2025-12-02 Work Session

001All right, everyone. Good morning or now good afternoon. Today is Tuesday, December 2nd, 2025 and the Wake County Board of Education work session will come to order. Um today we have two items on our agenda. Uh the employee ombuds policy and the international exchange student policy. Then uh depending on what time we finish, we may go into a closed session just to try to move some of our closed closed session agenda items um off our off our calendar a little bit earlier before our meeting. At this point, I'm going to uh recognize uh Dr. Crane and Neil Ramey to take us through the ombuds policy. We had the went through the presentation at the policy committee meeting and uh what we did not get to is really review the actual draft. So, the draft language

002is in Simbli for you if you want to pull that up and I'll turn it over to either Dr. Crane or Mr. Ramey. Um we did uh this presentation is also provided as backup information in Simbli. Um when we overviewed it, we kind of gave the historical background, what an ombuds does, maintain a neutral role, receive complaints, provide information, supports informal dispute resolution. Informal is a keyword there. And identify and report recurring issues to inform prevention. How might they report that? Um I think I referenced um the International Ombuds Association has uniform reporting categories. Here, I've got a copy of what that looks like. Um so, this is one way that can be reported um what is coming in as a uh dispute or complaint or request for information. How might that get reported out?

003This is one way that can happen. What does an ombuds not do? They don't accept claims. They do not conduct formal proceedings. They do not conduct formal investigations. They don't make decisions and they don't advocate. This is a a neutral position. Um the core values of an ombuds, act with honesty and integrity, promote fairness and support fair process, remain non-judgmental um with empathy and respect for individual differences to promote dignity, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Endeavors to be an accessible, trusted, and respected informal resource. There's that word again, informal. Communicates accurate understanding um and then promotes individual empowerment, self-determination, and collaborative problem-solving. The four fundamentals of an ombuds practice are independence in that they are not aligned with either the formal leadership of the district or um the employee the employees. Uh we're talking about

004employee ombuds here. Um they are impartial. It is informal and it is confidential. Um there are some exceptions to that regarding mandatory reporting requirements. Those are addressed specifically by policy title and number in the policy. And so, I'm going to back up to this slide. We made it through these prior um but I'm going to leave it here and then I'm going to turn things over um to Mr. Ramey who's going to walk you through the policy draft. The policy as I understand it establishes the guidelines um for the responsibility and responsibilities of a Wake County Public School System employee ombuds. Again, this isn't just an employee ombuds policy. Yeah, an ombuds for employees. >> An ombuds for employees. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Crane. So, I'll just uh um walk you all through the section

005by section like staff normally do. Since I actually drafted this policy, um it is based on the history of the policy. It is based on very closely on a policy that I developed for Orange County Schools, which in turn was based primarily on a policy for the Pasadena um California school system. But, in working with Orange on this, we reviewed I think five or six different school board ombuds policies and kind of drew from the best from most of them from all of them, mostly from the Pasadena policy. That's That's where this came from. And you'll see as we walk through the structure and content of policy that it aligns with the general principles that Dr. Crane just summarized, which are all from the International Ombuds Association. So, the idea is we're not reinventing the

006wheel here. This is a a clearly defined role. It's not We're also not planning to change your current policies on investigations and appeals. You already have very formal processes that align with the state's statute, in some cases federal statutes, say with Title IX. Um so, we're There's no change to any of that. This is an overlay, an additional resource for employees, confidential resource for them for them to call, uh zoom in, have an in-person meeting with them to talk through their issues, see how they might be able to address them successfully through formal channels, or if necessary, here's the Here's your grievance policy. You can You can pursue a grievance. So, section starting with the first section of the policy, section A, purpose. Uh the the first sentence may be the most important in the

007policy. It gives you the general purpose of an employee ombuds. So, I'll just read that. The purpose of the employee ombuds is to provide school system employees with access to an independent, impartial individual who can help facilitate a confidential and informal resolution of concerns, conflicts, and issues arising within the Wake County Public School System, and is authorized to bring systemic and organizational concerns to the attention of the superintendent and Board of Education. And the consults are confidential, but the ombuds would be reporting to you on any sort of patterns or or systemic issues that the ombuds identifies. Uh the the section of the policy goes on to explain that ombuds consultations are not a substitute for any mandatory reporting requirements. So, for example, any crimes against minors, child abuse, seclusion and restraint, these are all

008things that have to be uh reported, and calling the ombuds does not discharge those responsibilities for your staff. Uh it go It also explains that the policy is not a replacement for formal complaints and grievances. For example, a racial discrimination claim, there's a very formal process for investigation, written report, and appeals from those things. And this is not intended to supplant any of those formal procedures. Uh this section of the policy emphasizes that ombuds services are entirely voluntary. So, no employee can ever be told that you must consult check with the ombuds, or, you know, you you can't be a required uh step for for resolving any concern. Uh this section also notes that the uh ombuds guidance to individual employees does not create enforceable rights or bind the school system. So, the idea here

009would be if we have hoped the ombuds would be very careful in reviewing policies and and such and giving good, accurate guidance to employees, if the ombuds were to make a mistake, that doesn't bind the board. So, for example, if a if an appeal comes to you in a formal setting, and you and you notice in the appeal there's reference to an ombuds consultation, the ombuds got something wrong, you're not stuck with the incorrect interpretation the ombuds gave you. So, apply your policies uh as you see fit in consultation with legal counsel. And then finally, this section notes that um the ombuds is subject to the International Ombuds Association Code of Ethics, uh which really is kind of outlines these principles that that Dr. Crane has on the screen. Uh but, to the extent there

010may be any conflict, just in case there's a conflict, I don't believe there is, but if there were to conflict were to arise, the policy trumps the International Code. Uh section A, section B describes the scope of authority and independence of the ombuds. It's very important that the ombuds not be subject to any undue influence. Um so, in this section, the the policy emphasizes that the ombuds works independently, is not subject to control, limitation, influence, or interference by any administrator, other employee, or even a board member. We're We're very specific about that. Nobody tells uh the ombuds how to do their job. The ombuds is acting independently and in your favor. Uh however, the ombuds is The policy does acknowledge that the ombuds is subject to supervision by the superintendent and the board for budget,

011budgetary, and evaluation purposes. So, in terms of funding the the efforts of the ombuds, or determining if the ombuds is doing a good job, if the contract should be renewed, those are valid ways for you to oversee the ombuds. Uh the the this section of the policy notes that the ombuds is also subject to board policies just like your employees are. So, for example, anti-discrimination and harassment policies, the ombuds has to comply with them same as everybody else. Uh it states that the ombuds must remain neutral and can't hold other positions in the school system or elsewhere that would compromise his or her independence. So, we don't want any any sort of conflict of interest in in in dual roles. It notes that the ombuds can't make binding decisions, adjudicate disputes, participate in formal investigations,

012or formal grievance complaint resolution processes. Again, the ombuds is an independent advisor and can help facilitate informal resolutions. The ombuds is not a mediator or a um an arbitrator, not an investigator. The ombuds doesn't, you know, take an issue and run with it uh and decide the outcome. The The section of the policy also notes that the board determines the level of funding and support after receiving the recommendations of the superintendent. Again, that's a the valid way that you oversee the ombuds is in budgetary. Uh and there's language here that preserves flexibility as to who the ombuds is. So, the idea Dr. Taylor's uh planned approach is to hire an independent contractor at least initially to serve in this role. And I think the idea there is that's an extra layer of an issue of

013of insulation. What When this is a new concept, employees may be have a little more peace of mind. This isn't even a school system employee. Um but, really, you'll see organizations do ombuds both with independent contractors and with employees. It can work both ways, and the Code of Ethics allows both approaches. It's just important that whether the person is an independent contractor or an employee, they are outside the normal chain of command in terms of their consultations with the individual staff members, that they're not subject to uh someone telling them how to do their job on a day-to-day basis. You You could do it either way, and the policy preserves flexibility so that you can start I think the plan is to start with an independent contractor. If you decided to shift gears, you wouldn't

014need to revise the policy. That's it for section B. Uh section C is about protection from retaliation. It prohibits retaliation against the ombuds and anyone who may be the subject of a complaint, say an employee uh comes to the ombuds and uh and talks about uh concerns about a supervisor, and the ombuds advises the employee they can file a grievance, and now that supervisor is upset at the ombuds. Well, that supervisor is prohibited from retaliating against the ombuds for giving impartial advice to the employee. And this section of the policy also states that only the board can again pro- protect the ombuds um and the integrity of the ombuds office. It states that only the board can demote, reassign, or remove the ombuds from office. Regardless of whether this is an employee or an independent

