaning up messes after they happen. So, I appreciate the opportunity to be out here and and meeting with you all and and talking with you all. So, um in in talking with your superintendent, I put together some slides, but we can really take this wherever we want to take this. if there are specific, you know, topics you want to talk about, we
005can get into that. Um, a lot of what we have here is open meetings act type things um and and some focus on just some general board topics that we get a lot of questions on. So, that's the focus, but like I said, we can go a lot of different directions. Um, with that, I'll just go ahead and get started. Hopefully no one is is too offended by Let me see if I can get get me started here. Oh, my Charlton H reference. Um, grew up in Northwest Kansas. So, uh, Moses was always the only thing on at Easter. I don't know if I was the only one that had that experience, but um, so what what I was focusing on was kind of the main things to remember in board meetings. So, uh, we're
006going to cover the things that we would focus on, the thou shalts and the thou shalt nots, right? So, the the main ideas are as as board members, I think it's really important to know when you're in a board meeting because when you're in a board meeting, you need to know that specific rules apply. And so, we're going to focus on rules are to know, you know, what the next steps are. and we'll talk about that and we're going to just talk about general mannerisms and those types of things. We're going to talk about privacy interests and just the you know concepts of it being you know it's your meeting you're in charge and and focus on those things to start us off. So since the uh Kansas Open Meetings Act applies when you're in
007a board meeting I think it's appropriate for us all to know when you're in a board meeting. So getting comfortable with that definition and and when that applies to you I think is important. So the main idea behind the open meetings act is just technically we didn't want or you know the open meetings act and the open records act are kind of uh transparency acts in the state of Kansas. The basic idea is we didn't want our governing bodies making decisions behind closed doors where nobody could see it. Right? So where, you know, taxpayer dollars are being used and those types of things, the goal is for all of those decisions to be made out in the open where people can see what happens. And so most of the time, if we can just air
008on transparency, that's half the battle. Okay? And so with that in mind, the requirements of the Kansas Open Meetings Act are essentially that you do all of the actions of the board in open, so places where people have the right to be, where people have the opportunity to see, oh gosh, the the decisions that you make that you don't take action by secret ballot, right? and and so that got a little tricky during co especially where we were having online meetings where we were sometimes voting electronically because that was an option we didn't think about it right um so one of those things to keep in mind if we ever do a telephone or um you know a zoom meeting or something like that just keeping in mind that we still probably ought to do
009an auditory vote or a show of hands or something so that we know that everybody can perceive how everybody is voting. Uh we have to provide notice of the time, the place, the date of the meeting for all of those that have requested notice of meetings. And I don't know who all has requested notice of your meetings, but pretty standard in most districts is, you know, the bar bargaining unit uh chair, you know, the bargaining unit president and a lot of places local press will ask for that. Do you all know who's requested? We have a list that gets added to throughout that we for example when we had to reschedule this we have our standard list that that goes to so that way >> and and it seems like each year some have seems
010like it always grows because nobody reminds us that old emails have fallen off but >> right >> yeah so I mean that's the main thing you let you let those people know you give them individual notice when you're going to have special meetings like tonight. Um and and that's the ma main thing. You're not obligated to have an agenda, but if you prepare one, you're supposed to make it available. Um and we'll talk about some special situations with special meetings a little bit later in the program. And and then you're only going to recess into executive session for very specific purposes and we'll talk about that later. So, in line with the definitions that I told you we'd talk about. So, as a board member, I want you to be comfortable with when are you
011in a meeting because that's when those rules apply to you. You're in a meeting if three elements are true. The first one being you're in an interactive communication. So, at this point, I've really been talking at you, right? Um, if you were talking back to me, it'd be more interactive. And I promise I'm going to make you do that later cuz I have questions for you. Um, but if I want you to keep in mind that technology has changed the way that we communicate. So, um, although this act was put together when really most of our communications were phone calls and face to face, emails, uh, social media, all of that has changed a lot of the way we communicate. So I want you to keep in mind that those have created new and different
012traps for us to find ourselves into open meeting act problems and and we'll give you some examples. So that's first element. It has to be an interactive communication. Second element is it must involve a majority of the membership of the board. So you have a membership of seven board members. Okay. So majority of the membership is going to be four. Four is that number that is always going to be that magic number, right? So, anytime you have four or more board members having an interactive discussion, I want your Spidey senses to start tingling, right? That we can we're we're twothirds of the way there. Um, you know, if you are if you have a co-op, I'm trying to remember, do you all have a co-op? How many you sit on your co-op board? >> Five.
013So for them three would be the magic number right. So and then the third element is it must be discussing school business. So generally the concept is that if it would involve a vote of the board. So interactive discussion involving four or more board members involving school business. If all three of those things are true then you are having a board meeting and it should be open to the public. you have to give notice to those requiring notice of meetings all of those things. Okay, those are the main things. And then I think it was 2008 that the law was changed to essentially say that we understand that technology has changed how we do business and we understand that there can be such thing as serial meetings that we're not always in the same place
014at the same time having these conversations that we pepper each other with, you know, emails, with text messages, with phone calls. And sometimes, you know, we can have a conversation that takes days and we still get our point across. So, if you all are having collectively a conversation that involves four or more of you and it's intended by any or all of you to reach an agreement on a common topic of discussion that would require board action, that too could be a violation of the open meetings act. Okay. So those are the things that we have to be really careful about is just the understanding that even through emails or a combination of text messages and emails and phone calls and all of those things we can accidentally step into um some some concerns. So
015here's a scenario and these are the types of things that happen pretty frequently. Um, so let's just say your assistant superintendent serves as a hearing officer for student disciplinary appeals. The process is to hear the appeal, put together a report with recommendations, and send it to the board for them to accept, reject, or modify the proposals. This Friday, the assistant superintendent sent the report to the board so they had some time to contemplate privately before the mon this Monday's meeting. When the hearing officer got back to work on Monday, five of the board members have already weighed in on the contents of the report and suggested changes on Monday. By the time you reach this part of the agenda, the board immediately votes to modify the hearing officer's recommendations to a full academic year expulsion.
016There's no discussion and there's immediate action. Is there anything you need to brace for here? So, knowing what you know, obviously you all didn't do this, right? But knowing what you know, are there any problems with how this played out? Yeah. Right. So that that's the concern and that's why often times you probably want to lead lean on your clerk on your superintendent to be that conduit of information and communication if you can. um if you have questions or if you have a need for information, I would encourage you to reach out to one of them so that they can, you know, seek what you need. Um, and probably similarly, if they're going to reach out to you, they're probably going to send whatever they send to you in blind carbon copy so that the,
017you know, you're not accidentally replying all to the whole board and and starting a conversation that way. Um, and so whenever possible, if you can lean on them to figure out when's the best time to call a special board meeting or those types of things, that's always better. Um, just so that you don't accidentally step into a a bad situation. And if you ever have questions, we're here to answer questions. Your local attorney's here to answer questions on that, too. So, be a serial killer. No. The word choice, right? No, can't say things like that out loud. Um, but just be careful about that because this gets a lot of people. For the most part, your, you know, your private records as a board member are not going to be open in most circumstances, right?
