School Board Workshop (AM Session Part 1): July 25, 2022

001good morning good morning my name is amanda clapp i am thrilled to be here with the school board of lee county to start the process of working through the neola templates and reviewing your current adopted policies i am pleased to have with me today melinda mcnichols mindy she is just starting with niola she has been assistant general counsel for miami-dade for i can't tell you how many years and 18. and is a welcome addition to our team and she has great legal expertise that she can share with you as well as lots of years of experience in school systems francis st james frankie she is also has been part of our team now for a lot of years 14 14. and she her last position was as deputy superintendent for the monroe county schools so

002she comes with some of the expertise from your subject matter experts and is wonderful to help staff as they are drafting through this process and then as you were getting ready to turn it over already to mr young i sometimes don't think he needs any introduction however he has many years of various experiences he was the general counsel for teachers union he was a school board member in leon county and a board chair so he has some experience sitting where you guys have sat and he also is a mediator arbitrator and his last position was as assistant superintendent for human resources in charlotte county so he also has some experience working with the administrators and subject matter experts as well so without further ado i am sure mr young will tell you a little more

003about himself but he will begin this process with all of you and thank you for the opportunity thank you ms clark and i apologize that i should have introduced you all first i was thinking that it's 905 so i apologize for that please mr good morning board members good morning counselor i won't add any reason to amanda's introduction other than to say that i have and this always surprises me when i say it when i hear myself say it i have 50 years of experience with public education in florida and things have changed in 50 years so we begin this process today with board bylaws the board bylaws are unique to the policies that you're going to be considering because these are the bylaws that deal with or these th are the policies policies and

004bylaws i guess you use interchangeably we call them by-laws they are the they're the rules that you have you will set aside you will prove that will govern the way you do business they are uniquely yours and you can make them as unique as you wish each district is unique and their policies ought to reflect their unique nature the way i typically do this with boards is i indicate to them as i understand here the board members have had an opportunity to review these bylaws these are recommendations by the old based upon our experience based upon the law based upon best practices they are not written in concrete they are a place to start if you wish to change them you may this is what we will be talking about today if you have current

005policies in your chapter one which you think ought to be part of the bylaws this is the place to discuss those this process is challenging what you're doing now is what staff will be doing throughout their preparation they'll be discussing your the various policies for which they have a responsibility and they'll be making recommendations to you through the superintendent as to how those policies ought to read here you don't have the opportunity to discuss them privately as staff does because your board members and we are in the public and the rules do not permit you to discuss them among yourselves so this is your first opportunity to do this the way i typically perceive is and i don't know do you have these this screen on your on your screens as well yes okay similar

006this is a list an index of the bylaws let's just start with the one well let's look at the screen what we typically do is say board members you've had a chance to review this do you have any questions or comments and we'll pull out the bylaws about which you have comments or questions if you have no comments or questions on a particular bylaw we're going to assume that you have reviewed that bylaw and that it's acceptable to you in its current form so if you have questions or comments about a bylaw this is how we start and if you would if you have a question or comment about a bylaw this is a proposed bylaw a neola template give us the number and we'll pull it up and we'll talk about it the board

007members the floor is yours you have questions or comments about any of the bylaws that have been submitted to you for your review of questions and comments so i'm not entirely sure how how you want me to start start with the first one which one do you have a question about and as as you have your questions or comments other board members may chime in what we'll be looking for here is a consensus if there is one that is obvious and then we'll move to the next particular question but go ahead miss patricia all right well i'm just looking at definitions right now on page 10 the definition of principle i didn't understand what it meant the principle shall be the administrative and supervisory head of the school to which assigned by the board i

008don't i don't know what that means can you miss patrick when you do that i know we have a bunch of different numbers can you yeah i'm working from our binder page nine in our binder i'm not sure amanda because i think he's gonna need is there a word this in here it's this is p-o it's zero one two two that's the code yeah i think she's looking at definitions po100 definitions and she's looking at the definition of principle right and madam chair yes please i have a question general question i submitted oh what how many pages of comments in writing is it necessary for me to to review all of these publicly now or is this something that's been particularly the scrivener's errors is this something that's already been incorporated i don't i mean

009i can i gave this all to you a couple weeks ago so i'll be corrected if the council for the board or the president of the company has a different opinion but my opinion is that what questions you have raised need to be raised before the group as a whole and the group has the obligation or opportunity to comment on yes we would need to go through all of your comments or questions in my opinion in the public forum here okay so amanda or i would say the scribner errors we will make sure that the things that are like grammatical that you have recommended technical changes technical changes you do not need to necessarily address unless the rest of the board feels strongly about knowing what those those corrections are but i would leave that

010to council and she can let you all know these are the documents that were emailed to you previously so i would agree with you ms clapp that any technical changes or scrivener's errors that are not substantive can be addressed when we review the policies substantive changes what we want to discuss okay so we're still on the one that miss patricka had mentioned because so i agree with you ms morgan and i was going to send my scriptures errors comments separately but i didn't know if this was substantive because i simply didn't understand the sentence when i read it i think it's awkwardly ordered the principal shall be the administrator the supervisor head of the school to which he or she has been assigned okay to which they have been assigned are we using they now

011instead of he she which they have been assigned by the board and shall be responsible for the enforcement of regulations this is the second sentence is important in policy principle capital p or principal lowercase p implies the authority to delegate responsibilities to appropriate staff members unless prohibited by law or board policy there is only one other person or position that has this same delegatory authority and that's the superintendent in all other positions that are named in the policy those positions are the persons or individuals who are responsible for the implementation of the policy here a principal is defined as one who can delegate that responsibility to one of his staff is this that this changed yeah yeah that's that's fine that was that was scribner's error again i just the way i read it and

012i didn't realize that so can i go on yes please so page 10 social media the last sentence the definition of social media the last sentence indicates that if a an app or a web service is not going to be considered social media unless it's listed on the district's website so we have a separate social media policy and employment consequences can result if an employee uses it incorrectly student discipline consequences can occur if it's used incorrectly if it's not listed on the social media platform but an employee or a student uses social media inappropriately does that policy not apply okay can i and i'm sorry because i know we're all trying to follow when we're looking at this binder that we have page 10 like if i open page 10 right now the first page

01310 i'm at member powers okay so i'm on your definitions definition so that's the green tabs it's the back part just so that i know everybody's trying to find stay with you i'm confused it's tab number one is it page three of four yeah so my orange is in the back and my green is in the front so i don't i don't have no green she has an arrogance first can i suggest that we just click it off of what's on the object and we just go to those numbers because that way the public and everybody knows where we're at this is what neola is using as well so if we follow it through what was provided to you in board docs that's the best way to do it yes so what number so the

014po number would be under the words social media thank you so my concern here is that social media platforms change all the time new ones are created and come into popular use and the district isn't always going to have them listed on the website so does this definition say if it's not listed on the website we cannot enforce that policy do you understand my question yes amanda or frankie both of you are more knowledgeable in the area of social media than i am you have a response to that question my first reaction is we have extensive policies not in the bylaws which are much more specific in this regard and those policies would guide the employees and the students and the public regarding what constitutes social media i want to look at one of our

015other our social media policy so i can provide you with a better answer so just give me one second i'm sorry i'm trying to pull that up amanda i'm wondering whether or not we need that last sentence it could be removed but i wanted to see how it related to our 7544 which is our social media policy to make sure that there wasn't something in there that there was a reason for why we had it as it was written but i would recommend striking it if for disciplinary questions there does anybody else have any comments on that what i mean are we referring to since we're using this which po number is okay it's 100 definition row 1 0 0 definitions and it's page three that we're on at the current time because i had

016a question about definitions as well okay i found it so right now we're speaking on the last sentence on social media is what they're speaking on at this moment it should be an optional sentence in there as well in the definitions because it is an option within our social media policy to list them on the district website so i would recommend since you want to make sure that you are able to take appropriate action even for the new lisbon things that come out that we might not know about today that are listed i would go ahead and strike that if everyone else feels comfortable we will address that specifically in the social media policy 70 we can address it at that time with more specificity if you wish is there any objection from the board

017members to deleting that last sentence okay next question still on definitions madam chair i don't have any more questions until we get to po123 version one thank you i have miss morgan and then miss kittens please so i would like to add two definitions board briefings board advisory committees district committee meetings internal auditor and minutes i also have an edit well district based non-instructional administrators page two of four we need to add executive directors and any changes per superintendent vernier's current org chart where would that be added please under district-based non-instructional administrators i'm on page two yes page two second paragraph okay and where would you have where would you put it and what what would it say i would add executive directors and any changes per superintendent bernier's current org chart i didn't specify