015contractor, the superintendent can only offer recommendations on the employment or service contract. The board makes the final decision. Okay, so that's another another additional protection for your ombuds. Section D uh talks about the standards of practice. Again, it's pretty closely parallels the International Ombuds Association uh Code of Ethics, part one, but we've added language to address some um issues that arise under state law. Part one is about the receipt of concerns and confidentiality issues. It states that reiterates that services are voluntary. Anyone may suggest an ombuds consult, but no one may require one. It notes that the ombuds may not communicate with board members or staff who refer someone to the ombuds about what was discussed. That remains confidential as to the person who met with the ombuds. So, again, the only information that the

016board and the superintendent would get about the uh consultations is a quarterly report or supplemental reports that the board may request that do not identify the individuals, but that do identify systemic issues, trends, organizational concerns that you need to be aware of. And that's to protect the integrity of the consultation process so employees are comfortable to fully disclose their concerns to the ombuds. Uh this section of the policy also authorizes the ombuds to consult in person, virtually, by phone, or in writing. That's something the ombuds can work out directly with the employee. Uh it emphasizes that consults are confidential to the maximum extent possible [clears throat] and allowed by law. But, it does acknowledge that confidentiality is not an absolute guarantee, and it notes some of the exceptions that could come into play. One is

017if the ombuds reasonably believes that disclosure is necessary to prevent or mitigate an imminent risk of harm to someone. That's your classic duty to warn situation. If the ombuds is uh someone shares information with the ombuds, the ombuds now knows someone's at risk, at imminent risk of harm, there may be a duty to to uh breach confidentiality to the extent necessary to prevent that harm. Um it also notes that there may be disclosures that are required by law. The clearest examples there would be a subpoena or court order, uh which would be binding on the ombuds just as they would be on any other um any employee. Uh but, we follow we follow process in always in terms of responding to legal documents. Uh the next exception that's noted is uh seems unlikely, but in

018case there were a legal claim against the ombuds, uh, the ombuds can reference the information to defend that claim. So, if an employee consults with an ombuds, and then say later uh, is sues the ombuds for giving bad advice that the employer relied on uh, to their detriment, then the employee the ombuds can reference that conversation in defending that claim by the employee. That's a that's a common exception you'll see in other policies as well. Uh, it uh, this section also notes that if the ombuds receives information about possible child abuse or criminal offense uh, that's subject to mandatory reporting, that there's a process for that. The ombuds is to first refer that person that person to whoever is responsible for making the reports under your other policies. So, if it's a concern about mistreatment

019of a student um, by another student at school, that would be a probably be a report to be submitted by the principal. The ombuds would refer that person, you need to have report this to the principal for mandatory reporting. If the person does not do so, the ombuds is then required to make the report. So, we don't want any mandatory reports to law enforcement or the like falling between the cracks. Uh, there's a section on personnel records here it that says that basically to the maximum extent possible, the employee who's reaching out to the ombuds to about concerns that they have about their work environment, that will be treated as a confidential uh, personnel consultation and any emails or records that that are generated would be to the maximum extent allowed by law considered personnel

020records of that employee who comes to consult with the ombuds. However, the flip side, if the employee is sharing concerns about a coworker or supervisor, let's say, the it isn't the policy says this would not be considered a personnel record of that coworker or supervisor. This the person that the employee has concerns about. And that's so that that person doesn't have a right to access the communications. That makes sense? They remain confidential to the person who needs help. Uh, if you're complaining about your boss, we don't want the boss to be able to come in and see what what you said about him or her in an email to the ombuds. So, that's the idea there is is to have have it work as a sort of a one-way ratchet. Uh, this part of the

021policy next notes that the ombuds will create documentation only as necessary to perform functions or as required by law and will keep those documents confidential to the maximum extent possible. That's what I've been told by a number of people is that ombuds practice similar to school counselors is not to document a lot of stuff uh, because it's so important that we protect confidentiality that we don't want to generate a lot of records that then there might be exceptions or or or accidental disclosures. Um, so they're really going to mostly be private consultations with without a lot of generation of records. Um, the next this section of the policy next prohibits the ombuds from responding to media or public record requests about any confidential concerns. That's what uh, just you know, either get referred to communications

022or there'll be no response. The uh, and then it states that the job description or service contract uh, for the ombuds will identify ways that the employee may assist employees. So, it's not just the don'ts. We've discussed the don'ts that the employee will not conduct formal investigations, adjudicate disputes, etc. But there this is a list of list of what things they can do to help employees. And it includes uh, listing and helping to clarify a constituent's concerns, providing information um, of that's uh, to constituents about um, resolution options, whether it's a formal grievance policy, informal opportunity to resolve an issue, letting letting the people come to their office know about their options, providing internal external resources available to support the employee. There may be employee support programs, uh, benefits, uh, administrators who have expertise in

023certain areas who may be able to to research issues. It's kind of a conduit of information being able to refer people uh, within the organization to other available resources. And uh, finally facilitating informal discussions or mediations if all parties agree to participate. And the ombuds can't force everyone to get down to sit at a table and resolve an issue, but the ombuds can encourage those uh, types of informal resolutions and if they they don't work out, that then the ombuds can tell the employee about the formal dispute resolution processes that are available. Um, and this section also clarifies that the ombuds has the sole discretion to decide which of these options would best apply in any situation. So, there's going to be a lot of judgment and discretion um, in in exercise of these job

024duties. There's a caveat that the ombuds will never offer legal advice or act as an advocate for any person. So, that um, impartiality is is the watchword. The ombuds is not taking sides. The ombuds is listening carefully, respectfully, and non-judgmentally, and helping suggest ways to resolve an issue without taking sides in the dispute. Uh, the next subpart of this section uh, is is about access to records. This is part two. It establishes that the ombuds is a quote school official for FERPA purposes. That means that it's not unlawful for the ombuds to inspect student records that are necessary to discharge his or her job duties. Um, so that's good. The ombuds would be bound by FERPA to not re-disclose documents except in accordance with your policies on student records and and federal law. But it

025could be it would be okay for this ombuds to receive student records um, to do their job. It also uh, this section also clarifies that the ombuds may not access the personnel records of any third party, any person other than the person who's consulting with them or or really any person at all without their consent. So, the ombuds cannot go into the HR and start digging through personnel files to you know, to see to check out prior those that would be a misdemeanor. Um, so we have to be really careful about that. Part three is on neutrality and independence. It states that the ombuds must be neutral and independent, treat everyone with respect, and consider the interest of all affected persons. It states that the ombuds must must not be aligned with any associations that

026create conflicts of interest or even the appearance of a conflict, but may meet with such groups to explain the role of the service of the ombuds. So, not precluded from meeting with advocacy groups, for example, but really shouldn't be a member of an advocacy group that would then uh, could potentially be a party in a dispute that might come before the ombuds. And finally uh, the ombuds may not serve on any school system task force or committee or have an interest in the state or or outcome of any issue under review. Common sense um, uh, independent uh, sorry, conflict of interest rules. Mr. Neil, which where was that last part? >> Uh, this is also in part three um, neutrality and independence. Those are the points that are covered in that section. And then part

027four um, is about access to legal counsel. So, given that the ombuds would be giving advice on disputes and concerns that could very well implicate statutory requirements, other policies, um, and legal legal concerns. Could be bullying, harassment, discrimination, things like that through the Title IX complaint. Those are the types of things that might come up. We thought it was important that the ombuds be able to get good uh, solid legal advice. So, there's provision that says the ombuds may contact the school system attorneys as needed. Uh, we did also think about the potential for conflicts that could arise there. Let's say the ombuds is uh, consulting with an employee um, and on a on a personnel matter uh, thinks the supervisor is giving really unfair evaluations and is trying to you know, trying to force

028them to resign. If we were already advising the administration on that employee, we would not be the best resource for the ombuds to have legal counsel. So, in that case, the ombuds and the school system attorneys are allowed to consult and offer recommendation to the superintendent board that there be separate counsel appointed for ombuds um, if that were to happen. One one way or the other, if there is a tricky legal sort of thing, we want to make sure that the ombuds has the ability to get good legal guidance. Uh, that leads us to section E, which is on the impact of the ombuds consultations on notice requirements and deadlines. This section clarifies that contacting the ombuds does not create any exception or extension to any legal or policy deadlines. So, for example, there there