018And we'll talk about the Kansas Open Records Act. Oh, and what did I do? Um, oh, it doesn't like bad words, right? I shouldn't have put killer in there. Okay, this is a school after all. Okay, hopefully it's it's okay now. So, um, but in the end, um, with all of this, generally, we just want to ensure that if you're in a situation where, um, if if there was some sort of investigation or something like that, technically, your texts back and forth or your emails could be subpoenenaed. It's rare, but it has happened before. Topeka City Council's board um had some texts that were subpoenaed and those types of things. So uncommon, but it has happened before if people are caught up. >> Um you Oh, >> I just know one practical reminder that the
019board is well aware of at the bottom that you talked there about board members in positions where they can reply and unleash the beast. That's explicitly why I'm blinding you. >> Yeah. in mind so that way there's no accidental reply all >> just for the for everyone's to but that's something we shifted to >> I don't know four or five years ago not actually because of anything here but it was just that >> world of incidental reply halls we just don't put anyone in a position to do that >> yeah so when you think about um are there you Key language is topics that are going to be eligible for a board decision. >> That seems like really specific language. So, are there times that boards blind copy each other just for awareness that hey,
020I've responded. This was my response to a community member. Um, talk to me about that. Yeah, I what I would probably do if you've had a communication with a community member, you received a complaint or they um or you handled a concern in a certain way and you wanted the other board members to know about it or share something, I would probably forward it to the administration and ask that it be, you know, the concern be shared or whatever it is. You know, do you send out Friday notes or anything? So there's probably an update that the superintendent will send out and he can help communicate that >> is that to the school board >> or just best practice. >> It's that's probably what we would call best practice as far as that goes. That
021way because if if you're a board member forwarding communications that you've had with people to other board members, >> they come to all of us. >> They come to all of you. >> Yeah. all get. >> So, a a member in the community emails all of you and and so then I see what you're saying. So, um so if you say if what I would probably do is respond perhaps directly to that person and say, you know, I I've received this message. I forwarded it to our superintendent or whoever is the proper person in the chain of command to receive that. Um, thank you for this message and um, but I wouldn't reply all in a way that the whole board could see what you said. Um, I guess the if you didn't share information
022about how you wanted to deal with that situation, but you just acknowledged receipt, you know, you're probably not doing anything foul in handling that. But if you share how you wanted to handle that situation or what you wanted to do with that information as a board member, then I think you're you're taking an extra step that takes you closer to a open meetings violation. Does that make sense? Anybody have other thoughts on that? Cuz you this happens to you all the time, I'm sure. I think it's the challenge that we face in this type like day and age where we want to make sure that that that that we're providing the response. >> Mhm. And that like and the reality is then so me as the superintendent when I provide a response I will typically
023blind carve the board so they're aware of seeing that I've how I've connected with the person but differently when they're board members that's that kind of becomes the challenge where they want to acknowledge or see um but you would say kind of general best practice just keep the superintendent blind carbon or blind carbon on it avoid others. >> I would probably avoid copying others if you especially if you provide your opinions or how you plan to deal with that or how you plan to you know if they if they're saying something like I think we should take this particular action, right? Um >> it's never that. >> Right? Cuz I think that's the distinction I'm looking for. >> Okay. Um sometimes, you know, there's uh well, we had communication around which elementary schools to close,
024right? And you know, just talking about loving their principal and all these kind of things. And so there was some real diplomacy that I think everybody here was navigating with with the public. And so I mean there's different kind of situations that over time I I just know in the last two years I felt like oh fellow board members should know um the response I gave here and am I breaking the law or am I in the gray cuz I tend to live in the gray. So sorry friends. So, I guess what I would say is, you know, ultimately the board is going to make decisions on whether to let staff go, you know, or whether to close buildings. So, you know, if if your response to a patron is is in support of a
025staff member or those typ of a decision >> or in support of a decision or or those types of things. Um, I still think it's safer not to share it with the full board just because that sets off a a scenario or an environment where you all are having closed door conversations with each other. And I think that's that's the problem is that um here's what I'll I'll tell you about the Open Meetings Act and the Open Records Act is that the issue with it is that you all technically if there was some sort of let's say somebody filed a complaint. Let's say this principal or whomever it was did not get their job or the building was closed. people were upset if they um did a records request and they did all of they
026got all of the superintendent's emails or you know all of the clerk's emails and got this whole email trail with with all of those emails back and forth. They would be able to see that all of these emails were circulated around the board. They could turn that over to the attorney general's office. Maybe they would find a vi violation with what was said, maybe they wouldn't. I don't know. But the ultimate problem is you all stand to be penalized for any violation of the act. And that could be up to $500 per instance per person. And if that happens, the state bank of McFersonen Public Schools cannot write that check for you. That's an individual liability issue. So the public is going to not understand that. Um so you all have to protect yourselves in
027that situation. No one else is going to do that. Um, so I I know you're trying to to help and I know you're trying to satisfy people in doing that, but I guess I would encourage you to take care of yourselves in protecting your your responsibilities and your rights and and all of that as well. >> But just to be clear, it wouldn't be an issue to make sure that they still include me or something so that that information was known. >> Yeah. And then if it if a topic was to come up >> and let's say someone says, "Well, Rebecca replied to mine and I'm making this up and they, you know, say, "Well, if she treated me so poorly in that, then she's got that I then I would have access. I'm trying
028to dream up a reason that that something like that would come up and then we would have an interaction to understand that's just not accurate." >> Yeah. or or we we received so many if you knew that we've received so many um staff comm or patron communications about this staff member. We've received so many patron communications against taking this action with this building and you knew about it and you asked the superintendent could you compile just you know put it in a place where all the board members could read them. He would be able to do that because you will have forwarded all of those to him. he can put it all together in a spreadsheet or whatnot so that you all can see it and it would still be available to you or he
029could compile it and you know scan it. I think that the public doesn't understand how insulated we really are from each other. Mhm. >> You know, I think there's a common, you know, conception out there that we're having a lot of different conversations outside of this table when really, you know, what you've just kind of laid out is that um it's really not supposed to be happening around anything formal, but even uh hesitant around anything that might ever become formal, even if it doesn't appear formal. So, >> that makes sense. Yeah. So, I don't know if I I perfectly answered your question necessarily, but um so this is common sense 101, but I will tell you from, you know, decades of being at board meetings, um you can feel when you walk into a room,
030and I'm I'm sure you all have been in similar meetings, um but the way people interact and you all were super friendly when I walked in and joking with each other and laughing and having a good time. So, I can't imagine that this is ever a problem here. Um, but I've been in board meetings where it it looks, you know, more serious and and more separation and more everything else and arms are crossed and people are detached and and so coming from places where um tension has been very high and people have thrown chairs and people have had tires slashed and whatnot, just being very cognizant of how you present yourself and how you interact with each other and how you show up for people that come to talk to you, I think is important.
