Planning Board Meeting - 10/21/2025

001All right. Good evening everybody. Welcome to the October 21st, 2025 meeting of the Lichfield Planning Board. Would you all please stand for the pledge of allegiance? >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Glad you gentlemen can join us. All right. All right. Uh, roll call of members. Michael Carter, chair. >> Jared Okonnell, vice chair. >> Letha Riley, member. >> Also point member. >> Travis Tucker, member. >> Jesse, no. Alternate. >> Steve Ganon, selectman's rep. >> Okay. Uh, Jeremy is not here this evening. So, uh, Jesse, would you be willing to be the alternate voter if we needed a vote? >> Yes. All right. So, we'll pick point Jesse as

002the alternate for this evening. Uh the first item of business is non public input on non-aggenda items. Items not on the agenda for this evening. Is there anybody here who wishes to talk about non-aggenda items? And I see we have uh Mr. Perry. >> How's it going? >> How are you? >> Very good. Very good. Good evening everybody. Um >> can you state your name and address for the record? >> For the record. Uh Steve Perry, five Lston Lane. Um, I'm here because last week you guys talked about doing the ordinance for ADUs. Okay. And I know that you moved it forward to public hearing. I can't guarantee I'm going to be able to be here that date because I didn't see the date. You actually didn't mention it that day either. >> We haven't

003said it yet. >> Okay. So, here's my point. I will make I will say for the record I am on the ZBA but I am here as a citizen not representing the ZBA. Okay. It's very confusing to try to nail all these square footages for all these ADUs because we subtract closets, we subtract laundry rooms, we subtract staircases. I think the language needs to be tightened up to include all space. The reason I say that is think of your home. When your home is taxed, they measure the outside dimensions of your foundation and you get your square footage. It should be that easy. I highly recommend that you do that. I'd also say that now that the state statute's gone up to the 950 because we have a precedent where we've been subtracting those currently

004>> and it makes it so difficult to figure out what the dimensions are for these EDUs. If we just go by external dimensions, it'll make it nice and easy. I think if you bump it up to the 950, it accommodates for what we've been alleviating, what we've been allowing today, >> and it just makes it so much easier. I had a conversation with Matt. I know he's here tonight about your duplexes, but um I don't think he'll disagree with trying to make it a little easier to interpret. So, that's what I'm here for. I just wanted to state my piece. Um 800. It seems like people don't want to adhere to 800. It seems like they want a little bit more. Um the case we had last night, the attorney that was representing, he was

005talking about the fact that the average two-bedroom rental is between 7 and 900 square ft. So he thinks the 950 is where it should be. I mean, hey, he was representing somebody that wanted a a variance, so I get that, too. But I think if we incorporate all the space and we went up to 950, we would pretty much still be at the 800, but we would fix our problem of trying to calculate. >> That's all I got. >> Okay. >> Anybody has a question for me? That's fine. >> Does anybody have a question for Mr. Par? >> I have a a comment. I watched it as well and the fluctuation between what the square footage was. is I think the gentleman was asking like for 920 or 925 or something but the actual square

006footage was like,29 because he wasn't including closets and staircases. So you go from 900 to,100 and that's a you know vast difference >> and I I would agree what is the true definition. Is it measurable inside? Does it include stairways? Does it include closets? I know they're not heated. They're not livable, but it isn't inside the livable space of the home, >> right? I just think that if we changed the ordinance to tighten it up, it'd make it a lot more clear. There'd be much less gray area. >> But again, just my opinion, I got to give it to you. >> We appreciate it. >> Okay. >> Thank you very much for coming in. >> Thank you. Thanks. >> All right. Anybody else for uh any input on non-aggenda items this evening? Okay, hearing none,

007I'll close input on non-aggenda items. We'll go on to the agenda for this evening. Number one, uh Matt Osborne, Lichfield uh building inspector to discuss duplex separations and definitions. Is Mr. uh Osborne present this evening? Come before the uh board sit at the table. State your name. >> Matt Osborne, town building inspector. Welcome. >> Um, so I was actually requested by you guys to come and answer, I guess would be the best way to describe it. Any questions you had on duplexes and what those definitions in term I know there were certain people that uh didn't like uh sharing a common party wall or within a contained one structure unit. Um, so I'm kind of opening that up based off of what our definitions are here in town. Any questions on them? >> Does anybody

008have any questions for the building inspector? >> I know this was discussed at our last meeting. Um, >> yeah. What what is it we're hoping to accomplish by changing the language of the ordinance? So all the way up until 2015 of the IRC code, this used to be the stated diagram for a duplex. Common party wall, not less than an hour, separated by either a wall or floor. the actual dwelling units were contained in one single structure with a common roof line that prevents anybody from changing from say a Cape to a Gambrell, smashing them together and here you have a duplex. Um most recently we've been since I've come in 47 Page Road is a perfect example of what happens when we just say attached. Basically, two separate buildings were approved and we granted

009them a skywalk or catwalk, whatever you want to call it, canopy, and now he has pretty much two separate structures attached on the parcel that he owns. Um, this way here, it's kind of just clearing up the interpretation and use of that. Um, as far as the IRC's, the IBC's, basically from 2008 all the way up till 2015, it was all contained within a common structure. So to me, a common structure, common structure is the single dwelling unit envelope >> As shown in the diagram. So, I know that what is it now? 1 35 and 7 page road are duplexes with the garages in the middle. That's fine. Like, it's two of the exact same buildings, but it doesn't share that common roof line. That was the biggest thing all the way up till current.

010Um, the new 1821 codes have just kind of told you that it's in one building. So we would have to define what is considered a building structure. >> Okay. >> So as as the building inspector, it's difficult without having those clarified to be able to keep a consistency regardless of whether I'm here or somebody else is here making those decisions. >> Anybody else? Mhm. >> Well, let me ask Russ because I was the one who suggested you should come in because there was clearly it was there was an issue. So, regarding the dumbbell >> type of scenario, does that answer your question about that or no? Because I what I just heard him say was that it's still possible as long as the roof line is the same over both. >> So you could have

011so you technically could have your garages in the middle if you were to look at Corning Farms. Their garages are buted up against but they continued the livable space above the garage to make one continuous roof line. >> So it's all contained in a structure. that was the big difference 2015 and prior to what we have now in the code book. So, we just might want to clarify that. >> So, then that doesn't meet what you were looking for, right? >> Or no, >> I'm I'm still >> I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I just Yeah, I I just I think the concern was that we might be eliminating a potential design that >> some people favor. >> Yeah. >> And that we wanted to allow for some flexibility. >> Yeah. >>

012Without compromising. >> And again, like I'm the building inspector. to me it doesn't you know my opinion on that I don't try to push that anywhere >> but as the building inspector where somebody is trying to define what is possible >> it needs to be defined >> we can't just we just can't say that it's got to be attached cuz attached is different to you to me to everybody else >> yeah for sure >> so with the 2015 15 code and that's why I brought it up to Joan is that that state that gave a clear definition of how we wanted to put that together regardless of whether you still wanted them to allow garages in the middle. You can do that. But the old standard was that it had a continuous roof line. So

013unit A and unit B, their roof lines were exactly the same, sharing a common party wall, whether that be the wall or the floor. Will you have any recommendations for how you would want us to define it if we wanted some more flexibility like um the dumbbell configuration? >> And that's kind of where to me the easiest way is why I brought this picture up was a common party wall >> because there is no guessing at that point. you can >> as long as those livable spaces share that common party wall then you're you're good to go. >> So in this case not require the common roof line but still require this wall. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Even in an instance where the garages touch but say nothing is above them. No living space

014is above >> or behind them. >> Yes. So before it was a it was a single structure is how it was defined. >> Mhm. >> Right now we just say one building. So we that doesn't in encompass the same thing. >> Okay. >> And and not to pick on the owners that just built that home. I saw it at first and I was like one's a cape, >> one's a colonial. Yep. >> Two different colors. Two different styles. >> And they have a very small catwalk of probably 6 or 8 foot roof. connecting the two. Yeah. It's not like it's a garage or room. It's just Yeah. a roof line connecting. That's not very It's not the roof line. It's just connecting. And I questioned it at first, too, is you know what is the

015the look and feel doesn't match the character of the town. Doesn't even match the character of the houses. I mean, if they were on separate properties, yes, but yep, >> they are 8 ft apart and do not look similar. >> And so, just for reference for us in our zoning, our definition 200.07 07 for a duplex two family resident. Two attached dwelling units contained in a single building. Don't know what you consider a single building. 2015 made it pretty obvious what was considered a single building. So it takes the guesswork out. It keeps everybody on the same playing field. Um regardless of who the inspector is at the time. Right now we have personal opinions on what is considered attached, what is approved. And unfortunately for like a gentleman like me that's comes in, if

016it's already been approved, I'm not going to tell the person no based off of personal preference that I don't agree with that >> right now. Getting back to the tightening up the language to to give some clarity. >> What if instead of sharing a common party wall, it was sharing a common foundation? Would a would language like that be workable? to allow the dumbbell configuration, for example. >> Yeah. It's just it's however you guys feel. >> Well, we want to give you the tools you need to do your job. We want to give you the clarity that you need. >> Yeah. And it it can come in a multiple of different ways. It's not to limit that. It's not, you know, um, you know, a a town home is like if you look at a

017definition of a town home, a town home is the same continuous from foundation to roof line. But that doesn't state what are what a single building structure is. You know, are we a single dwelling? These are two separate dwellings. These are, you know, there's just options that need to be explored. And that's all we were that's all my concern was when these were coming through. I understand that >> more more than hey we need to change it now. It's just something we needed to look at. >> Looks like we have uh some members of the public that would like to comment. >> Yeah, we can certainly open it up to public comment. Anybody have any public comment this evening regarding what has just been done? Mr. Shabano, why don't you come forward to the table?

