2026-03-03 Work Session

001Mhm. >> Mhm. >> All right, good afternoon everyone. Good afternoon. We are calling our March 3rd work session to order. We're a little off, but hopefully folks have voted and if you have not voted, you got a little time. We will get started with our first item on the agenda, which is our North Carolina legislative update and our Board of Education short session legislative agenda. So, we will welcome Caitlin and Matt from Brubaker and Associates. And superintendents as we walk through a quick snippet of this. And so, I want to say before we get started, just to thank the superintendent and the vice chair for working on this legislative agenda. I told the former chair that this is a task that's delegated. Even what trying to do here, now I'm just going to delegate delegated

002over to our current vice chair. So, I'll kick it over to you all then we'll do some discussions around it. So, welcome. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We appreciate you guys coming and sharing this agenda with us. More than anything, we appreciate the engagement that you all have with the General Assembly keeping us up-to-date updated on legislative actions. And so, again, thank the vice chair for working with us and make sure that we bring forward an agenda that you all could discuss and give your feedback before we bring a final portion. So, they'll talk about this agenda and some other things that they see bubbling up in the General Assembly. So, Carol, what do you got? Hi there. Caitlin Rothacker and Matt Gross for any of those of you who aren't familiar with us. I feel

003like most of your faces are very familiar. Hope everybody's well. It's primary day. And I will say that because a lot of, you know, typically when we are giving you our general overview of what session's going to look like, we have a fairly good idea. This one is really truly determined on how today goes. So, you know, all I can tell you for certain is that we have an in our adjournment resolution that short session will begin in April, April 21st or 22nd. >> 22nd. 22nd. That is basically all I can tell you. Whether or not they come in and try to do maybe a quick like Medicaid budget before that cuz we're typically we're technically in long session still. And in that same adjournment resolution from last session, they allocated a few days each

004month where the General Assembly can come back in to do some work. That hasn't really occurred in recent months. So, I I don't really expect that that's going to happen. It probably would is more likely to happen at the beginning of short session if they were going to do some sort of quick, you know, Medicaid only budget. They could very well do a water budget. There could be no budget. So that is very dependent on what happens in the primaries today. As you all know, there is a big a very big primary at stake and that is President Pro Tem Berger's primary. That is a very tight one and that is all I can really say about that. Obviously the outcome of that is going to dictate how session goes forward, how the chambers you

005know will be working together and we will see. So I wish I could tell you a little bit more but I truly cannot until after today. So maybe the next time you see us we can give you a lot more detail on on what to expect in that regard. With that being said, because we aren't entirely sure what a budget looks like if there is one that obviously impacts what we've got on your agenda. We are very very hopeful that there will be but that remains to be seen. We have looked over this agenda. I was telling the superintendent you know when I saw your top three priorities that I'm very very encouraged. This is I want to give kudos to you guys you know pulling this together because this is a very strong concise

006agenda and I think that these these priorities mesh very well with what we anticipate being pushed and what we're going to see in a budget. Particularly with teacher pay compensation there's a ton of motivation to get that done. Um and then you're modernizing your special education funding formula. I know that there is some you have some counterparts in New Hanover and in the other areas that are also on board with this same initiative and they have been very noisy to some of our leadership, especially one of our big chairs, Mike Lee. I know that they're interested in doing this too. So there is some very natural and organic champions in the legislature in leadership, budget chairs that are not going to you know have some reason and be motivated already kind of organically to to

007go after some of these initiatives. Um so, I could just kind of say that blanketly as an intro and just general observations and kind of what to expect with session coming up. Um I would say with that kind of dates to keep in mind, um April 15th is the drafting deadline for new initiatives. So, anything that we want to if we're filing something new, uh we need to get that in and kind of be ready to do that with language and have that all buttoned up about April 15th, which is before short session starts with that April 22nd date. Um and then kind of the less rigid, but the general understanding is that about April 30th is when you want your budget request buttoned up and and anything, you know, in writing or or something

008like that to have to drafting for things that we want to go into the budget. Um so, just kind of dates to keep in mind. Anything you want to add on general overview? I would just note for that April 13th day, or April 15th day, rather, that is for any new bill cuz it's a short session, it's a budget adjustment session, it has to have some appropriation or some fee, something that attaches to money to be eligible. That's something we often see in the short session is you can take bills that are no longer needed and rewrite them to do whatever, and that date's no That's not a deadline for that. So, that's an easier way to move things in the short session. Well, I'll see you see a lot of omnibus bills come together

009in the latter half of short session where language gets tossed into. Okay. I'll kind of kick it to any questions or where do you want me to go next? So, I'll I'll just say I know that our long session agenda, we have not conceded that. Um that's more we'll tackle that once they go into a longer session, but taking some of the pieces that was off this long session, condensing it to those is where we've been advised that we can see some traction and have some great movement towards that. And again, I quote Dr. Eing all the time. It's not our wish list, it's not a Christmas list, it's our website of less. Um and it's finding ways to get what we can get done with the General Assembly that we have versus the General

010Assembly that we want. So, I I will throw that out and um uh last thing before I kick it over for questions is that we will be moving on this forward with a quick timeline. Um the goal is to have this passed next board meeting so we can then start the process. I know we want to have some meetings with the leadership, uh some of the reg delegation folks around special education before the short session kicks off so they can at least begin to see what the needs are, how we can advocate so they're having that visual image, the website of agenda and our lobbyists talking about this to help paint the picture. So, the 17th is when we will vote on these three priorities and then we will go from there. So, Vice Chair,

011did you have any comments that you wanted to make? Um just briefly, this the focus was really just on the short session and identifying a few things. If I was doing something for the long session, it would be more robust and when we do that, what I would like to do for that process if I'm in charge of it again is get everyone's feedback coming in and going in before we even develop a doc- a document like we can work off some things. See what See if they actually pass a budget this year, that sort of thing, and we get anything. Um and go That would be the process going forward. This uh Dr. Taylor and I worked on last week for, you know, I just a short amount of time to kind of get

012some language and some focus. But I know some people will, you know, have other things and things I agree with that we did not put on here. That is a great point um and I'm glad that you mentioned that. Sometimes I think we take for granted that everybody fully understands and lives in the world of long session, short session. Obviously, long session is each each session technically is a biennium. So, we've got two year sessions and the first year is the long session, second year is the short session. And so, they both still kind of play off of one another. The long session is always more a lot more wide open and that's, you know, you kind of bring anything. Um short session is a whole lot more you know, they're narrowly tailored. Over the

013years, it's kind of opened up and become a little bit broader. Um but it is like Matt said, budget related. So, it's typically budget tweaks for the budget that would have been passed um the prior year. And recent years, it's been trying to pass any kind of budget um or smaller budgets. And for policy purposes, that scope is is narrowly tailored down to whatever has crossed over from one chamber to the other in the long session. So, that knocks out a whole bunch of unless if you're presenting something new, it has some sort of fee or if it affects the the budget, then you can bring a new initiative. Um so, I say that to say kudos to your point because it is, you know, it to have something that is more narrow in scope

014um and you're picking things that are a lot more likely to um have some traction and be successful, which is ideal. That is the goal. Do you agree? Thank you. Um so, I I don't envy Chair Swanson or Vice Chair Hershey having to navigate this environment. I've never seen anything like where we are today. And so, I just have to ask you in terms of where the legislature is in its cycle. So, if it's the short session, well, if I should say it's the second year of the biennium, but the long session didn't adjourn and a budget was not adopted in the long session, can you just and and and maybe I hear it, but I just I just need to hear it again. What the process will be when they do come back? Will

015there be passage of a budget from last year? Will they just pass a new budget that's only, you know, June or like July 1 going forward? And if so, what happens for the rest of the months of this year? Is there anything left in the last year of the the first year of the biennium that needs to get done, or do they just sort of erase it and go straight to year two? Those are all very great and reasonable questions, for which we don't have answers that we wouldn't just be inventing. I think we are in a bit of an unprecedented place. And I think this is part of what we're seeing what happens tonight and how that shakes out. It's going to impact what happens going forward. Because we operate So, they they passed

016a law almost a decade ago that put us under continual Continuing resolution. So, the state budget is probably funded at about, I don't know, 75-80%. So, you have a lot of functions that are just rolling. It continues to fund those critical recurring dollars. No new money, but it's whatever the recurring funds were from the prior year. So, the budget that it it maintains those levels. Yeah, it's sort of like what could they do? And all options are on the table. They They could come back and pass something that goes retro through part of the current year we're in for certain for certain things that they prioritize. They could mainly focus on passing something that looks forward to the second half of the biennium. They could come in and if they can't come up to a

017big deal, they'll turn to the world of passing several small packages that again look look back or look forward. I would venture to guess most everything will probably be looking forward, not a lot looking back, but it's all speculation at this stage. I think they the leaders have really decided, "Let's get through the primary, and then we're going to sit down and come up with a plan." So, that's what I'm saying it's re- speculation at this point, but it's all possible. >> From a practical standpoint, when they come back, they really only have post primaries, they really only have about about a month, you know, realistically to come together and and do something for the end of the long session. They might come in for a few little things. I don't see a whole lot

018of, you know, profound work getting done during that time. I think that you're probably more likely to see other than some interim kind of committee work, I think you're going to probably see a lot of behind the doors ramping up um for the short session. So, you'll see them come in, do an adjournment, and then we'll have a couple day break probably, and then they will come in for short session. The other thing just just to make it more complex, um in recent years they've kind of had the pattern of pre-conferencing the budget as they call it. So, instead of going through the process where you see a Senate budget and debate it, take it to the House, debate it, and then go to a conference committee, and as we've typically seen in the long

019session and the short sessions of late, they've just pre-negotiated that, and you what you sees what you gets, no up or down vote. But again, we've never been to this place where they've gone into a short without having passed something in the long, so Well, let's see. They do a conference of budget. I today I couldn't tell you what path they're going to take. I can tell you what path they've been taking in the short session, but not in this in these circumstances. So, it's it's been a a tricky time to figure out exactly what the go forward looks like. Just very brief follow-up. So, what I guess what I'm trying to win my mind is there's one argument that the legislature could just continue on with their continuation budget, and then start fresh with

020the short with the short session adjusted budget, right? >> Yeah. But there's an awful lot of things that go into the House and Senate budget packages in the long session, special provisions and such, which may not even be short session eligible on their own. Would they have to be introduced individually, separately, and then somehow worked into the new budget, or would there be any reason to try to save or salvage any of those? >> Well, because it's those provisions are part of it's all one bill, technically. Because that bill has fees and provisions that affect the budget, it makes the whole vehicle eligible, so you can throw in whatever you want. >> and and a giggle is a conference report that's eligible, too. That's exactly right. If they take that budget vehicle from the long

021session, anything in there is fair game. Yeah. So, a conference report, which you guys if if anybody's not familiar, you might need me to explain, I'm happy to do that. Um but it's still just a a bill that is the the result of a bill passing through one chamber, the other chamber changes it, so then it turns into a conference report because that conference committee both sides have to come together and figure out, you know, all of their differences. That That continues to be a conference report, and that specific type of bill is automatically eligible, so yeah. That's why a lot of times you'll see those special provisions and everything kind of being People are trying to throw everything into the budget. They want, you know, a prayer of getting something through in the short

022session. Um it's always a shoe-in if it if it goes in the budget. Okay. And therefore, if that's the vehicle that comes out for an up or down vote, it doesn't go back through with a process where you can make amendments on the floor. That's right. That's exactly right. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Of course. Any other questions? Miss Adams. Thank you. Um I would like for us to include voucher language in this, and the voucher language that I'm proposing comes from the top, the very intro of the 2025 long session um legislative agenda, and it the Senate's reads, "The Wake County Board of Education also calls upon the North Carolina General Assembly to prioritize public school dollars to fully fund public schools, not private school vouchers." It's directly related to funding. It

023is directly related to the budget. Um so, it would be applicable to the short session and Wake County private schools got $56 million in 24-25. I'd say if that went to Wake County public schools, that would be a benefit to our district. Thank you. Any other? And I'm not I'm I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, if I may. Sure. Um, it could go in the top paragraph of this. two about that language. I Sure. I just wanted to add that I don't have a preference of where it goes. That's all I wanted to say. Got you. Thank you. And Mr. Chair, I will say because we're not going to take this up until our next meeting, we can do a little bit of divining after we see what the legislative results are. And that could influence, you

024know, where we would put that in the bill. So, I don't know if we have to decide it today, but I think we'll have a really good idea about uh how to include it. I agree and I think I would I'm trying to get a point of I think Yeah, I second cuz you and I worked on that language last year. Um, where if we were to just say the Wake County Board of Education calls on the North Carolina General Assembly to prioritize public school dollars to fully fund public schools. Mhm. I think that's also uh depending on what the primary results look like. I might also say the same thing without poking the bear and getting bit in the process. So, Mr. Chair, what the Vice Chair and I can do is after the