018the various jobs sure board briefings board advisory committees district committee meetings internal auditor and minutes okay and ms patricka has a question regarding the comment ms morgan would you be comfortable with instead of naming the superintendent just say the superintendents or chart changes as they may occur perfect just because hopefully these policies will last for 50 years and as much as we love you i'm not sure you'll be here 50 years from now dr bernier fine thank you so you would add that at the very end then perhaps after finance and such other staff members as are designated what was the language you used ms morgan now i'm looking at art to superintendents so it would yeah fine at the end of the sentence it's fine okay so we've added executive director and at the

019very end we've added and such other staff members as as are designated on the superintendent's organizational chart okay okay is there any way that we can we can't put the changes that are being made on our second screen so that way we can keep up with what's going on miss thomas can you find out if we can do that please thank you second screen we can't because we have we have a second screen we don't have that up here in front of us right and we can't see it right so we're going to try to get that on our second screen so that way where everybody's following along with you all that would be helpful yeah it would be really helpful i can't write that fast but i think that the suggestion that was made

020by ms morgan is i think it's non-controversial on our screen i think okay thank you i think the language that's up there and such other staff members as are designated on the superintendent's organizational chart is i think that's consistently consistent with what this board is asking are there comments about that language this one yeah i just wanted to hear the whole i know we're going to type it out but the whole thing i don't really see the necessity of adding executive director because we have assistant director i mean things often change and if we have or others as designated whatever that wording is doesn't that cover it so why would we need more specific job titles there we don't well you said executive director that's a specific that's what i was looking at yeah that's

021why we're here to have conversations well that's what i'm saying madam chair and i think ms fisher was shaking her head that was she agrees with that one as well the ore so what are you what are you suggesting board members i'm not quite sure i'm i'm with you here so mr vaughn will you please restate what you're saying that you want to think i don't i don't have exact wording i was just saying that i don't think it's necessary to add more specifics for instance miss morgan had mentioned execute ad executive director if you're also adding again i don't remember the exact wording or such positions that the superintendent has on his or her organizational chart that covers it so it's kind of redundant to list when you're agreeing yes yeah all right i

022have a suggestion board members one of one of my pet peeves when we do policies and bylaws is making a list and then trying to determine whether or not the list is inclusive of everything and then what frequently happens is shall include and that's not very specific either so i'm wondering whether that would make sense just to keep the first sentence such personnel this is non-instructional administrators such personnel often report directly to the superintendent and supervise other administrative employees appearing strike the rest don't listen and i think implicit in that is anyone that's on the organizational chart which is a non-instructional employee is going to be covered by this policy it seemed to me that would be simpler to do and i think it would i'm not sure that you need to have listed and

023we did these are our words i'm not sure that we needed to list all of the quote non-instructional employees and just as liz morgan points out when we list such a group and leave some out what does that mean mr young i'm going to be a little contrary since these are the definitions i think that maybe having at least some in there and then the new statement as recommended about and others as designated on the superintendent's organizational chart so you're just saying just to leave that as is and then just add those other words and then that such other staff members as are designated on the superintendent's organizational chart that's the conclusion of the second sentence there that covers everybody then i don't mind being corrected by the president i mean that's i simply offer

024an opinion i think pardon me either either works from my point of view and since there has been a suggestion that suggests listing is a good idea what's what is it what's the board's preference mrs fisher well you know i think the all-inclusive statement that we ended at the end really covers it and the organizational chart frequently changes so that would be my input mr vanilli i agree well i i kind of go back to what they were saying if these are generic general overview definitions and that's what they should be is pretty much seems as if we have a consensus on this yeah yeah okay thank you thank you board members okay and then miss kittens you had something for definitions as well correct this is on the same one on on this particular

025one i'm i'm not sure that this is not scribner's but i want to bring it up in front of the board just in case it is can data processing be information technology because you have our major departments listed there essentially and i think that mr alton might take offense to data processing because there's a lot more to it than data processing so we do call it i.t and that's in line with the other categories that we have here because those are pretty major departments looks like a good catch to me thank you miss miss kittens please may i finally go thank you yes thank you this is about the same thing i just wanted to have you define for me the major tangible personal property and i guess the minor i'm a little confused about

026that is this from it says means any tangible personal property of a non-consumable nature etc etc personal property meaning like a teacher an individual that brings in their personal property is just considered the personal property of the district i'm not sure which that means i'll defer to amanda in reading the definition i'm i want to go to florida statute 274 however it does state owned by the board so this is so there is this using personal property that verbiage is related to the board's personal property is my question tangible personal property so maybe i need clarification on your question okay it reads means any tangible personal property of an argument owned by the board so we can enter change personal property and what the board owns is that what it's saying no this is directly

027from florida statute it speaks directly to property means all tangible personal property owned by a governmental unit which is use of the board of a non-consumable nature okay and where i was confused is owned by the board and then saying personal property i'm having trouble yes the balance there is odd but it is basically property owned by the board so it's like your computers or your ipads or things along the yes so real property by law is land and anything attached to it all other property is personal property so that's just a legal distinction in there the use of personal property doesn't mean individual people own it's just a distinction in the law to to decipher between real and personal property so i understand the confusion but the word personal doesn't mean owned by an

028individual it's just a category of property in the law yeah and there will be other policies that deal with actual personally owned staff equipment like if i bring in my iphone or i bring in my own ipad and have that on district property there there are some other policies in the collection later on that will deal with that but yes this is okay so i get it's it's a legal term but looking at the major tangible personal school property and minor tangible personal school property i'm trying to see the life expectancy is the same it's one year it's still using fs274 the value the value so why less than the less the amount defined and the other one is capitalized value or greater than the value defined so the value defined meaning the cost of

029the item i guess what i'm saying is why why don't they say basically the same thing except for the shouldn't the verbiage be the same except for the time factor and the amount but they all know that what if it's over five thousand bylaws are distinguishable because one is greater than the value defined and one is less than the value right and that's the differentiation so therefore everything else means any tangible personal property of non-consumable nature owned by the board which has a value should be the same in both and then and then then the one be greater than and the other one be less than do you understand what i'm saying sort of but we've mindy is going to try to give you a little so what the statute provides is that if property

030is valued if it's under five thousand dollars it can be this is what it says in the statute disposed of in the most efficient and cost effective means as determined by the governmental unit but any property that's over five thousand dollars has to be auctioned okay and i get the definition of what it is what i'm saying is they are both the same up to the point of that value you know if it's above or it's below i i'll let it go because you're not understanding what i'm saying she's trying to say that can they be consistent in their verbiage with the exception of the money amount is what i believe is what's good that's all i'm saying that first line needs to be the same means any tangible personal property of non-consumable nature owned

031by the board which has and then and then you go to the first one is capitalized value equal to the second one would say the same thing but then say with the life expectancy of one year i believe we can do that that change would would still be consistent with florida statute 274 and amanda unless you have a an objection will make this language identical except for the distinction about that under five is that what that is what you're speaking of right yeah i'm just saying for clarity's sake they're the same except for the value right right that's made the difference between major reminder thank you okay the you go with that one other questions about definitions 100. i think we're good okay miss morgan did you have one okay go ahead miss patrick you

032had another one though so not in definitions i don't have a definition i don't have any questions until we get to let me get there page 21. i know you guys want a po number yep number is social media a specialized question oh i'm sorry ms fisher yeah so going back to miss morgan's suggestion that we add briefing meeting workshop doesn't the definition of meeting really cover that even though it doesn't specify the differences in workshop and briefing and action meeting i mean it looks to me like it's any gathering which is attended by or open to all members of the board held with the intent etc etc all meetings shall comply with florida laws sunshine law so i didn't know if that was not and a more encompassing definition that included all the different

033kinds of meanings without specifying them we're stolen page that's page two and that is still 100 in definitions if you are i would suggest that the board consider ms morgan's recommendation to add definitions this is not something that we would do and that if the board has a consensus that more definitions are required then i'm going to make the assumption that the board attorney would make those definitions prepare those definitions for the board's consideration i'm not sure that they're necessary or not but that would be the way i would suggest that you might want to consider proceeding at this point i don't share miss kittens can i just make an overall statement as well that we need to consider we know that as of november we will def definitively have two new members at least

034so and as time goes on there will be new members on this board so i think we really should keep in mind that some things we understand at this point because we have been here for you know whatever number of years but people coming in and what if it shifts all together at some point we need to make sure for continuity that it's understandable by someone that doesn't have the same experience sitting here as we have good point ms patricka and i agree with that ms gittins i read this with an eye toward the future when none of us are here and the board attorney is not here it's fine to rely on our intent when we're defining words so later on we talk about regular meetings and it could be argued that a regular