018Introduce yourself to the board. >> Rick Shabano 41 Charles Banker. Hi. Why would Why couldn't you just say it has the same architectural design? >> Probably subjectivity. >> Yeah. >> Huh? >> Probably that might be too subjective. >> Well, it's both the same. It's the same has the same architectural design. >> And I think the other purpose was to prevent the kind of breezeway situation where you're connecting two different buildings. >> Oh, no. But if you want, so if someone wants to build a duplex and they want to put the garages in between, they there's plenty of those units around that look very nice. >> So as long as the garages touch or the interior walls, but they have the same architectural design, they're going to look the they got to look the same on

019the outside, I would think. >> Yeah, we would hope. >> I would think that's it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else from the public this evening? Please come forward. State your name and address for the record. >> Reggie Maro, 8 Westview Drive here in Lichfield. Um, it is a touchy subject. Um, and you're trying not to limit things that will really look good um by um certain restrictions like common roof line. Okay, that's that's something that kind of takes a home and turns it into something that's more lineal. And today, a lot of the designs are getting away from lineal. You got offsetting that's going on. And it's not uncommon to have something that's a little bit different in design on one next one next to another, but still have the

020interconnect. I think the uh having that uh that common wall is important but I think you have to understand also that when incorporating that common wall that you can have a a relatively small common wall. It doesn't have to be from front to back because if you're going to be getting into shifting of of a structure to give it some depth and whatnot and make it look you know give that ability to make it look good. I think you know you that common wall is important but also you can do it with your garages on the inside as well. Um it is a very difficult thing. I know uh common architectural style um is is something that is related a lot of times to the finishes rather than the the overall design because if you

021look today there's a lot of new designs that are out there where they're actually changing you even even for instance Corning Farm. Okay, you will look and there's actual changes from from one to the center where you get the big barn. It's actually there's some commonalities on the outside edges, but when you get to the center, it's actually a different design which pulls that and and kind of breaks that up. So, you don't want to get yourself into a trap um where you know you're starting to question those kind of things because it can get pretty complex. It is a difficult thing. I think the most important thing is that is having that, you know, some sort of common wall. I'm not a fan of those that put breezeways in between two structures and and

022try to call that something other than what it is. Um, but you know, I I want to be also careful about being too limiting on that because there are a lot of new designs that are coming out that are quite pleasing. >> Not everybody wants the old colonial anymore or the old cape anymore. It's all kind of changing. >> So, sorry I couldn't help you a lot more than that, but >> thank you. Anybody else from the public this evening? Okay, hearing none, I'm going to close public input. Um Jay, anything on your end about this topic? >> Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to think it through. Um because it it sounds as though one of the goals is clearly to provide some some definition for the building inspector. Um there seems to be

023a sense of maybe what we don't want. So, how to articulate exactly what it is we want. Um, and I'm thinking just off the cuff. Um, it might make sense to have more than one diagram example that the board could look at to think about because it sounds as though we've got more than one duplex style that I think could be acceptable. So maybe that's kind of what we need to look at is what are some different examples. Um that might make sense. Um I I do agree. I I think the common wall is key whether that is dividing a garage or something else. Um I'm not sure in the breezeway example of what that foundation actually looks like. Um whether it is in fact a common foundation or not. So that's you know question

024mark. But I think maybe for the next time we discuss it, we can try and [clears throat] come up with some different um examples. Take a look at those and then if there's an openness to some different styles, then we can draft the language to make sure that it's not precluding things that we want to see um and is precluding things we don't want to see. If that makes sense. It's duplexes have changed a lot. I mean, I think traditionally a duplex was very much a single building with two units in it, whether they were side by side or up and down. You see, you go in older neighborhoods, Hudson, Nasha, there's lots of them. Some of them are more townhouseike where they're clearly two mirror, you know, entrances and but they're very much one

025structure. Uh sometimes they are, you know, there's a different variation in how they're done. There are a number that are up and down still two front doors. There was you see again you see a lot of those in older neighborhoods. Typically they were the units are smaller than a single family home. So that's why there's an allowance for them on one lot. It's because the assumption is there's less impact. Now what you're seeing um is really two single family homes that are next to each other. the size, the massing, the number of bedrooms, it's become a it's evolved into something different um than what it might have once been. So, I think that's probably part of the struggle. You know, 20 years ago, you probably wouldn't have had this discussion. Um but now that dumbbell

026style is is become very common and I mean, you go by them, the massing of them is is quite large. So, it's a it's a different thing. So, there's a long way saying I'll come up with some different examples perhaps for the next time we have a discussion. We can look at them. We can decide what makes sense or not and then that'll help shape how we define it. >> All right. Well, thank you very much for coming in um this evening. Uh we do appreciate your input and your dedication to the town. Uh certainly we'll have further discussions on this as we go forward. So, um, has the board pretty much satisfied with questions from the building inspector? Do you guys, how are you feeling about it? >> I think we have more work

027to do. We have >> Okay, >> there's some talk about >> Okay. I assume in these situations, as long as it fits on the property and there's no questions about it, it's they don't have to come before a board and request, I'm building a duplex and this is what I want approved. They could just build, >> right? If it meets all the criteria for the lot, >> right? as long as it meet it's criteria >> which is why I think the building inspector has a challenge because it's >> it's coming to him >> right so we need to give him better clarity in what the what the the use guidelines should look like >> all right well thank you very much sir and we appreciate it >> thanks for coming in >> uh next item

028on the agenda for this evening I have Jim Petropolis uh professional engineer and Rick Charbano discuss architectural drawings for Colby Farm project at Albuquerque A and Route 3A. Folks, come to the table. Introduce yourselves to the board. >> Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. >> Good evening, Rick. Uh, for the record, my name is Jim Petropolis, a professional engineer, uh, Nashville, New Hampshire, representing um, Rick this evening. Uh, also with us is attorney Hollis just to keep an eye on us. And, uh, Mike Mchuan is our project architect, and Mike joins us in case we have any questions Rick and I can't answer. Um, thank you for the opportunity. We won't take up a lot of time, but we're here just to continue the discussion of what we're calling the KBY farm mixeduse

029development, uh, with really a a primary focus on two items this evening. Uh some of you may recall we were here last time in June of this summer to kind of say hi, how are you? Uh I'm going to recap a little bit uh just to freshen up on things. Uh give you an update of where we're at. Um and then I want to introduce you to um the architecture. Um Mike's team has put together some nice graphics and we thought we'd introduce that to you now before we proceed with more formal submitts. Um Jay, the next slide actually please. And of course we know this project's located at the corner of Albuquerque and the Charles Bankraftoft Highway essentially between Hidden Creek Golf Club and the Charles Bankraftoft located in the the NC Northern Commercial

030Zone. Rick's five parcels total just about 25 uh acres in size. Um and as you know, we're proposing a mixeduse development upon the property. It will be designed in accordance uh with the recent uh the 2024 I think or was it 25 25 zoning amendment that allows this type of project in the NC zone. Uh some key elements. Uh we're looking at a townhouse development, no duplexes, uh 92 units where 98 are allowed by code. And it's very similar to the projects that Rick has developed at Callaway Circle and Rose Meadows. Uh these will be six and eight uh unit townhouse buildings. Uh there will be uh several detached garages. Not every unit will have one. uh public water uh septic systems, ample park parking. Uh in the June meeting, we talked about sidewalks, sidewalks,