025elections, we can kind of see where we think things may land and we'll, you know, take any feedback that's given today and then we'll fashion that and and certainly share that with board members so they can have an opportunity to look at it before we come back to the 17th meeting. Cuz I I think there's interest in talking about it. And if you guys have, you know, if you want specific feedback, we're always happy to come back. As I said, you think it looks very different regardless on the other side of today and how we're thinking about this, whether that be that we have more certainty and we can give you better advice or that things look very different. Um So, I would say if you do in the meantime if you have you want

026some feedback after today, please feel free to filter through chair through the superintendent and we will provide that feedback for you and are happy to come back in to get into a more robust discussion about you know, the implications of what you guys decide on. That's right. Um thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a quick question in reference to what we were just speaking of about vouchers. Are you in any position to tell us what other districts are looking like across the state with unification around that or cuz my point and my intention of asking is one as Chair Swanson has said, poking the bear and knowing what wars we can win and not win. >> Mhm. Um but finding where is the unification of that that you're seeing across the state and how is that

027really impacting? I I will be frank at first blush, I'm probably not in a position to lay that on a district level. I'd have to do a little surveying and probably lean a little bit back on you guys and see kind of what you're hearing from your counterparts. In the legislative world and government affairs world, we haven't really been That's not something we hear heard a lot of chatter of that there is a lot of talk or intentions to do that in a you know, significant way where we're hearing that multiple districts are are thinking of moving forward. That could also just be because of our political dynamics right now and not really wanting to speak on that too much. Um but yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. So so Ms. Rice, uh conversations

028that we've had in the large 12 districts as well as our recent uh districts that are talking about legislative agendas are coalescing around uh the top two that we have in terms of teacher compensation and special education. And so I've seen those clearly uh in every legislative conversation with other districts. I would say that's probably about 25 or so districts uh including our recent and the large 12. And so you will probably see the same kind of language in uh in legislative agendas across the state. Um what we have in terms of uh the school nutrition piece, that's more similar to Wake County, but that is where everybody is is coalesced around those two. We see uh as they've seen uh what we believe is movement in the General Assembly on these two topics. And

029so um we're also working with DPI about how we can craft language around the special education piece. Part of that is uh there's a difference between districts in terms of asking for a percentage increase versus asking for a percentage audit increase based on high need students. And so there's a difference in terms of what may come to uh school districts. Whereas a percentage increase versus high need students, we're going to have the majority of those. So we want to make sure that um as districts, uh we have the right kind of conversation about how that may come out. But that's kind of what we believe is are the two that have a real chance of coming out. Uh teacher compensation and special education funding, and that's what we've seen across most districts. I will comment.

030Um so perhaps um it seems like it's possibly safe to say around getting our students not to flee from public schools, that maybe we may need to think of more robust ways to keep the students that are in our communities in our schools and continue to adopt better policies that are strongly aligned with parent partnerships and being a little bit more inclusive so that they won't be so quick to run to about your program. That's my comment. Dr. Joe or Ms. Courtney, do you all have comments? Dr. Um yeah, thank you. Um I I think I mean it's already in that the first paragraph is already in the language about, you know, um that we are mandated to serve all enrolled children regardless of income, health, or ability, but I think, you know, that the

031special education piece is is really a very vital piece of the justification to prioritize public education funding. Um because realistically, you know, other other options are not providing that kind of education to that population. So, yeah, I mean that we need to give our kiddos with special needs the education that they need. So, that number one reason for for them to support public education. Agreed. Dr. Joe or Ms. Courtney, do you all have any I know. All right. Well, I think we have some great marching orders to move forward and we'll be in touch with some revisions to send over and between it you all have any other revisions, please make sure you get those over to us so we can incorporate them to the best of our ability. Um and we will vote on

032this on next Tuesday, well, the 17th, which is 2 weeks from today. 5:10. So, Ms. Chair, last thing I'll add is that we've had conversations about uh types of meetings that we want to have when the short session starts. And so uh at the behest of the chair, we'll be reaching out and and creating that team and identifying uh individual angles of uh representatives uh to talk with uh as we go into the short session. President pro tem, that we pass this first so we can then have those productive conversations cuz I don't want to meet with them without having this legislative agenda taken care of because we have a lot of work ahead of us. So, thank you. I should also um just add so you can be on the lookout for that. We

033push out an update, a pretty comprehensive update of the results and kind of implications for that. So, depending on if it wraps, you know, before midnight or things are dragged out for a few days could dictate when we get all of the information pushed out. Um but we will have a report sent out think two of you um whoever I might need to change that around a little bit, but I know you were um the primary contact we get to two of the recipients on there. So, if you guys want to share it with your uh words, pretty straightforward report, but it'll be something nice for you guys to have at your fingertips right away. Um so, you can be on the lookout for that. And then there's one thing to keep in mind, the

034threshold with which a candidate can request a recount is 1%. So, it's just a thing to keep keep an eye on tonight cuz that could also drag out how long it takes to get certified depending on how many races are in that 1% threshold. And how close they are frankly without my personal experience is usually going to be unless than 100 votes for it to make a difference. Right. Yeah. But in areas where you have 12,000-13,000 voters, it's not outside the realm of It's a reasonable Yeah, reasonable possibility. Yeah. I know I've spoken with Caitlin and and Matt about this that they're after the election, they will be drafting a uh legislative uh PowerPoint presentation that you all can take back to your BACs versus having the two of them come to nine different BACs

035that will be a teachable document that they can that will be shared out as soon as we get through this primary as a way to engage your constituents around the work ahead of us. And if there are certain things that are unique to your constituency, we're we're happy to chat with you about that or you know, add modify or add to to suit your needs. Thank you all. Looking forward to getting some things passed. Thank you. Good luck with the rest of your afternoon. Thank you. All right, so now we will move to our public engagement plans for the 2027-2028 enrollment plan. So Um so Mr. Corazon, Mr. William welcome. Okay. Um we don't want to keep you long on this topic. It's just It's time to start thinking about the 2027-2028 enrollment plan. So

036thank you for this opportunity to provide a quick update. Um so today we're really just want to highlight how what we've heard from previous efforts is impacting how we're going to do our public engagement differently this go around um in addition to outline the process and a projected timeline for the overall process so we can get your thoughts on that before we formalize that. Uh so just to jump in, as you all may know, this is my favorite website of all time. Um so we have already started to update it with some of our new information and we will continue to do so throughout the planning process. As a reminder, it's a one-stop shop for anybody in the community, families as well, if they're interested in learning more about all of the elements that go

037into the enrollment planning process. It's all curated here and cross-linked from other sources right here on this one page. And we thank our communications department for all of the effort and for letting us have this special day. Um so just as also a reminder, aligns with the strategic plan particularly the public engagement elements with our family and community engagement strategies, particularly aims six and 12 regarding our regarding our district communication structure and our community engagement efforts. The rest of the planning process obviously aligns with several of our operational efficiency goals but that's not the point of today. Um, so we also have our policy 4150 just as a friendly reminder it contains the four pillars of student achievement, stability, proximity, and operational efficiency. So as we do engage the public in conversations about how future

038enrollment plans may impact them, we do make sure that we talk about these four core areas. And again as a friendly reminder they have very prescriptive definitions in policy that may or may not match a let's say dictionary definition that someone might be more familiar with for these terms. So we do make sure that we share this information as well. We still have our informative video up on the website if anybody would like to watch uh that video to learn more about this particular policy. We've gone over this for the last couple of years our sort of six-step process. I was trying to figure out a way to have the loop come back around and restart it. It gets real ugly every time I try to do that but we are still technically working on

039step six of last year's plan while we're initiating step four of this year's plan. So we'll kind of talk through that a little bit later but we just want the community and for you to be reminded everything really kicks off with that forecast that you'll receive um at the facilities committee meeting next week. So really why we're here today is to talk about lessons learned. What we've heard particularly over the last several cycles is that our families and community members want to participate before recommendations are made. They want to be able to have multiple opportunities to do that as well as methods of providing that feedback again before recommendations are made. We appreciate that and that actually helps the planning team if we have these conversations before drafts are released because they inform the draft-making

040process. They also appreciate having their unique perspectives weighed and considered during this process. As much as we don't always um meet eye-to-eye, if you will, uh family or community member might ask for a particular thing that the district isn't in a position to be able to move forward with, we can at least understand that perspective and figure out what supports we can put in the middle to bridge that gap. And one thing that um came up a little bit more prevalent in last year's process is that the the one invitation seems to fall a little flat. They'd like more frequent reminders about when things are coming, so we're going to uh change our processes this year in terms of making sure that we're not just using community messages, we're using our principals, we're using our

041community partners, and that we're also giving just-in-time notifications in addition to those please-put-this-in-your-calendar type um invitations. So, we are going to change our protocol a little bit to engage more frequently when we're inviting people to participate. But I'm I'm getting ahead of myself. So, how are we responding to these concerns? So, for the early and the before, as a reminder, particularly with respect to new schools or major shifts in an area, we do try to go out into those communities a minimum of 2 years prior to them being including included in an enrollment plan. Um as you may be aware, Moore Square High School is the one new school that is scheduled to open in the 2027-28 cycle. So, we've already been out there and once last year, we'll go out again this year, and

042we'll have additional um opportunities for engagement this year since it's a little bit closer. That 2-years-out time period is helpful, but people really participate the year before. So, we make sure we have multiple opportunities in that 1 year prior. We also um we'll make sure that we have the live feedback opportunities both in person and virtually. We've not done that in this phase before. Usually, if we have an in-person session for a new school, we kind of count that as it, and then we move forward maybe with a virtual general session as an overview. This year, we're going to double up. So, we're going to have a live in-person session regarding Marshall High School, a live virtual session specifically regarding Marshall High School maybe 2 3 weeks later. So, if someone couldn't join us for

043the in-person session, they would still have that opportunity in addition to our having translation services available at both types of sessions. We will continue to have our asynchronous feedback opportunities as well. As you know, we rely heavily in our department on ThoughtExchange, but we'll also make sure that we guide people to any type of opportunity for sharing information with us. The one benefit of using ThoughtExchange and the assignment planning not one the one but a benefit of using ThoughtExchange and the assignment planning website that's hosted on the district website is both of those can be translated into any language that the participant prefers to use. And so, that really increases access for our multilingual families. Another way that we're responding um in terms of informed and invited, I sort of let this one out of

044the bag early. Not only will we continue to use our website and our community messages, that's our prime target for getting messages out to our community at the district level, we will also be doing direct messaging to the families that are in the impact areas to specifically give them targeted invitations to very specific topic conversations, and we will be partnering with our principals to make sure that they're aware hey, some students in your area might be impacted. So, here's some information you can have in your toolkit to maybe put in your principal messaging or to answer questions that come to you. We want our front line to have the information they need to support the process. We also will continue to engage our community partners. We have our new newsletter this fluid I'm going to

045forget the name of it, but it's our partner partner newsletter. Our community partners newsletter will continue to leverage that. We were able to do it for the very first time last year. So, this time we're looking forward to using it more frequently. And um Superintendent Taylor, anything we can do with your different advisory boards to get messages out, we will also um take advantage of those opportunities as well. It won't happen until the fall, but we did get a lot of positive feedback about that specialized open house that we have. Once we get sort of in draft phase, very well received, we will continue that process um in the fall as well to make sure that people are informed about what's happening as well as feeling invited to the table to be part of the

046conversation. So, with that, that just kind of rides us into our timeline. As I mentioned, this year's a little bit unique um with our transitions Infinite Campus, a lot of our reporting timelines got pushed beyond what our historical patterns have been just as we're learning our new system and the configurations and making sure all of the data is accurate. So, the annual forecast, which is usually delivered to you in February, is coming to you in March. We wanted to make sure it was accurate and valid. Um so, a lot of the steps one and two were usually completed before I sit here and like and talk with you, but we're sort of doing them all in tandem. So, between now and uh April, almost everything in those orange box that those first three orange boxes

047will be complete. I know you're talking about the capital improvement plan a little bit more today. Um and so, we'll just we'll pick back up when I see you again later in the process. So, public engagement is the first step within phase four. And so, that obviously that's what we're doing now. And again, as a reminder, the purpose is to capture thoughts and ideas that support the development of the plan. And I can't reinforce that enough. It's to support the development of the plan, not to react to a draft that's been proposed. So, it's really to make sure we're getting information ahead of time so the planning team can think about unique community perspectives prior to drafting any recommendations. As far as the timeline goes, this one's going to be a little weak in terms

048of details because we do kind of keep a few of the dates private because they're in-person sessions with 75 person seats. So, we have a targeted group of families that we invite to those sessions because of those space limitations. But, the virtual sessions, we will publicly post all of those dates and have those links available on our website as well. We'll put them in our community messages. We'll put them in our partner messages. And, we'll make sure our principals have them as well. We are going to start next week will be our first session. Um and so, I can share some information with you offline about that. But, we just we can't have those be publicly announced because we just don't have the ability to support an open call to those types of sessions. Uh

049but, we will make sure you get all the feedback from this. We'll continue to use our online forums. Um you may recall we frequently use focus groups. We will continue to lean into that. In fact, our focus group volunteer form is already up on the assignment planning page. I noticed that about five or six people have already submitted since January, which is sort of the new cycle. So, um anybody who wants to put their names in there, we will add them to the list we already have. We never take you off. Once you say you're going to help, we always will invite you to participate in the conversation. Uh but, these focus groups are really to have more detailed conversations or maybe even AI-supported interviews to get deeper into certain topics versus an individual statement.