031Um, just sometimes I have to remember that my face tells a story when I'm I'm receiving people and I'm receiving comment and I'm listening to people. Um, and that has to be something that I constantly coach myself on. Next thing is just keeping in mind and I I don't know you know what all of your day jobs are and but just remembering your obligation to protect student and staff privacy because you're going to wear a lot of hats. You're going to have a lot of information. Um, and that truly in my mind has to be one of the hardest things that you're going to have to do is to have access to all of this information. Um, access to information that people would love to have or know. Um, you know, friends, community members, neighbors,
032and those types of things that would they would like to know what you know. and being able to, you know, safeguard that information for the good of the students and the employees. I will tell you that if you're unfamiliar with education law, there are federal laws that protect student record information. So, we have to be very guarded with what we give out about that. Um, and we also have state law that kind of mirrors that language on that. Um, and then for employees, it's not quite as clear. Obviously, we have some federal laws that protect medical information and those types of things, but a lot of the protections that are in place for employees are more in case law. Um, but what I would recommend is just keeping in mind that as board members, you're
033you're wearing your employer hat. you're wearing your um steward of of student record information hat. And so anything that we discuss in executive session, just remembering that there's a reason why we have to keep that information private and you know not discuss those things outside of that space. Everything that we discuss in there is protected for a particular reason. Um, and most of the time the reason why it has protections is because, you know, if we stepped out of executive session and said something bad about an employee and they weren't able to get a job elsewhere, they could sue you. They could sue the school district for damages having to do with that. So, there is some danger with saying those types of things. These are the types of situations that we deal with. But
034let's just say you have a a young board member that has a B in her bonnet about your math teacher. Ever since she gave her that A minus in trigonometry as you have contract extensions and non-renewals on the agenda for tonight, she's come in demanding access to his entire personnel file. Should the staff provide it? No. Right. And this is one of those things, you know, sometimes it's it's hard, but as an individual board member, just because you're an individual board member does not mean you have the keys to the castle. You all hold the power as you sit as a group of seven acting collectively, right? So, four or more of you voting in favor of something or four or more of you directing staff to provide you access to evaluations or those types
035of things, make that happen. Um, but in this circumstance, if an individual board member comes in and and requests access to information that they wouldn't normally have access to, they're not necessarily going to get access to it. um not anything more than you would get in a regular um open records act case. Right now, if you find that you need more information because you're faced with a vote that you're not prepared for, I would recommend that you reach out to your administration and say, "I just don't feel like I know enough about this. Can you get me more information?" And if you're struggling with information or lack thereof to to make good decisions, my guess is other people feel the same way, right? So, um often times what happens in those situations is your administration
036will provide the same information to all the board members so you all have it. Um and so that often times helps. Sometimes this also looks like um individual board members hopping in on schools, you know, to to kind of like survey classrooms or or do those types of things. And and generally, um again, this isn't legal. This isn't a law that's being broken or anything, but we would recommend best practice is, you know, that single board members not necessarily do that. that you're a you're more like a patron at that point. You have to follow regular security protocols if you want to volunteer in the school setting. Go through that process of volunteering like anybody would. >> Right. >> All right. And then >> just to name something, you guys already do a good job
037of that. I've taken >> several different folks on walkthroughs with me and the volunteering and things like that. So, >> thank you already for the work that you do on that and that's a good reminder for all of us. what you do a good job. >> Yeah. Awesome. So, what what he's saying is I'm I'm harping on you guys and you're doing a great job. >> Actually, I'm mostly saying it because we're on YouTube and I like for other people to know that they're always doing it right. >> Um I do remind uh boards to keep in mind that it is your meeting, right? So, the law requires that it be a meeting that's accessible to the public, but it just it that does not mean that it's a public meeting, right? It's the board's
038meeting. It's the board's meeting where you're doing the business of the school district and that you have a lot to do, right? How many times a month do you meet? Is it once or twice? Depends. Depends. >> Not a lot, but >> depends on. Yeah. >> Right. So I mean if you think about it and how long are your meetings >> depends okay so so you know with 12 let's say 12 to 24 hours of meetings a year depends 36 um that's a lot to accomplish right in the course of a year uh there's a lot of time in between meetings so you need to be get the most out of the time that you're together So, as of right now, there's nothing in the law that necessarily requires boards to allow time for public
039comment. I'll give you some caveats, of course. Okay. Um, budget hearings. Okay. So, every year you'll have a budget hearing. You need to provide opportunity for comment during budget hearing. If you're going to exceed the revenue neutral rate, you provide opportunity for comment on that. Uh if you are going to close a school building, you have to give opportunity for comment on that. So those are all things that the law specifically recognizes as as needing to open the floor for comments. Outside of that, we don't technically have anything right now baked into statute saying that we have to provide time. Okay. With that said, most boards do, right, allow time for public comment. It's an opportunity for the community to to voice what's going on with them. But you can decide what works for you.
040You can decide how frequently you offer it and your policy likely says that your president has the opportunity to decide in a given meeting whether or not to allow time for public comment. It probably also says that the superintendent can decide, you know, whether in a certain circumstance the rules for public comment can shift. So that could mean if it if there was something that really had people up in arms um and there were a bunch of people that wanted to talk about the same topic, you could have people appoint a spokesperson on each side. You could limit comment to just a brief period um for both sides. You can have rules on public comment. The main thing to keep in mind is once you create this forum for speech, you cannot viewpoint discriminate within
041that forum. Okay? So you can provide a limited forum if you wanted. So, what I mean by that is you could say, you know, tonight we're only taking comment on facility issues if you wanted to, but you couldn't just say, I've had enough negativity, only happy thoughts tonight, right? Um, that that's the kind of stuff that we'd love to say, but we really can't say cuz that's not viewpoint neutral. Um, so that part is up to you. Now, what gets a little tricky uh when we get into social media, and I want to make sure that I address some of the social media issues, is that for any of us that that use media as an option, you know, the the tendency is to get on whether it's, you know, Facebook or Twitter or whatever
042it is that you use um and propose actions or or throw out questions and see check everybody's temperature on different things. So, for example, if you were proposing something like a bond issue to upgrade facilities and you said, you know, I support a bond issue to upgrade our facilities. Um, what do you all think about it? Do you think that's acceptable on Facebook? And if you say that >> board or >> if you're a single board member and you say I support a bond issue to say let's say to build a new gymnasium, right? Or or whatever it is, right? Let's say you have three other board members that are on Facebook. I'm just making stuff up at this point to make it complicated, right? So you have three more board members that are on
043Facebook. Does it matter whether they engage with that post or not? >> Yep, >> it does. Right. So, there are some cases, not in Kansas, but there are some cases that essentially say a like on Facebook. So, if they give you a thumbs up or if they were to comment, you know, sharing their support for something that you've already said, I support this, that's a communication of of support or like, right? So, you're technically you're already in a space that's closed because Facebook is not open to everybody. It's kind of a membership group anyway, even with a public profile. Um, so be careful about that. You're you're having a conversation. You're technically in a space where you could be having a serial meeting. So, if you're going to use social media as a listening tool,
044I would recommend that you put very open-ended questions out there and just listen, right? Don't express your thoughts on something. And make sure that you all around this table. Don't engage with the content or like the content or express how you feel about it with each other's posts. Otherwise, you get into a situation where you could have a serial meeting that bubbles up, you know, without meaning to. Anybody have questions about the types of things we've already talked about? >> Well, this whole issue with social media thing is a whole new ball game. >> Yeah. >> And being an old guy, I don't like a lot of it. >> Yeah. >> I'd rather deal on face to face stuff. So, I don't do any of that stuff. >> Yep. >> Is that wrong? >> No.