029might be a deadline for filing a lawsuit, statute of limitations, there might be a deadline under your policies for filing a particular type of grievance. So, calling the ombuds doesn't create an automatic tolling or extension of those deadlines. Everybody is responsible for following whatever deadlines um, are imposed by law or policy on formal complaints and grievances. Um, section F uh, is called limitations. It reiterates that the ombuds may not accept formal complaints or conduct investigations. So, they're to uh, assist with voluntary informal attempts to resolve concerns. You'll see that is permeates the policy because it's very important to say what the ombuds can do and can't do. Section G uh, is about involvement in internal or external investigations, complaints, or grievances. Again, it reiterates that the ombuds may not intervene or participate in formal complaints,

030investigations, grievances, uh, whether external or external. That would apply, for example, to an EEOC complaint, an OCR investigation, a social services investigation. Whenever we have a formal process, that's the ombuds steps out at that point. The ombuds' role is to provide impartial guidance to the employee who calls, not not to get involved in formal investigations and complaints. Section H, withdrawal, just simply advises that the ombuds has discretion to withdraw or decline to assist if um, his or her involvement would be inappropriate. Examples would be a concern not raised in good faith, uh, a misuse of the ombuds function, they're not really asking me to do something I can do for you, or if there is a formal review process ongoing. If you're if you've got a a board appeal on a formal grievance pending, it's

031not a good time for an informal ombuds consult on the issue, for example. And then the last two sections, section I, is data collection and reporting. Mentioned at the outset that in addition to the individual consults, we do want the ombuds to keep the board apprised of systemic issues without breaching confidentiality as to the individuals who come forward. So, the requirement here is that the ombuds it it specifically states that it's an important function of the ombuds to identify general trends, broader issues, systemic concerns. It requires the ombuds to provide quarterly reports with no identifying information that sub would summarize those issues. As Dr. What Orange County Public Schools ombuds has done is as Dr. Crane has shared, there's the ombuds reporting guidelines. That's exactly what he does. He reports in the categories that align

032to the International Ombuds Association. Say we had 13 It's not that many, but three complaints in category C, two complaints in category one. He'll produce little pie charts so you can see patterns and trends emerge. Um the this section also says the board can request supplemental reports at any time. So, you get at least a quarterly report from the ombuds. At but anytime you want an update, you can ask for one. And it also says if this concerns are significant enough, the ombuds will bring them to the board's attention immediately. You don't wait for a quarterly report if the ombuds is getting extremely troubling reports that suggest a trend or an issue that needs to be addressed immediately, the ombuds can escalate that quickly. Again, confidentially without identifying information, but that's the idea. And then

033the final section, very brief, on operational guidelines. Uh often you'll see policies authorize the superintendent to develop regulations. This says the ombuds develop operational guidelines, not the superintendent, because he is he or she is operating outside of the chain of command. But the ombuds can can operate develop operational guidelines so long as they're consistent with this policy and the International Code of Ethics for ombuds. That's a summary and overview. I'm happy to take any questions. All right. Thank you for allowing me. Um Appreciate everyone looking at the policy. It's very detailed. Um but it's it's setting up something new, and so staff has really tried to anticipate all the different possible outcomes and set something up as a model. Um There was one section that I'd gotten some questions about that I wanted to ask

034you about. If you look at section I guess two different sections. Section D, standards of practice, subsection three, neutrality and impartiality. It says the ombuds shall not serve on any school system committee or task force, and shall have no interest or stake in, and shall incur no gain or loss from the outcome of any issue reviewed by the ombuds. But particularly the first half of the sentence, the ombuds shall not serve on any school system committee or task force. Um And then further down in G, involvement in internal external investigations, unless otherwise required by law, the ombuds shall not intervene or directly participate in any internal or external investigations, complaints, or grievances, including but not limited to and then they enumerate several. One thing that I've seen ombuds do in other organizations, and it goes

035back to that ombuds standards of practice which we referenced, is in their general practice standards, ombuds often work with the organizations to identify potential systematic issues. Right? So, they have a standard of practice 1.3 that says the ombuds assists the organization by identifying procedural irregularities and systematic problems. This may include identifying emerging trends, policy gaps, patterns of problematic behaviors in ways that do not disclose confidential information or communications. They may provide general recommendations to the organization for addressing these concerns. And so, that's sort of like a regular function that many ombuds have, and I just wonder if the policy language here would prohibit that. Like if there was a role for an ombuds to serve in you know, a structural review or a compensation review, or if we looked at grievances or due process policies,

036and we'd had a lot of input you given to an ombuds, if an ombuds could serve in that role even in an ex officio role. Yeah, that's an excellent thought. I think from memory, I believe the language the ombuds shall not serve on any school system committee or task force came from the Pasadena policy that we used as a model for the Orange policy that we used as a model. So, I don't think that was by design from staff or myself that we're we're specifically recommending that to you. And I think that's a good point. To my mind, it would not be inconsistent for the ombuds I think the idea is to protect against an appearance of impropriety if the ombuds is on a lot of uh task force and or committees that give the

037impression the ombuds has a point of view. That could be problematic, but it may you're you're you make a good point if there's not a compensation committee or employee benefits committee, and the ombuds has been fielding calls for a year, you know, about these types of issues, that might be helpful input that could um I don't I don't see that problem with that level of participation. Do you, Dr. Crane? I don't. Based on the your review of the International I don't think that would be a problem problem. I think we could change the language to either take out that not serve on a task force altogether or modify it to to >> Even if it was like a limited role, like an ex officio role. Yeah. Right, where they're not involved in making a decision,

038but they can see and they can advise. I think it'd be very valuable to have that input, and then again in part of that reporting back to the board or reporting back to the superintendent, be able to justify you know, where where they might see trends. Yeah, I I would agree. Again, I think it would be important sometimes if they can look at that particular process, and then be able to say that this is why I'm seeing these trends. Doesn't necessarily mean that they're involved in the in that particular process, but getting feedback and an observation can help uh alleviate some of the problems that might be arising. So, I think that makes sense. Okay. Thank you. All right. Other questions or comments, Ms. Edmonds? Thank you. Um in section B, the very last sentence,

039where it talks about it could be filled by one or more school system employees. I heard clearly that it's um Dr. Taylor's intention to get a outside contract contractor in the first um iteration of this. But I really think we need to strike that altogether. Um you know, we revise policies often, sometimes twice in a 12-month period, and we could always add it back in if we think it's important. But because this is a new policy, and it would be a new practice, I just think you know, that we need to strike that. Um Because if we leave that in, then I see no really no difference in many of our practices now with folks that are in the HR department. They're supposed to be impartial when a there's an employee complaint. That already exists,

040and I think this just really waters it down unnecessarily. And again, if we as a board or a future board wants to add it back in, it can be added back in. So, what you would be suggesting I take it as that the policy specifically state that the ombuds should be an independent contractor. >> Correct. And you could change that later. But yeah. >> To me, it's spelled out in two different sentences. So, I think what I'm I think it would work for for the spirit of what I'm saying is just to strike that last sentence in section B. But if staff disagrees, cuz the prior sentence Well, I guess my only thought just to clarify that is >> Or about one or more Never mind. I see what you're saying. Yeah, cuz that that

041sentence says you can you could be either way. If the board wants to specify that it would be an independent contractor, then we just strike at the board's discretion and say the ombuds position shall be filled by an independent contractor. And you're right, you could revise the policy. That would just mean that you couldn't shift gears as quickly without you'd have to revise the policy before you could change the position. That's all. >> Yeah, I understand that. Um but that is my feedback. Mr. Chair, let's get thoughts on this point first. Um Ms. Rice, do you have a response to that, or do you have a new another point? >> a response to that. Response to that, go ahead. Um I would be in agreement with um Ms. Edmonds. Um for one for one of

042the things points that I do have, if this ombudsman is to be what we say, um separate, um and independent, I want staff to feel as comfortable as possible to know that there can't be any influence within the district to how they are listening to the ombudsman on the uh that support, so that they'll be free um a little bit more to share um their thoughts and seek support, and that the ombudsman also feels um safe with being able to share resources that would support what they're coming and asking for. So, that was in response to that. Thank you. Before we move on, any other thoughts in response to this point? I'm also in agreement with that. I'm wondering if we really want to you know, to stress that point, is it possible to take