050And, we hear that a lot and I'm sure you have as well. An individual thought, sticky note if you will, seems sometimes to pale into comparison to being able to have a real dialogue about a particular topic. So, we want to have both of those opportunities available. Um and again, I told you about the space constraints. So, this is our proposed timeline for this year's planning cycle. It follows the pattern that we did last year, which was very well received by the community. It also gives us plenty of time to operationalize changes around that Thanksgiving holiday period. I'm just not sure if you're maintaining your normal first and third as we get deeper into the year. So, some of those will be subject to change. But, if we were to follow the pattern from last

051year, the goal would be to come back and see you in May to have an initial conversation about what should be included in this year's plan and then we can pivot if you come up with something that staff hasn't thought of, we can add additional information sessions and more outreach to talk about those additional topics. Um by June we should have the majority of our public engagement from the spring time wrapped up so we can come see you in either June or July. I know June gets tight with graduation schedules um and maybe perhaps the short session information that I just heard so I'm not sure what your board's schedules and timeline will look like but we can come to you in either of those months to give you a report on what we've heard

052so far. And then that way by September 1st we're ready to come to you and provide an initial draft along with any additional feedback we may have collected throughout the summer. We can then come to you in October. As you'll recall we've added that as a six-week break instead of a four-week break. That gives us the time to build in that open house which has been again very well received over the last couple of years and I think it's critical to getting some additional information for you. We also upped our public hearing schedule to have it at that same October meeting. That way there's plenty of time for you and staff to respond to anything that's collected during the public hearing. Um and that I thought was very well received last year as well. That

053was a new thing that we did last year in response to feedback from a prior year that if you're having a public hearing in November isn't it too close to when the final draft is going to be shared with the board for vote? So we wanted to provide that space and time. We will continue with our public engagement summary report that coincides with this process so you'll have that document that'll be updated throughout. You'll get your first copy of it in June. Before we proceed with this, I know there are timelines there. I would just recommend that we utilize that June uh cuz I know we're in conversations to do a July retreat which will probably be a live work session. No work session just a during my Retreat work. Retreat work is not the

054So I would just recommend the June. Okay, perfect. So, I'll work with Ms. Allen to figure out which of the two meetings would be the best for a work session touch point. Okay. I don't want you all to get too far deep in there. And then the November timeline, that gets us well in advance of the Thanksgiving holiday. And just as a reminder, um just for my staff here, if we approve it on the Tuesday before the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of Thanksgiving, it makes it very difficult for us to get timely information to families. They end up waiting a couple of extra days cuz we just don't have a full staff and technology team during And that's no dig, it's just the way the holiday works. So, if we can get it approved the week

055prior, then that gives us that whole Monday through Friday to get things buttoned up so we can go ahead and let families start participating in stability transfers as the holiday is progressing and give them a few extra days on the end so that everyone gets their information complete before we break for the winter break. Um and so that has been very, very well received the last 3 years that we've done that. So, I would just appreciate if we can continue to do that prior to the Thanksgiving that full week. But we also are able to change as is needed by the board. Other than that, again, quick touch point. Can I just add something real quick? I just I want to give a huge kudos to Susan and her team because they do a tremendous

056job with this process, as you know. Um and it's all during a time that's really um high traffic for their office. You know, you're just coming out of the window opening yesterday. The magnet window opened and closed, and now you have the transfer window, and many of you see a lot of those appeals. And so, I just want to really give them, you know, a kudos because not only does this work happen during the day, you're dealing with parent phone calls. Um they're also spending evenings doing these outreach sessions. So, thank you for the time that they put in. Absolutely. I would definitely echo that as well. And so, I see some hands. Um we'll start with Ms. Porter on this side first. Ms. Porter. Um I just want to echo what um, Mr. Carrizales

057just said, but I also want to say, you and your team have done an exceptional job of providing like thoughtful feedback. Not only that, but being truly dedicated to continuous improvement around getting public the public engaged in this process. Noticing when you need to change things and just bringing it to us in a transparent way. Like we're seeing that we fell short on this, so we're having to change it so that we are engaging more families. So, I just wanted to comment on that and how how appreciative that is to me and to me it sets the bar on how we should be engaging families thoughtfully and genuinely. Thank you. Um, Dr. Jordan. Um, thank you very much for doing this. I have a couple questions just cuz I'm haven't been through this before. Do

058you break down the feedback by district by like our districts? We break it down by the natural regions within the district cuz sometimes your districts aren't exactly aligned with like the feeder patterns. >> Right. But you might you might have the elementary school and you have the middle school and someone else has the high school. So, we try to do it based on the communities. So, you'll notice that we use the area superintendent language as our sort of divisions. But yes, we'll collect it on the front end families will be able to tell us what region they live in. And tell us if they're eastern, if they're northwestern, if they're northeastern, central, etc. We can also look at the data as a whole, but we can also look at it in the community. Yes, cuz

059that's very important to us is to recognize that some things are district level conversations, but some things are community specific. Yeah. Can I ask a question? Um, and what kind of education do you try to do with families before the hearings and things like that to try to Like I'm I'm just trying to think about how we could get even more useful feedback by if parents knew, you know, why we make the decisions we make and and you know and what limitations we're facing, then they wouldn't we wouldn't get, you know, 100 comments that tell us to do something there's no way we could possibly do. I'll send you a copy of some of the packets that we or slide decks that we've used in our in-person sessions. That's exactly what the in-person and virtual

060sessions are for. They really start as an education and informative element. Information that we'll be sharing with you along the way is what we share with them. Here's what the forecast says. Here's where the growth is happening throughout the district. Here are schools that are already crowded. Here are schools that are capped. Here are the schools that are being built. Here are the schools that are being renovated. Yet, you still have a big giant fat blue arrow on your side of the map with not enough schools coming until 2030. So, let's have a conversation about how we can support you while we wait for your new constructions to come. Or, hey, you're stabilizing. It looks like the growth maps are showing that there's not a lot of new growth. We've kind of built out, for

061you know, lack of a better term. So, how what's important to your community from a student assignment perspective now that we're not worried about opening a new school, but we've kind of the caught up It's not even caught up. It's like now we can go, "Oh, wait, when we did that, we didn't align the feeder patterns. Oh, wait, when we did that, we left a multi-track year-round school that's not really full anymore. Can we come to that area even despite the fact that there's not a new school coming and see what the community needs from an assignment perspective?" So, yes, that's the entire purpose of this time period is to get that level-set understanding. We even have an informative video that's on the website that's actually been fully tran- not transcribed, but it's delivered in

062Spanish as well that explains the planning process. So, that's what that assignment planning page is for is to drop all those things, but more importantly, that's why we go to the community is to start with that and then say, "Okay, now knowing that and knowing you do or don't have a new school or you do or don't have growth, what what do we need to know about your community as we're thinking about our plan? And some of the information we collect this year we won't use till 2028-2029 or 2029-2030 or 2030, but we don't let that stop us from asking the question and taking the feedback. I'll be happy to get you some information from previous sessions so you can see what they're getting. >> I appreciate it. That's all as far as the outcome

063of this session. Thank you, um, chair. Um, echo, you know, I I think that your team is great. So, don't want to let that go without being said. Um, but before I even ask a question, I want to make sure I have clarity of thought of like where we are to even ask a question. So, today really was about sharing some steps of where we're going moving into it but not necessarily diving into the student assignment piece today. I think if we are looking at the other timeline, I think that you showed that we'll come back and discuss that, which means we have time as a board to formulate our questions specifically around student assignment and then share it. Is that Yeah, May will be when we have that conversation. Okay, perfect. That's what I

064thought that I was hearing. I wanted to clarify that. And then so therefore I'm not going to ask you any of these questions that I have right now, okay? Um, because I do and then the last thing that, um, I would like to say as well, I would I would love, um, that same piece that you're sharing about sharing with Miss Joe, if I could have some of those snippets as well so that I can share with my talking with team Rice because I get these types of questions all the time and I don't always have the answer and I need you to give me the answer. Happy to do so. Thank you. That's it. Thanks. I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly. The Morse Hill High School is the only

065new school that will open for 2027-2028. Okay. That was it cuz it's not in here. No. And I know we're not sharing specifics, but I thought because that's Yep. I thought that that It'll be a key factor in recommendations, but obviously when we come in May there are other areas that we need to work on despite not having a new school coming to you. Okay. >> Right. That will most definitely have the schools out in Mr. Haggerty especially those high schools. Green Hope, Panther Creek, Green Level can definitely use some relief with Morrisville High School coming online. So. And you've been having these conversations for a couple years now. So they're anticipating it. So it's it's good that we've already started this feedback process. And to piggyback on that, just as a public service announcement,

066just in case people are paying attention, that also generally will motivate some feeder pattern adjustments as well. So sometimes just because it's a high school is opening doesn't mean we won't also come with recommendations at the middle or even elementary level to support community. You were very supportive in that process that we did in the Holly Springs area and the Fuquay-Varina area last year as we were opening schools, you know, in a new area saying, "Hey, let's just We've heard from the community. Just get it done. Don't keep coming back and chipping away. If we're going to have feeder pattern alignments, let's try to get those done as soon as possible versus I think I've seen Mr. Haggerty getting being reassigned every year for the last 5 years is kind of where what my brain

067is thinking. Just one final word since we're talking about making different changes we can make. I just need to also ask the question with this feedback that I may have for May, is it safe to say that I can include feedback about where some of our current schools are right now in the distance in which they're still having to travel to put that in there for consideration and hope Okay, great. And hopefully for some changes my community is um requesting for those to be some kind of deep considerations as they have uh been fair with compromising for 50 years and being shifted so far away outside of your communities. Traditionally, I know in the past there's also been 3 by 3s or small groups that uh Mr. Crosa and Ms. Pulliam will will How about

068your individual areas? >> Will convene. So therefore, those questions can be raised, deeper dives can be taken before, you know, the process goes. Therefore, those questions can be raised there and at the table for the public discussion. Be on the lookout for that information. That was days this month. Any other comments, questions? Hearing none, thank you both for the work that you all are doing and I'm not sure if Mr. Crosa will be staying at this floor for the next one. So we'll go into the Ligon Magnet Middle School project pathway recommendations. So that will be Taylor from the district. Crosa, Mr. Burnett. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh Chair Swartz and board members today, our administration will share details on the magnet of the Ligon Magnet Middle School project. Our goal today is to review

069these three options that have been considered and get feedback on what our constituents have shared with us. Uh we know that the Ligon building holds a significant importance to the community throughout weight of the community. Uh like so many communities across the South, uh school desegregation requires that we confront the stark realities of school inequities uh in the various forms that they had taken in form and from that forged a new school landscape for our children. Uh and as with most communities, the brunt of this new landscape development landed on black communities and on schools, uh black schools. Uh Ligon was no different. Uh and we know in those 50 years since 1971, we estimate that less than 10 of those black high schools now survive as comprehensive high schools in North Carolina. Uh now

070there are five of the large municipalities and that does not include Wake. Uh as we make decisions to address school needs that meet the modern requirements, uh we then look at an existing building and determine if the structure in its current conditions with renovations and within a specific budget will meet our needs. Uh do we consider options that may lead to the removal of the school? Such has been the case with Leggett. Uh the historical impact remains from the first students in the mid-50s up to our current students. Uh so many people, black, yellow, white, brown, uh uh have a history with the school and that is why those voices matter. Staff will share uh what we have heard from our constituents and their thoughts, questions, and their feedback. Uh staff will share options that

071have been reviewed and are available for board consideration. Uh one question that constituents asked, why only three options? And I've heard that uh from quite a few people. And I will say that is the right question to ask. Um but I also understand that when considering project options, there are going to be multiple perspectives that are considered. Uh and as we work through those options, they become a part of a reduced number of options that are available for consideration. And in this case, uh there were three options that came out of it. Uh constituents also asked questions about swing options and what considerations were made beyond a mobile village that you will see in two of the options that we will bring to you. Uh so staff can certainly provide feedback on geographic locations central

072to the current school and then swing space availability. Um in their reviews, there were there were also conversations with Saint Augustine's University and the feasibility and usability of buildings on their campus. The review did not lead to this as being a viable consideration. So, that is one of the questions that I was asked as to whether or not we had reached out to Saint Augustine's. We had done that. So, that is information that we have as well. We realize that listening to constituencies is key to projects such as these. While those steps were taken to gather feedback and have a conversation with alumni and families, I quickly realized we needed to do more and include as many people as possible. Members from the Ligon alumni were part of a select group to give feedback early