035meeting is any meeting regularly scheduled to include a workshop because we have regularly scheduled workshops yet we don't allow public comment at workshops so the public could argue it's a regularly scheduled meeting i should be allowed to comment but our board doesn't function that way so i do think the distinction between meetings is important and that be consistently reflected throughout these policies i hear what you're saying ms fisher but i have a lot of comments coming up about the distinction between meetings so i think adding it to the definitions sort of does away with that confusion later on and we have to pretend like as i said here i tried to pretend like i don't know what the policies are and i need to read them and if they don't make sense to me with

036no base knowledge then the policy needs to change and just making sure that everything is consistent all the way through correct just like we did with that last one it's getting well and you know we're talking about meetings i thought about something like the like the agenda review that we do i mean for continuity of that where is that is that in the policy or is that in just the how do you define and make sure that the way of work matches the policy and how we do it protocols you have a protocol account but traditionalizing policies i don't know did you follow what i'm saying and i think the board members are making an excellent point that is the absolute purpose of these bylaws is to make it clear to future board members as

037well as the public and current board vendors about how the board operates and the point is made that future board members need to have some guidance as does the public so getting these definitions and these bylaws as clear as possible is a most appropriate goal so if i if i may as far as this particular one definitions on meetings are we looking to add those meetings in this spot mr trump i'd like to see a definition of workshop versus briefing versus action meeting because again i think that throughout the throughout the these policies we refer to regular meetings as action meetings but i think again it could it could be argued that a regular meeting is anyone regularly scheduled by the board in terms of ms gittin's comment the agenda review is an item on

038the agenda of the workshop it's not an actual agenda review meeting so that's covered by the definition of workshop but where my question is where if if if none of us were here tomorrow where is it covered it's on the agenda but someone picking up the agenda it says you know a gender review duh what does that mean you know what what is the definition and i'm just saying where do we put that definition definition and i also want to say i definitely agree with what you just said i have so many times defined to the public what a action meeting a briefing meeting a workshop and when they can participate or not where is that okay and we'll be getting that's going forward and i know miss vaughn you have a question please no

039i just wanted to respond to miss kittens i agree in terms of action meeting briefing workshop however agenda review which i really like is not something etched in stone i mean we put it in what three or so years ago when when miss kittens brought it up and it's had slightly different iterations and it's it's as somebody said it's just part of an agenda of a workshop so it wouldn't really be in the same category okay so anyone else have any comments regarding this what i what i hear then is and in response to a comment made in the skit where do you put this in the in the bylaws i guess you put it in two places one in the definition section and then in the section of the bylaws which deals with special

040meetings and as that section dealing with special meetings discusses special meetings it would be referring back to the definition to make sure that they are consistent i think we address much of this in the bylaws themselves without a specific definition i think the definition is in the bylaws but there's no harm whatsoever you're putting it in the definition section as well so let me ask a question if i may i think my purpose in bringing that up is to the clear and concise and understandable information for the public sure so is this information going to be in in one section of entitled public comment or entitled public input or you know to to go six levels in is going to be difficult for some of the public to say well what where where do we

041fit in this and what do we do so i'm just saying we need to make it clear simple easy to find i think you will see as we go through this entire section of bylaws that many of these questions which are being raised in the definitions are addressed in the bylaws okay i think one of the things that we might consider is moving along keeping this list amanda has put up there the definitions for minutes recording board advisory committees district committee meetings board briefings internal auditor workshop action meeting regular meeting and gender review keep those in mind and then when we finish doing the entire review of the bylaws and you still think there is a definition needed which is not explained in the bylaws then let's do that right that makes sense yes yes

042yes okay thank you so we are going to move on from this without without forgetting about that list we have it morgan put in and the comments that ms kittens made and miss patricka and miss fisher made as well and this vaughn those those questions are legitimate questions good questions i think they will be addressed in the bylaws as we as we come to them if they're not then let's go back and fix that perfect thank you for so moving on to what mr tom had said regarding this particular one yeah nobody has anything before po0123 version two if any if nobody has anything before that i could i can bring that up can you restate that one please p o zero one two three version two give me a minute one two versions yes

043are there questions before zero one two three version two if not let me this is a perfect place to talk about you see v1 and v2 that was my question those are two versions either of which is consistent with the law it is a question of preference as to which version you prefer which is more consistent with what with the way you view standards for boardsmanship one of them and i don't remember which one now is consistent with the fsba version of standards of boardsmanship and the other is consistent with the national school boards association version and that was kind of where my comment came in we no longer have any affiliation with nsba either individually as a board or through fsba so i don't think conversion one is appropriate in addition nsba is facing

044difficulty in terms of survival given its lack of membership so i think version two is most appropriate and i had no comments about what was in version two other than a whole acceptance of it acceptance of it as a whole and that is consistent with if not every board that we work with in florida at least the vast majority i don't know of one that uses the nsba standards that came from keep in mind that these templates are used in seven states including florida and some states have a greater affiliation with nsba than does florida and i would agree with mr cricket's comments okay miss kittens yeah that was something that i had written down as well i was had a little bit of angst to g in version one because it seemed very specific

045as opposed to in version two it's generic in other words we can get training and boardsmanship however we see fit at any time so that's why i'm i would agree with version two and with cosba now being the organization we will be modifying that template for florida to be reflective of your consortium that florida is now part of for version one at some point but i would agree that version two is where with the foreign association recommendations if i may please so you're saying you'll be modifying it to go along with cosmos so will you be having the verbiage that was in version one in version two because i'm saying regardless of who comes on the scene or which organization we leave it generic about the training two is what i'm gaining consensus and tom

046is seeing correct i just was suggesting that the neola template that references nsba needs to reference and that's internal yeah she was just speaking on her part but we agreed that version two is more appropriate for florida and for lee county steven ellie i'm right there with everybody campus fisher that's retrica i'm on to the next one okay misspot and miss miss morgan you're good with that too next question is kittens i know us well just and just on that just so that we're not back in this same situation once cosby gets in place that we're bringing this back again to see about changing it is that what we're saying no okay no no no no that was just for them for them themselves thought out out loud okay thank you okay and next number

047question yeah i had a question man yes on zero one two four i think before i ask my question does the board prefer option one or option two because my question is on option one and if the board doesn't want that one i don't have to waste your time with the question option one or option two for which one which number zero one two four standards of ethical conduct okay this is different from version one inversion two this is another choice however within one two four we have two options for you to consider so there is an option to that as well yeah that's page 13 too if you need to look at it in your paper now i'm following online it's easier for me yeah so there's selection and it states select option one

048or two and it gives the both of the options here if you can go by numbers so one two four standards of ethical conduct right and you're seeing there is also a version one and two no there are two vert two options within one two four oh okay you get one i got you gotcha which is on the second page i got you okay so if i could direct a question to the board attorney option one is you know verbiage surrounding standards of ethical conduct option two is if we already have a policy or we want to create our own specific policy regarding standards of ethical conduct that's really option two if i may attorney dupree bruno did we not have close to the beginning of your tenure and with the assistance of rsm did

049we not create a pretty comprehensive policy regarding this and should we abandoning should we be abandoning that at this point so the policy that was created was board policy 1.28 which is fsn education this policy that is in front of you today is specifically for the standards of ethical conduct for board members it is not the broad policy that we have in 1.28 which applies to everybody so this is a little bit more specific okay so then option one probably would be better since we don't already have a policy that addresses this yes attorney oh yes option one is very specific and it definitely codifies like some of the things for example conduct for the education profession that would be in both because that applies to teachers as well but this is very specific to

050the board and i'm i believe it also includes some things from one point i'm sorry from chapter 112 in there as well so option one would be better since it is very specific to the board's ethical conduct and on option one just below the first sentence there there's a bracket that is a choice every time you see that bracket that is optional and without being asked i will offer an opinion statements like this in board bylaws probably somewhat that's why it's optional statement says board members must have a sincere desire sir what does sincere desire mean exactly i'm with you on that and it's it's kind of i would respectfully suggest striking the oldest language there the option because i don't think it serves a useful purpose and can be a point of dispute at

051some point yes other than that i think that the standards of ethical conduct described there are appropriate and unless you have a specific question about one or more of them it sounds like there is general agreement that those those standards are appropriate for for the lord skins and then miss patricka well i'm i'm i've just lost my place is yes there was a word in there unreasonable members of the board shall strive i don't know i guess you know words like strive and we'll try and all of that we're dealing with the law the law says you do a b and c you don't try to do a and then do b and c just because you can so i mean seriously strive and attempt and you know we'll do our best to make sure

052kids are safe no the law says we will keep kids safe at all whatever it takes so i guess those words are to me or i don't know students are not unreasonably restrained where if we were you know doing this like defining a sentence what where where is unreasonably connected to what does that mean and if someone is reading this is there a reference to where they can go because it seems to me that if someone let's say a child is restrained and someone says okay this is not reasonable it's not defined then we go to court then we have legalities because now we're going to fight thousands of dollars later to say which is unreasonable which is not and i don't know what the answer would be but it's so cool yes i might