043the language in section B, perhaps, to move it further up, um so it's pretty much top of the the policy, so folks don't really have excuse me, have to scroll through. It really takes what we're saying, an independent outside person, you know, building this this serving as a liaison for the district. So, I'm wondering should be move up um or how do you want to really express that throughout the part? So, that part is laid out very clearly. Okay. So, listening to three different parts of feedback about that, this is on the fly a little bit, but perhaps taking there's a sentence here that captures that independence and neutrality that says the ombuds shall remain impartial and neutral and shall hold no other position within or beyond DVCPS that might otherwise compromise their independence. So,

044what I'd like to what I propose is we take that sentence. Do you see it in B? And we move that up to be the first sentence in B. And then the next sentence, what's currently the first sentence, although let's see. We say we take out um the word although and then the next word is the ombuds shall function independently from control, limitation, influence, or interference from any board member, administrator, or school superintendent. Um And you know and that's where we put the language about being filled by one or more independent contractors by the board. And then we leave the rest of that sentence, the ombuds shall be supervised for budgetary and evaluation purposes by the superintendent on the board. So, we put that right up at the beginning that there's that they are neutral,

045they are independent, they will be a contractor. Again, any contractor you'd still want supervised, right? There has to be some accountability, but we would we would just break that up the budgetary and the budgetary and evaluative purposes. That's basically within the contract you could decide if you wanted to keep them, retain them, or go in another direction, but you're not in any way micromanaging or anything like that. But, I would I would I would still keep the purpose at the beginning of the policy. That's just what Mr. Ramirez I have a problem with that. That last sentence that says the evaluate pretty much the person will be evaluated by the superintendent and the board. >> Mhm. That could be a potential conflict if we're only responsible for the superintendent. This language is saying that the

046board now has two employees that they're responsible for. So, I think to make it a little consistent, I would I would recommend that we just say that um the superintendent should evaluate this person. Um Okay. Therefore, we're not it doesn't it's not conflicting. >> I have some feedback on that, but I want to hear from Mr. Ramirez first. >> Yeah, I'm a I'm in a little I agree with um the the last portion, but I'm in agree disagreement with the last statement um simply because the evaluation piece um I don't know within the aspects of our law of what we can do which I think it which I think is why um why Mr. Swanson stated that about what the board can do or whatever is, but um if the person's evaluation is coming from

047the superintendent and the ombuds is indicating a contractor and we're talking about one of the words I wrote down was I could be very polite, human factors. Can we put human factors into this space? Um is that still not a indirect sway? Um versus the board who has is really about the system as a whole um for an evaluation or what that might look like? And it may be um I don't know what it looks like. I guess that's a question for us all to ask around the evaluation piece. >> Mhm. But, I am concerned that if this person is supposed to be about the entire district um and you talk about leadership people who have to report to the superintendent and if they have complaints or if they have suggestions and things that they're

048having struggles with and if this is really for the good of all of our staff, I just think there are some human factors in there that would sway around can I really go and talk to this ombudsman and I'm in a leadership role? Um and so, I just want us to one not make superintendent Taylor in a bad spot where he can't get the positive feedback that I think that he's looking for um with wanting this position and two for their leadership team not to really provide their honest feedback or supports of what they need um when they run into challenges. So, that's just kind of my thoughts around it. So, let's build on that a little bit. I'll direct the question to either Mr. Ramirez or Mr. Malone. Um to Mr. Swanson's point about

049the [clears throat] board supervising employees, bless you. I know that in some districts we say the board supervise the board's responsible for only the superintendent, but in some districts, particularly some smaller districts, the board attorney is the board's attorney and really is kind of like hired and any feedback it is from the board. And in some districts the town what they'll have a board clerk specifically as well who sometimes reports and is is evaluated directly by the board. So, is there any prohibition to the super to an ombuds reporting you know to a board? >> I I don't think so. Brad, can chime in. I From the ombuds standpoint, no. And and in fact, both models are common that the ombuds who's an employee or an independent contractor, either way I think the board wants

050to have some largely have direct oversight because that person has to be outside the chain of command. You The whole idea is that employees are confident that the superintendent or some you know, powerful person in central office isn't telling them what to do. Yeah. Um so, yes, that could be done. And especially if you're if you're inclined to make this an independent contractor or not an employee, there's no statutory issue there. That's where it would become an issue. Like you can't directly supervise teachers for example because by statute there's there's a specific role uh for the superintendent to recommend their hire and their contract extensions and the board makes the decision based on the superintendent's recommendation. That's not the case with an independent contractor. So, then building on that, I think what I'm hearing and

051I invite the rest of you to chime in, you know, I think we ultimately want there to be accountability directly to the board. But, I will also say when it comes to like supervision, just like you can have the CEO at the top and there is supervision down the line, it shouldn't necessarily be the board that's like approving the ombuds order for pencils and paper, right? >> Right. And there's there's administrative ministerial functions that should I think you know, go through the superintendent, but it would just be that final evaluation or renewal of a contract that would come through the board. I don't have language that specifically would capture that, but it would be more that the superintendent would be the day-to-day supervisor, but then the the position would be accountable to the board if

052you have some way to capture that. Or Mr. Ramirez. Based off what you just said about you know, ordering logistics and things like that, I don't even know and I'll put it to the parts that we're reading, it's not even the superintendent has say because this person has to remain independent and neutral to in order to best um support what this policy is saying that it's going to do. Uh I think um if when it within this contract, it can be a specific person or something if they need I don't know an office supply, I don't know if that's going to be cuz we according to the language here determines how much funding um and things that they will get to do what they need to do. It could be they order their own stuff

053within the budget that is allotted that is for supplies um that are um daily supplies or whatever like that that would need if we're going to talk about the example that you that you provided. >> coming up with that. >> Right. And so, um and if it's going to be a a a budget item for them, then I would think that that would possibly go to um Mr. Neider's department if it's something in reference to a invoice request or something that they need. So, this is the preview of what you have. This is within the budgetary means in which you have for this department. This is how you have to govern your money within your department. This is what you have to spend. And then since we're talking about money, it then it to me

054I'm I'm sure my other colleagues have other thoughts around it, but this is just me sharing mine. Um then that needs to funnel through the direct people where that channels the money if and they handle their own budget because they're independent. And speaking from someone in the professional world just like most of you understand independent contracting, you're responsible for your own stuff. Even when I'm doing a training for someone, they're responsible for paying me, but within my cost, it includes what it's going to cost when you purchase books, all the other things within it, materials, and you factor those pieces in. So, that may be some things we need to consider it as we as a team um or as we as a board look at what we're willing to give for this position. Okay.

055First of all. So, then are there other thoughts or do we have a way to capture that um line of accountability back to the board? Mr. Hershman. This is from my ignorance about what an ombuds does. Have we ever like an ombuds come in and lay out what exactly their role would be or what they envision or how they work in a school system or are we just kind of making this up based on what your knowledge is? Because I've never spoken with one. Nope. I don't know if like our chair mentioned the day-to-day aspect of it and that kind of threw me. So I'd like some like real clarity from somebody who's in this world. And I I don't know if that's part of the hiring process that we go through or who goes

056through that. Who goes through the hiring process if they report directly to us and all that? Yes, so we've actually spoken to a specific contractor and had extensive conversations with them about how they do the service on a contractual basis. In terms of an actual an employee, we haven't talked to a district in terms of how they do that. Based on all the conversation that we've had and the study that we've done, uh we know how that position would function. And it's the happens to be the same group that that Orange was this close to contracting with. They decided to go in-house for for cost reasons at the end of the day, but it's the same group. So I'm somewhat familiar with them. I'm sure they would be happy to come and speak with you.