073on in this project development. However, I know that selecting members from the alumni group can be one set of responses when it's 20 people, but a different group of 20 people can provide a completely different feedback. So, with that, as you all know, I devoted time from November through the early part of February so as to provide additional listening and feedback opportunities. I continued to have heard from alumni, faculty, parents, and constituents from all over the community. And those sessions reaffirmed how important I know this issue is to our community. So, finally, I want to share that regardless of the option that the board chooses, I and others recognize the importance of magnifying the legacy of Ligon. We can't say that enough. With that, there is now a Ligon Legacy Committee consisting of over 20

074constituents and individuals from across the community ranging from alumni, faculty, students, and parents that will do the serious work uh developing uh the Wake County process uh worthy of a Leggett legacy, again, regardless of the option that's chose. Uh I want to reaffirm the committee will have identified goals and a timeline as we work through this project. Uh the good news is that we're not at the design stage for any of the options. And so, uh when committee members um that reached out about the Leggett um legacy committee, that was one of the questions that they had. So, I reassured them uh that there's going to be ample time for feedback from them. Uh and so, again, the goal is not to direct the design process, but to provide real and relevant feedback on how

075the legacy should be honored uh in whatever that chosen design is. So, with that, I will now turn uh to uh team for the remaining time to go through the presentation. So, by the end of the session today, we will have provided you all with some background information on the project options. We'll also talk about and share information about feedback received from the numerous public engagement activities. And then, at some point in time between now and the work uh the board meeting tonight, we'll be giving a uh superintendent and staff will be giving a recommendation. So, with our strategic plan, we wanted to show alignment with operational effectiveness aim 17 and and 18, which are always aligned with facilities and operations aim 17, uh continuous high-quality and equitable access to facilities and technology. Aim 18

076is prioritizing uh safety upgrades, and that includes facilities, um safety plans, and cybersecurity. Under family and community engagement, aim six is to provide clear, accessible, consistent information about opportunities available to families. Aim seven is to empower those same families and communities to partner with us and their children's learning and school environments. And then number 12, to build strong relationships among staff and families and other community organizations that we share resources and promote well-being. I'll provide some of the background information. Dr. Taylor talked a little bit about this. In 2021, there was a study conducted by third-party team that looked at the Leggett campus. At that time, there were other schools that were looked at as well. I think there were 54 total. Um the study was actually completed and produced in 2021, and Leggett was

077identified as having reached the end of its useful or serviceable life. And then following that assessment, the board approved a project with a budget of $141 million in order to bring the school up to current standards. There were preliminary visioning sessions that were held in May 2025 to identify some of the things and priorities as the design moved forward. And the architectural firm selected to do that work was LS3P, and they created three different construction proposals, which were shared with the facilities committee in December. These project options, first of all, number one was to renovate the existing building. That would have been a renovation of the building as it sits where it sits with students and staff moving to a temporary campus that would be proposed to be built on top of the existing ball

078field. Option number two would be to rebuild on existing location. It also would include the erection of a temporary mobile campus on the play field, and then the existing building would be demolished, and the new facility would be built back in that same location. And the third option was to build a new facility on the ball fields. That would not require the construction or erection of a mobile village. The new school would be built on the existing ball fields um on a level at least comparable to Martin Luther King Drive. And then once that school is built, uh project was completed, um the existing facility would be torn down and new ball fields would be built in that location. So, I'll give a little bit of detail about each of the options. Option one, again,

079to renovate the existing building. As you can see from the map, phase one would be to erect that mobile campus uh on the playing fields adjacent to MLK Boulevard. Uh that would be occupied and then the renovation work would be proposed to begin on the existing building. The timeline for this particular option, once the students were uh moved to the campus and the ball fields were restored, would be about 4 plus years. And the projected construction cost would be $102 million. Keep in mind, as we shared earlier, there's a total project budget of about 141 million. So, the construction costs are about 102 in this option. Additional costs are made up by such things as fees, permits, furniture, equipment, things like that. Option two would be to rebuild on the existing site. It too would

080be in phases with phase one building the same temporary mobile campus down adjacent to MLK Boulevard. Once the students move into that, the existing building would be demolished and a new building would be built in place. And then once that was completed, the mobile village would be taken off the campus and the ball fields would be rebuilt um on MLK Boulevard. That timeline was projected to be around 5 years or so and construction costs there would be estimated at 147 plus million dollars. And then option three would be to build a new facility on the ball field site. Site on phase one would be to build a new school on the existing ball fields and then down near MLK Boulevard. Phase two would be to demolish the existing school and phase three would be um

081a um installation of the ball field where the old school currently stands. This phase is estimated to take about 3 years or so with projected construction costs somewhere in the range of 121 million dollars. And with that, those are the options that were discussed. I would add that uh Dr. Taylor didn't mention to you all that we did have some conversations about swing space uh with St. Ald. I had conversations with him as recently as last week. Um and um as we went out and looked at that site and evaluated it from many different viewpoints, we just came to the conclusion that that would not work for this project. With that, um we want to share some information about the feedback from the public engagement and as Susan does this all the time and is

082well versed in it, um we engaged her to help us with this process. So, I'll turn I'm the consultant on this process. Um as Dr. Taylor mentioned in his opening remarks, it was really about expanding the voices for the essential partners for this process. And so, what was sort of taken on in that November to now time frame was some digital outreach in addition to information and listening sessions and they even went so far as to provide direct access to leadership via email and and I think even meetings in the parking lot. So, the digital outreach was to capture those community-wide priorities through interactive crowdsource feedback. The information and listening sessions allowed families, staff, and community members in separate sessions with separate emphasis and focus to learn about the construction proposals, as well as to,

083you know, walk up to the mic and and share their their specific comments. And then, of course, any emails or phone calls that were captured by district leadership was captured as well. Uh you want to kind of see by the numbers is kind of how I like to live. So, the the Lincoln project page has been established for a while. Um as of February 25th, it had um just under 2,000 views. I did check that the video that was created to support this project has had about 400 views. So, for a singular project, those those are not bad statistics. The thought exchange that was opened had 159 participants post 129 thoughts. There were two in-person community sessions with 35 speakers. So, this is where I have to pause. The to provide anonymity, no one was

084asked to sign in. So, there wasn't anybody kind of clicking to know how many people actually showed up at the event. So, the only measurable thing we have for these sessions was just how many volunteered to speak. So, there were 35 speakers across those two sessions that were targeted as community input sessions. The one that was labeled as a family session had 15 speakers. Again, this is a much smaller the number than who actually showed up to listen and hear and maybe even support speakers. Uh the family session also was branched over into a virtual option, and that one we can count participants. There were a total of 40 participants in that online session. The staff session that was held in person, again, way more than 11 people showed up, but 11 people did choose

085to speak and then provide comments. For those that were held in person, the team did an audio recording and then transcripted all of the remarks, and so that'll explain how we were able to use some AI support because we could take those transcripts and import them into a system to go through and analyze the comments. And then, the email submissions totaled 23 by the time we were asked to pull everything together. So, for the thought exchange itself, I know it's small, it's intended cuz this isn't the important stuff really. I mean some of it is like who participated, how they identify, but it's really getting to what individuals said. But you can see that at least 54% of respondents identified that they live in the central area, which would be somewhat near where Lincoln is

086located, it's in the central area. You also see higher numbers, maybe 19% in the northern Wake area, historic draw area for the magnet program for this school, so that makes sense, you know, if you're if you're looking at the numbers. Um as far as ethnicity, people are allowed to not respond and that's fine, so 29% indicated they preferred not to respond, but you can see the breakdown that there was a majority of white participants on this one, but at least by self-identification. There's no way to know if they prefer not to respond. Um and then as far as how they identified coming into the thought exchange, this is not an add up to 100, they can multi-select. So if I'm a parent and I have a student at the school, if I'm a community member

087and I'm also an alumni, um we added in those features. So you had 67% of respondents indicating they were a parent or custodian of a current student. So clearly this is a current um enrollment voice, if you will. Um none of the current students went on, which doesn't surprise us at the middle school level, families don't always encourage students to to participate in our online activities. 5% indicated that they were a current staff member, 19% indicated they were an alumni or former student. And I will be honest, from the remarks that were made, it is hard to tell if they are Lincoln High School alumni or Lincoln Magnet Middle School alumni, right? So there's a mixture of those two, so we have to be careful with how people are identifying as alumni because certainly they

088could represent 1982 to present. Um or they could represent that earlier time period when it became a high school in the region. Um and then 20% indicated they were community members, so didn't pick they and they might have double picked, right? But they did clearly say I'm a member of the community. Um within this thought exchange, it seemed by count the or and the themes that came up were educational excellence, minimizing disruption, having modern facilities, preserving the legacy of the school, and having the community involved in the process. The total number of comments coming in educational excellence was clearly the the front-runner in terms of total number of comments. But when we look at the star ratings, while it stays on top, minimizing disruption kind of equals it. Community involvement actually goes from being less

089numerous to middle importance, right, in terms of the rankings here. Um and then the modern facilities and preserving the legacy. So again, these tend to represent voices of current parents, um and those obviously that were um registering as alumni. The top three top thoughts that came out of this particular thought exchange was keeping the students on campus is important, maintaining opportunities for the current students, the magnet program should be preserved throughout the reser- renovation, and current and future students in their learning environment um with some add-ons up there. So, you'll see this as a regardless of which side the comments were coming on in terms of if they were in favor of a particular option or in favor of a particular perspective, everyone agreed that minimizing the disruptions for the current students was important. So,

090that's just something for you to take away is that regardless of where they fell on all of these topics. This is where I want to say at this point we took those transcripts and those emails, and we digitized them and loaded them into a separate part of the thought exchange software that's a powerful tool that we have access to called Discover, where we can now input data from other sources and have those same AI analytics applied to it. It won't be as robust cuz it's coming in sideways, so you're only going to see three themes, right, instead of four or five. But the three themes that came out of all of the in-person sessions, mostly hosted by Dr. Taylor and Mr. Strickland, and the virtual sessions, and the emails, and and all of that. So,

091none of this is the digital thought exchange. This is expressly the feedback collected from those live sessions. Um educational continuity had 50% of sort of the range of themes and this is in terms of participants mentioning it. So it's a slightly different analysis and assessment than we're used to. About 24% of participants focused on the magnet program and then 24% focused on the historical preservation. The participant groups that were identified by their voluntary admissions, you know, through the transcript evaluation was they were either staff, family, alumni, or community members. The perspective advice, so when we looked at the one so then we discreetly looked at them kind of to Mr. B's question from my other presentation, do we, you know, break these apart? So when the staff thoughts were analyzed individually, you could see across

092those three themes some representative comments and statements and that the primary concern was ensuring the healthy environment for teaching and learning emphasizing that space, modern facilities, and minimal disruption to classroom activities would be preferred. However, acknowledging that the traditions and the historic structures are important, so not necessarily weighing in on how to accomplish that, but acknowledging that those are important. When the families of current students participated, again you see some representative thoughts here. Their key concern was highlighting the importance of a stable learning environment for their students. Great value was placed on the robust magnet offerings, particularly the arts and specialized electives, while also expressing a range of opinions on preserving the school's historic elements. Here's where we start to see comments like legacy is important, but is legacy a building? Right? So people taking

093a particular stance on the conversation. And then when we get into alumni thoughts, again this is where it's a little bit difficult cuz it's hard to tell unless they've expressly said I am a graduate of Ligon High School in their statement, which I think we found one. Most people didn't expressly tell us which type of alumni they were, so that made this a little bit harder. So maybe in the future we can to check check it out. But you'll see some variations on preserving the history definitely gets illuminated here as well as making sure that we preserve the modern legacy of the Electors and so forth. So again, these are difficult to tease through and figure out what's the That's why we're here, right? Finding the right path forward. Community thoughts then, this is where

094people didn't specifically say they were a family member, didn't specifically say they were an alumni, but rather mentioned something about living in the area or being a member of the community. And here's where you start to see a little bit different about you see in the historical preservation very prescriptive comment about Ligon High School main building is preserved to honor the Southeast Raleigh black history. So you start to see some very specific comments about the importance from that perspective. Here you'll see a little bit about the student perspective, but you start to see Ligon's role beyond just student enrollment, right? You see that in that first statement here. So you start to see a slightly different lens on on the situation. So I kind of let the cat out of the bag on this one,

095but overall regardless if the focus and emphasis was on preserving the historical legacy or focusing on the future needs of the school, every participant or at least the vast majority of participants could agree that at least minimizing disruption to students should be taken into consideration. And so that's where the feedback has brought us and Dr. I don't know if you want to add more to it since you were physically at most of the sessions. I would like to thank you for your comments. With that I turn it back over to the rest of you. My consultancy is complete. So Mr. Chair, with that we can open it up for questions. We'll go from there. So I'll turn it back to you. Thank you. I'll I'll with Ms. Adams and then uh Mr. White. Mine's very

096brief. Mr. Mark, can you say Mr. Strickland, can you say more about why St. Aug won't work? Can you give any detail or Lots of reasons. So, we took a team out there. In fact, many of us went out there multiple times. We took a team out there at DNC, uh CMS, uh maintenance and operations, every superintendent went, the principal went, and we had other academic staff out there. Um we That's a big campus, but they don't have the the buildings and the classrooms that are aggregated like we would need to run a school. It's also a very large campus, and it was quickly evident that trying to transition from where the classroom and building was, at least the main one, the largest one on one end of the campus, all the way to the

097gym, all the way to the cafeteria, or to the other art spaces would just going to eat up a lot of time. And you know, we went there with high hopes that day, but after we made the assessment there, we just felt like we couldn't make it work. Let's go to Thank you. Um my question is about um You briefly stated that um I think one of the options um would not bring the building up to facilities to current facility standards. Can you say more about what our current facility standards? We um I may ask Mr. Shorter to jump in, but basically, out of the classrooms that are on campus right now, I think 75 to 80% of them, or Kathy may want to jump in, don't meet the current standards that we have for

098space standards. Not only are they small, so they're under the square footage that we would have for a middle school, they are shaped more than like a skinny rectangle, and it it it's not conducive to the learning spaces that we build nowadays. And so, while they wait to respond, I'll add to that as well that when we talk about modern standard that means that we construct a new building, these are going to be the requirements that DPI would have for the building. That doesn't mean that an existing building can't be used and be undersized. So that means you know, if you got classrooms that are there, you do renovations and there's a limit to what you can do based on there's a load-bearing wall and things of that nature. But when we talk about modern

099education standards, those are going to be guidelines and and information that's given out by the Department of Public Instruction is classroom size whether it's elementary, middle, and high school. So the current facility while it doesn't meet those new standards, it doesn't mean you can't have an educational program in the village. I do want to be clear about that. And so I'll let you all talk a little more about >> Catherine We got Do you want me to I'll get Um so we go when we start any project, we go through and we do a comparison of what the existing condition of the building is based off of our new space standards. So we have educational space standards that we follow for all of our schools when we do renovations. Um we also have educational specifications.