045No. I I'm I'm a I'm a fossil because there are several social medias I don't deal with just because I've had so many personnel issues I've had to deal with that have have been with Snapchat and all of those other things that I'm sure would be great uh Instagram that uh would be great as a a mother with kids but I'm so frustrated with them because they've made my professional life very frustrating you know so I get that >> since we're supposed to conduct our business in public, it seems to me that's a good clue not to engage in any of that. >> Yeah. And then you don't fall in those traps. Does that make sense? Yeah, I get that. No, absolutely. Yeah. Just be be cognizant of that. There's there there are traps. So,
046if you are engaging in those medias, just take care of yourselves. Be careful about it or um you know, use it just for personal purposes. you know, if you truly just use those things for personal and not your board membership, you know, those are the things that I want you to think about is if you're using it um as a tool to um to seek re-election and those types of things, there are some cases that are interesting out there that I could talk to you about later that um have to do with that because sometimes when you're you're using it as a uh public official, there's a little bit of a higher standard with the content that you put on there. So, just be cognizant of that. If it's kind of a blend of school
047and personal, um then you're walking a fine line when you start blocking people and and doing other things like that. You're almost better off either just having a board member one and a separate personal one. So you keep it separate and understand one has to be completely um board member related and one has to be completely personal. That way you don't blend those two things. Um, >> can you say more to the board member because I thought we had some guidance that if it was a board social media platform that it is the board's social media and not an individual board member. Um, so could you clarify maybe that for us? >> Yeah. So, so like which what platforms are you using as a board? >> As a board, we're not we don't have one,
048but there was some questions about that recently. What would that look like in um our current uh bond focus? Should there be >> should is a dangerous word. I know. >> So, maybe ought I should say the word. >> So, like what you can say about the bond. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Let me find another gear. Let me keep moving. Okay. I'll I'll I will kick it up a notch. And I have that in here. Let me move ahead. Um let me just get to that since we were talking about it. Oh, you can stay where you are. You sure? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I will I will move fast. >> No, no. I just I think it's >> Dr. Vincent knows I can find another deer. Okay, >> we That was
049an impressive one. I thought >> Okay, here here's what we'll do. We will go real fast. So, um let's talk about executive session real quick. Are you What's our comfort level with the executive session? Do we feel like we understand it? >> What we need to do? How we need to do? I that might be worth clarifying just for the board's knowledge. Um there's this as you read it the misuse of executive session. We >> we have a breakdown I think probably provided I'm going to guess probably six or seven years ago. >> Mhm. >> The the motions are very specific and board officers and I talk about that. So those are copy and pasted in and they are very for very specific. Do you have the specific examples? >> Okay. Yes. So this changed
050in 2017. It used to be we didn't have to pro provide near as much information. Uh the law changed and now we need to so we always recess into executive session and these motions have to include three distinct parts. Um, they have to have a statement describing the subject we're going to talk about in executive session, which is like a little nugget of what it is we're going to talk about. Okay? And then we have to talk about the legal justification for going into executive session. And that's going to come directly from the statute. And I I will show you some examples of the types of legal justifications that you're going to use. Um, and then the third piece, and I guess it's several pieces al together, but it is going to include like the
051time and the place that the open meeting will resume, if that makes sense. Okay, so let me let me give you some examples. So, you heard me say we'll have a little subject and then we'll have the justifications. So, these are the types of legal justifications that we would go into for executive session. And I know that type is really small. Um, so the superintendent can send this to you if you don't already have it, but we can go in for personnel, uh, student information, attorney client privilege, negotiations, discussion of acquisition of real property, security issues, uh, data or financials secrets, those types of things. The financial affairs and trade secrets, you're almost never going to use that. Be careful about overusing that. Um, and so we have we put the together this guide in
0522017 when it started. This is not a perfect end all beall of of the examples. Yeah, sorry about that. That's real small. We can email this to you. Um, so you have copies, but these are just examples of the types of things. So it becomes kind of an art form to try to figure out how do we create a subject that doesn't give too much information because the whole idea is we're trying not to give too much information about what we're talking about in such a way that we hurt somebody's privacy interest. Right? So, for example, if we were talking about really if you're going in to to discuss the superintendent's evaluation, the topic could be um and I'll I'll give you a sample motion here. So I move we go into executive session to
053discuss an individual employees performance pursuant to the non-elected personnel justification under coma and the open meeting will resume in the boardroom at 6:55 p.m. you know, and that's essentially it, right? The kicker with this is that we have to include the whole motion and that has to be perfectly recorded in the minutes because if if there was some sort of complaint, they would look for that. There are times I will have Mr. Roads read back the motion to make sure that we have captured that before we continue in the uh motion. >> Yeah, if that makes sense. just for that we're all on the same page here in the same thing. >> Yeah. And if you know if you know what you're going to need, they can have a script kind of written up. And
054I know sometimes on the fly we have to write these things and you have to wing it, but um but yeah, hopefully it's it's a lot. Um but that's that's the tricky part. So, what if somebody comes up to you after executive session and wants to know what happened to a staff member that was bullying their daughter? You discussed it in executive session. How do you handle that as a board member? >> Can't talk about it, right? And that's never satisfying. Um, and that that's that's one of those things that I think uh I appreciate is has to be hard in the community um where you're doing this work and and living, you know, this close to the people that you serve, but getting comfortable with saying this is a non-elected personnel matter. I'm not
055at liberty to discuss it is something that I want you to get comfortable with. Um, real quickly, I want to move into the bond issue discussion. I would encourage you all to make sure that you don't circumvent your policies and your procedures, that you follow those with regard to dealing with complaints because you're going to have um most likely some chain of command situations. Um, Dr. Vincent, do you have the who to contact in case of, you know, if you have a problem in a classroom, this is who you would contact and do they all have that information? >> You know, I want to resend that out. We pulled that together. >> Yeah. you're too little. >> And it might be if if you get contacted by, you know, your your patron that has that
056issue, it is at least nice if you're able to say, I see, thank you for your email. I see that you're having an issue with your daughter's teacher. I'm not at liberty to help you with that situation because I have to be available to handle issues that come to a board at an appeal level. But um I can direct you to this, you know, this chain of command or this contact list that would say that your first contact should be the child's teacher or the principal or whatever it is, right? and he can share that with you so that you have it. >> That's in our governance. >> Yeah. Awesome. And most of the time you're going to have policy that says, you know, people have redress of grievances. If people want to address the