031connections from the resi piece, uh even across the street to the golf club and and and then of course to the commercial buildings in the front. So, um that will be an important uh important piece of the project. Um, and of course mixed use says you can do town houses in the NC zone, but we're going to require you to construct uh 100 square ft uh per residential unit of developed commercial space. And so 92 units times 100 is 9,200. We're proposing two buildings along the front of Charles Bankro Highway. Uh, Yep. Thank you. Uh one is a proposed multi-tenant building uh retail tenants measures approximately 10,000 square ft uh and the other to the north [snorts] >> south got the north arrow wrong I apologize uh to the south is a daycare facility about

0328,000 square feet and I'll talk a little bit more about those in a second. um access to the project uh coming in off of Albuquerque as well as a write in right out only. We know Charles Bankra is is DOT controlled. Uh two items of note. Um you know both Rick and I plan on having a meeting with Joan and her team, the technical review committee meeting. Uh we want to kind of talk through these access locations, sidewalks, make sure they have a good understanding of the plan. We've yet to do that. Um but it's it's in the it's in the offing Joan that will be before you soon. Uh the other thing is that our traffic consulting is performing the work to prepare their study and they have already determined based on actual counts

033that Albuquerque A Charles Bankraftoft Highway as it sits today meets the warrants for a traffic signal. And so we wanted to convey that to you this evening and let you know um that that already exists. where we go from here. We got a long way to go. You know, we still have to work with the state and we still have to identify. They have to review our numbers and then we got to figure out how this gets done. But um um when you have >> funding is one of the issues in in that, you know, because it's already at failure right now. >> So it becomes some responsibility >> other than us. >> Yeah. >> So we'll need a conversation, Mr. Chairman, moving forward about that. We're not going to >> You will have a

034conversation with the technical review committee in the town, I'm sure. >> Sure. >> Uh but we wanted to to keep you apprised of that because uh >> um you know, other than that, the property, it's a wonderful piece of property. It's it's fairly flat. It's fairly open. Um I often speak here of engineering challenges and how we're going to overcome them. Uh this is a a pretty nice property to develop. Um but but traffic appears to be uh one that will need need some special attention to it. So, okay. So, the next item is the architecture and that's kind of the fun stuff over here for if you could go Jay to the next slide. There's actually several slides. Yeah. So Mike's team, uh, Dennis Myers, the architects out of Manchester, they put together, uh,

035a number of perspectives, oblique views, looking, this one will be hovering over the Albuquerque Charles Bankfra Highway intersection, kind of looking back. Um, and you can see the two commercial buildings in the front, which we'll talk about the details in a minute. And then you can see kind of the road layout of the town houses. And I'm sorry, Jay, if you go back one, you'll remember in our June meeting, we spoke about the wonderful, slow, beautiful radius of Albuquerque A and and how do we position these homes along that and actually love the the fencing that's there. It's got a very nice rural feel to it. And so those uh seven buildings will actually have the front of their buildings facing Albuquerque and have the parking behind. And we tried to use that theme on

036several other buildings where we could inside the resi. And so when you see some of these perspectives, you might want to just take a take a peek at how that looks. So thank you Jay if you could keep rolling. So that's one perspective. Uh the two commercial buildings. Uh next one please. Yeah. Now that's along Albuquerque um looking kind of north and you'll see you'll see the fence that's there. You'll see the sidewalk that's already there. The units are set back uh a nice distance and we're providing sidewalks really on both sides uh of these units. Um there might be a few more trees on this graphic than we'll end up with, but uh it's just a picture to show you how how it may look in the future. Um these resi buildings uh the

037town homes are is again similar to Callowa and similar to Rose Meadows. Um any color variations with those Rick? >> The only thing we took away the maroon and and we did um we talked about wood siding. We are going to go with a 30-year final sighting. >> Okay. >> It's going to be >> uh next one please Jay. Okay. Okay, that's looking from across the street uh up in a like a drone shot almost. Next slide. Okay, and there's the resi buildings. Twostory 68 unit buildings. A lot of detail detail to them. >> Colors, right? >> Yep. >> Those are the actual colors of the buildings. >> Okay, Jay, next one. That's the backside, right? Yep. So the buildings that are facing Albuquerque, that's the way the people enter through what you're seeing right

038there. >> Okay. >> So that the bulkheads there, the air conditioning unit there. >> No, that's not facing Albuquerque. >> Well, if it No, if it was facing Albuquerque. >> Yeah. If you go to the back back one, Jay. >> Yeah, that's facing Albuquerque. And again, these are two stories about 1,300 to,500 square f feet per unit, pitched roof, 28 ft in height. Uh, and the garage units, I think we have a a picture of the garage units, very similar. Yeah, there you go. There's a picture of them right now, which is extremely wellreceived by the the rental community. Okay. The commercial buildings. Um so as we know um the Lichville site plan regulations does contain uh building regulations. You have purview over over certain architectural elements of the project. Uh the code really encourages

039a New England theme um which which I think we can check the box with. Um when I first saw the elevations I very much liked them. Not that that matters, but it it has kind of a a New England barn feel to it uh to me. And um uh I think it it fits in quite well. Um this is uh the retail building and a couple items there, pitched roofs. Um the roofing will be a combination of of metal roofs. You can see the uh canopy uh I'm sorry, the um overhang on the left side of the screen of an outdoor patio area. You can see a metal roof there, but the main body of the roof will be architectural shingles. Uh, and that would be on both buildings. Uh, the retail building is again,

040they're both one-story buildings, but with the pitch of the roof, uh, and the feature on top of the roof, the retail building is 32 feet in height. The daycare building 27 ft in height. Um, entrances into each of the tenant spaces, you can see, have kind of a timber post and beam overhang in a different color, which I think is attractive. Fixed glass windows. Um, the exterior materials are combinations of fiber cement siding and trim. Uh, and full stone at the lower levels. You can see the contrast in a little bit of a lighter a lighter shade on the lower levels of the building. Uh the color scheme right now is kind of a combination of charcoal gray and lighter gray with the stone. Um and um um let's see a couple more slides. Jay,

041that's uh if you can scroll down, we have our traditional building elevations there. It gives you the stone contrast a little bit better. Uh, next building I think is the daycare. Y, you can see we've got some outdoor recreck space that we're required to have by law. Um, and the front entry feature there. Um, lastly, Mr. Chair, we uh have done a quick code check with our architecture to I forget the code 120.15 or whatever it is 13. Um, and I think we're we're we're headed in the right direction. And I want to say we're compliant, but uh until we get to the finish line, you never know. U but we have tried to adhere to to the code. So um with that, you know, Rick or I or or Mike, I'd be happy to

042answer any questions you have about the architecture or the the project in general. >> So is the the building going to have the uh is it going to be a coffee shop? I think you mentioned something about a coffee shop. Is that going to be what it's going to be in there or >> Well, we you know, >> We don't know what we can get. I mean, you know, with the >> I know you had mentioned it, so I [laughter] >> with the new gas station, there's going to be a Dunkin Donuts in the coffee shop. You know, >> it's hard to say. >> If you look at U Thank you, Jay. Yeah, right there. That one. What we try to do is provide the opportunity on that end space for um a potential restaurant.

043You know, with outdoor seating be as popular it is. That's really why we created that outdoor patio and uh and roof feature. Um, but at 9 to 10,000 square ft, you're only going to get potentially, you know, anywhere from four to five tenants in in a building such as a single story. >> And do you So, the parking is going to be in the front there. Is that >> It is my understanding. >> And if and also, Mr. Chairman, if you recall the site plan, um, we are providing a provision for a drive around the back. Um whether that has a window to it in an order station, uh we don't know yet. Um it may not. It could be used simply for delivery. U yeah if you go to the site, there you go.