100And so what we do is we go and do that comparison. And what we found at Ligon is that much of the rooms are undersized. They're around 700 to 715, somewhere in there. And like Mr. Strickland was saying, they're very long gated. And so to have back in the you know, when we went to school, we all sat in rows and the teacher sat at the front of the room, which was fine. Today, we do a lot of collaborative learning. So we do a lot I mean the teacher has to be all around the room. And so what we try to do is create more of a square classroom instead of a long gated. And for us to try to get this to bring those classrooms up to standard, if we took a wall out,

101they would just get longer. They wouldn't get wider cuz we can't make them wider. They would just keep getting longer and longer. So, it's just not conducive of the way that they teach today. So, that was the reason why we went up and decided to go this route. Did you want to speak? The walls is the other challenge. So, it's they're they're just concrete blocks. You got structure sitting on that and then to to try to enlarge 30 classrooms would be very difficult challenge. And the building is long. And it's a magnet program. The building is long. Takes a long time to get from the front of the building to the end of the building. Yes. If I could add also um what we noted before was numerous exterior doors. So, from a security standpoint,

102that was an issue. Circulation was an issue too as far as trying to move about within the facility in a timely manner. And currently, they often go outside and come back in to avoid the congestion in the corridors. Also, ADA was a consideration. Where there are numerous areas where we really just don't have that access and that that affects bathrooms, that affects stairs, and generally circulation. Has the follow up been made? Um Glenn, I Mr. Corissa, I heard you say and it's a magnet program. Can you say more? Yeah. So, the magnet program obviously has additional educational opportunities for the students. So, sometimes the rooms need to be up fitted in a certain way so that they can accommodate more students in those electives or whatever type of elective it is. So, generally we want

103to make sure that we have that. The older buildings, it's tougher to upfit in that sense, so by providing a brand new building we can get it right from the start. Um question um Um looking at those pictures, obviously like there's the the the footprints of a building, whichever phase which whichever um option we we look at um looks smaller than what the the the footprint of the current building um so is there a goal square footage or like do we want do we are we reaching for the same comparable square footage in the building as what what we have now? Yes, so we follow the middle school space standards. We have a 936 capacity space standard that we follow. So we have what each classroom size is going to be, what the cafeteria size

104is going to be. So that is what the new building would be if that was the direct size. So it will be bigger. It will be bigger. Yes. 35,000 square feet bigger and three-story classroom wings, so that's why it looks smaller than the Yes. And I think just to add to the discussion that's been taking place with the land I mean with the the space I believe based on some conversation I've had with some of the alums back in that original class that the the land was already the school was already at a deficit with the amount of land that was already given, so that's why the school's footprint is not as necessarily big as some of our comprehensive middle schools. Um so that plays a factor into this. And I think that's a good

105point that I don't know what those standards were in 1954 and I doubt if anybody in this room knows. Uh but Mr. Chair, that's a good point that it is a 17-acre site. All right, so when we think about even building an elementary school, I think we got to generally start at around 24 to 27 acres. >> Yes. 27. All right. >> And and so we already know from that perspective um the space that's normally needed is not there. And so this design would take that into account. structural wise. That's it. I just wanted I didn't catch it. How many How many additional square feet would we 25,000 It's going to be around 200,000 square feet and I think it's currently at 160,000. I thought you said We're 35,000 under under sized right now. 35,000

106under sized. Okay. Sorry. Sure. I'm going to try to keep it very brief. Don't start with me today, y'all. I'm going to be good. I'm going to try to keep it down to three questions if that's okay and move as quickly as possible. I'm trying to get my notes here. So I'm looking at um Can staff kind of walk me through make sure I get frame my question right. Let me frame my question. Can staff kind of walk me through the extensiveness of the search um that was done for the temporary building space um or building location? I'm trying to get a better understanding. I've heard about Shaw, but I'm just curious if you can walk us through. I'm sorry, I was saying Augustine. My apologies. Ooh. So sorry. Um Got the HBCU space but

107just the um the one. Um but you know, I really wanted I really would love to hear you guys walk us through um what um how intense um extensive was your search um for looking for an alternative space um for the children because and um I can say this um I should have said this preface before my state my question um because the alternative learning space of course is just as important as the finished product. So, um I do want to acknowledge that and I know that's important, but I definitely want to know what was the extent uh the extension of your search. Can walk us through that piece very briefly. So, we'll start. You can go first and I'll talk. So, with any renovation, we first look to see if we can find a

108swing space site because that is the best way to do a renovation is to get the kids off the school campus. The challenges we have at the middle school is it's a large amount of students. I think Ligon may be about 1,000 at this point. And so, we just don't have swing space locations for 1,000 students. That are approximate. And approximate. That's exactly right. So, then our next step is we always look to see if we can flip a site because like we we don't want to disturb. We want the least disturbance as we can for our students. If we don't flip the site, again, the flip side is when we leave the students in their existing building, we build a new facility on the ball fields or wherever, and then we flip the kids

109into that, and then demo the existing building. So, that's the next thing we look at. If we don't go that route, then we end up with a multi-phase project where we're in the building for it could be anywhere from 4 to 5 almost 6 years where we're just touching little spaces everywhere. So, with Ligon, unfortunately, being inside the beltline, we don't have any swing space sites large enough to move the students in. So, We don't have any. We don't have any swing space sites. What we would have to do is move them into another We'd have to build a middle school and move them into a new middle school, then renovate their school, which we have done that a lot. Um but, unfortunately, we're not doing that kind of construction inside the beltline. So, unfortunately,

110Ligon did not fall into that category. So, it's been very challenging for us. So, this was the first time I've ever even looked at a college to try to deliver them. And like Mr. Strickland said, we were very excited about it. We really did go in there thinking, "This is maybe an opportunity." And it was it was going to be a challenging site for the students. And so, those were the steps we took. I don't know if there are any other Yeah, the same argument it was going to become a security issue because you're going to have students moving from building to building, just like a college campus, which is exactly what it is. Um and being at the middle school age, we didn't think that that was going to be appropriate for the students

111or staff to really maintain over time. Um and then as you look at swing space and you talked about, you know, doing little bits of pieces of renovations on site, it drags out longer in time. Um but certainly going to impact the the instructional piece. And that was one of our main priorities was to try to maintain that as much as possible because it is a magnet program. Because it draws families from all over the county, we wanted to make sure that we were able to keep the enrollment at the school healthy over time so that could have long-term success. Thank you. Um just staying on this question really quick, how many potential sites were actually evaluated? So, I know you shared the process of what it takes to do a thing, right? And I

112heard you say, "We couldn't see anything." I was just curious about commercial sites, other charter charter schools by So, with all of Wake County as large as we are, and I know we're in the Southeast Raleigh area, but we're limited. So, it's safe to say there was no other viable options. >> Well, we try to stay what's the distance that we try to stay from. Is it 12 miles or 15 miles? Under 15, yeah. It's less than 15. So, if you're looking at that circle, then you have to look at the schools and the facilities within that circle. So, the only viable option could have been Well, maybe viable, but the only option that we could look at and actually go see was the not Shaw, but Saint Augustine. Okay. Um yeah. So, the other

113part that I saw when you guys were sharing your data, you saw that a large proportion of the families were in the northern part, right? Just on the thought exchange. Right, on the thought exchange were northern families. Is that right? 19%. 19% We're 19%. Okay. And that's the from our magnet program. That's you That's the main draw area. That's Okay, the main draw area. And I will say, just to be fully transparent, it's open to the public. Right. So, someone could have just had an opinion and participated, too. I get it. And so, okay, so that maybe this may not make any sense, but it's still a thought that I'll put out there since we're talking about building spaces. Um if I am correct, I believe Ligon Middle School is 60% magnet. And only Yeah.

114I know I'm correct. It's not that I believe, I know I'm correct. We're 60% magnet and we're 40% base. And so, I my thought was was there ever a consideration of the majority of where our students are coming from considered to find a space cuz I know when we're renovating other schools in other areas in district, we seem to find a space for those children to go. And so, I just found it very challenging that we could not find a space for these children without building a 7 or 8 million-dollar modular space for these students that happen to be in this particular historic neighborhood um to go when we seem to find a space when we build everywhere else. That's a good point. We did consider the Spring Forest campus, which is uh adjacent to

115East Millbrook Middle School. Um again, because of the draw area being up that way, but the size of that campus would not hold all of the students all at once. And it would then again get in the way of offering magnet electives to students throughout their three years of the curriculum. Okay. We could We couldn't use that site. Okay. I'm trying. I'm going to I'm going to shift to the next question so I can move on. >> for point, I'm aware that our two other middle school projects that are being contemplated at East Garner and North Garner are going to have to do a swing on site as well because we just don't have middle school swing space or even high school swing space at this time big enough to accommodate. They're going to have

116to go through the same types of challenges. Of course. The minor state The same thing with West Millbrook did a similar project to what option three is here where they're They built on the ball fields while the students stayed in the school and then they switched over. Essentially, middle school construction is a challenge for us to find a spot for. So So I think even with hearing that, I would I would love to hear what the facilities department as a whole, knowing that we've got schools to renovate, schools to consistently build, what is the plan of action that we are taking? We knew that this project was coming. We knew what the limited spaces was. Not last year, not two years ago. We knew this over three years ago that it was coming. And so

117I'm just really curious. When I talk about the intentionality of what we're doing, what is the intentionality of what we're doing if we say that our words are least disruptive as for children and focusing on them, if that is the case, what are we doing? What do we need to do as a board to give you the leeway to think outside the box and make sure that our students are having the least disruption as possible to be in buildings that are standard and code so that excellence in education can actually happen. And so I'm a bit disappointed of where we are with this Legan project, but I do want to move on to my next question before I get deemed if we're not going to go. Um But I'm concerned about that, superintendent, and I'm

118hoping that um as you continue to lead um this district, that we take that into strong consideration. What I am hurt about, and I hate to put feelings into it, but I what I'm disappointed in is that it's not happening with Ligon. That's well deserved. And so that moves me on to my second question um in reference to the conversations that we've had about um displacing our children. Um make sure I I just had my question. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Um We talked about the temporary We talked about the the the the options. And the options that we have. Um one of the things that um I gave concern for in the beginning was we were told and as superintendent even just said today that we have not closed um the options, right? That it's

119not set in stone about the design. However, when I constantly um hear about the options and when we talk, it basically is set in stone. So help me understand why there were no more options other than what facility said option three is the only option. That's in your own paperwork, in your own slides that you showed that there were no cons to option three. There were no mix matches of option two and three. There was nothing. It was all option three, all or nothing. And so to tell us, of reasonable thinking people, that you we this not set in stone, there are no other options, but you present to us that there is only one option of reasonable thinking people. And not only that, we never framed the We never framed the other options as

120if building a cultural space or remembrance space was a part of both options. We only framed it You only designed it in your presentations that only with option three did you talk about a cultural space that could be a part of it. I think that was unfair to our public, and I think that it, you know, it caused a portion of our trust to not look genuine. Because we should have stated the building structure or the cultural pieces within it, the legacy parts within it could still be applied. I know it was verbalized, but it was never seen in our presentations, only with option three. And so So, my question to us is with the options that you have provided with us throughout the duration of this process, never switching up the options, even though