053the amanda has highlighted this section board members recognize their individual duty to promote the best interest in the district in doing so members the board shall be guided by the principles of professional conduct for the florida education profession fac 68 10.81 and then it says after that just go back for a second go back up okay which outlines the following ethical principles now these come from the principles of professional conduct these are not something neola made up these are in florida administrative code 6a 10.081 do you have to have them here no you don't is it is it worded with specificity so that everyone understands what it means no it doesn't but and i'm reminded that sometimes when you look at florida statues they don't make any sense amen sometimes the florida administrative code is

054not not what we would have written but unreasonably is in the code now i don't know what that means and it is certainly subject to dispute discussion but the question is do you want to have something like this in here at all if you do a place a guide for it is the principles of a professional conduct the board education profession in florida these are what these principles are what teachers are guided by what they are doing in this policy this bylaw is holding you to the same standards ethical standards that teachers are being held to can i finish yeah i but if i would appreciate miss kittens because i know we had spoke about the little bracket which we were on that to see if that's something that we want to keep in there

055or not and then we went down so if we go back to that one after okay let me make this take no you'll understand so thank you for the definition that this is fac 6810081 and it's from that so you know i can't take up my argument with the statute if it's from the statute then i rest my case and we and it's verbiage that's in the statute so we need to go to tao hassle so thank you and then so if we can go back to the bracket portion that he was speaking on regarding the board members must have a sincere desire to serve you would hope that but how do you i mean how do you control that part that's another one which so that's where you were on to be deleted correct

056so are we okay with taking that one out or what channel you say good miss fisher no thing no just that just that one that one sentence with that he spoke about that says board members must have a sincere desire to serve the educational needs of the community decisions must be based on best interests of students and not a political or personal interest which we should all know that do we want that in there that's the question i would keep that part i would keep that second sentence the decisions must be based on the best interest of students not on political or personal interest so but what part of that would you remove miss fisher the first the first sentence of it okay perfect i can agree with that with the second one it's not

057the first so how are you gonna enforce that you would exit i don't see that as enforceable because it's stuff that happens all the time right now it's been happening ever since i've been on the board all of these things so i don't see how you can enforce it there's a lot of subjectivity because personal interest for instance my personal interests may be looked at by some people as something political because it's found in somebody's political ideology i find it impossible to to to enforce i think it's too subjective thank you for that miss patrick in terms of enforcement i believe that is the chair's job in conjunction with the parliamentarian so if you know if i would sit here and say you know i want x y and z to happen because that's what

058the libertarian party tells me to do trying to be the least controversial as i can be then it would be on the chair to call point of order and say that violates our policy you're out of order period that's okay that's the point of these policies is it not that the board the chair and the parliamentarian keep us in line keep in mind that this sentence these two sentences that we're talking about here are also optional they are not required by law they are not the part of any law it is certainly possible that as ms vaughn suggests political or personal interests will vary will not be consistent i think you have you have three options here one is to strike the first sentence and leave the second two is leave it as it is

059completely and three is to delete it for four how about if we put a period at the end of students i was going to say that or four decisions this that this the sentence the section would read then simply decisions must be based on the best interests of students now again that's going to be subjective and there's no way to get away from that it's going to be in there surely it is the intention of every board member to do what's in the best interests of students you would hope right right and what that means is particularly separate questions so that may be a way to address this in the most brief and least controversial way possible i agree mr vinelli you agree with which one put period at the end like just what mr

060just stated i think that and leave it there students mrs fisher well you know i think we're setting standards for ethical conduct here so we may make statements about things that are not enforceable we can't tell each individual you know how to obey the law and how to follow directions and i would want to keep not on political or personal interest because i think i think that's an issue these days currently and we're working on bylaws for now and the future oh is she okay so i'm gonna give you an example that's gonna make it could be political or personal interest but what was best for students at the end of the day mass that became political became personal and was what was best for students masks but some people made it political some people

061made it personal and i think we have to talk about what's best for students and leave it at that's i still agree with that so thank you that's fine well actually i was thinking about mass and we can use any of the big controversial things for instance some of the things that come up about book banning pulling books from the library i happen to personally feel and i felt this way 25 years ago when i was registered in one party and i still feel this way and i'm registered actually as an independent now personally i think it's best for students to have freedom of access now they're going to be people out there that say well that's political no it's my personal view and you know if people out there want to as they do

062call me a communist or a socialist or whatever so be it but it's personal and i mean unless we're totally not paying attention to anything in in politics and politics change i mean things have changed in the past 10 years everything's going to turn out to be political oh you feel that way about mass because you're a democrat or you're a republican or you're this or you're that no it's how we felt personally of what was best for students and that's going to differ so i mean obviously i go with the consensus of the board but my feeling is zap the whole thing that it's if i might madam chair yes please this policy this bylaw whether it's included or not will not change the fact that what's in the best interests of the students

063is determined by the majority of this board when they vote on a particular issue this does not purport to assume that you would all agree on what the best interests are i think this assumes that there will be differences of course so i don't think that there's a problem keeping this or deleting what's in the best interests of the students will be determined by this board in an open meeting with the public input making a vote and making a decision so it's up to you about whether you keep this or not it's not going to change the fact that the best interests are determined by this board as a body okay miss morgan do you have any comments on this one no i say delete it miss no i think we leave the whole last

064sentence if nothing else than a reminder of our moral obligations as board members may not be enforceable but it's there i don't have a strong feeling either way i will go with the pleasure of the board i'm at this point i believe miss fisher has a strong feeling so i'm willing to support her that's for sure i say keep it keep it i think it yeah because if you read down even in the seconds you know about recognizing our duties it all goes together with that all right now keep it now keep it with the period after students or keep the whole second sentence or keep the whole thing which are we talking about here well me personally i believe just keep the whole thing because we would hope that they have a sincere desire

065we can't enforce that but you're assuming if you're in this position you do have that or you would hope that they have that desire so i mean that should just be common sense of why we are here because of that reason and then the rest of it i mean again it should be a known factor that is why we are here that's why we're making decisions for the best interest and to keep the other noise out i mean so to me this is just a common sense line that's how i feel about this period so can you vote on one or two or both so do we want all of it or part of it or none of it second sentence for me delete the first delete the first second sentence only miss miss fine

066i think i made myself clear deleting okay so i have to just go back through this again so make sure everybody because we all have different opinions as the states here and then miss morgan i apologize i'm asking you again no i i go with whatever the board desires would it make people feel better if you changed must to should no no okay okay and then mr givenelli you wanted the second sentence i just i thought what our job is to do what's best for students period that's i mean i was just i mean people are going to make it political if they want to regardless if it's there or not and personal because that's how people are yes and miss fisher sorry again yeah i say keep the second sentence and i kind of

067like miss patrick's suggestion to change must to should to make it a little more palatable but i like it so this the decision must decisions should be based on the best interest of students period no decision board members should have a sincere desire that's the first sentence oh okay suggestions you put should have ever had the must the question i'm still i'm i'm maybe the board chair it's better than determining the consensus but i'm still not sure whether the first sentence is going to be included in the policy or not okay so if we have if we continue if we keep the full sentence and change the board members should have miss fisher are you for the whole thing and i still say delete that part and keep decisions the second sentence the second sentence

068ending at students no and not on political or personal interest okay second sentence i'm just getting to a second sentence i i mean i can live with the first i just want to make sure there's no second sentence with the change to should i can live with it mr vanello you wanted second sentence and did that students or are you okay with the second sentence period i'm fine with what the board design decides i mean i think yes i am i'm comfortable with the entire sentence second sentence i know miss vaughn said take it out and then miss morgan said whatever and this is a long conversation on one on one sentence so i am going to say that the second sentence we will keep in there okay sounds like based on from what i've

069heard here with the exception of miss simbon this one i have an additional comment about this whole page maybe it's a little tongue-in-cheek but i'm going to say taking a look at members of the board shall strive to fulfill the following obligations this one's going to be really hard considering the political climate students are not unreasonably denied access to diverse points of view i find that board members the way that word unreasonably not unreasonably denied that is one unless the legislature tells us so the legislature and i will rest my statement right there what is unreasonable we will be determined by the majority of this board on an issue by issue basis well it's been an issue it's it's it's been a huge issue and we try to present because it's the best interest of

070the students diverse points of view and that's been quashed somewhat by some people and also even the one above it number two restrained from independent action in pursuit of learning it's in there i'm a short timer i'm lame duck on this board but from now until november i feel like this is this is something very difficult it is to look at in light of what's happening from our tallahassee government i suggest again remind the board again that these are the standards which are prescribed for teachers under the professional code of conduct and that's what they're bound by those definitions what constitutes reasonable or that's that's going to be determined by the board when they vote on a particular issue which affects those interests and there will be differences there's no question about that has changed