057Dr. Crane and I researched you know the sort of ombuds ethics code of ethics and stuff that and the policy reflects that, but that would certainly be an option for you. I'm sure they would be happy to come and speak with you. >> The other reason I bring this up and it maybe I just need to do my own research and everyone is ready to go, but and that's fine cuz this is a board. But I don't know like the cost that we're planning on spending on an independent contractor, you know, so those are kind of factors and and I'm not saying that's but I'm also hearing about how tight budgets are and how does this impact or improve academics? All of those questions. So I don't really know what they do well enough to

058say that we're going to spend $350,000 a year on them. I don't care. I don't remember the quote. I don't know what the cost is. It might be a hundred. So one of the things that we really felt confident about the contractor is that it would allow us to control what that cost was and so we've had SMS in between 10 and 15,000. We can make adjustments based on how the volume changes over time. And so that is one of the things that we really wanted to do as the first step to really have that control over what the budget is. We also recognize that that funding that we would spend if we hired a person, it would probably be about the same, but the difference is that we weren't sure of what the volume

059might be and if one person was going to be enough. We do believe initially it's going to be lower till people get comfortable with it. But at this point, doing the contractor allows us to get comfortable with the position, allow employees to get comfortable, build that position and then if any point we need to pivot or with a contractor, you can do so. But if you have an employee, now you have a person that you have to deal with as you would any other employee. The other thing I'll add is and this is where I'm not sure from an evaluative purpose how we need to do this. Meaning the board and the superintendent. I think for logistical purposes, person going on professional development or ordering pencils, I think that's fine. I think the real question

060is is how do we evaluate the effectiveness either of the program or a person. And so let's say we hire a person, but the person is performing poorly. You know, how do we come to that determination? And and I'm still trying to work through that on my mind because I agree that if I'm the evaluator, then to some degree that person knows that I may have my thumb on the scale. But but if they perform poorly, how do we get to that? Is that something that the board wants to be involved in? I don't know. We're talking about one person that multiple people having to come to a conclusion about it. I'm still trying to work I can share a couple of other follow-ups. This just For the hiring purposes, if we're talking about someone

061who is going to be reporting directly to us and this was to your question about who a board hires and fires, are you guys hiring them or are we hiring them? And therefore when do we interview them or would we not be expected to interview them? We hadn't talked about in that level of detail, Dr. Taylor's got a recommendation in the in in back pocket. We'd wanted to get the policy to you first because it seemed to be a little cart before the horse to say hey, hire we recommend you hire this ombuds before you have a policy to go along with what the ombuds does. So that's the idea. A couple of points on the cost, I don't recall the exact quote that we got well and we haven't gotten that far in the

062contract negotiations with the group that that Dr. Taylor would like to contract with, but I think they were proposing flat rate billing which a little bit surprised me for a district your size because I could imagine the number of calls that we get could be anywhere between zero to you know, 500 a day. And but they I think that's what they were they were pitching. It's the same group that we worked with in Orange. The that board decided to go a different direction mainly cuz of cost concerns when we cuz we it's much much smaller district. They were concerned about a flat rate that might be a waste of money because there might be no activity for a whole month and they'd be paying a flat rate for that month. And so we asked for

063hourly rates and their hourly rates were I think $350 an hour. These are lawyers. They're trained ombuds. They're going to be I think pretty good at what they do. I I would have reasonably but it's not cheap. So the so the the flat rate billing is is the current approach that we would hope to manage costs if you go if you all go in this direction, but we we still have to negotiate the contract details with the with the group. Yeah, but the number of other questions around the table that I saw Mr. Boston, do you have a quick one? I did. I know Mr. Hershey talked about how does it improve academics, but I think if you have a teacher who has a complaint with an administrator or whatever the process and has not

064been able to get some some sort of due justice, this is how you can improve academics by making sure that a teacher has an outside person that they can go to that is trusted that is separate from the district. This is how I think a way that we can build that trust with folks. So you have teachers who can express their grievances, receive some sort of due process. It's a win-win. The same for an administrator and anyone else. It's it's just ensuring that we can be as transparent and finding ways Yeah, I I just wanted I didn't want that to sit out there. I agree with you. May I about everything that I've researched and read you used the word due process, right? That's a very formal term. When we talk about due process, now

065we're talking about employee relations, how complaints or grievances are filed, deadlines, response times, ability to get to a board hearing or superintendent review of decision. It really is an impartial thing and so having someone to listen to employees and to my this the bottom bit about promoting individual empowerment, self-determination, and collaborative problem solving really is in my understanding where the ombuds works with employees. So I gave the example during policy committee of sitting across the table from former superintendent McNeal. At the time I was probably a sixth year teacher and I had a question about something my principal did. So I asked him. And I thought, ooh, great teacher leadership. I'm asking superintendent my question. And his first response was, "Have you talked to your principal?" That is individual empowerment. He encouraged me to be

066empowered to take my concern to my principal or to my co-worker. Um for me to determine this is the you know, so it's less of a employees are going to get due process and more of a how can we inform and encourage employees to take action on their own behalf with speaking with their supervisor or beyond that or in what in a reference to what the formal processes are within the district with regard to complaints and grievances and employee relations. That's my two cents. Yes, the the other way that due process could be promoted though is that say say an employee comes to the ombuds and the ombuds suggests some some ways to informally resolve the issues and they're not successful. My supervisor says it's like talking to a brick wall. I can't get anywhere.

067None of this has worked. At that point, the ombuds may say, "Well, you do have a right to file formal grievances. Tell me more about the concern." Oh, this would actually be a harassment complaint. You know, this sounds like a harassment complaint under policy 1720 or this is a employee grievance under 747. Just navigating the formal process without being an advocate. It's not like the ombuds would say, "Let's sit down and write your complaint together." But helping provide that triage and understanding of the policies that are available. I think it's a very key part of the ombuds. They can promote due process in the in the long run. Thank you. So Ms. Caulfield and Ms. Rice and then I'll have one follow-up. I think you just answered some of my question cuz I was going

068to ask how we would use this and what do we currently use right now I'm assuming it's human resources is where they would wind up. Yeah, I mean if a person has an issue then they may talk with someone in HR and and kind of try and navigate the process and they're not able to mediate it then they would file a formal complaint if they will. Obviously the feedback to that the problem with that is if I'm talking with a person in HR do I feel they represent the interest of the district more than they do me and so that's I think probably what you all have heard more than anything an employee that has an issue with their supervisor they believe that if they talk to HR HR is really there to support that

069supervisor and not them. Now that's not the case what they do is look at each individual case and and really well they fall on the side of what's correct and it may be supporting the employee saying that you're correct or it may be saying well I'm sorry your supervisor is correct. But that is still really about perception so this process allows that ombuds to be able to engage with that employer with the employee to help work through that situation so it may not end up in a formal grievance process. I think what we find is that when people have an opportunity to talk through it then they can resolve the issue and not get into a formal process but that I think is the biggest issue that we do have a process but a person

070feels they really do represent the district and not me as an employee. Okay. Um so I guess my question is kind of like a three-legged one or maybe one answer. Um do we have examples of other schools that have used it and and how it has helped them or if this is new. Um and how many complaints do we get like say for example per month to warrant something where we would need an actual example um and how would we triage something like you gave an example of pencils versus you know somebody complaining about an employee that we're not spending $350 an hour for somebody to say you know I don't like the supplies that are in the classroom. Like how do we triage that to know that they're getting what they need but we're

071not paying for something that could be handled with the proper direction or it isn't really something to triage. So one one quick point is that the the current plan would be and certainly Dr. Taylor will update you maybe our plan is to get the policy you know ready to go and then very quick contract negotiations with this group and bring you a contract. We would get the pricing then but the current plan is is flat rate pricing so it would not cost you extra if the ombuds got a even a frivolous complaint or two and had to say well you know I'm sorry that the pen you don't have as many pencils as you like maybe you could ask your supervisor for more pencils and you know that's not going to be billed at as

072an extra cost that would be flat rate billing. It is a fair point if it's if it's per hour then I think we need contract neither of us speak to this. I think we would need some contractual limitations on what the ombuds could and could not charge for that would be a part of the scope of services. Mr. Neider did you have a comment and then we'll go to Mr. Watts? I want to make the comment because I do believe at this point it's important. Well the district superintendent and myself and a few others have spoken with eight potential vendors in this state eight eight potential vendors. Once a policy is established we intend to put this out to RFP. We will let that one contract or know that it's going out to RFP but

073we will take every potential vendor that is interested in submitting a proposal to us and a it's not really an interview when you're looking at it from a contract perspective. It's really an RFP review process where a rubric is established and then based upon whatever is in the rubric price is but that will only be one thing it's a service contract we're not required to go with the lowest price. That will be a part of the decision making process. Funding is also yet to be established. All right. Ms. Rice. Thank you I'm glad Mr. Neider brought it up because that was kind of my question here. It sounded like thank you for using the word proposal because it sounded like there was already a decision made and then we were just left to decide. I