121you keep saying they're not set in stone, what other options will you give us today to keep this building on the top of the hill, and make sure our students have somewhere they can be to keep learning flowing while the school is rebuilt? Because the options that we see are families that don't live in this neighborhood, and will not will not necessarily get to utilize the school. And I'm being very transparent, and I'm being very open, not on my own thoughts, but on our own data. So, how do we preserve that, Superintendent? How do we How do you bring us different options than the three that you said, and we've shared We shaped the narrative that this is the only option. Not by the district, not by community's doing, this is what we did as

122a district. And I take ownership of that because I'm a part of the district. We shaped the narrative that option three is the only option, and there are no other options. How do we correct that narrative? So, uh my first response is that obviously the idea was to keep the site where it is. Uh one of the things that I was transparent with um when I had my sessions is that it was not about saying that there are no cons to option three and that we're making that the most cuz it's you know the favorable option over the other. And so, that is something that I actually shared with them to say that uh with any option that you have, you can always find something that is a con. So, when they went through those

123options and with option three, uh when you look at the pros versus cons that were in option one and two, you didn't necessarily have any of those in option three. Uh and so, things could have been highlighted to say that uh athletic facilities won't be on campus and you're going to have to swing somewhere else, uh but that wasn't there. Um in in terms of keeping it at that site, I think that is a decision that was made prior to most of us in that uh if there's a limitation to swing space that's available based on on mileage, uh then that does limit the decision that you make about uh where you will be. Uh when we say uh these are the three options. Now, the board can direct staff uh to come back and

124do some other kind of option. That's what I meant when I said that you look at multiple things. And when you begin to draw those down, that's going to lead you to a narrow number of options. So, uh when when there were discussions about options one and two, uh the meeting that you and I went to was just simply a discussion about option three. And that's not to preclude that's not somewhere else. Other options were not available. And so out of that option, when they said option three, because there was a concern about the legacy if the physical building was not there. That's when they talked about, you know, the legacy walk, the pavilion, things of that nature, which was a part of option three. And so the thing that I would reaffirm to the

125public is that it really doesn't matter which option you choose, that the legacy piece has to be something that has to be prominent. Um I don't want to make assumptions, but I could would relatively assume that if it were option one, then the physical building is there. And then those alumni that that don't want to see the building go away will say that we've got the legacy, the majority of what we want to keep is the physical building. But now we recognize in hindsight that regardless of whatever the option is, there's got to be something that weighs heavily on the legacy, whether it's the existing building or something else. And so, you know, when we talk about what it is that we see as viable options, we can come up with 30 or 40. That

126doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be viable when we look at those. And that's how we ended up with narrowing it down to these three, saying that if you renovate the building, then you remain there. And if you don't renovate it, and you want to construct something new, these are the two options that you have. The site that would be at the current where the current building is as new, a one that's adjacent to that. And so, you know, to me, I know that's how we arrived at those options. Um I don't disagree about the legacy piece, that in hindsight we all recognize that that is something that needed to be lifted up at a much higher level regardless of which option was chosen. My third question I'm just going to ask chair and

127colleagues and that is is it necessary that we vote tonight considering we really don't have any options other than the three and we have not had they have not done three on threes to say what else could we do. I don't want to prolong anything as necessary as possible but I am deeply concerned with what has gone forth and the fact that we're not choosing to honor a space that people in the community that lives there is asking for. They asked for one simple thing. They understood that a new building would have to take place but they asked that it stay at the top of the hill. They compromised with that. They didn't want the building to be torn down from the very beginning of talks. And so they compromised because they understood that students

128need good learning spaces. So we as a board can we compromise? Can we give a community that usually never gets to have a voice but usually has to be the one that always compromises in these situations even where we are now 50 years later. Megans of the world have always had to compromise their choices. Can we build a school at the top of the hill, manage what the cost and stuff may look like and narrow it down and give these community folks what they're asking for to build the school back at the top of the hill even though they don't want to tear it down but they understand it needs to be a new building. So I'll respond to that after the remarks. I I do want to raise a point. If this project, option

129one is chosen, which is over budget, which school is impacted off the CIP? So, option one is not over budget. Option two is the one that's over budget. So, but that's what we're talking about here. So, option one is within budget, option three would be on budget, option two would be the one that would require additional funding from somewhere else. Um we looked at that, we looked within the CIP to identify opportunities to do that. Um it would mean a couple of things. It would mean that um the most we have a project that fits the time frame of the funding that we're given from the county, and that project would need to be delayed, but there'd also be a cascading effect that other projects would typically be delayed. What is that project? That would

130be Cary High School. And I will not support Cary High School moving off track when Cary High School has also fallen off track and has been moved due to other schools, which is also in need for a school. So, that is where I draw the line in the sand. For me, I cannot afford, nor can I allow the Cary High community, who has been waiting for a new school, to push. So, I get I I I understand the feelings and and where we are with this, but I I know I'll pause my thoughts. I'll Can I ask you a question, chair? Um with the option two that we're talk- option one that we're talking about, um can I ask the question to facilities if that one is still as option one is still under budget,

131what is the difference in the option one piece versus the option two? Cuz cuz in phase in option one, I thought too it still would be in the temporary mobile site that has to be built, but we're still saying that's less. And I know we're saying renovate, but what is the difference between building a new, still having to put the temporary mobile campus there, and what is the difference in rebuilding the new of the school? What money that you're coming from that's so exaggerated from option three to go in there. So, help me understand that cuz that doesn't make sense to me. >> that's I can explain that. That with option one and option two, the difference is about $45 million in 4 and 5 years. So, option one >> But, why? Uh well, with

132option one because you're doing a renovation, part of that time frame is uh is constructing the mobile village that they would have to swing into. So, that would have to be constructed first. Uh and so, there's a time element in terms of how long that would take. I'm not sure what that is. It's the option one and two, the mobile village is the the cost that makes it so expensive. Um we would have to take everyone in the school and house them in mobile units on site. We looked at recreating the spaces as much as we could in terms of gymnasium space, dance space, band, all of the spaces that they currently have. Um the site is really small, and so there were multitude of challenges um with getting enough mobile units on site and

133also handling the traffic issues and student drop-off and pick-up. But, that's the difference. And and option one also is just a renovation, not a building of a new school. So, you're just bringing some of the classrooms up to date, some of the facilities, fixing a roof and stuff like that. So, you're not getting a full facilities overhaul. So, not all of the spaces will get up to code. Well, they'll get up to code, but not No, they won't. They won't get So, you're not going to have the same educational experience with option one as you will with option two or three because you're getting that new facility. And you're going to have to come back in several years to readdress other issues that aren't fixed within this particular project. So, you're looking at a second

134disruption for families down the road where we have to come back and revisit the campus. There may not be a timeline for that, but I There's certainly not something planned within the next 7 to 10 years. Which is what happened to Cary High. I'm going to keep with the order that I saw. So, I have Mr. Haggerty, vice chair, Dr. King. Uh Mr. Chairman and Ms. Adcock, I have a couple of comments. All right. So, when you present us with choices like this, you're asking us to take a lot on faith. And all of these budget numbers you're asking us to take on faith. And unfortunately, my experience has been that these estimates are not always accurate. And my lived experience on this board with another high school, the Morrisville High School, has shown where

135we've had recommendations and estimates presented for completion of a project. And then, once the design phase starts, all of a sudden, costs are very different, obstacles are very different, things that one would expect could have been foreseen because the land hasn't changed, the property hasn't changed, but now the estimates and what is planned on the land suddenly has changed. So, it's hard for me to take this on faith based on what we went through with Morrisville High School. And I want to come back to that high school for a couple reasons here. One of the one of the things that we saw with Morrisville High School, why we couldn't build the high school there, was that even though we'd come out and we'd looked at the land and done our feasibility study, we were told

136the topography was a challenge. It was challenging topography. The slope on the land was such that we couldn't build the high school as we intended. I've pulled up a topographical map of Ligon. The topography on the Ligon site is much more extreme than the Morrisville High School site. The option that's being recommended moving the students to the ball fields, all the athletic fields, well, they're all flat and level. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But then it says you're going to have middle school athletic facilities up on the hill, which would mean grading and flattening and somehow changing this hill to where you could have flat athletic fields. And as I look at the footprint and the space occupied by Ligon's current athletic fields, I do not see how they will fit on the more narrow

137northern part of that footprint to rebuild the existing fields, especially with that slope. So, I have some real concerns about the feasibility of phase three based on the topography of the site and the ability to put Already, we've talked about the Ligon site. It was said here in this committee does not have the same square footage of a traditional middle school that you would build in Wake County today. I think trying to shoehorn some of these facilities into space that is not suited for them, while still complying with all the regulations that we will have for green space, non-permeable surfaces, your carpool queuing lanes, is going to be a lot more challenging than we're being presented with here. And I think that will impact the costs. I think putting the high school on the bottom

138and then flattening that area, I think there's going to be some complex drainage and storm water issues we have to consider. And so, I I really am reluctant to accept this phase three plan as the best option based on just looking at the site, based on what we saw at this other high school. Now, I won't say too much about it, but I want to, you know, echo what Mr. Rice has said about the history and the culture of the site. And what bothers me here is that this exact same this exact same designer, LS3P, did another project for a very historically similar high school, West Charlotte, which was Charlotte's historically black high school. And they went through at our state school board association with a presentation that detailed everything they did in terms of

139historical research, cultural outreach, and all the work they did to preserve the history of that school. And they were able to do it in a new space, right? It wasn't They didn't have to preserve the building. But none of that took place here. And the representative from LS3P, when questioned on it, presented to me in this public meeting information that wasn't true because I was at the meetings that she presented at. Back, I guess, May of 20, was it 25? >> 2025. 2025. So, I have a lot of concerns about the process that has gotten here to date. Now, we're in a pickle. We're in a bind for a lot of the reasons that were said. But I worry about being brought selective facts and selective information to build a case toward a preferred outcome.

140We've heard a lot about specific middle schools. We've heard a lot about not wanting to, you know, inconvenience families and I get it. There's probably not one family that would go to Lufkin that wants to go to a different site, that wants to be inconvenienced, that wants to go further away. But Ms. Rissetto asked a question that if you think about it was pretty prescient here. She's asking where are these students coming from? If the student if the student base is 60% magnet, a lot of them are coming from the northern area and that northwest area. But the only swing spaces that you mentioned were in eastern Wake County and southern Wake County. If you want an option for swing space that would save the district millions of dollars and would not threaten any development

141of the CIP in terms of delaying Cary High School, you've got Parkside Middle School right there at the site of that former Mills Road High School site, which is already being graded, already under construction, and already being built out a middle school, which would serve the local neighborhoods of the largest base of magnet students. I'm not saying that's the best answer, but I'm saying when you consider options, I don't know how far you really looked. So, you know, I have I have concerns about the process to date. I have I don't have faith that this phase three site as planned is going to be ideal. You know, it the project won't be finished probably until, you know, I'm long gone and just complaining from out there in public comment in the audience. But but I

142just wanted to raise those concerns here before we make the choice, before we have a vote. Yeah, I I I I I don't have a better option for you, but I have I have some real concerns about where we are. Um Mr. Haggard, if I could respond to a couple of those things. Um the comparison with the Marshall High School site in Legan, um Legan is an existing site. We we know what we have there. Marshall High School site, um facility staff didn't find out about the um the amount of rock on that site until after we purchased it and we would planned and budgets were set, we didn't find out that information till way after the fact. And as we did the the due diligence on planning, um it became quickly evident that we

143needed to pivot because of the expense of developing that site. So, you know, those two comparisons, um that site had a lot of rock to it and and this one doesn't. I just wanted to make that point. I mean, we we felt like we were way way over budget on that site. As far as as budgets and and projections, um I think the track record more recently on our budgets and what we're bringing projects that are spot on. Um and then the concern about the elevation changes at um at Legan have been discussed many times with that lower field uh being brought up with engineered fill to a level that's equal to or level with Martin Luther King Boulevard. But, that's not the hill. It's not. That's the lower elevation. Right. What we're talking about

144is how you would flatten the higher elevation. I mean, you can see How would you still be tiered? It would still be tiered. It would still be tiered. Yes. The fields would be at two different elevations. Yeah. So they would the softball the softball field would be at one elevation. There would be considerable change up to the soft the softball field. Oh, no. I'm I said my piece. Um I'm I'm going to go a little backwards. Having athletic fields tiered is not uncommon at our high school at our high schools. It's just you you make do with the land that you have. I'm going to push back on a few things and I would object to delaying a vote on this. We have had the options for 2 and 1/2 months. We had three by

145threes. Within the options themselves on option one it says preserve the JW Leggett history and legacy. Renovation designs can it can elevate the history and legacy. It says that for option two. Everyone's had ample time. It was stressed bring all questions to staff, everything you have. And I did and and my conversations early with uh the facilities team and facilities prep committee prep meetings I asked and pushed on swing space. I asked about could you do a sixth grade center? Would that be feasible so you could then create enough so then you could swing students off. I thought we would end up somewhere on phase two based on kind of the early like what would be the cost of a mobile village. And then I pushed staff because it was clear that what we needed

146was some projection on the three potential options because we did not have dollar amounts. Uh I agree with Mr. Haggerty. We have to do a better process and that we we need to learn from this process. We did things a little bit backwards. Um, I asked about why can we not preserve the gym and auditorium and build on that side. I have asked all of these questions and pressed staff on it. Um, and I've had time to do it. I went out and went there and Elizabeth to the site and looked at how the building would be up. And it was very helpful to me to see that it is going to be very high up. What's the side street? I always forget it. Heyward. It's going to be very noticeable along the side street

147of Heyward. This It's going The top of that building on a face on option three, which I am certainly supporting, is going to be level with the current building now. It's going to be a presence. And we as a board have the opportunity to say, "Here's what we want to see in the new building. Here's how we want to do it." There's a committee of part of this to ensure that we had like if we have uh I asked them about it even if it's a ceremonial entrance on Heywood, similar to the auditorium entrance now. And that may be a way to preserve some of that original building site. So, I went through all that process for me. Um, and the last thing I'll bring up cuz I don't want to keep going too long.