071there will be differences there is not going to be unanimity in those points i just hope that no teachers are crucified over presenting diverse points of view in their classroom and i haven't been fired and because i just had to make a comment on it's fine miss the prieburno has a comment the only thing i was going to say exactly what mr young stated is that this is word for word what is in the statute there's no summarization there's no change in the language this is word for word what is in this administrative code section and i think he already had addressed that earlier when ms gittins was speaking regarding that so thank you mr fisher just for clarification attorney bruno so members of the board shall strive to fulfill the following obligations and then

072all of those are in the code in the statute so where you have that option that's not in the code it's the rest of it that's in the code in other words number two right but by adopting this the board is saying we are willing to be held at the same standards that teachers are held to yes and so those adverbs are all in there unreasonably intentionally those are all in the statute that's specific from amongst so can we then since it's in a statute or something somewhere and reference it there because foreign code 6a so just that's reference already outlines the following ethical code and does that take into account this is kind of to to our attorney as well the paris bill of rights and the new you know things that are coming

073into play and i just think we need to have it front and center this is statute and this is what we're doing so the florida code 6a dash 10.081 is the code of professional conduct for teachers right everything that is listed in this policy is it with the exception all the way until you get to end of option one is directly from that code word for word it's not it's not verbatim there are some sections that don't make sense and they're not verbatim okay but no i'm not arguing like a1 for example as i read it made no sense and as i pull up the principles of professional conduct it has been paraphrased so i think that's what i was saying let me let me look let me first look at what mrs patricka is

074referencing i was i was specifically looking for the unreasonably and that is in the statute but let's look at what a1 a1 says shall make reasonable effort to protect the student from conditions harmful to learning and or to the student's mental or physical health and or safety so what does the policy say and or safety is protected as well that is protected as well makes no sense and it's not part of the principles of professional conduct so may i suggest that whatever we have is directly what's up what it says so we don't have to worry about yeah so we don't have to go back and explain why we did this and they said that so the statute specifically says a1 shall make reasonable effort to protect the student from conditions harmful to learning and

075or to the student's mental and or physical health and or safety then that's what we should say period quotes i agree with that italics whatever you want to do but that's what it's that's what the law says that's the only thing that's going to protect us so what it certainly says in the policy in the bylaws that you're looking at is a1 students are protected from conditions harmful to learning and or to the students mental and or physical health and or safety is protected as well so i guess it is protected as well as the difference correct that's redundant yeah it just doesn't make any sense as you read it makes no sense yeah it definitely needs to coincide with the laws okay any other conversation on this i'm sorry mr young what next next

076would be the next sec next to discuss in this particular section is gifts down down the page further and under gifts there are options i have a question before all right yeah okay go ahead ms before that if i could get to 12 which is under c obligations to the profession of education requires paragraph 12. does this paragraph mean that the way i read it is that board members or officials and staff have to report arrests but only board members have to report convictions that's the way it reads and is that what we want it to say is do do we are we automatically notified of staff convictions should we require self-reporting of a conviction should that be in here is this just about board members and if it is just about board members why

077would we be including district staff member administrator or official when you say official i think you're talking about the board or the superintendent i don't know i'm asking the board i just i read it and it left staff out of convictions and i didn't know if that's what the board wanted to do is this still in standards of ethics because i'm lost yes section c obligation to the profession of education requires section c has subsections under it i'm on subsection 12. okay got it so mr roberto this number 12 on here that is comes right out of there as well the law yeah this is under subsection c13 can we add that reference please at that point what would you like to add miss kittens no i'm just saying that if 12 is directly out

078of the law then add the efforts let me let me just look and i'm sure amanda's looking as well because this talks about the self-report any conviction finding of guilt etc and then there's another statute that discusses mandatory disclosure and we also have it in our board policy 1.28 about mandatory disclosure so let me just double check and see what else is out there now we have a good time for a five minute break now remember 68-10.081 is for teachers so we're applying it to the board i'm so sorry could you please repeat that again the original statute code is 68-10.081 is for teachers that we are applying to the board to the language about the board obviously was added because it's being applied to the board not to the director so then the the

079way to fix it might be to just take out the district staff member administrator part at the beginning since that already applies to teachers that's what i'm hearing you say that already applies to staff members they have to report an arrest and they have to report a conviction so to make this sent this paragraph consistent just make it apply only to the board since it already applies to staff through another section so part of the reason that this is includes district staff and administrators is because when you read what this is the board is to do what is necessary and appropriate so that you're wanting to make sure that your staff members and administrators maintain honesty in all of these things you want to make sure that they are reporting and self-reporting and doing all

080that so that is why i believe in c it has become more inclusive here of staff and administrators as well i mean as a board you want to hold yourselves to these but you also are the body that holds the staff and administrators responsible for complying with these obligations as well man yes go ahead miss kittens okay so i think the part of the query here is here does the statute say as determined by the district is that an addition and therefore should we come up with what our determination is i mean are we as a board going to agree with the 48 hours appropriate and if that's the case then we don't need as determined by the district it's kind of leaving it and saying okay if you know have a car accident it's

081you can have you know 48 hours if you do something else it's going to be you know a week so i think to make it clear and if it's concise with what it says to take out as determined by the district the appropriate authorities are who is determined by the district right so it's not 48 hours 48 hours is mandated by the florida administration it is you're gonna determine whether that self-report is made to the assistant superintendent for human resources or who who is the appropriate authority that person so if we're setting policy at this point should we not say include who that is at this point rather than when something comes up then we have to decide does everybody understand what i'm saying well that would be the superintendent to decide who that person

082is that's not yeah it would be superintendent or destiny maybe because so let's just make it clear that too because the district is kind of have we defined who the district is it us you could you could delete the parenthetical parent parenthesis right as determined by the superintendent right correct and i will tell you that the as determined by the district is directly from the florida administrative code as well that is there then the parens within the florida administrative code which is here i mean well and i think that i think that would help us out a lot too so if we know that this is coming directly out of that there really needs not to be any conversation because we want to make sure that we're adhering to what the law is and that

083way it will make it so much easier for us going forward with the rest of these how does that sound no i completely agree i mean this is why we have i hired neola okay we could have done this long time ago otherwise yes just going through this i'm like okay wait a second we need to just stop that miss skittens and then mr young because i know there's another option too here as well okay yeah that and in fact that was my question at the top we are asked select option one or two option one has all of the details to it option two is from what my understanding is that we write our own or yes okay so i'm i would like to say then the reason option one is the most viable

084is that we've determined it is the law yes so therefore option two becomes moot i would read okay perfect i second that i third we got a fourth in it okay so we are now on option end of option two a mandatory training and i believe someone mentioned gifts okay gifts option a1 choose this option if you want to allow board members to accept gifts yeah what is the statutory limit fifty dollars again if it's in the law we don't have a choice well you have a choice that you could not accept gifts just prohibit them so there's that's the choice you either allow them and you set the limit and if you set it at 50 you can set it there but you always also can set it at 25 or 10. but see

085the only if i may the only thing about adding caveats to the law it creates more issues because if somebody gives me a box of candy and if it's from walgreens or from norman love you know i'm not going to you know you got an issue so i think to keep it simple we just say 50 and that's it i believe that we need to stay with the statute ladies statute one gift statute stick to that yeah yeah statue okay that should take care of that perfect thank you okay is there anyone else next another under bylaws in the zero section zero what zero one next number the next one i have a question on is zero one three one but there would be questions before that one three one why are we jumping around

086rather than just we're going we're jumping forward and this if we go to 1-3-1 the assumption is that there are no questions between zero one two four and zero one three one if there are questions okay and i will take them in order i get two gotcha so if we may then go ahead and move to one three one correct place legislative policy making please and thank you mr patricka so the third full paragraph beginning the board may determine policy talks about state law it talks about the state board of education but it doesn't talk about federal law should we have a reference in there to federal law obviously the state laws the state board of education collective bargaining agreements all of those prevail over policy but the same is true for federal law correct

087correct no harm in putting federal law in there i wouldn't think okay does anybody have any comments regarding that no i'm sorry my next question is on the next page that's one that okay what i'll touch on what's it i think okay miss patrick what was that please i was just gonna say my next questions are on the next page okay of that same policy all right okay go ahead please if i may direct a question to attorney debris bruno can you just go through for me so i'm clear in my head the statutory required timeline for rulemaking you have to you have your first reading and then you have your second reading it's a 28 day process so basically what we normally do we'll have a notice that goes out that will say on