074think I'm mistaken forgetting the conversation I had with Mr. Neider and Dr. Taylor. Well no it it wasn't it wasn't just you Mr. Neider both you and Superintendent both said hey we've already talked to this group and stuff and so it it just I mean we're listening we're listening to understand how where you're coming from. The other part that I think that Mr. Neider shared I still do have a concern with it just simply being an RFP because then it still takes it away from the hands of the board to decide these contractors so I don't know what that looks like. It would be your it would be your you you would you would select the contractor and you would essentially supervise the contractor. I mean I think that's the basic idea is that you

075know we can discuss the get back to the details about budgetary issues and you know to what extent do you want the superintendent to be able to manage the the independent contractor relationship without your guidance but I I would say hiring and firing you know are you that those would be board decisions. That's that I mean that's essential to keep the person outside of the chain of command and and preserve the impression for employees that that this person not afraid of losing his or her job because of angry administration. Yeah so that was that was primarily my my thing I I really want for for me I really want to stay within the language of this being an independent person. For me it is important in order for I think I understand the intent of

076this ombudsman and the intent of this policy is to improve our well-being relations within our district to improve the culture of our district to make sure that everybody has good working conditions and can do our best to provide your services for around student achievement. When teachers are okay students can be okay. I I greatly believe in that you guys know I believe in well-being but I am I really want us to keep a pulse I don't know how everyone else feels but I really want us to keep a pulse to how this plays out and I'm really just just listening just listening to understand and just listening to language that we're prematurely as some said using that this stays within the board's purview of how we move with this because of the intent I believe

077of the policy and that it doesn't get away from the nine people around the table. I'm those are those are my only concerns. Thank you. So actually what I'd like to do cuz we do have limited time we do have another policy I I will come back to you but I I want to provide just a little more context with all of this feedback and I think Mr. Amy you've heard the board concerns you've heard suggestions for edits here. Um I want to give you all a little his some historical context that the district had approved the creation of an ombuds position under the previous superintendent. But one of the challenges was that there was not a lot of clarity about what that position would do and it would be someone who would be here

078and it was even posted and we had applications and you know we had principals applying we had people that really did not have experience in dispute resolution applying. It was ultimately decided and then decided for us by budget issues that we could not bring in someone of that level at that time and so it sort of languished. And so with the concerns that have been brought to us about um you know by employees and others about HR concerns this ombuds model is something that has worked well in a lot of states and in a lot of different school systems but what we ran into is trying to learn from the lessons of the past it was sort of a chicken and egg thing we wanted to bring be able to bring a policy first rather

079than trying to say okay here's an ombuds now let's figure out what they do. The idea was to bring the ombuds first so then different people that provide that service can be kind of match you know what to put in an RFP and so I want to direct everyone to the core values and these are the things that you know we're just based on like Chapel Hill's model California model I will say that um you know knowing what Superintendent Moore had gone through you know I was able to say to tell Dr. Taylor if you want to do due diligence here are some large providers of these services in the Southeast and so if you're looking for someone that represents these core values call around right because the other thing is that even if it

080does report to us we'll still need like a budget estimate and it'll still need to come to us as a recommendation in the superintendent's budget and so you know I you know I did ask him if he was going to bring the policy to look at you know one the independence contractor versus the employee and to look at cost something that he wanted to recommend and so one of the things that we've identified is with the idea of a contractor, you would also have the independence, but you do have that scalability. And then, if this process works, I mean, well, we can always evaluate. If it doesn't work, we can scale it back, we can cancel it. But, if it does work and it does show improvement and the board in evaluating it decides that

081this is a good tool for the district, many districts have the same function not just for employees, but also for parents and students. And so, we would have a good model. And again, just in terms of cost control, we can see the benefits. And then, [clears throat] when you make those hard budget decisions, you can decide, you know, is this service, just like trying to decide between a counselor and a nurse or, you know, another teacher in this field versus, um, you know, um, an administrative position in that field, you'd have real practical experience to base it on. So, so, with that, um, I hope if we can if if if if we can get a policy that has everything in it that people want, we can then go forward from the policy and see

082then who or what we hire. But, having the policy helps us know like what we're going to do and and who we can look for. So, I'll do, um, Ms. Caulfield, Ms. Riser, and then if there's no one else, I would do want to end this item and then move to the next item on international exchange students before our work session time expires. Ms. Caulfield. I was just going to ask, um, since it is developing and we're talking about proposals before we even figure out what the contract's going to look like, that we have options. Cuz often times, we just receive the final thing to approve without knowing, well, what was the other option before we approve this one. So. Yeah, pretty much you would get something different. This should be a different process. I

083think it you wouldn't get just a recommendation to hire this company. You would get probably the proposals of of of anyone who responds. I would say in Orange, they got three responses to an RFP. There are not that many uh, organizations that provide that that are certified ombuds and provide ombuds services per se. A lot of lawyers will do this kind of work because it is, I mean, it is kind of a legal a little bit of a legal quasi-legal work. Uh, but but I I don't think there's that many in the area. There are not that many ombuds groups. So, probably I would anticipate you'd get two to five proposals would be some about what I'd expect. I would imagine those would all be in the materials for you to review. Ms. Riser. Um,

084one um, with that with with the RFP that we're coming out, are you are we only saying that these people can only be a certified ombudsman, since you just mentioned that it's typically lawyers who are and and I just, you know, lawyers seem to be kind of Be careful. You you pretty much you know how to keep it in the road. I mean, I I I appreciate, um, which is what pretty much fair and impartial when you go with what the facts are and that's the that's the boundaries in which I'm saying that you stay within. >> be a lawyer to be an ombuds, but they they often they tend to be the the group that had had a proposal for Dr. Taylor, they they I I know cuz I checked with them, their ombuds

085are attorneys also. But, not it's not necessarily the case and Right. So, I just wanted to see if it that it doesn't that we didn't we limit, but not limit cuz so we can get a good group of people cuz we also need people with a pulse, so to speak. The other thing that I had a question was I just, oh my god, I'm old. Oh, it was about fun it was about funding. It was about financing. I'm going to have to ask you later. It's work time. My brain is gone. Just just just to build on that though, you know, I know Mr. Ramirez said that most of them tend to be attorneys. The the the key skill anyone qualified for this work has to have is dispute resolution. And that was the problem

086with the previous process. And there's like references in here to documents that aren't necessarily provided in assembly, but like the International Ombuds Association and their standards. And when you go to that, you will find there are many thriving ombuds practices, just like mediators that aren't necessarily lawyers. So, you know, because it has not been as big a practice in the south and the southeast as the north, the midwest and the west coast, there's not as many offerings here. Um, but but the dispute resolution is the key. All right. Okay. Really quickly, I know we just as a example we're using about the the firm of the practice $350 an hour and they set a flat rate. Um, I do at some point want to come back around to that if we can because my only

087concern is we have 20,000 employees. And so, That's a lot. All right. All right. And we I know we're talking about a group, which means we're talking about a practice, which is not going to be necessarily one person, I'm assuming, if they're in this group. So, it's a a round table of folks, which is a little concerning, too. But, versus one person developing relationships who can actually monitor trends versus whoever's available within that practice come and make an appointment. So, that's my cuz that was my concern around the funding and the person and what does that look like dealing with 120 employees and getting people on a calendar to be able So, those are logistics, but I just wanted to raise that concern a little bit for me and the concern of having a firm

088versus a person that can't monitor like that. And and I think if we could approve a policy, then we would come back before there was any RFP or selection with like a work session to really dig into some of these issues, have maybe presentations, even if it was someone that was disqualified from bidding, but someone who could come in in an educational role and say, "Look, I'm not pitching your business, but I can tell you what an ombuds does, you know." All right, Ms. Edmonds and well, this will finish it up. Just procedural, do you envision this coming to policy next or another work session first? So, Or had you thought about that? I don't mean to put you on the spot. >> yeah, no, it had been the policy. Right. I was hoping that

089in work session, if we could get it to where we were comfortable, then we could bring it to, um, we could have the any amendments incorporated. It sounds like we've got some language we'd like incorporated, but then we could just bring it back to, um, like a board meeting in January for discussion. Okay. If that meets everyone's Would you want a motion on that? I would entertain one. So, you you would want to not bring it back to policy, but bring it directly to a board meeting for first reading? For the amended language and first reading? Well, that's that's that's a good point. Does anyone have thoughts on that? I think that this conversation about this needs to stay at the board table in session. Um, even if it has to go a couple of