148What it came back to to for me was also the $26 million, $27 million uh of spending on a temporary campus. We have a huge amount of needs in this county. We have a bond in which we are going to be asking for a significant amount of money to be approved. How do I justify to families anywhere including in in communities that have really been hurt by property tax raises? I mean that is on my mind. How do I say, "Hey, we're going to spend 26 extra million dollars and on something that's going to be there for 3 years, then it's going to go away, and oh by the way, please pass this huge bond because I have 25 other schools. I have Rock Corey, which I have been pushing on hard on to get

149to Piney Plains, which the chair has equally been pushing hard on to get done. And we have Carey, and we have all of these projects. And I wish we had a bigger swing space. That's part of the conversations and the great work that staff is doing to facilitate that going forward. It's unfortunate we do not. But, you know, in order to build those swing spaces, what would we have lost in the last 10 or 15 years? Cuz you would have had to build out a swing space and taken a project off. And and that's a hard ask to do of uh you know, when we have when we've had to build I mean how many new schools have we built 20 25 just since you've been on the board? I mean it's so many new

150schools. So, it's not like we've had money sitting there to say, "Hey, let's build these swing spaces." It'd be great if we did, but I have to work under the reality of what we have. And I'm being consistent because I also voted for moving more to a high school as a way because of the cost of it. And as a way to save money. And that's where I'm at on this. Sheriff, I may just add a comment about Parkside Middle School. Not to mention the distance from downtown cuz it is quite a distance and it's in a congested area in Mooresville. Transportation, you know, provides bus service not only for magnet kids but for base kids. The magnet students share transportation with other downtown magnets. So, we would be asking our transportation to have a

151set number of drivers just for Lincoln families to transport them back and forth to the swing site and we just don't have the staff to be able to do that. I mean, I I'll I'll push back because you have an existing building that you would not have to build as opposed to building temporary buildings and mobile campuses that you'd have to tear down. So, you know, yeah, there'll be costs in some areas but there'll be fewer costs in other areas. Um you know, again, the the design costs of building a temporary a new temporary space when other existing spaces exist, I mean, you can't ignore that. How much are the temporary spaces? How much how how much would the the phase three temporary space cost? Well, the phase one and two for the temporary space

152estimated at 26 million. Okay. Three doesn't have one. Sorry, I apologize. I can come back to you with a follow-up but I want to keep with the order. So, I'm going to go to Dr. Eng, Mr. Jones, Dr. Joe, Ms. Edmonds and then I have a comment and I'll open up for the second round. And I apologize for going out of order. Um thank you. Um I think I'll have a little little bit of a different spin on things um just kind of from my own experience having lived in a home at the bottom of a hill um and having um when the construction done uphill me, um that um storm water is a real concern of mine. Um And the the the the runoff on the surface um during a construction process is a

153real concern of mine. Um and so, you know, I'm I'm I'm only looking at it from the three options that we have. Um And the fact is, you know, do I want to subject our students to a mobile campus on the bottom of the hill during the construction process whereby there there may be increased runoff and potential for flooding possibly. Um Um and all the things that involved versus um building the building on the bottom of the hill where we know what we're what we are contending with and the construction process that I'm I'm hoping will will take care of or or alleviate some of the the runoff issues. And at least while the while the the process is going that the students will not be um uh subjected to the possibility of flooding uh

154during that that uh construction process. So, the the point for me is, you know, do I want us to have um the uncertainty of flooding during the whole process of the building um or not. Um so, it's it's it's a big question on my mind in addition to some of the other issues. Um and I just want you guys to all all to think about that. Um and then the other issue, you know, that I've been hearing a lot of the emails from lot of parents is you know Um of course you know being that there is a magnet program you know I'm I'm concerned about what the impact of it is on the magnet program. Uh if we were to look at um a mobile campus um that many many parents don't don't want

155to um be be um uh in. So um so those are the factors that that that are kind of in my mind right now. Um so uh I'll just let other people speak at this point. After you, sir. Um I had two questions. One was if we looked at I'm trying to think about option two. Um So the two questions are related to that. One is that if we do the mobile campus is there any way to do some sort of mobile campus in a way that it could be broken down and then used to replace some of the mobile units that we're having issues with across the county? So if I can address that we have a surplus right now of mobile classrooms. Um we that would not be a benefit to us uh

156financially or or Where do you think we have a surplus of mobile classrooms? We have classrooms that um in some cases aren't being used. They're being used for storage units, things like that. We are trying to uh go through the process of removing those um and that's an ongoing effort. Right, but I imagine that these I'm just thinking about like Alachua and the mold issue that they're having. Like if we have a surplus of mobile classrooms, why is that still an issue? Like why haven't we traded those out yet? Um well, those units are being used um and if anything we would be rebuilding um mobile classrooms there. It also has to do with the location of the unit, too. The the access points. So if you have other uh mobiles blocking that unit, you

157have to remove those units. You'd replace or remove that unit. And because the school is overcrowded at this point, you don't have that ability or space ability availability to address that concern. Uh from what I understand, we've addressed the issues and concerns at the mobile in question at uh on Chapel. Okay. >> So. All right. It's still like 30 years old though, right? I'm not worried about these things. The average age of our mobile units across the district are uh over 35 years old. Okay. So, it's still the original question. I mean like why wouldn't we use these new mobile units that we used for the mobile classroom to replace some of those? Um I guess this To that, Joe, I'd add to that and uh I would certainly love LS3 P to respond to

158the mobile campus, but uh the way that would be constructed would not necessarily be uh units that you would want to remove and put on another site. So, it's not like uh mobile units that you see now that are individual units are multi-classroom. >> Okay. The way that I'm sorry, sir, but the way that you have envisioned it now, that's true, but we could envision it another way. Um I And that brings me to my second question is is there a way to come back to the option to design to bring it more into alignment with the budget? I mean, I know, you know, I know we're trying to build schools for the future, not for the current, and I do understand that. But also visiting some of the newer campuses and stuff, there are

159definitely additions that are made. There are definitely decisions that are made that are optional. And so, is it possible to to revisit the design to bring it under budget? That's what I said. So, either building, whether it's option two or option three, is satisfying the program. The program space is going to be similar. Um and uh multi-story uh for both uh, would still be the case cuz again, we want to consolidate the footprint as as much as we can. Okay. Um, I'm not going to ask all my questions cuz I I don't want to take up a lot of time, but um, I hear Mr. Haggerty's point, um, and thank you for, um, the Parkside Middle example. But with respecting the community, I can't imagine going to the base students, even though they're the 40%

160versus 60, and asking them to go to that area temporarily. And I I don't know the answer. I'm not I just I mean, they've been doing it for 50 years, um, so Um, My apologies. Well, not if they're base at Ligon. I mean, do you know what I mean? Like I understand what you're saying about the magnet program and and that students for historical diversity notes and such have been sent outside of Southeast Raleigh to these other areas. Um, but if that's something we're trying to correct, I just don't know. I can't imagine how the I would think the community would be upset, but I don't know that. So, it's just a question that I have not to be answered this second. It's just something I thought about. And then, obviously, Mr. Ice, you've you've

161heard way more feedback than we have, but with the alumni feedback at the hearing that I went to, it was the first one after the new year, and I was there the vast majority of the time. I think I left at 10 minutes before the end time. Um, there were people that spoke that self-identified as alumni, and um, not magnet alumni but from the high school who said they supported option three. I didn't take a count and I was just curious if the feedback you've gotten from the alumni if it's more for the the other one of the other two options. I don't choose to allow me to answer. She just wondered. So, what what I've noticed is when we're left with the choices that we're left with without other options, it leaves you to

162just choose what this what staff has asked us to do now. So, they're taking the option that they can get versus we as a board shaping the option that they can have. If we're saying it's not set in stone, we hold the opportunity to correct some wrongs. We recognize that some of the things that we're hearing today is not fair. To Mr. Hershey's point, I've asked the same questions of the of our facilities team on our pre on threes and all that stuff. I've done the push back. I've done the ask the questions over these months, but I'm getting the same answers. And so, for my understanding, we as a board hold the option to change. They just don't have any options. We have not provided them with options and they've been depending on us

163to come back and say, "No, we don't want this. Go back to the drawing board." And we have that option and they're waiting on us to do it. And that's the feedback I've been getting back. That's the feedback that I got on December when I did it before I went out with over 100 people there who were raging, angry, and mad that that school was not staying on top of the hill with the options that I shared. They were not in favor of that. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. All right. So, I Mr. Chair, one of the things I'll say and I don't want to talk about the options that are available and and the possibility of seeing more. And I think the staff has done um the exhaustive work of trying to identify swing

164spaces. So when you talk with alumni, I think they've all come to the conclusion that a new building is necessary. Whether they even if they don't like the idea of losing the original building. And so there are many that say we would like to see it on the top of the hill versus in the adjacent spot light. Thank everybody. People have coalesced around the idea that we know that's necessary. The major difference between option two and three beyond that $25 million or $26 million for a moving village is if there is a swing space that we need to do option two, what are the options that are there? And so looking in that geographic zone, we just have not been able to identify that. If you go to a different area, if you talk about

165Parkside Middle, that is also the concern that you know, 40% of the school which is the base has to travel there. And that remaining 60% that's magnet, while a substantial portion may come from there, you know, they're going to be in different places as well and They all need to wait for the light board. Right. And so they kind of come from all over the place. And so that's where I know that um while it may seem as though these are the limited options, I think what it comes down to is swing space availability is really the difference between phase two or option two and option three. And that whatever we do in terms of a swing space, the concern is always going to be what does that do to the magnet population because one

166of the things that the parents said to me that if you do a renovation uh and and we've got to be out of that school. Basically, what they said is we have to go to a mobile village then we're not coming. And we know we're going to lose that and and we accepted the fact that uh the magnet numbers would go down. Uh but once the new building opened up, eventually we would anticipate that those numbers would come back. Wouldn't be overnight. But at some point they would come back. And that the least disruption would be that option three where you don't have to do anything to the existing program. And so I think uh that is the biggest difference that I see that uh without the availability of the right kind of swing space,

167and even if we had it would be great if we had an existing building within that range that we could swing into, then there really wouldn't be any disruption to the program. But now uh nothing available that meets the need for swing space within the range that we're talking about. And then a school that would be two-fold that would uh also put a heavy burden on the base population. That is what I essentially see the difference between these two. And again, alumni from everything that I've seen, they've accepted the fact that a new building is the right right way to go. But that is the biggest difference between uh option two and option three. Uh we see it as a swing space and and and you guys can uh share more about uh your thoughts

168on the swing space, but I think we've had that conversation and see that as uh I think the most difficult lift in terms of finding a space that's adequate. I I just want to add something cuz we we've mentioned, you know, that the magnet population, but this also impacts the base students. Because they get the magnet programming at the school as well. And so when you go to a swing space and you're not getting the instruction that you've signed up for, the orchestra, the band, the art classes, all those electives that they have for those children, the AG classes, you're not going to get that in that swing space, then that impacts all of the students, whether they come from 2 miles away or they come from 20 miles away. And so that's why staff

169has led to feel that option three doesn't impact that instruction and that seems to be the one that we would prefer more. So, I just want to make a couple of comments and then I'll open up for the next round. And so, I mean, this is a tough decision. Anything that we do is a tough decision, whether it's dealing with a renovation project, whether it's passing a budget that may be even tougher. This is what we've been elected to do, and I know Briarcliff is one that's being renovated, that's going to be renovated on campus, that's going to have some challenges because of, well, price rise, because there's not a swing space in western Wake County that I represent to have swing space. So, a lot of the options that we're facing in western Wake

170is swinging on campus, which increases the price and takes away from the work that could be done. I read through the emails, I was at Ms. Rice's event, I was at the superintendent's, and I heard and I was looking through my notes here, I I heard about the concerns about being in a mobile village or a mobile uh village. And I understand that. Um and I learned at that that event that I went to a high school in Guilford County, Eastern Guilford High School in 2008 that burned down. Um Eastern Guilford High School was a older school in rural Eastern Guilford County. My parents went there, my aunts were the first class to ever leave in that building in '77. And the school was burned called fire in 2008. And with that, there was option