057board, they can come to public comment and talk to you. Um, generally you're going to have policy that says before people address the board in executive session that the administration gets the opportunity to try to address issues with them first. Um, >> and would they address us in executive session? >> When would they? >> Yeah. I mean, generally, my hope is that they wouldn't come to you directly in executive session until it maybe comes to you more as a final level of a complaint appeal or something like that. Even if if it does, some boards elect to hear people more at random because they've requested it. The concern with doing that is that you've bypassed your processes and if you bypass your processes then that becomes more the norm and people are going to expect
058that. Um but as a process if they've gone through the chain of command and then before we would hopefully before they would go to KSD >> Yeah. >> there would be some kind of process in place >> that you show you've taken these steps and you still feel like you need extra support for whatever. >> Yeah. And and truly part of my concern with the board stepping in and hearing a matter or or diving into a situation too quickly is that you're going to have complaint processes that say that you engage at a much later level as an appeal. Um you know as as a trier on an appeal or you'll handle a student disciplinary matter on appeal or those types of things. So if you already know too much at a much lower level,
059it really impacts your ability to handle a situation as a clean slate. Um so if anything, sometimes addressing that with people may help, may not help. And then having a a basis of knowledge that the type of complaint it is will depend will will affect how it's handled under your policy. So, for example, sexual harassment complaints have to be handled a very specific way. So, if if we meddle in it and and convolute it, it's going to make it complicated to to get uh to handle it in line with your processes. So, I'd just turn those things over to your administration and and let them take over um for the most part. And I would keep in mind that you know you all are responsible for you know the law. You create the law of
060the school district. People are going to try to broaden. I mean, you have a a sphere of concern that is clearly going to be much much much broader than what your sphere of control is and much much broader than what your staff's ability to regulate is. And so just taking a deep breath and understanding, you know, what what the grasp of your resources are to to deal with those issues um and how you want to, you know, assign those resources within the school setting is going to be important. >> Okay, now we're getting into Oh, yes. >> Yeah. going to say in my experience in administration whatnot, I've never found it to be a good deal when you invite somebody into >> executive. Yeah. And I would say to keep in mind if if that
061ever happens, um not again not that I would recommend it, but if that ever happens, keep in mind that you all have the responsibility to keep information confidential. They do not. Right. So if they come in to talk to you, as Mr. McCabe knows, you you listen. You ask clarifying questions if you feel that necessary, but then I would ask them to leave before you discuss it as a board, whatever that issue is, because they can take your discussion and talk to other people about it. And that's the piece that you really want to keep close to your vest. Okay, this is the part that I was trying to get to and it was taking me a long time. So, as board members, um, I would really, really recommend, uh, this is kind of the
062newspaper principle, but be careful about, you know, not, uh, writing, typing, texting, posting, saying things that you wouldn't want with a billboard on your face, uh, with your face on it. And we're going to take a little bit of time and talk about free speech for board members. We're going to talk about Kansas Open Records Act, just so you have an understanding of it. And we're going to get into bond issues. So, it's going to be like a a a big coast and then we're going to real quickly move through meetings understanding. Um, okay. Kansas Open records act. This is kind of the sister act to open meetings act. Luckily, you all don't have to hopefully deal with it too much. Just know that any records in the possession of the school district are open
063to request by anyone at any time. Um, so like I said, they shouldn't be able to come into your living room and request your personal files and and that grasp shouldn't, you know, get into your personal Yahoo files or Gmail files or those types of things. But keep in mind that any emails that you send to school staff members are within reach, right? So if you have forwarded something to a staff member, they can probably grab those. If you have text texted you know a staff member those are probably within reach. So things to keep in mind there are 50ome exceptions to this. So you know there are some personnel records that that we have to provide like contracts and salary and uh name and length of service and those types of things but most
064other things we don't have to provide. student record information we all have to provide but with exception emails and those types of things we have to provide. So just be careful about that. Also keep in mind that there is a real trend out there to record conversations. We're seeing this a lot. Kansas is a single party record state. So um you know whether you have adopted did you all adopt the policy on uh KGB >> on >> Yeah, it is. Thought it was cute at the time. Um >> now that I'm older and wiser. Um but in Kansas it is legal to record another party. You may have adopted a policy that essentially says that that's not okay in the school setting ex outside of specific situations. >> We do have that as of 2017
065or 2018. >> Yes. >> 2017 it was last reviewed. >> So you can record people and you don't have to tell them >> if you're a part of the conversation. >> If you're a party to the conversation, but I couldn't sit out here, you know, technically it now in a public meeting. You know, that's that is kind of a a rare difference. Under most circumstances, I couldn't come record you in a place in a private place where I have no right to be. Does that make sense? >> Um, but keep that in mind. If I if I were to come strike up a conversation with any of you and I'm a active participant, it's not illegal for me to record it. So, just know that as you're out there dealing with people. Um, keep it
066keep that in mind. I put some pointers in here. You know, newspaper principle. We already talked about it. I I wouldn't put anything in writing you're not comfortable with people seeing um and sharing because people do tend to see and share those things. Um, be careful about not about sharing any topic of executive session with people. Keeping in mind that some conversations don't translate well to text or or email. Um tone is important. Sometimes conversations are better face to face. Um and just the value in sometimes allowing the heat of the moment to wear off and sometimes we're all smarter than the next day. So, um I would I would encourage you to, you know, sleep on it before you send nasty grams to people late at night. Um if you use social media and
067if you're worried about that, I would pay attention to your privacy settings. Um you know, if you want it to be a private account, make make those changes. Okay, we're going to talk about bond issues. So, I'm going to get into I think I've talked about both of those things. Okay, let's talk about um how can I be politically active without stepping over the line. All right, so there is there is a um statute in the state of Kansas and again this is tiny. I know that and I should have blown it way up, but there this one says that no officer or employer employee of the state of Kansas or any municipality and believe it or not um school districts are considered in certain circumstances municipalities of the state of Kansas because you're a
068taxing subdivision. you all um are are restricted rest I can't use words restrict restricted from use of public funds or public vehicles machinery equipment or supplies um or any time of the officer or employee for um expressly advocating the nomination election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate for state or local office. Okay. So, that's not a bond issue, but I just want to make you aware of that. So, so like your school staff members since they are compensated for their time, since they use school district resources and those types of things, if they were using uh school district resources to um advocate or governor or whatnot. Notice this is state or local. It doesn't say national um but state or local office. Now you probably have GAB in our policies that is on political
069activities that's somewhat broader than that and and I think we cover national right any political party or office or um and it also gets into political um topics right um but then it specifies that you all can provide information to legislators on topics having to do with education um as that being acceptable. Okay. Now, um this also says that they're not allowed to distribute or cause to be distributed any um flyers that expressly advocate for the election or defeat of clearly identified candidates. This comes up sometimes when board members are seeking reelection, when um state or city or any people are seeking re-election and they come to the schools asking to be a part of classroom discussions or I'd love to be a part of a debate. they invite themselves to be speakers and those