044>> So we've provided that provision in the back. We want to encourage employees of that uh particular building to park in the back to free up as much space as possible in the front. The only thing that's really for certain right now in there we believe is the daycare. >> Okay. >> That's appears to be going in the right direction. Terms of timing, we're probably not going to land back here until maybe the other side of the first of the year. Um it'll be >> the um Morgan. Is it Morgan Road? I'm sorry. Um, >> is that gonna >> because I know where Romano's is. Yeah. >> Is or is that going to go through or No. >> No. >> We're proposing to Yeah. block that. >> You're going to block. >> It's a private

045road. So, >> okay. >> Morgan Road's a private road all the way from KBY Road. >> And what about you're going to still do um you said you were going to have the uh where the golf uh drive uh driving range is. There was going to be a building. my understanding for maintenance and you gonna do that or >> we're going to do a we'll come back in with a maintenance because when we change our traffic >> we move the trucks to a different we'll [clears throat] be coming in with a plan >> for that and when we do that it'll be on that site part of that site so we'll we'll put the the maintenance garage for this facility will be over there >> and what about I you mentioned last time about rain

046gardens is that are you still doing that or what are you >> yeah I think this the storm warm water is going to be a combination of a number of different practices throughout. You know, we we we [clears throat] enjoy a ton of open space around these buildings. And so rather than hard pipe everything to one location, I think we're going to have a series of different uh storm water areas. One of the things I like about working for Rick is when, for instance, if you look at the the buildings along Albuquerque, you see green spaces there. We we don't like running uh surface water over sidewalks because you get that freestyle action in the spring and you could have a potential slip and fall and that's the last thing a an apartment owner wants

047to have. So we would introduce Mr. Chairman in those greener spaces that still need to be drained. So probably some small leeching structures or rain gardens that you consider but okay. >> Yeah. So, there's going to be a whole series of different practices on this one versus a big large parking lot. So, >> does anybody have any questions for the applicant? >> I have one that's very insignificant, but I thought all roads off Albuquerque or all you couldn't have a driveway off Albuquerque. I know Morgan Road is named. Is is the entrance to the commercial units going to have to have an actual name? >> Yeah. Well, it it No, that won't have an actual name, I don't believe. Um, >> because you I I thought because of the class of the road, you can't

048have >> Well, >> I mean, you you'd definitely know more than I would. >> It comes back to the old thing. If you're going to have a commercial use, you got to have an entrance off of >> Alb. Yeah. So, >> it's just that simple. You know, it was for residential back in the day. Um, you don't want residential driveways off of it, right? >> But if you're going to have a commercial unit, commercial building, yeah, >> you're going to require a commercial building. we have to be able to come on to Albuquerque and 3A. >> So, the stipulation was probably not was for residential driveways. >> It back then it was. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it still is. I mean, that probably wasn't zoned commercial back when we did it. When

049when they first did it, no driveways on Albuquerque. It probably wasn't zoned that way. You remember, Jay? It was a long time ago. >> Northern Commercial. >> It probably wasn't. Yeah, I don't remember. >> It was a long time. It was a long time ago. [laughter] >> So, it was a long, you know, we didn't I mean, Albuquerque got built way before we zoned that. >> Well, it it it's that type of question that we're likely going to work out with the TRC group, you know, and have a we got to have a driveway. If we don't have a driveway, we can't have a commercial building. So, >> and if need be, you throw a small sign up. >> You've got to have you just got to have entrance off Albuquerque. >> Yeah. >> For

050anything we can have. Why wouldn't we be able to have a driveway off of Albuquerque if we can have one off 3A? >> Right. Oh, I I I completely agree with you. I just I was thinking about the ruling that there was no driveways, but it probably makes more sense residential. >> Well, it was single family and I don't know if it ever got dressed in the commercial area, but we have to have a driveway. >> Yeah. I think if you build that driveway to the road standards and give it a name that might and designate it a small section of road that might >> well if if we build it to that I mean we can come in and build a small culde-sac and have the town plow it which doesn't make sense. >>

051Well private roads can I think be off >> a private road I think can also be off of Albuquerque. So >> it's just >> it's the same thing just a driveway at that point. So it might be a wafer on the driver. >> Yeah, I think >> and know we talked about this at length at one during one meeting because it was when you had come in with the original design whereby there wasn't a pass through from the commercial to the residential at that time. >> Yeah. Oh, okay. Um, and the conversation ensued after that that we didn't we didn't want to inadvertently set a precedent that someone could come back and say, "Well, hey, you allowed them to do it, so [laughter] why can't I do it?" Um, so when we talked about it,

052you're right, Jared. It was about >> um building it to the town standard so that it's a private road. It it was all down to the not calling it a driveway because it wasn't a driveway. It was technically a road. So, um >> and in that in that case, >> we could feel comfortable that we wouldn't be whacked with some kind of precedent that [music] you know was set. >> We're worried about that driveway being a president's. We have a whole bunch of precedents. We already setting this down. I just wanted to give you the benefit of of what, you know, not that people go back and read minutes, but that's, you know, you'd find it in the minutes somewhere. >> It's a driveway. It's not >> plain and simple. It's a driveway. >> And

053uh how much uh screening are you planning on having between the residential buildings and Albuquerque? Because we do have in the design regulations that it should be um screened to the ex extent practicable uh through the use of fencing, trees, shrubs, andor landscape BMS. Well, if you look, you've seen we already planted a whole bunch of trees to get ahead of it. >> Um and typically we we've been spending about 9,000 a unit on landscaping. So that's about what our cost per unit today's dollars is for landscaping. So if you drive, you know, look at any of the projects that I have. I think they're they landscaped pretty well and look >> Yeah, we haven't we haven't done the design yet. So uh it'll be in the in the drawing. So we'll be able to

054to look at it though, but it'll include the as Rick said the existing fencing and trees that are already out there. >> Yeah. Do are the trees within the town right ofway at the moment? >> Yeah. So I don't know if we should fully those should definitely not be the only thing because that is not >> part of the project. >> We're just think about that what I just said 9,000 a unit and the amount of units that are there that's how much money we're spending in landscaping which is pretty close to a million dollars. Okay. So we're not cutting any corners when it comes to landscaping. We're putting sprinkler systems in. We're making it so that it looks good. You know, I mean, all I'd say to go look at Rose Meadow and tell

055me what you don't like there and we'll improve on it. Or go look at the building that Joel just built and, you know, and and what we're the building the projects that I've done. And I think everybody has to admit they they don't look too shabby when they're done. >> We'll find that right balance of landscaping and law. I actually like the lawn because you get the golf course across the street. So, we we'll find that right balance. >> Expansive. >> I know you obviously um you're not sure yet, but what are you envisioning being in the commercial section? I mean, what is it? Retail store, what? I mean, I don't know. >> We're probably going to have our own office for all our rental for all our rental property. We're probably going to have

056that. That's going to be one of the units. Other than that, I couldn't tell you because what what has survived at the north end of town other than the convenience store. >> So, we have to we have to try to find tenants. I don't know what they're going to be. I couldn't even begin to tell you what they're going to be. >> Um >> I just didn't know if you had any any thoughts. >> I don't I don't I have no >> I honestly have no clue. you know those buildings but you know those buildings today are different than >> the Emer Street and Nashville buildings where you got retail retail retail you they have a a dance studio or a you know a fitness facility or something like that. So, I think when the

057legislation went through, I know like Rick about four or five years ago, you and I, we we looked at the commercial uses of the northern commercial zone. There were only a handful and it's like, well, nobody's ever going to do >> Yeah. >> You know, a bank or this or that, but what about those services for the 8,000 people that live in town? So, >> that's my own personal opinion. I think it's going to >> could be a dentist >> lean that way, you know, something >> could be a law office. Could >> could be a dentist thing. We don't know. We really don't know. >> We have We're going to build it and then we're going to try to rent it. So, I'm not going to build it. >> I'm not going to have

058it all the tenants and then decide to build it. >> I'm gonna build it and hopefully they will come. >> Well, you're going to have new residents, so that's a part of the mix, >> right? >> Exactly. >> Yep. That's a good point. Mhm. >> And I'm going to build it before before um there'll be a maybe a small percentage of the residents done and the commercial will be built. >> So, we're not going to worry about not building all the residential and worrying about the commercial. We're going to build the commercial right up front. >> Okay. >> Incidentally, that's a big issue in mixeduse development projects all over. You know, guys like me sell everybody on the idea of a mixed juice and then he build a resi [laughter] and they don't build a

059commercial and then we have to come back three years later and ask for more resi, right, Jay? >> Yep. >> Yeah. That's uh why we put some care into the regulation, the ordinance. >> Everybody [clears throat] does, but you know, I mean, if you go over to Marramac where [snorts] we're at building that project, if it is Fley, I don't even know. But the one where where uh the um >> St. Cobain >> St. Bane was there's a whole foundation there that they put in just they can't the first building they built's not even full >> you know it's tough but we're hoping that there's nothing out there's nothing in that area that we can that we can rent it >> and hopefully all of the customers located right next door >> will help. >>

060Yeah, hopefully. I mean, we'd like to see something and maybe with the fence company, maybe someone else will pop up and, you know, who knows? I don't know. >> Mr. Chair, do we have to um with 92 units, additional units in addition to the other ones in town, do we need to um does the school officials are they contacted about that, too? >> Not really. I mean, the school is its own entity? Um they I know that they do keep track. I was going to say >> of the data regarding building in town. Um certainly because you know they're interested in knowing about you know who's going to be attending the school and and all that stuff. >> Um but no not really. >> Um so and just just so you that everybody here understands