171there was displacement. Talk about teaching and learning being disrupted, you had six ninth graders in Jamestown, GTCC, you had some in all over Guilford County. And just like this, the community came together and we were in a a mobile village for 2 years while they watched the campus getting built. And in that particular moment, I was my freshman and sophomore freshman and sophomore year at that high school. Concerns being in a mobile campus right now do not look like the same concerns than they were 15 years ago when I was in high school. Um the concern was about how do you keep the legacy of Eastern Guilford High School? It's a notable high school. Terrence Holt, Tori Holt alums there. Their aunts were were outstanding football I mean basketball players. My father went there. His

172was the only graduating one was the only class that really made it all champions. They won championships. So, talk about the history that's there. And all of my teachers that were there were relatives and went there. So, we had an opportunity again being in that mobile village um to number one watch the school being built, number two helping shape in that legacy of what Eastern Guilford High School should look like. And one thing that we were able to do based off numerous conversations was if you look at the new school, the seal of Eastern Guilford High School, it has 1977 when the school was built and 2010 when this new class was able to come into that building. When you walk into the school, there's a picture of the old school. So, the legacy of

173Eastern Guilford High School still lives with all of us who matriculated through that school. And these were tough conversations as well due to the fact that you had folks who taught there, went there, wanting the school to remain as is on the property. And Mr. Burnett, I learned was a part of that project. No who would have thought that? But that school there was not on the original It was on the original land, but the new school does not sit where the old school sit. Still on the land. So, talk about the changes and how we move and and maneuver, I think those are all tough decisions. I couldn't imagine what that school board went through during that time frame, but I know they were elected to do what was best, to figure out how

174to ensure teaching and learning took place, figuring out how to keep families together. And and when we look at this, we heard that a lot of the families there did not want their students to be in a mobile village for at least 5 years. Teachers that spoke, principals, I'm not principals, parents, students. So, I I I I understand their concerns, but I also understand that the historical significance of this property, too. I get that. I don't know what it's like to live through a segregated school. I went to an elementary school that was a segregated school that my grandparents attended, Dillard Elementary School. So, although that school does not necessarily sit the original school, the cafeteria that was the old school was still there. So, I'm wondering, I know that these options are not the

175perfect options, but I know that we have a due diligence to take our feedback, have these conversations, to figure out how do we move best. And when I read through the emails from the PTA, from the athletic booster, from parents, teachers, community members, things that I've read and that I've heard that's a common theme is less than a options and keeping teaching and learning to take place. So, whether that is option two, option three, I think that is we're dealing with the cards that are being dealt with us. And we have an opportunity to rectify a wrong, make the school look as if telling that story of Lincoln, highlighting the alums that went through there. Um so, that was the piece I wanted to raise, and I I know we have 6 minutes, but I

176am open to continuing this dialogue so we can come up to a consensus because I don't think it's it's beneficial to the community, the school community to continue to delay this. I also think it's going to be beneficial to those families who are trying to determine, do I continue to keep my child at Legler or do I find another school? Because that also impacts the allotments that teachers have. So we talked about the magnet programs that are here. These, based off of the dollars and enrollments, are connected. So I I want us to get to a consensus to the best of our ability. So I'll go through. I know, I'm sorry Ms. Gordon, I don't know if you spoke on this first round or not, but I did. I was one of the first ones.

177Okay. So I'll go Mr. Haggerty, Ms. Rice, Ms. Gordon, and for the second round, if there's anyone else, and then the vice chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll I'll defer because I've been talking about this issue for several years now. I will say in regards to the health of the magnet school programs, one thing that's always brought to our attention is the health of our other magnet schools, particularly other magnet middle schools. And how many other magnet middle schools are under enrolled? And how many of our other middle schools in these base draw areas are under enrolled? So in terms of a dollar and and cents and an efficiency issue, it may not be so bad for the district's bottom line if some families do choose temporarily to either try a Carol Middle School or

178Centennial Middle School or some other magnet middle schools in the area. Or in my area, in my neighborhood, we have two middle schools that are only about 60% 60 to 70% enrolled. And we know that's not very efficient, either. So there's pros and cons on either side of that issue. The other thing is if we are truly going to raise these ball fields up to the same elevation as MLK Boulevard, we we Did I hear that wrong? Yeah, again, it's tiered. >> Mhm. So, on option three, you're using the lower area, but that was going to be equivalent to MLK Boulevard. But then the ball fields The ball fields are going to be on the northern end of the property, but I'm saying where the ball fields currently are now, where the school would go,

179that would be elevated up to and so I'm I'm curious how high that would actually be because Dr. King brought up a very good point when you talk about the impact of people who that live downhill and all of those residential neighbors on State Street, when you're going to add that much impermeable surface for the footprint of the entire middle school on that southern end of the property and raising it up, I don't know what we're going to hear back from Raleigh City Council from those impacted residents. So, I would expect that we're going to have less impervious surface area. We haven't designed it yet, but that is certainly the expectation and the goal. Less impervious surface area than the ball field? Less impervious surface area compared to the school. uh compared to future. Okay.

180uh Ms. Rice? I'm going to offer the chair's part. Okay. Um I yeah, I can say uh more for when we have the discussion out there, but um again, I really um stress strongly that we keep the school on the property here and you all figure out how to fix the budget. I think that we It's really that simple sometimes because we make everything else that simple sometimes when it's what we want to do, but I'm but for me, honestly, um who's going to absorb the destruction and in this proposal the most and how does the and how does that mirror the racial history of who has absorbed destruction in this district, right? So, we keep talking about these students and what I love is what Mr. um Haggerty just said, it is okay that

181it's disrupted for a little while. A lot of schools are disrupted for a little while. But give this community something they deserve. It's not something they deserve this. And Wake County needs to do it. They deserve it. History has proven they deserve it. It is okay to disrupt the 60%. And ask them to compromise. But this community deserves what they want. I am not for phase three. And first of all, I don't know who has visited the area. And we're talking about in the facilities talking I'm going to hurry. The facilities talking about raising the the field. Do you live in South East Raleigh and have you been over there? And you are not going to tell the difference of something of some dirt raised that's a school that's around the corner and MLK is

182around. You're not seeing that. It doesn't make sense with what we're saying it's going to do. It doesn't not if you go over there. It's not the same. You can't see that. MLK is at the corner of of the street and and that school is further down the road. You don't see the difference. You're not going to see the cuz there's other houses and stuff there. That's not the difference of it being with the building just to say oh we're going to put the building up here on this end of the street. You're just saying I'm going to put the building on this end of the street. Why can't you leave the building where it originally was and designed to keep the historic nature of the school. And figure the rest out the same way

183you do at all the other schools that you do. But I will not support option three. One is not what my community is asking for. And two, I know that our staff is competent enough to find another way. Ms. Gordon. Thank you. Um, so I'm I'm listening to to everything that's being said, you know, in the beginning when I asked about um, when I asked about uh, um, current facility standards and you all explained that, you know, the existing building itself is very like long and elongated and we can see that in the from the the um, drawings that we've been given. However, what I did not what I didn't seems like it's a glaring difference now that I'm looking at it because Mr. Haggerty has pointed it out, the difference between option two and

184option three. You look at the ball fields, the ball fields in option two look extremely larger than the the ball fields on option three, which which we have been I guess um, prepped to think that it's the best option. So, I'm trying to figure out how how are the ball fields in option three the same size as option two? Is it the same square footage? Are we trying to squeeze in a ball field that's not there? That's my first question. My second question, in in um, in respect to what Dr. Gelb said about going back to the table and looking at design options, have we considered maybe changing the design option? So, that perhaps we do keep a part of the building up on top of the hill and maybe still design a new building

185and have to separate the ball fields. I'm just using that as as an example to say have we thought about other in- innovative approaches to making sure that we are not disrupting learning, we're honoring the legacy of Lillian. Um and Well, yeah, those are the two main reasons. So, I just want to We have a We're a little over time, but I'm willing to go to about 5:40 so cuz we have teachers, semifinalists waiting for us as well, so and then we continue the dialogue at the other side of the meeting. Um But, just to be mindful of time, so we have about 8 minutes. So, I can answer part of the ball field because I have officiated on the ball field. It's not the First of all, it's really crummy as a lot of

186middle school ball fields go. Can I Can I Can I push back on that? May I? I'm sorry. Well, let me finish though. Okay. Um it doesn't extend all the way, so that whole area So, the the blank area we see where the ball fields are is not the entire ball field. So, it's it's a little deceiving. It's It's easy if you go out there and walk it, but that aside, here's my I object entirely to the idea of saying staff figure out the budget. They have presented budgets to us. We are in charge of budgets just like we This is We have two budgets. We have the CIP and and then we have the superintendent's budget and we have to find money for things. That's our job. We are presented with the cost of

187things and we have to make those decisions. Phase two or option two is over budget and it's the longest one. I have received zero emails and that doesn't mean that everyone would email me, but we get a lot of the same emails. I've received zero emails for anything other than option three. As a board as a board member individual, I we will honor the history. We have to be fiscally responsible to some degree. I we are hurting with our budgets already. And if we do option two, then Terry goes Terry High School, what happens to that? And then all the other schools, that includes Hunters probably on that list, East Garland is on that list, all of these things. It is a cascade. Okay? If it was I told Mr. Strickland this, if it was

188like $10 million, I would have been on option two. But that cost, it really pushed me and we don't have all this excess money. And we are going to tell voters support this it is a sizable sizable bond that is probably coming that we need for all of these projects. It is our job to ensure that if we did option three, that it absolutely honors all that history and legacy the best that can be done. And by the way, for the multi-purpose event suggested, why don't we turf that to make it a really nice field? I have brought that up to staff. Um and to provide that kind of field for the community there, too. And we talked about naming different things and we found some really great stuff. It is something that and is

189incumbent upon us and but for me as a board member, the idea of going a long the longest project over price when we have all these other things and we got a bond coming up, I just think that's a mistake um for us to get sent to the public. And what's that what's the message to the public on that? I'm going to inquire. Sorry. I'm done. Can I ask a process question? We're just we're going to take an up or down vote on on one of these, right? That's the plan and That is the plan. Up or down? Okay. Ms. Rice. Yeah, I just wanted to follow through with what Mr. Hershey's saying. I I think the intent of what I am sharing about not um supporting phase three and and why I'm saying phase

190two is not that I am um omitting the cost. The challenge is that I am not sure of the realities of the real cost versus what's being shared, what we've seen in the past, or the points that Mr. Hershey's brought up, some of the things that I've seen, some of the reasons why I asked certain questions even in other meetings that we have on an executive level when I was watching about the changes of the cost and if I asked those questions for a reason when I was in those meetings because I was looking at what costs were or were not and that happens and while we're saying this is what phase three will cost us and it's supposed to be so low I am curious as to what happens when we get there as

191some of the points that have been brought out when it changes, what we're going to say, what we're going to do that could have possibly gotten us what we wanted without having to I'm just curious and I and I with no disrespect, sometimes I don't have the faith that I would like to have in my staff that are making these decisions because of the track record, not because I feel any particular way, but because of the track record that I've seen. And so it brings me to the alarm of the reason why I say not to say it in ignorance, fix the budget. I'm not saying it in ignorance, I'm just saying what I have seen in the past. I'm saying what I've seen in other as over the 50-year process that Wake County has

192been in existence. I've seen that we do what we do when we want to do it, but we don't do what we do when we don't want to do it. And I've seen staff bring things to us that seems oh so great. And it's not necessarily the most sufficient thing to do, but it's what they might desire to do. But I know that as a board, yes, we have to look at budget and all of those other things, but we also reserve the right to say this is what we envision. We need you to get this done and within these reasons. Find the people and the cost because it makes me think that you've already done the bidding. You've already done all the other stuff that says this is what it is. So, I'm curious.

193Have we Have we already chosen everyone that's going to do the building? Everyone that's going to do the materials or whatever thing that it is that's driving this cost to that level? How other detailed people have we looked at with the mobile units? I We went to the SBA fair. We There were all these vendors out there. People who even gave strong recommendations of schools in other counties that have been destroyed due to natural disasters and the students had to be displaced as well into mobile units and they gave a great recommendation of spaces of people who rebuilt that and students had to be in there as well and it did not disrupt anything and it was a reasonable cost. And this county is no way near the affluence of Wake. So, I'm simply saying

194I'm not saying that staff isn't capable, but I do question some of the choices that are presented before us and elevated in the way that it wants to be elevated. And then we sit back and have to make a choice based off what someone else's preference was, not what's really the >> Based off what someone else's preference was, not what's really the right preference. And that's all. Do you or your staff have any Yeah, I do, but I'll I'll for the sake of time, uh, I know it's 5:39 and so I can share those when we get to the action item and address many of the questions that we've had. We'll adjourn our work session. I need to get the straight edge. So you're ready for taking that hearing in the I have to look

195at the food colors. I know I'm working out there, but it's uh Well, they'll be on my 10 on each side. Could you take a picture for me there?