070types of things and then we have to roll this out and say I'm sorry we can't unless we get everybody there right because otherwise the school district is promoting a particular candidate so it's kind of an everybody or nobody situation so I know that was more about candidates let's talk about bond issues we don't have a lot of specific statutory language on this but we have attorney attorney general's opinions. Now, attorney general's opinions, I know these are old um but the way these work is our attorney generals over the years take the statutes that we have and they opine on certain situations and unless those attorney general's opinions have been withdrawn, we kind of use those as guidance. Um so we do have this one on bond issues that essentially says that um public funds
071may be expended to educate and inform the public on issues to be voted upon by the electorate. So essentially that it is acceptable for a school district to share information about you know what a bond would buy, right? that if if we move forward with the bond election, this is what this would look like. Here's how this would be developed. This is what um would happen with that. Now, this is another attorney general's opinion that essentially says with that in mind though, officers of the school district are to maintain a semblance of neutrality. So even though you may, you know, send out flyers or share information or have campaigns wherein you provide information about what the bond may provide, you should not be providing information in an official capacity to essentially tell people how to
072vote. Does that make sense? So, >> so in your official capacity, they would like you to not advocate a particular stance on the issue. So, anything coming out from the district is not supposed to say vote yes on, right? But it can say all kinds of information about what would happen if this happens, right? Um, so now I kind of buried the lead here, but then I give you all these examples. But so if we had a vote yes campaign group that asked the district um asked to use the district newsletter for their vote yes ads as the election approaches, we should >> probably not, right? Yeah. I mean that that's it's it's tricky. All of this stuff is tricky. If staff members and board members put vote yes signs in their yards of their
073own houses though, is that okay? >> Yes, >> I think that's in your individual capacities, right? This this is your own yard, right? So that's that's the difference. Okay. Um this is not perfect. Um so just keep that in mind. Um does anyone have questions about that? I know this is a big issue for you all. So I don't want to leave that too quickly. >> I think the question that I've had and I'll try to capture it with this group is just that that kind of sense of being of neutrality and the idea of well the board. So I think what I've heard at least couple members talk about is it's just it's it's tough because they as a board made a decision to put this in front of our community. >> They support
074the long range plan. There were votes established on that and that idea that neutrality if a person captures him on the she catch not captures them hopefully not being captured my friends but uh he catches them on the street and says hey tell me about this what's your take on whether I should support it or not it's in those questions that it feels great to some of the board members to be able to say what would your advice be to them on that in that moment >> yeah I mean I think it's important just be comfortable saying um I think you could probably say personally, right? Uh get comfortable saying, you know, uh our board is not taking a position on this necessarily or you know, I'm taking my board member hat off, right? uh
075or if you don't feel comfortable giving them advice and say I'm happy to answer any question you have about this or I can point you in the direction of and then you don't get into any trouble whatsoever. Um you can say personally um and this is me not speaking with my official board member hat on. I I either support or I oppose or whatever your feelings are on it. Um, obviously the board felt like it was a good idea to put forward to the voters at least, right? So, um, but I I would probably tiptoe away from giving specific advice on it. I'd probably let your sign in your yard speak for itself for the most part if you can because they probably aren't coming to you. Um, but for your position as a board
076member, I think that's a little tricky. So, I would probably try to not answer those questions specifically and just provide any information. >> So, you're telling me I can't suggest a person to vote yes. Yes. On a bond issue. >> If you do, I would just say personally. >> Well, of course, >> as a as an individual, >> I'm not speaking for the board. I'm speaking for me. >> And I think that's important. That's kind of a joke cuz we voted 70 to bring this out. >> Right. Right. >> I mean, I get the line about not using school funds to pro, you know, to say vote this way or being informational. >> Yeah. >> But when I become a community member out there talking to people, I think I have every right to say
077vote yes. Yes. >> Yeah. And just be careful. Be careful how you communicate that. be careful how you use your title in communicating that. I think that those are the important pieces. If you were out there putting, you know, your name and your title in a letter to the editor, you know, encouraging people to vote, that would probably carry a a stronger message that you are endorsing a yes vote as a board member than if you were having a discussion with your neighbor as an individual. And if you make it clear that I as an individual support this or I as an individual feel there, I think you're better off. Again, these are attorney general's opinions. We don't have specific statutes that are making that illegal. It's just best practice at this point. >> Does
078that make sense? >> Yeah. Think it's garbage. Sorry, >> but I will tell you as the main thing is I would not authorize the use of district funds. Right? That that's the main idea. Don't authorize the use of any of the district funds to to advocate a yes or yes vote is probably the main thing that could really have people upset. In the past two weeks, I probably had seven or eight people come to me because they know I'm a school board member. Sure. >> And they wanted information. >> Yeah. >> Often times they say, "What should I do?" I say, "Oh, yes." >> Personally, I think I >> mean, we've been having these public meetings and I've had some good discussion with people. >> Fortunately, everybody I've talked to is a yes voter already.
079>> Sure. But I think our presence there makes makes a statement to them that >> Yeah. >> We want it done. >> Well, I get that. >> Yeah. >> Of all the stuff we have going out now. Is that all any of that paid by? >> No. We have we have information uh items that go out and we have information letting them know anything and everything that we send out would be in alignment with KSB legals guidance on information provided and that is we have an obligation to provide information to tax >> voters in particular. But all of that is funded by uh is funded on the school district side not funded by a support group one or the other. And just for the board's awareness, each year we have run it or each time
080uh that this has come forward in my time here, there's been unfortunately multiple examples of having uh groups that are interested in and or individual members who are interested in supporting uh and we've had to decline any kind of a district use of those messages being there because uh of exactly what you shared earlier. We don't take a political we don't allow that um to occur um with any of our public communication. >> Awesome. Well, the last thing I have for you is just general meeting related procedures. I don't know how comfortable you all are with that. If you are burnt out and want to be done, um >> how about we take just a little break? Yeah. Yep. When we get back, we answer your question >> cuz you asked about a group page.
081>> Oh, group page. >> A board page. Does everyone need a five minute? >> Yeah, we can make a five minute. >> Anybody finish? Right. >> Good job. >> Okay. Well, we'll uh continue our good discussion and training here. Pick up where we left off. All right. So, um we'll just kick back into some voting and meeting procedures. some of this u and and we can have you know I guess before we we leave because I will I'm a simple creature and I'll forget what what we were on I think we were having a bit of a conversation about uh social media um talking about the possibility of a board social media page. I'm not aware honestly of any boards that have their own social media page. My concern would be who is the mouthpiece.