061and we be clear this is a this is a concept I'm assuming this is a conceptual design. It's an amendment to a conceptual design. The board is not bound by anything that the applicant is presenting this evening. And the same is true of the applicant is not bound by what the board says. So it's really an opportunity for the board to get an idea of what is going to be constructed this evening and what the applicant is proposing and um just want to keep make that clear. So you know if they bring a site application before us that's a different story. Uh that's a different animal. um then they have to adhere to the regulations and whatever you know uh we have under our zoning. So >> it was really tonight just to come in

062so you could see where where we are, what we did. If something you don't like, we'd rather know about it now than >> down the road. If you don't like the looks of the building, >> well, I will tell you if you're going to be putting in commercial, I I would like to, and I'm this is my opinion, not, you know, anyone else, and I it's your decision, but maybe a restaurant, >> maybe um I like the [clears throat] idea of a law office. That's a pretty good idea. Um and I certainly like the idea of a rental, a little self- serving >> for yourself to to to rent those properties. That's a I like that idea. So that's just mine. >> I'd like to have a restaurant, but if we we can we can

063get one just >> Yeah. Is there enough draw? >> Well, that's it. And obviously, um, you know, >> and once we get further down the road, we can start advertising the building and see see what we can get before we finish the inside. >> So, we'll put the shell up, get everything done, and then you don't finish the inside till you know >> what you have for a tenant. Now, you're going to have So, there's going to be, and I think I saw it on the rendering, um, there's going to be an entrance at the front on Charles Bankroth, >> an in and out. >> In and out to drive in and out. >> Uh, northbound in and a and a I mean, sorry, a northbound in and northbound out. >> Okay, >> that's it.

064No, no left turns. >> No left turns. Okay. And am I, you know, and again, you're not bound to this, but at least this rendering that I'm looking at is showing the fence continuing down to Charles Bankraftoft and going down Charles Bankraftoft. So, it's >> it looks fantastic. I mean, that that would be my hope is to see that fence wrap around. >> Yeah, we're going to put fence. Yeah. >> No, we're not changing that. that. >> No, I know, but it it stops at a certain point and so >> right now because >> wasn't sure if you were going to continue. >> We just did it at the at the time, but it's going to go all the way down the front and then the sidewalk is going to go down to KBY Road

065>> and we're not sure if it's going to be in the rightway, the state rightaway, or it's going to be on our property. We don't know that yet. What about the I'm sorry going back the I think you had said something last time about the um you weren't going to move the um well I'm I'm talking about the Romano side but there was a house >> the duplex is that going to stay that's staying okay >> and are you going to remodel that or is that going to be >> we'll probably change the siding or do something but it won't be >> okay >> it's probably won't be seen anyway it you know it's tucked in there pretty good in there pretty >> about Kobe's house >> that's getting torn down. >> Probably Kobe's house.

066>> Yeah. That has to get torn down. >> And um the area where is that Kobe Brook? I'm sorry. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Um that is all I mean obvious that it's all in the flood plane. There's nothing going to be affecting that at all or at all just going to be >> Yeah, right now we're right now we're not touching any of the the regulated buffers, but um there may be a need to which would put us in front of the zoning board. >> Okay. So, like a special exception. >> Yeah, for a buffer impact. It's already it's actually already cleared. >> Okay. >> Um we might put a small storm water practice right where the cursor is, Jay, in that back left corner. Uh but other than that, we've done our

067best to respect both building no touch and septic uh setbacks along Kobe Brook. And there's a pretty clear break between the the usable land and then the the slope down in the woods that are there. So, >> right. >> We're not really touching >> Okay. >> any of that stuff. >> Yeah. The only that's other than that, there's no wet land other than what we had to do to if we have to go out with a pipe. >> Yeah. >> Wetland. I like the idea of having just northbound traffic only on Charles Braftoft. So that if you're going south or you're coming south or going south, you're going to have to use Albuquerque to enter an exit. >> And if you're going to put a So you is is it going to be DOT that

068for the um the light at uh >> Well, they approve they the DOT approves every light in the state. Okay. >> So they have to approve every single one. But yeah, that would that would be there. But >> okay, >> it'll start with the review of the study, >> the numbers, the data, and preliminary design. And then like Rene's project, it'll then morph into a final design, which will need sign off. >> And would that be like approval by Well, well, it's it's Charles Bankro Highway. Would the town have to approve that as well? I think so. the signal. >> Yeah. Or is it to the Is it the state? >> It's the state. The state approves every signal. >> Okay. All right. I didn't know if the town had it. >> The town just

069has to help pay for it. >> It's the unfunded. >> We're going to wait on that a little while, right? That's going to be an interesting discussion. Okay. That for later. Let's do that last. [laughter] >> All right. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> While they're here, Yeah. there. I want to take the opportunity since you're a developer and you're here and it's relevant to this project potentially. We've been talking about um electric vehicles and charging stations and so I figure ask you what's the market up here for people putting those types of at least the infrastructure um into the garage area so that if they wanted to >> so the case you'd build it >> the first uh 60 units that are occupied at Rose Meadow we had one we and we we We we

070set it up so that they can put a charging station in their garage. >> Okay. >> We had one person do it >> and he just moved out and took it back out. >> So So do I understand correctly? You didn't put the charging equipment in there. You you set up the electrical infrastructure such that someone could >> have it installed >> inside their garage. >> Got it. And do you intend to do that, do you think, in this or not bother? >> Yeah, we're going to keep doing it. It's not it's not a big deal. And so we just run a conduit from their unit into the garage. >> So then if they want to do it, we just have to run a a wire in. We're not going to wire each one and

071do it until they want to until they need it. >> So out of the, you know, like I said, out of the first 60, we had one. >> Okay. >> Wow. >> So you have conduits for every single unit. >> Every single unit. So everybody has their own electric bill. >> Nice. >> So every every condo unit has its own electric bill, its own water bill, its own gas bill. Yeah. That's why at the end of at the end of each unit >> Yeah. >> if you go to where the garage where the buildings are, >> you see like a little bulkhead. >> Yeah. >> And there's there's there's one right there. Go back. >> Yeah. >> Back. >> No. Go back down. >> Down one more. >> Me up. [laughter] >> Okay. >> Oh,

072see see that next to the front door there's a little hangover. Yeah, >> there's one of those on each end of the building. One of them's empty and one has all the meters in it. >> Okay. >> But we just they kept they we build them both so it looks the same. >> Yeah. >> So, actually the maintenance people if they wanted to stick some shovels or rakes or whatever in there, they could, but they're just too empty. >> They look the same. >> Thank you. >> That was a good question. I forgot about that. >> Okay. and and we were going to we were going to put charging stations at Rose Meadow, but it it wasn't feasible for the at the time. >> Yeah. Now, I think this you no longer get tax breaks,

073too. So, that's just going to desensit. No one's going to buy them now. That's going to drop the market. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it it's okay. I mean, my brother has a has an electric truck. He loves it till he has to go someplace. [laughter] So doesn't see anything here. So So we give him a hard time about having electric truck. He's up in conquered. It breaks down. He won't call any of us to go get anything. [laughter] >> That's pretty funny. >> We wanted to hear from a developer and to understand what the demand was in the marketplace. So thank you for sharing. >> Seems but >> we we're making it so it's available. We do see big employers on industry providing um EV spaces for

074their employees. The New Balance facility uh up in London Derry, the Bellivance facility, they all ran chargers out. They didn't >> go hog wild on 300 cars, but they provided probably 15 charger spacer cars. So, we're seeing a lot of that in the uh commercial industrial side. We're not seeing it on retail buildings. >> The other the other problem is not that they they haven't got together. So if you have a Toyota or you have a Volkswagen or you have they can all plug in. >> So they they haven't made [clears throat] it all the same. >> So it's difficult. Tesla is different than everybody else. And >> just they haven't come together yet to make it all work. Okay. >> Um, anybody have anything else this evening? >> Well, gentlemen, I want to thank

075you for coming in >> and uh, it was a pleasure. >> Thank you. Very helpful. Thank you. >> Y, thank you. Have a good evening. >> Good night. >> Any questions or concerns? Have a good evening. Thank you. Next uh item on the agenda for this evening, we have continued work session and master plan update signs on Albuquerque A. >> Right. That's >> is that what you wrote in Joan or >> Right. because Kim had brought that up and Steve remembers the >> Okay. Uh so I'm going to turn it over right now to um Mr. Jame an update. >> All right. So really not too much in terms of the update. I think we're going to talk about the master plan next meeting. Um, we had talked about the possibility of a solar ordinance.