088such and such date two weeks from that initial notice saying we're going to have our first reading and that's a briefing and there'll be a briefing and then 14 days later we'll have the actual second reading which will be the public hearing okay and that's the action meeting where we have a public hearing so the public is given two opportunities to comment one at the briefing and two at the action meeting and typically like today we're gonna have a workshop too so i know that there was concern i heard concern from at least one constituent that we weren't giving the public enough time to comment on these policies but this really is a place for us to have a conversation you'll make changes bring them to us and then we'll open it up to the

089public for comment through the rulemaking process and this is just your work session now remember these neola policies most of them are not going to be adopted formally until may 2023 right so we're going to be going through all the policies public will have plenty of opportunity to make comments give suggestions what have you and then april will be our first reading sometime in april at the end of april should be our first reading and then our second reading in may so that being said why is paragraph being necessary when it's all i mean it's statutorily prescribed right and you could argue that any person is going to be affected by any policy change revision creation any of that sure where you want she's on page two of the any person who is affected by

090a proposed policy policy revision or repeal of a policy may within 21 days following notice of the proposal to adopt file a written request with the board for a hearing we're already having a hearing right isn't that what the action meeting is it's a hearing on the proposed policy you're looking at adopting paul let me let me just review it because i wasn't following where you were so let me just take a look this is under challenge to propose policy adopting policies paragraph b we have we have a clarification i hope it's a clarification so that provision actually applies to a formal hearing on a rule challenge if somebody is going to challenge it so that doesn't that doesn't relate to you could maybe add formal hearing if that would be a clarify not a

091meeting because it's not the same thing as your public hearings at your school yeah i'm gonna say hearing is different it doesn't happen very often and that's why it can be a little bit confusing but i'm not sure that i've experienced that so i don't know what that process is okay miss she had a question regarding this yeah that kind of takes me back down the rabbit hole i was in before where i said where and you're probably going to say bylaws but where is it stated what the attorney said so people can see this is our process we do this and this and this so in other words when somebody like miss patricka mentioned brings up that question we can refer them to policy such and such or bylaws such and such and here's

092the way we do it that's what i think people can't like put their hands on we can say this is our policy where can we refer them that it's right there mr priebera do you have any comments regarding that this is coming from florida statute 120.54 the rulemaking process and i believe that it's referenced in the actual policy as well they're speaking about the one above the rule making the rulemaking record it's the b right for the hearings okay oh you're talking about the clarification in terms of the challenge yes that's what exists they're on that one you can clarify that okay i just i don't know i kind of wish that there was some place that was simple and easy to get to that the things that would refer to the public would be

093right there well i think with with we have so as you see we have so many rules regulations policies it is hard to to make sure you have every single detail so if we understand that it is based on statutes and laws i think that is should be sufficient enough because it's going to be hard for us to go take these hearings and attach it to policy this that i don't know and i understand what you're saying but i'm saying okay let let our history and experiences be our guide what have been the main issues with the public what are the main things that they have confusion about and if it's when they speak how they speak where they speak something that simple i don't know i just still feel that they're not gonna go

094through and scroll through all of this is it somewhere that we can have it okay thank you and else everything on here the state like the florida statue and it has the numbers are attached to every single one of these pages i know that but that's not what i'm saying i know what you're asking for what we can do with that section on misskins and it still will be in that section because that's where it falls this is all about rulemaking we can add additional language from the statute that makes it clear that this is for individuals who have concerns or are challenging the policy that within 21 days we can go ahead they have a right to advise the board and then the board will have the hearing so we can clarify that and

095use some language from the statute that addresses that and then if you look down scroll down at the end of this section is a reference to the statute right that all of those sections come from 120.54 right correct i i get that and i and i understand i'm just saying that the average person that's coming to a meeting or that's going to question something like that we do i don't know that they're going to scroll through here and figure out which one of these six items is the item that they need when they're standing at the podium to say we need to do this and and i know it sounds like extra work but just if there were something simplistic i'm not sure i understand what can be more simple and if you go down

096for a section 120.54 florida statutes is where you'll find the authority where you'll find this language and that's as simple as you can get okay for example under challenge to propose policy if under that it just had bullet points that the process is we you know we meet once to do this two two times just thanks i think it answers their questions before we get into the situation we wouldn't get the questions from the public if they understood this is the first reading where would they know that's my question miss fisher and then the miss patricka please so these are bored bylaws and then if a citizen wants to challenge something we will offer assistance like we normally do if they bring something up at the podium so i don't know that we need to

097complicate our board bible it's by putting information in that's not for the board that's just my opinion but then if and if it's this is for us then where do we put the information for the public that's simple to the statutes so yes but i'm going to go and miss if i may submit if a member of the public wants to know what is the process for adopting policies or what is the process if i disagree and i'm affected by this policy what do i do this is the process it wouldn't be anyplace else because this is the process that talks about rulemaking and creation of policies and i'm talking about as simplistically as stating we have a workshop to talk about it then so many days later we do this and so many days

098later we do this and at this point the public can talk and at this point the public does it that's all i'm talking about something that simple so they know even when they can come to speak about it or when they can challenge it seems to me though that might be a more of a process or procedure document that you put in place right and so i agree this is your bylaw and this tracks what is in the statute and actually is more somewhat more clear written by lawyers than what is in the statute but it tracks exactly what's in there i think if you try to go with more language it's going to become more cumbersome and confusing so i think what you're looking for is a process document process and that's not necessarily

099what this is meant to be this is okay your governance how you follow the statute to make rules and make policy and thank you for that and yes that's what i'm looking at so to make sure that we put it down somewhere that we review this for a process document on how do we do what we're doing amanda let me ask you a question at the bottom where it says public input and access to policies can we do you think it would be okay to put something that the board would have a first reading during a briefing and the board would have a second reading during an action meeting and public comment will be entertained because we have that in the other policies about when public comment will occur thank you that is a little

100confused as to where you are now then she's on three she's on page three of that or the very bottom public input and access to policies is that correct yes yes at the very end and then it has all your legal all the statutes that are adhered to in this first portion right here so if we just say that you know public comment will be entertained during the pre-the first reading and the second reading put that at the bottom there when you go to advertise that these policies are going to go through the process you can put some of this in your advertisement that there's going to be a 28-day period where they will have the opportunity to review the policies and then come to the public hearing so we when that section is in

101there as well in terms of the notices so that's in the same policy can you repeat what you would like me to add here so i can add it in i apologize i wasn't there with you with this in mentally so at the very bottom where it says public input and access to policies drafting a sentence that basically says that there will be a first reading and a second reading and the public will be able to comment during those those readings and we can fix the language but that's my thought okay miss patricka so i'm confused by the section adopting policies i continue to be confused by paragraph b and if i'm confused i can't support the policy so the reason why i asked attorney japri bruno what our process was for adopting policies is

102because that's not reflected in this document nowhere in here does it tell us what you just said which is we have a briefing and then 14. the 28 days is listed in d but 21 days is referenced in other paragraphs so i don't i don't know what b references i don't know what it refers to i've never had that experience on the board i don't know how it differs from a board taking action in paragraph d i'm i'm confused okay so we're on page one at the bottom of and two at the bottom of page one page two yes maybe we could do something because the first part is the adopting policies maybe removing the hearings and putting that as a separate section under challenge yes and with that also the rule-making record because rulemaking

103record references 21 days and this is the first time i've ever seen 21 days with regard to rulemaking i've always known it to be 28 days so i'm that therein lies my confusion i'm not and if i don't understand the public's not going to understand it to ms gittin's point i get that they can read the statute but at the same time i don't i don't understand it so should i read the statute just to be clear let me just tell you what specifically the statute says so we're all on the same page i think if we move that will alleviate the concern that you have missed patricka the statute basically says in subsection c under hearings if the intended action concerns any rule other than one relating exclusively to procedure or practice the agency

104shall on the request of any affected person received within 21 days after the date of publication of the notice of attendant agency action give affected persons an opportunity to present evidence and argument on all issues under consideration and so how does that differ from what we already do with two public readings so this is different this is almost like a different process if the person has an issue with the particular policy that it affects them they have 21 days to advise the board that this particular policy affects me in this way and then the board has a hearing where this person can come in and say this is how this policy is affecting me versus the first and second reading which is really to give the public the opportunity to have notice know what's in

105the policy and come in and just speak upon the policy miss fisher well and then at the time we have the public hearing that's when they would issue their challenge or to say that they have a problem with it and that's when in my experience that has never happened but clarity this is a formal hearing where someone would actually present evidence and show how the rule a specific rule or policy that you're adopting not the entire collection i'm coming forth with a complaint if you will so it's like due process exactly so this is the formal hearing about one issue where one person or their their attorney or whomever presents evidence about why they're making a formal challenge about one specific document so i think that if we just take it out and make it