082I know we have policies. Uh I'm thinking it's in the K section and I I would have to back out of this to find it. It's like uh trying to think Dr. Vincent if I get out of this will is this showing on the uh will they see all of my files? They will I'm really interested in having >> Yeah, that there was a question if he should. So, while he's here, no, I I'm not >> I'm not not taking any side in that. Here's what I I will tell you is is since you since you operate as a board that makes decision through um four or more of you voting affirmatively. I just I feel like it's awfully hard for you to appoint a spokesperson and have a mouthpiece that can actively speak for
083you in social media unless it's a staff person. Um, and I I feel like you already have policy in place that likely makes the superintendent your mouthpiece. Um, and I will send you what our sample is. Um, because I think I think we have those in place in the K section. I just need to find it on here and I'll send it to you. Um, so I would probably discourage it just because I feel like there's no good way to do it outside of I think it lends itself to serial meetings. If if you're to actually actively utilize something agree on everything >> and you don't agree on how it's going to be used, I think that's so hard. Um, so I think you're better off actively using your own social media channels if that's
084the way that you want to to handle it and allowing the district to have the district's social media channels that they utilize. Um, and having their approved messages that go out. Now, you can have a board newsletter or something that is vetted, you know, through through the board. Um, you know, there could be an approval process or something that you all can approve of if you would like. Um, so that could be something that you talk about as far as a regular communication going out to your publics. I think that would be smart. And that could be posted on your website or something. So, that's not to say you can't communicate collectively. I just don't know that social media is the way that I would go about doing it. Um, because I just don't feel
085like the way a board processes aligns itself with that very well. Um, one thing that I I would say is there is a case and I'm trying to remember what state it was out of. I actually had it in this presentation and then I pulled it out for time purposes cuz I knew I was going to go late. Um, but that got into a board member use of Facebook and we talked about it just a little bit before, but the the trouble the board member got into was he was blending personal with board member actions and then he started blocking people that he didn't like. Um, and so then he had an individual that sued essentially saying that he was denied his First Amendment rights and that that board member was acting as a state
086actor in in doing um in in communicating those things and and the court in that circumstance looked to whether or not that board member was authorized to speak on the part of that entity. No, it wasn't. I think he was speaking for a city council, not a school board. But um I don't think there was anything that the city council actually did to anoint him as their spokesperson necessarily. And they also looked to whether or not he was just taking information that the city council had already posted in some other place and then regurgitating it or if he was the first point of information for all of that. Um but ultimately the court had or the lower court had found for this the city council men initially and then the upper court looked at that
087and said you know he may be somewhat at fault at the higher level and said we're going to crack this back open and and work with some things. So, it's something to keep in mind and that's why I recommended maybe keeping those two separate, the personal and the board member piece. Okay, I want to just make sure I kick into this real quick and we will not spend time on things that you don't want to spend time on. Um, these are your powers as a board. You have the power to put in place policy that you deem necessary to operate the local public schools. you are um not able unfortunately to change laws that you don't agree with. Um although that would be really convenient at times. You're not able to to take powers away
088from other entities that have been given them by law, but otherwise you're able to create the law of the school district. And you do that through policy and handbook. um within that sphere of control that you have and keeping in mind the resources that you have, you have um the ability to elect your leaders and those leaders serve in those roles for terms of one year and in the absence of your your president or vice president, the remainder of the board would appoint somebody to serve as a president prompor for for those purposes. the board president under statute doesn't necessarily have, you know, um super super um special powers. Your board policy though will will give the board president some additional authorities, you know, as far as agenda setting and presiding over meetings and and
089those types of things. So, you'll be able to pull some some nuggets out of policy that will um have heightened duties, but otherwise, the board president has the same ability to make motions and vote and and all of that as everybody else does. Special meetings can be called by the board president or any three board members acting together. Um, technically each board member under Kansas law is entitled to two days of notice to special board meetings. That's not to say that we couldn't wave that notice. So, if we needed to have a special board meeting tomorrow morning, we could have the special board meeting tomorrow morning. It just means that Dr. Vincent would bring a paper for you to sign and those that show up would sign the paper. as long as we have four
090members show up that are able to, you know, take actions, that's all we would need. Um there's we don't we cannot it's not that we can't hold a meeting that fast. >> So are there times that three board members would um discuss and then bring forward we think we need a special board meeting? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that is acceptable under the law. So, three board members could propose we have a special board meeting. >> And who do they propose that to? >> Yeah. So, I think you could let the superintendent know or the uh clerk know or the board. I guess, you know, I wouldn't do a whole lot of, you know, four board members having those discussions. I think the attorney general's office has said procedurally you can have discussions about the need
091to have a meeting, but I would still probably just tell your superintendent just to not have a lot of board member discussions. So, I'd let your superintendent know usually. Um, and then the agendas for special meetings, technically you have those meetings for the purpose for which they're called and then you don't change that. And that's why sometimes, you know, we may find that we want to tax something on. Um, and that's why we end up calling another special right after the first and it seems kind of silly, but that's the reason for it is that we have to have we can't really amend the agenda of a special board meeting. Um, if you all were to go, you know, like attend something else as a group, if you showed up at a wedding together, if
092you showed up at a city council um, meeting together, you can do that. Oh goodness, you can do that and that's okay. Um, but if you feel as though you're going to be have a having a discussion about school business, I'd go ahead and notice it as a meeting that you believe a quorum of your board is going to show up at a space and we're going to be having a discussion about school business. Even if you're going to KSB convention together or you're having a work session or whatever it is, um, technically if people show up, you're supposed to let them in um to see how that proceeds. But um I'm going to skip this just for for time. Agendas. Um there's nothing in coma that requires an agenda. All right. So technically though,
093it's it's open. Um once you prepare it, I' I'd provide it. There was something in the law that changed just this last year and I just want to make you all aware of it. Um, essentially what changed was that anytime a majority, okay, so if if there's a subcommittee or a subordinate group that's created by this board and a majority of that group meets, you're supposed to give notice to those requesting notice of your meet of your meetings that that subgroup is meeting and allow them an opportunity to come to those meetings. Okay. So, can you think of >> you're talking about like negotiations? Are you talking about like a strategic planning meeting to get like what does that mean? >> Right. Right. That's an excellent question. Um, so we're always looking for more information
094to be coming. Um, I've pulled some Let me show you what we have from the attorney general's office. This is what they have on their website. So, um, so far what the attorney general has put off of their website is anytime that the board has created a subcommittee. So, I would say, you know, examples could be like a facilities group, um, if you have a facilities group that meets or if you have a districtwide um, what am I trying to say? Um, >> well, let's just use facilities. Yeah. >> So when you say majority of that group, does that mean the three board members that are on it and the other five people that are on the group? >> Yeah. So if you have So you have eight anytime um five of them are going
095to meet, you give notice of those meetings. If you know five of them are going to meet cuz we do give notice for negotiations. I mean I think that one's pretty pretty straightforward. I let me ask you a really nuanced question that this so when this law changed there was a tremendous amount of dialogue around it is >> subcommittee of the board >> right >> versus subcommittee or not a subcommittee committee that helps with administrative duties >> right so if it's a subcommittee >> of the board okay that's one thing if it's a subcommittee created by your superintendent so so that is part of the question. If it's a if it's a group that your superintendent delegates to or creates or it's a or that he appoints based off of staff, right? Then that's separate