076Uh, I think that's really the only one other than the two family that's hanging out there. Uh, so I don't know if people have had a chance to look at the model or to think about it. I did start going around and kind of trying to take some pictures. Uh, so I did find a um solar array in Milford that I would say was dual use with um storage units, mini storage units. Um, so I I I did find that example. Um I took a couple aerials so you can anybody can actually go see the um Fidelity one uh which is a collocation and uh also right by Penich Middle School is uh where uh Penach Waterworks has done there. I would call that also a collocation. So there's a few examples of that out

077there. Um they don't all look great. So, I will say the one in Milford, it isn't an industrial zone. It's on Savage Road. Um, it it really is kind of right there. There's no screening. It's almost right on the road. Um, the two other examples are you cannot you can't see them from any public right away. They're completely screened uh just because they're in the middle of large parcels. So, obviously, if you look at the aerial, it's you know, looks like a pretty significant um array. Uh both arrays are pretty substantial. Um I'm not showing these now. So, those are some examples. I'd like to find some more examples though of different ones uh that we could kind of take a look at and decide. I I I to me at least the big takeaway

078was um and these are all dual use. They're not single use, although they're so large that they're really would be the same as if they were. But the the big differentiator I saw was the visual impact. Um, you know, when you can't see it, it doesn't matter almost. Um, when it's right up on the road, you can see it. Maybe it doesn't offend you, but you it's it's very very apparent. So, probably for the next time we chat, I'll try to get some of these examples and put them together in a little bit of a slideshow. Beyond that, substantively, I don't know if anybody has any thoughts as to these Yeah, solar as a use is definitely not a high value one. >> Yeah, >> there's not a lot of economic activity from the use,

079but it also doesn't utilize um the town resources much either. Um so it's kind of like just an ugly undeveloped lot. Um, like I noticed the Fidelity one just driving by on the ever turnpike. It uh was like, "What happened here?" >> It's huge. >> It is huge. >> Well, I don't necessarily know if they have ex I haven't seen examples or witnessed examples out there other than, you know, the things that you're talking about, but um I happen to be doing work out in Hillsboro. um the town, not the count, you know, the town of Hillsboro. And they have uh in their ordinance a 10page write up, which I found very interesting. They had lots of definitions and frankly they weren't as intimidating as that one. And it um they boiled it down to

080um you know community solar, ground mount, industrial solar, large commercial solar, primary agriculture. They really they put it in what I considered to be more layman's terms so that you understood like you didn't even need a visual because their the clarity of their definitions were there. Do you know what I mean? Y >> um I mean don't get me wrong, it's always helpful to have a visual, but um for for the absence of visual in their ordinance. It was remarkably clear and they talked about um there's various sections in here that talked about um the criteria for approval um with certain uh depending on the kind that you're using um and the the heights and the buffering and like all of that. And I just I thought it was nicely done. whoever did it took

081a lot of thought and care in um how they wanted things to look. Now again, I preface this with when I was out there, I didn't see any examples of that, so who knows if in practice it's actually, [laughter] you know, working. Um but uh but anyway, I thought um that was a that was a good example. So if anybody uh wanted to Google that and take a look, it might be >> I will Google that >> nice to check that out as well. >> So I I'll at least try to see if I can come up with some good examples. My sense though is is that what I don't sense a lot of enthusiasm for going in this direction, but maybe this is something that my my guess is at this point it might

082take more to really put something together that is workable than we have time for in this year's time frame. But I'll still come up with some examples. Yeah, I would start to think about it because you're going to get to a point, I think, where things are going to get put in that you don't want and then you're going to have no recourse because you don't have it >> out there. >> Could happen. >> Yeah. So um and to your point maybe maybe we can't do that in this sitting but you know in this stre next stretch but but I think we I agree that you bring it up in the last few meetings. I think it's something we we should definitely make sure we address. I think it's something we need to research definitely

083more and um if it's appropriate for like the master plan or something or a vision of literal >> download somewhere you could do something with that makes sense. Okay, >> that's all we got. >> Can I just tell you one thing? >> Yeah, I just so I meant to tell you when I was here our shop on five by 17. There was some when Jim was here last time on the gas station. >> Yeah. >> Talk about taking down all the trees. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Taking the trees down. I got them to redesign and use the the same pond we have there. So the trees >> Okay, great. >> It'll look a lot better. >> Yeah. >> The one up by the power lines. The >> No. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. before the

084power lines where where the um this the um >> guy >> barbecue guy in that parking lot those trees were going to get cut down and I guess at the last meeting when they were here for the gas station >> when they changed something those were getting cut down >> and I know um was it Luke Heron had raised that concern through yeah >> they're not they're not okay they're not >> fixing the the pond so they're all >> stay good all right good >> thank you for that for [laughter] the clarity I thought you were coming in to give us your opinion on solar, >> right? >> I know. I know your opinion on solar. [laughter] >> I don't like solar, but we're actually going to build a solar farm. It's in London. >>

085Yeah. >> By the by the um by the shooting range. >> Okay. Out in the middle of >> out in the middle. We have a piece of land out there. We're actually building one up in >> up in Len, too. We're just getting ready to get started on that one. >> But again, you can't see it unless you're flying over it. >> Yeah. the only time that >> would you as a developer would you ever consider putting them on the garages on the roof of the garages? >> The biggest problem with putting solar on a house or garage when you have to re-roof it, >> you have to take all the solar panels. So, your garage roof goes from X to Z and beyond because you have to take all the panels down to redo

086the shingles. So, and a lot of people get caught with that and that's that's a big expense. So, >> yeah, >> I don't know. I'm not when they're on the roof, you don't you don't notice them as much, >> right? >> Um I don't know what the savings is. Well, as I said, I think, you know, more research and if you know something >> Yeah. I think if for a solar farm to be in town, I Yeah. The whole farm, I think you need to need to be well screened. >> I mean, you go down to Massachusetts and there's like millions of farms. I That's just >> Yeah. And some of them you see from the highway and they blind you. Right. >> Well, yeah. And that's the thing. It's Yeah. So, we need to

087we need to think very seriously about getting something in so that we don't have something we don't want >> in town. >> Right. I agree. >> Right. [snorts] >> All right. Have a good day. >> All right. So, more to come. You have more to come. >> You going to bring up the signs on Albuquerque? >> I I don't know enough about it. I'll have to do some research. I wasn't prepared. >> I I missed the last meeting and I don't remember when we talked about it. >> Was this something that we brought up or there something for the board of selectment? select that right now. >> Can you provide us what what that is or? >> Yeah. So, a high level the ordinance is is you cannot have signs on Albuquerque. Okay. Or on

088town roads really. Um that includes small for sale signs. Uh the concern comes in when Campbell graduates come out and we line or they line I should not say we they line Albuquerque with those signs. >> You're really not supposed to. or if the fishing derby you put a sign out or you know conservation has something planned they put a sign out um so the discussion was is what can we do what should we put in place um where those kind of signs can be permitted and I think it'll have to come before the board I don't remember the exact details of it but it was something around that where we'd have to change the ordinance and then they'd have the approval but what we don't want is people coming out you know hey I

089I'm going to roof your house I'm sticking a sign here. I'm sticking a sign here. Sticking a sign here. You know, nailing signs on the telephone poles. But we want to be able to allow for town purposes signs to be placed. You know, Spirit of Lfield Christmas parade, >> uh, Campbell High School graduates, fishing derby. >> Yeah. As written now, it's uh, no signs except town and state highway direction and regulatory signs may be used on Albuquerque Avenue. Full stop. That's it. That's it, right? >> So, the Halloween display at the pink house on the corner can't be with no signs. [laughter] >> Is it not a sign? >> That's my entertainment every week. Like, [laughter] >> seriously, I want to see what happened next. >> We might be in First Amendment territory. >> I

090know, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So yeah, we're going to have to um discuss that at the board on what we want to do and I imagine it would have to come back to the planning board, right, for final approval or discussions. >> Well, it's a in the zoning. >> It would be a zoning. >> So it be >> right amendments. Yeah. That would could be potentially a simple amendment if it's something that >> we wanted to do >> and that would be for the zoning and it would have to be >> Yeah. >> And it' be a good idea for it to go to town meeting because that would be a >> sure that significant change. So people would want to weigh in. >> Yeah, I would agree. >> And then would you

091recommend that Z Well, I wouldn't want ZBA to get caught up in that because they may not meet quick enough >> so it would be a board of selectment to approve. >> Yeah. >> To get it on the warrant. >> Yeah. Planning board would get on the warrant. >> Planning board would get on the warrant. ZBA says it's not allowed, but the planning board could override it kind of thing. >> Well, no. Town meeting the town meeting would do it, but it would be the planning put forth by the planning board, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. >> Yeah, that's I I agree. We should have it because for those situations. >> So that'll allow us to craft what those exceptions should be. So that'd be that'd be a pretty simple amendment. >> Yeah. >> Speaking