090rounds of sessions, um, for with we just laid it for 45 minutes to an hour max, I'll I'll I'll tame my questions. Um, but I think it needs to stay at the board table. I don't think it needs to be, in my opinion, in committee. I think this is a conversation >> [cough] >> we need all of us to weigh in on as it comes versus being in committee where you can come or not come if you desire. I think Yeah, just to limit the confusion. Especially if it's going to be a board responsibility. All right. So, are we are we a good with bringing it back to the board for a first reading or are there any procedural issues that we would have? >> Well, for my my I think I got we got

091some good feedback on some restructuring and movement moving some pieces in section B. What I'm not entirely clear on is where we landed on there's a phrase that the super ombuds shall be supervised for budgetary and evaluative purposes by the superintendent and board. Did did you all want to us to revisit that, come up with something? >> just separating a little bit like It was just supposed to be board, I thought. That just remember that would mostly be the board understanding that there would, you know, they're not going to send their any expense stuff to us decide. Right. So, you you want us to come up with something that would give a more limited and prescribed role for the superintendent, but with the board providing basically the supervisory function. Yeah. But, what do you expect

092from the superintendent? I I would I would think that you would want to invite the superintendent's input. Hey, I got to tell you this, I'm getting complaints about the ombuds, you should be aware. You know, that would be helpful information from the superintendent. It doesn't determine the outcome, you determine the outcome. Um, so, that might be an a an evaluative function, but ultimately, in terms of whether you're going to do a contract, for example, with an ombuds contractor, that's a board decision. Is that where the line is? It's about the selection and evaluation. >> he shares his assessment, which he should. >> Right. Right. If within the analogy that you gave, if he shares his assessment and then, of course, ultimately is the board's decision and evaluation of it based upon what the superintendent may

093share if he has any at all. Yeah, I think that's helpful. I think that's enough that I think we can we come up with something that hopefully you like or at least would be close to that we can massage at the next meeting. All right. So, is there a motion? I make a motion that we, um, accept the ombudsman policy with all the necessary corrections for first reading. All right. Thank you. Is there a second? Second. It's seconded. Our motion from Ms. Riser, seconded from Ms. Edmonds. All in favor of the motion, please say I. Is there any opposed? All right. Um, May I clarify date on that? >> Yes. That would be It's going to go to first reading. It's going to go to first reading. Let me get my calendar up here. And

094the first meeting that the Decem- January board meeting will be When you get to Carolina, I think it would be best to just coordinate with Ms. Allen to figure out when the next board meeting is. Okay. Will do. Thank you. >> still a lot of things in play that we may not be able to decide right at this afternoon. And if we do an action But only on first reading, so whatever we did would still have to come back for another opportunity for discussion of the Great. Okay. No, no, it would go to policy. Okay. All right, at this point it's a little bit after 3:45. We have international exchange student policy. We'd allotted 30 minutes for it. Dr. Hill, do you think All right, I appreciate it. Thank you, Dr. Crane, we appreciate it.

095Thank you, Mr. Remick. I'm actually going to stick around cuz it's it's midnight we're sleeping. Thanks. All right. Welcome, Dr. Hill. Good afternoon to everyone. I understand at the last board session we wanted to bring this item back, and so Dr. Crane has really and truly been helping to guide this conversation as we look at policy regulation code 4100 regarding our international exchange students. And I'm going to ask Dr. Crane to kind of Dr. Crane to kind of lead us through this discussion. And we do have our international world language um with us today for any questions. So, we'll go ahead and have this conversation. Sure. So, just as a foundation, we do have a policy 4100, which is admission to the Wake County Public School System. And in policy 47 4100 in section D,

096item nine, um this is under the section section D is admission based on exemption to domicile our requirement. So, our internet number nine says that foreign and exchange students who are participating in exchange programs approved by the system >> Hold on, Dr. Crane. >> Sorry, Dr. Crane, we don't have what you're looking at. You You're right, you don't, and I'm just reminding you that the policy the superintendent or designee is authorized to develop criteria for admission of foreign exchange students to admit foreign exchange students according to those criteria. So, the policy on admission allows provides for students who are not domiciled in an exchange program international exchange program to attend um as um established by uh the criteria that's the superintendent designee developed. The criteria is attached to your um to the assembly posting, and

097that's 4100 R&P international exchange students. This is the criteria that staff used to operate the international exchange program. In it you will find that in section A the district has to approve the organizations that we work with and what those criteria are. We state um in section B the responsibilities of those organizations. In section C we outline how we accept those students and the criteria there. Um and then section D we talk about how we place them. Section E any special agreements that we might have. I understand Mr. Swanson has a concern or an exception that he might recommend that we consider. So, we we brought the R&P with us today just to hear what your concern is and how we might address that. All right, with that Mr. Swanson. Thank you. I know that

098Mr. Cook is enjoying his retirement. Um but I know he was very instrumental in helping with this situation that had arose. And so there was a situation where a host family had a situation where they could not necessarily house that student anymore. Um and because it met it went past that July 1 July 31st deadline our hands were tied. We could not necessarily do anything to support that family. And so given the fact that our policy has that harsh deadline, is there a way that we can come up with some you know, situations where we could have staff approve that if there's some dire hard Uh the hardship. hardship um that's similar to our other policies that we could approve this given the fact that you know, we have these host families, something may arise

099and it's not their intentions to not be able to house a family, but we don't want a student to fall in a situation where they don't have the support that they thought they were going to have. And so that was the the piece that we had experienced and um was hoping that we could bring this to come up with some remedies. We have in section C when we talk about acceptance we do have this kind of criteria. So, in the inner introductory paragraph, and yes, I do have um Mr. Cook and Ms. Adelinda on my on my shoulders here, right? Um we do have that um we we only accept for year-long course of study or a first semester only. We don't do second semester. And we do not accept exchange students as transfers from

100any other school districts inside or outside of North Carolina. So, if we're looking at a student who had a situation fall through in any other district in North Carolina or outside of North Carolina we already say in the very beginning we do not accept that. So, if if you want to make an exception to that, we could put under extreme circumstances etc. We could put in notation there. Uh we would need to review whether you can do that. I could because the I think that this is about a student exchange program, so these are students on J visas that are sponsored by the you know, so the start Department of State issues the visa and it's with an approved exchange program to attend a particular school usually, so or at least a school district where

101they're registered. Yeah, so I I think that that could be problematic. We would at least need to research it to say I'm not sure that you can take an exchange student who's got a visa allowing them to attend school in say Johnson County and say we're going to enroll in and attend to the school here. Um maybe, but I don't know without checking federal regs whether you could do that. I think the piece I was concerned about most was that July 31st deadline. Um and I I'm not opposed to the piece that you just raised um both Dr. Crane and Attorney Remick, but just really that deadline. If it could be extended or give us staff a little bit of leeway that not you know, accepting students the day of school. I don't know what

102that hard what that would put the schools in those situations, but at least extending that a couple of days or whatever seems amenable for the board. So, in item number two in section B it says that the students must apply for admission to the system between April 1 and July 31 of the year in which the student wishes to enroll. And then it talks about that process. Then over in section D we say that C, that's section C. Sorry, section C. Um is Is that the date you're talking about, that July 31st? Okay. In section D number one we have a sentence that says seats will be filled upon official review and acceptance of the student application in the order in which they are received. This would be top of page four the last sentence

103in D1. In the policy, right? In the R&P. In the R&P, okay. So, we have one of the concerns that Mr. Myers Carter mentioned was many schools with seats are filled on day one. April 1. So, we begin to say no to certain schools on April 1. Things fill up. And we have said no um after up until July 1 we've said no for this school, no for this school, no for this school for scores of students who may want to attend there. Um and so if we take an application after that fact, after the deadline um then the order in which it is received is still at the very end of the process, and should we consider any of the other no's that we have said should we be offering any of those the

104same consideration. Um and again, just there we don't want there to be any inequity um as far as opportunity is concerned um for students who have already been told no, um and then a late application comes in, other things have fallen through, but we did not go back through that list of no to see if they wanted do you want the spot now um kind of thing. You know, that was a concern that staff had mentioned. Um again I I do think um Mr. Swanson, if what you're most concerned about is in item number two, we could add a phrase at this the section C2 at the very end to say requests for acceptance after the July 31 application deadline may be reviewed and considered at the discretion of the superintendent or designee. I'd say