106separate and then if i can read it again after you've done that maybe it'll make sense because i'm still not clear man one is just making a general public statement on the policy this is the form because there's two things in this there's processes in the statute so one is basically saying you have the first reading you can come in take a look tell me what you think about the policy you have your second reading come in tell me what you think about the policy but as amanda was saying this one is when somebody feels like the policy is actually aggrieving them they come into in front of the board and say here's the evidence that i have to explain how this policy is actually impacting me not just my personal opinion on whether or

107not you should adopt it but this is how it's actually impacting me personally and i have to prove that too yeah speak to that yeah i'm going to i'm going to ask miss kittens if you're like okay i have miss fisher and then i'm going to come back to you okay okay so my point in reading this you've got a section on adopting policy and you've got a section on challenging policy i think we need to take those two and differentiate the first one adopting would say we do this reading this reading we do this we do this and then refer to if there is a challenge then that's the section you read and i think that's for the confusion because you've got part of the challenge in the adopting so separating the two and

108that's what you both are saying the same but part of that is because it tracks the statute in that way the this is part of the adoption process is allowing for those formal hearings well then don't separate adopting and challenging just put it all in one okay can we make sure that we're called upon please sorry no yeah go ahead mr prueberno and then mrs fisher please i think that's what we were saying earlier it does it tracks the statute but for clarity's sake we can we can fix that language a little bit just to make sure that it's clear for the public to understand okay again for clarification it was my understanding that's why we have public hearing as part of our process in the policy adoption and that at that time the public

109can indicate that they have an issue with the policy and then schedule their hearing so they can show their proof on how it is egregious to them i mean that was my impression about why we have that specially designated public hearing before the adoption of the policy my understanding as well mistaken miss patricka so is the hearing like when we sit in like a quasi-judicial role and it's a separate hearing and there's no three-minute time limitation and all of that all right okay that's again we i'm reading literally in this instance i'm reading this as someone who knows nothing about it because we've never had one of those when i was on the board so therein lies the computer but then again we are when we're speaking on all these this is pertaining to what

110the law and the statutes correct okay thank you so can we move on to the next miss morgan please yeah i just have a very simple question under notices b advance notice to organizations representing persons what does that mean and that's on page two yeah it's under notices b says by mail to persons who have requested advance notice which i understand and to organizations representing persons affected by the policy and i read that as oh yeah we have an obligation to identify what organizations in lee county may be affected by a policy and we have an obligation to inform them and i'm not aware that we do that and i don't know how we would do it so i'm just asking for clarification what does that mean or what does that ask us to do

111mr prairie bruno do you know what that is that is also taken from the statute and it's exactly what miss morgan has stated that by mailing to persons or to organizations this is something that i discussed with one of our staff members just the other day in terms of our obligations to notify different organizations that may be affected by a policy i need a little bit more time to review that and see what other districts are doing because this is something that would be new to us but it is statutory okay because yeah how do you recognize who those organizations are and who will be affected by that versus putting it all out there too to the entire public because now we're picking and choosing and trying to figure out who they are miss fisher

112and then mr trigger and what's the date of that statue oh i'll have to go back and look at the statute i don't know exactly when this language was added into the statute but it is currently and there i have to do some research to find out the history on it thank you ms patricka so mail is referenced throughout these policies not just here but you bring it up in b and it's actually a question i have written down does mail include email there may not have been email when this was written just saying from a reasonable legal perspective can we say that our intention in passing this policy is mail includes email i think i think they'll have to be very careful with that definition because there's sometimes where from a legal standpoint it

113must be mail and sometimes that emails may satisfy so we'll have to look into that so you'll check on that and then bring that back to us regarding that specific b unless ladies do that or mr young is there do they have any reference to this to what what they were just speaking about so in in miss so with the question that miss morgan has brought up to us mr prairie bruno you're going to check that out and let us know what mail means and organization and follow back up with us on that at the next one yes okay thank you okay thank you miss morgan anyone else next so i would be jumping to zero one three one point two there's no questions before that and that's technical corrections wave i'm sorry variances that

114one more times zero one three one zero oh okay sorry three one variance and waivers but what was the number experience of waivers is one three one point two okay so my first question is the general one on the policy and can the board wave its own policy i don't have pages for example we've had an instance and this the reason why i asked the question is because we've done it you know we had an instance where a board member suggested waiving the one hour limit for public comment but that's not provided for in this policy as written so as i read this policy it doesn't appear that the board can waive its own policy by a super majority which is i believe what we do now yes should that be added or is that

115not a practice we want to allow in our policies i keep trying to catch these you can add to this if you have knowledge there are a number of districts that delete this island i'm sorry say that again please a number of districts that delete this bible for what reason it is it is a very legalistic process which i'm not sure i know i don't know of any board that's ever experienced the variances and waivers to requirements of the policies pursuant to this provision if someone wants to do it there is a policy there is a statute which provides for a process but some districts do not include this bylaw in their policy or their violence i'm just making an observation there it's not required that you do so by law what's in there is

116consistent with the law but it is not required that you include this in your violence mr prairie bruno do you have any recommendations on this one i think that what i would like to do is work with neola to compare our current board policy 1.10 which is the policy that would affect that actually discusses not really our variances but when it the board can move forward and waive or suspend a policy and review this proposed policy a little bit more carefully okay is everyone okay with mr preeber and bruno doing that and coming back i'm okay and if you could just discuss paragraph three specifically for clarification i'm not really i don't really know what it means we don't have to go through it now just i don't understand what it means mindy could you

117highlight that one paragraph three please thank you talk about the individual public employee or group of employees is not a person subject to a regulation specific question is why no employees are student groups thereof don't really in the moment that question made sense to me and maybe it makes sense to you when you read it when you review it with viola why why no employees are students or groups thereof meaning groups of students oh do you know where she's at i have i'm adding a note that has your question but mindy started to say something to me so i missed part of it just why no employees or students or groups of students thank you okay is there anything next and i'm gonna at 11 30 i'm gonna ask for like do a five minute

118break so because i know we have much to go over so at 11 30 if you take a break so everybody can just take a five minute break at 11 30. next question i would be ready to move on to zero one three two and thank you mr patrick i know you are like the bylaw queen so thank you for bringing all these up and the ladies also whoever has any others to to add please let me know i apologize what was that number zero zero one three two and that's executive correct should we have a third section there for the internal auditor yes so we would i would say yes we would include appointment of superintendent legal counsel and appointment of this yes board mrs fisher you said yes yeah mr vanilli miss vaughn

119it's fine yes miss morgan yes but i have another question okay and go ahead miss morgan regarding this not about adding this it's a question about the policy so we'll come back but audit you would be okay with audit and miss kittens yes okay and then i would be so yes add in the audit part of that and then miss morgan you have a question so will you please yeah so my question is regulations procedures and rules are used interchangeably throughout these documents and i don't for example let's see the superintendent shall cause to be distributed in print or electric electronic format and regulations and copies of amendments there too in that paragraph and then two paragraphs later the superintendent may suspend these policies and or procedures so you know i may be nitpicky or

120stupid but i'm what is procedure what is a regulation what is a rule because i had a question in a previous section about the difference between rule and procedure i'm sorry i did not i missed no no no i didn't bring it up but but i'm bringing it up now okay so miss dupree bruno do you want to answer that or mr young or rules are defined under 120. rules and policies may be used synonymously procedures implement rules what about regulations regulations are rules and laws and policies and everything at this patrick on that mr jack i'm not sure what what regulation means in there but it's it talks in terms of copies of bylaws and policies i'm not sure and i'm i'm sure this comes out of statue ms mindy did you have something

121to add to that over there both both this the state and the federal government have regulations concerning different things contracts procurement you know there's a myriad of different regulations both in state and federal it also have to be posted and copies have to be just as they are amended distributed right thank you so regulations typically come out of agencies right so why are we referring to board regulations that was a question that i had earlier and i didn't raise it because i thought i was being picky too but since you raised it i'm happy to be picky with you okay can you say that again regulations typically come out of agencies okay and so why are we using that why are we using it can i mean if you look at the definition it can

122go all the way down to a school board or city council they can implement regulations but when we're saying regulations really the only regulation we can create is a policy so for consistency purposes i'd like to see us refer wherever the word regulation is used with regard to action the board has taken i'd like to see that word replaced with the word policy for consistency purposes and then of course regulations will be referenced with regard to the florida education code you know any any regulations that we are subjected to by any agency of the federal or the state government i think regulation should be used with reference to that but our policies our regulations the board's regulations only come in the form of a policy they would also come in the form of procedures i

123would procedures are typically superintendent-driven but on occasion we do have some procedure in our policies right but in this section here you're talking about what the board shall cause to be distributed and miss miss vaughn i know you had your hand up yeah i'm i'm wondering under these circumstances if this should be included in the glossary of definitions i see that we have ruled there and as used in this document the term rule and policy shall have the same definition so since it's there for rule and linking it to policy perhaps we should add regulation what was the other one was there another one rule policy okay so policy so you know perhaps regulation needs to be included in the glossary so ms vaughn that was where i had my note was in the definition