092of signs on Albuquerque, what will the uh development like the one proposed here for the Colby for farm development? What will they be able to do in terms of signage >> right now? >> Nothing. >> Could they shove it in the corner along 3A instead of Albuquerque >> on 3A? Yeah. >> In 3A. Yeah. >> So then Yeah. Then the people are just going to have to realize, okay, I got to turn here on Albuquerque to get in. >> Yeah, that's that's going to be something to think about operationally. How is that exactly going to work? Because >> right, >> you definitely want something there to make it clear that you're supposed to come enter there, >> right? >> You probably have a real estate sign at Morgan Road. >> Yeah. I mean, you're you're

093probably going to have to if you've got your freestanding sign on Charles Bankraftoft, you're that I mean, you're probably have to do something with an arrow and entrance on Albuquerque. You're going to have to, >> which is why it's not a driveway, it's a road. >> Well, that one they're saying is a driveway. Morgan is a road. >> Well, they can call it anything they want, but we can also call it what it should be. So that, you know, >> they designed it that way. That's right. Because that would allow them to at least have a directional sign. >> Mhm. >> Exactly. >> Which you really want something >> there. >> Yeah. I mean, >> is there any downside to them calling it a private road? >> No. Well, for them it means that they

094would have to build it to town standard, which is more expensive certainly than what they're anticipating. >> Yeah. >> I think they would probably rather go for a driveway waiver. I don't want to speak for them, but yeah. >> And can they put a sign if it's a driveway as long as it's >> not under these regulations? >> Not in Albuquerque. So they would either two waivers or they would need to pay for a road. >> Well, they need variance. >> Yes. >> So then yeah, at that point >> Yeah. What's the They'll have to prove hardship, >> right? >> They have to meet the five criteria, >> right? >> Yeah. In addition, including hardship, >> which I guess the hardship there would be people would miss or not know how to get into the

095property. Maybe, >> maybe. Um, >> guess there's an entrance coming off of Albuquerque. That Morgan Road entrance. You don't need a sign for that other than just the street sign. >> You don't need a big banner sign saying you are here. >> Yeah, but the commercial part of it. >> I'm sure there'll be facing 3A. You put the sign on 3A. >> That's what you probably would have to do is put the sign in 3A and just make it clear to people >> that the entrance is on Albuquerque, but no sign. There's no sign there. Um, >> yeah. >> Could get a little confusing for >> Right. So, you take a left off Charles Bankraftoft onto Albuquerque and if you're not paying attention, you'll miss that quick exit to the right. >> Yeah. Or you'll

096do a Uturn. >> Yeah. Go down Morgan Road and come back in. >> Very way. >> Yeah. And that's why we asked the question about Morgan Road, whether it went through because if you're going south on Charles Bankraftoft and you're like, "Oh, I want to go in there. How do I get in there?" you uh you're going to be getting U-turns going constantly. >> Yeah, >> you will. >> Roman >> be really bad for traffic patterns, >> right? That obviously when it comes in that's going to be something to take a look at. >> Yeah, >> it' be interesting to see what their engineer comes with. And and although I >> traffic engineer >> don't want to jump the gun, I'm hoping both developments are taking each other's development into account >> in their traffic

097studies. >> Because needless to say, it's not just this, >> right? >> It's also across the street. >> Also, the street, >> right? So, you kind of got to look at the whole picture, >> but we don't have to decide that yet. Do you think >> Well, it'll be an interesting discussion for the technical review committee, [laughter] >> right? >> Do you think it would be possible to put a roundabout at the intersection of Colby Road and 3A and then have an actual entrance there >> at Colby Road? >> At Colby, >> a roundabout hut. >> I think he's trying to eliminate that left turn onto KBY from Albuquerque because it's just so dangerous. So forcing people to take a left onto Albuquerque and then into the parking lot and then his other entrance is

098coming north. You could pull in or if you're exiting going north, you get to exit. But if you cannot get into that facility off Charles Bankraftoft coming south and you cannot continue down south >> because of the way Charles Bankro curves and and it's limited sight lines, it's really safe to have the across there. Yeah, >> I mean it would be important to have their traffic engineer in here and >> you know really talking about >> or we'll grill them, [laughter] >> right? And just making sure there's that holistic look because that's >> you want to make sure that you cross the eyes and not >> and what does it look like with the light >> across the teeth? >> I don't yet have that worked out in my mind as to what that would

099be like. >> Yeah. And with the light there, the only direction that really has a problem is taking a left off of Albuquerque, I'd say. >> Right. >> Every other direction it does, it's not a problem. >> Yeah. When they said the warrants were triggered, I assume that that must be the warrant because that's the same thing that we had up the road at Corning Road that it's the lefthand turn that triggers the warrant. >> Yeah. >> Of course. Like fortunately for that scenario, a lot of the southbound traffic can just go south on Albuquerque and then use a different left turn. Um like going south and then taking Hillcrests. >> But the but the left turn, are you talking about the left turn to go heading south to into Albuquerque? Uh, no. You're on

100north on Albuquerque, taking left South 3A, >> right onto Charles Bankraftoft from Albuquerque. That's probably what's triggering the war. >> Oh, left onto South. >> Yeah, >> that's just my guess, but >> you don't get much traffic going that way, but the traffic, >> right? Exactly. But that's also I mean the other one is pedro that also has a the warrant are triggered for the lefthand turn >> which just anybody knows intuitively if you're trying to turn left >> page to 102 you >> you don't is that one in Hudson. Yeah. >> Yeah. Just on the Hudson side of the >> town. Right. >> Yeah. That one. Yeah. I wonder if that'll ever happen. >> I've been waiting 25 years. It still hasn't happened. >> The state's not going to pay for it. >> State's

101not going to pay for it. >> All right. Okay. Very good. >> What's the date of the next meeting? November. >> Four. I think >> November 4th. Anything else on work session tonight, master plan? >> That is all I have. >> Anybody have anything else? >> So, when are we having our um public hearing on the >> You can only go so many days ahead of town meeting. So, >> right. I mean, we would probably unless [clears throat] we wanted to have something sooner, we'd probably be looking at January 6 >> the first meeting >> for the first public hearing. How early are you allowed to do the public hearings? >> We could do one in December if we wanted to >> not November. >> I'd have to check. I'd have to do the count

102back >> um to see if we could do one in November. But we I mean we've got workshops, so we I assumed that we'd be probably still in workshop mode. [clears throat] Um although for the two that we've voted to put forward, I mean we could. It's it's a choice. you might as well group [snorts] them all together. >> Yeah. >> I guess is is there any follow-up discussion regarding the square footage discussion that um was brought up at the beginning of today's >> Yeah. I I I you know, hearing that I I thought maybe I'll try to put together something. We can talk about it at a work session. Um, and although this wasn't a public hearing, we heard it. So, I think it's something we could So, there's two ways we could go

103about that. We could um amend what we already have at a future work session and then send that to public hearing or we could wait till the public hearing because we can still make substantive changes after the first public hearing. So we could maybe hear additional input on the issue of square footage and then make a decision uh at that time that we want to amend it. >> Yeah. And also we could probably if we would it make sense to have if we have square footage changes have that as a separate warrant article so that we can have people accept the things that we need to do because we're required by law but have the increase the change in square footage requirements be a separate thing >> could um because I wouldn't >> I I

104have to think it through but there yeah I mean there's more than one way we could go about measuring it. So yeah, but we could do it as separate warn articles. Absolutely. If we have a concern that one would pull down the other, >> especially that way if we change the square footage, I think that should be a separate voting item >> because the other changes are changes to comply with the change in state law. The square footage question of increasing it is discretionary. So that's a good point. We could make those two separate warrant articles. Yeah. And yeah, with the square footage itself, we're definitely getting um uh variance requests for that. Have to wait. I have to think. Let me think about that whether we really could do that because we also don't

105want to have two different square footages pass. >> Yeah, that would be problematic. we would have to um amend probably want to amend a specific section, >> right? But if you pass an amendment to the ADU because right now we have a square footage requirement in there. So if that passes as that is and then you had another one passing with a different square footage requirement and both passed then you would have the question of now which one do we do because both passed. So I don't think >> I'll think it through but I don't think we could do that but I do think we could um do the description as to what is included separately. That's a possibility. Um, I'll think on that too, but it's also one of the values. I mean, today