105pending review of the federal regs though again because there there may well be federal deadlines for for when these things have to happen. I I don't remember the I think I worked on this policy like 15 years ago or this RMP when it was first developed and I'm not I don't recall but there I think those dates may be set in order to make sure that the school district can hit some some compliance deadlines in terms of registering for the SEVIS system. This is federal system you have to register and there are there are a number of deadlines we can't control so I think we just want to make sure that we're not you know, running a foul of that. >> is also set out by the organization so they know what the Department of

106State Right. That's true. That's what I think July the 31st is the deadline. But is which which is what what's the deadline? The 31st of July. July for for the for which for registering in the SEVIS system? Okay. Yeah. So we can I think we can explore that between staff for program- programmatic reasons and we can look at the federal regs see what can be done there. Quick follow-up Mr. Swanson, Vice Chair Swanson and then Ms. Adams. So I'm wondering is there ways cuz in the situation that I'm referring to and I think all of us were included on that that those correspondence what happens when the families go directly to the school and the school says there's room and you know, so how and what can we put in this RMP to make sure

107there's clear expectations because if our policy says one thing and then the school is saying we have room we can accept it we don't want to create false promises that we can't necessarily fulfill. So that is a concern that I have that we can how do we strengthen that so everyone is on the same page even if we can't do a grace period? I did I'm that's a concern that I have. >> One thing I can share Mr. Swanson that may may get some context on this if if a student comes to a school on to register and there's no reason to I mean nobody asked for immigration paperwork, right? That's a that's a clearly understood rule across the district that's because of Plyler v. Doe, the Supreme Court case. You could be undocumented and

108that's legally irrelevant for public school purposes. So it's possible that you have some students presented for admission with a caregiver that's coming to enroll a a child and staff at the schools will know to call student assignment and student assignment will know there's there are statutory affidavits where you know, if your parents have abandoned you or they're unable to care for the child or whatever you can check the boxes and you the child can be enrolled based on the caregiver's domicile. So it's possible that some kids are getting in that way even if they're in violation of their visa and that would not be that would be a private issue but I I don't I don't know enough I I guess I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's even responsive to your question. I

109think it's possible that that you could have students that aren't coming to you as exchange students to participate in a in a district approved exchange program that may be enrolled because there's nothing unusual in their as they're presented you know, with a caregivers for enrollment and that would just be accepted by policy 4100 not by the RMP. I'm not sure if that's muddying the waters even further but Um a little bit. Um Yeah. So your your question was how do we strengthen any language in the RMP um to prevent um a student perhaps going to a school or an organization or a family going directly to a school to ask, "Hey, do you have room? If I can make this happen, do you have room for this student?" So how do we Cuz if that's

110the case it's a clear clear violation of our policy. Yes. >> yeah, the first thing would be to reaffirm to any schools that if this is an enrollment request that they need to go through the normal process meaning that if I move and you know, ABC school is Apex Friendship is my school and I go to they say, "Well, you know, you have to go to Balcom because we're full." That's an enrollment process and so we wouldn't want the principal to say, "Well, okay, one kid left and now I have a space." Knowing that the kids who are overflowed at Balcom should be on that list first. But I think here uh we're really talking about exchange students and if something happens in their process uh that we're able to go beyond the deadline to

111accommodate them as exchange students. Correct. And so I'm comfortable with that. Um the regular enrollment process I think it is about making sure you go through student assignment and not violate any board policy. But for an exchange student if something happens to where we've got to pivot that I'm okay if as Attorney Rainey said in terms of federal policy as long as we're within that and it allows us to do that, you know. Yeah, I think I see what you're saying now Mr. Swanson. Looking at these two things together it's just you just what what we're urging if there's more flexibility on the deadlines let's give it. Let's not just create an arbitrary deadline and then and then I think there's two answers to the question which we need to come back. One is prac-

112for practical purposes you need time to process the applications get them in with the Department of State and the second is there a federal requirement. So that absent one of those and Yeah, I think my big concern I hate to monopolize all the time on this but I think my biggest concern is is there a way that we can offer some grace period if something happens so we can at least ensure that the students have a situation that was not caused of them or you know, something fell through or it was an unnecessary burden that a student is not in a country that they do not have the support how can we support the students and make sure that they are here to do what they are trying to do which is get in the

113experience the American education. So if that means that we can put in the policy an extension or a grace period that meets these certain hardships I'm okay with that. Yeah, I think it's absolutely appropriate if something happens that's outside of their control and they've gone through the process then we do want to be flexible to be able to give them an opportunity to attend. And so as long as it at the end of the day if they haven't done the J-1 visa process there's nothing that we can do anyway. But I do like the idea of us being extremely flexible if something comes up. I think that's a very appropriate. Ms. Adams, did you have a I do. I just wanted to follow up Dr. Crane was giving the example of having a school that's

114full and we've told kids no. Were you specifically talking about exchange students being turned down because the school is full? Correct. Not just generally No. this high school is No. Okay. We're talking about specifically about exchange students who may have wanted to be at one school with a family at one school but that school filled up. And so no more seats are available and then the next school and the next school and then once all of those slots are filled we're done. We say no to everybody else and then someone has an emergency and something may have happened at any of these schools for one of those spaces to open up. >> Right. We've said no to so many exchange students who wanted to be at a particular school. How do we kind of square

115reckon with the no's we've already given with you know, equitable application to someone who is in an emergency and and maybe the answer is the emergency is already an inequity. Um I don't I don't know. It's May I Well, as I say we've we've we've really reached the the end of our uh scheduled agenda. We do have some close session items we need to get to but I wanted to just ask where we are on this. Is this something that we have a proposal to amend the policy or is this suggestions for uh reform of the RMP that direction has been given to staff? I just kind of want to bring back full circle on what you want the next steps to be as a board. Mr. Ice? Um I just I just for me

116too I wanted clarity in the question that Vice Chair Swanson is asking that are we able to give the families grace or no? I think that needs to be clarified in the RMP in saying where possible possibly language. Um um an extension may be granted um and then you know, going through whatever the proper channels are which would be our staff attorneys or whatever so that we're not violating any federal laws or or things of that nature. Um and the only other question that I had is how many if if we have that on hand if not it's okay. How many of our foreign exchange students are we even that we host annually anyway? I was very I was concerned about that to know at least the number the types of families we may be

117impacted. Okay. So at this point we are over time. If you all want to continue discussing we can bring it back to another work session. I'm happy to continue the conversation or Vice Chair Swanson I know you had brought this up originally. Do you feel that and Ms. Adams I'll I'll come to you but do you feel that this is something that would require either a policy change or an RMP change? I mean I think depending on what the federal laws you know, what what it looks like I think it's a both a both end scenario and I'm happy to lean on Ms. Adams to figure out if we can bring this policy to make those suggestions depend once staff has done their research on it. >> I think that the deadline is only in

118the RMP right now. So if we could just have a little time to check the federal regs make sure there's no practical reason why it's important to have a strict deadline. I'm I'm not hearing any philosophical objections to be more flexible there's nothing in the way of that so we could just work back in that arm. Dr. Taylor could change our MP and support the board Mr. Chair, I have one more one more thing that if we're talking about the deadline. Now, what I'm viewing that as as a person wanting to be admitted to my county and if there's a reason that we can extend that, it's fine. But if they are already admitted and now they want to go to another school, then I think they absolutely should be subject to the same thing

119that everybody else is subject to. But this is about just admission to the district. So and I like the flexibility for that. So let let's do this. If we have if we've gotten sufficient direction, let's bring this back to a future work session just to check in, let everyone see it, see what the solution is, see what our comfort level is and then whether it's R&P or if you all do want a policy change, we can make that decision from there. Okay? All right. Thank you, Dr. Hill. All right. Um it is 4:08. We're 8 minutes over, but we do have a couple closed session items that we need to get to um and still stay on time for our annual meeting. Uh Ms. Evans, do you have any last thoughts on that policy before

120we go? You you basically said what I was going to say. That whatever is needed, I'd look to staff and counsel to tell us if it's both and or just R&P. That Perfect. >> Do you Perfect. All right. Thank you, Ms. Evans. All right, Mr. Hershey. >> Motion to go to close to consider confidential personal information protected under GS 143-318, 11A6, and 115C-311. Second. We have a multiple seconds. I'll go um Ms. Gordon? Ms. Rice? Ms. Rice. Motion from Mr. Hershey, second from Ms. Rice. All in favor of moving to closed session for the reasons stated, say I. Any opposed? All right, we'll give the I'll give a minute for the room to clear and then we will reconvene in closed session.