096and I don't think you have to worry about that. But if you all approved lists of committees as a board, which we do, then I would take a second look at those, right? And I would pay special attention if a majority of those people on those committees are meeting. Negotiations is a little complicated because it actually comes from a different law. It comes from the professional negotiations act. And so it's a little unclear >> and we do it. I think the public has like we probably send out lists about negotiations to people that we >> and your negotiations are open anyway. >> Facilities would be is the most nuanced of them all and persons MCC would be the other one that I think those are kind of the two standing ones that would meet the
097most. It's I mean from a practice standpoint >> we know when those are >> we would be able to make them available. It's the question. There's minutes I think kept in both of those scenarios. >> And that's one of those I mean for the most part I don't think keeping minutes really is anything that you're required to do as part of this. What's interesting is if if these groups have to meet and if they have to go into some sort of executive session um because they have to talk about something sensitive then you technically have to keep minutes because you have to write down your motion to go into executive session. So, you know, if you do treat your negotiation sessions, your caucuses or whatnot, um, as those sessions, then you would make executive sessions
098or you would make motions. I will follow up with you in the next day or so and then I'll communicate after the board on kind of >> after because I'll just take I'll let's just sit down and I'll talk those through with you >> because you're going to clarify we understand the majority means four people of this board >> right it's based off of that >> that committee which can be made up of patrons >> right school and district personnel and board members. And when that ratio um >> is majority then >> so if we have eight people on the facilities committee and six of the eight are there or five of the eight are there you have we should technically open it to the public >> right and that's if if people have requested
099notice of their meetings right so so that's part of the question too is if people have requested notice >> of those um >> some point I mean for me >> I'm going to shift because that one makes sense right now facilities are hot topic but let's shift to like being curriculum counsel that might become something fortunately we're pretty good but there for a while it was there were a lot of curriculum types of questions that were coming up and now >> that would be something that >> we would just want to know >> right I would anticipate maybe this is wrong but I would anticipate your curriculum council >> isn't that predominantly staff members That's on that. >> Yeah. >> And isn't that true than one board member? Okay. >> I think that's the other
100thing I'd want to talk to you about is just taking a look at membership, taking a look at purpose behind them because I know >> through some of the original evaluation of a variety of our committees, >> you know, and then you get into the thing about too, well, if the board approves them and has appointed to them, if that makes it, then does that an action of approval actually make it a subcommittee of the board or does it make it >> and then at which point >> I think it calls into question, why does the board approve it? And and I think you should probably look to kind of the question you raised earlier. Does it guide the board's decisions or is it by is it guiding the administration's decisions? And if it's really
101guiding the administration's decisions, not the board's decisions, should the board be approving them anyway? Um, so that might be something to look at in in the future. But yeah, we can we can touch base. >> Um, >> so we love gray. >> Yeah. Um, so notice >> that was a that was a last year law, correct? >> Yes. Yes. That was just this summer and and there has been some dialogue. You know, these were these were changes that were kind of tacked on in in later stages. Um, so that may I haven't seen a bill that messes with this yet um this session. So I don't know if it's going to get massaged or changed or anything, but we did talk with some lawmakers about some concerns with it. So we'll see if anything happens.
102Um, with notice, uh, it can be if we're providing notice of of meetings, it can be just a phone call or it can be an email. I like an email or written notice just so that we have a paper trail of that if there was any question. But if you're short on time, um, you know, technically there's nothing providing what reasonable notice of a meeting is. Um, you we don't want to sit on it for too long. We want to be transparent. So, if we know a meeting's upcoming, you know, but the point is to not, you know, wait too long. But um but ultimately there's no timetable involved with that. The only place in the law that it specifically talks about as amount of notice is for you all with special board meetings and
103that's that 2 days of notice and that's what's in here. Um as far as quorum and rules and I promise this we're approaching the end here. Um, Kansas law is special in that it says that four board members are required for any vote to happen. And so that's part of why we don't recommend Robert's rules of order be used because if Robert's rule says if a majority is present that um a what if a quorum is present, a majority of a quorum carries the vote. and that doesn't work with what Kansas law is for for school boards. So, um we've had boards that have passed a budget in a 32 vote and we're like, "That's not a pass budget. You get to do that again." So, those are the those are the problems that we
104have. Um just keep in mind if if four of you show up to a meeting, I hope you're all um getting along on that particular night, right? um voting procedures. The main idea is that you all have to let people see how you vote or hear how you vote. Um abstensions in board voting are are counted as no votes. So that's kind of weird uh with how school boards work and that becomes an issue when we're dealing with conflicts of interest. So if any of you own a business or any of you might at some point contract with the district, keep in mind that you're better served by taking yourself completely out of the room when the vote happens because otherwise if you abstain from the vote, you're counted as voting no. Um, and there's
105a a statute in the state of Kansas that makes it a misdemeanor for a board member that has a legal conflict of interest because you have an interest in a contract, a financial interest in a contract from taking action on that contract, if that makes sense. So it's kind of just from a practice standpoint, we don't run into this very often. And typically when we have people have said, "I recuse myself and they'll step out." If I if they just note at the table that they are recusing themselves, but they actually have to step out. >> I still would. I really would. And then the minutes will reflect that the board member left the room and then it'll be a 6 vote and they're counted as not voting in the minutes. and minutes. Um, you
106know, there's no law that really addresses minutes and and so generally the minutes are just your story. We just recommend that they're in place to reflect the actions, the legal actions of the board. Um, the only thing that they really have to reflect or, you know, what you do and and the motions that you make and those types of things. And so your board clerk is is here doing that good work. We don't recommend as a common course of action that if a board member were to make a statement or a patron were to make a statement that that's put down specifically unless the whole board votes that it's documented and your policy will reflect that. So I took way longer than I was asked to talk about this. So what questions do you have?
107Uh it says on the conflict of interest that only the member can decide to declare >> if they have a conflict. >> Yes. >> And been around long enough to see that bridge several times. >> Yeah. And I would >> Yeah. I would recommend, you know, if somebody calls about this, um, I would often counsel, you know, another board member if possible to, you know, to counsel that board member about the possibility of taking themselves out of that vote. Um, sharing, you know, or having them call us. we'll provide them the same information hopefully that that you know we're telling that board member. Um and sometimes it's not necessarily a crime to take an action on on something like this, but maybe it's a violation of your nepotism policy or um maybe it's just it's
108one of those things that's more an ethical conflict than anything else. Um, there is case law in the state of Kansas that doesn't necessarily make it so if you had a spouse or family member or whatnot that was a teacher, let's say, um, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal for you to approve the negotiated agreement. for example, just because your spouse is a teacher, you don't necessarily have to take yourself out of that vote because it impacts a lot of other people and not just your spouse, right? Um, but if you were to acting in the vote to hire your spouse, that looks a little different. Um, so anyway, what other questions do you have? >> Okay. All right. Awesome. >> Awesome. Well, thank you all. Um, Dr. Vincent can share this with you and
109thank you for your time. I'm sorry I went long. No, no, perfect. It was useful and sure if there's other feedback or questions um channel those through and reach back out um as as topics come up because they do. This is a fluid work that we are charged with. >> Appreciate your time. >> Absolutely. Well, feel free to call if you need anything. And do you need >> Just leave it right there. >> All right. >> Okay. Well, um again, thank you for uh your training for us and I have down that we need on Monday, folks, for our next board meeting. So, on that um we'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you all.