106we heard input from somebody on the square footage issue and that was one opinion. Increase it to 950. >> We named the language so that there's not these carveouts happening in the plan making it more difficult to interpret what the actual square footage is, >> right? >> And that's easily done. But we might go to public hearing and we might hear people say, "No, it should be a thousand." Or we might hear people say, "Gee, that's too big." So >> we might wind up at a different place after we go to public hearing. >> Yeah. So I have in front of me the plans that were proposed that were submitted for the variance request last night. And on it there's a pretty reasonably sized kitchen. There's a reasonably sized living room. Um, let me see

107if I can read any of It's like a It has a nice 12 foot wide countertop on the K long countertop on the L-shaped kitchen. Yeah. 13 feet wide and the entire the kitchen and another I can't read that. It's obscured. It's another probably 13 feet. So, it's a reasonably sized kitchen and living room. And then on the second floor was two bedrooms and a full bath. >> Yeah. Downstairs was a living room, kitchen, half bath. Upstairs was two full bedrooms and a full bath. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's the second bedroom that >> tips it over the our requirement or a maximum right now. So yeah, depending on how you define the square footage, it's either 900 uh low 900 range or,22 or something like that, >> right? And it's detached. >>

108It's attached. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um >> it's a new new construction and it would be basically the place of a third garage. And the description sounds like you wouldn't even tell it's there because it is a new construction. So it would just blend in. But it's the, you know, now you're at, is it 925 or is it,25? >> Wow. >> Yeah. I mean, that's language we can tighten up. >> I I I'm pretty sure if somebody were to put their house on the market, they would not be subtracting all their closets and their stairwells from their square foot. >> Yeah. >> Right now, when you you tax your tax on your square footage, including closets, including >> stairways, of course. >> Yeah. Looking at this design, it's definitely a very comfortable square footage for an

109ADU. Um and apparently they said that they could they were wanted to make it bigger I think but they shrunk it to make it closer to the requirements. Uh another question we have is is this acceptable >> because currently our regulations say it's not >> right >> but it doesn't really change much in terms of the what people see on the outside. Do you know how big what the regulations are in Hudson? cuz I know that there are a lot of luxury uh new construction developments where like every unit has an ADU on it, right? >> I I don't think Hudson I'll have to double check, but I don't think they increased theirs beyond 750. >> So, >> but of course like everywhere they've seen variance cases and >> ash was seeing very everybody's seeing

110variance cases on ads. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the downside of this scenario is um you're more likely to get a variance if you just build a space with unfinished area that just happens to be bigger than the um the requirement and then saying later you want to change it to an ADU then if you just build it for an ADU in the first place. Um because like that's what happened on the gigantic one on um 3A um near Hillrest. >> Oh, and interestingly, we're also having a conversation around what's a two family, what is a duplex, >> and at what point are you a duplex? >> Yeah. >> Right. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Regarding the definition of duplex, it sounds like we might want to go in the direction of having a required wall either

111horizontal or vertical and maybe a minimum square footage of area of that overlap. Not too much because you want to have probably some shifting of the properties um because it it does look debatably look better um than the just colonials that are just split in half which have a full overlap. But um yeah. Yeah, we probably want to have at least a some overlap so they don't end up with a foot wide >> thing. >> Just it's interesting to think of all the nuances that we're talking about where >> at what point are you just like you could have two units, >> right? Attached, detached, whatever. You can have two units because we're really trying to, you know, we're trying to define like what do you what do you include? What don't you include in

112square footage? what it what constitutes attached. Well, you could have a detached ADU. >> So, it's it's starting to look >> and I've never heard of not including closets in the living area. This is news to me and I've been doing this for 13 years. So, I I like I mean I you know I'm sure there those things exist and if it happens that's really bizarre to me. Um I hope it doesn't happen but sounds like it does. >> It does. >> Yeah. I think all all of the um aus have used the other require definition >> because like there was one that came to us and we're like oh it adds up to a little more than that and then was like oh we just subtract this and this. >> So yeah you'll see

113language your next meeting we'll see what it looks like. >> Yeah. >> Okay. or both of these. >> The next meeting we have no cases coming in, no applicants coming in, so you can have a full work session. >> Okay. >> November 4th. >> Yeah, sounds good. >> Okay, that'll be good. >> I [snorts] I will be out of town. Surprise, surprise. >> Can you join us by noon or weather? >> I I'm going to say no because we typically work till about 8:00. >> Oh, wait a minute. >> No, that's election day. >> No, no, it's not election day here, though. Oh, that's Oh, yeah. There's no elections here. Okay. Anybody here? November. >> November. November. >> All right. So, we're good. >> Um, and yeah, it was also good to hear the um

114info from Rick Charbano regarding the how he prepared the units for charging. >> Yeah. >> Now, he just has a conduit to the meter box for every single unit. Um, that seems like a [snorts] much better than nothing because if you don't have that conduit, it is very cost prohibitive. >> I was a little surprised to hear that out of 60 units, only one person took advantage. >> 60 people, >> I'm not surprised at all. >> Explained it well at all. >> Well, >> there's so much >> electric vehicles doesn't shock you. >> Incompatibility between all the lack thereof. >> That's what I'm saying. Sounds like you >> like [clears throat] realistically I think if you have conduit like that it would probably be around one to two thou probably like one and a half

115to $2,000 to get an EV charger put in in the garage. So that's cost prohibitive for a lot of people. >> Sour EVs. >> Yeah. Yeah. And no more tax break. >> But you cannot realistically have an EV without a charger in their garage because you need to charge at home. It's you're they're not designed for you to charge um using rapid chargers. It's inefficient, costly, um and only some people have the luxury of work chargers. That's right. I think at a minimum requiring like the conduit for example so that if the developer didn't wasn't proactive like him then there would still be at least something ready >> some minimum standard >> right especially in the detached garage there >> you're certainly not going to dig a conduit after the fact >> yeah that is

116cost prohibitive that would balloon like two grand well it sounds like it's on the radar of this developer and I'm sure many others So, you know, if they can build it in when they build the stuff, it sounds like they're doing it anyway, whether they get participants or not. So, >> yeah, without the conduit, it'll probably jump the cost from like $2,000 to like $10,000 maybe. I don't know. Very cost privitive because it you have to dig up pavement and stuff. >> Yeah. Okay. Very good. So, we'll have a workshop for our next uh next next meeting. All right. Um, next item I have on the agenda is um approval of the October 7th minutes. Um, I will note that it the typically we have any other business, but importantly that was not on this

117agenda. Um, so I'm not going to go into any other business because it's not listed on the agenda for tonight. So I will go drop down to approval of October 7th minutes. Did anybody have an opportunity to take a look at those? Have any questions or concerns? And does anybody want to entertain a motion to approve them? >> I just had a question about where the red line kind of corrections came from. Um, does anyone know a little more content? He has the red lines on there. >> Yeah, he like crossed out I think what was old and then kind of put it was mostly like tax map lot situation. >> I had the wrong tax map. Okay. >> On there. And then um it was one that he missed on the top of the

118second page where it says um >> Laura Fidet or forget >> he did he fixed Laura. Oh yeah, down here. Laura at the top of that page it says butters. It should be aba a b u t >> in the third paragraph towards the end of the page the end of the sentence >> fees had been paid in the abuters. >> Okay. But other than that no one else sees anything that >> no one has anything else. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from October 7th 2025. >> All right. All right, I have a motion. Do I have a second? >> Second by Litha. Any further discussion? All right, we'll take a vote. All those in favor of approval of the minutes as amended by the um uh secretary or our appointed secretary,

119Mr. um what's his name? >> Matthew Sullivan. Thank you. My I'm having Alzheimer's. um as as amended by Matthew Sullivan. Um so we'll take a vote. All those in favor of the motion, please signify by to approve these minutes, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> Those opposed? Anybody abstaining? >> I. >> All right. Motion. I'm going to see if I can do this. Motion passes. 62. >> 52. >> 56. >> Wait a minute. 502. Yeah. 62. Oh, that's right. One, two, three, four, five. You're right. So, um, motion passes five zero two. Sorry. It was close. I was close. I was close. Um, >> I for and committee reports didn't get on there. It's new template template. >> Okay. Yeah, normally I would, but because it's not on this agenda, I'm not going

120to do that because it's not on the agenda. So, Um, so I guess since we don't have any other business this evening, um, I'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> Motion by Letha. Second. >> Second by Jesse. Any further discussion? All those in favor signify by saying I. I. >> Those opposed. Anybody abstained? Motion passes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 0. All right. Our next meeting is when, Joan? >> November 4th. >> Our next meeting is a November 4th. Uh that'll most likely be a workshop. I hope uh thank you for joining us this evening. And um happy Halloween if we don't see you. And uh we will um definitely um be back in November. Have a good night. Thank you. Tough one.