124section oh but i didn't want you all to be completely put off by my level of pickiness so i didn't raise a bed well it's probably better that you didn't at that point because it makes more sense now and why yeah so to your point the reason this paragraph is speaks to all of those things versus just being able to suspend in case of emergencies your policies and or procedures is because there are certain things that have to be distributed that you can't change as a board which are the regulations okay that being said that being said that the entirety of the document does refer to board roles board regulations and board policies and if we could have some consistency there if the board is behind that i understand what you're saying about this specific

125section but the point ms morgan raised is applicable to many of these policies and i do think that's what we a lot of us have been speaking about today is the consistency of everything so and i know ms kittens has mentioned that multiple times as well is to make sure that we are being consistent and following the laws and miss vaughn that's a great idea to add that to definitions thank you mr for bringing that i don't think that we use regulations elsewhere in this document at least i can't i mean we talk in terms of policies and procedures and violence regulations do exist as was mentioned they're established by governmental agencies so they're not policies which can change and again what this section addresses here and only here to my recollection is we have

126an obligation as a board to provide copies of regulations which affect the way we do business just as we have an obligation to provide policies and procedures so i'm not sure i suppose we could put a definite in the definition section regulations but regulations are very different from policies and procedures but we will work for the consistency as we work through these documents thank you i think that's really important well i believe we all feel that's important let's make it for one person because you've added the appointment of the internal auditor yes as was requested yes please thank you and miss patricka so the paragraph i don't even know we're on page still on page one of you're still in one three two policy zero one three two i wanna say one two three third

127full paragraph from the bottom beginning the superintendent has delegated the authority to take necessary action in circumstances not provide a foreign board policy provided that such action shall be reported to the board at the next meeting following such action i don't know i couldn't come up with a scenario in my head where that would be applicable is this like the board's version of the 10th amendment you know if it's if it's not in here then he or she can do what they deem necessary in the moment and isn't that covered by emergency action where the superintendent can suspend policies so is that paragraph necessary is the question i'd like to ask the board and i'm going to ask mr preeven because i know that i believe this has happened where the superintendent has had to

128take action and then inform us of those actions so that's what we are referring to here correct and stuff like that most all of those actions based on my recollection were something dealing with a an emergency yes that dealt with safety health etc so i'm not sure i have to look at the statute to see if there's i don't know neil if there's a statutory requirement that discusses this particular paragraph i'd have to look into that okay so well just an observation i'm i'm guessing that and we'll look at it to see but i'm guessing that what's taught what's being thought of here is or what's being referenced here is something occurs which is not addressed in policy or procedure and is not an emergency like what i don't know okay so emergency is defined

129specifically in statute what is considered emergency for the superintendent to take action suggested what if it is a saturday and the pipes burst in one of your elementary schools you're going to want the superintendent who's delegated to the principal the authority to get a plumber in there and maybe take some fiscal responsibilities to get that fixed so that on monday you can open the school again but he already has that authority he doesn't need this it is nursing need the sentence for that authority and so i'm uncomfortable including it not having a realistic example of right what this means and i you know i hate to say it out loud in public we are facing a referendum and do we want to be giving sort of car to me this is carp launch exactly yeah

130and i'm not about carplay so is the more comfortable with removing that sentence yes i see a hand oh i'm sorry miss vaughn i'd be interested in what dr vernier's take is on this is it thank you if you're willing yes thank you dr b i'm certainly not the legal expert let me that took this particular section of the clarify policy was in cases of emergency and i was thinking back to some particular things like the example of the pipes bursting you know we would all receive an immediate phone call and email and text communication from me but we may have to operate above a 50 000 threshold in order to get it fixed that's one type of emergency there's also been several i think from your own recollection where there were certain times during

131the particular crisis that the pandemic provided us where there was a need potentially for the superintendent to move more quickly to secure especially in the early days of the pandemic pp and other things so that was how i took this but i think the point of the board holding on to its governance and statutory authority should take preced precedent over the emergency powers of a superintendent okay so thank you dr mayor so that is there seems to be a consensus that would delete that sentence all right that's what it looks like thank you mr young miss retrica and then finally on this contracts and agreements why is board approval or a maximum dollar amount not included in here talks about contracts and agreements shall be for a valid purpose but shouldn't we have something about

132board approval and should is the fifty thousand dollar limit policy there is an extensive group of policies which deal with that question okay with specificity that's a little bit of the difficulty i'm having is not knowing what policies are to come yes yeah so that's going to be addressing the 30 000 view 30 000 foot view here we'll get into the weeds the in the polling to address that question specifically if that's going to be addressed later i'm comfortable with leaving it the way it is but board approval for contracts is necessary and that's not in there so if you're telling me it'll be addressed later i'm i'm happy with that in the finance section you will see in the 6 000 series okay so end up financing okay next number mixed number finance section

133thank you next number go ahead zero one three three my only question here is what about student explosions should those be included in here jr i don't know i i don't i don't know if it falls under this or not that's why i'm asking a question i don't i think it's fine to add expulsions in there there are other policies that will address expulsions but since this includes termination and suspensions promotions etc and there and there's other things that will fall under this as well so ladies what do you think on this one please oh and one three three i think is it 11 30 yeah not yet but can we is that yeah we agree about that one this is and that's why i asked the question i don't know if yeah because this

134is a suspension termination promotion and transfer of personnel i it doesn't mention students at all so that's probably another policy okay yes this is still talking about the quasi-judicial role of the board and if if in yola correct me if i'm wrong but this is the only policy that talks about the quasi-judicial role of the board correct so if so expulsions would fall under there and there's probably some other things as well that will fall under there so we can take a look at that it would not be disciplinary action it would be student expulsion student expulsions only that's the only aspect of disciplinary actions that would be following this quasi-judicial right and student expulsions don't appear on the agenda corrupt the public yeah so in saying that do we want to add expo there's

135a there's another policy that talks about those types of hearings and which ones are open to the public and not even though a student explosion is not open we still have an agenda that we follow for it so it's okay to add that in there it's okay to add so do we want to add it that's my question or leave it leave it as such please and if this is the only policy that talks about the board's quasi-judicial role and we're sitting in a quasi-judicial role when we're hearing student expulsions i think it should be part of the list that's it you got it madam chair yes please may i ask mr young has this come up before in reviews since 2015 not to my knowledge but it is clear that your the board does

136act in a quasi-judicial manner in student expulsion sure okay one okay i do have one question though the board is not acting necessarily in a quasi-judicial role for promotions and transfers right that's yes correct it's matters of dispute if i need to dispute the fact that i did not get a promotion or i was transferred would that not come before the board in that capacity it would probably be a lawsuit wouldn't it yeah normally you could hope that they might come to you first but so normally our board handles student expulsions and terminations specifically but it's possible i wouldn't take it out now that now that you made me think to that next level i wouldn't take it out because you just never know what may happen in the future so mrs fisher go ahead

137please following investigations when there are controversies and disputes we find it comes to us finally yes and we rule on the recommendation you are the final you're the final author right last time that's what this says it identifies that authority okay so we'll go ahead and leave this and then do the addition we added we added that yes okay thank you okay you have another number yeah well zero one four one i've skipped over some of these but i i'm just assuming that you all know that the last option is the one like i'm not going through the obvious ones zero one four one yes i like i haven't i've skipped over all of those up to this point knowing that you guys know the structure of the district and you'll put them correct and

138then my next question is zero one four one point two but it's a long discussion yeah so nothing on zero zero one four one everybody this is pretty much self-explanatory yes okay so we're going to take our break in two minutes for five minutes miss miss kittens you have a two-minute question the 1-4-1 where you're saying you know there's five members and then there's seven is the seven was decided by a previous board correct you need a referendum okay all right so that's why that's all right yep is that referred to in here in any way i go back to we're all not here anymore and you know there's new people do they know that they can referendum one way or the other because otherwise it looks like it's a it's a policy unless it's

139delineated this is well every policy can be changed okay okay yeah you just fill in just put the x in front of the seven members and i think that policy is done okay well i'm going to go ahead and we're going to go ahead and break for five minutes and then we'll return to this great conversation and may i ask the chair yes please the length of time of this meeting this meeting will conclude when i have a question because i yes i have a rule that i never miss lunch i just want to know when my lunch okay well so you can eat what time is your lunch well whenever you say okay actually it looks like this meeting is scheduled until like two one o'clock oh i'm sorry one o'clock i had you

140here to two o'clock so i'm here with you all day five until one o'clock you won't survive until one o'clock i can i can you can't survive okay okay until one o'clock you